Some points: there were only 1000 of this model made. They were hand assembled, as a result to replace that particular fuel cell it had to be specially made. For later models the fuel cells are mass produced and are significantly cheaper( although probably still expensive). So using this one incident is not a good argument.
@@lesp315 agree totally. In Europe hydrogen is produced from Natural gas. I think many people, based on science classes in school, think Hydrogen is produced from water . Maybe in time water would be viable, but the only clean way to get the electricity required is hydro( greenies don't like new dams), or Nuclear.
Sam doesn't even know what a Nexo is and they've been out there for 4 years. He'll probably attempt his next hit piece on the Honda FCX Clarity that they discontinued 4 years ago. "Yeah it's really expensive to replace a Clarity fuel cell Sam" (Ahyulk) 😆
They have home hydrogen refuelors now. You could power them with solar... So what if it took several hours longer to charge a tank of hydrogen with free solar electricity than a home battery storage array... Then you're stuck with the electricity in the home battery array that then still takes hours to transfer to the car as opposed to the hydrogen in the tank that transfers to the car instantly. So much for your "efficiency" propaganda mongering.
They have home hydrogen refuelors now. You could power them with solar... So what if it took several hours longer to charge a tank of hydrogen with free solar electricity than a home battery storage array... Then you're stuck with the electricity in the home battery array that then still takes hours to transfer to the car as opposed to the hydrogen in the tank that transfers to the car instantly. So much for your "efficiency" propaganda mongering.
It *is* happening that manufacturers in *all fields* are not designing their equipment to be replaced... so from costly parts, to intricate/impossible (dis)assembly procedures, Corporations are working hard to ensure that you'll just buy a replacement. :-(
Shows oil & gas and legacy auto pushback is very strong. Only reason to promote Hydrogen for passenger cars is to delay phase out of ICE cars and go to BEV.
100% correct. The problem for all the legacy automakers is that Tesla already exists *manufacturing EVs profitably at scale*. The legacy automakers pivoting to try to convince the average consumer that hydrogen is appropriate for passenger vehicles is not going to fly because of this single reason, which I say as a person who’s not a huge fan of Tesla vehicles or the owner of the company although I do own stock, as they have a compelling business model. Tesla doesn’t have a legacy ICE manufacturing history to drag around like a ball and chain, and unless there’s a *massively* compelling reason for them to consider making a hydrogen car, they’ll be sticking with BEVs. Even as a non-Tesla fan if given the choice between a car running pure hydrogen or a Tesla, I wouldn’t hesitate to buy a Tesla. It’ll be damned near impossible to convince most buyers as well I suspect. The other pure EV manufacturers are just icing on the cake, but they need to be able to get to profitability or they won’t be around in the coming decades of wars for the side of electrification against hydrogenization (I don’t think that’s a real word or it’s a misuse of one but it fits 😜).
@EnriqueThiele Hydrogen is produced as a byproduct of the flash graphene process (Professor James Tour, Rice University). In effect, the hydrogen is free. However, it has to be stored and/or transported. Using H2 for personal transportation is stupid. And there is no way I'd travel in anything H2 powered.
the problem with BEV's is that there isnt enough lithium around the world to support everyone using a BEV as well as your laptop, your phone, and whatever else uses a lithium battery. any replacement for lithium will either be less effective / efficient but cheaper, or more efficient / effective and more expensive, lithium is the best option. but only car batteries tend to get recycled so theres a constant loss of lithium from disposable products and people tossing phones out in the garbage. eventually the price of batteries will go up significantly as the supplies get smaller in area on land reducing the output of mining and batteries will need to be more and more composed of recycled materials which again increases the price of the battery. fuel cells dont have this problem, and once they are mass manufactured replacing them will be much cheaper. and just like how a battery wouldnt last very long (years wise) 20 years ago, once fuel cell technology has been properly adapted for use in cars, they're likely to last significantly longer, or be made to be refurbished a few times before they're completely dead. hydrogen has significant advantages that WILL make it replace batteries eventually, whether we like it or not.
For 100.000 Euro you buy a 1000 Solar Panels to Produce Power for your Electric Vehicle. 1000 Solar Panels Produce 400.000 kWh a year. A kWh is 7 km. Meaning 2.8 Million km Clean Transport.
The reason that the fuel cell of the German owner was that expensive was, that Hyundai only had produced 1000 of these cars, and they were out of production for a long time. Hydrogen develops fast. What do you think how much the batteries of a Tesla Roadster cost? You will be shocked. More than $30K.
production s no problem. Just big loss of energy. before you fill your car you have lost at least 70% of the original energy. And depending how far the hydrogen must be carried, you may have lost 96% of the original energy.
I'm about as likely to want to replace a hydrogen fuel cell on a car as I would be to want to replace on a *_Zeppelin._* In my best *Brooklynese:* *_Fuggedaboutit bub._*
Great video. With what you say about the replacement of the fuel cell, I would not feel safe enough to even refuel the Hydrogen vehicles. You have to be so careful with hydrogen compared to our recharging electrics. Interesting, I could buy a Tesla Plaid S for the price of a hydrogen fuel cell replacement. I wonder what kind of degradation occurs over those first 8 years with Hydrogen vehicles???? Now what is the cost of refueling hydrogen cars compared to gas cars.???? I know it is probably not cheap. Plus I don't think there are that many refueling stations around to do long trips, not sure though. Hydrogen cars are not for me. thanks for the video. Take care.
In the USA about a thousand people die every year being electrocuted. Many people around the world also die in fires caused by lithium batteries. Do you wanna go find me the figures to the amount of people killed in hydrogen explosions? Hint: It's close to ZERO people annually when averaged out. Hmmm, gee... I wonder what is safer?
Hi Sam, Thank you. Some interesting facts, in Australia only two cars are approved for sale, Hyundai, Toyota special order only, the Nexo will cost you$79,000 au. More progress made when considering public transport buses, trials being done in several states, bus life 12-15 years, similar to diesel buses. In 2020 buses sold world wide 5,648, 94% in China. If you look at fueling stations in Aust for cars, good luck. Great posts
The potential for hybrids, hydrogen or otherwise, is huge, for trucks especially. Some new generator designs have copper windings around cylinders instead of a driveshaft.
I've read about fuel cells for a long time and the only thing that fails in them is the PEM aka proton exchange membrane, they're proposing to use a liquid electrolyte to get around this, it will be equivalent to doing a oil change on a engine.
Electric Viking - you used a phrase which "resonated" with me - "completely economically unviable". That is the depiction of the "hydrogen revolution" - and always will be....
I think that the best way to determine if hydrogen are the future... You just place 30-40 hydrogen storage tanks next to the head office of Toyota and all the others making hydrogen cars.
Panasonic has a big Hydrogen tank to power a factory which supplies most of the power during the year. Seems to work just fine. Just google H2 Kibou Field
@@jazzydave8453 It is usually stored in very large cylinders for transportation or just storage, at least in Australia. Hydrogen cylinders can be lined with aluminium which prevents embrittlement. I am not sure, but I imagine that storage vessels would be very expensive. And I'd still live/work nowhere near an H2 facilty. I've spent quite a few hours on a site and that was enough. Mostly the site was unattended and it's easy to see why.
@@mikel4879You could speed the process up, just park a few EV’s next to the tanks 👍 . But this once again highlights we are years away from a workable solution, hydrogen is not viable. These EV’s are an environmental disaster waiting to happen. Contrary to the rhetoric about battery recycling most these EV batteries will end up in landfill in 3rd world countries as it will be cheaper.
I was wondering, if the replacement Hydrogen fuel cell costs twice much as the new vehicle, then it'll be interesting to know why the original vehicle is priced so low. Isn't the original Hydrogen fuel cell of similar quality as the replacement option? It'll be good to get any thoughts on this.
The high pressure tanks are also to be replaced regular. Think of the submarine at the Titanic: Carbon Fiber failed, but this was only half the pressure of the H2 in the pressure tank.
To be clear, the carbon fiber hull of that sub failed in the opposite direction; the high pressure was on the OUTSIDE, which COMPRESSED the carbon fiber. And carbon fiber as a material is known to be strongest when under TENSION, which happens when the higher pressure is INSIDE. That’s an important distinction.
@@jacobcarlson4010 Google: What is the lifespan of a hydrogen tank? Type III tanks have a life cycle of 10 years with a mid-term inspection for safety reasons. --------------------------------------- With a 700 bar bomb between the seats, I would really not dare to use it longer.
Looking to the future, even if the production and infrastructure problems are sorted, the economies of scale only work for materials that can be obtained at a cost effective price. As mentioned in the name, rare earth metals are just that so any increase in scale will push up the price not lower it. This means that fuel cells that use rare earth metals will never be a viable option for the mass market.
Fuel cells are barely using any rare earth metals anymore. They are using Bipolar Plates which are made of carbon and composites. Those last 30k+ cycles vs a battery which is 3-5k cycles. The solid oxide fuel cells are 80k+ cycles. They are also 95% recyclable.
That's what gas cars say to evs. Many gas cars easily go 15-25 years 200 - 500000 miles.with basic maintenance. Honda Toyota etc. I still own a 2007. Also most of the work on evs are not done by the car company but by third party contractors using refurbished or non OEM parts. You will not in most cases go much over 10 years in a EV get ng anywhere near the same as a new item not refurbished battery. Many evs have trouble teaching 100000 miles including Tesla owners have documented this.
@@Brad_Fallon as is the actual video at seems. But by BIG Woke EV Extremist billionaires and their political paid servants and those brainwashed by the global cooling then global warming Climate change extremists whi use that fear to say we need carbon taxes restriction s mandates orders to gain taxes profits on investments to somehow save the earth and uses more polluting lithium destroying and polluting more than gas cars ...its a fact it takes up to 100.000 miles before and EV pollution equals that of a similar size gas car and they are never zero emission as they still use coal oil and gas to charge up and once the battery is dead they fall behing and 95 per cent if t he batteries like with smartphones are e waste and never recycled polluting even more...we are lied to for power control carbon taxes restriction s to movement based on a lie...just like with the vivid lockdown vaccine and booster and mask kies before.
@@Brad_Fallon i know its like with vaccines and mask you could not tell the truth or mention people who died or were hurt from the mandates bans restrictions one size fits all. EV s would be delkung great if they allowed tax credits with gas range e tenders in the frunk. But they were so go us on one solution forced on everyone that companies were told not to do it not tax breaks etc some with hybrids.
On a separate note, if the UAW strike for Ford GM and Stalantis, won’t this help Tesla sales? Need to cover July’s shortfall. My TSLA stock is taking a beating 😂
@@immodsr9348 thanks for the response. I’m in California and was watching the model 3 inventory in late July. Could have bought for $37000 before $9000 of tax incentives. That inventory was cleared out in a few weeks. It was rear wheel drive. They have a few performance ones left. Enjoy all you videos. Keep up the great work. I watch each one.
Add to that that it is MANDATORY to replace Hydrogen fuel TANKS after 10 years, no matter the mileage... Rendering your FCEV a total loss, because these tanks are also kinda expensive... This also means the depreciation of H2 cars is of the charts!, and nobody will ever buy a second hand H2 car, because most likely it will be worth next to nothing after a few years driving. H2 cars never made sense in the past, they still dont right now and never will in the future. With BEV's getting cheaper every day, and the same time batteries and battery management will extend the lifetime of batteries with hundreds of thousands of miles, H2 cars make less and less sense and will disapear completely sooner than later.
Ok but, if you rip out the h2 storage tank and add a Stan Meyer type resonant water splitter, it does make sense. Don't "refill" your tank, produce h2 on demand from water.
I have worked in fuel cell design and testing. A fuel cell large enough to power an automobile would easily cost over $20k when considering the current cost of the catalysts and membranes required. Perhaps the costs could be reduced but truly one should be cautious about the properties of hydrogen. We're not ready for hydrogen vehicles to be driven by the average resident. Perhaps that will be possible in another 20 years.
Man, the H2 fuel cell tech is over 130 years old!! There were fuel cell cars way before Lithium batteries became a thing.. I already read articles about it in popular science magazines as the fuel of the future when I was in high school. I am 57 right now... Nothing early adopting about it, car companies have been working on this for decades.
just because a fuelcell dosent work it not mean they are on the way to blow up. Thats the same kind of disinformation that is around BEV cars. Because some tank stations have blown up it nothing to do with fuel cells. I dont see fuel cells have a future in cars, its still a full BEV just with a smaller battery and a lot of other high tech. Think of maintanaince when they get old and is being repaired be the local small mechanic or DIY.
Of course the price to replace the fuel cell is ridiculous, thats Hyundai's we don't want to support this vehicle price. They probably sold six of them worldwide, why would they have stockpiled any parts, that's just throwing good money after bad. You can't have any sympathy for this owner either. He bought a fuel cell vehicle just to be different. He knew it wasn't practical especially since he lives more than a hundred kilometers from the nearest fueliing station which means that at a minimum he wastes at least 50% of his hydrogen just going to the fueling station and back.
7:35 "They still represent around 0.00000001% of cars sales globally?" so, if ~70 million car sales are done every year, hydrogen fuel cell car sales are .007 cars per year or about 1 car sold every 143 years? That can't be right. I get a figure of about .02% of car sales are hydrogen cars (1/50th of 1%).
Charge your EV on coal and nuclear in winter. That wastes about 70% of it's energy even without preheating your EV batteries. EV range is a big disappointment as well at freezing temperatures. Or do you have a better solution for storing all of the solar surplus until the dark and cold days?
@@SolAce-nw2hfNope, even the fuel cell companies admit that the upper limit for the total fuel cycle efficiency is around 40%. It will never, ever, get better than that. H2 is a dead end for most uses, always has been, always will be.
Ammonia which is hydrogen and nitrogen and it's even more greener. GMOed algae and extracted from our urine (waste). No high pressure issues and no major infrastructure changes 😮. 👍✌️
I haven't watched the whole video yet. Does he mention that a fuel cell lasts 10x longer than a battery? Ballard's fuel cells are good for 30k+ cycles. EVs are 3k unless you only ever charge at home in which case they can get to 5k cycles.
@@pin65371 It really depend on chemistry and the battery management system. Very old chemistry will get 3K cycles. Your electric skate boards and bikes can expect this. New chemistry and good battery management by the car software should push the cycles beyond the life of your car. There are cars out there that have done over 500 000 miles on the original battery. This is new space so we don't know what can be achieved in the real world. On test beds there are lithium iron phosphate, (LFP) that have done 9K cycles with less than 20% degradation. That is a battery that could do over 2 million miles, at least in the warmer climes. There are new chemistrys that have even more promising life and energy density. Enough even to push a light aircraft. Most of commercial hydrogen (98%) comes from natural gas, oil and coal. Unless we can move away from this an make so called "green" hydrogen, that is hydrogen made by electrolysis with the electricity coming from renewable souses, then I believe we have not achieved much.
This is still unsubstantiated. Report is pending on where the fire began. EV fires are more intense, assuming a lithium ion ternary battery is used. Other chemistries this is not true of.
@@SolAce-nw2hfMate, we get it, you hate EVs and love H2 cars (which are just EVs with a small battery and a shitty, inefficient generator). Give it a rest.
One of the biggest reasons some big legacy auto brands like Toyota wants HFCVs to win is because they are in the business to replace parts. Most of their profits come form the lifetime ownership of their cars, not from vehicle sales. HFCVs require more parts and more(double) routine maintenance than ICE vehicles due to the corrosiveness of Hydrogen. Which is why all the hydrogen flow lines have to be lined with platinum. Imagine the cost of replacing those lines every few years or so.
A good reason to avoid these brands, who wants to continuously give them money. And there is another reason Japan is pushing Hydrogen rather than EV's, Japan's only real source of EV batteries etc is China, Japan does NOT want to be reliant on China.
This lining info might not be 100% true as in engineering there are usually more options than one but essentially it is a problem. Hydrogen will brittle many metals (ferrous, nickel and titanium alloys) relatively quickly to the point of failure so you need to use liners.
The reason Japan is avoiding batteries is due to the fact that they are enemies with thr country that controls most of the materials to make batteries.
To all those ev critics saying that a battery replacement is expensive. How much is an engine replacement for an ICE car?? Friends had to and cost them over $7000 AUD
Well, the fuel cell in that car was hand made and not mass produced unit and also no longer available, so they would have to hand build a new one, that is why the cost.
Okay, let’s go into this: The lease price for that vehicle was stated at $599/month (USD) which makes it $21,564 for a 36 month lease. And when leasing a vehicle, the balloon payment is almost always under half the remaining value of the vehicle; which puts the final price of the whole vehicle below $45k. There is no conceivable situation in which the labor to produce a single part increases the cost to more than 200% the price of the whole vehicle.
@@sigor2011: To be clear, the price for all vehicles is fake. And it’s been that way for longer than the both of us together have been alive. But that’s beside the point. The point is that what Hyundai declared that vehicle to be worth, for the purposes of trade and commerce, is already established; and there’s no possible way that manual labor alone justifies the price they quoted for one component of the vehicle in question. Even if we were to assume a perfectly altruistic at-cost-only price where they make exactly zero profit, which we definitely should NOT, then that would point to other costs being involved. But again, companies never price replacement parts at-cost; they always make a profit, one way or another.
Well ... The car already has an electric motor. Take it to one of the companies that convert old VW Beetles, Minis, and Fiat 500s, and see how much it will cost to rip out the fuel cell and hydrogen tank, and install some lithium-ion batteries instead.
Hydrogen not as established mainstream as battery but could be one day and cost should come down eventually, also you don't want everyone driving a battery car because charging will be a nightmare
Ok but, if you rip out the h2 storage tank and add a Stan Meyer type resonant water splitter, it does make sense. Don't "refill" your tank, produce h2 on demand from water.
we can see now that Hydrogen fuel cells is not the answer the ICE cars took 100 years to get just right and maybe they should stop pushing EV's until they get the solid state batteries working
Funny story. Just looked for one,, and a used ix35 hydrogen with 60.000 miles from september 2014 sells for less than 20.000 euros including 21% sales tax here. 6 months warranty (with trusted qa organisation). It would be silly to pay for man hours changing a fuel cell. What would it cost to change the burned out battery of the Porsche Taycan photographed on the Fremantle Highway ?
While hydrogen is a waste of time dead end, I suspect this 100,000 bill here is simply by virtue of owning a virtually unique vehicle where are parts are nearly impossible to source. If hydrogen cars were a more common thing on the roads, then chances are the replacement parts would be somewhat affordable. But honestly, people would have to be nuts to even put themselves in that position.
Back to ICE? it never was ICE. Actually converting it to an EV would be a lot easier, the fuel cell drives an electric motor, just put a battery in it's (and the hydrogen tanks) place.
Toyota almost gives away used Hydrogen cars in California. Cost over $100.00. Electric cars cost $5.00 to fill batteries at home. Good luck finding a Hydrogen station. Like 3 in California.
I do not think so. As production increases the prices will go down for both technologies. Hydrogen is the best for long range with heavy loads. Lithium will be replaced by Sodium as it charges super fast. No need for a 400 mile range on family cars if a needed toilet break can be combined with a 10 minute full charge.
People have been predicting that fuel cell vehicles would become cheaper than EVs and ICE vehicles for a while now. However, it's never going to happen without economies of scale and so far no one has even tried to make a mass production fuel cell car.
Ok but, if you rip out the h2 storage tank and add a Stan Meyer type resonant water splitter, it does make sense. Don't "refill" your tank, produce h2 on demand from water.
@@menotyou1234Stan Meyer was a conman, you cannot split water on demand and get more energy out than was used to split the water. It's basic physics. As a tech editor I have seen dozens of these energy from nowhere concepts, all have been scams based on ignorance or wilful deceit. Only the uneducated fall for such scams...
Rebuilt V8 350 $3500 in USA. Rebuilt my Late father's 2000 Dodge pickup ($17,000) motor, tires, brakes, gas and brake lines, etc... Truck had 83,000 miles on it. Cheaper than new. Replace a hydrogen cell at $100k no thanks. Next vehicle is going to be a Tesla.
I think the reason it's so expensive is due to the company that made their fuel cells no longer being in business and with it being a limited run so there are no parts available. Ballard cut the cost of their fuel cells by 70% with their next gen fuel cells. A fuel cell that would go into a car cost $35k back in 1998. Even if they had only cut that cost down with this latest Gen fuel cell that would put that same fuel cell at $10k.
Way too many zeroes in that percentage, Sam. If there are 81 million cars sold globally every year, then 0.01% of them would be 8,100 annual sales. 0.001% of them would be 810 cars. The true figure is likely between those two numbers. 0.000001% would be less than 1 car sold.
A battery costs about $10k or more. No way that a fuel cell costs five times this amount of money. Furthermore fuel cells are getting better much faster than batteries.
@@SolAce-nw2hf maybe. I hope. But if we look at the invention of the cell phone. There were about 3 iterations of the product till one version stuck. Now we’ve been in a slump for phones for about a decade
@@intelatomtm those phones just keep getting better. It's just that you get used to it and every new version is just marginally better than the previous one. A phone from 8 years ago feels horrible now. The only constant is change.
Ridiculous comparison. How much batteries are made right now? And how much fuel cells? Scale matters. Fuel cell price will drop significantly. Though, putting them into road vehicles isn’t wise anymore: a missed opportunity from 15 years.
Obsolete……air filtration and fuel cells wetting has been improved since then …and possible H2 gas contamination has NOTHING to do with the vehicle….but inexperience…all this can be discussed of course, like the leaf springs improved on the Ford model T around 1912…Just note the fleets of taxis like Hype in Paris are repeated Miraï one and two BUYERS , over 600 of them there, 1000 in Madrid…because durability of the first ones must be good enough,,,,,LOL
Ok but, if you rip out the h2 storage tank and add a Stan Meyer type resonant water splitter, it does make sense. Don't "refill" your tank, produce h2 on demand from water.
Thanks for that ! We all appreciate your input. Wikipedia - "Meyer's claims about his "Water Fuel Cell" and the car that it powered were found to be fraudulent by an Ohio court in 1996.[1][2] " But WTF would I know?
No, they won't, fuel cells have been being made for vehicles for over 30 years and they are still insanely expensive, simply because they use very expensive materials and fuel cell systems are very complex. They will never be as cheap as batteries, and they will always be less than half as efficient as a battery vehicle.
@@ledsalesoz the length of time that they've been making fuel cells is irrelevant. They have never been made in large numbers, so they have never benefited from the economies of scale.
@EnriqueThiele first of all, hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles are also EVs. I do expect battery-based EV's to be dominant for a decade or so. However, as the production of green hydrogen continues to become easier and cheaper, hydrogen fuel cell EVs will be the solution to the problems that battery based EVs can't solve.
@EnriqueThiele China will go nearly fully EV but Europe and the States will never get EV sales above 50%. The vast majority of people see them as impractical. They are not the solution
I think your video is totally out of context, typically and extremely one sided which makes it basically of zero value. I personally believe green Hydrogen is by far the best answer to lower impact power storage and power generation. The issue is how to create the green power initially and no doubt this will be solved in time. The good thing is that this race for green power generation and storage is creating higher efficiencies in many areas, which is a very good thing for all of us.
So this is great news for EVs. Bad news for hydrogen fuel cell fans. I would never EVER buy a hydrogen fuel cell car in my life. Going full EV with only Tesla.
Battery also is one of major component of car! Very expensive Hydrogen fuel cell is just starting, prices & improvement will come as things are develop
You would not say that if you lived in Australia. There are very few 20 + year old cars. EV batteries can be replaced and are getting cheaper and cheaper. I suggest you check some facts instead of guessing. Like ICE cars, there are good and not so good EV's. If you look at battery degradation figures, they are nowhere near as bad as you imagine. Running costs for ICE are way more than EV also.
What is a hydrogen powered car. Well, it is an EV, that instead of plugging into the mains gets its electric from a fuel cell. The hydrogen for the fuel cell, hopefully, is made from electricity. So why not just cut out the middle man!
Don't think it's very fair just taking just one case into consideration. No better than the idiots posting the same Tesla going up in flames in a calendar. There are always going to be outliers that skew the average experience. Is 50k miles the average mileage they will cover , Is €100.000 the normal cost to replace the cell? I don't have the answers, but I think someone making a video like this should.....
Yeah so as of 4 months ago... Hyundai had already changed the name of IX 35 to NEXO 4 YEARS AGO. The Hyundai hydrogen ix35 was more or less a prototype. Are you not aware of the existence of Hyundai Nexo for 4 YEARS? Hyundai hydrogen ix35 is an ancient dinosaur that shouldn't even be for resale... that they no longer make anymore. 2) You can buy a 2022 Hyundai Nexo in Los Angeles for as low as $15,000 now... So yeah that's a little cheaper than a $60,000 ionic 6 battery now isn't it? Not quite eight times more like you were trying to propagandize.
I think Hydrogen will be utilized for the shipping industry and long haul aviation and space travel, for domestic cars its not really feasible, the last time I looked I don’t have any hydrogen fuel at home. Go electric for cars it’s a no brainer.. Peter
And if your home has no parking space, as in many cities? Throwing an extension cord on the sidewalk is illegal here. No choice but to get in line for the neighbourhood charger, like everyone else. No thanks. And I am not moving just to charge an EV that i will drive for only 4000 miles a year.
The only one is space, as the easiest way to transport hydrogen is as a liquid. (hydrogen pressure vessels are way to heavy for a rocket) The space industry normally turn oxygen into liquid by near freezing it, so doing the same for hydrogen is no problem, there just remains the energy density problem, how does liquid hydrogen compare to the other fuels they currently use.
@@paulstubbs7678 Actually, the easiest way to transport it is using gas pipes, just like with natural gas. In the Nederlands, there is a plan to convert the gas network, as natural gas is not seen as the future, and not using that infrastructure anymore is silly. Compression in these pipes is much lower and seasonal storage can be done in large salt cavern, currently in use for natural gas. In cars, the easiest way to store it, is just high compression at 700 bar. That gets you about 400 miles bij refilling 5 kg of hydrogen in something like 5 minutes. Trucks use 350 bar, because space is not an issue, and less compression is cheaper and easier. Compared to fossil fuels, green hydrogen is much better. And currently, industry is using a lot of grey hydrogen based on gas, so getting the green production started on solar surplus makes sense anyway. Production can run for about 8 months per year on solar, also to make sure that the surplus does not (more or less) destroy the grid as more people and businesses get solar panels, with no practical application on a sunny and windy and sunday afternoon.
@@FutureSystem738 That is the problem. Getting an EV that will save near to nothing in emissions and just rusting in a parking space is not very efficient. The CO2 emissions from production can never be balanced. I will just keep my petrol car for now and use it until my mileage increases or something that makes sense for me comes along. My biggest issue with getting a really small EV is the range sometimes needed. That is almost 500 miles, but I really don't want to lug that much dead weight around all year for this.
Howdy, Have you caught up with hydrogen combustion engine concepts (not hydrogen fuel cell). UK heavy industry machinery maker JCB are going this direction for BIG machines (where it’s "completely economically unviable" to implement electric tech). They’re making hydrogen combustion engines in the same block format as diesel engine blocks. Existing vehicles can be converted to hydrogen fuel engine and fuel storage. Here’s Harry’s Garage episode on JCB hydrogen engines… ruclips.net/video/jxtxZY45RMM/видео.html Cheers, PeteQ
problem with hydrogen is it is gas, not liquid in fact it is the lightest molecule in the world natural gas is easier, that is why NGV taxis has been around, conversion is cheaper too, because pressure is lower and they are now thinking ammonia is more suitable since its even less volatile, and it is more viable "greener" than natural gas in the end, all the japanese is trying to do is to create a different market where it does not have to compete with chinese EV, thats the truth, they cant make an EV that cost competitive
The issues with using H2 as a motor fuel are comparable to using petroleum. The motor will still produce pollution in the form of nitrous oxides, and the efficiency falls off a cliff. On average it takes one barrel of oil to extract 14 barrels of oil out of the ground, and out of each barrel extracted, only 12 to 14% of that barrel ends up turning the wheels of the car after one factors in all of the losses due to refining, transportation, and motor losses. This is referred to as the "well to wheel efficiency," and it is about 12 to 14% for petroleum. The one barrel of oil used to pump the 14 barrels of oil out of the ground is usually referred to as "energy returned on investment" (or EROI) of 14 to 1. It takes 5 barrels of oil (or 5 barrels of oil equivalent energy) to produce the equivalent of one barrel of oil in the form of hydrogen, and then only about 25% of that barrel equivalent of H2 actually is used to turn the wheels. So while the "well to wheel efficiency" of H2 is about double that of petroleum, the EROI of making H2 is actually negative at 1 to 5. That is, it takes 5 barrel of petroleum equivalent energy to make 1 barrel of petroleum equivalent energy of hydrogen. This is why H2 will never be a viable energy source, especially since 95% of the H2 manufactured now is made from natural gas. Less CO2 is produced if the natural gas is just burned to make electricity for EVs, since the well to wheel efficiency of EVs from electricity produced from burning natural gas is around 50 to 60%. Ironically the well to wheel efficiency of H2 made from renewables is about the same as that made from natural gas (~25%). EVs using electricity from renewables have a well to wheel efficiency of 75 to 95%.
A hydrogen internal combustion engine car makes less sense than a hydrogen fuel cell car. A lot of the problems with hydrogen FC cars are coming more from the hydrogen than from the fuel cells. With an ICE car, all of those hydrogen problems get worse because ICEs are less efficient than fuel cells, meaning you will need to use more hydrogen. You would need really enormous fuel tanks to get a decent range with a hydrogen ICE car. Considering that 95% of hydrogen is made by reforming natural gas, putting that natural gas in an ICE car without reforming it into hydrogen would be better in almost all aspects compared to using hydrogen. With fuel cells reforming the natural gas into hydrogen makes at least a little sense, because then you can use PEM type fuel cells that might not be able to handle the natural gas.
For those of us with a memory...... We remember that in the early 2000s, electric cars were all but abandoned as an idea as hydrogen was the future. It came to nothing exactly for the reason that it was far too expensive to be practical and not really that environmentally friendly. Interesting to note also that, although water vapour as exhaust sounds great, water vapour has twice the warming effect of co2. Loads more vapour produced from a hydrogen car than co2 from and ice car. So how can this possibly combat warming?
Why? EV's are much more toxic, will burn for days, set other EV's on fire. In contrast, H2 just rises and dissipates when the tank is breached in a Hydrogen car.
@@SolAce-nw2hfthere are videos of hydrogen tanks getting shot at and nothing really happening. People are pretty clueless when it comes to hydrogen and are getting freaked out by channels like this where either Viking either is biased or is also clueless.. either way he ends up sounding a lot like the people that make outrageous claims about evs to freak people out. I work in mining. If these people are this scared of hydrogen they would never survive a day on a site where the materials that are needed to produce evs come from. Hydrogen is the least of my worries. Lol
What a big fat lie. EV batteries often dont even last as long as the ev. I had a 30 year old car with 300k miles that got 30mpg and it was not an exception. I have a car now thats 67 years old and well over 100k miles that still runs and drives.
Think once, out there is no serious hydrogen solution that works for cars especially ICE concepts but also fuel cells. But heat and climatize your house with at least 25 square meters of PV can already produce as much hydrogen that by June or July you have enough for winter. There is a device and concept from HPS Home Power Solutions AG called PICEA that does the job for 60‘ to 90‘000 USD all with parts from stock. For the rest of the year you may sell excess energy, make electric power for your EV, fill batteries etc. In cars however this is and was from the beginning just stupid although technically feasible. However hydrogen in small mobility solution is from many considerations nonsense. I see applications for ships producing hydrogen on board by different also available rather cheap technology. Even with airplanes there are however many questions open. So also I think if physics can solve what Stan Meyer once promised even then I do not think that hydrogen would be for personal transportation as water it too precious in futur society.
Nobody replaces a battery pack for longer than the entire life of an internal combustion engine vehicle.... Suggest you talk to your local Hyundai dealer - loads of warranty replacement battery packs. Which means there are loads that will fail just out of warranty. Source - mechanic BIL at a Hyundai dealership. But hydrogen is even suckier. Hard to see the supply infrastructure ever catching up.
Some points: there were only 1000 of this model made. They were hand assembled, as a result to replace that particular fuel cell it had to be specially made. For later models the fuel cells are mass produced and are significantly cheaper( although probably still expensive). So using this one incident is not a good argument.
That's not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is efficiency. It's below 50%. Hydrogen cars are the most polluting things around.
@@lesp315 agree totally. In Europe hydrogen is produced from Natural gas. I think many people, based on science classes in school, think Hydrogen is produced from water . Maybe in time water would be viable, but the only clean way to get the electricity required is hydro( greenies don't like new dams), or Nuclear.
Sam doesn't even know what a Nexo is and they've been out there for 4 years. He'll probably attempt his next hit piece on the Honda FCX Clarity that they discontinued 4 years ago. "Yeah it's really expensive to replace a Clarity fuel cell Sam" (Ahyulk) 😆
They have home hydrogen refuelors now. You could power them with solar... So what if it took several hours longer to charge a tank of hydrogen with free solar electricity than a home battery storage array... Then you're stuck with the electricity in the home battery array that then still takes hours to transfer to the car as opposed to the hydrogen in the tank that transfers to the car instantly. So much for your "efficiency" propaganda mongering.
They have home hydrogen refuelors now. You could power them with solar... So what if it took several hours longer to charge a tank of hydrogen with free solar electricity than a home battery storage array... Then you're stuck with the electricity in the home battery array that then still takes hours to transfer to the car as opposed to the hydrogen in the tank that transfers to the car instantly. So much for your "efficiency" propaganda mongering.
It *is* happening that manufacturers in *all fields* are not designing their equipment to be replaced... so from costly parts, to intricate/impossible (dis)assembly procedures, Corporations are working hard to ensure that you'll just buy a replacement. :-(
... especially western companies are known for proprietarianism and planned obsolescence.
They are pissed off that China doesn't follow that path.
Shows oil & gas and legacy auto pushback is very strong. Only reason to promote Hydrogen for passenger cars is to delay phase out of ICE cars and go to BEV.
bruce9 • Correct.
100% correct. The problem for all the legacy automakers is that Tesla already exists *manufacturing EVs profitably at scale*. The legacy automakers pivoting to try to convince the average consumer that hydrogen is appropriate for passenger vehicles is not going to fly because of this single reason, which I say as a person who’s not a huge fan of Tesla vehicles or the owner of the company although I do own stock, as they have a compelling business model. Tesla doesn’t have a legacy ICE manufacturing history to drag around like a ball and chain, and unless there’s a *massively* compelling reason for them to consider making a hydrogen car, they’ll be sticking with BEVs. Even as a non-Tesla fan if given the choice between a car running pure hydrogen or a Tesla, I wouldn’t hesitate to buy a Tesla. It’ll be damned near impossible to convince most buyers as well I suspect. The other pure EV manufacturers are just icing on the cake, but they need to be able to get to profitability or they won’t be around in the coming decades of wars for the side of electrification against hydrogenization (I don’t think that’s a real word or it’s a misuse of one but it fits 😜).
However BS like this does the opposite, makes you want to skip this hydrogen nightmare and get an EV
@EnriqueThiele Hydrogen is produced as a byproduct of the flash graphene process (Professor James Tour, Rice University). In effect, the hydrogen is free. However, it has to be stored and/or transported. Using H2 for personal transportation is stupid. And there is no way I'd travel in anything H2 powered.
the problem with BEV's is that there isnt enough lithium around the world to support everyone using a BEV as well as your laptop, your phone, and whatever else uses a lithium battery.
any replacement for lithium will either be less effective / efficient but cheaper, or more efficient / effective and more expensive, lithium is the best option. but only car batteries tend to get recycled so theres a constant loss of lithium from disposable products and people tossing phones out in the garbage. eventually the price of batteries will go up significantly as the supplies get smaller in area on land reducing the output of mining and batteries will need to be more and more composed of recycled materials which again increases the price of the battery.
fuel cells dont have this problem, and once they are mass manufactured replacing them will be much cheaper. and just like how a battery wouldnt last very long (years wise) 20 years ago, once fuel cell technology has been properly adapted for use in cars, they're likely to last significantly longer, or be made to be refurbished a few times before they're completely dead.
hydrogen has significant advantages that WILL make it replace batteries eventually, whether we like it or not.
For 100.000 Euro you buy a 1000 Solar Panels to Produce Power for your Electric Vehicle. 1000 Solar Panels Produce 400.000 kWh a year. A kWh is 7 km. Meaning 2.8 Million km Clean Transport.
The reason that the fuel cell of the German owner was that expensive was, that Hyundai only had produced 1000 of these cars, and they were out of production for a long time. Hydrogen develops fast.
What do you think how much the batteries of a Tesla Roadster cost? You will be shocked. More than $30K.
It costs that much because the manufacturer doesn't want to repair it, so they quote you a price that is more than a new vehicle, to discourage you.
They want to kill the market, as they don't see any future either.
Yep. That’s it in a nutshell.
The problem is no longer production of hydrogen, but storage is still a nightmare, both after production and on board the vehicle.
production s no problem. Just big loss of energy. before you fill your car you have lost at least 70% of the original energy. And depending how far the hydrogen must be carried, you may have lost 96% of the original energy.
I'm about as likely to want to replace a hydrogen fuel cell on a car as I would be to want to replace on a *_Zeppelin._*
In my best *Brooklynese:* *_Fuggedaboutit bub._*
Great video. With what you say about the replacement of the fuel cell, I would not feel safe enough to even refuel the Hydrogen vehicles. You have to be so careful with hydrogen compared to our recharging electrics. Interesting, I could buy a Tesla Plaid S for the price of a hydrogen fuel cell replacement. I wonder what kind of degradation occurs over those first 8 years with Hydrogen vehicles????
Now what is the cost of refueling hydrogen cars compared to gas cars.???? I know it is probably not cheap. Plus I don't think there are that many refueling stations around to do long trips, not sure though.
Hydrogen cars are not for me. thanks for the video. Take care.
In the USA about a thousand people die every year being electrocuted.
Many people around the world also die in fires caused by lithium batteries.
Do you wanna go find me the figures to the amount of people killed in hydrogen explosions? Hint: It's close to ZERO people annually when averaged out. Hmmm, gee... I wonder what is safer?
Hi Sam,
Thank you.
Some interesting facts, in Australia only two cars are approved for sale, Hyundai, Toyota special order only, the Nexo will cost you$79,000 au.
More progress made when considering public transport buses, trials being done in several states, bus life 12-15 years, similar to diesel buses.
In 2020 buses sold world wide 5,648, 94% in China.
If you look at fueling stations in Aust for cars, good luck.
Great posts
The potential for hybrids, hydrogen or otherwise, is huge, for trucks especially. Some new generator designs have copper windings around cylinders instead of a driveshaft.
I've read about fuel cells for a long time and the only thing that fails in them is the PEM aka proton exchange membrane, they're proposing to use a liquid electrolyte to get around this, it will be equivalent to doing a oil change on a engine.
Electric Viking - you used a phrase which "resonated" with me - "completely economically unviable". That is the depiction of the "hydrogen revolution" - and always will be....
I think that the best way to determine if hydrogen are the future...
You just place 30-40 hydrogen storage tanks next to the head office of Toyota and all the others making hydrogen cars.
geirvinje2 • 😂👍👍
Their offices would be deserted right away, and everybody there would apply to work from home...😂🤣
Hydrogen does not like being encapsulated in tanks it starts'brittling' attacking the structure. It does not like cold conditions
Panasonic has a big Hydrogen tank to power a factory which supplies most of the power during the year. Seems to work just fine.
Just google H2 Kibou Field
@@jazzydave8453 It is usually stored in very large cylinders for transportation or just storage, at least in Australia. Hydrogen cylinders can be lined with aluminium which prevents embrittlement. I am not sure, but I imagine that storage vessels would be very expensive. And I'd still live/work nowhere near an H2 facilty. I've spent quite a few hours on a site and that was enough. Mostly the site was unattended and it's easy to see why.
@@mikel4879You could speed the process up, just park a few EV’s next to the tanks 👍 . But this once again highlights we are years away from a workable solution, hydrogen is not viable. These EV’s are an environmental disaster waiting to happen. Contrary to the rhetoric about battery recycling most these EV batteries will end up in landfill in 3rd world countries as it will be cheaper.
Diesel and petrol will be around for a longtime yet
I was wondering, if the replacement Hydrogen fuel cell costs twice much as the new vehicle, then it'll be interesting to know why the original vehicle is priced so low. Isn't the original Hydrogen fuel cell of similar quality as the replacement option? It'll be good to get any thoughts on this.
It's not the cell cost alone. Labor cost is added.
The high pressure tanks are also to be replaced regular. Think of the submarine at the Titanic: Carbon Fiber failed, but this was only half the pressure of the H2 in the pressure tank.
To be clear, the carbon fiber hull of that sub failed in the opposite direction; the high pressure was on the OUTSIDE, which COMPRESSED the carbon fiber. And carbon fiber as a material is known to be strongest when under TENSION, which happens when the higher pressure is INSIDE. That’s an important distinction.
@@jacobcarlson4010 Google: What is the lifespan of a hydrogen tank?
Type III tanks have a life cycle of 10 years with a mid-term inspection for safety reasons.
---------------------------------------
With a 700 bar bomb between the seats, I would really not dare to use it longer.
Looking to the future, even if the production and infrastructure problems are sorted, the economies of scale only work for materials that can be obtained at a cost effective price. As mentioned in the name, rare earth metals are just that so any increase in scale will push up the price not lower it. This means that fuel cells that use rare earth metals will never be a viable option for the mass market.
Fuel cells are barely using any rare earth metals anymore. They are using Bipolar Plates which are made of carbon and composites. Those last 30k+ cycles vs a battery which is 3-5k cycles. The solid oxide fuel cells are 80k+ cycles. They are also 95% recyclable.
@@pin65371: Source? Because everything I can find on current-gen fuel cells has them using platinum and palladium still.
FYI - Most of the comments here are A.I. generated by Big Oil.
That's what gas cars say to evs.
Many gas cars easily go 15-25 years 200 - 500000 miles.with basic maintenance.
Honda Toyota etc.
I still own a 2007.
Also most of the work on evs are not done by the car company but by third party contractors using refurbished or non OEM parts.
You will not in most cases go much over 10 years in a EV get ng anywhere near the same as a new item not refurbished battery.
Many evs have trouble teaching 100000 miles including Tesla owners have documented this.
FYI - Most of the comments here are A.I. generated by Big Oil.
@@Brad_Fallon as is the actual video at seems.
But by BIG Woke EV Extremist billionaires and their political paid servants and those brainwashed by the global cooling then global warming Climate change extremists whi use that fear to say we need carbon taxes restriction s mandates orders to gain taxes profits on investments to somehow save the earth and uses more polluting lithium destroying and polluting more than gas cars ...its a fact it takes up to 100.000 miles before and EV pollution equals that of a similar size gas car and they are never zero emission as they still use coal oil and gas to charge up and once the battery is dead they fall behing and 95 per cent if t he batteries like with smartphones are e waste and never recycled polluting even more...we are lied to for power control carbon taxes restriction s to movement based on a lie...just like with the vivid lockdown vaccine and booster and mask kies before.
@@Tigerex966 Yes, and notice, my comment was deleted. No detailed discussion of hydrogen can be allowed.
@@Brad_Fallon i know its like with vaccines and mask you could not tell the truth or mention people who died or were hurt from the mandates bans restrictions one size fits all.
EV s would be delkung great if they allowed tax credits with gas range e tenders in the frunk.
But they were so go us on one solution forced on everyone that companies were told not to do it not tax breaks etc some with hybrids.
Fyi: Auto Bild is owned by Springer SE, public stock, most mainly owned by KKR one of largest fossil fonds.
On a separate note, if the UAW strike for Ford GM and Stalantis, won’t this help Tesla sales? Need to cover July’s shortfall. My TSLA stock is taking a beating 😂
Not really, cause Tesla already sells everything they make. Might make the cues longer though :)
@@immodsr9348 thanks for the response. I’m in California and was watching the model 3 inventory in late July. Could have bought for $37000 before $9000 of tax incentives. That inventory was cleared out in a few weeks. It was rear wheel drive. They have a few performance ones left. Enjoy all you videos. Keep up the great work. I watch each one.
FYI - Most of the comments here are A.I. generated by Big Oil.
Add to that that it is MANDATORY to replace Hydrogen fuel TANKS after 10 years, no matter the mileage... Rendering your FCEV a total loss, because these tanks are also kinda expensive... This also means the depreciation of H2 cars is of the charts!, and nobody will ever buy a second hand H2 car, because most likely it will be worth next to nothing after a few years driving.
H2 cars never made sense in the past, they still dont right now and never will in the future. With BEV's getting cheaper every day, and the same time batteries and battery management will extend the lifetime of batteries with hundreds of thousands of miles, H2 cars make less and less sense and will disapear completely sooner than later.
Ok but, if you rip out the h2 storage tank and add a Stan Meyer type resonant water splitter, it does make sense. Don't "refill" your tank, produce h2 on demand from water.
@@menotyou1234trolling?
@@casperhansen826Crazy is more like it.
How often do the Hydrogen tanks needs hydrostatic tested?
I have worked in fuel cell design and testing. A fuel cell large enough to power an automobile would easily cost over $20k when considering the current cost of the catalysts and membranes required. Perhaps the costs could be reduced but truly one should be cautious about the properties of hydrogen. We're not ready for hydrogen vehicles to be driven by the average resident. Perhaps that will be possible in another 20 years.
well, that's the risk you take when being an early adopter while technologies are competing: you may bet on the wrong one.
Man, the H2 fuel cell tech is over 130 years old!! There were fuel cell cars way before Lithium batteries became a thing.. I already read articles about it in popular science magazines as the fuel of the future when I was in high school. I am 57 right now... Nothing early adopting about it, car companies have been working on this for decades.
@@MarcoNierop Oh, I did not question that. I meant it in the sense of "going into mainstream / mass production".
just because a fuelcell dosent work it not mean they are on the way to blow up. Thats the same kind of disinformation that is around BEV cars. Because some tank stations have blown up it nothing to do with fuel cells. I dont see fuel cells have a future in cars, its still a full BEV just with a smaller battery and a lot of other high tech. Think of maintanaince when they get old and is being repaired be the local small mechanic or DIY.
Of course the price to replace the fuel cell is ridiculous, thats Hyundai's we don't want to support this vehicle price. They probably sold six of them worldwide, why would they have stockpiled any parts, that's just throwing good money after bad.
You can't have any sympathy for this owner either. He bought a fuel cell vehicle just to be different. He knew it wasn't practical especially since he lives more than a hundred kilometers from the nearest fueliing station which means that at a minimum he wastes at least 50% of his hydrogen just going to the fueling station and back.
7:35 "They still represent around 0.00000001% of cars sales globally?"
so, if ~70 million car sales are done every year, hydrogen fuel cell car sales are .007 cars per year or about 1 car sold every 143 years? That can't be right.
I get a figure of about .02% of car sales are hydrogen cars (1/50th of 1%).
Go hydrogen if you want to waste 66 % energy 😊
Anything to keep ice tards happy and combusting.
Charge your EV on coal and nuclear in winter. That wastes about 70% of it's energy even without preheating your EV batteries.
EV range is a big disappointment as well at freezing temperatures.
Or do you have a better solution for storing all of the solar surplus until the dark and cold days?
At least 66%
@@AdamC5013 only if you ignore innovations.
@@SolAce-nw2hfNope, even the fuel cell companies admit that the upper limit for the total fuel cycle efficiency is around 40%. It will never, ever, get better than that. H2 is a dead end for most uses, always has been, always will be.
Ammonia which is hydrogen and nitrogen and it's even more greener. GMOed algae and extracted from our urine (waste). No high pressure issues and no major infrastructure changes 😮. 👍✌️
I thought that Hyundai had a 10 year 100K warranty at least here in the US it does.
They don't make money on their cars so why not lose a little more?
I haven't watched the whole video yet. Does he mention that a fuel cell lasts 10x longer than a battery? Ballard's fuel cells are good for 30k+ cycles. EVs are 3k unless you only ever charge at home in which case they can get to 5k cycles.
@@pin65371 It really depend on chemistry and the battery management system. Very old chemistry will get 3K cycles. Your electric skate boards and bikes can expect this.
New chemistry and good battery management by the car software should push the cycles beyond the life of your car. There are cars out there that have done over 500 000 miles on the original battery. This is new space so we don't know what can be achieved in the real world. On test beds there are lithium iron phosphate, (LFP) that have done 9K cycles with less than 20% degradation. That is a battery that could do over 2 million miles, at least in the warmer climes. There are new chemistrys that have even more promising life and energy density. Enough even to push a light aircraft.
Most of commercial hydrogen (98%) comes from natural gas, oil and coal. Unless we can move away from this an make so called "green" hydrogen, that is hydrogen made by electrolysis with the electricity coming from renewable souses, then I believe we have not achieved much.
Hyundai Nexo sold better than ever before in 2022
Hydrogen, solid hydrogen is the future. It is cheap and easy to make and cheap and easy to store as a solid! Big Oil is done!
When an EV starts burning, the surrounding cars also burn, like we saw on a boat and at Six Flags in the Netherlands a few weeks ago.
Gas cars catch fire more often and also will burn cars around it.
@@mikenovak5226 Nope. An EV burns a lot intenser.
This is still unsubstantiated. Report is pending on where the fire began. EV fires are more intense, assuming a lithium ion ternary battery is used. Other chemistries this is not true of.
Each Mirai sold looses Toyota US$55k to $110k. Makes Fords $30k per eMach look a bargain. 😂
My company would like to offer the salesman who sold that car a job! He must be the best salesman in the world!
But he didn’t sell the repair?
@@Harrythehun Of course not. Selling a tesla that breaks down in every other way is much more challenging.
@@SolAce-nw2hfMate, we get it, you hate EVs and love H2 cars (which are just EVs with a small battery and a shitty, inefficient generator). Give it a rest.
One of the biggest reasons some big legacy auto brands like Toyota wants HFCVs to win is because they are in the business to replace parts. Most of their profits come form the lifetime ownership of their cars, not from vehicle sales. HFCVs require more parts and more(double) routine maintenance than ICE vehicles due to the corrosiveness of Hydrogen. Which is why all the hydrogen flow lines have to be lined with platinum. Imagine the cost of replacing those lines every few years or so.
Man you need to check your sources of info.
A good reason to avoid these brands, who wants to continuously give them money.
And there is another reason Japan is pushing Hydrogen rather than EV's, Japan's only real source of EV batteries etc is China, Japan does NOT want to be reliant on China.
@@davidrte.664 OP is right, hydrogen is a corrosive. Maybe YOU need to check your sources?
This lining info might not be 100% true as in engineering there are usually more options than one but essentially it is a problem. Hydrogen will brittle many metals (ferrous, nickel and titanium alloys) relatively quickly to the point of failure so you need to use liners.
The reason Japan is avoiding batteries is due to the fact that they are enemies with thr country that controls most of the materials to make batteries.
But they are way better for the planet then polluting and mining pollution by evs.
To all those ev critics saying that a battery replacement is expensive. How much is an engine replacement for an ICE car??
Friends had to and cost them over $7000 AUD
Well, the fuel cell in that car was hand made and not mass produced unit and also no longer available, so they would have to hand build a new one, that is why the cost.
Okay, let’s go into this:
The lease price for that vehicle was stated at $599/month (USD) which makes it $21,564 for a 36 month lease. And when leasing a vehicle, the balloon payment is almost always under half the remaining value of the vehicle; which puts the final price of the whole vehicle below $45k. There is no conceivable situation in which the labor to produce a single part increases the cost to more than 200% the price of the whole vehicle.
@jacobcarlson4010 the price of car was fake. It wad subsidized by the manufacturer. Probably they lost 50k to 100k on each car they sold.
@@sigor2011: To be clear, the price for all vehicles is fake. And it’s been that way for longer than the both of us together have been alive. But that’s beside the point. The point is that what Hyundai declared that vehicle to be worth, for the purposes of trade and commerce, is already established; and there’s no possible way that manual labor alone justifies the price they quoted for one component of the vehicle in question. Even if we were to assume a perfectly altruistic at-cost-only price where they make exactly zero profit, which we definitely should NOT, then that would point to other costs being involved. But again, companies never price replacement parts at-cost; they always make a profit, one way or another.
Anyone who owns a hydrogen car doesn't think.....Full Stop !!! 🤣
Viking, you MONSTER!
Why do governments keep spending MY tax payer dollars on hydrogen vehicles.
Hydrogen = 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😂😂👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎
Well ... The car already has an electric motor. Take it to one of the companies that convert old VW Beetles, Minis, and Fiat 500s, and see how much it will cost to rip out the fuel cell and hydrogen tank, and install some lithium-ion batteries instead.
Hydrogen not as established mainstream as battery but could be one day and cost should come down eventually, also you don't want everyone driving a battery car because charging will be a nightmare
Crazy. Hydrogen is a non starter.
Ok but, if you rip out the h2 storage tank and add a Stan Meyer type resonant water splitter, it does make sense. Don't "refill" your tank, produce h2 on demand from water.
No evidence of that being the case. Hydrogen creation takes more energy to create, than it produces.
we can see now that Hydrogen fuel cells is not the answer the ICE cars took 100 years to get just right and maybe they should stop pushing EV's until they get the solid state batteries working
Funny story. Just looked for one,, and a used ix35 hydrogen with 60.000 miles from september 2014 sells for less than 20.000 euros including 21% sales tax here.
6 months warranty (with trusted qa organisation). It would be silly to pay for man hours changing a fuel cell.
What would it cost to change the burned out battery of the Porsche Taycan photographed on the Fremantle Highway ?
It must be cheaper to convert this car to an electric car! Is that possible, yes, of course.
Sure 🤡👍
How much will it cost him to ‘dispose’ of the car? It’s not like he is going to trade it in .. especially in Germany
Long haul 🚛? Sure. It has its place.
While hydrogen is a waste of time dead end, I suspect this 100,000 bill here is simply by virtue of owning a virtually unique vehicle where are parts are nearly impossible to source. If hydrogen cars were a more common thing on the roads, then chances are the replacement parts would be somewhat affordable. But honestly, people would have to be nuts to even put themselves in that position.
Couldn't he convert his Car back to ICE technology for cheaper? He needs to get a quote from Uncle Rich
Back to ICE? it never was ICE. Actually converting it to an EV would be a lot easier, the fuel cell drives an electric motor, just put a battery in it's (and the hydrogen tanks) place.
Never trusted sitting on a high pressure canister. Now with that cost, definitely not.
I have 30 Solar Panels on the Roof. Charge Point in the Garage. No need for Hydrogen. All Electric. Sam how many Solar Panels do you have???
At $36/kg price of hydrogen with super unreliable refueling station, its very frustrating to buy this vehicle
Nuts, Pure Nuts
They should convert it to a BEV.
Anothder reason why no one keeps their fuel-cell car beyond the lease term.
The Anxiety and rapid depreciation make me never want to own an EV / AV Anxiety Vehicle.
Toyota almost gives away used Hydrogen cars in California. Cost over $100.00. Electric cars cost $5.00 to fill batteries at home. Good luck finding a Hydrogen station. Like 3 in California.
That's just a matter of time. 10 years later the same fuel cell will be cheaper than the EV's battery packs. Well hope so :P
I do not think so. As production increases the prices will go down for both technologies.
Hydrogen is the best for long range with heavy loads.
Lithium will be replaced by Sodium as it charges super fast. No need for a 400 mile range on family cars if a needed toilet break can be combined with a 10 minute full charge.
Not all technologies can progress at the same rate. Batteries have quite a runway.
@@chrishaberbosch1029 Yes, batteries sure have quite a runaway 😂
(sorry, I just could not resist)
People have been predicting that fuel cell vehicles would become cheaper than EVs and ICE vehicles for a while now. However, it's never going to happen without economies of scale and so far no one has even tried to make a mass production fuel cell car.
People who brought hydrogen cars must have been light headed at the time.
Ok but, if you rip out the h2 storage tank and add a Stan Meyer type resonant water splitter, it does make sense. Don't "refill" your tank, produce h2 on demand from water.
@@menotyou1234Stan Meyer was a conman, you cannot split water on demand and get more energy out than was used to split the water. It's basic physics. As a tech editor I have seen dozens of these energy from nowhere concepts, all have been scams based on ignorance or wilful deceit. Only the uneducated fall for such scams...
Rebuilt V8 350 $3500 in USA. Rebuilt my Late father's 2000 Dodge pickup ($17,000) motor, tires, brakes, gas and brake lines, etc... Truck had 83,000 miles on it. Cheaper than new. Replace a hydrogen cell at $100k no thanks. Next vehicle is going to be a Tesla.
I think the reason it's so expensive is due to the company that made their fuel cells no longer being in business and with it being a limited run so there are no parts available. Ballard cut the cost of their fuel cells by 70% with their next gen fuel cells. A fuel cell that would go into a car cost $35k back in 1998. Even if they had only cut that cost down with this latest Gen fuel cell that would put that same fuel cell at $10k.
Way too many zeroes in that percentage, Sam. If there are 81 million cars sold globally every year, then 0.01% of them would be 8,100 annual sales. 0.001% of them would be 810 cars. The true figure is likely between those two numbers. 0.000001% would be less than 1 car sold.
EVs has problems too. Going on fire is a problem, not a big problem, but when it happens it is very sudden and serious. Thats not good either!
A battery costs about $10k or more. No way that a fuel cell costs five times this amount of money. Furthermore fuel cells are getting better much faster than batteries.
8 years from now energy storage will be much better. Why buy something now
Because 8 years from now, that will still be true.
In 8 years you might be dead
@@SolAce-nw2hf maybe. I hope. But if we look at the invention of the cell phone. There were about 3 iterations of the product till one version stuck. Now we’ve been in a slump for phones for about a decade
@@intelatomtm those phones just keep getting better. It's just that you get used to it and every new version is just marginally better than the previous one. A phone from 8 years ago feels horrible now. The only constant is change.
I agree with you Sam
Ridiculous comparison.
How much batteries are made right now? And how much fuel cells?
Scale matters. Fuel cell price will drop significantly.
Though, putting them into road vehicles isn’t wise anymore: a missed opportunity from 15 years.
Obsolete……air filtration and fuel cells wetting has been improved since then …and possible H2 gas contamination has NOTHING to do with the vehicle….but inexperience…all this can be discussed of course, like the leaf springs improved on the Ford model T around 1912…Just note the fleets of taxis like Hype in Paris are repeated Miraï one and two BUYERS , over 600 of them there, 1000 in Madrid…because durability of the first ones must be good enough,,,,,LOL
Ok but, if you rip out the h2 storage tank and add a Stan Meyer type resonant water splitter, it does make sense. Don't "refill" your tank, produce h2 on demand from water.
Thanks for that ! We all appreciate your input. Wikipedia - "Meyer's claims about his "Water Fuel Cell" and the car that it powered were found to be fraudulent by an Ohio court in 1996.[1][2] "
But WTF would I know?
This is silly. Eventually the cost of fuel cells will massively drop.
No, they won't, fuel cells have been being made for vehicles for over 30 years and they are still insanely expensive, simply because they use very expensive materials and fuel cell systems are very complex. They will never be as cheap as batteries, and they will always be less than half as efficient as a battery vehicle.
It is not just the fuel cell, I think they replace the tanks, pipe etc as they only have a limited life because hydrogen is dangerous.
@@ledsalesoz the length of time that they've been making fuel cells is irrelevant. They have never been made in large numbers, so they have never benefited from the economies of scale.
@EnriqueThiele first of all, hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles are also EVs. I do expect battery-based EV's to be dominant for a decade or so. However, as the production of green hydrogen continues to become easier and cheaper, hydrogen fuel cell EVs will be the solution to the problems that battery based EVs can't solve.
@EnriqueThiele China will go nearly fully EV but Europe and the States will never get EV sales above 50%. The vast majority of people see them as impractical. They are not the solution
I think your video is totally out of context, typically and extremely one sided which makes it basically of zero value.
I personally believe green Hydrogen is by far the best answer to lower impact power storage and power generation.
The issue is how to create the green power initially and no doubt this will be solved in time.
The good thing is that this race for green power generation and storage is creating higher efficiencies in many areas, which is a very good thing for all of us.
So this is great news for EVs. Bad news for hydrogen fuel cell fans. I would never EVER buy a hydrogen fuel cell car in my life. Going full EV with only Tesla.
The Anxiety and rapid depreciation make me never want to own an EV / AV Anxiety Vehicle. Hybrid ❤️Baby
Battery also is one of major component of car! Very expensive
Hydrogen fuel cell is just starting, prices & improvement will come as things are develop
WOW
Take out the fuel cell and put in a battery.
The first sentence is already a lie. An ICE easily lasts 20 to 30 years. An EV battery lasts for 10 to 15 years, and then the EV ends in a shredder.
You would not say that if you lived in Australia. There are very few 20 + year old cars. EV batteries can be replaced and are getting cheaper and cheaper. I suggest you check some facts instead of guessing. Like ICE cars, there are good and not so good EV's. If you look at battery degradation figures, they are nowhere near as bad as you imagine. Running costs for ICE are way more than EV also.
What is a hydrogen powered car.
Well, it is an EV, that instead of plugging into the mains gets its electric from a fuel cell. The hydrogen for the fuel cell, hopefully, is made from electricity. So why not just cut out the middle man!
Don't think it's very fair just taking just one case into consideration. No better than the idiots posting the same Tesla going up in flames in a calendar. There are always going to be outliers that skew the average experience. Is 50k miles the average mileage they will cover , Is €100.000 the normal cost to replace the cell? I don't have the answers, but I think someone making a video like this should.....
Ca gov Newsome has just approved massive spending for hydrogen fuel for trucking industry. How is greasing his wallet?
Also Hydrogen escapes from the tank even if the car is just sitting in the garage. 5 days and H2 wil be gone - how you gonna charge it then.
Yeah so as of 4 months ago... Hyundai had already changed the name of IX 35 to NEXO 4 YEARS AGO. The Hyundai hydrogen ix35 was more or less a prototype. Are you not aware of the existence of Hyundai Nexo for 4 YEARS? Hyundai hydrogen ix35 is an ancient dinosaur that shouldn't even be for resale... that they no longer make anymore.
2) You can buy a 2022 Hyundai Nexo in Los Angeles for as low as $15,000 now...
So yeah that's a little cheaper than a $60,000 ionic 6 battery now isn't it? Not quite eight times more like you were trying to propagandize.
I think Hydrogen will be utilized for the shipping industry and long haul aviation and space travel, for domestic cars its not really feasible, the last time I looked I don’t have any hydrogen fuel at home. Go electric for cars it’s a no brainer.. Peter
And if your home has no parking space, as in many cities?
Throwing an extension cord on the sidewalk is illegal here. No choice but to get in line for the neighbourhood charger, like everyone else.
No thanks. And I am not moving just to charge an EV that i will drive for only 4000 miles a year.
@@SolAce-nw2hfYour loss. 🤷♂️
If you only do 4,000 a year you’d only need to charge a decent EV around once every month.
The only one is space, as the easiest way to transport hydrogen is as a liquid. (hydrogen pressure vessels are way to heavy for a rocket) The space industry normally turn oxygen into liquid by near freezing it, so doing the same for hydrogen is no problem, there just remains the energy density problem, how does liquid hydrogen compare to the other fuels they currently use.
@@paulstubbs7678 Actually, the easiest way to transport it is using gas pipes, just like with natural gas. In the Nederlands, there is a plan to convert the gas network, as natural gas is not seen as the future, and not using that infrastructure anymore is silly. Compression in these pipes is much lower and seasonal storage can be done in large salt cavern, currently in use for natural gas. In cars, the easiest way to store it, is just high compression at 700 bar. That gets you about 400 miles bij refilling 5 kg of hydrogen in something like 5 minutes. Trucks use 350 bar, because space is not an issue, and less compression is cheaper and easier.
Compared to fossil fuels, green hydrogen is much better. And currently, industry is using a lot of grey hydrogen based on gas, so getting the green production started on solar surplus makes sense anyway. Production can run for about 8 months per year on solar, also to make sure that the surplus does not (more or less) destroy the grid as more people and businesses get solar panels, with no practical application on a sunny and windy and sunday afternoon.
@@FutureSystem738 That is the problem. Getting an EV that will save near to nothing in emissions and just rusting in a parking space is not very efficient. The CO2 emissions from production can never be balanced. I will just keep my petrol car for now and use it until my mileage increases or something that makes sense for me comes along. My biggest issue with getting a really small EV is the range sometimes needed. That is almost 500 miles, but I really don't want to lug that much dead weight around all year for this.
Howdy,
Have you caught up with hydrogen combustion engine concepts (not hydrogen fuel cell). UK heavy industry machinery maker JCB are going this direction for BIG machines (where it’s "completely economically unviable" to implement electric tech). They’re making hydrogen combustion engines in the same block format as diesel engine blocks. Existing vehicles can be converted to hydrogen fuel engine and fuel storage.
Here’s Harry’s Garage episode on JCB hydrogen engines…
ruclips.net/video/jxtxZY45RMM/видео.html
Cheers,
PeteQ
The biggest miners have gone that path and found out EV trucks are cheaper
problem with hydrogen is it is gas, not liquid
in fact it is the lightest molecule in the world
natural gas is easier, that is why NGV taxis has been around, conversion is cheaper too, because pressure is lower
and they are now thinking ammonia is more suitable since its even less volatile, and it is more viable "greener" than natural gas
in the end, all the japanese is trying to do is to create a different market where it does not have to compete with chinese EV, thats the truth, they cant make an EV that cost competitive
The issues with using H2 as a motor fuel are comparable to using petroleum. The motor will still produce pollution in the form of nitrous oxides, and the efficiency falls off a cliff. On average it takes one barrel of oil to extract 14 barrels of oil out of the ground, and out of each barrel extracted, only 12 to 14% of that barrel ends up turning the wheels of the car after one factors in all of the losses due to refining, transportation, and motor losses. This is referred to as the "well to wheel efficiency," and it is about 12 to 14% for petroleum. The one barrel of oil used to pump the 14 barrels of oil out of the ground is usually referred to as "energy returned on investment" (or EROI) of 14 to 1.
It takes 5 barrels of oil (or 5 barrels of oil equivalent energy) to produce the equivalent of one barrel of oil in the form of hydrogen, and then only about 25% of that barrel equivalent of H2 actually is used to turn the wheels. So while the "well to wheel efficiency" of H2 is about double that of petroleum, the EROI of making H2 is actually negative at 1 to 5. That is, it takes 5 barrel of petroleum equivalent energy to make 1 barrel of petroleum equivalent energy of hydrogen.
This is why H2 will never be a viable energy source, especially since 95% of the H2 manufactured now is made from natural gas. Less CO2 is produced if the natural gas is just burned to make electricity for EVs, since the well to wheel efficiency of EVs from electricity produced from burning natural gas is around 50 to 60%. Ironically the well to wheel efficiency of H2 made from renewables is about the same as that made from natural gas (~25%). EVs using electricity from renewables have a well to wheel efficiency of 75 to 95%.
They're half as efficient as fuel cell. Fuel Cell already sucks but hydrogen combustion engine is next level dumb.
A hydrogen internal combustion engine car makes less sense than a hydrogen fuel cell car.
A lot of the problems with hydrogen FC cars are coming more from the hydrogen than from the fuel cells. With an ICE car, all of those hydrogen problems get worse because ICEs are less efficient than fuel cells, meaning you will need to use more hydrogen. You would need really enormous fuel tanks to get a decent range with a hydrogen ICE car.
Considering that 95% of hydrogen is made by reforming natural gas, putting that natural gas in an ICE car without reforming it into hydrogen would be better in almost all aspects compared to using hydrogen. With fuel cells reforming the natural gas into hydrogen makes at least a little sense, because then you can use PEM type fuel cells that might not be able to handle the natural gas.
FYI - Most of the comments here are A.I. generated by Big Oil.
I'm driving a 2007 Jeep and a 2013 VW And there are many older cars on the road near me so your theory on longevity of an ice car is bogus
For those of us with a memory...... We remember that in the early 2000s, electric cars were all but abandoned as an idea as hydrogen was the future. It came to nothing exactly for the reason that it was far too expensive to be practical and not really that environmentally friendly. Interesting to note also that, although water vapour as exhaust sounds great, water vapour has twice the warming effect of co2. Loads more vapour produced from a hydrogen car than co2 from and ice car. So how can this possibly combat warming?
Foolcells are just 🤦♂️
the Taliban would love for everyone to have H2 cars it would make their job much easier.
Good one😂😂😂
Why? EV's are much more toxic, will burn for days, set other EV's on fire. In contrast, H2 just rises and dissipates when the tank is breached in a Hydrogen car.
@@SolAce-nw2hfthere are videos of hydrogen tanks getting shot at and nothing really happening. People are pretty clueless when it comes to hydrogen and are getting freaked out by channels like this where either Viking either is biased or is also clueless.. either way he ends up sounding a lot like the people that make outrageous claims about evs to freak people out. I work in mining. If these people are this scared of hydrogen they would never survive a day on a site where the materials that are needed to produce evs come from. Hydrogen is the least of my worries. Lol
Yeah, it's essentially bull shit on wheels.
So that's nearly 3-4X tesla model 3s or Chevy Hyundai ioniq5s, LOL.
Hello mate
What a big fat lie. EV batteries often dont even last as long as the ev. I had a 30 year old car with 300k miles that got 30mpg and it was not an exception. I have a car now thats 67 years old and well over 100k miles that still runs and drives.
Think once, out there is no serious hydrogen solution that works for cars especially ICE concepts but also fuel cells. But heat and climatize your house with at least 25 square meters of PV can already produce as much hydrogen that by June or July you have enough for winter. There is a device and concept from HPS Home Power Solutions AG called PICEA that does the job for 60‘ to 90‘000 USD all with parts from stock. For the rest of the year you may sell excess energy, make electric power for your EV, fill batteries etc. In cars however this is and was from the beginning just stupid although technically feasible. However hydrogen in small mobility solution is from many considerations nonsense. I see applications for ships producing hydrogen on board by different also available rather cheap technology. Even with airplanes there are however many questions open. So also I think if physics can solve what Stan Meyer once promised even then I do not think that hydrogen would be for personal transportation as water it too precious in futur society.
Nobody replaces a battery pack for longer than the entire life of an internal combustion engine vehicle....
Suggest you talk to your local Hyundai dealer - loads of warranty replacement battery packs. Which means there are loads that will fail just out of warranty. Source - mechanic BIL at a Hyundai dealership.
But hydrogen is even suckier. Hard to see the supply infrastructure ever catching up.
Hydrogen fuel cells last 30k+ hours. The fuel cell will last 10x longer than the battery that is in the car.
Indeed mental, not true either.
Yes sir at this point the H2 fuel cell will be a bundle . But as the battery gets better , H2 fuel cell costs will also go down in time
It's a looooong way to go from $176,000. And hydrogen will never be safe.
now how much will it cost to replace ev batteries bud
Get myself a nice new C8 Corvette for that price.