Sounds like there should just be a Purple Dragon and Deep Dragon classified as two entirely different species. I don’t watch you often Esper but, every time I do, I am more than content.
That does seem to have been the original intention, 3.5 era Dragon Compendium ( which took older edition articles from Dragon Magazine and updated them to 3.5 ) had an official Purple Dragon in it and Deep Dragon was labeled as a "Faerunian Dragon"
Deep dragons are Shadow dragons pulling off the ninja replacement trick, only instead of a log they cobble something out of the corpses of a big fish and a giant bat. Purple dragons keep Shadow dragons as butlers, so if someone comes lookimg for them the shadow dragon can do the replacement trick to get rid of the adventurer. Purples find pesky humans too boring to even lift a paw at them.
personal headcanon: since they got a bit of red and blue in them purple dragons intentionally made people start thinking they were deep dragons to mislead and confuse people. to make them easier prey.
If you ask me, dragons canonically being unable to produce hybrid offspring with other dragons unless by some fluke in 5E legitimately just feels like laziness on the part of whoever writes its lore. It feels like they just don't want to put in the effort to flesh out the concept. Like, they expect us to believe they can reproduce with humanoids, but _not_ with closely related species of their own kind? That's absurd to me.
I mean I get color and metallic dragons their separate gods hate each other but like a color dragon with another color yea kinda weird and doesnt make sense
I thought the canon was that the offspring just rarely becomes a hybrid, and usually becomes the same type as one of the parents, but with maybe a few oddities. A green dragon with a red dragon parent might be bigger and bulkier than other green dragons, for example.
@@TheHornedKing Besides chromatic dragons hate each other why would they procreate i’m pretty sure a black dragon won’t mate with a neighbouring Green dragon some other lore says that Tiamat had a sister that was killed answer sister had created The other chromatic dragons The purple dragons The orange dragons the grey dragons the yellow dragons and no pink dragons don’t count they were a fan submitted monster plus it’s a bit too silly to be a chromatic dragon
This might be outdated, but from what I remember dragons are generally unlikely to mate with different dragons. But when they do, there's a chance a hybrid is born. Hybrids are not a species onto themselves, they are unique individuals. But there's also stuff written about how chromatic dragons follow color theory. Purple coming from Red and Blue dragon parents. There's more about Tiamat not allowing a hybrid between a metallic and a chromatic to be born. But this would only apply to Toril and not other worlds like Abeir. I also remember that the same person who made the whole color theory thing for chromatics, mentioned a sister god to Tiamat. Tiamat killed her. Apparently there's lore that this is where the hydra come from as well (the spilling of that god's blood), so do with all that what you will. Personally, I think the "hybrids are rare, and matting between dragon species is also rare" thing is just there to explain why these are the dragon species that exist, and why we don't see others. But this basically leaves it to the GM to do with what they like, since rare does not mean impossible.
To be fair Halfdragons and Dragonborns only exist because players kept asking if they could play as a dragon. Finally one DM said 'Here, you can play as a halfass dragon or this thing I call a dragonborn. Now go fuck yourself."
Though he did make one mistake, at least in my opinion, he had it’s lair effects affect all creatures. The issue, this includes the dragon, meaning the whole darkness that darkvision doesn’t work in, it has the same issue as the player characters.
@@brianroberts783 while it does have blindsight its range is far too limited (in my opinion) i would recommend any who use it (or if anyone points this out to him and he changes it) the following minor change from “All dim light is treated as darkness and creatures with darkvision are unable to see in the dark as though they did not have darkvision.” to “All dim light is treated as darkness and creatures, other than the dragon, with darkvision are unable to see in the dark as though they did not have darkvision.” because this increases its range of sight and allows for the dragon to be higher in the sky and set up some really epic ambushes by sitting in the dark or flying through the air. This also allows for it to be even more dominant over other dragons while in its lair, and the heart of its territory.
A pleasure as always, Esper. For reference, Dungeon Dad made a purple dragon in line with the original, plasma breathing, chromatic menace... But updated for 5e. THAT is the purple dragon for me.
To me even though I've never played 1e or 2e, the original purple dragon has always been the definitive take on it, ever since I learned about it. There's something so unbelievably cool about the idea of the two strongest Chromatics breeding to create a new dragon that combines the best traits of both of them, with a new arsenal that makes it the most deadly dragon ever. It's breath weapon abilities are amazing, especially the fact it can bypass fire resistance, and target a single creature, and its personality is really intriguing, particularly the family dynamic attributes. While I'm not as attached to the original "Deep Dragon" I still think its cool and has a valid place in D&D, and I wish that the original Purple Dragon, and the original Deep Dragon could coexist as their own things so no dragon is left behind and both can play their roles in their niches.
I feel you on the divorcing of my games and the official stuff. My friends and I are working on making our own custom setting, each playing as a god with one or two domains who are in charge of making or altering things that exist. So far it is completely alien and I love it!
I wholeheartedly agree with you in regards to dragons using literally any mobility option other than walking around. They get bogged down and slaughtered so quickly, especially when you've got that one player who never fails to take the broken-ass Sentinel feat. Of course, the flipside is that you get players complaining about how their melee-build characters aren't suited to deal with an aerial opponent. Like the nerfed purple dragon, I just can't win...
Hi Esper, just wanted to let you know I really like this new video format. It still retains your core identity and perspective, but as a video production, it's more polished and seems like a natural progression of your previous work. Nice job 👍
"We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Indeed only by myth-making, only by becoming 'sub-creator' and inventing stories, can Man aspire to the state of perfection that he knew before the Fall. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbor, while materialist 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil." -- J.R.R. Tolkien
I'm with you Esper! Great content ty for all you do.
5 месяцев назад+1
this is how I feel with a lot of 5e that I have read. YES, anything can be homebrewed but if I am going to have to homebrew a great many things, then why did I spend all that money to buy the book in the first place. I mean it's not everything and there is still a lot of value in 5e but there are a lot of things that have been so changed and not for the better, it's sad. I totally get where you are coming from! I am much more attached to TSR based D&D. That's just my personal feeling. Quality over ideology! well said good bard well said indeed!
there was this weird thing called the dragon compendium that ported the purple dragon to 3.5 like the breath portrayal plasmic electric crackles around a white hot beam that eventually disperses into purple light
Ironic that GRRM made that statement, bc I bet he wishes now that he had done things differently beforehand and maybe did a little more planning, lmao.
3.X did have the traditional Purple Dragon with the plasma breath attack, but it was relegated to Dragon Magazine and the Dragon Magazine Compendium source book, in addition to the Deep Dragon also there.
@esperthebard I can't remember what issue off the top of my head but if you can find a PDF of the Dragon Compendium Vol 1 ( despite that they never made a vol 2) its totally in there alongside the Yellow and Orange dragons
Good for you, Esper! It is very good to hear that you will be making more videos about your world and setting. I have been itching to know more about it. Maybe it is just me but in recent month the was a notable increase in videos about original world building ideas, like for example "Monstergarden" or "Treelancer", in my RUclips feed. These settings are very fascinating and there are many interesting ideas, but they are all trying to create something very distinct from the classic fantasy world. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, but for me it is sometime a little bit to much. There is no connection to myths or legends. So I am very hopeful about Ichoros. With your strife to create a timeless world rooted in the myths and stories of the past it will be a wild ride!
I am biased towards 3rd edition, since it is the edition I learned to play, but you have to admit the 3rd edition design for the purple dragon is neat. It looks so serpentine and elegant.
3e was always when I truly learned D&D and delved deep into it as both player and DM. The 3e purple dragon is really solid, and like many things from that era, is a good balance of oldschool and newschool.
I know its not the canonical version, but my favorite Purple Dragon is from a set of document I found on the DMs guild in like 2016 or 17, which converted the orange and yellow dragons faithfully, but its purple dragons became thus: "Purple dragons believe themselves to be the rightful lords of all dragonkind. Exceptionally arrogant and haughty, they seek out other dragons to defeat in battle and prove their superiority. A superiority that is difficult to question, for among all chromatic dragons, only reds can rival their strength and size. Furthermore, purple dragons are amongst the most intelligent of all the dragons, and they are inherently magical, possessing a unique breath weapon of magical force energy that they can shape into one of several forms as they exhale." This is from "Draconomicon: Purple Dragons" by Spilled Ale Studios. I built upon this version for my worlds purple dragons, and combined it with the innate psionics of the 4e Deep Dragon. I call the official 5e deep dragon as Indigo Dragons I also personally don't like the old color theory mixing of dragon types to create the weird chromatics, but that is just my opinion.
WotC argues dragon " bloat " NO, massive B.S.Not as long as the dragons are unique which most if notball were/ are The Yellow and Orange dragons got dirtied too! Removed wings and became just oversized salamanders, NOT dragons at all. However, regarding purples🟣❗️Heres some comforting thoughts. First⚠️ In the Young Adventurers Book: Dragons and Treasures from 2021/22? It mentions Brown, Gray and PURPLE dragons. I doubt its a slip-up. Second⚠️NOWHERE in Fizbans ToD under Deep dragon does it mention anything its species being Purple dragon. I see Deep dragons as a sub-species at most of the Purple dragon (which Imo lives in Middle Underdark), and its NOT a replacement. Also looking at the artworks it seems to be correct as a few 4e Purples had fungi growing on them. Also! Richard Alan Lloyds Purple dragons in Dragon Magazine which breathes plasma seems to live in Upper Underdark and burrows up into fields at night to hunt prey.
Just love the music analogy (Pop vs. Rock/Metal/Punk)! Very true words again... Thanks, Esper! Btw - have you heard about "Tales of Argosa"? It seems to have this more old-school, gritty feeling while still being rules based in 5e (though I have to give it a closer look to be sure).
I haven't played since early 4E, grew up on 2E and played 3-3.5E for the other half. Been getting that reminiscing bug and randomly found your channel. After watching some of your and other channels videos, it sure seems like 5E is not much like what I knew. Sadly in a way, kind of glad I never played much of 4E and beyond. But never the less, the videos I've watched so far have been itching that nostalgia bug! Thanks!
I dont agree with all your opinions on this stuff, as I've said many a time. But I do applaud the efforts to make this game your own. At the end of the day, this game is ours and not wotc's or hasbro's. I can't wait to see more from you.
The purple dragons I’m writing about are the powerful 1e/2e ones. On Nearia purple dragons and deep dragons are different species. The deep dragons are the 3.5e ones
Hopefully your setting doesn’t need too much retconning to remove the IP from Wizards. I did the same for my setting in some ways because they change so much stuff from edition to edition. I do, sometimes painfully, make room to add the core races that change from editions. Adding Tieflings and Dragonborn as a core race felt contrived, but presenting it as a “D&D game” I felt it would be just too far to not allow Players Handbook 1 Races.
How about deep dragons are an evolution of the purple dragons that moved to the underdark and slowly evolved across the edition to become the deep dragons corrupted by the underdark
Have not watched the video yet, but as a DnD dragon fanatic, I'd argue the most retconned dragons are the Steel Dragons and the Song Dragons. As they were not even included in Fizban's, but rahter NUKED from the game entirely. The deep dragons, albiet drastically changed, are still present.
@@brianroberts783 Correct, in Fizban's it was stated that they were likely just other metallic dragons disguised as them, basically scrubbing them away in the lore.
I didn't know of the origin of the purple dragon, that was awesome. Also, as a kid from the 90's, I also more to "rock", as you put it, in those questions of lore and design, but yeah, the other it sells more right?
Throughout my main D&D setting The Endless Seas, I only have one retcon. Bring in all of the races of my other settings from my books to give players more options for play and more things to play with while making NPCs. Thought if I had to fix all the D&D races might as well just bring in my good ones.
Personally liked the 3e version. I thought it fit nicely with the environment, and there's a lot to use for one that basically maps out the underdark. I didn't mind the loss of power, since I felt this creature would win by taking advantage of the terrain and tactics related to this. Homebrewed it so the gas thing was related to mushroom spores it consumed, but still had plasma when it needed to go lethal. Nothing against the older edition, but we already have other options for the surface. With 3e I got a hunter, explorer, plot-hook with the Drow and/or mind flayers, etc. It's just muah chefs kiss.
The 3e version was definitely cool in its own way, and the 4e version, while not quite as cool, still carried the main idea and worked well for that system. It's really the 5e version that got really wonky. They fleshed out more lore and gave it more uniqueness, while warping it beyond recognition and insulting it by making it googly-eyed, toothless thing that's weaker than all other true dragons.
@@esperthebard They also removed Steel and Song dragons. I went the route that Steel, Song, and Purple dragons actively fool sages into believing that they don't exist or are some other thing.
I gotta agree with Esper, they even did away with Steel Dragons which I really enjoyed using! As for the purple dragon, I use Dungeon Dad's version and that works a lot better for me. I have used the 5e Deep Dragon... I refavored it as a greater drake that had been hijacked Myconids. Keep doing what you're doing Esper. Who knows maybe yelling at clouds will lead to some lightening lighting a fire for you.
Zuggtmoy now has a pet dragon at 10:32 that would be better wouldn't it? it would account for the changes, not just the khezu treatment fro living in caves, a demonic fungal infection, slowly corroding and dominating the once proud and malevolent purple dragon, just because you are a dragon, and lived for milenia, does not mean you can bargain with demons and get out unschathed.
Modern D&D is a mockery of the hobby I grew up loving. The rainbow haired ideologues pushing their critical construcitonist epistemology into every facet of life has made me recoil in horror from all that I once loved.
It's good to know that I'm not the only one that feels like corporations have given control of the IP to people who believe in media sanitation. In fact secular ideologies are following a similar path to many churches, to sell the idea of 'happy fun times' and pastel colors only, to then forget the past of stories with anguish and ugliness, to skip over or ignore Caine or Samson in favor of JESUS LUBS YOU. I have a theory of this but RUclips scrubs it every time. I'm not even sure WHERE the offending content is. But again thank you for focusing on the more escapist side of the hobby.
I absolutely agree that we pay for these things and deserve good content for it. I enjoy reworking stat blocks, but I shouldn’t have to. I was very disappointed in the fact that the deep dragon was 5e’s purple dragon as purple dragons are some of my favorite dragons in DnD. I was also disappointed that all the greatwyrms of each type had the same CR and didn’t scale with the dragon it came from.
I really enjoy your passion and the quality you put into your videos, but I am consistently baffled how you say something like "quality over ideology" as if you don't put your ideology into your own videos. And I'm even saying you shouldn't put your ideology into your art. That's the point of art: to express, to communicate, and to elicit emotion. It's perfectly fine to express discontent with the ideology of the art, but it's pretty unfair to say you don't express ideology in your own. For instance, I agree with your criticism of how lame such a legendary dragon became. It feels like directionless changes with no respect for the pre-existing lore and everything about it sucks. But to then make the claim that your ideology is not present is wild. You have a video titled "RPGs Are a Spiritual Experience for Me." Full stop. A declaration. Spirituality is inherently ideological. And I know you've openly expressed your Christianity in a few videos. That's awesome. There are a lot of amazing things in the Bible that I truly love. But that's ideological. And this is your art. Your videos are rad man. Please keep it up!
Keep in mind I'm promoting quality over ideology, not "try to remove all ideology". In other words, the quality of the art, the writing, the characters, the world building, the system mechanics, etc. get prioritized above any philosophy or politics.
@esperthebard I one hundred percent understand that. Again, it's why I enjoy your videos as much as I do. I'm just saying it's impossible to remove ideology from art. And because of that, the higher quality you produce, you are inherently more powerfully serving your ideology. To quote George Orwell, "All art is propaganda." And I think that's fine. But let's not pretend it's not. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
My headcannon is that purple dragons and deep dragons are two separate things. I actually like the 5E deep dragon, it works for an underdark campaign as a way to introduce players to how to fight a dragon. However, purple dragons will always be the powerful, family-oriented, plasma-breathing nightmares that are meant for epic level campaigns only. The deep dragon is the "baby's first dragon" monster, and the purple dragon is the monster you throw at players who are ready for smart combat and ready to potentially lose their precious characters.
The Purple Dragon is a black Dragon who is so old his scales are starting to get a lavender tinge. A Deep Dragon (Shadow Dragon) is Black as pitch. No color at all.
Me and my friends play it fast and loose with modern "cannon". Some more modern settings we like, we tend to abandon those we don't. I really appreciate Dungeon Dad, who always has monsters, and makes them as they should be. I love his purple dragon. But in our games, we fix some of the modern mistakes. Chromatic dragons can and do change shapes. I especially tend to make the dragons evenly powerful, even if it is annoying to have to fix WotC's mistakes. Since they give Metallics a second breath weapon, I am planning to make the chromatics only breath weapon stronger than their metallic counterparts. Where the metallics diversify, the chromatic dragon's breath is undiluted, and stronger for it. I generally use the stat's of the metallics, slightly modified, to keep them even.
Since when did anyone ever claim that the "color wheel" purple dragon and the FR deep dragon were intended to be the same species, in the first place? They were completely separate concepts from different writers, and the *only* thing they had in common was what color their scales happened to be. You wouldn't assume that chiang lung were meant to be the same species as green dragons, would you? 🤔
Sounds like Esper might be looking for a viable contender towards modern-day D&D to rise up, one that would market itself as the edgy big boys' mature grimdark counterpart (possibly like in Warhammer-levels of edginess) towards what apparently seems to be modern-day politically-correct fluffy-wuffy D&D, like SEGA's Sonic the Hedgehog to Nintendo's Super Mario Bros., or the Mortal Kombat towards Street Fighter.
I dont want to just shit on you, as I feel like there are valid points being made. But it really feels like this video is just 17 minutes of "they changed this thing that I liked and now im mad about it". As someone who started with 5e, and never used a purple dragon. i found both the concept and design extremely silly and underwhelming. "A purple dragon? and its gimmick is being underground, look at its design thats a horrible body to have for underground!" Was my reaction. With the 5e redesign though, I love it. Its weird and gross, eyes to big for a monster that large. A dragon so detached from its own kind it is now dragon in name only. Sure it looks a little goofy when you put a nice spot light on it. But imagine encountering that thing in the dark! In a creepy mushroom covered cave! It finally looks like it belongs underground. All im saying is that while its valid to be upset that an aspect of a game you like is gone, It's very close minded to immediately jump to the notion that its now "damaged goods".
Video did feel a bit like that, although like you said there are good points. But at the end of the day players homebrew shit all the time, especially stuff from older editions. Something that could have made this more productive was to turn the conversation into "This is what you're missing out on" and teaching people about older Purple Dragons (Maybe even give suggestions on homebrew). Then people have an option to add to their 5e game. You still get to complain, and people get more out of it than "they changed this thing that I liked and now I'm mad about it". Personally, I preferred the 3e version. The older edition is kinda meh, cool breath weapon but otherwise just a stronger Blue dragon. But 3e is an intelligent horror monster and explorer, with plot-hooks for the Drow and mind flayers.
I thought deep dragons and purple dragons were different dragons, and deep dragons are just mistaken for purple dragons in-lore. I would almost argue they still are, given how different the original was. Besides being purple colored dragons, literally everything else is different.
I'm with you, philosophically. I still love the FR, but I have a lot of ideas for my own setting. To me, it's even more important to solve what I think are serious mechanical problems in 5e, so I have long been collecting ideas. But by the time I get home from work every day, I too rarely have it in me to refine and format them. But I am with you in that I am done with WotC's new publications. I do like the version of the Deep Dragon that I used, but it did feel wrong to give then psychic breath. That particular idea either makes no sense at all or needs to be expanded on. The 5e version seems quite lame. The earlier versions were cool in their own ways.
As popular as OSR D&D seems to be right now, I'd say you are probably set up for success in your endeavors. A lot of gamers are rejecting the new stuff that's more reminiscent of Harry Potter or cartoony video games for the gritty, high-deathrate rule sets of editions past. I personally know a guy who's going to all the trouble of writing up his own setting and modified OSR rules set because of it.
You know the thing you said about that the official books should be high quality, and that we shouldn't NEED to modify them to get them to work. I said something very similar about the 5e version of spelljammer when it came out. Do I think that a lot of people would ignore the combat and system generator mechanics that were in the original if they were put in. Sure. But those rules need to be there for us to be able to CHOOSE to ignore if we wish. Not giving them to us in the first place. Robs us fo both quality and that choice. That was when my split with 5e began.
I dropped most of the lore in the 90's well playing first and second editions. D&D lore has never been done in a way that allowed for world building outside core settings.
I figured out what is so out of place with the 5E Deep Dragon art: It's clearly inspired by the more caricatured anime dragon designs. While it's fine to use narrative and setting tropes from anime in D&D, never ever should the anime visual art style be copied. For visuals either you go all-in by using the anime art style for every piece of art, or don't use anime art style at all. Sneaking in little pieces of anime here and there destroys the visual cohesion of the work.
"Death of the author" is very valid, especially with what is happening today with people not caring at all about the content they create while trying to piggy back off how popular said content is. And I 100% agree with your arguments against "just homebrew it yourself!" to fix issues. It's one thing to change things up to your own liking but when the content constantly lacks or is outright bad you are just going to stop trying to fix things and either make your own thing or move onto something else.
Well, friend. You've reached the same point i have with Pathfinder 2E. I no longer buy Pathfinder material. (Or D&D, for that matter) It's been sad, but we forge on. Make our own stuff and find enjoyment where we can.
Playing and talking to my friends who have only played 5e has been interesting to say the least as obviously they are the most likely to not care about the longer term lore of things like this. Everything has to be changed for a "modern audience" but the same people playing before for the most part still play now, why is a "modern audience" hav eto have everything dumbed down for them, has some respect for the clientele I say
I really loved the Deep Dragon as it was in Drow of the Underdark, it was a lot more nuanced and developed than the Purple Dragon. It stepped down from just being a high CR monster to something actually pretty interesting to play with and implement. If they would have just ran with that, it would have been perfect; they could have even divorced the two concepts. Have the plasma-spewing Purple Dragon, and let the Deep Dragon be that other thing. The Deep Dragon now in 5E should just be a Mushroom Drake or Deep Drake or Wyvern. I'm pretty passive when it comes to retcons and the lore direction with D&D. I see the things going on, and yeah it's shameless and lame, but I've never; absolutely never have run a pre-made module before in my history of playing. I always made my own adventures, always made my own worlds. I'd still collect source books and monster manuals, and if I saw something that fit perfectly in my setting or an encounter, I would homebrew it the way I wanted it. To me that's one of the most important feelings as a DM, being able to wrangle together all these hoards of different monster to play. Whether they're out of the box, or frankensteined together; to me it is very much not a drag, it's part of the point of playing.
Esper..... excellent overall decision! Your mind will always leave 5e in the dust. ❤ 12.25 "Trust in designers has diminished." Needs to be "today's designers". This is the perfect example, among millions, of why 5E sucks. It's the new mentality. The original designers were spot on. This new generation has lost their minds. Anything woke goes broke. In my 15 years of being GameMaster, DM, I have to admit that I homebrewed a minimum of 75% of everything. I had to because all my players in 2 campaigns were experienced, they had all the books, there were no surprises. In my campaign, if they were using that knowledge without good reason, they were potentially in trouble for using it if they were wrong. It worked phenomenally for me. But I didn't mind the extra work.
Um ... the most powerful of dragons? So you're saying these things could have taken on the Prismatic and Force dragons? I'm not so sure about that. Even when they had the plasma breath weapon, I don't think that would have happened. Still, if the creatures I'm seeing in current edition are the deep/purple dragons, they have fallen pretty far.
Prismatic and force dragons weren't part of the game yet when the original "color wheel" version of the purple dragon was published. At the time, they pretty much deserved the "most powerful" title for then-extant dragons, assuming we exclude Tiamat and Bahamut from the running.
I do agree that they shouldn't have done away with the purple dragon. I do have an issue, though, with it being a hybrid of a blue and red dragon simply because a green dragon is not a hybrid of a yellow and a blue. Im ok with their being a dragon of every major color like yellow and orange. Buy they should not be hybrids. Is the old orange dragon a hybrid of yellow and red. No, it isn't, so why would a purple dragon be one. Also, you run into the issue of having hybrids of white and other chromatics just be lighter versions of the non white dragon, which is stupid. Also i think metallics are more likely to mate with each other as they are less likely to hate each other. Why would a red dragon who views themselves as the kings and emperors of all other dragons mate with what they consider to be a lesser creature and the blues are so vain as to hate anyone who considers them to be inferior. Their past lore might have been different from current lore but if its even remotely close then the hybrid purple dragon would never have been created as a hybrid.
Agree fully with your video, wotc have been terrible care takers of DnD. I cant wait to see the setting you grow and create! you should look into the OSR its where real dnd is at and you can make and use so many ideas to use within your own campaign and games!
I think they should treat (deep dragon) in 5e as it's own thing & bring back the (purple dragon) as it was giving it mobility option like in 3.5e but bring back the older plasma breath that ignores all resistances & immunities. Since purple dragon would ignore all resistance & immunity I say change the breath weapon d6's to a d4's as 2.5 instead of 3.5 average damage per role but it adds so much flavour. Purple dragon could so easily be worked into a new adventure module but recent books by Wotc are pretty terrible which is why Fizbans that I had mixed feelings on as the last book I bought. Happy with Fizbans at a 7/10 though it could have been so much more as at least the moonstone dragon was done well. the humanoids dragon worshippers were done poorly mind to compared to old editions & the Gem dragons artwork is awful. I don't like the direction they have taken 5e the last 2 to 3 years. If they fvck up Vecna: Eve of Ruin coming 21st may 2024 then my interest in the hobby will slip & I will just stick to older content or mash old content into the 5e framework myself.
I appreciate that the 5e designers wanted to do something distinct with the deep dragon, and they did flesh out more lore than in previous editions ... but they wrecked the whole monster in the process. I agree with what you wrote. They should have made a proper purple dragon, then made a spin-off dragon-kin like a "salamander dragon" or "fungus dragon" or a monstrosity that is distantly related to dragons.
@@esperthebardNo reason the purple dragon can still be done in a later book? I never like the purple dragon being called deep dragon anyway. 'Deep' has no symbolism to purple. creativity, imagination, independence, and a sense of adventure is what purple signified for romance. Purple also represented royalty & dreams. far better concepts for the purple dragon I think.
@@esperthebard I thought of an interesting concept for the purple dragon as every dragon has niece & it's layer. Why not make the purple dragon the roamer that can't stand being in anyone place while treated as ab outcast 1/2 cast. weaker breath weapon but ignores all resistance & immunity as mentioned. I imagine the purple dragon from old art as a slender sleek being that you can never keep down or locked in one place. I think movement though smaller cramped spaces as normal for 2 or 3 sizes smaller & make it have a highest speed on land of say 60=80ft etcetera of all the dragons would be am amazing vibe. A young purple dragon sized large being able to even follow & hunt down small or tiny races would be a fun change of pace. Long slender legs that that form flat with it's body to slither. Purple dragon should be the roaming independent most serpent like of dragons. A huge or Gargantuan purple dragon winding as it traverses though the corridors of a castle or keep as if a medium creature would be terrify to the players on sight & it's breath will guarantee damage even if of a lower d4 dies instead of d6's. Put a very high stealth & dexterity with mobility as mentioned imagine getting a surprise round off as a purple dragon on a oblivious party with the breath attack mentioned. The purple dragon should never be seen & those that do a rarely around for long after? The fun of it & table flipped up but a perfe You get no riches from the purple dragon all it wants is to have his creativity & imagination amused regardless of the cost to others, To the purple dragon greatest treasure is to experience in new stimulation to feed it's imagination for entertainment as they are ever curious like most snakes that as soon as you open the tank they want to get out out to have look about or even a chance to absconder. The red & blue dragons both have pride of might-destruction for red with blue as a patient tactician. A purple dragons pride of manipulation showing it's self to only to a select while remaining hidden to all others as their pray question if the dragon is real or not & they aren't sure of they are dreaming-insane. The purple dragon should want to induce madness into it's pray as it is akin to the sweetest nectar to them. This whole approach would explain why purple dragons are common in the under dark but really large geographic area they can remain unseen with plenty of cover & obfuscation. The best apex predators are the ones you never saw or coming. A dragon so rare & so few survivor that many people even often doubt their existence as nothing more then camp fire story or a collective string of madness. That's the sort of purple dragon I would like as it isn't the strongest or toughest but the most persistent predator like we humans as it selected pray it will never leaves alone for long & no uninterrupted sleep can be had by that the chaotic evil purple predates.
Yeah thank okay so here's a list He man Star Wars most of Marvel.And d c Dungeons and dragons war hammer. I hate it when people can't come up with their own s***And they decide to get a ruined.Everything else that came before like lord of the way
But why is it okay to say "we shouldn't have to modify our dragon waaaah" but we can all agree we modify normal NPC levels and powers without any issue. You can just make a certain orc much more powerful than another orc because he's "a bigger badder orc in the tribe", without anyone moaning that we had to modify it. I don't get this take at all.
I love the lore and the world of DND, and while I don't have anyone to play the tabletop with I still enjoyed the books, lore videos, and video games. It's just a shame WOTC is determined to sterilize anything deemed "problematic" when no one ever had a problem in the first place. Just waters down into nothing.
I will live and die by the fact that the old purple dragon is still the best rendition of it.
Sounds like there should just be a Purple Dragon and Deep Dragon classified as two entirely different species.
I don’t watch you often Esper but, every time I do, I am more than content.
I literally thought that was the case, and that deep dragons are just mistaken for purple dragons in-lore.
That does seem to have been the original intention, 3.5 era Dragon Compendium ( which took older edition articles from Dragon Magazine and updated them to 3.5 ) had an official Purple Dragon in it and Deep Dragon was labeled as a "Faerunian Dragon"
That's how I treat them.
Deep dragons are Shadow dragons pulling off the ninja replacement trick, only instead of a log they cobble something out of the corpses of a big fish and a giant bat. Purple dragons keep Shadow dragons as butlers, so if someone comes lookimg for them the shadow dragon can do the replacement trick to get rid of the adventurer. Purples find pesky humans too boring to even lift a paw at them.
personal headcanon: since they got a bit of red and blue in them purple dragons intentionally made people start thinking they were deep dragons to mislead and confuse people. to make them easier prey.
If you ask me, dragons canonically being unable to produce hybrid offspring with other dragons unless by some fluke in 5E legitimately just feels like laziness on the part of whoever writes its lore. It feels like they just don't want to put in the effort to flesh out the concept.
Like, they expect us to believe they can reproduce with humanoids, but _not_ with closely related species of their own kind? That's absurd to me.
I mean I get color and metallic dragons their separate gods hate each other but like a color dragon with another color yea kinda weird and doesnt make sense
I thought the canon was that the offspring just rarely becomes a hybrid, and usually becomes the same type as one of the parents, but with maybe a few oddities. A green dragon with a red dragon parent might be bigger and bulkier than other green dragons, for example.
@@TheHornedKing Besides chromatic dragons hate each other why would they procreate i’m pretty sure a black dragon won’t mate with a neighbouring Green dragon some other lore says that Tiamat had a sister that was killed answer sister had created The other chromatic dragons The purple dragons The orange dragons the grey dragons the yellow dragons and no pink dragons don’t count they were a fan submitted monster plus it’s a bit too silly to be a chromatic dragon
This might be outdated, but from what I remember dragons are generally unlikely to mate with different dragons. But when they do, there's a chance a hybrid is born. Hybrids are not a species onto themselves, they are unique individuals.
But there's also stuff written about how chromatic dragons follow color theory. Purple coming from Red and Blue dragon parents.
There's more about Tiamat not allowing a hybrid between a metallic and a chromatic to be born. But this would only apply to Toril and not other worlds like Abeir.
I also remember that the same person who made the whole color theory thing for chromatics, mentioned a sister god to Tiamat. Tiamat killed her. Apparently there's lore that this is where the hydra come from as well (the spilling of that god's blood), so do with all that what you will.
Personally, I think the "hybrids are rare, and matting between dragon species is also rare" thing is just there to explain why these are the dragon species that exist, and why we don't see others. But this basically leaves it to the GM to do with what they like, since rare does not mean impossible.
To be fair Halfdragons and Dragonborns only exist because players kept asking if they could play as a dragon. Finally one DM said
'Here, you can play as a halfass dragon or this thing I call a dragonborn. Now go fuck yourself."
If anyone wants the original Purple Dragon in their 5e game, Dungeon Dad did an episode on it a while back and fully converted it.
Yes! Go give Dungeon Dad some love!
Though he did make one mistake, at least in my opinion, he had it’s lair effects affect all creatures. The issue, this includes the dragon, meaning the whole darkness that darkvision doesn’t work in, it has the same issue as the player characters.
@@dragonboyxyz2308, it has Blindsight, so Darkness has no effect on it.
@@brianroberts783 while it does have blindsight its range is far too limited (in my opinion) i would recommend any who use it (or if anyone points this out to him and he changes it) the following minor change from “All dim light is treated as darkness and creatures with darkvision are unable to see in the dark as though they did not have darkvision.” to “All dim light is treated as darkness and creatures, other than the dragon, with darkvision are unable to see in the dark as though they did not have darkvision.”
because this increases its range of sight and allows for the dragon to be higher in the sky and set up some really epic ambushes by sitting in the dark or flying through the air. This also allows for it to be even more dominant over other dragons while in its lair, and the heart of its territory.
A pleasure as always, Esper.
For reference, Dungeon Dad made a purple dragon in line with the original, plasma breathing, chromatic menace... But updated for 5e. THAT is the purple dragon for me.
"Official DnD wants to go pop. I want rock!" I agree! (Metal though... I want metal!) :)
If I’m being honest, I like all three genres!
@@creativeusername7366 he he me too. :)
But what kind of Metal 🤔
I have both the original purple Dragon and the deep dragon as separate dragons in my world.
Same.
Same.
Their lore doesn't overlap or even contradict the other.
So it works out fine.
To me even though I've never played 1e or 2e, the original purple dragon has always been the definitive take on it, ever since I learned about it. There's something so unbelievably cool about the idea of the two strongest Chromatics breeding to create a new dragon that combines the best traits of both of them, with a new arsenal that makes it the most deadly dragon ever. It's breath weapon abilities are amazing, especially the fact it can bypass fire resistance, and target a single creature, and its personality is really intriguing, particularly the family dynamic attributes.
While I'm not as attached to the original "Deep Dragon" I still think its cool and has a valid place in D&D, and I wish that the original Purple Dragon, and the original Deep Dragon could coexist as their own things so no dragon is left behind and both can play their roles in their niches.
The purple dragon is dope. That plasma beam is something special.
I feel you on the divorcing of my games and the official stuff. My friends and I are working on making our own custom setting, each playing as a god with one or two domains who are in charge of making or altering things that exist. So far it is completely alien and I love it!
I always saw "Purple dragons" and "Deep dragons" as different species. In that way, I like the new version of the deep.
Dunno why this hit the feels so hard. This is Why I love your videos. The simplest dives are more thought provoking deeper than most care to look.
Today I learned retcons is an acronym, I mean it makes sense in retrospect but wow
Retro-spect is a portmanteau as well!
Retroactive Perspective
Retrospect!
Today I learned what an acronym is, I mean it makes in a retroactive perspective but wow
It's not an acronym, like radar or laser, but a portmanteau.
Super classy contribution, thank you. Makes your case without rancor, rant and rail.
The artwork used @3:26 and the switch to Clyde Caldwell's art... man, what has become of D&D... So much character and detail in CC's work.
I hear ya, it's gone from Tolkien and Conan to WoW and McDonald's. But in the end, what makes our campaigns great is what we put into them.
I wholeheartedly agree with you in regards to dragons using literally any mobility option other than walking around. They get bogged down and slaughtered so quickly, especially when you've got that one player who never fails to take the broken-ass Sentinel feat. Of course, the flipside is that you get players complaining about how their melee-build characters aren't suited to deal with an aerial opponent.
Like the nerfed purple dragon, I just can't win...
Even though the purple dragon isn't it's original form in 3rd, it's a wonderful example of what WotC did to TOR's D&D
Hi Esper, just wanted to let you know I really like this new video format. It still retains your core identity and perspective, but as a video production, it's more polished and seems like a natural progression of your previous work. Nice job 👍
I'm glad to hear that! Still tinkering with the format, but hopefully I'm in the right direction.
"We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Indeed only by myth-making, only by becoming 'sub-creator' and inventing stories, can Man aspire to the state of perfection that he knew before the Fall. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbor, while materialist 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil." -- J.R.R. Tolkien
I'm with you Esper! Great content ty for all you do.
this is how I feel with a lot of 5e that I have read. YES, anything can be homebrewed but if I am going to have to homebrew a great many things, then why did I spend all that money to buy the book in the first place. I mean it's not everything and there is still a lot of value in 5e but there are a lot of things that have been so changed and not for the better, it's sad. I totally get where you are coming from! I am much more attached to TSR based D&D. That's just my personal feeling. Quality over ideology! well said good bard well said indeed!
I love the determination you have expressed in this video, Esper. Keep at it! We support you.
there was this weird thing called the dragon compendium that ported the purple dragon to 3.5 like the breath portrayal plasmic electric crackles around a white hot beam that eventually disperses into purple light
Wizards Of The Coasts doesn't care about D&D as much as you, or anyone who wants a meaningful and rich experience at the table.
Ironic that GRRM made that statement, bc I bet he wishes now that he had done things differently beforehand and maybe did a little more planning, lmao.
3.X did have the traditional Purple Dragon with the plasma breath attack, but it was relegated to Dragon Magazine and the Dragon Magazine Compendium source book, in addition to the Deep Dragon also there.
No kidding? What issue? I didn't come across that while researching.
@esperthebard I can't remember what issue off the top of my head but if you can find a PDF of the Dragon Compendium Vol 1 ( despite that they never made a vol 2) its totally in there alongside the Yellow and Orange dragons
Good for you, Esper!
It is very good to hear that you will be making more videos about your world and setting. I have been itching to know more about it.
Maybe it is just me but in recent month the was a notable increase in videos about original world building ideas, like for example "Monstergarden" or "Treelancer", in my RUclips feed.
These settings are very fascinating and there are many interesting ideas, but they are all trying to create something very distinct from the classic fantasy world. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, but for me it is sometime a little bit to much. There is no connection to myths or legends.
So I am very hopeful about Ichoros. With your strife to create a timeless world rooted in the myths and stories of the past it will be a wild ride!
The Deep Dragon feels more like a replacement to the Purple Dragon than the actual Purple Dragon making a return.
I am biased towards 3rd edition, since it is the edition I learned to play, but you have to admit the 3rd edition design for the purple dragon is neat. It looks so serpentine and elegant.
3e was always when I truly learned D&D and delved deep into it as both player and DM. The 3e purple dragon is really solid, and like many things from that era, is a good balance of oldschool and newschool.
I know its not the canonical version, but my favorite Purple Dragon is from a set of document I found on the DMs guild in like 2016 or 17, which converted the orange and yellow dragons faithfully, but its purple dragons became thus:
"Purple dragons believe themselves to be the rightful lords of all dragonkind. Exceptionally arrogant and haughty, they seek out other dragons to defeat in battle and prove their superiority. A superiority that is difficult to question, for among all chromatic
dragons, only reds can rival their strength and size. Furthermore, purple dragons are amongst the most intelligent of all the dragons, and they are inherently magical, possessing a unique breath weapon of magical force energy that they can shape into one of several forms as they exhale."
This is from "Draconomicon: Purple Dragons" by Spilled Ale Studios.
I built upon this version for my worlds purple dragons, and combined it with the innate psionics of the 4e Deep Dragon.
I call the official 5e deep dragon as Indigo Dragons
I also personally don't like the old color theory mixing of dragon types to create the weird chromatics, but that is just my opinion.
WotC argues dragon " bloat " NO, massive B.S.Not as long as the dragons are unique which most if notball were/ are
The Yellow and Orange dragons got dirtied too! Removed wings and became just oversized salamanders, NOT dragons at all. However, regarding purples🟣❗️Heres some comforting thoughts. First⚠️ In the Young Adventurers Book: Dragons and Treasures from 2021/22? It mentions Brown, Gray and PURPLE dragons. I doubt its a slip-up. Second⚠️NOWHERE in Fizbans ToD under Deep dragon does it mention anything its species being Purple dragon. I see Deep dragons as a sub-species at most of the Purple dragon (which Imo lives in Middle Underdark), and its NOT a replacement.
Also looking at the artworks it seems to be correct as a few 4e Purples had fungi growing on them. Also! Richard Alan Lloyds Purple dragons in Dragon Magazine which breathes plasma seems to live in Upper Underdark and burrows up into fields at night to hunt prey.
The reason why I refused to run official stuff from the get go. I don't like pop, I WANNA ROCK!
Just love the music analogy (Pop vs. Rock/Metal/Punk)! Very true words again... Thanks, Esper! Btw - have you heard about "Tales of Argosa"? It seems to have this more old-school, gritty feeling while still being rules based in 5e (though I have to give it a closer look to be sure).
That's why I really love original settings like Zeitgeist. Thanks for what you do 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
I haven't played since early 4E, grew up on 2E and played 3-3.5E for the other half. Been getting that reminiscing bug and randomly found your channel. After watching some of your and other channels videos, it sure seems like 5E is not much like what I knew. Sadly in a way, kind of glad I never played much of 4E and beyond. But never the less, the videos I've watched so far have been itching that nostalgia bug! Thanks!
I dont agree with all your opinions on this stuff, as I've said many a time. But I do applaud the efforts to make this game your own. At the end of the day, this game is ours and not wotc's or hasbro's. I can't wait to see more from you.
The purple dragons I’m writing about are the powerful 1e/2e ones. On Nearia purple dragons and deep dragons are different species. The deep dragons are the 3.5e ones
Hopefully your setting doesn’t need too much retconning to remove the IP from Wizards. I did the same for my setting in some ways because they change so much stuff from edition to edition.
I do, sometimes painfully, make room to add the core races that change from editions. Adding Tieflings and Dragonborn as a core race felt contrived, but presenting it as a “D&D game” I felt it would be just too far to not allow Players Handbook 1 Races.
Noble quest, you can also switch systems while you are at it. Runequest and Gurps will give you a better experience for what you are seeking, I think.
I agree with the overarching sentiment but I think the 5e deep dragon is super cool :D
It is pretty cool, I just wish it were it's own distinct dragon or dragon-kin, then the purple dragon could hold a proper place among the chromatics.
I don't even play DnD, D6 Star Wars is my thing. I do like to watch your content, when you DM a game, or are making maps!
How about deep dragons are an evolution of the purple dragons that moved to the underdark and slowly evolved across the edition to become the deep dragons corrupted by the underdark
Have not watched the video yet, but as a DnD dragon fanatic, I'd argue the most retconned dragons are the Steel Dragons and the Song Dragons.
As they were not even included in Fizban's, but rahter NUKED from the game entirely.
The deep dragons, albiet drastically changed, are still present.
retcon = retroactive continuity. If something is removed or otherwise not present, there is no continuity.
To be clear, they were mentioned in Fizban's, but only in a sticky-note style textbox stating that they are essentially an urban myth.
@@brianroberts783 Correct, in Fizban's it was stated that they were likely just other metallic dragons disguised as them, basically scrubbing them away in the lore.
@@tyreecesalandy9269
Just gonna ignore that, and pretend that this is just how good Steel and Song dragons are at staying hidden.
@@ODXT So am I.
I didn't know of the origin of the purple dragon, that was awesome. Also, as a kid from the 90's, I also more to "rock", as you put it, in those questions of lore and design, but yeah, the other it sells more right?
Throughout my main D&D setting The Endless Seas, I only have one retcon. Bring in all of the races of my other settings from my books to give players more options for play and more things to play with while making NPCs. Thought if I had to fix all the D&D races might as well just bring in my good ones.
Personally liked the 3e version. I thought it fit nicely with the environment, and there's a lot to use for one that basically maps out the underdark. I didn't mind the loss of power, since I felt this creature would win by taking advantage of the terrain and tactics related to this. Homebrewed it so the gas thing was related to mushroom spores it consumed, but still had plasma when it needed to go lethal.
Nothing against the older edition, but we already have other options for the surface. With 3e I got a hunter, explorer, plot-hook with the Drow and/or mind flayers, etc. It's just muah chefs kiss.
The 3e version was definitely cool in its own way, and the 4e version, while not quite as cool, still carried the main idea and worked well for that system. It's really the 5e version that got really wonky. They fleshed out more lore and gave it more uniqueness, while warping it beyond recognition and insulting it by making it googly-eyed, toothless thing that's weaker than all other true dragons.
@@esperthebard
They also removed Steel and Song dragons. I went the route that Steel, Song, and Purple dragons actively fool sages into believing that they don't exist or are some other thing.
I gotta agree with Esper, they even did away with Steel Dragons which I really enjoyed using! As for the purple dragon, I use Dungeon Dad's version and that works a lot better for me. I have used the 5e Deep Dragon... I refavored it as a greater drake that had been hijacked Myconids.
Keep doing what you're doing Esper. Who knows maybe yelling at clouds will lead to some lightening lighting a fire for you.
Zuggtmoy
now has a pet dragon
at 10:32
that would be better wouldn't it?
it would account for the changes, not just the khezu treatment fro living in caves, a demonic fungal infection, slowly corroding and dominating the once proud and malevolent purple dragon, just because you are a dragon, and lived for milenia, does not mean you can bargain with demons and get out unschathed.
This would fit with Out of the Abyss. Gonna steal this idea; some Purple dragons made the mistake of making a deal with a Demon Lord.
@@ODXT By all means you are welcome.
You haven't stolen i gave it willingly.
Modern D&D is a mockery of the hobby I grew up loving. The rainbow haired ideologues pushing their critical construcitonist epistemology into every facet of life has made me recoil in horror from all that I once loved.
“Oh man, other people enjoying something I do too but they’re funny-looking and different from me and believe in inclusivity so I hate it now”
Great video.
It's good to know that I'm not the only one that feels like corporations have given control of the IP to people who believe in media sanitation. In fact secular ideologies are following a similar path to many churches, to sell the idea of 'happy fun times' and pastel colors only, to then forget the past of stories with anguish and ugliness, to skip over or ignore Caine or Samson in favor of JESUS LUBS YOU.
I have a theory of this but RUclips scrubs it every time. I'm not even sure WHERE the offending content is.
But again thank you for focusing on the more escapist side of the hobby.
I absolutely agree that we pay for these things and deserve good content for it. I enjoy reworking stat blocks, but I shouldn’t have to. I was very disappointed in the fact that the deep dragon was 5e’s purple dragon as purple dragons are some of my favorite dragons in DnD.
I was also disappointed that all the greatwyrms of each type had the same CR and didn’t scale with the dragon it came from.
Family, arcane and knowledge sounds good 😊
I really enjoy your passion and the quality you put into your videos, but I am consistently baffled how you say something like "quality over ideology" as if you don't put your ideology into your own videos. And I'm even saying you shouldn't put your ideology into your art. That's the point of art: to express, to communicate, and to elicit emotion. It's perfectly fine to express discontent with the ideology of the art, but it's pretty unfair to say you don't express ideology in your own. For instance, I agree with your criticism of how lame such a legendary dragon became. It feels like directionless changes with no respect for the pre-existing lore and everything about it sucks. But to then make the claim that your ideology is not present is wild. You have a video titled "RPGs Are a Spiritual Experience for Me." Full stop. A declaration. Spirituality is inherently ideological. And I know you've openly expressed your Christianity in a few videos. That's awesome. There are a lot of amazing things in the Bible that I truly love. But that's ideological. And this is your art.
Your videos are rad man. Please keep it up!
Keep in mind I'm promoting quality over ideology, not "try to remove all ideology". In other words, the quality of the art, the writing, the characters, the world building, the system mechanics, etc. get prioritized above any philosophy or politics.
@esperthebard I one hundred percent understand that. Again, it's why I enjoy your videos as much as I do. I'm just saying it's impossible to remove ideology from art. And because of that, the higher quality you produce, you are inherently more powerfully serving your ideology. To quote George Orwell, "All art is propaganda." And I think that's fine. But let's not pretend it's not.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
My headcannon is that purple dragons and deep dragons are two separate things. I actually like the 5E deep dragon, it works for an underdark campaign as a way to introduce players to how to fight a dragon. However, purple dragons will always be the powerful, family-oriented, plasma-breathing nightmares that are meant for epic level campaigns only. The deep dragon is the "baby's first dragon" monster, and the purple dragon is the monster you throw at players who are ready for smart combat and ready to potentially lose their precious characters.
Look how they massacred my boy :(
Great vid, thinking about going pathfinder
The Purple Dragon is a black Dragon who is so old his scales are starting to get a lavender tinge. A Deep Dragon (Shadow Dragon) is Black as pitch. No color at all.
Me and my friends play it fast and loose with modern "cannon". Some more modern settings we like, we tend to abandon those we don't. I really appreciate Dungeon Dad, who always has monsters, and makes them as they should be. I love his purple dragon. But in our games, we fix some of the modern mistakes. Chromatic dragons can and do change shapes. I especially tend to make the dragons evenly powerful, even if it is annoying to have to fix WotC's mistakes. Since they give Metallics a second breath weapon, I am planning to make the chromatics only breath weapon stronger than their metallic counterparts. Where the metallics diversify, the chromatic dragon's breath is undiluted, and stronger for it. I generally use the stat's of the metallics, slightly modified, to keep them even.
Here I've heard good things about the mandelorien, and mixed on the lord of the rings bit.
Since when did anyone ever claim that the "color wheel" purple dragon and the FR deep dragon were intended to be the same species, in the first place? They were completely separate concepts from different writers, and the *only* thing they had in common was what color their scales happened to be. You wouldn't assume that chiang lung were meant to be the same species as green dragons, would you? 🤔
Sounds like Esper might be looking for a viable contender towards modern-day D&D to rise up, one that would market itself as the edgy big boys' mature grimdark counterpart (possibly like in Warhammer-levels of edginess) towards what apparently seems to be modern-day politically-correct fluffy-wuffy D&D, like SEGA's Sonic the Hedgehog to Nintendo's Super Mario Bros., or the Mortal Kombat towards Street Fighter.
Looks like the purple dragon was inbred for generations and it shows in the 5th edition version
I dont want to just shit on you, as I feel like there are valid points being made. But it really feels like this video is just 17 minutes of "they changed this thing that I liked and now im mad about it".
As someone who started with 5e, and never used a purple dragon. i found both the concept and design extremely silly and underwhelming. "A purple dragon? and its gimmick is being underground, look at its design thats a horrible body to have for underground!" Was my reaction.
With the 5e redesign though, I love it. Its weird and gross, eyes to big for a monster that large. A dragon so detached from its own kind it is now dragon in name only. Sure it looks a little goofy when you put a nice spot light on it. But imagine encountering that thing in the dark! In a creepy mushroom covered cave! It finally looks like it belongs underground.
All im saying is that while its valid to be upset that an aspect of a game you like is gone, It's very close minded to immediately jump to the notion that its now "damaged goods".
Video did feel a bit like that, although like you said there are good points. But at the end of the day players homebrew shit all the time, especially stuff from older editions.
Something that could have made this more productive was to turn the conversation into "This is what you're missing out on" and teaching people about older Purple Dragons (Maybe even give suggestions on homebrew). Then people have an option to add to their 5e game. You still get to complain, and people get more out of it than "they changed this thing that I liked and now I'm mad about it".
Personally, I preferred the 3e version. The older edition is kinda meh, cool breath weapon but otherwise just a stronger Blue dragon. But 3e is an intelligent horror monster and explorer, with plot-hooks for the Drow and mind flayers.
awesome!
I thought deep dragons and purple dragons were different dragons, and deep dragons are just mistaken for purple dragons in-lore.
I would almost argue they still are, given how different the original was. Besides being purple colored dragons, literally everything else is different.
I'm with you, philosophically. I still love the FR, but I have a lot of ideas for my own setting. To me, it's even more important to solve what I think are serious mechanical problems in 5e, so I have long been collecting ideas. But by the time I get home from work every day, I too rarely have it in me to refine and format them. But I am with you in that I am done with WotC's new publications.
I do like the version of the Deep Dragon that I used, but it did feel wrong to give then psychic breath. That particular idea either makes no sense at all or needs to be expanded on. The 5e version seems quite lame. The earlier versions were cool in their own ways.
As popular as OSR D&D seems to be right now, I'd say you are probably set up for success in your endeavors. A lot of gamers are rejecting the new stuff that's more reminiscent of Harry Potter or cartoony video games for the gritty, high-deathrate rule sets of editions past. I personally know a guy who's going to all the trouble of writing up his own setting and modified OSR rules set because of it.
You know the thing you said about that the official books should be high quality, and that we shouldn't NEED to modify them to get them to work.
I said something very similar about the 5e version of spelljammer when it came out.
Do I think that a lot of people would ignore the combat and system generator mechanics that were in the original if they were put in.
Sure.
But those rules need to be there for us to be able to CHOOSE to ignore if we wish.
Not giving them to us in the first place. Robs us fo both quality and that choice.
That was when my split with 5e began.
I dropped most of the lore in the 90's well playing first and second editions. D&D lore has never been done in a way that allowed for world building outside core settings.
Woo! Loved this
Magari Mur è andato fisicamente a recuperare Shaka e si trova "Ikki" con lui, e questo spiega perchè non è presente
Ty I love the fact that you seem to like older school d and d more. Because this new shit is really pissing me off
I figured out what is so out of place with the 5E Deep Dragon art: It's clearly inspired by the more caricatured anime dragon designs. While it's fine to use narrative and setting tropes from anime in D&D, never ever should the anime visual art style be copied. For visuals either you go all-in by using the anime art style for every piece of art, or don't use anime art style at all. Sneaking in little pieces of anime here and there destroys the visual cohesion of the work.
Thaugmonglorious is THE Purple Dragon amd alway will be. (Unless your talking about the King of Cormyr. Who is also a legitimate Purple Dragon)
"Death of the author" is very valid, especially with what is happening today with people not caring at all about the content they create while trying to piggy back off how popular said content is. And I 100% agree with your arguments against "just homebrew it yourself!" to fix issues. It's one thing to change things up to your own liking but when the content constantly lacks or is outright bad you are just going to stop trying to fix things and either make your own thing or move onto something else.
Well, friend.
You've reached the same point i have with Pathfinder 2E.
I no longer buy Pathfinder material.
(Or D&D, for that matter)
It's been sad, but we forge on.
Make our own stuff and find enjoyment where we can.
Playing and talking to my friends who have only played 5e has been interesting to say the least as obviously they are the most likely to not care about the longer term lore of things like this.
Everything has to be changed for a "modern audience" but the same people playing before for the most part still play now, why is a "modern audience" hav eto have everything dumbed down for them, has some respect for the clientele I say
If the IP holders can’t or won’t make the products we actually want, we need to make them ourselves.
I see a lot of your mindset among OSR creators. There’s a strong group of free thinking TTRPG creators and enthusiasts on X.
I really loved the Deep Dragon as it was in Drow of the Underdark, it was a lot more nuanced and developed than the Purple Dragon. It stepped down from just being a high CR monster to something actually pretty interesting to play with and implement. If they would have just ran with that, it would have been perfect; they could have even divorced the two concepts. Have the plasma-spewing Purple Dragon, and let the Deep Dragon be that other thing.
The Deep Dragon now in 5E should just be a Mushroom Drake or Deep Drake or Wyvern.
I'm pretty passive when it comes to retcons and the lore direction with D&D. I see the things going on, and yeah it's shameless and lame, but I've never; absolutely never have run a pre-made module before in my history of playing. I always made my own adventures, always made my own worlds. I'd still collect source books and monster manuals, and if I saw something that fit perfectly in my setting or an encounter, I would homebrew it the way I wanted it. To me that's one of the most important feelings as a DM, being able to wrangle together all these hoards of different monster to play. Whether they're out of the box, or frankensteined together; to me it is very much not a drag, it's part of the point of playing.
I love the wonky salamander fungal deep dragón but damn it should not have pushed the purple dragon out of existence. Shame on wotc
Just superpowers them up by 10 times
Hence me doing My own world 🤣
If i want to have something it Will be on there
Hiveminds and more physic power also more spells also plasma breath no mushrooms body
Esper..... excellent overall decision! Your mind will always leave 5e in the dust. ❤
12.25 "Trust in designers has diminished."
Needs to be "today's designers".
This is the perfect example, among millions, of why 5E sucks. It's the new mentality. The original designers were spot on. This new generation has lost their minds. Anything woke goes broke.
In my 15 years of being GameMaster, DM, I have to admit that I homebrewed a minimum of 75% of everything. I had to because all my players in 2 campaigns were experienced, they had all the books, there were no surprises. In my campaign, if they were using that knowledge without good reason, they were potentially in trouble for using it if they were wrong.
It worked phenomenally for me. But I didn't mind the extra work.
Um ... the most powerful of dragons? So you're saying these things could have taken on the Prismatic and Force dragons? I'm not so sure about that. Even when they had the plasma breath weapon, I don't think that would have happened.
Still, if the creatures I'm seeing in current edition are the deep/purple dragons, they have fallen pretty far.
Prismatic and force dragons weren't part of the game yet when the original "color wheel" version of the purple dragon was published. At the time, they pretty much deserved the "most powerful" title for then-extant dragons, assuming we exclude Tiamat and Bahamut from the running.
@@sharondornhoff7563 True enough. Do prismatic and force dragons still exist in current ed?
Wasting time on repairing old work makes no sense! Just keep creating!
I do agree that they shouldn't have done away with the purple dragon. I do have an issue, though, with it being a hybrid of a blue and red dragon simply because a green dragon is not a hybrid of a yellow and a blue. Im ok with their being a dragon of every major color like yellow and orange. Buy they should not be hybrids. Is the old orange dragon a hybrid of yellow and red. No, it isn't, so why would a purple dragon be one. Also, you run into the issue of having hybrids of white and other chromatics just be lighter versions of the non white dragon, which is stupid. Also i think metallics are more likely to mate with each other as they are less likely to hate each other. Why would a red dragon who views themselves as the kings and emperors of all other dragons mate with what they consider to be a lesser creature and the blues are so vain as to hate anyone who considers them to be inferior. Their past lore might have been different from current lore but if its even remotely close then the hybrid purple dragon would never have been created as a hybrid.
Agree fully with your video, wotc have been terrible care takers of DnD. I cant wait to see the setting you grow and create! you should look into the OSR its where real dnd is at and you can make and use so many ideas to use within your own campaign and games!
Purple in 3e/3.5 us different then deep dragon and it is far more powerful then a deep dragon.
No underground life
Purple thoriac the dragon bufo toad smoke if the bard
I think they should treat (deep dragon) in 5e as it's own thing & bring back the (purple dragon) as it was giving it mobility option like in 3.5e but bring back the older plasma breath that ignores all resistances & immunities.
Since purple dragon would ignore all resistance & immunity I say change the breath weapon d6's to a d4's as 2.5 instead of 3.5 average damage per role but it adds so much flavour.
Purple dragon could so easily be worked into a new adventure module but recent books by Wotc are pretty terrible which is why Fizbans that I had mixed feelings on as the last book I bought.
Happy with Fizbans at a 7/10 though it could have been so much more as at least the moonstone dragon was done well.
the humanoids dragon worshippers were done poorly mind to compared to old editions & the Gem dragons artwork is awful.
I don't like the direction they have taken 5e the last 2 to 3 years.
If they fvck up Vecna: Eve of Ruin coming 21st may 2024 then my interest in the hobby will slip & I will just stick to older content or mash old content into the 5e framework myself.
I appreciate that the 5e designers wanted to do something distinct with the deep dragon, and they did flesh out more lore than in previous editions ... but they wrecked the whole monster in the process.
I agree with what you wrote. They should have made a proper purple dragon, then made a spin-off dragon-kin like a "salamander dragon" or "fungus dragon" or a monstrosity that is distantly related to dragons.
@@esperthebardNo reason the purple dragon can still be done in a later book?
I never like the purple dragon being called deep dragon anyway.
'Deep' has no symbolism to purple.
creativity, imagination, independence, and a sense of adventure is what purple signified for romance.
Purple also represented royalty & dreams.
far better concepts for the purple dragon I think.
@@esperthebard I thought of an interesting concept for the purple dragon as every dragon has niece & it's layer.
Why not make the purple dragon the roamer that can't stand being in anyone place while treated as ab outcast 1/2 cast.
weaker breath weapon but ignores all resistance & immunity as mentioned.
I imagine the purple dragon from old art as a slender sleek being that you can never keep down or locked in one place.
I think movement though smaller cramped spaces as normal for 2 or 3 sizes smaller & make it have a highest speed on land of say 60=80ft etcetera of all the dragons would be am amazing vibe.
A young purple dragon sized large being able to even follow & hunt down small or tiny races would be a fun change of pace.
Long slender legs that that form flat with it's body to slither.
Purple dragon should be the roaming independent most serpent like of dragons.
A huge or Gargantuan purple dragon winding as it traverses though the corridors of a castle or keep as if a medium creature would be terrify to the players on sight & it's breath will guarantee damage even if of a lower d4 dies instead of d6's.
Put a very high stealth & dexterity with mobility as mentioned imagine getting a surprise round off as a purple dragon on a oblivious party with the breath attack mentioned.
The purple dragon should never be seen & those that do a rarely around for long after?
The fun of it & table flipped up but a perfe
You get no riches from the purple dragon all it wants is to have his creativity & imagination amused regardless of the cost to others,
To the purple dragon greatest treasure is to experience in new stimulation to feed it's imagination for entertainment as they are ever curious like most snakes that as soon as you open the tank they want to get out out to have look about or even a chance to absconder.
The red & blue dragons both have pride of might-destruction for red with blue as a patient tactician.
A purple dragons pride of manipulation showing it's self to only to a select while remaining hidden to all others as their pray question if the dragon is real or not & they aren't sure of they are dreaming-insane.
The purple dragon should want to induce madness into it's pray as it is akin to the sweetest nectar to them.
This whole approach would explain why purple dragons are common in the under dark but really large geographic area they can remain unseen with plenty of cover & obfuscation.
The best apex predators are the ones you never saw or coming.
A dragon so rare & so few survivor that many people even often doubt their existence as nothing more then camp fire story or a collective string of madness.
That's the sort of purple dragon I would like as it isn't the strongest or toughest but the most persistent predator like we humans as it selected pray it will never leaves alone for long & no uninterrupted sleep can be had by that the chaotic evil purple predates.
Yeah thank okay so here's a list He man Star Wars most of Marvel.And d c Dungeons and dragons war hammer.
I hate it when people can't come up with their own s***And they decide to get a ruined.Everything else that came before like lord of the way
god damn voice text Lord of the Rings.
Ironic.
I guess we can chalk it up to inbreeding or something lol
Cormyr knows the purple dragon is the best
But why is it okay to say "we shouldn't have to modify our dragon waaaah" but we can all agree we modify normal NPC levels and powers without any issue. You can just make a certain orc much more powerful than another orc because he's "a bigger badder orc in the tribe", without anyone moaning that we had to modify it. I don't get this take at all.
I love the lore and the world of DND, and while I don't have anyone to play the tabletop with I still enjoyed the books, lore videos, and video games. It's just a shame WOTC is determined to sterilize anything deemed "problematic" when no one ever had a problem in the first place. Just waters down into nothing.