Why Producers Suck at Business
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
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I hate to say it, but the audio engineering & production community generally sucks at business. I’ve been through it first-hand, so I know what the struggle is like…
Long hours, doing everything yourself, always chasing clients for money, and feeling like the only way to get ahead is to charge less than the other guy. This constant undercutting and undervaluing has created an industry where clients expect to pay as little as possible. And we only have ourselves to blame.
Check out this new video for my thoughts on how we got here, and how you can break out of this destructive pattern.
The 2 dislikes are the record label managers
lol
It's really nice to watch some business tips besides the regular mixing and mastering. 👏👏👏🤘🤘🤘
More please
Imagine if Netflix paid the actors, crews and dircetors as bad as Spotify pays artists, mixers and producers. There would be no content to stream at all. Making a professional production costs money. The people in the television and film industry don't work for some streaming pennies or because it looks good on their portfolio. They know what they are worth. Music professional should be aware that a race to the bottom ends... at the bottom. Don't work with people who don't value your talent or your profession... it's a road that leads nowhere.
Have you done the math on this? Spotify doesn't pay that bad. It takes something like 50 streams in order to generate as much income as one song sale based on standard physical album royalty rates.
Spotify just has a business model that doesn't allow them to pay much. If they paid 1 cent per stream or something they would go bankrupt, which sucks for the consumer that wants to listen to music, but also the band because they still don't get paid much
@@wdgaming1513 Again, the Spotify royalty rates are not that bad. I do this for a living, I promise you I'm not starving.
@@ClosetoHumanMusic yeah Spotify has one of the lowest rates for streaming service payouts and is still pretty good lol. Plus they have such a great platform in terms of reaching listeners. Ppl hate too fast
Jack Joseph Puig said in an interview that out of all the weddings he missed because of an album he worked on, he only remembers who's weddings it was, but not the album.
This interview was really sad imho. I love working with bands and mixing/producing, but it's not meant to ruin one's life - quite the opposite actually !
I think part of the reason is that people don't know that sound isn't just sound and things don't just sound like they do by luck.. people don't understand what audio work is. I see this in the live world too.. Lights, video, production, all get plenty hours, attention and resources.. then sound just gets "a few minutes at the end of the day if we can but you need to hurry because the next person needs to do his thing". "Can you turn that down, it's very loud, we're trying to work". People just have no idea what it takes to get a professional sounding product
Up to the point. I live in Russia, and nobody here with some money seem to take audio engineering process sereously. Anybody who has internet and some patience can get any music he wants basically for free. As for music makers - they are mostly hobbists using cracked software. Maybe it's just me, but I can't see ways for young artists to make income from recorded music. There's no broad demand on this work really... Only live shows are actually a paid job. That's the only reality I can see now. So I think doing great sounding live shows and documenting the event as a great live concert video is the thing. Maybe I am wrong...
Never got any business support from my family growing up... Never had any support from anyone... My WIFE and DOG are the reason my studio exists, and I only have to work for like 2-3 hours a day.
YOU are the reason I had access to knowledge... so yeah, I don't get out of bed for small amounts at all.
And now I am getting opportunities that would BLOW YOUR MIND...
Thanks for confirming something that you already taught me, Jordan!
That story about a band spending much more money on a music video than on the actual song.....sooooo relatable !
You're so right on this one. And Fomo is the worst. We producers really need to step up in our business game or burnout will be inevitable
I love how it was pointed out that video folks have figured out the game when audio folks haven't. I work in visual effects after giving up working in the music industry in 2011 and I can say that is absolutely true; I even left because I couldn't make a living. Now that I do what I do, people pay so much for my time even for non-visual projects like mixing regardless of the fact that I really only do music stuff as a hobby. If you're good at what you do, charge people for it, it feels amazing!
I love these topics and as an audio engineer with 20 years of experience, I find these videos much more helpful than tutorial videos. I would also love to see a video from you recommending us some business books. Thanks.
Two weeks ago he said something about creating plugins.I said that something has to go wrong.Pandemia is killing musicians and projects this is why he is looking for selling plugins like lots of them do now.And he said '' Dude, i donk know where you are taking your assuamptions from.This year was one of the best years in my carrera.And today he is crying.So was i right?Soon again he will ask if we are ready to be full stack producers and it will come back to his courses which are not free and not chip.Like always.Together what we have to do ?What he is asking for here?If i could charge £300 for track i would not have a reason to cry at all.With constant job?Even during pandemia as he said?The best year?And today life got what?A bit heavy?
Powerful video, Jordan. I recently made up my mind to take mixing seriously as my profession and aim go full-time within the next year, and this was exactly what I needed to see.
Austin at Make Pop Music has a great attitude. If you want him for your project, you send him the details of the project, then he'll come back with a price. The money factor is put up-front as a take-it-or-leave-it. He's not putting himself in the role of beggar, he's being the chooser.
Incredible video! The only thing I would disagree with is the notion that the undercutting that goes on in the engineering industry doesn’t happen in the videography or photography industries. It 100% does. As far as I’m concerned, the creative world as a whole is under constant attack by the “I’ll do it for cheaper” crowd. 🤦🏻♂️
Hey Jordon, great video on an interesting topic. I am a part time photographer and an aspiring mixing engineer. I'm finding as I research about the biz I find them very similar. The problem I find in Photography. is some really good photographers drive the prices down wanting volume when they should be realizing their talent and raise their prices to up the standard for everyone. It sounds like there is something very similar in the music biz. Everyone needs to decide to up their prices to start or you'll never get there. I'm new to mixing been mixing heavy for about 8 months and have learned a lot here. I can promise if I ever get paid for doing mixing. I'm going to start out at a price that pays me more than $5.00 hrs.
This is good. Please do not get too wrapped up w/ the personal opinions over production education, but this is definitely good stuff and a very welcomed refresh.
Thank you for bringing this up! I’ve spent most of my life working as a performer and the same mentality exists there. I have friends who were working in the 60s and 70s and they were making more then than we make now. But they had the union. I’m bridging over to more writing/producing now so without a union it’s up to us as individuals to stand up for what we deserve. And we need to do it not just for ourselves but for each other, for the music community.
Great video Jordan! Thank you so much for making great content!
So true which is exactly why musicians, especially here in Nashville, have such a hard time making money
I agree with you 100%. I would add that it’s not just producers though (obviously, that’s the focus of this channel); musicians in general have historically had poor business sense. The stories of musicians getting ripped off are numerous. And to me it makes sense that producers would fall into the same trap as it seems many of them started as musicians. It’s time we start taking care of ourselves and each other.
Fredrik Nordstrom (Opeth, At The Gates, Dark Tranquility etc etc) actually let the studio time ruin his marriage; he talked about getting divorced on the URM podcast. The worst part is that the host (Eyal Levi) didn't act surprised!
Agree with all of this, but you keep mentioning “charge your worth”. I think in this industry, prices are gaurded so someone new or fairly new has no idea where they even stand in terms of their pricing, then they price based off their clientele rather than the overall industry/profession.
If you’re a new wedding photographer, it’s pretty easy to go find out the price of most other photographers putting out similar work, good luck trying to find out how much your favorite producers, mixers etc are charging their clients.
Basically there is no standard for what things are “worth” in this industry so you’re left to just kind of make up number, and generally those numbers are on the low side.
Yeah exactly. I'm just starting out with my studio and I have no idea how much to charge people, i contacted other producers in my area and nobody gave me a clear answer either.
@@hyperionekeats2 and likely most won’t. The other downside of the gaurded pricing is that bands and artists ALSO don’t know how much to expect to pay for what they need. So the guy up the road charging $200/song sounds “reasonable” then find out another studio is charging $1,000/song they’re going to think you’re crazy no matter how much better their material is to the $200 guy. Some of the top dudes in this industry need to step up and elaborate on the pricing situation. A lot of them say charge what the market demands, but that doesn’t work if the market is saturated
Over the years I have found it best to show your pride in your work and charge the high side of the local average in your area. Once you find interested clients, you can offer a one time discounts to seal the deal. That way you make them feel special and they know your normal price is up front.
An interesting topic would be "How to pick a rate, how to charge and how to determine how much our work is worth"
I never heard anyone discuss that, that's probably why nobody charge enough, nobody knows when they stop to suck at mixing and what their work is really worth.
It's so subjective, even more when hundred of hours of work is juged within the 5 first seconds after pressing play.
Totally agree! If no one knows the standard, rates are gonna go down.
Air Hemstands has a great book on how to determine when to take gigs and for what price. He is speaking about musicians playing but his formula can be applied to all artists including recording engineers and producers.
This right in-line with my mentality this year. Thanks so much for posting these thoughts and solidifying my own growth in beliefs! Cheers
thank you for your clarity on this
I love these real talk type videos. Thank you so much for these, you’ve helped me in so many ways.
5:57 Economics class's 'perfect competition' 101. It's disgusting to see (at least in Brazil) pro mixers, far more experienced than most in my region, charging like 25 USD/song just to get the job...! If I lowered my prices this much (even tho I'm having to turn down on many projects due to covid) it wouldn't even be worth my time.
And 9:00 thankfully, by giving myself a studio break for a month I actually began to enjoy life despite the pandemic... even learned to love the grad course I renegated for so long. + easing the recording bug/GAS. It's totally worth it.
Thank you for talking about that. You're giving us an idea of how much is too cheap and how much is a more reasonable price with your 200$ vs 700$ example. I would love to know specifically how much you think we should rate for working on a song. Depending on the type of work : recording / mixing / composing etc... and according to our level of experience. I am personally leaning more towards composing and producing than mixing, and I find pretty difficult to put an actual price on it
Thank you for this video. So good to hear someone talk about the troubles of the industry. I started following you after buying a course and I really hope that I some day can start to mix bands. I'm really self conscious and always question my mixes.
if you follow jordan’s course you’ll have everything you need to confidently mix a record. listen to his words in this very video. it’s psychological. you are actually dealing with exactly what he is talking about. your beliefs about yourself, your work, the industry. that’s what’s holding you back, not your skills. i don’t have to know you to know that your mixes are better than you think. i can tell by the way you express your idea here. i’m self conscious too but life keeps telling me and showing me i have no reason to be, so i’m trying to listen.
Hi eye lets start now i Can send u My recordings ....
@@8KILLSTEP sure, what type of music is it?
@@Eyeolair a blend of Live And Electronic Music mixing two.opposote realityes death metal And 70s funk
@@Eyeolairif u want i Can hire You as a ghost mixing eng
I never charged a flat rate. Always by the hour. $700-$1,000 a song was probably still an average price. But that price goes up if the artist wants to waste your time because they don't want to listen to your advice on how to not fuck up their record.
Sooooo true. And I have been guilty of the exact same thing. Thank you Jordan for pointing this out to everyone. You are absolutely correct. I am making a change.
I thoroughly enjoy the business topics!! Such a great push to be better!
Couldn't agree more, thanks for sharing the wisdom \m/
Im not even in this business but spot on! Reasonable arguments
You're speaking my language Jordan. More rate transparency would give people the backbone to hold their prices. Producers also need to account for inflation to ensure the industry margins aren't getting whittled down over time. Also, producers that work faster and can sustain quality should be charging a premium since producing results more quickly is worth more to clients. Finally, there doesn't seem to be an understanding of supply and demand balance in this market which is 🗝️ in establishing fair market value.
Jordan always bringing the heat 💯
There are colleges of professionals that stablish official rates for jobs and nobody who are in that type of organizations can lower the rates below the standard.
And then, you cannot take responsability without a strong union that beats the shit out of the people who lower their rates detrimental for anyone else in the business.
If we all go by our own we will get screwd no matter what we do.
To many highly trained and educated producers, engineers and technicians make less money and
have fewer benefits (health insurance, 401 K retirement plan, paid vacations) than a minimum
wage service sector employee who has significantly less training and education.
People that work in the audio industry need to join together and lobby the reocord industry
for better working conditions and higher pay. Audio industry organizations and magazines that
profess to speak for those of us who work professionally (get paid for what we do) in audio
production need to support and lobby on our behalf for higher wages and better working
conditions.
Companies that produce and sell equipment and software used within the production segment of
the record industry need to support improvement in wages and condtions or eventually there will
be no customers who can afford their products.
We must organize and lobby those who control the money to help them see why change is important
within the record industry. Producers, technicians and engineers must be paid more and given
better benefits or the industry as a whole will eventually suffer through a reduced availablity
of qualified people who do production work and lower quality work.
Also, more must be done to foster a positive perception within society of those who work in the
production sector of the record industry.
I always thought that producing/mixing should be paid by the quality offered. My opinion is that the artists are to "blame" for this too. Why is this? Because they are ignoring the fact that a lot of mixers/producers are putting out low quality products and they're paying for that. They don't think to look for better quality...so...the rest of the better mixers/producers are lowering the fees, begin afraid of losing business.
In the end....you can see everywhere $50-150 for a mix no matter the quality. It's not fair 😮
I think the less of them don't think in a "business way" .... and I think the most home recorders its more hobby and less professional ... you can get good, but its a "pay" wall, I name it, you will never had 10 mics only for vocals and and and ...so your sound will never get, especially for bands , like the records from Soad, or Muse ...
hey Jordan, how would you recommend slightly less experienced engineers/producers get some work from more experienced pros doing their drum, vocal editing, mix prep ground work etc.? Is this the sort of thing less experienced engineers could get paid for? As you say the local but experienced players tend to be one--man or woman bands!
I agree with you but I think it is not correct to compare graphic designers or photographers with sound engineers. Everybody would like to have good wedding photos but who cares about a personal wedding metal song? Each pizzeria has a logo but who needs to listen to a corporate rock music of a local coffee shop? So I think it's more about lifestyle rather than business.
p.s. Can't wait April :)
Totally agree
Race to the bottom. All I can do is not be a willing participant in it. Thank you for talking about it though. Was starting to feel like I was looney tunes. You're a nice young man
Great video
Thanks Jordan, great video. What do you recommend for people who are just starting out in production? How do you find clientele and start to build consistent work for yourself?
one thing i have trouble with is trusting anyone, even a professional, to answer my emails and send out my quotes. i need to be the one doing that. a LOT would have to be in place for me to be able to stomach doing that. there’s no way for me to transfer my brain to an assistant so that they think like me when quoting. still trying to figure this out.
I totally understand, but once you start, it's easy. You'd be surprised how easy it is for someone to come in and do exactly what you're doing. You already have certain thought processes and "rules" that dictate how you respond and how you send quotes. Start writing those things down, then you can hand it off. This is the easiest thing to outsource
like I always say. know your worth, stick to your pricing and do an amazing job to the point that your clients are more than happy to pay you.
Great video. Your damn right!!!!!
Investment from record companies is/ was essentially a bank loan to the artists. If the artists have no money to recoup to repay the loan then the business model is unsustainable.
Great video and topic!
One thing, though, is not like that in the country I live (ex-communist block, Eastern Europe) - my day job was graphic/web design and if you look at the job ads in the local market - the salaries are humiliatingly low. And it is due to exactly what you talk about here - there's tons of people who are willing to work for low rates just in order to be in that niche. So, for someone with 17 years of experience in the field it's not good. Instead of working at convenient hours and be able to pay to assistants, I have to stay at someone else's offices while them trying to yell and me and play the "Big Boss" - people with almost no talent by the way.
Anyway, back to music industry, again - here at my country, if I mention let's say a 100 bucks for mixing a song, they'd probably burn me at the stake... That's why I guess I'll never be interested in mixing local bands. Which leads to what? Local bands (with a few exceptions) are badly tracked, which leads to bad mixes and of course - cheap mixes mean some bonus lowering of the overall quality. And then they complain that our country still has no world-famous band... Well, no wonder why... :)
The good thing about creative avenues these days is you can connect to clients in other areas over the internet
we are working for the EARS.....while others is only working for the EYES (graphic designer, videography, photographer). so what we do is some massive important shit for people senses.....
So far one of the main reasons for me not being full time is my concern about the earning potential in the modern Music industry during the pandemic(I will save what I really think for another conversation). All the professional musicians I know are broke and they are awesome musicians. I get told they wish they had done what I did and run music along side a Fulltime Job. But I see it differently. If you look at the top people they are great business minded individuals as well as great people. Who wants to work with an asshole?
6:00 This sentence is a little bit of a loop hole. Should the new person be charging more? Or should the pro be turning down work to continue to charge more than the new person? Or is this to say that there isn't enough work, which is what you often say isn't the case. So what is happening? What's going on with this? I genuinely don't know the answer to you pointing out that pros are reducing prices to compete with smaller audio production business.
Cameras are getting cheaper, you can also get video editing programs (Resolve) for free. Hell, you can even make 4k videos with a phone.
We should charge 50$ an hour minimum
Great video!
This would be great if when you said "we all need to" that everyone simultaneously did, but that's not realistic.
It all starts with individuals though. If you stop cutting your rates, the producer across town might hear what you're charging and realize he doesn't have to cut rates either. Snowball effect, 1 by 1.
@@hardcoremusicstudio agreed
@@hardcoremusicstudio it's a very frustrating predicament that traverses issues outside of the the music industry as well.
I think your right Jordan if we just accept less money then that's what we're gonna get
I suck at business bro. Time to change that
What do you recommend doing for full albums? Say I charge 250 a song and they want a 12 song album mixed. That total cost is 3000. I don't know many local bands who have that kind of cash to front and I want the business. Do you discount for full albums?
Sounds like they can’t afford a full record. I paid almost double for that for my last record for just mixing and mastering
early on, yes I discounted a bit for big projects, but eventually, no. You'd be surprised.
"Not many local bands have that kind of cash..." - this is completely in your head. Before i switched to mixing-only I was regularly getting $750-$1000 per song from local bands for record + mix.
Many people are making the same assumptions... but they don't test it. If you just assume they won't pay and drop your rates immediately, how do you know they wouldn't pay?
As someone who has been in those bands who can’t afford that cash up front I will say there are a lot of great options at your price point. I’ve recently quoted some great mixers around that pricing and received album discounts. I understand his point of having to collectively value your time and raise your rates. You have to have the portfolio first to do that (which you gain with great work at $250 a song). Also, as an artist I know I’ll never make my mixing and mastering money back. I’ll be happy to break even through streaming, merch, etc. I’m also not spending thousands on a video.
@@hardcoremusicstudio You make very valid points. My Fiance and I just typed out a very detailed price sheet for estimates thanks to this video, and I am definitely going to start charging more than what I used to. I've worked with a couple of well known artists, so I can probably get away with it. Many thanks for what you do!
Jordan's right. Can you argue charging as much as seasoned pros with no leverage? Probably not. But you CAN justify charging enough to eat and keep a roof over your head.
So what would be a proper price point for rates? ( genuine question btw...)
there is no one answer here. figuring out this question involves many steps. like, your expenses and overhead vs. what you need or want, your niche and it’s industry standards, all kinds of stuff. this is why it’s hard for people like jordan to tell you how much to charge. i’m in his course and another audio biz course and both of them are hesitant to hand out numbers. it’s up to YOU to decide, though it’s good to be informed by the standards, which can be Googled. i compiled a huge list of the rates i gathered over time to help me navigate finding my own.
A sustainable price: Costs plus some profit. Pay yourself at least minimum wage (include that in the costs). If that price doesn't get you clients you're better off enjoying it as a hobby while working at Wal-Mart.
The Six Figure Podcast by Brian Hood has a ton of insanely good advice just for that question
i heard you! and i raised my prices from $10 to $15!
INSPIRING! :)
What about fiverr, you can get plenty of good mixing engineer for nothing. How does it hurt this world ?
A lot of pros on blogs or RUclips channels tell beginners like myself they should start in the mixing business by offering their services for free. While I understand the idea (getting your first clients easily), I don't see how those clients you did mixes for free will accept to pay for the same thing later on. It doesn't feel right. What do you think?
The odd test mix for free for a potentially good client is OK when starting out. But yeah, you need to get out of doing free projects very quickly. I eventually started charging full rate for a test mix if a band/label asked (and they would often pay), otherwise I'd say - hey, you can already go on my website and hear dozens of my mixes. You don't need a test mix to know what you're getting!
You cover a lot of important tips in the video production industry! We love what you do, keep going. Anytime you're in Scottsdale reach out. If you can, direct message us @dmakproductions on IG and we can chat. You kill it!
not trying to be the half empty guy but.... as fast as technology its going i predict self mixing tecknology in 5more years we already have automated tools.
thus reminds me to the sign painters back in the 90s when vinyl lettering started there was no way back suddently anybody can do signs and hand made sign where history .my guess ...the money will be always on live sound not in albums . 5years ago we had poulin amps now we have 1000s of options its getting cheaper and easier every year thats why i didnt take an 18k grant for recording arts its done.
thats why pro mixers are now youtubers
What would you say is a good price to charge for someone able to do quality recording and mixing per songs or per hour?
I have a friend who mixes rap and hip-hop who charges a flat rate of $60/hr. Whether or not that is enough depends on how much time is spent on each song I guess.
I mean, if you are programing 'beats' for a rapper, then you might be spending a bit of time making it a decent idea.
But if they are coming in with a backing track and wanting to record vocals over that to produce a song from...you might be talking about $$240 a song (or less in some situations).
So it really depends. It may well be a better idea for those dealing with "bargain hunters" (with unrealistic expectations for producing a quality product) to charge a per song fee in that case.
It's up to you to decide which works best for the kind of music and clients you expect to cater to.
It's up to us as business people to decide what kind of image you want to portray. With that comes a decision and dedication to making sure every single project you release accurately and positively reflects the type of product that others can expect when coming to your studio.
What if you're not sure what you're worth?
the market will tell you. Give some quotes! Once you're consistently booked up 1-2 months in advance, you know you can raise your rates.
sooo... are we gonna start a union or what?
Unionize?
4:00 that's why my mother told me to get a "Real Job"
When I search you're channel it doesnt pop up. I have to type the whole thing. I'm guessing you are shadow banned because of your mention of being a Christian? You haven't really had any political stance and you have alot of followers so that's kind of weird