The thing with potions and their strength, is that people tend to focus on and play DPS carries. Very few players historically play supports/tanks/healers, especially at end-game. Should also be noted that you don't really have much in the way of Potion Hoarder while playing through the story and early difficulty levels. Going from 2/1/1 potions to 3/2/2 potions really doesn't matter too much, when coupled with your favorite support NPC in your party. Add to that the fact that you have a game with no set and defined roles and roles team compositions, and you have a recipe for disaster in any fight that you queue in with randoms (Which is most of the end-game) Oh look, a group of 4 Narmaya's.... Awesome. Oh look, 2 Narmayas, a Lancelot and a Percival. You may get the occasional Support Cagliostro or Stun Ferry if you're lucky or you're running in a pre-made, but otherwise, have fun keeping yourself alive with only 2 pots when most attacks on Proud can easily one-shot you left and right. Potion Hoarder is a means to off-set difficulty if you will. Or alternatively, a counter for how many mistakes you're allowed to do. If you're learning a fight or are struggling with some mechanics, slap potion hoarder on to give you more leeway. If you've mastered the fight already, slap more damage instead.
I don't think you're even going to be able to use those two pots if you're getting oneshot left and right. Autorevive and/or guts would probably be more useful for that. Joking, I know what you mean. On a serious note, if I were to have a real take on it, I think they can find a balance if they were to try to do so. You have games like Monster Hunter World where healer builds were viable options in multiplayer. You weren't punished for not having one on your team, but it was a boon to have one. Here, that healing just isn't necessary in comparison to the potions reliability and ease of use, so even the said healers you mentioned rarely, if ever, show up with those spells. And I think that's the issue the OP is having. In other words, they should at least do a little something to make healing spells a bit better so that people aren't sitting on a dead skill while others have more useful options. Personally, I think I want to see how future content plays out before I make any real opinions on this one way or the other. I agree with one of the commenters in the video that perhaps this is a baseline they have before they start really hammering in the difficulty.
@@Endeavor17I think it would be good if they took a look at healing/support spells some more, but I'll be honest, I don't think it's going to do much. The community, thanks to big and vocal content creators, has already pretty much settled on the meta. That being Terminus weapons with tyranny, etc. Meaning that healing will never really work in that space unless those healing spells have no cooldown. Even in the case of something like Monster Hunter, healing specs don't actually work. They exist yes, and some people play it for the luls, but really nobody uses that at end-game because most try-hards insist on going low defense max offense, getting one-shot and carted by even moderately strong attacks. Even then, people can stack and spam self potions and self-healing, can go back to camp to restock, or make near immortal builds while not sacrificing damage. The issue isn't so much that healing is underwhelming, or that it can't work, it's that everyone values damage above all else. I know it's "only" been a month, but frankly it's too late to change the online/co-op community to swear off of 4 DPS meta. As long as there is no trinity like tank/healer/dps for groups or some kind of mechanic that outright requires you to bring a support or tank, no amount of balance will make healers/supports viable. I also in part blame damage cap as a sigil and how it is implemented, which heavily emphasizes damage stacking, cannibalizes most sigil slots and further makes buffs/supports useless.
I'll also add that I'm fighting Proud difficulty things for the past week and I STILL haven't gotten the potion use achievement or the revive teammates one, mainly because I play offline with Cagliostro (previously captain) support and a non Tyranny build on my Io/Narmaya mains. Provided you don't ping-pong off of every attack and don't do so continuously, a support like Cagli with a decent cooldown build, nothing fancy, is enough. Good luck convincing the community to swear off of a 4th DPS though.
I also do not have this achievement, as I have been trying to see how far I can get using no potions (I realized halfway through the story I hadn't used any yet and decided to commit), and have completed all the content doing so, so I too can see the viability of healing spells. When it comes to Monster Hunter World, I don't think I remember healing not working. I used to do a lot of pugs in that game and finding people with healing utility and group healing decorations was pretty common, and it never felt like the team was held back because of it. But as you say, there will always be people who swear by meta dps. And I think that's fine. I think people should still be able to build towards that meta dps, but I think it would be cool in this game if they made it so people building more towards support will be viable as well in a multiplayer setting. But even in those kinds of scenarios, yeah I agree there will still be people wanting the meta 4 dps style. That usually seems to be the case. But they can make a premade if they hate seeing a support that much in a pug setting. Also, I really appreciate this discussion and thanks for being respectful. I always enjoy talking about this kind of stuff and seeing other's thoughts.@@vtxshiva
@@Endeavor17What I meant by "healing not working" in Monster Hunter, is that once you hit the end-game, it becomes mostly irrelevant. You "can" run a healer build, just as you "can" run it in Relink, it's just that nobody really does it and there are better more effective ways to play than gimp yourself into an un-fun heal bot role. In MonHun, each player can run 20(10+10) healing potions, 3 (2+1) instant max healing pills, plus 3? aoe healing powders by default. You can go back to camp and restock for even more healing, AND you can easily get insane survivability with "immortal"/lifesteal builds once you actually optimize your gear. You "can" run mushroomancer/ aoe heal build against late-game bosses, but really, you shouldn't, unless you're going out of your way to help newbies or friends out or something. (hint you can do this in Relink too with cagli/captain, cooldown reduction+ potion hoarder blue pots) You should build for damage first, survivability/comfort second (or the other way around if you're not yet comfortable with the fights or just want to chill), and then dead last, if you still have deco slots you can put some aoe/healing convenience to round it all up. It's also worth noting that BUFFS actually do something in MHW, which further amplifies offense and defense, making a dedicated healer/support role even more redundant. Even hunting horn mains will spec for damage since buffs are more or less just on a rotation that you have up as part of your loop. When I first started out and progressed through MHW/MHR with imperfect builds and gear, yea, having a Mushroomancer/healer friend was nice since I didn't have a bunch of healing items on hand and made timing mistakes, but once you get the hang of it and start building properly, it quickly becomes irrelevant. My build at end-game is a pseudo-immortal build where I can face tank almost anything even solo and can life-steal my way back to full via attacking. Potion healing really isn't on my mind most of the time and having a support would do nothing for me either. My damage might not be the highest, but my uptime on a boss is almost 100% while ignoring most mechanics and just going "head empty" Unga Bunga on them. I have to go out of my way to get carted against anything that isn't Fatalis or similar. It's from that end-game angle that I'm saying that healing/support isn't useful in either MonHun or Relink. If you're progressing through low/high rank in MonHun, or up to Maniac in Relink, sure supports can be useful and stuff, but once you're Mid-way through Master Rank or Proud, you'll have comfort/convenience sigils that give you better evasion, invicinibility, stronger blocks, auto-revives, lifesteal, regen, immunity to statuses, etc. Having a healer/support just doesn't matter. It would require a large shift in the design of the game to make healers/supports a staple of the end-game and in a world of free-for-all co-op, that just won't stick. It's better to just "force" every player individually to "care" about their own survivability and give them the tools to make it work.
15:09 Half-slots are definitely not free, and alot of defensive options and attack options go on there. Autorevive, Guts, Uplift, Nimble Onslaught, etc. all typically belong on that spot. And once you're replacing your Damage Caps with Gamma/Alpha, that's even more reason to treasure those slots.
Ain't nobody gonna use Support abilities that do heals because the community is focused mostly on damage and faster clears. Without Potion Hoarder you also need to consider then if your only source of healing is Captain, Ferry, Io, or Rosetta outside of potions how does that affect online play with randomly matched characters. I think a cooldown like another commenter said works better than limiting the heals to force support abilities in a game not turned or designed around having a dedicated healer/support.
They don't have make it where you need a dedicated support if I had to have a take on it. There are plenty of other games out there where you can have a viable support player and have strong potions, such as Monster Hunter World. But because of how it was balanced, you were never punished for not having someone who could heal the team, but it was boon when you did. So a similar balance could perhaps be found here. And yeah, I like the idea of cooldowns as well.
Agree. I do think a potion cooldown needs to exist. Like 10 seconds for Mega, 5 for Regular, 10 for Group and then 20 second for Revival. I think those are fair.
I don't see this as a problem at all, I don't even use potions if I'm playing seriously against a boss that I've pretty much memorized. My personal hot take though, blocking in this game is OP, you can literally hold the block button while dodging/doing a combo and you take zero damage if you get hit. I believe it should be nerfed.
As someone who has been playing the entire game without using potions (I realized I hadn't used any halfway through the story and decided to commit), I also don't have too much of a hand in it. I'm mostly just curious about people's thoughts on it.
Honestly I disagree entirely. “Healing skills are useless.” First off, no theyre not. Theyre good to have on ai or for you to use to heal ai because they seemingly either dont use potions or if they do its erratic and unpredictable. Second, yes theyre not very useful in multiplayer. And they never will be. Because if they were “useful” in the way that people seem to expect, they would make the game even more trivial than potion hoarder allegedly already does. People expect to be able to build a pure healer like theyre playing an mmo. But this isnt an mmo. Youre not expected to have a healer. Youre expected to block and dodge or build to be more durable. Not to mention, even if potion hoarder was removed, people still wouldnt use healing skills if they were playing seriously. Because playing a pure dps or a dps with some support buffs is just better in a game like this. Because killing a boss much quicker is better than having a healer.
As someone who plays 99% of the time offline with the AI, I agree that healing can be useful. I've gone out of my way to complete the game with no potions used and plan on seeing if I can do the same with Lucilius and future fights. I think the problem the OP is presenting is that with potion hoarder and with how powerful potions are in general, healing spells feel useless by comparison since they do everything a healing spell does but faster, better and easier. And everybody gets them. I think that's the part I agree with. Again, I want to see how future content will play out before I make any suggestions since I agree with one of the commenters in the video that this is probably just baseline survivability they have for us before they make us glad the potions and potion hoarder are as they are. Personally, I think if they're gonna have healing spells be obsolete in comparison or it's just better not to have those spells as you say, they should replace them with something actually useful.
The thing with potions and their strength, is that people tend to focus on and play DPS carries. Very few players historically play supports/tanks/healers, especially at end-game.
Should also be noted that you don't really have much in the way of Potion Hoarder while playing through the story and early difficulty levels. Going from 2/1/1 potions to 3/2/2 potions really doesn't matter too much, when coupled with your favorite support NPC in your party.
Add to that the fact that you have a game with no set and defined roles and roles team compositions, and you have a recipe for disaster in any fight that you queue in with randoms (Which is most of the end-game)
Oh look, a group of 4 Narmaya's.... Awesome. Oh look, 2 Narmayas, a Lancelot and a Percival. You may get the occasional Support Cagliostro or Stun Ferry if you're lucky or you're running in a pre-made, but otherwise, have fun keeping yourself alive with only 2 pots when most attacks on Proud can easily one-shot you left and right.
Potion Hoarder is a means to off-set difficulty if you will. Or alternatively, a counter for how many mistakes you're allowed to do. If you're learning a fight or are struggling with some mechanics, slap potion hoarder on to give you more leeway. If you've mastered the fight already, slap more damage instead.
I don't think you're even going to be able to use those two pots if you're getting oneshot left and right. Autorevive and/or guts would probably be more useful for that.
Joking, I know what you mean.
On a serious note, if I were to have a real take on it, I think they can find a balance if they were to try to do so. You have games like Monster Hunter World where healer builds were viable options in multiplayer. You weren't punished for not having one on your team, but it was a boon to have one. Here, that healing just isn't necessary in comparison to the potions reliability and ease of use, so even the said healers you mentioned rarely, if ever, show up with those spells. And I think that's the issue the OP is having.
In other words, they should at least do a little something to make healing spells a bit better so that people aren't sitting on a dead skill while others have more useful options.
Personally, I think I want to see how future content plays out before I make any real opinions on this one way or the other. I agree with one of the commenters in the video that perhaps this is a baseline they have before they start really hammering in the difficulty.
@@Endeavor17I think it would be good if they took a look at healing/support spells some more, but I'll be honest, I don't think it's going to do much. The community, thanks to big and vocal content creators, has already pretty much settled on the meta. That being Terminus weapons with tyranny, etc. Meaning that healing will never really work in that space unless those healing spells have no cooldown.
Even in the case of something like Monster Hunter, healing specs don't actually work. They exist yes, and some people play it for the luls, but really nobody uses that at end-game because most try-hards insist on going low defense max offense, getting one-shot and carted by even moderately strong attacks. Even then, people can stack and spam self potions and self-healing, can go back to camp to restock, or make near immortal builds while not sacrificing damage.
The issue isn't so much that healing is underwhelming, or that it can't work, it's that everyone values damage above all else. I know it's "only" been a month, but frankly it's too late to change the online/co-op community to swear off of 4 DPS meta.
As long as there is no trinity like tank/healer/dps for groups or some kind of mechanic that outright requires you to bring a support or tank, no amount of balance will make healers/supports viable.
I also in part blame damage cap as a sigil and how it is implemented, which heavily emphasizes damage stacking, cannibalizes most sigil slots and further makes buffs/supports useless.
I'll also add that I'm fighting Proud difficulty things for the past week and I STILL haven't gotten the potion use achievement or the revive teammates one, mainly because I play offline with Cagliostro (previously captain) support and a non Tyranny build on my Io/Narmaya mains. Provided you don't ping-pong off of every attack and don't do so continuously, a support like Cagli with a decent cooldown build, nothing fancy, is enough. Good luck convincing the community to swear off of a 4th DPS though.
I also do not have this achievement, as I have been trying to see how far I can get using no potions (I realized halfway through the story I hadn't used any yet and decided to commit), and have completed all the content doing so, so I too can see the viability of healing spells.
When it comes to Monster Hunter World, I don't think I remember healing not working. I used to do a lot of pugs in that game and finding people with healing utility and group healing decorations was pretty common, and it never felt like the team was held back because of it.
But as you say, there will always be people who swear by meta dps. And I think that's fine. I think people should still be able to build towards that meta dps, but I think it would be cool in this game if they made it so people building more towards support will be viable as well in a multiplayer setting. But even in those kinds of scenarios, yeah I agree there will still be people wanting the meta 4 dps style. That usually seems to be the case. But they can make a premade if they hate seeing a support that much in a pug setting.
Also, I really appreciate this discussion and thanks for being respectful. I always enjoy talking about this kind of stuff and seeing other's thoughts.@@vtxshiva
@@Endeavor17What I meant by "healing not working" in Monster Hunter, is that once you hit the end-game, it becomes mostly irrelevant. You "can" run a healer build, just as you "can" run it in Relink, it's just that nobody really does it and there are better more effective ways to play than gimp yourself into an un-fun heal bot role.
In MonHun, each player can run 20(10+10) healing potions, 3 (2+1) instant max healing pills, plus 3? aoe healing powders by default. You can go back to camp and restock for even more healing, AND you can easily get insane survivability with "immortal"/lifesteal builds once you actually optimize your gear.
You "can" run mushroomancer/ aoe heal build against late-game bosses, but really, you shouldn't, unless you're going out of your way to help newbies or friends out or something. (hint you can do this in Relink too with cagli/captain, cooldown reduction+ potion hoarder blue pots)
You should build for damage first, survivability/comfort second (or the other way around if you're not yet comfortable with the fights or just want to chill), and then dead last, if you still have deco slots you can put some aoe/healing convenience to round it all up. It's also worth noting that BUFFS actually do something in MHW, which further amplifies offense and defense, making a dedicated healer/support role even more redundant. Even hunting horn mains will spec for damage since buffs are more or less just on a rotation that you have up as part of your loop.
When I first started out and progressed through MHW/MHR with imperfect builds and gear, yea, having a Mushroomancer/healer friend was nice since I didn't have a bunch of healing items on hand and made timing mistakes, but once you get the hang of it and start building properly, it quickly becomes irrelevant. My build at end-game is a pseudo-immortal build where I can face tank almost anything even solo and can life-steal my way back to full via attacking. Potion healing really isn't on my mind most of the time and having a support would do nothing for me either. My damage might not be the highest, but my uptime on a boss is almost 100% while ignoring most mechanics and just going "head empty" Unga Bunga on them. I have to go out of my way to get carted against anything that isn't Fatalis or similar.
It's from that end-game angle that I'm saying that healing/support isn't useful in either MonHun or Relink. If you're progressing through low/high rank in MonHun, or up to Maniac in Relink, sure supports can be useful and stuff, but once you're Mid-way through Master Rank or Proud, you'll have comfort/convenience sigils that give you better evasion, invicinibility, stronger blocks, auto-revives, lifesteal, regen, immunity to statuses, etc. Having a healer/support just doesn't matter.
It would require a large shift in the design of the game to make healers/supports a staple of the end-game and in a world of free-for-all co-op, that just won't stick. It's better to just "force" every player individually to "care" about their own survivability and give them the tools to make it work.
15:09 Half-slots are definitely not free, and alot of defensive options and attack options go on there. Autorevive, Guts, Uplift, Nimble Onslaught, etc. all typically belong on that spot. And once you're replacing your Damage Caps with Gamma/Alpha, that's even more reason to treasure those slots.
Ain't nobody gonna use Support abilities that do heals because the community is focused mostly on damage and faster clears. Without Potion Hoarder you also need to consider then if your only source of healing is Captain, Ferry, Io, or Rosetta outside of potions how does that affect online play with randomly matched characters. I think a cooldown like another commenter said works better than limiting the heals to force support abilities in a game not turned or designed around having a dedicated healer/support.
They don't have make it where you need a dedicated support if I had to have a take on it.
There are plenty of other games out there where you can have a viable support player and have strong potions, such as Monster Hunter World. But because of how it was balanced, you were never punished for not having someone who could heal the team, but it was boon when you did. So a similar balance could perhaps be found here.
And yeah, I like the idea of cooldowns as well.
Agree. I do think a potion cooldown needs to exist. Like 10 seconds for Mega, 5 for Regular, 10 for Group and then 20 second for Revival. I think those are fair.
I like this idea of cooldowns.
Wow this is a really good idea
I don't see this as a problem at all, I don't even use potions if I'm playing seriously against a boss that I've pretty much memorized. My personal hot take though, blocking in this game is OP, you can literally hold the block button while dodging/doing a combo and you take zero damage if you get hit. I believe it should be nerfed.
As someone who has been playing the entire game without using potions (I realized I hadn't used any halfway through the story and decided to commit), I also don't have too much of a hand in it. I'm mostly just curious about people's thoughts on it.
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Honestly I disagree entirely.
“Healing skills are useless.”
First off, no theyre not. Theyre good to have on ai or for you to use to heal ai because they seemingly either dont use potions or if they do its erratic and unpredictable.
Second, yes theyre not very useful in multiplayer. And they never will be. Because if they were “useful” in the way that people seem to expect, they would make the game even more trivial than potion hoarder allegedly already does.
People expect to be able to build a pure healer like theyre playing an mmo. But this isnt an mmo. Youre not expected to have a healer. Youre expected to block and dodge or build to be more durable.
Not to mention, even if potion hoarder was removed, people still wouldnt use healing skills if they were playing seriously. Because playing a pure dps or a dps with some support buffs is just better in a game like this. Because killing a boss much quicker is better than having a healer.
As someone who plays 99% of the time offline with the AI, I agree that healing can be useful. I've gone out of my way to complete the game with no potions used and plan on seeing if I can do the same with Lucilius and future fights.
I think the problem the OP is presenting is that with potion hoarder and with how powerful potions are in general, healing spells feel useless by comparison since they do everything a healing spell does but faster, better and easier. And everybody gets them. I think that's the part I agree with.
Again, I want to see how future content will play out before I make any suggestions since I agree with one of the commenters in the video that this is probably just baseline survivability they have for us before they make us glad the potions and potion hoarder are as they are.
Personally, I think if they're gonna have healing spells be obsolete in comparison or it's just better not to have those spells as you say, they should replace them with something actually useful.