A Tale of Two Spectravideos
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- Today we have two SVI 328s, but they're different revisions: The original MKI, and a the cost-down version, the MKII. Let's open them up and find out what the differences are exactly.
Then we'll do a full restoration and we'll compare two different ways to clean the keycaps (one of them requires no work beyond removing the keys!).
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Noel, 14:33 The unsoldered holes below the keyboard ribbon are the right pitch for your connector, It's just in two sections, (like the keyboard cable). They have traces connecting them. I think Spectravideo put them there in case they wanted a keyboard connector.
Ooh, you're probably right!!! I need to check that. Thanks!
@@NoelsRetroLab I took a screen grab and zoomed in. I could see the traces, I selected and copied the pinheader you were holding and it matched up perfectly with the holes. MS Paint can be quite useful at times. :)
@@frankowalker4662 The original one seems to have a 2.5mm pitch. I roughly compared the run out (seems to be half a step) and split the difference between 24 pins.
I was thinking along similar lines. I couldn't eyeball if the pitch was different or not, but it immediately appeared that if the connector were cut in two that each shorter piece would have less cumulative drift for each section's far ends and would work in the vias.
I came here to say the same thing. That unpopulated row looks like a standard pitch connector would work.
Today I learned two things: a new method to clean keys and that Noel LOVES greek yogurt :D
That I do! 😃
This was my first computer in 1984. Was a mk II. This brings back a lot of memories. There's not a lot of content on this computer, so these videos are much appreciated.
I replaced the soldered / glued keyboard connection in my SV328 MK I with 2 2.5 mm 12-pin connectors from TE Connectivity a year or so ago. I think I had trouble finding a 12-wire ribbon cable to match so I just used individual 20 or 22 gauge wires. This worked well though the wires I used were a little too stiff and too thick so it was a tight fit. The connectors cost about $1 for a male and female, so about $2 + shipping.
MkII comes with a massive sticker saying "80kb RAM", and then they remove the text saying "29192 Bytes Free" when it boots. mmmm? I think the marketing dept got involved and asked for the value to be removed as people will feel ripped off when they market 80Kb of ram but by the time you have booted you've only got 30Kb left.
Oh! You know, you're totally right!!! I didn't make that connection, but that's 100% correct! 👍
Thanks for this awesome video!
These plastic ribbon cables seems horrible and really fragile! Why would they use it? Was it really cheaper than soldering some wires?
Nice to see someone else using the Polident key cleaning method. I've used this on several keyboards too and I'm always impressed with how well it works, and it's so easy!
I tried it on my newly acquired Commodore 128 after watching this video and it works a treat 🙂. So much easier than cleaning each key cap individually. If only I had known about this years ago!
2.5 pitch connector. Good luck to find that.
Right? That's what I was thinking, which seems insane. That may be the reason they didn't put a real connector in the first place!
English vs Metric
I suppose its not too surprising the denture tablets work so well, they are supposed to remove staining from plastic teeth and remove oily food residue, and the gunge on keyboards is oil from peoples fingers and dust. Certainly would make a great pre-process for retrobriting too, if keys need it.
Aren't dentures typically ceramic though? Feels like they might corrode plastic.
@@Eddies_Bra-att-ha-grejer While the teeth are indeed ceramic, the plate that they are set into are usually either a nylon polymer or an acrylic. Source: my father used to make dentures, crowns, and bridges.
Sinister plot for a scenario of why the the letter E sticker was there: They where kidnappers and putting together a ransom note by using letter stickers.
They ended up sending a misspelled note because they couldn't find the E 😃
Seria muy interesante que dejaras de lado los semi-MSX y abordes de lleno los MSX completos. Un Phillips NMS 8250, un Sony HB-501P, un Panasonic FS-A1 o un Yamaha CX5MII. Hay muchas marcas y muchos modelos. Es todo un mundo lleno de posibilidades y peroféricos. Un saludo y enhorabuena por tu trabajo. Disfruto de tus videos.
I had the SVI 328 Mk II. Unfortunately, it wasn't a REAL MSX computer (the SVI 728 was).
The MSX assembly code you found on magazines didn't run on it.
On the other hand, the BASIC code (unless it didn't involve assembly routines) did work fine.
I have tried using Corega pads to clean the keys and it works great. Now I want to bleach them with hydrogen peroxide and a UV light. I only have a single U.V led that I use to cure the mask in repairs, I don't know what result it will give. They are the keys of an Amstrad CPC6128 that are somewhat yellow. Any suggestions ??. Thank you for your channel and for your countless tips. Greetings from Malaga.
I remember seeing those computers for the first time on 1985. My father and a neighbour took me to a shop to upgrade my Spectrum from 16k to 48k, and that day I saw and tested a lot of computers: Amstrad CPC 464, those SVI, Commodore 64, Philips VG 8020, Sony Hit Bit, and Sinclair QL...
Well, I want to remove the yellow from the keys of my Amstrad CPC 6128 and I don't know if the hydrogen peroxide and ultraviolet light would look better. What do you think?? Any better method ?? Thanks
I brew beer at home and to clean equipment I use "Vanish Oxi Action Powder Fabric Stain Remover" or the cheaper equivalent from a bargain shop. I have not tested it on a keyboard but I think I might have a go now.
Hello, I have already managed to whiten the keys of the Amstrad CPC 6128, I used hydrogen peroxide and U.V light and they were spectacular. Before I clean them with the Corega tablets that goes very well and then I applied the peroxide and light. Greetings
Wow... that's the first time I've heard of using denture tabs for the keys. I'm just as surprised at the results as Noel. I'm definitely going to file that one away for use later.
Ok, now I can't wait for the SVI-CAS...
Just hope it's something I can make myself (and having fun doing it) 😁
Perhaps try an ultrasonic cleaner next. They are good for also cleaning PCBs. Now I'm wandering how good denture cleaning would work on PCBs.
The keyboard connector pitch is 2.5 mm, not 2.54mm. It was used in former USSR and few European countries. I had old ICs from USSR, Germany, Tesla made that had 2.5mm spaced pins. Also, there are 2.5mm board connectors, still not sure about large number of pins.
Also, I think that the row of extra contacts above are 2.54mm spaced and can use them even they split in two the keyboard connector. As a plus, two small connectors are easier to remove than a big one.
14:13 Ah, the infamous "metric inches". They made it 2.5mm pitch. Someone looked at it and said "gee, 2.54 is almost 2.5, that's just 40 microns difference, that's nothing". Well, it's nothing on the first pin, it's not nothing on the 10th pin.
OK I don't mean to be rude (for once) but the "cleaning agents clean things?!?!?!??!?!" that you get with a LOT of modern Internet people who work with old hardware is somewhat amusing.
Im wondering of Spectravideo and Spectravision were the same company? I recognise the logo of the MK1 and as soon as I saw that, on the video, i recall 2 games I have for my Atari 2600, The Challenge of Nexar, and Cross Force. 2 awesome games!
Nice video again about my favorite computer from my childhood. I have 2 328 mkII machines and they both print the amount of free memory at startup. Interesting that your version does not do that. What does PRINT FRE(0) tell you?
FYI not everyone with dentures is super old lol. Some of us live in countries with expensive dental care we couldn't afford in our 20s. Using those tablets to clean keyboards makes perfect sense though. They are essentially designed to clean the exact same thing.
I've noticed in your videos you get a lot of spanish Speccys and such... But in this video I'm noticing your products like the denture tablets, "griego" yoghurt tub, and the multi cleaner are all labelled in spanish. Are you in Spain?
Really cool. I slightly prefer the look of the first version. But those keyboard connectors.. Brr! Still, I had seen them before and always wondered.. But nobody I knew bought one…
You can also get old stickers off with furniture polish. Good if you don't have any WD40.
dental tablets: reminds me of how I clean my deep fryer pot by filling it with boiling water and adding two dishwasher tablets. (and considering that dentures and dishes come in contact primarily with foodstuff, it shouldn't be surprising if they have the same effect.)
@18:36 you can use the brand name called "Polident", here in the U.S. You could also try an Ultrasonic cleaner with a few drops of dishsoap.
I love my Spectravideo 328. Getting a lot of use out of it now that I have the SVI-CAS.
20:00 I wonder if thats oxygen the tablets are producing. using a warm peroxide/water mix may well be a way to retrobrite them evenly as they are agitated as they brite.
couldn't you make a "short" basic program to read the ROM and calculate a checksum?
There is one more cleaning trick, air conditioner detergent.
Its used diluted whit water, mostly safe on plastic. But test first.
I was surprised that it melts industrial grade marker pen, whit water mix.
Could the round voltage regulator be replaced with either a newer type 7805? I seem to remember that this type can be pretty hot (not that the other isn't). Just curious... I saw on the other that it seemed to have the regular one we normally see.
What do you hope works the tablets or the recommendation of walking sticks 😂
I just put my keys and plastics in the dishwasher with regular dishwasher powder
I don' t know if the connectors' holes are the right pitch indeed as Franco said, but if you have such issues with PCBs in general, I would suggest you to cut that pin row in smaller rows and bend their pins slightly, in order to fit to where you want to put them.
And in order to replace that disgusting transparent ribbon-like nightmare, I would suggest you to use some flat cable. Either by slaughtering a floppy cable on the altar of retro-re-animation of other monsters, or by using some of the readily available ones that exist in the market. Probably you already know this, better than me...
P.S. That bucket which once held a yogurt like dessert, what EXACTLY brand is it? It contains some monograms/combinations of Greek letters, but it' s totally incoherent...
I forgot to mention that I did the same thing on a pair of MMS130 MULTIMEDIA SPEAKER SYSTEM" from PHILIPS, back in 2001, which didn' t like you replacing their volume potentiometer(50 KOhm). So what they did, was to put an extra pin among the other ones, PLUS put two extra resistors above those pins and coat them with some ceramic material, in order to hide them... So, I had to buy a new potentiometer(100 KOHm), two more in order to put them in parallel, PLUS the other two inside the potentiometer itself and use the old bracket of that potentiometer as well.
We are talking about the ultimate Frankenstein' s monster, but it still works, till today!!!
This is what PHILIPS didn' t want me to do and go buy a new speaker set, after just one year of use(less, actually)!
The E ? it look like someone made black mail letters near it, call the cops.... ;)
I had the MKII it was a great computer. I spent lots of hours playing Sasha on all difficulty levels.
That game is absolutely bonkers! So hard!! 😃
Your pin header is 1/10"=2.54mm but the PCB is 2.5mm pinch
For an small acount of pins they are compatible but not for a lot of pins.
Agreed - the pitch of the connector looks to be 2.5mm
I came for the shirt i wasn't disappointed haha keep up the awesome work
Noel que es el spray que le has hechado para quitar la pegatina de la barra espaciadora que tengo el inglés de egb de los nacionales 🤣
I like the tidiness of those boards but I don't understand your reasoning behind having many logic chips instead of just one ULA. Isn't it far more easy to replace the ULA with a known working one and automatically test the whole logic function? Am I missing something?
You're right from that point of view. The problem is that the ULA is a custom chip that hasn't been manufactured in 30-40 years, so there are simply not replacements out there unless they came out of another SVI 328. The individual chips however are still manufactured and can be replaced very easily.
Denture tablets are good for cleaning the bottom of the toilet to just drop one in all done 😊
WOW, my twit made it into the video ! ! Great video BTW. !
They were sure afraid of these things falling apart in shipping with the hot glue and Thread Lock (brand name in the U.S.) on the screws.
Very true!
Space bars always make me nervous when I'm removing/applying the keys. :)
For sure. You have to be really careful with those! You never know how exactly they're going to be attached underneath.
Hey the missing E from the Commodore guys so they had to spell it KERNAL! 😏😏
🤣🤣🤣
Regarding cleaning the key caps. I do it this way (since >20 years): get a nylon net bag with zipper (Amazon, local drug store), put all caps in it except the space bar which may break due to its size and drop the bag into the washing machine with your laundry (
I always cringe when they do that. Yes you can dry it out but treated drinking water contains a lot of chemicals that may cause corrosion over time. I never see them washing them afterwards with a neutral cleaning liquid.
@@hanznel8488 Now that you mention it: yes you are probably right. Besides: I have been working for a company manufacturing dishwashers for commercial purposes (hotels, restaurants,...) and the chemicals they use are not suited for a home dishwasher. It would destroy the seals!
You may clean it reliable with osmose water or at least distilled water.
Usas productos españoles. Vives en España?
What about testing a small ultrasonic cleaner?
It was nice to see the two side by side. Love the new key cleaning method that looked to work really well, I will definitely have to try it.
Before you use the TZ device, install a slightly larger fuse, as it does increase the current draw a tiny bit, and if the fuse is a little old it will blow.
Love the Spectravideo shirt!
Thanks! Oh good tip on the fuse. Do you know the fuse characteristics off the top of your head (or know where I can find them)? Cheers.
@@NoelsRetroLab Use a 400mA M205 fuse.
LMAO I feel you on the amazon recommendations. One time I bought presents for my niece who was like 5. I got bombarded. I'm like IT WAS CHRISTMAS AND THEY WERE GIFTS!!!! They even had the "this is a gift" checkbox checked. sigh.......
The sticker was definitely also on the first SV328, so that was not a difference between the two.
Oh, I didn't realize that! Interesting. Thanks!
I remember when I saw Adrian Black repairing a TI-99 4A. I HATED it because it was soooooo combersome to work on. I felt bad just watching him go through that............Then I saw you repairing one of these things with all the hot glue. ugggg What the hell were they thinking when they made these things? These is cheap but still good, and then there is cheap and crappy.
hmmm that first one the hot glue isn't as obvious. It's still horrible that it's all attached together.
that second one isn't nearly as bad. It's more like the TI-99 4A with it's single connector. However even that's better because it's the power board that's soldered like that if I recall. This is the keyboard.
Very interessting Noel, and thanks for sharing the trick with the Corega tabs... I could give it a try with my Amiga 500 keys within the near future.. As always, thumbs up for the video! Michael
Did you see the photo of a SV-318 on wiki that has a knobby miniature joystick built-in to the computer case! Spectravideo made the quickshot joystick so it makes sense.
With the denture cleaner, they may now slightly glow under UV. I seem to remember that cleaners of that sort 'improves' whiteness by amping the amount of the blue end of the spectrum reflected from the surface.
Useless fact about dentures, in the 'old days' they used to use radioisotope salts to make the teeth look brighter (natural dentine has phosphors that faintly glow so the dentures with the 'uranium glow' looked more 'real')
So, your keys probably are more bluish, but it's at the edge of human perception, reducing yellows, and possibly glowing under black light. :)
Fun to learn new way to clean keycaps. Also I hate hot glue with ugly hard wire ribbon.
It's ironic that you put up a new video on the day I learn I may be moving to Spain. lol
I found the song you use, Funky Stars, on Spotify. I love it.
Denture tabs or denture spaces?
Hi Noel - do you have the + and * keys on the wrong way around on one of those?
Indeed I do! I got the back in incorrectly in one of them. All fixed now. Oops! 😃
Loving the SV videos
_Translator:_
I like your channel. More than that guy from the basement 😉 Mainly by the length of the video. I don't have time for an hour-long video. 20 minutes is perfect 👍👌
Thank you! I love Adrian's videos, but it's good to have all sorts of variety and lengths to fit different tastes and moods 😃
"This episode of Noel's Retro Lab is brought to you by the letter E, and by viewers like you." ;^)
That "paint" on the screws looks like tamper enamel. A common American brand name of this stuff is Glyptal, and the red coloration is popular with a lot of brands. It is useful for locking screws into place without fouling threads, and for indicating when someone has been working on a piece of equipment. Additionally, it is a good insulator, and is used on exposed wiring to seal it from environmental factors.
great job on the clean up...and the vid!.. as usual! ...thanks Noel
Finds an E lodged under the keycaps. Happy days!
I wonder if a dish washer would work on the keys. Seems to get grease off cutlery etc.
Loved my original SV 328 here in the states. I was a local dealer for it for a very short time. My distributor only stocked it for a few months, then, poof, gone. Never did get a good reason. Luckily I was able to return the SV's for credit. Thanks for the memories.
Glad you enjoyed it! It's a rare computer to find in the US (now or even back then I imagine).
The water stains after drying may be eliminated with distilled water rinse. Though it's not 100% I do this for someone else's mechine I cleaned I probably would still use tap for my computer... They do not bother me as much
Was thinking of adding rinse aid for the dishwasher for the last rinse. I anyway wash all parts in my dishwasher so I don't have to deal with this. The cuttlery basket can hold small pieces.
Well, those dental cleaning products are good enough to clean dentures and coffee-machines, so yeah, those keys should be pretty clean after that. Anyway, it seems like a useful tip that I shall try to remember.
Oh and about the connector pitch being slightly off, maybe it's less of a problem if you divide it. The original cable already seems to be split in two.
Good point about splitting it. I might try that if I don't find a better connector. Cheers!
E
Another excellent video from Noel. I would really like it much more if you open the scale to see if it is 8-bit too :-) (sorry could not refrain from it)
The scale is probably 100x more powerful than the computer itself 😃
would breaking the pins in half allow enough adjustment? it is almost aligned until halfway, well it looks that way from the canera angle.
I remember doing this to my SVI328. Worked well.
Nice cleaning method. I wonder what those fizzies would do for an actual case. Fun Fact: The SVI's are essentially what the Coleco Adam should have been. I think the biggest turn off of the Adam was that it was so gaudy and cumbersome. Coleco should have simply made a simple keyboard expansion module with more RAM and ROM that fit undet the console. They spent way too much time and R&D on the Adam when it could have been more elegant like the SVI.
Only elegant on the _outside_!
@@talideon no one operates a computer from the inside. the fact that it takes up less than a 3rd of the desk is what it matters.
I absolutely love the Spectravideos. Thanks for the video Noel!
My pleasure!
Great video!
From my experience restoring Model Ms, I use synthetic gum eraser (the normal one's my kid uses in school) for the rugged surfaces to clean or "erase" the dirt and leftovers from sticky papers. I think is better than baking soda because the powder is abrasive.
I liked the keycap cleaning method, imagine those double keycaps from the Model Ms with window cleaner! I will try it.
I have to admit I haven't tried using an eraser with the case, but I can see how it would have worked in this case. As far as baking soda being abrasive, I've never noticed any scratching or wearing down at least on those kind of surfaces. I think it's the reaction with the water that helps take all the gunk away from the tiny cracks. I wouldn't want to use it in a shiny plastic surface though!
the the normal pencil rubber / eraser is excellent for cleaning up edge card connectors eg pc 8/16 bit, it gets the dull and tarnish or and gives it a good not abrasive / destructive cleaning.
Oh i often used it at work on older 30/72 pin sim modules back in the day, they tarnish in the machine and also the spares in the IT cupboard
Sunflower seed oil also works to remove tape. Not sure if it would damage it or not but less smell to it.
Interesting. I wonder if it's just about any oil that will remove that glue. I suppose that a non-organic kind might be better, but if you're going to wipe it down well it shouldn't matter. Good to know though!
The "paint" on the screws is nail polish - used to both help the screws from coming loose and to let you know when they have been undone (for warranty purposes)
I think you and I would differ on that a bit... Do you have some sort of inside information about SVI? (Heck, for all I know, I might be wrong.)
@@horusfalcon many years ago, around the same time these machines came out, I had a job assembling home computer hardware. We used nail polish on screws to detect tampering and also on variable resistors to ensure their setting didn't alter once they had been "tuned in". This may be some other lacquer or resin product being used but the purpose is the same. We worked on a few SVI machines way back then also and they all had these same resin spots on the screws.
Thanks for giving it a try - told you it was worth it ;-) Looks even more impressive with really grimy ones.
Thanks for the idea! Yes, I can't wait to try it with a truly disgusting one 😃