another possibility is to get hired as editor for some scientific journal and vent all your frustration by harassing authors and rejecting their papers
I was a postdoc until I left last year. I was a postdoc for 4 years already and got grant money for another 3 years. I left because i was tired of being overworked and poor while being underpaid. I now work for industry and makes 3x as much as i was getting as a postdoc.
Hi, thanks for sharing. Would you pls share with me the annual package at your uni for postdoc position? It is very likely that a trap is already here for me. Thanks in advance. Thanks Andy for this vid
@@debabratadutta6 😀 at least we found this vid useful. Thanks again Andy. Hi, Andy would you mind give us at least hint annual wages for a postdoc position at your former Uni or what is expected in Australia? This would help to make comparison with other Uni or jobs in industries. Thanks.
The 'business of science' is something I've learned over a long career. Honestly, that topic should be taught as a course in grad school. One of the best observations I ever got was that 'Universities are the last bastion of Feudal Society' - and, unfortunately, grad students are essentially the serfs. Post-docs are basically freemen. But neither really control their own destiny. The only options - as you've pointed out - are to move up within the system (become a mayor/baron) or "not play" and leave altogether.
After 7 years doing the PhD, I was offered what my supervisor said was a very good post-doc. I saw it as more years of exploitation. I wanted a family. After some hard times learning about business the hard way (NOT recommended!) I ended up developing software for the electric power industry. Interesting, appreciated by the customers, and financially rewarding. Spend some time employed in an interesting business and learn the ropes before going out on your own.
Didn’t want to leave academia, thought that meant I had failed and was throwing away all the years of hard work to get my PhD. Turns out being outside academia was much better and it was the system that had failed. I’m happier, healthier, more fulfilled, better paid, better job security. Really good video, very honest and lots of truth in this. You do feel like you’ve let yourself and other people down and that can be crippling for a while. Having options gives you so much more freedom to look at things from a different perspective. Smart people are very valuable outside of academia 6:30 having options 8:00 feelings of failure
Doing my master's now, and this is such an important and thorough presentation of how it actually is out there; something, I have _never_ heard about during my studies. Thank you a lot for your work
Absolutely agree - also in the same shoes of a Master & wondering whether or not to continue staying on this path... Andy's videos are priceless in this respect! Such a gem!
I was on a visa as a graduate student and postdoc. Nearly all of my postdoctoral positions were more or less abusive because my PIs knew full well that I was dependent on them to support my visa.
The psychological mind set of grad students and post docs would be interesting to document. My common constant thoughts were: - I’m not working hard enough - I’m not smart enough - Is my advisor happy - There are no other options but being a professor. You give great advice, stuff I wish I had known 25 years ago. I’m so happy I left and now make more money than 90% of professors and I enjoy my job.
You basically just read my mind 😢. I’m currently so desperate to leave my post doc because as much as I’ve always liked science I’m just not finding any personal fulfillment doing a post doc. At this point, I just fill in done with academia all together and need a fresh start.
By 2 or 3 years into her PhD (phys chem) my wife had figured out the trap of academia, and was becoming angry at the unfair system. But she toughed it out and completed the PhD then promptly waltzed into dental school. Definitely a much easier wealthier lifestyle in canada than most tenured profs in the end, but really no longer in analytical/creative science, just a 'technician.'
And she finishes each day and goes home and isn't thinking about the laboratory, or a publication that needs to be kicked into shape before it can be submitted, or a research grant submission deadline that's getting closer and closer, or completing the six-month progress report for the research grant she's currently managing, or the guidance that she needs to give to a PhD or Master's student that she's supervising, or the contents of the teaching course that she has to prepare from scratch for next term. Et cetera et cetera. There are LOTS of upsides to life outside academia. A colleague of mine realised this when we were PhD students together. She was about half way through the programme. She told her supervisor that this was not for her. They agreed that she could write up the results she had and present it as an MPhil and leave early. She went into social work and has never looked back.
I finished my PhD after 3 years of putting in between 10-14 hours a day. After that, a friend of my Supervisor asked me to become a Postdoc on a project they secured funding for at the same department. Guess what, without having a plan, I refused to continue living like that. Underpaid, always depressive, no savings. Dear PhDs, "Get Out".
I am glad I did an industrially focused PhD and then immediately went into industry afterwards. The Phd has been critical for the work I do and I really like my job.
I just remembered my friends who were in Postdoc and they were not healthy and always sad. I thought this was the price you had to pay to get tenure, what was I thinking. We all have to go through Hero's journey and you can't avoid it.
@@annak6307 Work treats me SO much better than that. Better work life balance, better pay, vacation etc. Unless you REALLY want to be in academia and you know what that truly entails then GET OUT.
How much do postdocs get paid in your country? Is the pay really that bad? UK PhD students got about 800-900 pounds a month when I was in the system about 20 years ago. Not a fortune, but you could live OK as long as you weren't silly with your money. The salary for a postdoc at the time was about 2,000 pounds a month, which was close to the national average for all salaries. The crap thing was the insecurity of contracts for 2-3 years. Like you I got out of academia and the UK too, so I don't know what the financials look like now.
Andy thank you for all these videos and sharing the truths and harsh realities that so many people refuse to acknowledge about academia! I am finally leaving after a 7 year postdoc, already so excited for the new opportunities that are on the horizon and I've managed to secure a fantastic offer in industry!
Thank you! I felt so much understood in this video. At the moment I'm a postdoc, searching for my way out of academia. And so many people around me just don't seem to understand, why it's so uneasy to me. "What's the problem? There are a lot of jobs for smart people out there". Reinventing myself and reevaluating my whole life is a problem. My hopes are the problem. A high workload at the current job is a problem. Me being not in my home country, all these bureaucratic and language barriers are the problem. That's a lot to process. I'm moving towards my goals at my own pace, but the social pressure is a problem, too. That's definitely not a very easy period of my life.
You have a project with a professor, you got some progress but then he doesn't care it. He doesn't reply your emails 2-3 times, then reply, and says "I will come back to you in one week" but it takes one month, another reminder then some progress, then again the circle... These professors don't care those projects, because they don't earn money and they don't need prestige of the projects, because they already have thousands of them. However, it is important for young scientists...
In the current environment, if you are not graduated from a top university with an outstanding performance during your PhD, it is better to forget about academia I do not think, at the moment, any graduate from a low-tier university has a chance to get a tenure-track job.
What did you mean by that? What are the Top-Universities? As a Russian, I graduated from one of the leading University here (QS =319), and then have been pursuing PhD in European University (QS =550). Does it mean something for my future career, for example in US? I really wonder 'cause I heard that for the first time.
@@sergeipravosud1848 That's straight Bullshit. Although what Andy said is true. Collaboration and Popularity in your own field is important. That comes with good dedication and good work.
I agree with this comment. In the US the lab you come from and then the institution are the major determining factors in landing an academic position. It's pedigree and resources. You can work hard all you want, someone who is connected will get ahead despite your hard work.
Leaving can be extremely hard. Industry can be unreceptive of post-doc level researchers. We are older, over-qualified, etc. The amount of reasons I've heard to not be hired to industry positions can fill a book. I spent a miserable time between not being good enough for academia and industry: so what is left?
Thank you for bringing this to light Andy! I thought I was going crazy thinking that R1 institutes treated teaching responsibilities like they were punishments but I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that thinks that!
Academia is hard for incoming researchers, research is being underpaid/non paid (in PhD and post docs) In some countries academic positions are impossible to get you have to do postdocs,many publications , to network around continuously and awaiting for more than 5 years working like a madman. Industry/ institutions is a better solution after the PhD and better for one's mental health.The funny thing is that you see professors that in their youth as researchers in the same position you are now had less achievements and qualifications than you today.And you are considered "inadequate" for their standards.
Hi Andy,your videos are very informative, I have a request,can you make a video on how to survive in lab politics,when you have to deal with toxic lab mates,and seniors who always put hurdles during experiment so that your work delays.It would be really helpful for us students who are actually fighting and surviving such environments 😢😢😢
Don’t try and survive it, don’t play the game. That’s how they control you, by making you fearful. Call it out, speak to the faculty about a complaint or grievance. If they won’t listen, leak it to the press. And run as far away from that lab as you can
If you can, my advise would be to leave the lab. Toxic place can never be good, especially if the toxic or abusive behaviour directly affects you (e.g. somebody sabotages your work). If you stay silent, you suffer in silence. If you at some point escalate the situation, you will be the one, who makes the problems, not the one who actually causes the problems. Believe me, nobody will side with you. If you speak out, those who should be taken accountable, will never be taken accountable, especially if they are on a higher position. But even if it is just a phd student. In best case you can be ignored, in worst case you can be demonized by everybody and isolated. I think the best thing to do is to leave if it is possible. If not, I would go to the phychologist, explain the situation and ask for advise on how to become less "interesting" for your environment.
I’m a year from finishing my PhD but started it as a senior scientist, so still being paid and having 10+ years work experience behind me I.e. when I finish I’ll still be employed at the research institute I’ve worked at for 10 years. People keep asking me (albeit it’s people at the uni i am matriculated at but not physically working at and not people at my research institute work) about doing a post doc after and sending me links to postdoc positions, and I keep saying under no circumstances do I want a postdoc position…temporary, pay not great, unstable etc. I do not understand what keeps many academics living in those conditions. I try not to offend anyone but I’m quite blunt in my reply. Of course I have the security of already a solid career behind me going into the PhD, so I’m sure I’m a rarer PhD student (I’m Late 30s so older too). But man alive it all seems so unattractive to go into academia. Shame!
Personally I never thought of the two post docs I did as a trap. To me being a post doc was an opportunity to do research without the pressures of being a Ph.D. student. A couple of differences here in North America are that post docs can't be PIs or even co investigators. Also getting "promoted" within the university where you are a post doc seldom happens since the prof you work for is almost always occupying the discipline slot you would fill. Here in North America Faculty hires, except at elite institutions, are almost always directed at filling a vacancy generated by someone leaving (retirement, moving to another institution, or getting denied tenure). That means that moving into a faculty position normally involves moving to a different institution. The key elements to making that move start before you start a post doc. Basically, you need to choose a post doc with a leader in your field because the prof you work for will be one of two absolutely critical references when applying for a faculty position. If you do a post doc with someone who is not a leader, that will decrease your job chances. Second, you need to get some teaching experience. You need a PI who is pleased to have you take on lecturing a course or two while you are a post doc. And, of paramount importance is that you need to publish important papers, preferably as lead author. In my experience post docs, with a few exceptions, are funded from research grants and generally have about a two year limit. So you need to be working on publishing your Ph.D. research if you haven't already as well as getting work done during the first year or so of the post doc submitted. You also need to go to national/international conferences and make presentations. During my second post doc I started applying for faculty positions and non-academic jobs almost right away. I ended up taking a research position at a national lab and hit the sweet spot in my search for an academic position during my second year at that lab - i.e., I started getting interviews for academic jobs. All of what I said applies to North America. Things are certainly different in other places (Europe, Australia etc.).
What country are you in? There was a fast track programme in the UK that recruited PhDs into secondary school teaching. A colleague of mine did it and he has never been happier. He's head of the science teacher team at a private school.
@@baltasarnoreno5973 Hey! Good for him! That sounds like a great opportunity. I do prefer to teach at a university level though (like thats what I want in my head), although, I had the pleasure of teaching a 12th grade physics class once. It was absolute joy. I am from India, currently doing my PhD in the Netherlands.
@@engineering_guy You will probably enjoy teaching more if your students are academically advanced. So yes, teaching BSc or Master's students would be more enjoyable, and it would be a much better use of YOUR talents and knowledge.
Thanks Andy, very helpful advice. It's sad to see what academia has become tbh. It would be great if you could interview others that left academia, their journey, and what they learnt from their experience, or talk more about your own journey with starting a company.
I know your channel is related to scientific research primarily, but I feel like a lot of this advice could just be applied to any field. I've found it very helpful, and I am in no way related to the field of science.
The conversation of this type "to be or not to be", "to PhD or not",to "Post-doc or not" is pointless. A more important issue is to discuss is why societies today signal people that being a "footballer","chef", "influencer/content creator","model(only fans or not)" will provide you more than working as a researcher to create new technology and knowledge.There are students of mine stating that after degree they will go to chef school than spending their life studying with no payout at the end.I dont blame them.
If anyone of you has a PhD...think about being in a grey space of roles that help you to generate income. The graduate skills can help you create & deliver values, all you need to seek for a client that is willing to hire you or pay your skills to help their business either cut cost or gain more revenues.
The main purpose of a PD is to build up your publication record after your intensive PhD training. It should only be 2-3 years, and thereafter seek an academic position. The other so-called "aims" of PD are just distractions, as are the need to seek grants, etc. Don't look at salaries at this stage; you won't be well paid for a funded internship. Which university you go to will depend on your publication record. Finally, universities are changing, and will hire more industry people in future, rather than continue with useless research. Hence, make your research count.
So universities are graduating more people than at anytime in history, but are still going to look outside for their research? Something seems a bit off there.
To be honest I loved being in grad school for the last year. I got accepted as a PhD student skipping my masters. When I arrived at school they told me that I had to do one year in the masters program then I could switch to the PhD program (working on the same project). I talked to one of my committee yesterday and found out he dose not like the idea. Now it looks like I could be trapped in a masters project that I am behind on because I have been working at a PhD pace because that is what I was promised now I am just depressed and scrambling to put together SOMETHNG to equate a masters.. What are your recommendations?
Get out. Go take a 2 years master. The project and PI should fit your goals. If not, it will go nowhere. You need someone who has experience and can lead you. Alternatively, get out and work a little before jumping back into masters or PhD.
It took me long to escape a post-doc trap as I felt I have nothing to find outside. I had no idea how to write non Academic CV, what to say on a job interview as I didn't even know who to ask or what to do. But I managed to get a corporate job. I was looking for a perment job in a big company as I need stability. Help from a women teaching unemployed people how to search for a job was a game changer. She told me recruiters are looking at CV, how should I tailor my CV to each application. Not buzzwords like "tailor your CV" but if this and this is written in CV and you have similiar skills write it. This seems obvious but for people who knows. I spend five and half years as post-doc, got fellowship and was co-applicant on a grant. Salary was a bad joke and left for another university for three years which killed my academic career as I ended up as support on other's people grants. I left for industry non-related to life sciences and this was best decision of my life.
Ex-academic here too. I work in a company that employs lots of people with PhDs in science and engineering. We get some amazingly clever people applying for positions with us, but their resumes are totally wrong for a job in the private sector. 17 pages long. Lists of papers and book chapters published, conferences attended, Master's dissertations supervised etc etc. Nothing about what their workplace skills and talents are.
@@baltasarnoreno5973 Agree. Academia and industry CV are totally different. I learned by applying about do's and dont's of application. I also get help so I understand "tailor CV to job posting" means "write it in a way that it includes words from a job description so HR can easily read it". This is not obvious for Academic as in Academia CV is read by potential supervisor or post-docs who was knowledge about position. Understanding how HR is reading CV, what they want to see in a CV and hear in a interview is a dealbreaker. For those who don't know anyone who can help they should pay professionals this is an investment. I mentioned papers but as achievements from previous jobs, when I proved skills that are mentioned in a job description.
Probably because he is not enticed by a life made up of a series of postdoc positions with three year contracts, and having to move to a new University in a new city 500km away each time, and working in institutions that expect you to work more than your contracted hours, and constantly worri¡ying about his long term financial security.
I'm glad that someone here pointed to the elephant in the room. An elephant that is getting bigger and bigger with each year that passes. I'll put my hand in the fire and 'assume' that Andy identifies as a heterosexual cis white male. So no additional diversity points that upgrade his score in the HR candidate filter.
Lots of good advice in here - despite (like all of Andy's videos) the content being highly biased against academia. We know that lots of people love life in academia and it provides them a fantastic life, but one wouldn't think so listening to Andy, because his message is always that "life is better outside of academia". Well, I don't really blame poor Andy because he has been traumatized in academia, but I just hope that new PhDs and Post docs are able to understand where Andy is coming from and that these videos are highly biased due to the idiosyncratic experiences of Andy.
Your right that we should be carefull about ones opinion, but you can argue statistically. You get on average less money more depressions bournouts overworks in contrast to other jobs and so on, which has been investigated in several studies to my knowledge in germany at least. So Andy is to harsh at some point, but he also nailed some other points. For example I enjoyed working as a phd and postdoc, but there are similar jobs in the industry with better conditions aswell.
I agree more with you than with the person doing these videos. I like the idea of speaking of hidden truths but these "facts" should be presented as they are: his opinions. Which I find a bit extreme
Honestly, the video is just mentioning what you have to do to be successful as postdoc or academic, and possible alternatives. Life in academia, simply, does not fit with all people (as any other job).
His views and experiences are far from being idiosyncratic. Academia provides a fantastic life for a small fraction of people who enter it. There just aren't enough posts for everyone. A lot of entrants linger for years in badly paid insecure jobs where they are expected to work far longer hours than their peers in the private sector. And I have noticed that a far larger proportion of people in academia are unmarried and childless compared to IRL. A life composed of a series of modestly paid postdocs in different Universities several hundred kilometres apart and in some cases in different countries is a sure fire way of ruining a relationship.
another possibility is to get hired as editor for some scientific journal and vent all your frustration by harassing authors and rejecting their papers
😂hhahahaha, that’s evil, yet satisfying
How is the pay there?
This! This is the comment! 😅
@@nikhilmane5245 peanut 🥜
Oh geez 😅
I was a postdoc until I left last year. I was a postdoc for 4 years already and got grant money for another 3 years. I left because i was tired of being overworked and poor while being underpaid. I now work for industry and makes 3x as much as i was getting as a postdoc.
Hi, thanks for sharing. Would you pls share with me the annual package at your uni for postdoc position? It is very likely that a trap is already here for me. Thanks in advance.
Thanks Andy for this vid
@@Rainstorm121 I am also in the same trap
@@debabratadutta6 😀 at least we found this vid useful. Thanks again Andy. Hi, Andy would you mind give us at least hint annual wages for a postdoc position at your former Uni or what is expected in Australia? This would help to make comparison with other Uni or jobs in industries. Thanks.
The 'business of science' is something I've learned over a long career. Honestly, that topic should be taught as a course in grad school. One of the best observations I ever got was that 'Universities are the last bastion of Feudal Society' - and, unfortunately, grad students are essentially the serfs. Post-docs are basically freemen. But neither really control their own destiny. The only options - as you've pointed out - are to move up within the system (become a mayor/baron) or "not play" and leave altogether.
That is an idea from Alan Wolfe's sociological research called "The Feudal Culture of the Postmodern University" in 1996. It's an interesting read.
After 7 years doing the PhD, I was offered what my supervisor said was a very good post-doc. I saw it as more years of exploitation. I wanted a family. After some hard times learning about business the hard way (NOT recommended!) I ended up developing software for the electric power industry. Interesting, appreciated by the customers, and financially rewarding. Spend some time employed in an interesting business and learn the ropes before going out on your own.
Didn’t want to leave academia, thought that meant I had failed and was throwing away all the years of hard work to get my PhD. Turns out being outside academia was much better and it was the system that had failed. I’m happier, healthier, more fulfilled, better paid, better job security.
Really good video, very honest and lots of truth in this. You do feel like you’ve let yourself and other people down and that can be crippling for a while. Having options gives you so much more freedom to look at things from a different perspective. Smart people are very valuable outside of academia
6:30 having options
8:00 feelings of failure
I just left a postdoc after doing it for three years. I am in the industry now and I am happy. You are very true about the paralysing job insecurity.
Doing my master's now, and this is such an important and thorough presentation of how it actually is out there; something, I have _never_ heard about during my studies. Thank you a lot for your work
Absolutely agree - also in the same shoes of a Master & wondering whether or not to continue staying on this path... Andy's videos are priceless in this respect! Such a gem!
I was on a visa as a graduate student and postdoc. Nearly all of my postdoctoral positions were more or less abusive because my PIs knew full well that I was dependent on them to support my visa.
Same. I got out by sponsoring my own Green card via E2. Now I am a citizen and looking towards government labs
Fuck! I have been just experiencing the same throughout my PhD and now in my second postdoc. I am also considering an exit plan.
Your videos are like free therapy. I personally wish you’d made this video 10 years ago!
The psychological mind set of grad students and post docs would be interesting to document. My common constant thoughts were:
- I’m not working hard enough
- I’m not smart enough
- Is my advisor happy
- There are no other options but being a professor.
You give great advice, stuff I wish I had known 25 years ago. I’m so happy I left and now make more money than 90% of professors and I enjoy my job.
You basically just read my mind 😢. I’m currently so desperate to leave my post doc because as much as I’ve always liked science I’m just not finding any personal fulfillment doing a post doc. At this point, I just fill in done with academia all together and need a fresh start.
By 2 or 3 years into her PhD (phys chem) my wife had figured out the trap of academia, and was becoming angry at the unfair system. But she toughed it out and completed the PhD then promptly waltzed into dental school. Definitely a much easier wealthier lifestyle in canada than most tenured profs in the end, but really no longer in analytical/creative science, just a 'technician.'
And she finishes each day and goes home and isn't thinking about the laboratory, or a publication that needs to be kicked into shape before it can be submitted, or a research grant submission deadline that's getting closer and closer, or completing the six-month progress report for the research grant she's currently managing, or the guidance that she needs to give to a PhD or Master's student that she's supervising, or the contents of the teaching course that she has to prepare from scratch for next term. Et cetera et cetera. There are LOTS of upsides to life outside academia. A colleague of mine realised this when we were PhD students together. She was about half way through the programme. She told her supervisor that this was not for her. They agreed that she could write up the results she had and present it as an MPhil and leave early. She went into social work and has never looked back.
I finished my PhD after 3 years of putting in between 10-14 hours a day. After that, a friend of my Supervisor asked me to become a Postdoc on a project they secured funding for at the same department. Guess what, without having a plan, I refused to continue living like that. Underpaid, always depressive, no savings. Dear PhDs, "Get Out".
I am glad I did an industrially focused PhD and then immediately went into industry afterwards. The Phd has been critical for the work I do and I really like my job.
I just remembered my friends who were in Postdoc and they were not healthy and always sad. I thought this was the price you had to pay to get tenure, what was I thinking. We all have to go through Hero's journey and you can't avoid it.
@@annak6307 Work treats me SO much better than that. Better work life balance, better pay, vacation etc. Unless you REALLY want to be in academia and you know what that truly entails then GET OUT.
@@Immudzen You'll have to be more specific for the audience to get your message. What are you trying to say?
How much do postdocs get paid in your country? Is the pay really that bad? UK PhD students got about 800-900 pounds a month when I was in the system about 20 years ago. Not a fortune, but you could live OK as long as you weren't silly with your money. The salary for a postdoc at the time was about 2,000 pounds a month, which was close to the national average for all salaries. The crap thing was the insecurity of contracts for 2-3 years. Like you I got out of academia and the UK too, so I don't know what the financials look like now.
Andy thank you for all these videos and sharing the truths and harsh realities that so many people refuse to acknowledge about academia! I am finally leaving after a 7 year postdoc, already so excited for the new opportunities that are on the horizon and I've managed to secure a fantastic offer in industry!
So many opportunities!! Tartaria=)
Thank you! I felt so much understood in this video.
At the moment I'm a postdoc, searching for my way out of academia. And so many people around me just don't seem to understand, why it's so uneasy to me. "What's the problem? There are a lot of jobs for smart people out there". Reinventing myself and reevaluating my whole life is a problem. My hopes are the problem. A high workload at the current job is a problem. Me being not in my home country, all these bureaucratic and language barriers are the problem. That's a lot to process. I'm moving towards my goals at my own pace, but the social pressure is a problem, too. That's definitely not a very easy period of my life.
Thanks for the open hearted talk! I have one year left on my phd, looking at both jobs and postdocs now. Also would love to freelance again
I'm so excited for you! Make sure to take some time off and TRAVEL!
You have a project with a professor, you got some progress but then he doesn't care it. He doesn't reply your emails 2-3 times, then reply, and says "I will come back to you in one week" but it takes one month, another reminder then some progress, then again the circle... These professors don't care those projects, because they don't earn money and they don't need prestige of the projects, because they already have thousands of them. However, it is important for young scientists...
In the current environment, if you are not graduated from a top university with an outstanding performance during your PhD, it is better to forget about academia I do not think, at the moment, any graduate from a low-tier university has a chance to get a tenure-track job.
What did you mean by that? What are the Top-Universities?
As a Russian, I graduated from one of the leading University here (QS =319), and then have been pursuing PhD in European University (QS =550). Does it mean something for my future career, for example in US? I really wonder 'cause I heard that for the first time.
@@sergeipravosud1848 That's straight Bullshit. Although what Andy said is true. Collaboration and Popularity in your own field is important. That comes with good dedication and good work.
I agree with this comment. In the US the lab you come from and then the institution are the major determining factors in landing an academic position. It's pedigree and resources. You can work hard all you want, someone who is connected will get ahead despite your hard work.
Man, your words are so clear and great to hear. It is sold healing to hear that other people out there have the same straggles
Leaving can be extremely hard. Industry can be unreceptive of post-doc level researchers. We are older, over-qualified, etc. The amount of reasons I've heard to not be hired to industry positions can fill a book. I spent a miserable time between not being good enough for academia and industry: so what is left?
I am on the same boat, i have been trying out from the academia for years but could only land a job as a posdoc
Brilliant and true reflections! Thank you so much! made me reflecting about my current situation
Thank you for bringing this to light Andy! I thought I was going crazy thinking that R1 institutes treated teaching responsibilities like they were punishments but I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that thinks that!
Academia is hard for incoming researchers, research is being underpaid/non paid (in PhD and post docs) In some countries academic positions are impossible to get you have to do postdocs,many publications , to network around continuously and awaiting for more than 5 years working like a madman. Industry/ institutions is a better solution after the PhD and better for one's mental health.The funny thing is that you see professors that in their youth as researchers in the same position you are now had less achievements and qualifications than you today.And you are considered "inadequate" for their standards.
good point.
Hi Andy,your videos are very informative, I have a request,can you make a video on how to survive in lab politics,when you have to deal with toxic lab mates,and seniors who always put hurdles during experiment so that your work delays.It would be really helpful for us students who are actually fighting and surviving such environments 😢😢😢
Don’t try and survive it, don’t play the game. That’s how they control you, by making you fearful. Call it out, speak to the faculty about a complaint or grievance. If they won’t listen, leak it to the press. And run as far away from that lab as you can
If you can, my advise would be to leave the lab. Toxic place can never be good, especially if the toxic or abusive behaviour directly affects you (e.g. somebody sabotages your work). If you stay silent, you suffer in silence. If you at some point escalate the situation, you will be the one, who makes the problems, not the one who actually causes the problems. Believe me, nobody will side with you. If you speak out, those who should be taken accountable, will never be taken accountable, especially if they are on a higher position. But even if it is just a phd student. In best case you can be ignored, in worst case you can be demonized by everybody and isolated. I think the best thing to do is to leave if it is possible. If not, I would go to the phychologist, explain the situation and ask for advise on how to become less "interesting" for your environment.
Thank you so much for your sincere and eye-opening perspective
I’m a year from finishing my PhD but started it as a senior scientist, so still being paid and having 10+ years work experience behind me I.e. when I finish I’ll still be employed at the research institute I’ve worked at for 10 years. People keep asking me (albeit it’s people at the uni i am matriculated at but not physically working at and not people at my research institute work) about doing a post doc after and sending me links to postdoc positions, and I keep saying under no circumstances do I want a postdoc position…temporary, pay not great, unstable etc. I do not understand what keeps many academics living in those conditions. I try not to offend anyone but I’m quite blunt in my reply. Of course I have the security of already a solid career behind me going into the PhD, so I’m sure I’m a rarer PhD student (I’m
Late 30s so older too). But man alive it all seems so unattractive to go into academia. Shame!
Great Video Dr andy
Thank you for posting. Great vid! I am still searching for a job outside of academia.
Personally I never thought of the two post docs I did as a trap. To me being a post doc was an opportunity to do research without the pressures of being a Ph.D. student. A couple of differences here in North America are that post docs can't be PIs or even co investigators. Also getting "promoted" within the university where you are a post doc seldom happens since the prof you work for is almost always occupying the discipline slot you would fill. Here in North America Faculty hires, except at elite institutions, are almost always directed at filling a vacancy generated by someone leaving (retirement, moving to another institution, or getting denied tenure). That means that moving into a faculty position normally involves moving to a different institution. The key elements to making that move start before you start a post doc. Basically, you need to choose a post doc with a leader in your field because the prof you work for will be one of two absolutely critical references when applying for a faculty position. If you do a post doc with someone who is not a leader, that will decrease your job chances. Second, you need to get some teaching experience. You need a PI who is pleased to have you take on lecturing a course or two while you are a post doc. And, of paramount importance is that you need to publish important papers, preferably as lead author. In my experience post docs, with a few exceptions, are funded from research grants and generally have about a two year limit. So you need to be working on publishing your Ph.D. research if you haven't already as well as getting work done during the first year or so of the post doc submitted. You also need to go to national/international conferences and make presentations.
During my second post doc I started applying for faculty positions and non-academic jobs almost right away. I ended up taking a research position at a national lab and hit the sweet spot in my search for an academic position during my second year at that lab - i.e., I started getting interviews for academic jobs.
All of what I said applies to North America. Things are certainly different in other places (Europe, Australia etc.).
Look how old you are now. Times were different after the world war 2, boomer.
Thanks for all the videos Andy..I really want to become a teacher..its the main reason I joined for a phd. Hope I can get a teaching post!
What country are you in? There was a fast track programme in the UK that recruited PhDs into secondary school teaching. A colleague of mine did it and he has never been happier. He's head of the science teacher team at a private school.
@@baltasarnoreno5973 Hey! Good for him! That sounds like a great opportunity. I do prefer to teach at a university level though (like thats what I want in my head), although, I had the pleasure of teaching a 12th grade physics class once. It was absolute joy. I am from India, currently doing my PhD in the Netherlands.
@@engineering_guy You will probably enjoy teaching more if your students are academically advanced. So yes, teaching BSc or Master's students would be more enjoyable, and it would be a much better use of YOUR talents and knowledge.
Thank you for this information. I just left and I am currently looking 😢
Thanks Andy, very helpful advice. It's sad to see what academia has become tbh.
It would be great if you could interview others that left academia, their journey, and what they learnt from their experience, or talk more about your own journey with starting a company.
I know your channel is related to scientific research primarily, but I feel like a lot of this advice could just be applied to any field. I've found it very helpful, and I am in no way related to the field of science.
The conversation of this type "to be or not to be", "to PhD or not",to "Post-doc or not" is pointless. A more important issue is to discuss is why societies today signal people that being a "footballer","chef", "influencer/content creator","model(only fans or not)" will provide you more than working as a researcher to create new technology and knowledge.There are students of mine stating that after degree they will go to chef school than spending their life studying with no payout at the end.I dont blame them.
Ya, postdoc can sometime seem like bonded labor
Very interesting tips for scholars how chasing a postdoctoral position
Postdoc here, thinking of working for wegmans
If anyone of you has a PhD...think about being in a grey space of roles that help you to generate income. The graduate skills can help you create & deliver values, all you need to seek for a client that is willing to hire you or pay your skills to help their business either cut cost or gain more revenues.
Thanks!
The main purpose of a PD is to build up your publication record after your intensive PhD training. It should only be 2-3 years, and thereafter seek an academic position. The other so-called "aims" of PD are just distractions, as are the need to seek grants, etc. Don't look at salaries at this stage; you won't be well paid for a funded internship. Which university you go to will depend on your publication record. Finally, universities are changing, and will hire more industry people in future, rather than continue with useless research. Hence, make your research count.
Agree 100%.
So universities are graduating more people than at anytime in history, but are still going to look outside for their research? Something seems a bit off there.
Accepting that I'm going to leave academia has taken such a weight off my shoulders.
Thanks mate..
To be honest I loved being in grad school for the last year. I got accepted as a PhD student skipping my masters. When I arrived at school they told me that I had to do one year in the masters program then I could switch to the PhD program (working on the same project). I talked to one of my committee yesterday and found out he dose not like the idea. Now it looks like I could be trapped in a masters project that I am behind on because I have been working at a PhD pace because that is what I was promised now I am just depressed and scrambling to put together SOMETHNG to equate a masters.. What are your recommendations?
Get out. Go take a 2 years master.
The project and PI should fit your goals. If not, it will go nowhere.
You need someone who has experience and can lead you.
Alternatively, get out and work a little before jumping back into masters or PhD.
@Orozus well I'm 37 and know a PhD is what I want I've worked all my life and actually academic life except what now seems to be lies .
My Ph.D. experience taught me the importance of infrastructure. It forced me to skipped "POSTDOC" completely. Now I feel cutout from the world.
Infrastructure? What do you mean?
It took me long to escape a post-doc trap as I felt I have nothing to find outside. I had no idea how to write non Academic CV, what to say on a job interview as I didn't even know who to ask or what to do. But I managed to get a corporate job. I was looking for a perment job in a big company as I need stability. Help from a women teaching unemployed people how to search for a job was a game changer. She told me recruiters are looking at CV, how should I tailor my CV to each application. Not buzzwords like "tailor your CV" but if this and this is written in CV and you have similiar skills write it. This seems obvious but for people who knows. I spend five and half years as post-doc, got fellowship and was co-applicant on a grant. Salary was a bad joke and left for another university for three years which killed my academic career as I ended up as support on other's people grants. I left for industry non-related to life sciences and this was best decision of my life.
Ex-academic here too. I work in a company that employs lots of people with PhDs in science and engineering. We get some amazingly clever people applying for positions with us, but their resumes are totally wrong for a job in the private sector. 17 pages long. Lists of papers and book chapters published, conferences attended, Master's dissertations supervised etc etc. Nothing about what their workplace skills and talents are.
@@baltasarnoreno5973 Agree. Academia and industry CV are totally different.
I learned by applying about do's and dont's of application. I also get help so I understand "tailor CV to job posting" means "write it in a way that it includes words from a job description so HR can easily read it". This is not obvious for Academic as in Academia CV is read by potential supervisor or post-docs who was knowledge about position. Understanding how HR is reading CV, what they want to see in a CV and hear in a interview is a dealbreaker.
For those who don't know anyone who can help they should pay professionals this is an investment.
I mentioned papers but as achievements from previous jobs, when I proved skills that are mentioned in a job description.
Good video.
Hi, Dr. Stapleton! What is the best way to get in touch with you? Thanks!
Or, go directly into the industry or to administration. With a PhD, you're practically unstoppable and able to accomplish anything.
Thank uu
*you cant get promoted in your own school wo a post doc at another skool.* or at least having your family pay for a chair. that can work. _JC
There are mostly no options for STEM PhD. manufacturing being sent overseas
There may be but they're harder to find. Look for statistical jobs or roles with "quantitative" in the job title
Not necessarily so. The financial sector loves PhDs from science, medicine and engineering.
@@baltasarnoreno5973 What kind of skills does financial sector want from PhDs in engineering?
@@nguyenhung6898 Maths
6:40 weirdo thinktanks is the answer. _JC
Left phd after 3 years...feeling lost. Can you guys help me?
Decide the job role you want in industry, read requirements on job adverts, and develop the skills. Then, start applying for jobs
so you wanted linoleum walls? _JC
Companies see PostDoc experience as non experience at all. 5 years work in a University lab is not experience in an industry lab.
*warn us how to escape the hipster beard trap.* at least a warning. _JC
First!
But why do you want to get off the track, I don't understand?
Probably because he is not enticed by a life made up of a series of postdoc positions with three year contracts, and having to move to a new University in a new city 500km away each time, and working in institutions that expect you to work more than your contracted hours, and constantly worri¡ying about his long term financial security.
You need to be the top of the top, non-white, and non-male - to get a first interview. Then the real competition starts.
The red pill for phds. Lol
Academia = The Patriarchy 🤣 Postdoc lives matter 🤣Postdoc rights are human rights 🤣
@@baltasarnoreno5973 LGBTQPh.D.?
Lets be real, bro. Your look is far from sleek. You made me get into Finasteride.
#5: Are you part of an approved minority?
I'm glad that someone here pointed to the elephant in the room. An elephant that is getting bigger and bigger with each year that passes. I'll put my hand in the fire and 'assume' that Andy identifies as a heterosexual cis white male. So no additional diversity points that upgrade his score in the HR candidate filter.
Lots of good advice in here - despite (like all of Andy's videos) the content being highly biased against academia. We know that lots of people love life in academia and it provides them a fantastic life, but one wouldn't think so listening to Andy, because his message is always that "life is better outside of academia". Well, I don't really blame poor Andy because he has been traumatized in academia, but I just hope that new PhDs and Post docs are able to understand where Andy is coming from and that these videos are highly biased due to the idiosyncratic experiences of Andy.
Your right that we should be carefull about ones opinion, but you can argue statistically. You get on average less money more depressions bournouts overworks in contrast to other jobs and so on, which has been investigated in several studies to my knowledge in germany at least. So Andy is to harsh at some point, but he also nailed some other points. For example I enjoyed working as a phd and postdoc, but there are similar jobs in the industry with better conditions aswell.
I agree more with you than with the person doing these videos. I like the idea of speaking of hidden truths but these "facts" should be presented as they are: his opinions. Which I find a bit extreme
Honestly, the video is just mentioning what you have to do to be successful as postdoc or academic, and possible alternatives. Life in academia, simply, does not fit with all people (as any other job).
There are few people happy in academia that aren't workaholic geniuses or delusional. But I'm in America so maybe it's different here...
His views and experiences are far from being idiosyncratic. Academia provides a fantastic life for a small fraction of people who enter it. There just aren't enough posts for everyone. A lot of entrants linger for years in badly paid insecure jobs where they are expected to work far longer hours than their peers in the private sector. And I have noticed that a far larger proportion of people in academia are unmarried and childless compared to IRL. A life composed of a series of modestly paid postdocs in different Universities several hundred kilometres apart and in some cases in different countries is a sure fire way of ruining a relationship.
may i have you email address, i am jahid from Malaysia