my pastor ondo believe in endless torment or everlasting punishment in hell fire and many christians and pastors believe that that those whk judge in last judgment in eternal hell fire endless punishment in hell fire, many people and christians believe in endless torment or endless punishment in hell fire as people like to believe in that idea that it found in the bible in matthew 25:46 , revelation 14:9-11. My pastor and many christians believe in endless punishment hell fire
The majority of religion and christians also modern christians the majority of them believes in eternal hell fire or endless punishment or eternal punishment eternal hell fire they believe in that idea and they have verses in bible support there belief and majority of them are infernalist. May God Jesus Christ Have Mercy On Us All And To Saved Us All. Amen
Sir, many western Protestants have never encountered the early church’s teaching of The Harrowing of Hell found in many early church fathers’ writings. Would you give us a video on this topic? Thank you. 😊 Great stuff! I have learned so much from your channel and very much respect your biblical literacy and your ambition to share this glorious hope with us.
The early church writing doesn't support the Catholic position at all. They have to take quotes out of context for everything. It's ridiculous if you actually check them.
the majority of christians and pastors they believe and they preach that the hell fire is endless torment or lake of fire second death is endless torment or eternity hell fire or everlasting punishment or eternal hell fire this is believe and preach by many christians and pastors and they also believe that we can forfiet and lose salvation and end in hell fire if we go on sinning and habitual sinning and keep sinning disobedience and sin they preach and believe that we can forfiet and lose salvation by that sinning live in sinning.
The majority of religion and christians also modern christians the majority of them believes in eternal hell fire or endless punishment or eternal punishment eternal hell fire they believe in that idea and they have verses in bible support there belief and majority of them are infernalist. May God Jesus Christ Have Mercy On Us All And To Saved Us All. Amen
brother still today i am in trouble because majority of christians and pastor they believe we can forfiet and lose salvation and end in eternal hell fire and become unsave again and lose salvation , they believe that because if we keep on sinning , habitualy sin, wilfuly sin, disobedience and falling away from faith that can forfiet and lose salvation and become unsave us and end in eternal hell fire. Thats there belief brother
@vince.sarigumba personally, I'd rather learn from scholars of the Hebrew and Greek language than learn from a blinded pastor who has been indoctrinated into a theology that fits a certain denomination. Plus I'd rather learn from historians who understand the culture, history and traditions of the Jewish people of that time period.
Although I do not believe the Catholic church as an organization is God's church on earth with His authority, I have come to realize and acknowledge that they have preserved some of the original teachings of Christ and His apostles. Purgatory is one of those topics I've changed my mind about. I'm also looking at Mary, the mother of our Lord, differently- not praying to her or worshipping her, but I think she does deserve more appreciation and honor than we (I) generally knew to give. Thank you for this video.
I'm a Christian Universalist, I don't believe in a purgatory. That said, the bible was written by people whos cosmology is literally ancient. We can and should glean from the scriptures but the Word of God is alive in us, it's not the bible.
1 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
@TerryF-ht4qf reading the bible is NOT the equivalent of studying the scriptures. That said, a more accurate translation of the verse you quoted is, "all scripture that is God-breathed..." Context is everything, and when translations don't capture the context of the original text then the whole meaning changes. To call the bible "the Word of God" is to literally displace Jesus, the Word of God, and commit idolatry. It's called biblio-idolotry.
@@webz3589 then why do you believe in things that contradict it? You couldn't have understood it if you think purgatory is real. Furthermore a great deal of the new testament refutes Catholicism.
@@joshportie There are many areas where the Catholic Church goes against or does not agree with the Bible. For instance, the Catholic Catechism in 1129 says, “…the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.” The BIBLE says, in Eph. 2:8, “Salvation is by faith, through grace, NOT WORKS…” Eph. 2:10 then says “we are saved UNTO good works.” The Catechism in 2010 says, “…we can then merit for ourselves graces needed for sanctification…and the attainment of eternal life.” The BIBLE in Romans 11:6 says, “God’s grace-His undeserved kindness in choosing them…it is not by their good works.” The Catechism in 846 says, “…the (Catholic) Church is necessary for salvation.” The BIBLE says in Acts 4:12 concerning the name of Jesus, “there is no other name under Heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.” The Catechism says, in 1339 talks of the bread and the wine becoming the body and blood of Jesus. The BIBLE in 1 Peter 2:24 says, “He (JESUS) personally carried our sins in his body on the cross.” The Catechism in 1323 says, “the Savior instituted the Eucharist to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross through the ages…” The BIBLE in John 13:30 has Jesus saying, “It is finished.” The Catechism in 552, 765, and 880 says, “Peter is the head of the Apostles. The BIBLE in John 13:13 declares Jesus to be the disciples’ Lord and Teacher. The Catechism in 964 intimates that Mary’s union with Christ is inseparable from Christ in the work of salvation; making Mary a co-redeemer with Jesus. The BIBLE has Jesus Himself saying, “I am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father (Heaven) but through Me.” The catechism in 2677 attributes the role of Mediatrix to Mary, but the BIBLE in 1Timothy 2:5 says, “There is one God and ONE mediator…the man, Christ Jesus.” The Catechism in 841 says, the Catholic Church and the Muslim faith both believe in the same God. However, the Muslim god does NOT have a son, per Islam. By the way, NO WHERE in the Bible does it ever say, that Mary is the mother of God (she was the earthly mother of the human nature of Jesus who was still God from eternity past) nowhere in the BIBLE does it ever say to pray to Mary or the saints, nowhere in the BIBLE does it ever say Mary was or is a PERPETUAL virgin, in fact Matthew 13:35 speaks of her other children, four sons by name and at least two sisters. The Greek words in this passage does NOT allow for cousins, but is properly translated brothers and sisters. Nowhere in the BIBLE does it ever say Mary was immaculately conceived, nor does it ever say that she was sinless or rose bodily into Heaven; these concepts are NOT in the BIBLE! I could go on and on. There are many, many more areas where the Catholic Church has added to scripture doctrines that are not there and, in fact, go totally against the BIBLE.
Nothing more nicer and more wonderful than very slowly over the years having an influence toward true faith on one who was brought up a catholic. I've always passionately told him there's no such thing as purgatory. I now may have to humble myself and tell him I was wrong all these 20yrs I've known him.
Just an opinion from your audience; the crackling fire sounds in the background are very distracting, unpleasant, and make it hard to focus on and digest what you’re saying.
Thank you for the informative video. I've been gaining valuable insights from your content. Could you create a video clarifying the intermediate state of believers? I was always taught that it is immediate for believers to enter God's presence after death. Is this biblical? I'm curious if everyone needs to experience correction in the lake of fire or just those who reject God in their lifetime.
As Paul said, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8. But Christ also said, Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will still live, even if he dies. Whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” - John 11:24-25 From this it is apparent to me that for Christians there is an experiential life we go to before the general resurrection of the dead. As Christ said to the penitent thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise".
Good point because, since Christ's Resurrection, Christians are depicted as entering into heaven (ie. souls under the altar in Rev, etc). I've observed that there are two-threshholds in the plan of Salvation. Passover = outer court of temple (all Israel), Pentecost = Holy Place (priesthood). When Israel left Egypt, they still had Egypt in them. They failed Pentecost, though Levites half-recovered. When you look at the parables of soils, etc.... thinking not all make it to the Seal/Guarantee/Earnest (Holy Spirit Victory). There is something layered happening......
The pre-existence of souls doctrine people went NUTS panicking over and rebuking. WHY!? Does ANYONE know why some felt this was so dangerous and false? I have never heard a reason.
They really didn't articulate what the problem was other than a couple theologians were stirring up a lot of controversy with that idea and leaning on Origen as their authority. So they were really after them not Origen.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 Origen was no theological slouch. If he talked about it then I'm looking into it for sure. I await the day someone tells me one good reason why it is dangerous. I have yet to hear a single one.
@@artbyrobot1 The >pre-existence of Souls< is dangerous doctrine because it facilitates gnostic ideas and Mormon cosmology (LDS) Origenes also never had a good basis for that doctrine: he basically took from Romans 9:11-14 in typical fashion, twisting it out of context. Origenes argued that for God to curse a man (Esau) in his mothers womb, the accursed would have to have done something worthy of damnation... which goes against Romans 9:16-22. Paul argued that God "has mercy on whom [he chooses to] have mercy". It is divine will and forebearance of God; not merit. Origenes was a dangerous heretic.
@@a-sheepof-christ9027 you say "The >pre-existence of Souls< is dangerous doctrine because it facilitates gnostic ideas" --- how so? Can you be even more vague please? You say "he basically took from Romans 9:11-14 in typical fashion, twisting it out of context." --- prove it. You say " It is divine will and forebearance of God; not merit." --- prove it You say "Origenes was a dangerous heretic." --- I disagree. Prove it.
@@artbyrobot1 That is some shady practice: Why cut off my statement and omit "...and Mormon cosmology" from my remark? The obvious conclusion is that you wanted to hide the fact that only Mormons - at large - teach preexistence of souls: because a connection to the Mormon churches would ofcourse be a damning indication for any doctrine or idea - even for us Universalists... Universalism itself was never outright declared heresy in any important council: pre-existence was declared heresy in the second council of constantinople: think about that.
@The Total Victory of Christ What do you thin about the lake of fire being the Dead Sea based on Sodom and Gomorrah’s location (Jude 1:7) and Isaiah 34:9-10 describing the location of the lake of fire?
The "lake of fire" is a mistranslation of the bible in English. Everywhere else it's the pool, or basin, of fire. It's the crucible metaphor from the Old Testament (Malachi 3:2-4. Proverbs 17:3). Sulfur has been used in gold and silver refining since ancient times. When you heat up the gold to a very high temperature it doesn't react with the sulfur but the unwanted metals, lead, tin, etc. do react are are transformed into sulfides that float to the top of the crucible as slag that is easily skimmed off the gold. SEE Refined in the Lake of Fire ruclips.net/video/4lHWv4zM7iA/видео.html
Hmm, gave me things to digest. I've some of the same questions as you. like, what is this "2nd death" if hell is forever, or what's the point of White Throne judgement if one's fate is sealed at death, is that just a pointless technicality? also wondering if in the outer darkness there are really only 2 types of souls: 1) weeping = remorseful of their choices in life as it relates to God but desire God and 2) gnashing of teeth = still very angry and hateful towards all things relating to God, and this is what actually gets settled at the White Throne judgement?
For what it's worth, I believe that the unsaved are burnt up after their judgment . Not burning up. But burnt up to total destruction. The effects of this burning are eternal insofar as once burnt and destroyed, they can never again be resurrected onto life. Why bother with the second judgement at all then? I have heard two explanations: 1 Although the unsaved are to be damned onto death, they are to be punished for their sins before being killed in the fire. Someone who lived a depraved life and who enjoyed hurting others can expect more punishment than one who lived a good, moral life according to his own standards, but who nonetheless rejected Christ. 2 The judging is a testing process, not the mere declaration of guilt. The books are the books of the bible and they are opened, or explained, to the sinner who had not the chance in life to hear the gospel. It is depending on how he reacts to hearing of God's law and gospel grace as to whether his name is then added to the book of life. The second scenario would maybe satisfy our own curiosity as to how God could damn someone who had never heard of him. But is this edging towards biblical universal salvation? Certainly Christ paid the punishment for everyone. So why should anyone now be punished of themselves? I honestly don't know which explanation makes better sense biblically. She do know that the Catholic reason for believing in their form of purgatory is scripturally unsupported.
@@geordiewishart1683 What do you mean by "Christ paid the punishment for everyone"? If you mean penal substitutionary atonement (PSA), that's contrary to the Bible also--like, we'd be hard-pressed to find anything more contrary to the Bible. (I say that as someone having had believed in PSA most of my life.) If not PSA, then what does "saved/unsaved" mean? Saved from what? Also reconcile with God willing that none shall perish and Jesus' claiming none will be snatched from his hand--did they really say/mean "none" or being hyperbolic or merely well-wishing, as if only to hope it all works out?
the majority of christians and pastors they believe and they preach that the hell fire is endless torment or lake of fire second death is endless torment or eternity hell fire or everlasting punishment or eternal hell fire this is believe and preach by many christians and pastors and they also believe that we can forfiet and lose salvation and end in hell fire if we go on sinning and habitual sinning and keep sinning disobedience and sin they preach and believe that we can forfiet and lose salvation by that sinning live in sinning.
Is purgatory Biblical? Not according to the New Catholic Encyclopedia, which says: "In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”
Curious Protestant here (I know You said you’re an evangelical). How does anyone reconcile the thief on the cross next to Jesus and still justify purgatory?
@@John3_16_ One thing the penitent thief shows us is that God's grace is freely given upon that change of heart. And God is the same gracious being after we die as he is before we die.
@@John3_16_ How do you figure? It sounded to me like his punishment and Jesus' grace did the job--that was his refinement. What happened to the other bloke on the cross?
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” I looked at the context of the verse since it is the one I want to use to counter your position. But it looks like a statement not for the masses, but relating to Christ. Jesus ascended after speaking to Mary and wouldn't let her touch Him. This was part of His glorification process. So the father Judged Christ' work as worthy, hence, once to die, then to judgement. However, in the classic protestant sense of the passage it deflates the argument for Purgatory. With that said, I really wonder what Christ preached to the dead in hell for those 3 days. I don't build doctrine off of Luke 16 because it isn't A. A parable that Jesus explains. B. It isn't a parable about the kingdom. Jesus was responding to Pharisees. No where else is there any reference to Abraham's bossom. I have heard; hearsay, that the talmud has it and Jesus was using it because only the pharisee would understand it. My understanding as of now: Tartarus is the place for the fallen and nephelim while Sheol or Hades is the realm of the dead. After Jesus' victory we now have a direct line thanks to His finished work. Paul says He'd rather be apart from the body to be present with Christ. If universal salvation is true I find Johan interesting since The fish's belly is called hell. The typology is Jonah escaped hell after running away from God. Also, your reference to 1Co3 and the fire is a direct tie in to the Bema Judgement. Again, typology is the Fiery furnace in Babylon. 3 went in, 4 seen, one like the Son of Man, they are singing. The Bema Judgement will be instantaneous in my opinion.
Question: do christians undergo purgatory too? I read that Gregory of Nyssa only believers the unbeliever goes to purgatory and not believers. I just want clarification
I think Total Victory quoted Jesus saying we'll all be salted with fire. Chaff will burn off, precious stones remain. I WANT to be purified and all my sinful nature burned away
From the Universalist perspective there is a dying to the self to live for Christ when one goes through the crucible of Purgatory, a kind of Baptism by fire, hence a second death. We all have to go through that, one way or the other. (Matthew 3:11, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 5:24, Galatians 6:14, Romans 6:4-6)
That seems like a very long time to me. I can't say with certainty that he is out yet, but I would hope he is at least resting in peace at this point, if not already in the fellowship.
I was raised Roman Catholic, but my parents converted to Baptist when I was in Jr. High, but as a young adult I got involved with the Evangelical community, and my wife is an Evangelical. So I've been exposed to the whole spectrum, but consider myself an Evangelical.
@fillup2117 non-denominational might be what you’re searching for… no “denomination” Is going to come close to having the freedom to express truths such as the ones shared on this page. Find a grace based non denominational church near you would be my advice
Brothers and sisters: how do you know that Hades/ purgatory etc. is NOT the final judgement, like in this bible parable f. e? Lazarus and the rich man. I ask it as I would like to have know terminal fire being out there, called here whatever. I want to believe in it BUT THERE IS NO FINAL PROOF IN THE BIBLE! We take us unto these interpretations: our understanding the Bible, our preconceptions! After 50 years reading the Bible I came to that conclusion that ONLY GOD KNOWS HOW IS IT: HE IS THE FIRE ANYWAY! I asked Him, but still He did not answer. Only trusting Him unconditionally remains for me. I am His and He is mine forever, that is what I know, John 15,3-5. The rest are opinions.God bless you all and see you on the clouds! 💚🙏🔥🕊️👑
the majority of christians and pastors they believe and they preach that the hell fire is endless torment or lake of fire second death is endless torment or eternity hell fire or everlasting punishment or eternal hell fire this is believe and preach by many christians and pastors and they also believe that we can forfiet and lose salvation and end in hell fire if we go on sinning and habitual sinning and keep sinning disobedience and sin they preach and believe that we can forfiet and lose salvation by that sinning live in sinning.
@@vince.sarigumba go with the majority view always and you will never go wrong. Like for example the majority believe we should all turn gay. Go with that too because it has to be true if the majority say it. Losing salvation is a MINORITY view. OSAS is majority. I reject OSAS and I reject literal eternal punishment because they are both doctrines of demons.
I'm also bothered when I hear fellow Christians talking about God making us forget about the lost in Heaven and in the world to come. If all truth will be revealed in the end, then an eternal punishment would still be revealed, wouldn't it?
We are not "souls". We are "spirit".....just as God is ( John 4:24 ) We can NEVER die. The "soul" dies....over and over again and is "punished" accordingly HERE , in this evil world (age). The spirit that we are is what is being refined and purified. We are "children" of God.....NOT "pets". In this flesh we are "souls".....we are "creatures"....."created beings"....."human" = humus (DIRT) man. "SPIRIT" is all that truly exist....being UNCREATED. "It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing (is worthless). "
Our spirit is perfect and righteous. It cannot be refined. It is the spirit of God and it gives life to our soul as Christ is manifested in our heart and mind and the old man(carnal mind is destroyed). Once our soul(mind and heart) is made perfect then this body puts on incorruption and immortality. Enoch was translated. He became one with God. Mind soul and body. The Holy Sprit(Holiest of Holies in us. Christ in us) works from the inside out. Spirit-Soul then Body made one with God. Our new High Priest( Jesus) starts in the Holiest of Holies in us unlike the Old Testament High Priest who had to go from the Outer Courts then Holy Place then Holiest of Holies to meet God on the mercy seat. We are Gods Holy temple being restored. Christ in You the Hope of Glory. The Mystery hidden before the foundation of the World. We are the new heavens and earth. Each one of us. The old is passing away.
@@jeffk188 ...."God is Spirit" ( John 4:24 ) The word "spirit" in scripture is a METAPHOR for the "mind" . "God" is MIND ( Thought and Consciousness )......NOT some "entity out there" somewhere . The Hebrew is "ruach" and means "breath" or wind. The Greek is "pneuma" and means "air". When our breath, wind or air goes past our "two edged sword" ( another metaphor for our TONGUE ) we form a "word" that reveals our "heart" ( another metaphor for our "WILL" of mind ). " In the beginning was the Word ( Greek = Logos = "Revealed Thought" ) and the Word was with God and the Word was God . " ( John 1:1 ) " The WORD of God is ALIVE, powerful and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing and dividing even unto the soul (flesh) and spirit (mind) , the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the THOUGHTS and intents of the heart. " ( will of mind ) ( Hebrews 4:12 ) ALSO......the words "serpent", "devil", "Satan", "Dragon", "man of sin", "man of lawlessness", "son of perdition", etc...... these are ALL METAPHORS for the "CARNAL MIND" of man. There is NO "boogie man" out to get us........WE are our own worst "enemy" .
@@jeffk188 ......."spirit" ( mind/thought/consciousness ) is what we ARE......not the meat suit we wear . Our meat suit (flesh) is our "soul" ( nephesh = "creature" or created being ). All animals are "souls" as we "humans" are . Our "sin" is that we are deceived by our flesh, and men worship "DIRT".......LITERALLY ! Everything you can see with your physical eyes is "DIRT".......LITERALLY . We "KILL, STEAL, and DESTROY" ourselves and others over "DIRT"......LITERALLY ! "Do not love the world ( kosmos = physical creation ) or the thing in the world. If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him, for ALL that is in the world, the desires of the eyes, the desires of the flesh, and the pride of (FALSE) life is NOT of the Father, but is of the world ." ( 1 John 2:15 )
@@TheWhyisthatso Amen to everything you wrote. Your Words of Life from the Spirit has blessed me. They are truth. The Dragon in Revelation 12 isn’t a fallen angry angelic entity but a fallen angry carnal mind that started out as a serpent and grown into a Dragon(satan/ beast/false prophet/ pride of man/ religious false doctrines/ self righteousness , man of sin ,anti christ, worldly wisdom etc ) and it’s a killer. But the Lord Jesus Christ has overcome all. Greater is He who is IN US(Jesus)then he(Satan)who is in the world(our flesh) 👍🍷🍞🔥🕊
@@jeffk188 ....The words "Holy Spirit" simply means a "different mind" ( see Numbers 14:24 ) . "holy" means "set apart from" or "separate from" or simply "different" . "spirit" means "mind" (thought and consciousness). "God" is a "Seven fold Spirit" ( Revelation 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, 5:6 and others ). Among these are "Wisdom", "Understanding", "Knowledge", etc . ( Isaiah 11:2 ) There is also "Truth"......and Jesus is NOW the "Spirit of Truth" ( John chapter 14 ) As the "Spirit ( or Mind) of Truth"....this is HOW Jesus is "IN" those that belong to Him . This is also how they ( the "elect" ) CANNOT be deceived .
Dies Irae! Dies Illa! Oh Day of Wrath, Dreadful Day...~ This video's claim (early on) that The Day of Judgement is a day of joy is positively absurd, of course, completely in defiance of what Christians have always believed.
Purgatory is solidly a scriptural Christian doctrine that has existed since antiquity. Has nothing to do with erasing sins, Christ did that, it's about correcting bad behavior.
Have you ever tried looking into Orthodox Christianity? It seems you enjoy getting into patristics, and I'm sure Orthodoxy would provide you a unique perspective into that.
My wife and I are Evangelicals and we enjoy the unbridled worship that community affords us. But I have no problem with the Orthodox church community, I could easily embrace that community as my own, and I know they are more open to the doctrine of Universal Restoration. If the Evangelicals ever kick me out I'll be there. But I know a number of Evangelicals who embrace Universal Restoration, I'm not completely alone.
How do you get past the idea, while you’re in a church service, that most everyone around you thinks that God tortures his most of His creation for all eternity?
@@changstein I think if the truth could be know there would be many in church show do not think God tortures his creation. Especially for all eternity.
I'm still not buying this. The ONLY 'evidence' there is of any kind of purgatory in the entire Bible is a story that's very likely a parable. It seems to me that if there was a purgatory, we'd be told about this clearly and repeatedly, but the only kind of judgement we hear about (outside of this one parable) is the final judgement on the Day of the Lord. I actually do believe that there's some kind of punishment that results in the refining and purification of the soul, but that's after judgement and may be related to the Lake of Fire.
I reject purgatory because people come out when you put money into the coffer … you can’t buy what only Jesus can pay for but I do believe the lake of fire is purification
According to the Bible, the lake of fire is the “second death.” This is the ultimate consequence of sin, which is to be totally cut off from God. The lake of fire will be a place of perpetual suffering and misery. Scripture indicates that every person whose name is not in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). The lake of fire will also be the fate of the beast and false prophet from the end times (Revelation 19:20), as well as Satan himself (Revelation 20:10). The Bible indicates that both death and Hades-the temporary destination of the unsaved dead-will also be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14).
@@TerryF-ht4qf the lake of fire is for purification, the sulfur is used to refined dross from gold, and "tormented" in Revelation 20:10 is "basanizo" in greek which is "the testing of metals by the touchstone". This has to do with the imagery of a metallurgist refining precious metal. For a parrallel check out Isaiah 1:24-26 to see how God deals with His enemies.
Very good! Believe the Bible teaches at death we sleep waiting the resurrection, when our lord Jesus returns he will set up as Kingdom believe in Israel will reign with him in that Thousand-Year Kingdom then will the gentiles have their Resurrection
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 what about the traditional belief in hell fire that its eternal hell fire and those who cast into hell fire cannot come out in that eternity hell fire punish
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 my pastor ondo and my uncle edgar they said to us that once you are in the final judgment and cast into eternal hell fire you cannot get out there but suffer eternal torment or endless punishment in hell fire
@@vince.sarigumba That's not in the bible, that idea comes from Augustine who was clearly confused on the subject. Punishment even after the final judgment is still a refining metaphor. Christ's words, they are cast into "the furnace of fire", an Old Testament refining metaphor Isaiah 48:10, Deuteronomy 4:20, Proverbs 17:3. I did make that point in this presentation, but maybe not with the clarity it deserved.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 I hear a baptist preacher who believe and preach that only few people will go to heaven and that the majority of people will go to hell fire to be tormented in eternal hell fire or endless punishment or eternity torment hell fire and Its Very Sad to me because they believe that kind of idea that the second death or the lake of fire is endless torment or eternity hell fire.
At the end of Gregory of nyssa life become infernalist believe eternal punishment in his last days, in his belief of judas and in psalms 58 :10 because of judas sins and his purgatorial punishment will extend into infenity the case of judas iscariot and similar siners.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 eclectic orthodoxy website.the end of the last writtings of gregory of nyssa at the end of his life he become an infernalist eternal torment believer because of his belief about judas iscariot who commit a grave sin that its better for judas iscariot not to be born because the punishment for the purpose of purgation for judas and similar sinner will extend into infenity and i also discover that gregory believe that judas and similar sinner like him they cannot be save and the purgatorial punishment of judas iscariot extend into infenity. I dont know if this infenity is eternity or not. And also he comments the book of psalms 58:10
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 sir many are mocking and laughing at me because I Believe that hell fire lake of fire Will Come to An End, I Believe in Universal Salvation and many are mocking and laughing at me because they believe in everlasting punishment hell fire and they believe in endless torment or everlasting hell fire eternity hell fire they believe and they mock and laugh at me Because I Believe in Universal Reconciliation.
when you can't justify your views with actual scripture you can always find some "church father" to justify them. thankfully I don't rely on St. Augustine for inspired literature.
I dont know if gregory of nyssa is actualy believe eternity hell fire torment all i know is he believe judas and similar sinner like him there punishment in the purpose of purgation extend into infenity and also he comments the verse of psalms 58:10 about those who are in heaven and in hell fire
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 i dont know if he believe in endless torment , Saint Gregory of Nyssa He Believed In Universal Salvation and we dont know if the indefinite period or infenity he talks about is for an age and Has An End because most of his writtings is Universalism
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 the majority of christians and pastors they believe and they preach that the hell fire is endless torment or lake of fire second death is endless torment or eternity hell fire or everlasting punishment or eternal hell fire this is believe and preach by many christians and pastors and they also believe that we can forfiet and lose salvation and end in hell fire if we go on sinning and habitual sinning and keep sinning disobedience and sin they preach and believe that we can forfiet and lose salvation by that sinning live in sinning.
Gregory of nyssa stop believing universal salvation because in his last writtings he believe in judas iscariot and similar sinner there punishment in the purpose of Purgation will extend into infenity
In some of your other videos you were pushing the "soul sleep" view. This video pushes moreso my view of the souls of the dead being in a realm of the dead conscious and undergoing correction as they wait out the resurrections. I rejoice in this improvement I'm seeing since soul sleep is another doctrine of devils.
Of course, the soul sleep view comes from the Old Testament. But we see the purgatorial view in the New Testament, which is likely related to the resurrection of Christ. Christ went to preach the Gospel to the prisoners of death after he rose from the dead.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 that's because the old testament solomon wrote some stuff that could be mistaken. I think it's called hyperbole. The dead know nothing for example is hyperbole. Their corpse knows nothing. Their ghost of course knows much. He meant their corpse. We can't say the Old Testament contradicts the New. They have to be harmonized.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 Christ never preached to human souls as the "prisoners of death"? The verses 1 Peter 3:19 and Jude 1:6-1:9 suggest he spoke to the demonic Spirits of Noah's times which created the Naphil-Giborrim (genesis 6:1-4) which are still held in "chains" in a conscious wake state and are waiting for their punishment in the Lake of fire (Revelation 14:11). Paul in contrast, clearly uses language of slumber and sleep in 1 Corinthians 15:18 and 1 thessalonians 4:14. Alone the suggestion by some that the "Old testament had it wrong" on soul sleep does not match Paul's stance on that (2 Timothy 3:16).
@@artbyrobot1yes, Lazarus parable is pre death/Resurrection. Also, He unlocked hades and led captivity captive, hence why the souls are in heaven in Revelation. Jonah is praying from Sheol. The SDA teach the soul can't exist without the body, but you can see with the boy that hit his head and Rachel's death their souls departing and returning. The dead know nothing "under the sun" is the whole context.... so, not hyperbole per say, but definitely regarding their corpse. Agree, doctrine of devil. But man o man is it gaining traction.
@@artbyrobot1The dead know nothing is true. Once you die and go to Hell, you will know nothing of what is happening on earth. The " dead" are sinners,unbelievers. The ones who rest, are alive in Christ. They are born again believers. They have a new spirit from God, love God with all their hearts, soul,mind and strength, obey and do his will on earth. These called saints, believers, Christians will go to Heaven! Grace be with you
The story of the rich man and Lazarus you describe is not biblical but damnable. Here is why. Some might be convinced to be true and they will end up in hell on account of you. They will say what is the used to stop sinning if I'm still going to make it to heaven anyway? Sir, there is no mercy after you die mercy is offered while you are still alive on earth therefore no purgatory. The wage of sin is death. Imagine poor Lazarus lived a life of complete poverty and suffering miserably and died righteously and the rich man lived a life of wealth, pleasure, and sin and died in sin and you think Jesus will accept him in heaven? What a lie from the pit of hell. Where is God's justice? Repent or you will likewise perish and end in hell yourself.
When I studied the early Greek church fathers in the 2nd century, what alarmed me most was not only did they not teach the doctrine of endless punishment, they don't even seem to know about such a concept. They believed in thorough punishment, to the last penny, and for the ultimate good of the sinner, not endless punishment. Hence I always teach repentance from sin and giving your life to Christ.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 It really doesn't matter what the early church fathers said: what does the Bible say. Matthew 25:31-36 says, "Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed. . . And these will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life.” Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement no rest day or night makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence.
@@MB777-qr2xv I agree we need to lean on scripture. But you might want to ask why those reading the original manuscripts in their native language understood these passages so differently? Study it yourself there are a good number of Greek/English lexicons you can avail yourself of at archive (org). The older lexicons seem to be more reliable, but you need to at least learn the Greek alphabet to look these words up. They assume you already know a little Greek. All these scholars know this.
The Church has always taught that there are only 4 Last Things (God Himself NOT being a "thing"): Death. Judgement. Heaven. Hell. The first two take place for each individual once. The second two endure forever. There is NO purgatory in the list. Yet Church teaching has also always stipulated the existence of purgatory. A puzzling situation, i admit...
Love your videos. Have to disagree on this one though. The soul dies (ezek 18:4). The dead are unconscious (eccl 9: 5,10). If something survives death, then they are alive. God told Adam he would dies and return to the dust.
This is true, the Old Testament teaches soul sleep. What changed that is the resurrection of Christ! He went and woke-up the prisoners of death to tell them the Good News! 1 Peter 4:6 "For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit."
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 Ahh ok I see what you're saying. I lean toward those spirits in prison being the fallen angels in Tartarus from the flood. I think the context bears that out. Of course, we believe that God will rwconcile those demons and even Satan, so it makes sense. Thanks for the response.
@@keithferrante6915 Please share the scripture that mentions this "soul sleep". The spirit is simply the life force returning to God, the person goes into God's memory awaiting a future ressurection. Jesus likened death to sleep, the whole person sleeps in death, as the example of Lazarus shows. The teaching of an immortal sould goes back to ancient pagandom, Egypt, Babylon, Greece...
@@russcollins8998 Phillipians 2v9-11, Rom 11v32-36, Colossians 1v15-20, Rom 5v12-21, 1Tim2v3-4, 2Pet 3v9, 1Cor 15, Lamentations 3 to start with and the hope of Apokatastasis is throughout Isaiah. Yes there is judgement, scripture is clear about that but it is the nature of that judgement and the aim of that judgement that we need to consider God said, 'Let us make Mankind in our image', judgement and punishment (kolasis not timoria - restorative not retributive) is part of that process and in, through anf for Christ ut is finished. Grace and Peace.
Before I watch this video (now 10 months old) I already know purgatory is not biblical. If you die as an unbeliever, you go to hell. If you are a believer but have no faith, you go to hell. If you have faith but think it's ok to go right on sinning your whole life because Jesus paid the price for it, you're going to hell. You will stay there until the great white throne judgement, where you will stand before the Lord. In his perfect mercy he may give people one last chance somehow, we don't know this for sure or if you just get chucked into oblivion because you've been in hell for a thousand years. We don't know. What I do know is that people have been taking the concept of having gone to hell and calling it purgatory. I don't know the exact reason they did this, but perhaps it's because 'purgatory' sounds less permanent and the "church" offered "intercession" FOR A FEE. Hell gets destroyed along with heaven and Earth on the day of judgement, then a NEW Heaven and NEW Earth is created, but no hell. Those that would still deserve hell get pitched into oblivion, outside all God's creation, which is the void....oblivion....nothing. I know people keep quoting "the lake of fire". That's what the bible says, yes, and that was taken from what Jesus said about Gehenna. Gehenna was the trash pit for Jerusalem, and it was constantly burning. It's not because it was burning that it was related to hell and the destination after the final judgement, it's because it's a TRASH PIT. What do you do with refuse but toss it in the trash pit? God "throwing out the garbage" does not mean he intends to torture those who get tossed there eternally. It's going to be worse than that, so much so that torture would seem like bliss in comparison. When you reject God, you turn your face from him. When he turns his face from you, that means he's ejecting you from his creation, which is EVERYTHING. Now, hell was a creation of God. After the judgement you wont get even THAT. Now here's the implications of being ejected from God's creation into the void, or oblivion: - There is no SPACE there. It's nothing, not even emptiness. Most can't even conceive of this concept, but it's the total absence of all God created. - There is no time. At all. Time is a construct God created because in our world, in Heaven, and even in hell there is cause and effect. No time means you are there (nowhere) in the same state you were when you entered it for eternity. Nothing changes, there is no cause and effect, therefore you can't even have a new thought such as a diversionary daydream or fantasy. Just the realization that you have arrived 'there' and will spend eternity 'there' without God. - No senses of touch, sight, smell, hearing. There is nothing to touch there. Nothing to smell there. Nothing to see there. Nothing to hear there. Nothing nothing nothing is outside God's creation. Period. - You will not have the Lord in your presence. Anywhere, for eternity. You will not even 'sense' the Lord as you can today, as mildly as you might be able to or not. You will not feel the Holy Spirit within you, because he will not be within you. There is nobody in that nothing but you, and nothing else. No torture by little red devils poking you with pitchforks or roasting you over a fire of burning sulfur. Just the realization that you are there eternally. That's it. You will only realize that, and probably why you are there at the same time, knowing it will never end. God is not a merciless, torturous prison keeper. He will not make sure you suffer endless proactive torment for eternity. He did not want that you happen to you, but you, as the recipient of this end, insisted on denying, rejecting the Lord, so this is the result. The garbage heap, the Gehenna, of eternity. You will not even be able to "fade away into nothing" to escape this eternal fate. That would require time, and where the void of oblivion outside God's creation is, there is no time. You are eternal, so you will spend that moment dying for eternity. THIS is what happens to the wicked, evil, and rebellious, and this is why God does not wish to lose even one of his creations. Unfortunately, he will lose a lot of them. Most of them probably. Knowing this grieves him makes me feel bad, but it also leads me to believe he has plans that extend beyond this, and we cannot comprehend them. Ultimately there may be salvation some time some where for the damned ones, I don't know. But remember, God is perfect in everything, including in his mercy, and we cannot comprehend his mind. God's plan, which he knew from end to beginning before it happened, includes our salvation. It's our complete story that he not only began but ended as well, from a place in eternity that only God can comprehend. For anyone to say that they know all of God's plan is to believe they know his mind, and that is impossible for us in our current state. It may be impossible eternally. We do not know. I did not intend to write this all out again, darnit. I got on a roll and let things just go. It happens every so often. There is much more to it than this even, so much more. Just read your bibles and strive toward Jesus Christ and you wont have to worry about any of this anyway. That's my advice to anyone reading....
Baloney. You are receiving people into believing they can get a second chance. Who are you to question God. Read what Jesus said about Hell. I don't care what the"church fathers" said!
If you deny that God will eventually save all, you are left with two logical possibilities. A. It is God's will for us to deceive people into becoming universalists.[Which implies that God wants people to be damned] So who are YOU to question God's will? B. It is against God's will to deceive people into becoming universalists but He is powerless to stop us. Both seem pretty absurd to me, extreme calvinists may have no qualms about saying that God simply uses heretics to accoplish a desire to damn people, but they often want to have their cake and eat it too. The fact is, either God wants people to be damned, which means that He probably aint interested in washing His hands of His responsibility in it. Or a person can go the arminian route and say that we are decieving people against god's desires but poor ol god just can't do anything to thwart our false teaching[arminianism insinuates or even openly claims that God is quite limited in His abilities]. I guess it makes sense for arminians to fear "false teachers", because they believe that we can truly thwart God's desires[which logically implies that He is extremely limited in His abilities]. It makes no sense for calvinists to put all the responsibility on us, I doubt that the god that calvinism describes would even want to wash his hands of the responsibility. A god who would damn people for his "glory" is not going to go through the trouble of justifying himself not going to be embarrssed about it. Such a god would simply say "You don't agree with my will? What are you going to do about it, punk!?" :) So "So then why should universalist care about false teaching?" We do not concede and do not fear that false teachers will overcome God's desire to save all. Many/most of us do believe that God has given us power to make choices within certain limits and that these choices can affect our lives for better or worse. False teaching that is in opposition to important teachings is a "danger" to people's flourishing, but not an eternal danger. We should not tremble at the spread of false teaching, we should scoff at it and maybe attempt to talk some sense into people if they are not totally given over to vanity, but we do so with the confident assurance that nothing can thwart God's desires from being fulfilled. Sin or to spread false teaching is craziness that we face consequences for, but it would be absolutely ridiculous to suppose that God would allow the madness of sin and false teaching to overcome His will/desire.
Keep up the great work my man. You’re channel helped me find the truth about universal reconciliation 5 years ago
my pastor ondo believe in endless torment or everlasting punishment in hell fire and many christians and pastors believe that that those whk judge in last judgment in eternal hell fire endless punishment in hell fire, many people and christians believe in endless torment or endless punishment in hell fire as people like to believe in that idea that it found in the bible in matthew 25:46 , revelation 14:9-11. My pastor and many christians believe in endless punishment hell fire
The majority of religion and christians also modern christians the majority of them believes in eternal hell fire or endless punishment or eternal punishment eternal hell fire they believe in that idea and they have verses in bible support there belief and majority of them are infernalist. May God Jesus Christ Have Mercy On Us All And To Saved Us All. Amen
Sir, many western Protestants have never encountered the early church’s teaching of The Harrowing of Hell found in many early church fathers’ writings. Would you give us a video on this topic?
Thank you. 😊
Great stuff! I have learned so much from your channel and very much respect your biblical literacy and your ambition to share this glorious hope with us.
The early church writing doesn't support the Catholic position at all. They have to take quotes out of context for everything. It's ridiculous if you actually check them.
Wow! Impressive work. Lots of good research here. It is "gold. silver, and precious stones."
the majority of christians and pastors they believe and they preach that the hell fire is endless torment or lake of fire second death is endless torment or eternity hell fire or everlasting punishment or eternal hell fire this is believe and preach by many christians and pastors and they also believe that we can forfiet and lose salvation and end in hell fire if we go on sinning and habitual sinning and keep sinning disobedience and sin they preach and believe that we can forfiet and lose salvation by that sinning live in sinning.
So encouraging and informative. Very helpful for my bible study group..
Thanks for the video and the work you do. God bless.
The majority of religion and christians also modern christians the majority of them believes in eternal hell fire or endless punishment or eternal punishment eternal hell fire they believe in that idea and they have verses in bible support there belief and majority of them are infernalist. May God Jesus Christ Have Mercy On Us All And To Saved Us All. Amen
brother still today i am in trouble because majority of christians and pastor they believe we can forfiet and lose salvation and end in eternal hell fire and become unsave again and lose salvation , they believe that because if we keep on sinning , habitualy sin, wilfuly sin, disobedience and falling away from faith that can forfiet and lose salvation and become unsave us and end in eternal hell fire. Thats there belief brother
@vince.sarigumba personally, I'd rather learn from scholars of the Hebrew and Greek language than learn from a blinded pastor who has been indoctrinated into a theology that fits a certain denomination. Plus I'd rather learn from historians who understand the culture, history and traditions of the Jewish people of that time period.
"It's not my intention to roast Augustine..."
Pun intended?
Although I do not believe the Catholic church as an organization is God's church on earth with His authority, I have come to realize and acknowledge that they have preserved some of the original teachings of Christ and His apostles. Purgatory is one of those topics I've changed my mind about. I'm also looking at Mary, the mother of our Lord, differently- not praying to her or worshipping her, but I think she does deserve more appreciation and honor than we (I) generally knew to give. Thank you for this video.
I'm a Christian Universalist, I don't believe in a purgatory. That said, the bible was written by people whos cosmology is literally ancient. We can and should glean from the scriptures but the Word of God is alive in us, it's not the bible.
I disagree. The bible itself says it is alive. Hebrews 4:12
The Bible is the word of God, it’s teachings evergreen.
1 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
@TerryF-ht4qf reading the bible is NOT the equivalent of studying the scriptures. That said, a more accurate translation of the verse you quoted is, "all scripture that is God-breathed..."
Context is everything, and when translations don't capture the context of the original text then the whole meaning changes.
To call the bible "the Word of God" is to literally displace Jesus, the Word of God, and commit idolatry. It's called biblio-idolotry.
@@SugarRayCharles. Jesus is the Word. Not the bible. John 1:1.
Answer: No, purgatory is unbiblical. That is settled.
Tell me didn't watch the video, without telling me you didnt video.
@@webz3589tell me you haven't read the Bible without telling me you haven't read the Bible.
@@joshportie i have and unlike yourself i have actually understood it.
@@webz3589 then why do you believe in things that contradict it? You couldn't have understood it if you think purgatory is real. Furthermore a great deal of the new testament refutes Catholicism.
@@joshportie There are many areas where the Catholic Church goes against or does not agree with the Bible. For instance, the Catholic Catechism in 1129 says, “…the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.” The BIBLE says, in Eph. 2:8, “Salvation is by faith, through grace, NOT WORKS…” Eph. 2:10 then says “we are saved UNTO good works.” The Catechism in 2010 says, “…we can then merit for ourselves graces needed for sanctification…and the attainment of eternal life.” The BIBLE in Romans 11:6 says, “God’s grace-His undeserved kindness in choosing them…it is not by their good works.” The Catechism in 846 says, “…the (Catholic) Church is necessary for salvation.” The BIBLE says in Acts 4:12 concerning the name of Jesus, “there is no other name under Heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.” The Catechism says, in 1339 talks of the bread and the wine becoming the body and blood of Jesus. The BIBLE in 1 Peter 2:24 says, “He (JESUS) personally carried our sins in his body on the cross.” The Catechism in 1323 says, “the Savior instituted the Eucharist to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross through the ages…” The BIBLE in John 13:30 has Jesus saying, “It is finished.” The Catechism in 552, 765, and 880 says, “Peter is the head of the Apostles. The BIBLE in John 13:13 declares Jesus to be the disciples’ Lord and Teacher. The Catechism in 964 intimates that Mary’s union with Christ is inseparable from Christ in the work of salvation; making Mary a co-redeemer with Jesus. The BIBLE has Jesus Himself saying, “I am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father (Heaven) but through Me.” The catechism in 2677 attributes the role of Mediatrix to Mary, but the BIBLE in 1Timothy 2:5 says, “There is one God and ONE mediator…the man, Christ Jesus.” The Catechism in 841 says, the Catholic Church and the Muslim faith both believe in the same God. However, the Muslim god does NOT have a son, per Islam. By the way, NO WHERE in the Bible does it ever say, that Mary is the mother of God (she was the earthly mother of the human nature of Jesus who was still God from eternity past) nowhere in the BIBLE does it ever say to pray to Mary or the saints, nowhere in the BIBLE does it ever say Mary was or is a PERPETUAL virgin, in fact Matthew 13:35 speaks of her other children, four sons by name and at least two sisters. The Greek words in this passage does NOT allow for cousins, but is properly translated brothers and sisters. Nowhere in the BIBLE does it ever say Mary was immaculately conceived, nor does it ever say that she was sinless or rose bodily into Heaven; these concepts are NOT in the BIBLE! I could go on and on. There are many, many more areas where the Catholic Church has added to scripture doctrines that are not there and, in fact, go totally against the BIBLE.
Nothing more nicer and more wonderful than very slowly over the years having an influence toward true faith on one who was brought up a catholic. I've always passionately told him there's no such thing as purgatory. I now may have to humble myself and tell him I was wrong all these 20yrs I've known him.
The Lake of Fire is the Second Death. That statement needs to be taken literally; it is NOT a period of purification...
Why does it need to be taken literally?
What’s your opinion of Mary K Baxter and Bill Wiese?
Just an opinion from your audience; the crackling fire sounds in the background are very distracting, unpleasant, and make it hard to focus on and digest what you’re saying.
Thank you for the informative video. I've been gaining valuable insights from your content. Could you create a video clarifying the intermediate state of believers? I was always taught that it is immediate for believers to enter God's presence after death. Is this biblical? I'm curious if everyone needs to experience correction in the lake of fire or just those who reject God in their lifetime.
As Paul said, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8. But Christ also said,
Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will still live, even if he dies. Whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” - John 11:24-25
From this it is apparent to me that for Christians there is an experiential life we go to before the general resurrection of the dead. As Christ said to the penitent thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise".
Good point because, since Christ's Resurrection, Christians are depicted as entering into heaven (ie. souls under the altar in Rev, etc).
I've observed that there are two-threshholds in the plan of Salvation. Passover = outer court of temple (all Israel), Pentecost = Holy Place (priesthood).
When Israel left Egypt, they still had Egypt in them. They failed Pentecost, though Levites half-recovered.
When you look at the parables of soils, etc.... thinking not all make it to the Seal/Guarantee/Earnest (Holy Spirit Victory).
There is something layered happening......
The pre-existence of souls doctrine people went NUTS panicking over and rebuking. WHY!? Does ANYONE know why some felt this was so dangerous and false? I have never heard a reason.
They really didn't articulate what the problem was other than a couple theologians were stirring up a lot of controversy with that idea and leaning on Origen as their authority. So they were really after them not Origen.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 Origen was no theological slouch. If he talked about it then I'm looking into it for sure. I await the day someone tells me one good reason why it is dangerous. I have yet to hear a single one.
@@artbyrobot1 The >pre-existence of Souls< is dangerous doctrine because it facilitates gnostic ideas and Mormon cosmology (LDS)
Origenes also never had a good basis for that doctrine: he basically took from Romans 9:11-14 in typical fashion, twisting it out of context.
Origenes argued that for God to curse a man (Esau) in his mothers womb, the accursed would have to have done something worthy of damnation...
which goes against Romans 9:16-22. Paul argued that God "has mercy on whom [he chooses to] have mercy". It is divine will and forebearance of God; not merit.
Origenes was a dangerous heretic.
@@a-sheepof-christ9027 you say "The >pre-existence of Souls< is dangerous doctrine because it facilitates gnostic ideas" --- how so? Can you be even more vague please?
You say "he basically took from Romans 9:11-14 in typical fashion, twisting it out of context." --- prove it.
You say " It is divine will and forebearance of God; not merit." --- prove it
You say "Origenes was a dangerous heretic." --- I disagree. Prove it.
@@artbyrobot1
That is some shady practice: Why cut off my statement and omit "...and Mormon cosmology" from my remark? The obvious conclusion is that you wanted to hide the fact that only Mormons - at large - teach preexistence of souls: because a connection to the Mormon churches would ofcourse be a damning indication for any doctrine or idea - even for us Universalists...
Universalism itself was never outright declared heresy in any important council: pre-existence was declared heresy in the second council of constantinople: think about that.
@The Total Victory of Christ What do you thin about the lake of fire being the Dead Sea based on Sodom and Gomorrah’s location (Jude 1:7) and Isaiah 34:9-10 describing the location of the lake of fire?
Revelation describes it as a process.
The "lake of fire" is a mistranslation of the bible in English. Everywhere else it's the pool, or basin, of fire. It's the crucible metaphor from the Old Testament (Malachi 3:2-4. Proverbs 17:3). Sulfur has been used in gold and silver refining since ancient times. When you heat up the gold to a very high temperature it doesn't react with the sulfur but the unwanted metals, lead, tin, etc. do react are are transformed into sulfides that float to the top of the crucible as slag that is easily skimmed off the gold. SEE Refined in the Lake of Fire ruclips.net/video/4lHWv4zM7iA/видео.html
Wonderful content as usual!
Sounds like what Jews refer to as Gehenna. A temporary place of purification.
Hmm, gave me things to digest. I've some of the same questions as you. like, what is this "2nd death" if hell is forever, or what's the point of White Throne judgement if one's fate is sealed at death, is that just a pointless technicality? also wondering if in the outer darkness there are really only 2 types of souls: 1) weeping = remorseful of their choices in life as it relates to God but desire God and 2) gnashing of teeth = still very angry and hateful towards all things relating to God, and this is what actually gets settled at the White Throne judgement?
For what it's worth, I believe that the unsaved are burnt up after their judgment . Not burning up. But burnt up to total destruction.
The effects of this burning are eternal insofar as once burnt and destroyed, they can never again be resurrected onto life.
Why bother with the second judgement at all then?
I have heard two explanations:
1
Although the unsaved are to be damned onto death, they are to be punished for their sins before being killed in the fire. Someone who lived a depraved life and who enjoyed hurting others can expect more punishment than one who lived a good, moral life according to his own standards, but who nonetheless rejected Christ.
2
The judging is a testing process, not the mere declaration of guilt. The books are the books of the bible and they are opened, or explained, to the sinner who had not the chance in life to hear the gospel. It is depending on how he reacts to hearing of God's law and gospel grace as to whether his name is then added to the book of life.
The second scenario would maybe satisfy our own curiosity as to how God could damn someone who had never heard of him.
But is this edging towards biblical universal salvation?
Certainly Christ paid the punishment for everyone. So why should anyone now be punished of themselves?
I honestly don't know which explanation makes better sense biblically.
She do know that the Catholic reason for believing in their form of purgatory is scripturally unsupported.
@@geordiewishart1683 What do you mean by "Christ paid the punishment for everyone"? If you mean penal substitutionary atonement (PSA), that's contrary to the Bible also--like, we'd be hard-pressed to find anything more contrary to the Bible. (I say that as someone having had believed in PSA most of my life.) If not PSA, then what does "saved/unsaved" mean? Saved from what?
Also reconcile with God willing that none shall perish and Jesus' claiming none will be snatched from his hand--did they really say/mean "none" or being hyperbolic or merely well-wishing, as if only to hope it all works out?
Great video like always. By the way is there a way I can contact you? I would love to help this ministry anyway I can so please let me know. Thanks.
The best way to help this ministry is share the videos far and wide.
the majority of christians and pastors they believe and they preach that the hell fire is endless torment or lake of fire second death is endless torment or eternity hell fire or everlasting punishment or eternal hell fire this is believe and preach by many christians and pastors and they also believe that we can forfiet and lose salvation and end in hell fire if we go on sinning and habitual sinning and keep sinning disobedience and sin they preach and believe that we can forfiet and lose salvation by that sinning live in sinning.
Is purgatory Biblical? Not according to the New Catholic Encyclopedia, which says: "In the final analysis, the Catholic doctrine on purgatory is based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture.”
Curious Protestant here (I know
You said you’re an evangelical). How does anyone reconcile the thief on the cross next to Jesus and still justify purgatory?
There was the penitent thief and the non-penitent thief. I assume they didn't have the same experience.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 yes, doesn’t the penitent thief who believed on Christ prove there is no “purgatory”?
@@John3_16_ One thing the penitent thief shows us is that God's grace is freely given upon that change of heart. And God is the same gracious being after we die as he is before we die.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 you ain’t wrong! 🙂
@@John3_16_ How do you figure? It sounded to me like his punishment and Jesus' grace did the job--that was his refinement. What happened to the other bloke on the cross?
Nice vid thanks
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” I looked at the context of the verse since it is the one I want to use to counter your position. But it looks like a statement not for the masses, but relating to Christ. Jesus ascended after speaking to Mary and wouldn't let her touch Him. This was part of His glorification process. So the father Judged Christ' work as worthy, hence, once to die, then to judgement. However, in the classic protestant sense of the passage it deflates the argument for Purgatory.
With that said, I really wonder what Christ preached to the dead in hell for those 3 days. I don't build doctrine off of Luke 16 because it isn't A. A parable that Jesus explains. B. It isn't a parable about the kingdom. Jesus was responding to Pharisees. No where else is there any reference to Abraham's bossom. I have heard; hearsay, that the talmud has it and Jesus was using it because only the pharisee would understand it. My understanding as of now: Tartarus is the place for the fallen and nephelim while Sheol or Hades is the realm of the dead. After Jesus' victory we now have a direct line thanks to His finished work. Paul says He'd rather be apart from the body to be present with Christ.
If universal salvation is true I find Johan interesting since The fish's belly is called hell. The typology is Jonah escaped hell after running away from God.
Also, your reference to 1Co3 and the fire is a direct tie in to the Bema Judgement. Again, typology is the Fiery furnace in Babylon. 3 went in, 4 seen, one like the Son of Man, they are singing. The Bema Judgement will be instantaneous in my opinion.
Question: do christians undergo purgatory too? I read that Gregory of Nyssa only believers the unbeliever goes to purgatory and not believers. I just want clarification
I think Total Victory quoted Jesus saying we'll all be salted with fire. Chaff will burn off, precious stones remain. I WANT to be purified and all my sinful nature burned away
Question: Why is the lake of fire the second death?
From the Universalist perspective there is a dying to the self to live for Christ when one goes through the crucible of Purgatory, a kind of Baptism by fire, hence a second death. We all have to go through that, one way or the other. (Matthew 3:11, Galatians 2:20, Galatians 5:24, Galatians 6:14, Romans 6:4-6)
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 Thanks for the response. Love your work!
So can that rich man get out of hell? Is he still there ?
That seems like a very long time to me. I can't say with certainty that he is out yet, but I would hope he is at least resting in peace at this point, if not already in the fellowship.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 Do you have proof a soul can get out of hell?
What denomination are you? I’m very interested in that because I feel lost in it
I was raised Roman Catholic, but my parents converted to Baptist when I was in Jr. High, but as a young adult I got involved with the Evangelical community, and my wife is an Evangelical. So I've been exposed to the whole spectrum, but consider myself an Evangelical.
@fillup2117 non-denominational might be what you’re searching for… no “denomination” Is going to come close to having the freedom to express truths such as the ones shared on this page. Find a grace based non denominational church near you would be my advice
Or just don't go to church
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838Come back to traditional Catholicism.
@@moonpye9082 I miss going to church I think stopping going is a mistake, even if they believe in hell. Now, Calvinism, that's good to avoid!
Brothers and sisters: how do you know that Hades/ purgatory etc. is NOT the final judgement, like in this bible parable f. e? Lazarus and the rich man. I ask it as I would like to have know terminal fire being out there, called here whatever. I want to believe in it BUT THERE IS NO FINAL PROOF IN THE BIBLE! We take us unto these interpretations: our understanding the Bible, our preconceptions! After 50 years reading the Bible I came to that conclusion that ONLY GOD KNOWS HOW IS IT: HE IS THE FIRE ANYWAY! I asked Him, but still He did not answer. Only trusting Him unconditionally remains for me. I am His and He is mine forever, that is what I know, John 15,3-5. The rest are opinions.God bless you all and see you on the clouds! 💚🙏🔥🕊️👑
Another great video sir. You are crushing it!
the majority of christians and pastors they believe and they preach that the hell fire is endless torment or lake of fire second death is endless torment or eternity hell fire or everlasting punishment or eternal hell fire this is believe and preach by many christians and pastors and they also believe that we can forfiet and lose salvation and end in hell fire if we go on sinning and habitual sinning and keep sinning disobedience and sin they preach and believe that we can forfiet and lose salvation by that sinning live in sinning.
@@vince.sarigumba go with the majority view always and you will never go wrong. Like for example the majority believe we should all turn gay. Go with that too because it has to be true if the majority say it.
Losing salvation is a MINORITY view. OSAS is majority. I reject OSAS and I reject literal eternal punishment because they are both doctrines of demons.
@@artbyrobot1 you believe in Universal Salvation after all punishment will be experience?
@@artbyrobot1 because if you dont believe in Osas then you believe that we can lose salvation and end up in eternal or endless punishment
@@artbyrobot1 so you believe we can lose salvation and then we go to hell fire eternal hell fire torment or endless punishment
I'm also bothered when I hear fellow Christians talking about God making us forget about the lost in Heaven and in the world to come. If all truth will be revealed in the end, then an eternal punishment would still be revealed, wouldn't it?
We are not "souls".
We are "spirit".....just as God is ( John 4:24 )
We can NEVER die.
The "soul" dies....over and over again and is "punished" accordingly HERE , in this evil world (age).
The spirit that we are is what is being refined and purified.
We are "children" of God.....NOT "pets".
In this flesh we are "souls".....we are "creatures"....."created beings"....."human" = humus (DIRT) man.
"SPIRIT" is all that truly exist....being UNCREATED.
"It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing (is worthless). "
Our spirit is perfect and righteous. It cannot be refined. It is the spirit of God and it gives life to our soul as Christ is manifested in our heart and mind and the old man(carnal mind is destroyed). Once our soul(mind and heart) is made perfect then this body puts on incorruption and immortality. Enoch was translated. He became one with God. Mind soul and body. The Holy Sprit(Holiest of Holies in us. Christ in us) works from the inside out. Spirit-Soul then Body made one with God. Our new High Priest( Jesus) starts in the Holiest of Holies in us unlike the Old Testament High Priest who had to go from the Outer Courts then Holy Place then Holiest of Holies to meet God on the mercy seat. We are Gods Holy temple being restored. Christ in You the Hope of Glory. The Mystery hidden before the foundation of the World. We are the new heavens and earth. Each one of us. The old is passing away.
@@jeffk188 ...."God is Spirit" ( John 4:24 )
The word "spirit" in scripture is a METAPHOR for the "mind" .
"God" is MIND ( Thought and Consciousness )......NOT some "entity out there" somewhere .
The Hebrew is "ruach" and means "breath" or wind.
The Greek is "pneuma" and means "air".
When our breath, wind or air goes past our "two edged sword" ( another metaphor for our TONGUE )
we form a "word" that reveals our "heart" ( another metaphor for our "WILL" of mind ).
" In the beginning was the Word ( Greek = Logos = "Revealed Thought" )
and the Word was with God and the Word was God . "
( John 1:1 )
" The WORD of God is ALIVE, powerful and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing and dividing
even unto the soul (flesh) and spirit (mind) , the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the THOUGHTS
and intents of the heart. " ( will of mind )
( Hebrews 4:12 )
ALSO......the words "serpent", "devil", "Satan", "Dragon", "man of sin", "man of lawlessness", "son of perdition", etc......
these are ALL METAPHORS for the "CARNAL MIND" of man.
There is NO "boogie man" out to get us........WE are our own worst "enemy" .
@@jeffk188 ......."spirit" ( mind/thought/consciousness ) is what we ARE......not the meat suit we wear .
Our meat suit (flesh) is our "soul" ( nephesh = "creature" or created being ).
All animals are "souls" as we "humans" are .
Our "sin" is that we are deceived by our flesh, and men worship "DIRT".......LITERALLY !
Everything you can see with your physical eyes is "DIRT".......LITERALLY .
We "KILL, STEAL, and DESTROY" ourselves and others over "DIRT"......LITERALLY !
"Do not love the world ( kosmos = physical creation ) or the thing in the world.
If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him,
for ALL that is in the world, the desires of the eyes, the desires of the flesh, and the pride of (FALSE) life
is NOT of the Father, but is of the world ."
( 1 John 2:15 )
@@TheWhyisthatso Amen to everything you wrote. Your Words of Life from the Spirit has blessed me. They are truth. The Dragon in Revelation 12 isn’t a fallen angry angelic entity but a fallen angry carnal mind that started out as a serpent and grown into a Dragon(satan/ beast/false prophet/ pride of man/ religious false doctrines/ self righteousness , man of sin ,anti christ, worldly wisdom etc ) and it’s a killer. But the Lord Jesus Christ has overcome all. Greater is He who is IN US(Jesus)then he(Satan)who is in the world(our flesh) 👍🍷🍞🔥🕊
@@jeffk188 ....The words "Holy Spirit" simply means a "different mind" ( see Numbers 14:24 ) .
"holy" means "set apart from" or "separate from" or simply "different" .
"spirit" means "mind" (thought and consciousness).
"God" is a "Seven fold Spirit" ( Revelation 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, 5:6 and others ).
Among these are "Wisdom", "Understanding", "Knowledge", etc . ( Isaiah 11:2 )
There is also "Truth"......and Jesus is NOW the "Spirit of Truth" ( John chapter 14 )
As the "Spirit ( or Mind) of Truth"....this is HOW Jesus is "IN" those that belong to Him .
This is also how they ( the "elect" ) CANNOT be deceived .
Dies Irae! Dies Illa! Oh Day of Wrath, Dreadful Day...~
This video's claim (early on) that The Day of Judgement is a day of joy is positively absurd, of course, completely in defiance of what Christians have always believed.
Purgatory is pegan believ that one can erease sins beside christs blood !
Purgatory is solidly a scriptural Christian doctrine that has existed since antiquity. Has nothing to do with erasing sins, Christ did that, it's about correcting bad behavior.
Interesting but ain't 1 cor 3 about man's work in context in preaching the gospel but to add to Christ finished work , the work is the person
Have you ever tried looking into Orthodox Christianity? It seems you enjoy getting into patristics, and I'm sure Orthodoxy would provide you a unique perspective into that.
My wife and I are Evangelicals and we enjoy the unbridled worship that community affords us. But I have no problem with the Orthodox church community, I could easily embrace that community as my own, and I know they are more open to the doctrine of Universal Restoration. If the Evangelicals ever kick me out I'll be there. But I know a number of Evangelicals who embrace Universal Restoration, I'm not completely alone.
How do you get past the idea, while you’re in a church service, that most everyone around you thinks that God tortures his most of His creation for all eternity?
@@changstein I think if the truth could be know there would be many in church show do not think God tortures his creation. Especially for all eternity.
What about those that don’t believe in God or Jesus? The rich man believed in God most likely.
Everyone
I'm still not buying this. The ONLY 'evidence' there is of any kind of purgatory in the entire Bible is a story that's very likely a parable. It seems to me that if there was a purgatory, we'd be told about this clearly and repeatedly, but the only kind of judgement we hear about (outside of this one parable) is the final judgement on the Day of the Lord. I actually do believe that there's some kind of punishment that results in the refining and purification of the soul, but that's after judgement and may be related to the Lake of Fire.
I reject purgatory because people come out when you put money into the coffer … you can’t buy what only Jesus can pay for but I do believe the lake of fire is purification
The idea of people putting money in a coffer and coming out is clearly not what he is speaking of, and that is not in the Bible either
According to the Bible, the lake of fire is the “second death.” This is the ultimate consequence of sin, which is to be totally cut off from God. The lake of fire will be a place of perpetual suffering and misery. Scripture indicates that every person whose name is not in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). The lake of fire will also be the fate of the beast and false prophet from the end times (Revelation 19:20), as well as Satan himself (Revelation 20:10). The Bible indicates that both death and Hades-the temporary destination of the unsaved dead-will also be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14).
@@TerryF-ht4qf the lake of fire is for purification, the sulfur is used to refined dross from gold, and "tormented" in Revelation 20:10 is "basanizo" in greek which is "the testing of metals by the touchstone". This has to do with the imagery of a metallurgist refining precious metal. For a parrallel check out Isaiah 1:24-26 to see how God deals with His enemies.
Very good! Believe the Bible teaches at death we sleep waiting the resurrection, when our lord Jesus returns he will set up as Kingdom believe in Israel will reign with him in that Thousand-Year Kingdom then will the gentiles have their Resurrection
Maybe where the saying, "rest in peace" came from. Because according to the New Testament some don't rest in peace.
What about after final judgment?
It's the same refining metaphor, before and after the final judgment.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 what about the traditional belief in hell fire that its eternal hell fire and those who cast into hell fire cannot come out in that eternity hell fire punish
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 my pastor ondo and my uncle edgar they said to us that once you are in the final judgment and cast into eternal hell fire you cannot get out there but suffer eternal torment or endless punishment in hell fire
@@vince.sarigumba That's not in the bible, that idea comes from Augustine who was clearly confused on the subject. Punishment even after the final judgment is still a refining metaphor. Christ's words, they are cast into "the furnace of fire", an Old Testament refining metaphor Isaiah 48:10, Deuteronomy 4:20, Proverbs 17:3. I did make that point in this presentation, but maybe not with the clarity it deserved.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 I hear a baptist preacher who believe and preach that only few people will go to heaven and that the majority of people will go to hell fire to be tormented in eternal hell fire or endless punishment or eternity torment hell fire and Its Very Sad to me because they believe that kind of idea that the second death or the lake of fire is endless torment or eternity hell fire.
At the end of Gregory of nyssa life become infernalist believe eternal punishment in his last days, in his belief of judas and in psalms 58 :10 because of judas sins and his purgatorial punishment will extend into infenity the case of judas iscariot and similar siners.
You'd have to find that for me, I've never heard that. Gregory of Nyssa believe even the Devil would be restored eventually.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 eclectic orthodoxy website.the end of the last writtings of gregory of nyssa at the end of his life he become an infernalist eternal torment believer because of his belief about judas iscariot who commit a grave sin that its better for judas iscariot not to be born because the punishment for the purpose of purgation for judas and similar sinner will extend into infenity and i also discover that gregory believe that judas and similar sinner like him they cannot be save and the purgatorial punishment of judas iscariot extend into infenity. I dont know if this infenity is eternity or not. And also he comments the book of psalms 58:10
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 sir many are mocking and laughing at me because I Believe that hell fire lake of fire Will Come to An End, I Believe in Universal Salvation and many are mocking and laughing at me because they believe in everlasting punishment hell fire and they believe in endless torment or everlasting hell fire eternity hell fire they believe and they mock and laugh at me Because I Believe in Universal Reconciliation.
when you can't justify your views with actual scripture you can always find some "church father" to justify them. thankfully I don't rely on St. Augustine for inspired literature.
If you would watch any of his other videos on the subject you would know your accusation that he has no scripture to justify it is false
I dont know if gregory of nyssa is actualy believe eternity hell fire torment all i know is he believe judas and similar sinner like him there punishment in the purpose of purgation extend into infenity and also he comments the verse of psalms 58:10 about those who are in heaven and in hell fire
I've never seen the reference, but even if he did change his mind in his old age it's still not in scripture.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 the second death or lake of fire hell fire has been interpreted by many as endless torment or eternity hell fire torment
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 i dont know if he believe in endless torment , Saint Gregory of Nyssa He Believed In Universal Salvation and we dont know if the indefinite period or infenity he talks about is for an age and Has An End because most of his writtings is Universalism
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 the majority of christians and pastors they believe and they preach that the hell fire is endless torment or lake of fire second death is endless torment or eternity hell fire or everlasting punishment or eternal hell fire this is believe and preach by many christians and pastors and they also believe that we can forfiet and lose salvation and end in hell fire if we go on sinning and habitual sinning and keep sinning disobedience and sin they preach and believe that we can forfiet and lose salvation by that sinning live in sinning.
Gregory of nyssa stop believing universal salvation because in his last writtings he believe in judas iscariot and similar sinner there punishment in the purpose of Purgation will extend into infenity
In some of your other videos you were pushing the "soul sleep" view. This video pushes moreso my view of the souls of the dead being in a realm of the dead conscious and undergoing correction as they wait out the resurrections. I rejoice in this improvement I'm seeing since soul sleep is another doctrine of devils.
Of course, the soul sleep view comes from the Old Testament. But we see the purgatorial view in the New Testament, which is likely related to the resurrection of Christ. Christ went to preach the Gospel to the prisoners of death after he rose from the dead.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 that's because the old testament solomon wrote some stuff that could be mistaken. I think it's called hyperbole. The dead know nothing for example is hyperbole. Their corpse knows nothing. Their ghost of course knows much. He meant their corpse. We can't say the Old Testament contradicts the New. They have to be harmonized.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 Christ never preached to human souls as the "prisoners of death"? The verses 1 Peter 3:19 and Jude 1:6-1:9 suggest he spoke to the demonic Spirits of Noah's times which created the Naphil-Giborrim (genesis 6:1-4) which are still held in "chains" in a conscious wake state and are waiting for their punishment in the Lake of fire (Revelation 14:11).
Paul in contrast, clearly uses language of slumber and sleep in 1 Corinthians 15:18 and 1 thessalonians 4:14. Alone the suggestion by some that the "Old testament had it wrong" on soul sleep does not match Paul's stance on that (2 Timothy 3:16).
@@artbyrobot1yes, Lazarus parable is pre death/Resurrection. Also, He unlocked hades and led captivity captive, hence why the souls are in heaven in Revelation. Jonah is praying from Sheol. The SDA teach the soul can't exist without the body, but you can see with the boy that hit his head and Rachel's death their souls departing and returning.
The dead know nothing "under the sun" is the whole context.... so, not hyperbole per say, but definitely regarding their corpse.
Agree, doctrine of devil. But man o man is it gaining traction.
@@artbyrobot1The dead know nothing is true. Once you die and go to Hell, you will know nothing of what is happening on earth. The " dead" are sinners,unbelievers. The ones who rest, are alive in Christ. They are born again believers. They have a new spirit from God, love God with all their hearts, soul,mind and strength, obey and do his will on earth. These called saints, believers, Christians will go to Heaven!
Grace be with you
The story of the rich man and Lazarus you describe is not biblical but damnable. Here is why. Some might be convinced to be true and they will end up in hell on account of you. They will say what is the used to stop sinning if I'm still going to make it to heaven anyway? Sir, there is no mercy after you die mercy is offered while you are still alive on earth therefore no purgatory. The wage of sin is death.
Imagine poor Lazarus lived a life of complete poverty and suffering miserably and died righteously and the rich man lived a life of wealth, pleasure, and sin and died in sin and you think Jesus will accept him in heaven? What a lie from the pit of hell. Where is God's justice? Repent or you will likewise perish and end in hell yourself.
When I studied the early Greek church fathers in the 2nd century, what alarmed me most was not only did they not teach the doctrine of endless punishment, they don't even seem to know about such a concept. They believed in thorough punishment, to the last penny, and for the ultimate good of the sinner, not endless punishment. Hence I always teach repentance from sin and giving your life to Christ.
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 It really doesn't matter what the early church fathers said: what does the Bible say.
Matthew 25:31-36 says, "Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed. . . And these will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life.” Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement no rest day or night makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence.
@@MB777-qr2xvcheck out the original greek, his point is that the church fathers knew the scriptures, yet had never heard of endless punishment?
@@MB777-qr2xv I agree we need to lean on scripture. But you might want to ask why those reading the original manuscripts in their native language understood these passages so differently? Study it yourself there are a good number of Greek/English lexicons you can avail yourself of at archive (org). The older lexicons seem to be more reliable, but you need to at least learn the Greek alphabet to look these words up. They assume you already know a little Greek. All these scholars know this.
No
The Church has always taught that there are only 4 Last Things (God Himself NOT being a "thing"): Death. Judgement. Heaven. Hell.
The first two take place for each individual once. The second two endure forever.
There is NO purgatory in the list. Yet Church teaching has also always stipulated the existence of purgatory. A puzzling situation, i admit...
Love your videos. Have to disagree on this one though. The soul dies (ezek 18:4). The dead are unconscious (eccl 9: 5,10). If something survives death, then they are alive. God told Adam he would dies and return to the dust.
This is true, the Old Testament teaches soul sleep. What changed that is the resurrection of Christ! He went and woke-up the prisoners of death to tell them the Good News! 1 Peter 4:6
"For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit."
@@thetotalvictoryofchrist9838 Ahh ok I see what you're saying. I lean toward those spirits in prison being the fallen angels in Tartarus from the flood. I think the context bears that out. Of course, we believe that God will rwconcile those demons and even Satan, so it makes sense. Thanks for the response.
At death Spirit goes back to God the body with this soul sleep in the ground till the resurrection
@@keithferrante6915 Please share the scripture that mentions this "soul sleep". The spirit is simply the life force returning to God, the person goes into God's memory awaiting a future ressurection. Jesus likened death to sleep, the whole person sleeps in death, as the example of Lazarus shows. The teaching of an immortal sould goes back to ancient pagandom, Egypt, Babylon, Greece...
@@simplifiedlife8607 ....You, as well as this man who owns this channel......need to learn the difference between
"soul" and "spirit" .
There is no purgatory
Well argued point!
@@stephengorman1025 can you tell where it is in the Bible?
@@stephengorman1025 Hebrews 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment”
@@russcollins8998 Phillipians 2v9-11, Rom 11v32-36, Colossians 1v15-20, Rom 5v12-21, 1Tim2v3-4, 2Pet 3v9, 1Cor 15, Lamentations 3 to start with and the hope of Apokatastasis is throughout Isaiah.
Yes there is judgement, scripture is clear about that but it is the nature of that judgement and the aim of that judgement that we need to consider
God said, 'Let us make Mankind in our image', judgement and punishment (kolasis not timoria - restorative not retributive) is part of that process and in, through anf for Christ ut is finished. Grace and Peace.
Before I watch this video (now 10 months old) I already know purgatory is not biblical.
If you die as an unbeliever, you go to hell. If you are a believer but have no faith, you go to hell. If you have faith but think it's ok to go right on sinning your whole life because Jesus paid the price for it, you're going to hell. You will stay there until the great white throne judgement, where you will stand before the Lord. In his perfect mercy he may give people one last chance somehow, we don't know this for sure or if you just get chucked into oblivion because you've been in hell for a thousand years. We don't know.
What I do know is that people have been taking the concept of having gone to hell and calling it purgatory. I don't know the exact reason they did this, but perhaps it's because 'purgatory' sounds less permanent and the "church" offered "intercession" FOR A FEE. Hell gets destroyed along with heaven and Earth on the day of judgement, then a NEW Heaven and NEW Earth is created, but no hell. Those that would still deserve hell get pitched into oblivion, outside all God's creation, which is the void....oblivion....nothing.
I know people keep quoting "the lake of fire". That's what the bible says, yes, and that was taken from what Jesus said about Gehenna. Gehenna was the trash pit for Jerusalem, and it was constantly burning. It's not because it was burning that it was related to hell and the destination after the final judgement, it's because it's a TRASH PIT. What do you do with refuse but toss it in the trash pit? God "throwing out the garbage" does not mean he intends to torture those who get tossed there eternally. It's going to be worse than that, so much so that torture would seem like bliss in comparison.
When you reject God, you turn your face from him. When he turns his face from you, that means he's ejecting you from his creation, which is EVERYTHING. Now, hell was a creation of God. After the judgement you wont get even THAT. Now here's the implications of being ejected from God's creation into the void, or oblivion:
- There is no SPACE there. It's nothing, not even emptiness. Most can't even conceive of this concept, but it's the total absence of all God created.
- There is no time. At all. Time is a construct God created because in our world, in Heaven, and even in hell there is cause and effect. No time means you are there (nowhere) in the same state you were when you entered it for eternity. Nothing changes, there is no cause and effect, therefore you can't even have a new thought such as a diversionary daydream or fantasy. Just the realization that you have arrived 'there' and will spend eternity 'there' without God.
- No senses of touch, sight, smell, hearing. There is nothing to touch there. Nothing to smell there. Nothing to see there. Nothing to hear there. Nothing nothing nothing is outside God's creation. Period.
- You will not have the Lord in your presence. Anywhere, for eternity. You will not even 'sense' the Lord as you can today, as mildly as you might be able to or not. You will not feel the Holy Spirit within you, because he will not be within you. There is nobody in that nothing but you, and nothing else.
No torture by little red devils poking you with pitchforks or roasting you over a fire of burning sulfur. Just the realization that you are there eternally. That's it. You will only realize that, and probably why you are there at the same time, knowing it will never end.
God is not a merciless, torturous prison keeper. He will not make sure you suffer endless proactive torment for eternity. He did not want that you happen to you, but you, as the recipient of this end, insisted on denying, rejecting the Lord, so this is the result. The garbage heap, the Gehenna, of eternity.
You will not even be able to "fade away into nothing" to escape this eternal fate. That would require time, and where the void of oblivion outside God's creation is, there is no time. You are eternal, so you will spend that moment dying for eternity.
THIS is what happens to the wicked, evil, and rebellious, and this is why God does not wish to lose even one of his creations. Unfortunately, he will lose a lot of them. Most of them probably. Knowing this grieves him makes me feel bad, but it also leads me to believe he has plans that extend beyond this, and we cannot comprehend them. Ultimately there may be salvation some time some where for the damned ones, I don't know. But remember, God is perfect in everything, including in his mercy, and we cannot comprehend his mind.
God's plan, which he knew from end to beginning before it happened, includes our salvation. It's our complete story that he not only began but ended as well, from a place in eternity that only God can comprehend. For anyone to say that they know all of God's plan is to believe they know his mind, and that is impossible for us in our current state. It may be impossible eternally. We do not know.
I did not intend to write this all out again, darnit. I got on a roll and let things just go. It happens every so often. There is much more to it than this even, so much more. Just read your bibles and strive toward Jesus Christ and you wont have to worry about any of this anyway. That's my advice to anyone reading....
Next time I recommend you watch a presentation before you debunk it.
Baloney. You are receiving people into believing they can get a second chance. Who are you to question God. Read what Jesus said about Hell. I don't care what the"church fathers" said!
Lol ,baloney? It's spelled bologna, all things fullfilled
@@JG-xw5rs It's still baloney.
@@jamesgore3846 you are
If you deny that God will eventually save all, you are left with two logical possibilities.
A. It is God's will for us to deceive people into becoming universalists.[Which implies that God wants people to be damned] So who are YOU to question God's will?
B. It is against God's will to deceive people into becoming universalists but He is powerless to stop us.
Both seem pretty absurd to me, extreme calvinists may have no qualms about saying that God simply uses heretics to accoplish a desire to damn people, but they often want to have their cake and eat it too. The fact is, either God wants people to be damned, which means that He probably aint interested in washing His hands of His responsibility in it. Or a person can go the arminian route and say that we are decieving people against god's desires but poor ol god just can't do anything to thwart our false teaching[arminianism insinuates or even openly claims that God is quite limited in His abilities].
I guess it makes sense for arminians to fear "false teachers", because they believe that we can truly thwart God's desires[which logically implies that He is extremely limited in His abilities]. It makes no sense for calvinists to put all the responsibility on us, I doubt that the god that calvinism describes would even want to wash his hands of the responsibility. A god who would damn people for his "glory" is not going to go through the trouble of justifying himself not going to be embarrssed about it. Such a god would simply say "You don't agree with my will? What are you going to do about it, punk!?" :) So
"So then why should universalist care about false teaching?"
We do not concede and do not fear that false teachers will overcome God's desire to save all. Many/most of us do believe that God has given us power to make choices within certain limits and that these choices can affect our lives for better or worse. False teaching that is in opposition to important teachings is a "danger" to people's flourishing, but not an eternal danger. We should not tremble at the spread of false teaching, we should scoff at it and maybe attempt to talk some sense into people if they are not totally given over to vanity, but we do so with the confident assurance that nothing can thwart God's desires from being fulfilled. Sin or to spread false teaching is craziness that we face consequences for, but it would be absolutely ridiculous to suppose that God would allow the madness of sin and false teaching to overcome His will/desire.
NO!!!!
No