Getting the Best From: Ilford PAN F+ Pt 2 N+ Development
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- Опубликовано: 17 янв 2022
- Have you ever been out taking photographs but the light is dull and boring? I know I have and today I want to show you a way to make those photographs shine!
In this video I show lifting the highlights by up to 2 stops, useful for those dull days. This is the zone system in action.
PAN F+ is a great film for the Zone System and with Pyrocat HD and semi-stand development (EMA) it excels!
John
www.pictorialplanet.com
Great follow up video and some great advice on how to achieve N+ development with pyrocat hd.
Amazing detail from 35mm whilst preserving full scale tonality in the print.
No doubt many hours spent calibrating the time/developer concentration and agitation to get the superb result.
I will give PanF 120 a go in pyrocat hd and see if it rivals 4x5!
Thanks for the inspiration and enticement to try a new way of working -stand development!
An excellent explanation of how to use push development to get that 5 stop contract on a 3 stop contract day.
Thank you! Note though that it's not push development but expansion and contraction, quite different.
Your videos are always meat and potatoes! Thanks for doing these, John!
Ha!
Hi John, yet another helpful video to help you better understand how to process black and white negatives, as only a suitably developed negative can be the basis for a good, if not outstanding, image. Your special ability to explain difficult issues in an understandable way makes your channel valuable, both for beginners and for advanced users.
Thank you Erwin. Feedback like this is very appreciated.
Exactly this
I'm definitely interested in seeing the difference between N+2 development compared to adding 2 grades of paper contrast. Great series
Thanks for breaking this down in an easily understandable manner.
Cheers Jesse!
Now it's time to buy your book! Very well done!
Thank you!
This is fantastic content John, loving the series! Thanks a lot for sharing! All the best!
Thanks Hugo!
This was a wonderful presentation. Again. :) The only thing I would add for completeness sake would be a third print. One printed from normally developed negative at a higher grade to try and match the highlight and shadow values of the one printed from N+2. This would show how much can be "recovered" in printing and what the drawbacks are.
Thank you very much for this great class, really usefull. Now I have a clear idea of the N+ dev and it's use!
Cheers^^
Cheers Jacopo!
It's so great that you keep breaking down this info into digestible chunks for us, and as someone else commented your way of imparting information is very approachable. PanF seems a very flexible film when handled deftly, it's a shame more people aren't aware of this, the film seems to have a bit of a reputation as a diva film stock. Speaking of diva film stocks I'd love to hear your thoughts on ferrania's p30. Definitely rated about two stops over its true speed (at least in old style developers) by the manufacturer but absolutely mind blowing when used correctly IMHO.
As always, wishing you well.
Thanks for your comment Dav! Ferrania p30 sounds a fascinating film. Unfortunately, for us retired folk, it's not something we can afford to buy yet. Hopefully, as book sales come in, I'll be able to test some for the channel. It would be fun to compare it to PAN F perhaps?
@@PictorialPlanet yes its certainly not a cheap film, even among the generally high prices of analog photography. I hope you sell a lot of books! I'm due to grab a copy myself. All the best with your coming videos!
Thank you for the video!
It would be very interesting if you also printed the low contrast (i.e.the normally developed) negativ with a higher contrast filter and compare it with the print based on the N+2-negativ.
Hi John, and thank you for another fine video. I must admit I've resisted Steve Sherman's teaching on EMA in the past, thinking it all a bit over the top. When you asked if I intended using EMA for the current roll of Pan F+ I have, I wasn't sure; I wanted to see what you found in further videos, particularly with the high brightness gate post situation in Part 1. So I think you've re-awakened interest in me for this topic and I feel I'll have to delve into Steve's writings to see if I've missed something. Thank you again, you're educating us and stimulating us to think more about what we do.
Thanks Barry. Next week I'm starting to look at some Crawley developers that match PAN F well.
Thank you for taking the trouble to test this. For PanF i would be afraid when increasing the time and increasing the concentration of the developer that the lights would be too black in the negatives.
But your negatives look great…
Cheers S D!
Ps, thanks for the info, much appreciated. Regards
My pleasure!
Thanks for another video and appreciate the explanation concerning N plus developing. Would the 30percent rule extend across other developers such as hc110 or beutlers?
Hi P Y. Yes, it works as a foundation for testing with most developers.
Hi John Thankyou for another great video. I haven’t seen another demonstration about n+ development done like this, so it’s great to see the difference. Something I noticed on the n+2 print, it appeared from the video that the shadow areas started to block up more?? Is that the case? And If so is that something that you can expect when you extend the development of negatives? Thanks again John
Hi Geoff. Looking at the photographs I see the shadow detail is well maintained in the N+ print.I think I printed it very slightly darker than the N print. I noticed how the grass in front of the shed looks almost like there's sunshine in the N+ print which is a nice effect, with it having been such a dull day. Of course, there's lots more contrast but it's kept under control by the semi-stand development. All in all it's a nice result from this demonstration. Theoreticaly, as one extends development the shadows have more time to develop thus raising the film iso slightly. I believe this is the reason I get full box speed from PAN F+ with extended development.
Thank you for your wonderful presentations, John, and for your fabulous book, which I have just discovered and am hugely enjoying. One question: would you use the 30% rule for development with Ilford agitation, or developing in a rotary processor, or would you adjust the contrast by some other means?
Thanks, Chris
I've used the 30% rule for many years but never with rotary processing so I can't vouch for that. For hand processing with regular developers it's a rough estimate that gets you in the ballpark for most devs. It was first revealed to me by Gene Nocon in his good book "Photographic Printing".
Hi John. Brilliant tips by the way, best thing ever! my wife buying your book for me for xmas. Improving my photography and darkroom antics, ten fold and saving money!!. I use the old favorites, Pan f, Hp5 and fp4. I like to n+1n+2 when shooting low light landscapes to increase contrast, generally with my go to developers Microphen and perceptol, I find that hp5 and panf love this extra boost but tend to find fp4 is a bit of a wild stallion. The question is ,I use Rodinal mostly for stand dev and have never used it at the standard dilution 1;50 or 1-25. My question is, if i was to add n+1or n+2 what dilution is suited for this extra boost. Hope I explained it ok? Regards
I would use 1+50 and increase development time by about 1.4 times per stop. Is there a reason though that you'd use Rodinal rather than Microphen which is much better at N+?
I guess it would be a money saving process. If I could get similar results using rodinal. Sounds like Ill stick with my ilford devs.👍
As ever, an excellent video, John. I wondered if you've had any experience with N+ development when using 120 HP5? I'm assuming there'll be an increase in grain which could possibly be tamed through reduced agitation?
Thanks for you comment Robert. HP5 works pretty well with this technique and the 30% rule is close. The development time is longer so try 20% to 30% longer N. When you're happy with your N time adjust for N+. Pyrocat is pretty good with grain so it won't be a problem, especially with medium format.
@@PictorialPlanet Thank you, John.
Hi John, thanks for your informative video. Very often if I’m out photographing a flat scene, I want to include detail in the sky, If the sky was included in your shed scene, I wonder how you would tackle that scenario. Many thanks Edward
Hi Edward, thanks for you comment. It's always nice to have an engaged group of likeminded folk following the channel. Your question is very good and I think it deserves a video! Excellent!!
@@PictorialPlanet Thanks John. I am really looking forward to that video. It’s a problem I have considered many times.
I am working on a new photo project right now and decided to use Pan F+ for it so these videos have been extremely helpful. Right now, I only have access to 510 pyro which you mentioned in the previous video also offers similar results. Im wondering if I should change the dilution of the developer when doing n+ development like you do with pyrocat HD or do I just need to extend the development time?
Just extend the time with 510, Alexander.
You, my friend are a very good teacher.
How long do you think Pan F can last in the camera before needing to be developed?
Thanks 🙏 I don't leave it too long, a month or so seems ok.
After 30 years in the darkroom and a 10 year gap I've just bought myself a Leitz V35 enlarger and am keen to get started again. Your series of videos is so useful it's untrue. Thank you.
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I understood that with extended development Zone 3 will be lifted too and therefore under-exposing the film by half a stop would compensate with an N+2. Do you agree, or think this is unnecessary ? ATB
I think the lift in zone 3, through extended development, is small and pretty insignificant. If anything it just lifts the shadows a tad which is not a bad thing. Why not try with and without and see which you like?
@@PictorialPlanet Thanks. You've definitely made PanF+ more attractive. I've got a stock of 20 rolls of 120 with no prior desire to use it. I'm also two batches into 510 Pyro, so 1:250 is almost free for future use.
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I'm geared up for rotary development, including a Jobo 3010 for 10 sheets of 5x4, so if you've any smart suggestions for continuous development, that would be great. 🙂🙂
PANF+ is a beautiful film and works pretty well in 510.
I don't do rotary processing so can't help there I'm afraid.
Ps when n+1and n+2 i generally use 1+3 dilutions to give the extra time in the developers.
Nice comment, Jonathan. I agree that the longer time in the diluted dev will raise the shadows more. Good tip.
This was very interesting but what do you do if the rest of the pictures on your roll of film *do not* require the N+ development? Will increasing the developing time (30% + 30%) affect the other pictures negatively? 🤔
Yes, it affects all the shots developed so you'd target this technique where appropriate. Some people think you can't use the zone system with 35mm but that's just not true. In other videos on my channel I talk about reasons you might use bulk loaded film, loaded in short strips, so you can use zone system development. I also have a video on using long (24 or 36 exposure cassettes) and cutting the film to enable zone system development like this. Learning to do this N+ and N- development, even with 35mm film takes your results to the next level as you fine tune your results to your photographs.
@@PictorialPlanet Thank you so much. Bulk loading shorter amounts of film to make a shorter roll sounds like a great idea. I often prefer to shoot 120 for this very reason. Thank you again. I have learned so much from what I have watched on your channel.
Thanks, A! Bulk loading changed everything for me when it came to getting the best results. I carry multiple cassettes with short 10 frame strips loaded. I never thought it's the same length as my 120 films!
Does your 30% rule also go for a N- development as well. So a 6 minute (N) development would go to 4 mins at N-1?
Yes, as a guide line 6 minutes becomes 4 mins 15 seconds but this is always best tested as different developers will react differently.
A very informative presentation, but do those rules apply to non-pyro developers?
These methods are for all types of development and are not specific to pyro developers. This is developing 101.
@@PictorialPlanet Thank-you. I was thinking specifically about the 30% rule. Most texts will recommend 15%, but maybe this isn't a worthwhile change.
30% is a good approximation to N+1 stop and will give you a place to start testing from. I've found it works well for my testing. It comes from Gene Nocon, inventor of the F-stop printer, who published it as a guide in his book Photographic Printing. I think he used a D76 type developer but not sure. Steve Sherman also came to a similar conclusion when testing a pyro developer so the approximation is good for MQ and pyro. I don't know where you have read the 15% but that's only going to give you half a stop.
@@PictorialPlanet Oh, thank-you. Yes, I've seen a video interview of Gene Nocon. He's paradoxically better known in Great Britain than here. I was about to try adjusting HC-110 for HP-5 (too thin) and for FP-4 (too dense) with the standard development times. A 15% change would likely have been a waste of time, so you're saving me wasted effort.
Hi John I'm new to home development could you share specific data about the developers used in this video and video pt1? thank you
These videos (pt1 and pt2) used Pyrocat HD developer. I have another video showing how to make it. ruclips.net/video/oVaxF3lQRsU/видео.html
Please forgive me if these questions sound simplistic, or even silly because I am a beginner at developing films. My questions are 1. Does the 30% rule apply to N-2 development as well? and 2. Does the 30% rule apply to all makes and speeds of film or does the 30% rule just apply to Pan F+?
1. Yes. It's an approximation so one should do testing (as in my FX55 series) but it works. One thing with n- development. Don't develop less than 50% on normal (N) time. This is because your shadows develop up to that time. After half the normal development time they are complete.
2. I can't say, hand on heart, that this is true for all films. It's probably close but testing your films will show. Play with it. I have a video showing how to use 35mm film for testing (by cutting it from your camera in the dark).
Thank you so much, your help is very much appreciated!!
This recipe only for PanF+?
Yes, but it gives you the basis for your own experimentation for your own film. For medium and high speed films try 30% longer.
Have you ever developed Ilford Pan F using Rodinol stand development?
Check out my Rodinal video series, Dave, for stand ideas and yes, Rodinal + PanF + Stand = nice negatives. However, Pyrocat beats it.
@@PictorialPlanet pyrocat. Hmmmmm
Never used pyro... Would I treat it like Rodinol?
See my Getting the Best from PanF part 1. Amazing!
Maybe I missed something, I assumed you are pushing to get more contrast. I get the N+2 development part, but shouldn't you also rate/shoot the film as if its ISO +2 stops higher? I mean, Pan F+ is ISO 50, so you shoot this as if it's ISO 200 (underexposing it), and then develop N+2? Or is this just only overdeveloping without the under exposure?
This isn't pushing the film, it's expanding. This is zone system work, quite different. I have other videos where I explain this some more or you could read about the zone system and how to expand and contract contrast.