14:16 if you have the Feed the Mind when you play Ever Vigilant, it can be played off the Ever Vigilant as well. Ever Vigilant unlike Geared Up is just "asset", so you can save an action and a resource during the loop. Can also use Knowledge is Power technically to save an extra resource but... It's important because unlike as demonstrated this makes the loop action and resource positive instead of neutral (or rather, +0.5a/r). Which means once you're deep enough you can attempt to recover from a failed Feed the Mind using some of your regular draw events as you probably have some to help you actually get the nonsense running. It's also optional to play Soothing Melody as you can just kill off the Laboratory Assistant with reshuffle horror since played off Ever Vigilant it nets cards. Relevant because Hallowed Mirror while good does put a bunch of cards into your deck you have to draw on the way to setting up the loop *and* makes the deck require an extra Relic Hunter it could cut. All this is relevant because 16:05 the probability is technically more complicated than that. It's above my weight class, but in 13 draws there's a ~52.4% chance you've crit failed at least once in an 18 token bag. ~16.1% chance that it was actually more than once for what that matters. Is this important? Not that much, no. As you mentioned, these decks aren't actually that fun. They're *novel*, but they're not fun. Worse, they're extremely not fun if you're not playing alone, as someone has to watch you play solitaire and obsolete their presence at the table. Infinites are varying degrees of okay in a competitive game as you sat down with the expectation that your opponent would do anything allowed in the rules to win and you're there to stop them. But in a co-op game you're semi-obligated to assist someone at the expense of your own fun if their goal is to go infinite if it's the best thing for the team to do.
There's a more niche/ difficult combo you can do with the rogues with passable access to seeker/ guardian cards (you can use versatile in a pinch) Friends in low places deck manipulation => Get inspiring presence/ perception/ justify the means/ momentum to the top of your deck. Double double written in the stars to get all of them into your discard, then start using trigger man with burglary. Because written in the stars commits those 4 cards from your discard, they are in the "committed" state when perception draws you a card, so they don't get shuffled back into your deck. The horror heal from inspiring presence lets trigger man infinitely soak horror, and you can continue paying for trigger man/ net gain resources off of burglary. Momentum + justify the means means as long as you're at shroud 3 or less, you always automatically pass. (You can always wait there till you manage to written in the stars another set of those two skills, which lets you continue the card draw cycle at shroud 6 or less locations) From there, you can just have any fast cards/ skills to do anything. (Using the fast option on friends in low places lets you fast play cards that you shuffle back into your deck so you can take your pick of which traits to add onto the combo)
One ruling question that might be very obvious: the cards you commit to the feed the mind's test don't get resuffled into your deck..? I used to see it that way, similar as how instants work in MTG, but at some point i changed my mind... So what is correct?
Cards committed and events don't enter the discard pile until after everything has been resolved, so they don't reshuffle into the deck. With the Feed The Mind combo, they aren't being reshuffled into the deck. You're reshuffling your deck again with the next feed the mind to draw them.
I am wondering if you think there should be a rules change to invalidate future infinite combos from appearing. Something that seems simple to me and would only hurt infinite combos and degenerate seekers is to increase the horror from reshuffling by 1 for every time you've reshuffled.
I wouldn't want something like that, but I would definitely like to see something that stops this. Limiting deck cycling to once per turn is an easy one, as is slapping "Limit once per turn" on a lot of the problematic cards.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
14:16 if you have the Feed the Mind when you play Ever Vigilant, it can be played off the Ever Vigilant as well. Ever Vigilant unlike Geared Up is just "asset", so you can save an action and a resource during the loop. Can also use Knowledge is Power technically to save an extra resource but...
It's important because unlike as demonstrated this makes the loop action and resource positive instead of neutral (or rather, +0.5a/r). Which means once you're deep enough you can attempt to recover from a failed Feed the Mind using some of your regular draw events as you probably have some to help you actually get the nonsense running.
It's also optional to play Soothing Melody as you can just kill off the Laboratory Assistant with reshuffle horror since played off Ever Vigilant it nets cards. Relevant because Hallowed Mirror while good does put a bunch of cards into your deck you have to draw on the way to setting up the loop *and* makes the deck require an extra Relic Hunter it could cut.
All this is relevant because 16:05 the probability is technically more complicated than that. It's above my weight class, but in 13 draws there's a ~52.4% chance you've crit failed at least once in an 18 token bag. ~16.1% chance that it was actually more than once for what that matters.
Is this important? Not that much, no. As you mentioned, these decks aren't actually that fun. They're *novel*, but they're not fun. Worse, they're extremely not fun if you're not playing alone, as someone has to watch you play solitaire and obsolete their presence at the table. Infinites are varying degrees of okay in a competitive game as you sat down with the expectation that your opponent would do anything allowed in the rules to win and you're there to stop them. But in a co-op game you're semi-obligated to assist someone at the expense of your own fun if their goal is to go infinite if it's the best thing for the team to do.
The Joe Diamond combo is definitely a lot better than I was giving it credit for. I'm a goof and just forgot I could use a 3rd card on ever vigilant.
Fantastic video! Well edited, well paced, and well explained. Thanks for putting this together!
There's a more niche/ difficult combo you can do with the rogues with passable access to seeker/ guardian cards (you can use versatile in a pinch) Friends in low places deck manipulation => Get inspiring presence/ perception/ justify the means/ momentum to the top of your deck. Double double written in the stars to get all of them into your discard, then start using trigger man with burglary. Because written in the stars commits those 4 cards from your discard, they are in the "committed" state when perception draws you a card, so they don't get shuffled back into your deck. The horror heal from inspiring presence lets trigger man infinitely soak horror, and you can continue paying for trigger man/ net gain resources off of burglary. Momentum + justify the means means as long as you're at shroud 3 or less, you always automatically pass. (You can always wait there till you manage to written in the stars another set of those two skills, which lets you continue the card draw cycle at shroud 6 or less locations) From there, you can just have any fast cards/ skills to do anything. (Using the fast option on friends in low places lets you fast play cards that you shuffle back into your deck so you can take your pick of which traits to add onto the combo)
Another thing to mention about Joe Diamond's draw combos is that he can play 1 Fool Me Once to seal away his random basic weakness.
That's actually awesome and I didn't even realize that was a thing. Thank you for telling me that's a thing!
Or convince a friend to bring Ikiaq :D
One ruling question that might be very obvious: the cards you commit to the feed the mind's test don't get resuffled into your deck..? I used to see it that way, similar as how instants work in MTG, but at some point i changed my mind... So what is correct?
Ok the cards don't go to discard pile until ST.8
Cards committed and events don't enter the discard pile until after everything has been resolved, so they don't reshuffle into the deck. With the Feed The Mind combo, they aren't being reshuffled into the deck. You're reshuffling your deck again with the next feed the mind to draw them.
I am wondering if you think there should be a rules change to invalidate future infinite combos from appearing. Something that seems simple to me and would only hurt infinite combos and degenerate seekers is to increase the horror from reshuffling by 1 for every time you've reshuffled.
I wouldn't want something like that, but I would definitely like to see something that stops this. Limiting deck cycling to once per turn is an easy one, as is slapping "Limit once per turn" on a lot of the problematic cards.
One of the best ideas I heard was to draw 1 encounter card when your deck runs out, instead of taking 1 horror.