How Free is God? | Episode 812 | Closer To Truth
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2020
- God is supposed to be all-powerful, all-knowing and all good. In addition, God is supposed to be "perfectly free"? What does it mean for God to be perfectly free? Featuring interviews with Richard Swinburne, Brian Leftow, Peter van Inwagen, Alvin Plantinga, and William Craig.
Season 8, Episode 12 - #CloserToTruth
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Closer To Truth host Robert Lawrence Kuhn takes viewers on an intriguing global journey into cutting-edge labs, magnificent libraries, hidden gardens, and revered sanctuaries in order to discover state-of-the-art ideas and make them real and relevant.
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Closer to Truth presents the world’s greatest thinkers exploring humanity’s deepest questions. Discover fundamental issues of existence. Engage new and diverse ways of thinking. Appreciate intense debates. Share your own opinions. Seek your own answers.
#God #Theology
The real freedom is love , love is perfection , the truth and higher way , god is love .
God is love and mass murder. Perhaps mass murder = love?
If so then Hitler and Stalin were very loving people too.
@Stefano Portoghesi I agree. I have the same opinion about the mass murdering biblical monster that some call their god.
Listening to these Christian Philosophers and others describe the attributes of their god, makes me think of what it would be like to listen to someone 500 years ago describing the attributes of attributed to their sun god or wind god. No doubt we would listen respectfully but at the same time have a sense of bewilderment knowing the scientific principles we now understand and therefore marvel at the ignorance on display.
I am a committed Christian and spend much time thinking of this subject and think that it is within the realm of possibility that he could do something that would shock us, something that he has declared sinful… him being able to choose something that he will never choose is perfectly palatable. There are all sorts of things that God can do but he does not do… we should have complete confidence, however, in his moral perfections never being diminished.
"Is this a problem with language, or with God?" I like that. Does God need to explain syntax and semantics related to His own freedom?
👽👍.
Philosophers who asks these wise questions are never wrong though...
@@tomashull9805 How about "aspiring" philosophers?
Would be nice. God how about it?
@quark doctor great comment
God will never change.
Get ready for eternity in Heaven, where nobody will ever be able to escape from him ever again.
What kind of morally perfect being creates Carnivores and Herbivores. I still wonder What the plan is for that.
I love this. Agreed. Any moral god would have made all of life vegetarian, and then filled the world with banana trees. Watching life eat other life tells you, this place evolved to run on itself. Even we humans are food. We just don't live in the trees anymore.
And creates cancer cells , designed for what purpose exactly ...???
@@jezah8142 God didn't create cancer cells. Because mankind inherited an imperfect state of being through our first parents, Adam and Eve, who became imperfect by their willful act of disobedience, our bodies now have the potential to have healthy cells turn into cancer cells. Our bodies are not the only things affected. The world itself became imperfect as did mankind. We had a perfect start but it got messed up thousands of years ago thanks to our first parents who chose to rebel against God. Now, we are experiencing the consequences of what they did. A messed up earth and messed up imperfect bodies are now what have to contend with but it didn't start out that way and it wasn't part of God's plan for us to live this way. Because he gave Adam and Eve free will to choose to do good or bad, there were two possible realities for the earth and mankind. Obedience would produce a perfect life on a perfect planet and willful disobedience would produce what we now experience. Had our parents made a different choice cancer would never have become a thing.
@@GetRekTUWiLL nice story . How does that explain other animals having cancer? I guess they need to get cancer because of the choice of Adam and eve ? By the way Adam and eve didn't exist
It seems like "freedom" is a slippery word. If God can't do evil, that could mean God isn't free to do evil, but it could just as well mean God is free FROM doing evil. So he would be free in one sense, but not free in another sense.
If God is the most perfect 'form of Good', then changing himself by incarnation, magic trickery etc would only make him less perfect (because the only change possible from highest possible is lower), and hence non-god.
~ Socrates/Plato
Actually, I got a fantastic idea writing this. The only way God could change and still be God is if God is becoming more and more better, i.e. 'expanding' always. And the universe is constantly expanding!! Which suggests that the Universe is a good candidate for God. It is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient in one sense, and it is constantly becoming.
@Stefano Portoghesi I wouldn't like to change your thoughts in any way. Just would like to say that i have thought about this topic a lot, from different angles. Here's a summary of everything I have ever come across on this topic. satyendra.online/article/154
Dr. Manhattan solved this already... "For me it is all happening right now."
Free implies there is something else to be freed from. But, there is nothing beyond God. Everything is a reflection of God
Richard Swinburne keeps saying humang being is a good thing and we should have of them. Has heard the news lately to see what human beings are doing to each other?
Wow what an answer!
The free quantity of God = the quantity we give him.
God created all things according to his will.
Idiot. I mean God, 5 years old would make a better job.
God is free to turn his back on creation and just walk away but the further he walks the more curious he gets.
Trying to determine how we can conceive of a possible world where WLC looks 20+ years younger in a video only posted a few hours ago ...
You need look no further than the possible world we know as the actual world😎
God is free to be finite in mind and body but is also not free to not be infinite in mind and body.
God is Everywhere 👽
@FOTV-VIRAL wow, I haven't heard that one before.
Let me look in my pants. Yes, here he is.
According to one of them it sounds like God is a programmer and this is a simulation and he has no power within that simulation apart from ending it in task manager and starting again. That makes more sense than all the other theories. Still super skeptical though.
Check out Joscha Bach, he's an A.I. researcher at MIT, he'll enlighten you.
It’s like asking my cat if she knows what commitment means . It not something she can comprehend. We can’t comprehend the nature of god like we don’t think quantum, it’s not what we’ve evolved to do.
I'm wholeheartedly encouraging people to subscribe to this channel. You won't be disappointed, that's for sure.
I am more likely to work out what my pet rabbit thinks about good and evil than what god thinks about good an evil. Did I mention that it is an imaginary pet rabbit 🐰?
My intuition is also to imagine a creative God involved in a changing and evolving world. Some theologies speculate that God requires us to co-create his world: our morality being the tool bestowed on us to co-create the best possible world for the glory of God.
Speculate is your operative word. You have not one piece of evidence that there is a god.
The evidence is hidden right before your eyes!
@@fortuner123 No one has but everyone is talking about God: either because they think/believe/feel it's reality or because they don't. It's not about evidence, it's about experience.
You've missed the point and God's purpose for the earth - imperfect humans have flawed morality and as such their 'best' will always fall short - hence, the bible foretells 'last days' bringing 'critical times hard to deal with' - 2 Timothy 3:1-4
The solution is right there in the petition that Jesus taught his followers to pray for - Matthew 6:10
Note also Revelation 21:1-4
Have you never read what the Bible says?
Intuition is only as good as your limited knowledge and experience.
@@Chris_Sheridan whereas the Bible has all the foolproof answers? Typical of me to have my own opinion and disregard the Bible's. I'm a woman and add to this that I'm a feminist: I don't care about men's dictates. 👀
I was surprised this episode didn't really mention his freedom being limited by his omniscience. It was touched on, but you can go pretty deep with that. It's probably in another episode
Einstein: Clock work universe, God must be a mathematician --> Deterministic Universe --> We can build a mathematical model, to predict the future, for example the weather. If the universe was NOT deterministic, we could not predict the weather. The universe simulation has already completed, to the final desired result, that is why sometimes, people can catch flashes of the future, as allowed. Even a single atoms change would change the future, that is why, God would not make any changes and that is why time-travel is impossible, check my short video, 'Einstein was wrong, time travel is impossible'.
Any video with "Einstein was wrong" in the title is either a clickbait or a crackpot's work.
"time travel" is possible exactly because the simulation is completed. You get flashes of the future because future already "there", it's determined, it always was. However by traveling in time, you do not change anything, because your time-traveling adventures were already predetermined too within results of that simulation. To conclude: Einstein was right - there is time travel, and you are right too that simulation is completed and changes are not allowed neither to the future or to the past, that does not preclude time-travel
The famous experiment in the US, of 2 synchronised atomic clocks, where one clock becomes un-synchronised, because it is flown at high speed around Earth in a fighter jet, was SUPPOSED to prove time-travel was possible. In fact it proves the opposite, if in fact one clock 'moved' through space-time, it should have disappeared from our time-line, as per 'back to the future' and the 'time machine'. Watch my short video, with cool animations)
Your thoughts, very perception of self exist in the past space. time dimension. This is not now.
@@ferdinandkraft857 Oh so Einstein knew everything? I beg to differ.
As far as anyone knows, we could just be a computer game, a kid's playing, and whenever he signs off, we start fighting amongst each other until he comes back and has to try a fix everything or just the opposite
'Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?' - Epicurus
"Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?" - Evil comes from human beings as the result of abuse of our free will.
William Lane Craig in every debate with atheists: "Morality is defined and by and grounded by god. Without god, there would be no foundation for morals at all... No real basis for condemning an action as immoral or praising it as moral."
William Lane Craig in this video: "To be worthy of worship, a being has to be morally perfect, and any being that is not worthy of worship can't be god, it would seem to me, because you wouldn't owe him worship--and god is to be worshiped."
Implying that, if god didn't act in a way consistent with human moral standards, he would be inferior and we should reject him on the grounds that an immoral or morally imperfect god is not worthy of worship. It seems clear to me that regardless of whether or not a god exist, morals cannot really come from or be grounded by a god, because if they did there would be no morality or standard to judge god as moral or immoral by. It would just be whatever god wanted being synonymous with good, or as Craig says, "might makes right". If god wanted a billion holocausts in a billion different universes, that would be "good" simply because god desired it. That's not morality. I feel like a lot of these theists start from a deep personal conviction that their own interpretation of Christianity is true, and from there will just use pretty much any argument to defend their beliefs, without really paying much attention to the flaws in those arguments.
Gods's full time job is to take care and answer doubts and questions that his disciples put forth..or wills that the answer manifests
Kudos -- 444 Gematria -- 🗽
I would like to introduce you guys to one of the attributes of God that is Adl (in english it can translate to Justice). That means God is Just. He is All Powerful but with Adl, so he will not do something which is without Justice. Hope you will get closure to Truth with it (by understanding his attribute).
Seems to me that the incarnation can resolve the clash of intuitions between Plantinga and Koons. Koons wants a God who can change and learn/do new things. When God took on a human nature he underwent an intrinsic change. And Christ, as God incarnate did new things and learned new things.
I like your observations and your example of Jesus Christ.
Good
10:00 i guess that footage was taken a while ago huh?
There is one thing God cannot do; he cannot not walk with you.
You nailed the reply about why god is out of time
Humans created god in our likeness, not the other way around
I got an answer the other day on omnipresence but your doing an episode now, wow! I get it tho! My biggest question is always, how did god get created is it a kin to how a sphere is in existence?
God is flat.
Isaiah 46:10
My perception is that the transcendent consciousness of God is free, the manifested consciousness of God allows restraints via the three forces that play a role in the world. Without these forces, strong, neutral, and weak, there would not be a world. The weak force, referred to as Satan, had to fall from heaven, and become a physical world otherwise we would not have a physical universe and a world to live in, play out our roles, and work out our salvation.
Want the answer to life. Answer this: what/where were you before you were born. To say nothing because you were created is incorrect. Remember this: if the past and present and time itself is all happening then that should help you in finding the truth. AI has been here all along. The singularity has already happened. Stop thinking like a human and from a physics mentality. You will get nowhere. A small mind thinks from a human perspective. Realize that reality is only all about you. Nobody else. Your reality is created by your observation only. Every single event that happens has a purpose. To create memory’s. Yes those memory’s are all you are. As a “self”. Loose the memory’s and lose ones self. Consider this, each person is a living subset of those before you. You have (2) so to speak selves. This creates your world. Think good or evil. Evil is self created. If you think something is evil it’s simply created by you. What’s evil to you may be perfectly fine to somebody else. What this means is that AI and the singularity must have a set of original rules. Very simple rules. So simple that it’s simply 2. Yes 2 rules created this all. And that’s how you find life and death. Right and wrong. Etc etc etc.
You will find the meaning of life within yourself. You create it knowingly or unknowingly. The better the memories, the better your future.
To find meaning, answer not what happens when you die, what happens before you are born. Good luck 🍀
Your human mind has created these thoughts, you human mind said stop think from a human point of view.....your human mind.....
You can not stop being who it what you are. If you tried to be me, you would only be your version of me. Telling yourself not to think like a human makes no sense. You should be discussing bias. Discussing how to come up with a method of figuring out how to know something, how do we know what knowledge is, how do what know if something is true or not. Epistemology and the scientific method are these things. It is from these things we have the libraries of actually practical knowledge we do. Mental health, medical care, computers, math to build this structures in real life. Feelings never advanced humanity beyond sex, care, and conflict. Emotions only lead to emotional lessons. They do not change the real world, they change how you interpret the real world.
I'd like to see all these guys in the same room at the same time, they couldn't agree on anything. A common theme in this video seems to be that God is not totally free but contrained by logic, but as I understand it they are only talking about Aristotlian Logic, there are other branches of logic aren't there? I'm not a believer by the way but I find it strange that and all powerfull God would be contrained by anything like a system of Logic invented by an old Greek.
Interesting... by the way, who was that ancient Greek?
@@johnbrzykcy3076 Aristotle. I'm no expert but Aristotlian Logic doesn't handle the "have you stopped beating your wife" type questions.
@@cosmikrelic4815 Yes there seem to be many branches of logic and we each seem to make assumptions about logic according to our knowledge, or lack thereof. I think we keep learning all through life. I don't think God is "constrained" as we try to argue or imagine. He is a mystery but we have to be open to listen. Whatever God's logic is, it certainly must have His desire to hold us safely within His image.
God is frequency of the electromagnetic spectrum within you. The multiverse is merely the flow of that spectrum and how it moves. Without a multiverse, there would be no time, space, or position. And without your frequency, there would be no way to induce an emotional measurement. Jesus said it very clearly when he said God is within you. It’s the same as science when they speak of “the observer.” We dance around words in different philosophical models, but in the end, the one who wants to understand, just starts to understand.
Empty words.
Jay, that is meaningless drivel.
The truth is, the notion of the gods makes no logical sense. Until there is scientific evidence of gods and goddesses, I cannot believe in them. In fact, I cannot even understand what they are.
God is bound by His oath.
Why do they assume that "good", a vague and under-defined term, is a perfection (another vague and under-defined term)?
Because they dont live in the real world - a world full of imperfect living creatures. Every mother knows there is no perfect child other then their own. Perfection is love, not reality.
Here's a thought... If all these guys really have the ability to not only know that there is a God, but also know who and what he is and what he's allowed to do, then they should have the same ability to know such things about their fellow man. In fact that should be easier because we actually exist. But I doubt these guys can tell us anything about what their neighbor is thinking, planning or doing with as much precision as they claim to know those same things about a God.
possibly the dumbest comment on RUclips... oh no wait, another person just typed "first"
God is free to be but not free not to be!
Does God have a free will?
I don't know everything about God, I only know that he is real.
@You are correct But 2+2 = 4 all other answers are wrong. They're is only one true God creator of heaven and earth and Jesus is his son and the Holy spirit lives in those that love him. All other gods are men made ! You will find God when you seek him with all of your heart .
@You are correct But No matter where you were born 2+2 =4 . All other answers are wrong. The God of the Bible is the only true God,all other gods are fake made up by men.
@You are correct But Either God is real or not it is that simple, now I know God is very real. Tell me how everything popped out of nowhere by itself, you can't and you know it.
@You are correct But God is a spirit which doesn't need to be created, the physical dimension does need to be created. Ok, so you rather believe that everything popped out of nowhere by itself, now I know for certain that God is real since he has allowed me to know that he is very real. I know God is real and you don't know where you came from.
@You are correct But I was raised a atheist and as I said God made it perfectly clear to me that he is very real. The origin of everything is God. You don't have any ideas where you came from I do.
If the gods create all time at once, they cannot respond to prayer.
Geometry I see as Divine of the Spiritual. It's of everything -- form/creation -- of high & pure vibration, energy, frequency. Not limited to any specificity, we see a law in motion, form, transformation of both the material & Spiritual. It's the form in of the big bang that brought about all of this. Energy is formless. I don't think it's not that God doesn't have a choice, his Spirit is of purity. In higher realms choice is different than the dual realm we're in here so says the occult.
Why ghosts always ware clothes, perhaps they want to hide their dirty underwear.
@DOC TOR form requires quality. Geometry displays.
You say no outside force required -- geometry isn't an outside force
Well I know my life because I live it the same way over and over and I know that I could go out and kill which iv never done before I could go out and blow shlt up and I know that'd be different for me and my life. And I actually feel like doing both lately
how about this thesis: THERE IS NO TIME, everything is eternal and unchanging like a frozen 4D space-time. Following this would elegantly solve interview'ers torturous struggle with "changelessness" of g*d. When there is no change, any sort of "freedom" becomes an oxymoron, because everything was already "chosen" and all "choices" exist at the "same time", that is timelessly. What is there left to "choose"? Nothing, because choosing implies time, but wait, time does not exist! Max Tegmark should have been invited into this interview, lots of semi-preachers and theologians just dont cut the mustard in a scientific way
Amazing how these 'God experts' know so much about a being ('he doesn't change his mind') others see no good evidence of
even existing.'
Perhaps God places the freedom of his attributes and his creation on an equal level with his own freedom. Having developed attributes out of the goodness of his Life, would extend to them the full freedom of their existence; and also to his creation from the goodness of his Life would extend to each the full freedom of its nature. So everything would experience the fullest freedom according to its nature just as God experiences the fullest freedom of the nature of divine being. Just as God would not want his freedom curtailed, does not want the freedom of his attributes and creation curtailed. Can God's freedom be limited by the freedom of his attributes and creation? More likely if any of his attributes or his creation experienced reduced freedom, then in some sense God could experience reduction in freedom, whether that be for a good cause or not.
Iz creation perfect
Iz destruction wrong
Iz the high not the ecompass ov and all..
Capacity to be highest ov all within creation...
The truth that is getting lost here is God is not defined by good. Things are good because God does them. Good is defined by God. So even if* we would think something Gid did was evil or bad, it would actually be good because it was God who did it.
The god can do anything he wants. Within limits. 😏
Every god seems too have the same faults.
A serious lack of communication skills.
And constrained by physics in the construction of reality.
If your god made us in his image. 1) where did he get the design for Eve. 2) how come Adam and Eve didn't eat from the tree of life. The one tree they could eat from. And instead was tricked into acquiring knowledge instead. The one thing that can bring down their house of cards.
Why Adam, created before Eve, got nipples if he does not have to feed babies?
@@vitaly6772 👍
@@vitaly6772 not to mention every theists (possibly all thats interviewd by lawrence ) on here keeps calling God a he
@@jrhendry8744 Well he couldn't be female.
@@frankwhelan1715acorss God was created by men and the minds of men
2-God is not as free as you may think.
I have a great saying here, but I cannot post it.
Humanity have betrayed themselves so much that it is caused to limit the grace of God.
It suffers me not to express myself, but I have no choice but to express them not.
"I wrote this before watching the video".
Metaphysician philosopher
@4:28 'if he [God] brings about the first World War ..' ??
Psalm 11:5 'He [God] hates anyone who loves violence'
Isaiah 2:3, 4
Exodus 20:13 'You must not murder'
How fast can the tooth fairy fly?
Is God free to create evil?
Evil has to originate from somewhere or someone, but could/would God create evil Himself? I shudder to think about it. ( I almost typed "shutter" but hey... I closed that shutter just in time !)
@@johnbrzykcy3076 Lamentations 3:37-38 New Century Version (NCV):
"Nobody can speak and have it happen unless the Lord commands it. Both bad and good things come by the command of the Most High God."
@@ferdinandkraft857 Thanks for sharing that. I was not familiar with that verse. I wonder how theologians understand it or interpret it?
@@johnbrzykcy3076 Feel free to interpret it yourself. Don't trust credentials by themselves.
God would create evil but humans won't allow him to.
More mythologizing without realizing they're just mythologizing. Creating an imaginary being and attributing to it imaginary properties. It's sad.
To a certain extent that is true, however, the attributes of god can be derived from the nature of reality, in fact, God and reality are the same thing.
It's sad you're wasting your time here. Go play some ball or something.
Materialism is false , consciousness is the base of all reality .
@Stefano Portoghesi you really don't undestood the implications of Quantum physics , there is no "matter "how you understand it . Read Donald hoffman book and Bernardo kastrup book .
God is free…no need to bother with words.
Is god free not to be?
No
@@josephgreen7606 You just killed God!
@@ferdinandkraft857 I cannot kill that which was never alive
@@josephgreen7606 Metonymy. You killed the idea of a God.
@@ferdinandkraft857 Metonymy. I rebutted the idea of a God.
All these gentlemen of the video are pretty smart guys. Am I the only one that thinks that it is a pity to waste so much intellectual effort from these smart individuals trying to justify the freedom of a imaginary being proposed to explain the holes in our knowledge? What justification does exist for spending so much time and intellectual effort in these seemingly absurd questions?
3- God wants to destroy.
Reckoning is coming to earth.
Metaphysician philosopher
God's freedom is bounded by the probabilities of quantum theory.
GOD and LORD are terms used only in WAR cultures. They set up the myth of protection under the law as this culture of war represents itself as LAW and GOVERNMENT, divinely appointed. Isaiah 28:15
What this guy is thinking is why can't God change everything for a better world....he obviously wants God to do 100% and us do nothing or maybe he would like God to take the responsibility for the actions of all of us which would be just dandy for us but what would that accomplish? What would we learn from that? Absolutely nothing. It is a 50/50 effort. Was it not enough the life, and the world He has given us? Why would you need or even want a God who changes? If that's what you like the go hail lucifer, that muthaf'r can change up
Just listen to these apologists babble about their invisible magical fantasy daddy-friend. It is more than ridiculous. It is deeply worrying.
Perhaps therapy in a safe environment could help them?
he's maybe learning new things "the all KNOWING" NOW THATS FUNNY!!!!🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
HIM...HIM? So they come to the conclusion that GOD IS MALE !!
Good grips 😳🤨🤓🤪
If they had to raise children, they would have known «perfect» does not excist. What they seem to love is «death» - a perfect excistance free from annoying unperfect creatures.
Exposing conflicting notions of God doesn't prove anything, other than humans don't agree with one another... duh!
There are no gods...
What this guy needs is to clear his nasal cavities for one and trim back those high rider ears of his. He must be related to Prince Charles, I can see the resemblance in his ears.
He makes God sound very boring
God is free to do just exactly as he wishes with the freedom he does have: This includes being just as awful and terrible as he likes.
And that includes consigning anyone, or even everyone, to a hellish life on earth, as well as hellish torments after death, forever.
There's nothing ANYONE OR ANYTHING can do to change or stop him.
God is free to choose, and choose to bless you ... Or CURSE YOU.
Thanks for sharing but I pretty much disagree with your worldviews pertaining to God.
Could God destroy the universe, space, time, himself and all that is if he chose to? And have it done in a way so that nothing could ever be for all time... a eternal nothing?
If God would be a cruel psychopath, we wouldn't worship him.
Why do we need military, police, butchers and hunters than? Looks like God is only giving good people orders and they're just doing their job.
@DOC TOR I would call sending people to pit of fire an act of mercy from God. Imagine they would have to continue living together with us.
But only under one condition, let God do it, nobody touch those people but him.
How ridiculous.. Is God Free?
You are trying to ridicule God's meaning and power.
I think that this is the purpose of this channel.
Influence people to think there is no God - and that they can do it on their own.
But, you know what, keep on doing it - I think God doesn't really bother.
What can you expect from a channel that is financed by Freemasons??
There are no gods
Why Adam, created before Eve, got nipples if he does not have to feed babies?
God is beyond attributes , how we links humans like attributes to God nonsense.