Aside from martyrdom FOR THE FAITH as a man, father, and husband I will always resist evil and protect my family by the grace of God. A mans duty. Always has been and always will be.
The best defense you have and always will have is prayer and trust in God. Any earthly terror/earthly “weapon” against it will pass away. God gave you life and “your”family in the first place. Will you be tricked by the devil; thinking that you should defend the temporary life of “your” wife & children by murder? You are not God & you cannot truly protect “yourself, your wife, nor your children” from evil. Evil had its day & it is only Christ who shattered the gates of death & has offered us a way into The Kingdom of Heaven.
@@Marina_IC_XC_NIKA Why saints did it then? Why Saint Cyril praises christian soldiers? Why Saint Alexander Nevsky fought? Why bishops blessed greek revolutionaries? Sorry, but to frame this issue as merely one of pride or lack of faith seems to forget the fact that the harm done to ones family is done against fellow brothers in Christ, against fellow men. Obviously killing is evil and should be avoided, but to not act to prevent the harm and to merely let evildoers do whatever they want with one's children is beyond negligent.
If any man lets his family, other loved ones or even a stranger suffer at the hands of any other earthly being, that man is evil and a coward. When it comes to self defense it is your human right to defend your life against the being that is trying to hurt or kill you, but it remains a choice. When other lives are at stake, it is no longer a choice but rather an obligation.
@@evkoum It is saintly to allow your wife to be raped and your children to be killed? What about Saint Cyril Equal to the Apostles, that praised the service of the christian soldiers during the muslim invasions?
@@evkoum But how it is saintly to let your family be harmed by a stranger? What about Saint Cyril Equal to the Apostles that praised christian soldiers?
@@patrickbarnes9874 The video seems concerned with religious persecution, but what people criticize in the comments is precisely that our main concern isn't persecution but strangers and enemies coming to do harm to our families.
As a single individual or monastic I agree with Father Heers and the Elder.But as a father or husband, you should do whatever you need to (in self defence) to protect your family. Why give up your life only so another can torture or kill your family? We are here to protect and preserve innocent life…God wouldn’t have given strength to the Hebrews when they warred if it wasn’t for a greater good. Lastly, I understand that Christ’s incarnation changed things for humanity but the Church wouldn’t existed if there weren’t courageous men and women who fought for it.
Exactly. If that is the case, you are basically encouraging the most corrupt to thrive. How can the kingdom of God thrive if everything is given to those who have no regard for those trying to live for his word?
And about Self Defense for one Self. As a Woman should I just Let men rape me and do nothing to stop it ? This Sounds actually evil. Defending myself, would also defend my love ones from Doing things to the criminal
"Although one is not supposed to kill, the killing of the enemy in time of war is both a lawful and praiseworthy thing. This is why we consider individuals who have distinguished themselves in war as being worthy of great honors, and indeed public monuments are set up to celebrate their achievements. It is evident, therefore, that at one particular time, and under one set of circumstances, an act is not permissible, but when time and circumstances are right, it is both allowed and condoned" -- St. Athanasius, Letter to Amun. @Orthodox Ethos, one can find Saints are not unanimous on this topic of corporate pacifism. Father, Canons and Holy Tradition dictate those who've killed in war are not to commune, for a period of up to 7yrs. How many Saints, including St. Paisios, were soldiers at some point in their life?
St. Paisios is not a good example because he did not want to be a soldier, and he intentionally did not even use a gun and would run into battle without arms and would grab wounded soldiers and bring them back to safety. I agree with you in general though.
As a wife and mother I cannot fathom what kind of Christian husband and father would stand there and do nothing if an intruder was trying to rape and muder myself and the children.
Interesting discussion. I completely agree that the way of sanctity is in 'not resisting evil' But i do wonder about all the Orthodox armies and warriors who defended Christendom for so many centuries, including St Demetrius of the Don and the schema monks Peresvet and Oslyabya? 🙏☦️
“If two commandments were written in one law and given to men for fulfilling, which man would be a better follower of the law: The one who fulfilled one commandment or the one who fulfilled both?’ The Saracens replied: “Undoubtedly, he who fulfills both commandments.” St. Cyril continued: “Christ our God commands us to pray to God for those who persecute us and even do good to them, but He also said to us, ‘Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends’ (John 15:13). That is why we bear the insults that our enemies cast at us individually and why we pray to God for them. However, as a society, we defend one another and lay down our lives, so that the enemy would not enslave our brethren, would not enslave their souls with their bodies, and would not destroy them in both body and soul.” (From the Prologue of Ochrid)
There are many Christians (even priests from the Soviet Union) who served in the military and also protected their wives. A man that protects his family is not "living by the sword". He is protecting the family that God gave him. If you watch anybody else hurt your family and do nothing, as a man, you are evil. Period. We lay down our lives. Thats fine. We are commanded to. We are NOT commanded to watch innocents suffer and die. Especially the family we are charged with. Just like Christ died for His Church. We would die for our family. And just like Christ, he died so that we may live. We also would die so they too would live. Just like God fought for His people, Israel, in the OT and charged them to fight as they were God's People, our family is our chosen people under our covenant of marriage.
This is true, many Christians in military, like Saint George, Saint Demetrios, Emperor Constantine the Great, and as you say in more recent times many as well.
@@vladgor4099 Why pray for them to be victorious if what they are doing is anti-christian by nature? Do I need to remind you how Francis was condemned for doing the exact same thing in reference to homosexuals? There's something that just doesn't add up here.
@@siruristtheturtle1289 I agree. I think there’s something that just doesn’t add up here from both arguments. The only one i know for a fact, crystal clear, is if you get put on your knees and told convert or die, you die. That’s all. All other situations i’m very mixed on
@@vladgor4099 >is if you get put on your knees and told convert or die, you die. That's the example of the saints regarding martyrdom for the faith, yes. I think we all agree on this point. >All other situations i’m very mixed on The tragedy is that the mixed situations are sadly the most common and practical: There is very little martyrdom to be found in the West, but tons of christians currently serving in the military or in the police force. May God have mercy on us and guide us to wisdom.
I am struggling with this idea of not using violence! I can't see myself not fighting for my family if an intruder enters my home! Pray for me brothers and sisters ☦️ICXC
defend your family, in war time will you watch the assailant force themselves upon your wife, mother and daughter, and kill your father and your son? Unless god has taken them, you should defend them, protect them.
For me, I think about Luke 22:36 “He said to them, ‘But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.’” Some argue the sword isn't literal but it must be as Jesus implies to get one, you may need to sell your cloak first - this tells me it must be a literal sword. If the disciples are shocked by this command, they recover swiftly. In fact, they assure Jesus that they already have two swords in their possession (Luke 22:38).
So make them call your bluff? That's a terrible stance from a practical standpoint. If you're not willing to use the tool, you're more of a danger to yourself and others even having it.
@@Wyocaster You believe Jesus wanted to appear as ruffians for a prophecy? I hope you'll reconsider. I can't imagine any scenario where Jesus would want to be in costume and appear to be anything other than what He is.
@@Wyocaster Understood. But let's look at the metaphor theory. If it was a metaphor, why would Jesus say they may have to sell their cloak to buy a sword? Then consider 2 verses later that the disciples assured Jesus that not only did they already have a sword, they had 2 in their possession. Still think it's a metaphor?
From the Orthodox Study Bible: "The sword (v. 36) is not to be understood literally (compare vv. 49-51), but refers to the living word of God in the battle against sin (Eph. 6:17; Heb. 4:12). St. Ambrose adds an additional meaning: that giving up one's garment and buying a sword refers to surrendering the body to the sword of martyrdom. Because the disciples were thinking of swords literally, Jesus abruptly ends the discussion with the words, or better translated, ** (see. Deuteronomy 3:26; Mark 14:41)." Mark 14:41 41 Then He came the third time and said to them, *“Are you still sleeping and resting? It is enough!* The hour has come; behold, the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. Also read the rest of Luke 22 which refutes the use of the sword. Luke 22:38 38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, *“It is enough.”* Luke 22:49-51 49 When those around Him saw what was going to happen, they said to Him, *“Lord, shall we strike with the sword?”* 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear. 51 *But Jesus answered and said, “Permit even this.”* And He touched his ear and healed him.
So why did Jesus tell the disciples to sell their cloaks and buy swords before sending them out? Also Jesus never told St. Peter not to carry a sword, He only told him to put it away when St. Peter was interfering with Jesus' arrest and lopped off the ear of the servant. Does anyone really believe that Jesus didn't know St. Peter was carrying a blade until he drew it to fillet the aggressors?
I will protect my family and children against evil at the best of my ability. I don’t see how this is not Christian. I’m supposed to let evil murder my children? Very frustrating as I am not choosing to harm but am forced to. I disagree with the elder. Forgive me LORD
study the bible. the father has an interpretation, but our father in heaven is true. Jesus our Lord and God will express many things in the bible, he is the God of the OT as well as NT do not forget, He is Yhwh, He brought fire from the heavens to smite sodom and gomorah. do what the christ our lord and god has asked of us.
If someone breaks into my house, I will accept judgement to defend my family so that *my children* have an opportunity to repent in the future. There is no earthly homily that will convince me otherwise.
The historical record shows that armed resistance is a part of the human experience and the Christian experience. The use of force against evil as a form of resistance has numerous precedence....they are all concessions to the fallen world and even the thinking of the Evil One. However, the Church has not been consistent in the promulgation of its teaching regarding these matters. Do we tell our youth to avoid military service or forbid it? Have not even monastics taken up arms (albeit rarely) at various times? Do humans not have a fundamental right to protect their families? Are we to allow Evil to grow in our midst, AS WE HAVE, and then exonerate ourselves when things go completely out of control? We MUST resist evil, but how? That is the question. This resistance must be unrelenting and STRONG. It can take many forms indeed. Our adversary and his minions work day and night opposing the good. Read the headlines and watch the news. Can we honestly say that our passivity has not resulted in the loss of an entire generation and millions of souls? The CHURCH MUST TEACH ON THESE THINGS WITH COURAGE!!
It is so touchy to do so ahead of a needed time. The absolute worst situation is having zealots, youth, jumping, and giving the world a reason to respond. But, just a new book of martyrs is the only answer is idk...
For evil to flourish simply requires good men to do nothing. Pacifism goes against every fiber of my God given soul as a veteran and retired police officer. If those who "live by the sword" are to perish by it, then who wields it. For I don't bear a sword for nothing. Romans 13:4.
Well if something goes against your desire, doesnt mean its wrong, were called to put to death our passions, doesn't that include your love of violence/combat? Also we aren't saying to do nothing, and we are not alone. We have a God bigger than anything who crushed death under his feet at the cross. Whos coming back and will destroy evil with the Word. Restrain somebody, jump in front of a bullet, car, take a knife for somebody, help somebody flee, shelter them, provide for them, but kill somebody? I need more convincing personally
@@vladgor4099 It's not mere "desire". It is simply the way God made me. The great warrior-king David was "a man after God's own heart." I fully understand that the vast majority of people are not "wired" the way I am, but if you are not, don't tell me that I am wrong. I would lay down my life to save others.
@@NMemone That’s fine because IF the Lord leads me into marriage it will be with a faithful woman who understands that this world means nothing and that we have an everlasting inheritance waiting for us. God bless.
I’m medically retired army I went to prison after three armed home intruders broke into my home and held me and my pregnant wife at knife point on Nov 11 2018. I’d rather be tried by 9 than carried by 6 but what made my case more complex is that medical cannabis law in my state just went into effect at that time so I was guilty of possession so I’m at fault for that in my defense I was a advocate and did news interviews as a veterans advocate for medical legalization in Missouri and for industrial hemp. They never arrested the intruders they prosecutor tried to make them to be victims.
@@Streaker707 sorry to hear that. Surprised that it would happen in MO. It's one of the reasons I moved to Wyoming after retirement. Good solid non-leftist place where decent people are not treated like the scum that would break into a house.
@@keggor6998 Not innocent in the sense of sinless but there's a difference between the sins the average person makes and breaking into some one's house to kill them.
@@seanm8665 My comment was a bit extreme, and a stretch but we are talking about an extreme subject that has to do with people's lives, I probably should've said something else, and explained more, my comment is more based off of what the video conveyed to me, it seems that from the video a murderer's life, and soul are more valuable than someone who doesn't commit murder.
@@turtletoons1016 I understand what you’re saying and I agree with the sentiment that one should defend himself justly and righteously. I do not think that one should go to the ends of the earth to dispense justice and therefore judgement. Only God can truly judge. I do not agree with the man speaking in this video.
Our passions also allowed to be slain. In repentance. One follows the other. How long men have been warriors of the flesh and must now be warriors of the spirit! God help us all!
How this squares with the necessity to protect one's family as a father or in general as a man? I understand that violence and war are indeed evil, but have we not examples of saints across the ages that were not only soldiers, but praised in fact for defending the faithful? Saint Alexander Nevsky, for example, wasn't condemned but praised for defending the Russian from the depredations of the Teutons, and there is also this quote from Saint Cyril Equal to the Apostles that is very illustrative: "Christ is our God Who ordered us to pray for our offenders and to do good to them. He also said that no one of us can show greater love in life than he who gives his life for his friends (Jn. 15:3). That is why we generously endure offences caused us as private people. But in company we defend one another and give our lives in battle for our neighbours, so that you, having taken our fellows prisoners, could not imprison their souls together with their bodies by forcing them into renouncing their faith and into godless deeds. Our Christ-loving soldiers protect our Holy Church with arms in their hands. They safeguard the sovereign in whose sacred person they respect the image of the rule of the Heavenly King. They safeguard their land because with its fall the home authority will inevitably fall too and the evangelical faith will be shaken. These are precious pledges for which soldiers should fight to the last. And if they give their lives in battlefield, the Church will include them in the community of the holy martyrs and call them intercessors before God.”" The lesson is self-defense is harsh, and I accept that often is our pride and fear what drive us to unnecesary violence... But when the line of someone we love is on the line I am not sure if the same principle applies at al.
This is very hard to swallow and creates a lot of internal conflict for me. Part of a woman’s instinct in mate selection is not just providing food, water, shelter, etc, but providing protection for her and their future children. Why would a woman choose an Orthodox man, instead of an heterodox, atheist or muslim man? All these young men flocking to Orthodoxy are coming mainly because the heterodox and secular world tells them not to act like men and/or men are evil. And now the message to men is to stand down, and not protect their families, churches, communities and neighbors? Is my understanding correct? Sorry Father, this is very disturbing to me.
I think it's important to see the context in here which is speaking in particular to the anti-Christ. I recommend the book "On Resistance to Evil by Force" by Ivan Ilyin who was also an Orthodox Christian. In the book he offers various cases and nuances for different levels of violence. It's not as simple as simple as it seems. Orthodoxy is not a pacifist religion.
@@orthodoxphronesis Ilyin actually does make reference to Saints in his book. You didn't know that, just like I don't think you knew who Ilyin (spelled with one "L") was before reading this comment. Perhaps humble yourself and open your mind to what people smarter than you, such as Ilyin, have to say about the topic instead of rejecting it from the start. Also, Elder Athanasios isn't a canonized Saint, just like Ilyin isn't either (even if he was that wouldn't make him infallible, nor would it make those who aren't canonized worthless).
There is a certain justification in Orthodox Christians taking up arms. As St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite explains: “If once the barbarians and infidels should succeed in gaining the upper hand, neither piety will be left, since they disregard it and seek to establish their own wicked faith and bad belief, now sobriety and maintenance of honor, seeing that their victory would be followed by many instance of violation and ravishment of young women and of young men. (interpretation of canon 13)@@orthodoxphronesis
Basil has several things to say about violence and war in his diocese. It was a border territory of the empire, and his administration had known several incursions by barbarian forces. Canon 13 of the 92 considers war: Our fathers did not consider killings committed in the course of wars to be classifiable as murders at all, on the score, it seems to me, of allowing a pardon to men fighting in defense of sobriety and piety. Perhaps, though, it might be advisable to refuse them communion for three years, on the ground that their hands are not clean. The balance and sense of discretion is remarkable in this little comment, one that bears much weight in terms of Eastern Orthodox understandings of the morality of war.
Just as people do not enter a war in order to enjoy war, but in order to be saved from war, so we do not enter this world in order to enjoy this world, but in order to be saved from it. People go to was for the sake of something greater than war. So we also enter this temporal life for the sake of something greater: for eternal life. And as soldiers think with joy about returning home, so also Christians constantly remember the end of their lives and their return to their heavenly fatherland.” -St. Nikolai Velimirovich, Thoughts on Good and Evil
I have had this question for many years... after asking many Monks, Priests, a few Bishops any friends about what they thought about Self Defense... here is my conclusion: We have saints by themselves chopping wood in the forest, and were robbed. The saint threw his axe to the ground and allowed the thief to rob and beat him. We all agree that any Saint in our history has not taken another person's life to defend their own. There are many examples of Saints being able to defend themselves but they allowed evil to do as they wished. On the other hand, The best way to show love is to sacrifice your life for another person's. There is also virtue in self defense. For example, if someone was going to kill one of your friends, sacrificing your life to save theirs is the best way to show love. Raising a weapon makes you a target and takes the shooters attention off of everyone else and focusses it on the interceder. There is also the Maccabees revolt where they got tired of standing around waiting to be slaughtered. They began fighting back and were able to build the second temple. So after many years of thinking, researching, and asking Priests, Bishops, Monks and other Orthodox Christians... It's still a difficult question to answer. Right now, I rest here: When you are by yourself, you should not fight the enemy when they confront and apprehended you, but if you're not alone, it can be virtuous to stop the threat against others at the expense of yourself as a sacrifice to save their lives. We should then treat the shooter with respect and fight to save their life afterwards, unless they were from "Mozambique"... then pray for their souls. Thoughts?
This is the answer I got. It’s blessed to protect others who are in danger. If it’s just you, turn the other cheek, or at least do the least harm possible defending yourself, & get away. God is just; He will judge the situation fairly. You trust Him. Always stay close to God anyway!
@@thecourier9290 from the point that they decided to be a follower of Christ, most Saints do not end others lives... St. George, St. Theodore... St. Demetrios... all gave their lives to Christ and from that point on, they did not kill.
@@spartanastas Saint Nestor took the life of an anti-Christian gladiator with the blessing of Saint Demetrios, who had already been imprisoned for his faith.
This has been on my mind a lot lately. I no longer have any interest in the world since I've begun to see it for what it is. I hate violence and try to avoid it at all costs because my lack of empathy makes it very difficult to moderate. Now, I'm not wishing for my own death but if I'm given an opportunity to see Christ face to Face, I'm not going to squander it by letting this demon take control of me.
Isn't this pertaining to persecution for BEING A CHRISTIAN? But otherwise, shouldn't we be able to defend our loved ones? Who could stand by and see a child abused or a woman or elderly etc abused? Not me!
Why did Christ tell his disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword before their journey? Why is St. Demetrios venerated for helping Nestor defeat Lyaios in the stadium? Why do the psalms say that there is a time to kill. And also say praise the Lord who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle? God Bless elder Athanasios but maybe his opinion is not totally correct all the time for everybody?
These examples are about persecution for BEING A CHRISTIAN. What about situations that have nothing to do with belief but are life-or-death to innocents?
@@luisdaroczi8181 , This is stated by Jesus himself. He tells the Pharisees in John chapter 8 that he was the Angel of the Lord that met with Abraham in Genesis chapter 18. Guess where Jesus was going at the end of Genesis 18? To Sodom and Gomorrah. No. Obviously Jesus is not a pacifist and his judgment is fire and brimstone for the unrepentant.
Saint Demetrious, Saint George, King David, Abraham, Joshua. All these godly men have killed before in battle and in the line of duty. What is the difference with them? I know that David was barred from building the temple because he was a man of the sword (he lived a warriors life). This is a grey area and the speaker was not very clear. We men are called to defend the faith, our family and our mother country. The guerilla fighters who got the blessing before battles in the Greek Revolution of 1821 were many times led and blessed by Orthodox bishops and priests. I do not believe farmers and fishermen who happen to be called in the line of duty are living by the sword. We need more clarification.
Lord im a sinner , have mercy on me, people of god pray for me and my wife , we are in a cold whether and have no home to go. She has PTSD and need my care. Thank you in advance for your prayers 🙏
I take all teaching well, my question is not out of pride. But I must ask, as a husband and father, I am not to protect my family with up to lethal force? A husband and a father's duty has always been to protect their families in every way...at the end you say do everything we can and to not rush to do so, fine, but that's different from not doing it at all. If we retreat in our home to final line of defense and try everything we can to avoid it, and even then everything outside of lethal force, the answer is still "nope, let a random home breaker (as opposed to a devout persecutor of Christians) have their way with your family?
I've talked to my father about this. He told me as a husband and father it is my duty to protect my family. While I should do my best to end the situation peacefully, if you have to protect your family it's ok.
I think you're misunderstanding what is being stated, although I don't think it's your fault. The teaching is primarily about persecution, and there's much reference to ascetics. If someone persecutes YOU for your faith, do not try to match them. Do not try to fight fire with fire. However, you have an obligation to others, as you're a man in the world with a family. Your duty is to protect your family, but with due force. It might be that it's not possible for you to not use lethal force in the case of a home invasion at night. Whenever you find yourself in a situation requiring your intervention, immediately pray for God's help and do what you need to as to stop them. The goal is to prevent "loss" in any and all categories.
@@OrthobroLocal1 Denfense includes hitting back if necesaary but make every effort to NOT kill! Kind of what a Police Officer "should" be doing. Thats how i understand it.
@@shawnpatrick1877To kill someone is a sin… it’s pretty simple. If you kill the person and then in your pride begin to say “HE DESERVES IT! He was born evil! I’m good because I saved people, I’m a good person” that’s a dillusion and you should repent. If you’ve killed someone to save someone and then begin to beg God for forgivensss for having taken a life that’s different. This is like Orthodoxy (Christianity) 101…
@@popefunkopop6736 That sort of thinking is exactly why Pilate is mentioned by name in the creed: Passivity and absolving one's self of guilt solely because they aren't the ones doing the deed themselves. It can be argued that it had to have happen for the fulfilling of scripture, but even Jesus cursed Judas for his betrayal in "it would be better if they were never born."
@@popefunkopop6736all of us named after Saint George, a great warrior or Saint Dimitri Donskoi who killed probably around 100 thousand golden horde invaders, or Saint Olaf the Second who died in battle are named after evil men then?
I don't think I would be able to stand by and watch as my husband, mother, innocent children be harmed and not stop it. I suppose I will continue to struggle with it.
sacrificing one's life to protect the innocent is a virtueous act, much like how Christ sacrificed his life to save us. and i would say that many Orthodox, including clergy would agree with this.
I think if martyrdom is in the cards for you, you will know and be prepared for that. If you’re expected to take a life in defense(self, family, nation), you’ll also know what to do(unless you’re a coward and don’t). I’m curious if there is anything from the Saints that delineates between being martyred and being murdered senselessly(the context of the situation). I can’t help but think that God may send a criminal to cross paths with a virtuous and violent man, from time to time, to end the evil spree of the criminal who is past repentance. Ultimately, God will not put you in situations that He doesn’t want you in, nor that you can’t handle. People with a clear mind and soul will do the right thing. Idk. His will be done, not ours. Glory to God for all things.
I think I'll just vanquish all my enemies and let God be THEIR and MY judge on the Last Day. You Monks can be Martyrs if you choose to be. I don't choose to be. I will resist with force. I will pray for you Father, you pray for me.
I can't remember the author, but I have an Orthodox pamphlet somewhere about Christiianity and War that gives one point of view that when the soldiers asked of St. John the baptist what they must do hhe doesn't tell them to disarm but to not intimidate nor accuse falsely, be content with your wages. That he understood borders needed protecting. I also understand at the same time that there were those who didn't defend themselves. I forget the two Russian monastic Saints who did not defend against their brother, who came to conquer the territory. They stood there to be slain.
The Catholic stance on this is better. What are you going to do if someone attacks your wife? Just stand there and pray for her to go to Heaven or what, to me this is a bit delusional. Even defending yourself from, for instance a bully, is a right of yours and to defend your classmates or friends should be a duty. What a weird stance, don't defend yourself, you'll go to Heaven!
Fr John Whiteford wrote an excellent article about this topic with a very similar title to this video. It's extremely complicated and this video is correct in its opinion to always err on the side of Christ. Self preservation and personal insults or attacks are handled clearly by our Lord and his Saints. Protecting the innocent and "Righteous" use of violence to that end seems less clear to me. Christ himself said dying to protect others is a great glory (i don't recall the exact chapter and verse forgive me)
Father forgive me, I am but a layman, but I disagree strongly, with what you have stated and I think you have misunderstood the Elder. One should never engage with evil, let evil be and it will destroy itself, but when evil attacks you and your loved ones, you have to take a stand, if you have the oppurtunitiy to protect yourself and your neighbour from sin you most do it, if not you are accomplice in the evil action. Sometimes this means even that we have to take the life of a man or make war on a nation, but the intention is not to do harm on them, but to protect what is already good and holy amongst us. Its the same principle as why we have to make a stand against heretics and heresy, to defend and protect what is good and holy. We cannot generlize every situation and we should always look for the best of both ourself and our neighbour, but there are circumstances when this is not possible, when you can´t save your neighbour, but rather have to protect your lovedes ones from him. I hope you understand what I am trying to say
I joined the Church at Nativoty this last year but have been greatly struggling with this very idea since I began enquiring over a year ago. I had the intuition that what you are teaching is the right way, but it is very much counter to my prior (or rather current) mindset. Please pray for me, Father.
This is a discussion severely lacking nuance which will not I think help inquiry into Orthodoxy; it certainly has not helped me as a Catechumen. How did Constantine the Great take his Empire? Was that sinful? Should Constantinople have been surrendered wholly to the Ottomans when they came to sack the Queen of Cities? Should the White Army have lain down their arms without any fight? What about Saint Nestor? What of Saint Olaf? Saint George? Are they all in error? Should Christ have not defended the Adulterous Woman: do you think that if any of the accusers had dared to actually throw a stone, he would not have stopped it? What should we as Christians do when charged with defending the innocent? If we let ourselves perish without resistance, and as such those innocent are gravely harmed, have we even acted at all? That almost sounds grimly pharisaic (I did as was required of me even to no avail, oh well, I was barely a speedbump). There is much to be thought of in these matters that are not broaches by Father Heers, that I would like to know about. I will have to talk with my own priest when he is free.
Why did you include Jesus defending the adulterous woman. The discussion is on killing. Who did Jesus kill? Defend, help flee, provide and shelter, restrain attackers, jump in front of a car to save somebody, jump in front of a bullet, etc etc etc etc, but be on the other side of the glock blasting, im not sure, i havent seen a convincing argument beyond what we all want personally ( which is to be on the other side of the glock lol )
@@vladgor4099 You keep ignoring all the examples he brought up of saints that used force, from St Olaf to Nevsky and St George, St Constantine and multiple military campaigns blessed by orthodox bishops.
@@siruristtheturtle1289 Because that’s insignificant, i’m addressing the issue of him using Jesus as an example which is very wrong. He was implying Jesus killed somebody so i corrected it. We have one man as a perfect example, our God Jesus Christ. I hope you’d agree. When it comes to other saints, i do not know, i don’t know if they’re perfect and have no more desires and passions and temptations, i don’t know if they’re infallible ( clearly not since some popes corrected and even recanted other saints and popes words ) so just because they said or did something doesn’t mean it’s right. I’m learning on this, i’m just looking for a solid argument that says you can kill, because believe me i rather kill, it’s much easier ( not to protect myself, or when it comes to faith, i’m only talking in the odd event where it’s a random act of violence on your family, not over faith, do you kill or allow to be killed )
Thank you for this message brother. This has been on my heart for a while. Regardless of how impossible it might seem for us, it is possible for God to do all things. To kill another human to protect your family is to have fear of what can happen to them in this life. You who say you would take up the sword, why are you afraid? And if not afraid, why do you hate those who are yet ignorant in darkness that are slaves to death? If you do not hate or have fear, then what would cause you to think that it would be good for you to judge another human in this life when God is the only one who judges in this life and the next. Do you not think that if our Father wanted, He would end the life of that person that seeks to do harm to your children? Do you think that God couldnt turn that evil into eternal good for His glory? So what do you do “as a man”? You do all that you can, even unto death, to stop that other human from committing such grievous moral sin. Do all through the pure love of Jesus, abide in His love while you fight for that person that is killing you. Pray as you are dying for their salvation and freedom from their enslaver. Pray for the infinite strength and love of your family who might end up suffering. Search the scriptures and seek the love of God, not seeking what we want to see. Our flesh tells us to kill and hate, but the Lord God Jesus tells us to sacrifice and love. Dont listen to the enemy about what you “should do”, listen to God. Have the confidence and peace that sees beyond death.
"In this sign, you shall conquer" heard Constantine, becoming the elected to wipe the heathens before his army (also full of pagans, ironically) to eventually bring a new era to Europe.
i agree with fr heers on this topic i realize those with small children and wives would think of defense but please consider that defense is not killing so we have this in the example of the lives of the saints as Christ taught the apostles to do as well so this is the standard i will not judge anyone else who thinks in the moment to protect their family from horrendous crimes but just consider all the saints and what they endured for Christ
Xristos Anesti father. My question is What about the empire defending itself with force. We have so many saints that were soldiers. So many historical accounts of Constantinople being defended and prayers being given to the theotokos for the defense of the city. At what point do you defend yourself. Christ chasing away people from his father’s house. Your thoughts, God help ☦️
Fr Heers just kind of bleeps past in the last 3 minutes our responsibility to others. I'm next to a day care. Do I let a disgruntled parent end 30 kids and 5 teachers because they lost a custody dispute and became unhinged? As an American there is zero legal distance between myself and the ones Paul says "do not wield the sword in vain", and are here for establishing the order of God. If all things are ordained by Him, is my presence as one able to keep order not part of that matrix, and not something external to it? Unanswered questions that are very pertinent and not mere philosophical evasions.
The irony is that the right to bear arms isn’t about self defense on an individual level, but the defense of the nation against foreign and domestic enemies. This is a carry over from traditional martial culture where the king could call upon the people to serve in a military capacity. Similarly, there are still laws on the books in America that allow for the deputization of people, or defining of the militia as any able bodied man between the ages of say 15-45yrs of age. But, the obsession of self defense neglects the duties it entails. Even according to the ancient masters of war. Violence was only used for the benefit of others, and even for the benefit of the slain. Even Saints like St. John Chrysostom values warriors. Great discernment must be practiced. For majority of people, it is much safer to not use violence at all. There are Saints that can be studied concerning how to use violence like St. Samson, St. King David, St. King Josiah, St. Constantine, St. Justinian the Emperor, St. Alexander of Nevsky, and St. Michael the Archangel with many others. There is enough to justify Christian violence within the Church, but it doesn’t justify the modern approach to it. The stark difference is the perception of using violence to resist evil in the modern sense. Compared to using violence as a remedial action in the traditional sense. A warrior is often compared to a doctor. Where he cuts off the worst members in order to save the whole.
I would agree with this perspective, but the nuance you are bringing to this topic is not very present in Fr Heers explanation, resulting in the current confusion. The example of the military saints is simply ignored.
To be fair, this kind of “nuanced” position isn’t really present anywhere. Fr. Peter Heers and I attend the same monastery where I find essentially nobody even amongst over 50+ Fathers knows this stuff. But to be fair, Fr. Peter Heers did put “AN Orthodox Christian Analysis” and didn’t put “THE Orthodox Christian Analysis” lol. Autism x100.
@@ArizonaTengu Hahahaha, fair, even if a bit concerning. With so many christians in the armed forces one would think this topic would be a little more present or studied, specially when there is examples of both extreme "pacifism" but also great martial exploits within the orthodox church.
@siruristtheturtle1289 It’s probably an act of mercy from God. Many evils have been done in His name simply from the examples found in the Old Testament. American Puritans believed themselves to be the new Israel, and that led to concepts like manifest destiny that had entire nations of Indians experience genocide. Then of course the secular state of Israel who seek to genocide Palestinians. There’s enough information in the Church for people like myself to study, but much more could lead less cautious people into thinking Christianity is a conquering religion. Fun fact though, Christian warriors who die in battle defending the nation or empire are counted as martyrs.
@siruristtheturtle1289 Well…there is a difference between a soldier and a warrior. A soldier does his duty for wealth, fame, and women. A warrior does his duty because it’s the will of God. I know the words aren’t well understood nowadays, but there is a distinct difference in the two martial cultures. I personally haven’t found to much insightful knowledge from soldiers. They’ve almost always been from martial artists who practice on their own time and dime.
Wound but not kill is extremely difficult in a self defense and defense of others situation. Allowing the defenseless the possibility of being raped, tortured and /or murdered can be a result of Turning the other cheek. Would that make one responsible for the evil that befalls the defenseless since one did not defend due to this interpretation of this teaching??? I struggle with this reaction to evil. “ oh LORD help know the way where in I should Walk. “ Psalm 142/143 Christ is Risen ♾️☦️♾️
You rightly keyed in on one of his errors. "Resist without killing" or even "wound without killing' as Mr Heers tried to allude to (especially in his watery attempts at backpedaling in some responses) present a distinction without a real difference. The separation between "some force to stop or delay you" and "enough force to kill you" is only a matter of degree with points in the middle that injure or disfigure people. This is why police refer to their tazers, pepper spray, and batons etc. as "less lethal" and specifically not "non-lethal." Because people can and have been killed by their use. When does he propose that the Christian enters into sin by their resistance to evil in defense of the innocent? At 10% likelihood of causing death? At 51%? At 1%? His incoherence is exposed quickly upon examination. If he merely teaches that force should be proportional to the threat and not result in death if at all possible, then he has not stated anything insightful or noteworthy. Even the secular laws in the US that govern police use of force and civilian defense of self/others thankfully incorporate principals of proportionality and consideration for disparity of force. It's almost as if he believes that non-pacifism holds to some giddy attraction to the opportunity to "justifiably" kill someone. It is not at all the sentiment of Christians who affirm their duty to use force in some situations. Such an instance is regrettable and tragic and should be avoided as much as possible. It's clear that he didn't think his teaching through because it is easily shown to be internally incoherent (as so many morally relativistic teachings are).
Somewhere we heard that just as it is not suicide for a person to kill themselves as a last resort, rather than be sexually assaulted, then neither is it considered murder to defend the home or nation as a last resort. The servants of God built the wall around the city & temple while bearing arms in one hand & a tool in the other. But the order is escape if you can, evade if you cannot escape, & if all else fails, engage & protect the innocents. But yes, It is better to die than to kill if you are not responsible for anyone else's safety.
I strongly agree with your first two statements, but can you please tell me where did you hear that? I've been wanting to hear someone confirm this. Do you have any bible verses to support it?
We, as Christians, have an obligation to defend innocent life. Especially if we are to be fathers and husbands -- we have a duty before God to defend, even to the point of killing, if our wives or children are ever placed in mortal danger. To do any less would be an affront to God.
I think this teaching might be correct but it doesn’t sit very well with me. He says fight them, but men can die to a punch or a shove what are we to do? How is one able to fight off an attacker without killing him when the fight alone can kill him? I truly do not understand.
Yeah sorry this pacifist attitude does not make the world a better place. Allowing evil people to rob and murder is not some virtue. If someone is breaking into your house and you do not defend your family then you are a coward and the less than a man.
How about maiming an attacker as long as you don't kill him, and then help him afterward? Like causing a superficial wound that stops the attack and prevents him from attacking another person? This subject has been in my mind for a while.
When people have a family or anyone else they love or anyone else close to them, it is their duty to protect them. You can't decide they have to die just because you want to become a saint. That would be selfish. That would be evil. A father who wants his children to suffer and to die because he wants to become a saint is just an evil person full of bad pride. He does not have the right to decide for them. In 1821 Mount Athos monks protected families and some of them died fighting.
10s of millions, allot Christian, killed not physically resisting communism, when it was a minority. Are we to do nothing different? I know this is an incredibly touchy subject. But it's not as outlandish to think it may happen again as it once was. To be clear, Im not asking for an answer. Its not time for that yet. But, I hope we are asking
this is hard for an individual that has fought all his life to swallow, but I get it..Lord Jesus Christ that has all power at his disposal didn't fight back, so I wanting to walk the path of Lord Jesus Christ, must follow suit....for I am but a man & must Obey God Willingly....Amen
I thought that too, but Christ was here to be crucified... The next time Christ comes, He will not be a victim. He will not be running away, He will open his mouth and say a word and the tare will be removed from the wheat. So it's a tough call.
@@spartanastasI don’t think it’s a tough call. I will try to be like Christ but to sacrifice myself as Jesus did at the hands of someone trying to do me harm and especially my family? I won’t fill my head with lies. There is no point to try to imitate him and any attempt to make yourself ‘Christ-like’ is futile and will only be met with disappointment. Not to mention that the very thought of being like Christ is, in my opinion, a sin.
@@seanm8665 We will never be equal to Christ... this is true. But when we disregard the will of God because there is no chance of us being as Holy as He... that's when you start making excuses for everything. You'll have to decide what's best for you... but I just picked up 400 rounds of 5.56 at $0.41 cents a round... So I know what you're saying. I hope to avoid confrontation, but when they come for my family... virtue of giving my life so that they may live is on the table. Confess, repent, and forgive.
@@seanm8665 " Not to mention that the very thought of being like Christ is, in my opinion, a sin. " Please speak to a real priest about this line. I believe you got deceived majorly
@@vladgor4099 deceived’ majorly. What does that even mean? You people confuse ‘Christ like’ with Christ himself. You will never be Christ. And I don’t need to consult my priest but if I did he would agree with me and not just him but many other church fathers.
I get not defending oneself. However I am having trouble with the idea of not defending people who are defenseless and didn't provoke anything. It's clear that The Lord expects people to defend the defenseless but, that may mean using violence.
correct, the father is wrong, defend the weak, and the defensless that is what christ is about, christ is our lord and god he is in fact everything. but vengance is for him alone.
One example: Once I met a girl, who could not sit still a second, she seemed very traumatized. She was from Serbia and it was war over there and she told me that her grandfather had to go to fight and what he did was to drink a bottle of alcohol, then he went inmidst the flying bullets and got shot. He said that before I kill someone, I better get killed myself. Another example: My spiritual teacher for a long time, a Zen priest, told that by the end of WW II, suddenly he stood in front of a Russian soldier. They both were ready to kill each other. He had the thought, that this young man had a family waiting for him and he put his gun down and let him taken prisoner. He was not able to kill another person.
I listened to this, this afternoon. Thank you Father Peter; for approaching & discussing this; it can be a deeply troubling issue for many, but ultimately beneficial in the assessment of where our trust rests. Is our trust in God? Or is it in our own capabilities/faculties? A difficult thing for many people, including myself is a battle with the imagination. We never actually know what will transpire in our lives; only God knows. We can imagine all that we like, that we’ll do the “right thing” when a situation arises. Trouble is, our imagination/intellect does not know what the “right thing” is, nor does it know the future. Any dangerous situation will do this: it will teach us whether we trust God or not. We will either be aroused to fear and defense or we will be calmed with the reassurance that God has, and always will be in control. All of us will repose. Thus, it is better to be killed, than to kill. If you happen to kill (an impassioned state) then, you have the opportunity to repent if you confess yourself as a murderer without any excuse. You would also have the responsibility of confessing that the one who you murdered deserves The Kingdom of God more than you do. As a wife; I hope that I would have the courage to tell my husband not to murder the person who had me and our children at gun point. I hope that I would have the courage to tell him to put any weapon down & tell him to kneel and pray. It is a fact that this world can be a violent/distressing place. Therefore, the only place that we should seek to be/want to be ultimately is with God. I do not see the point in defending my life if it means murdering someone else. No matter how wretched/possessed that attacker seems to be; as Orthodox Christian, we have the blessing and the privilege to see this life as temporary, our repose as temporary; The Second Coming of Christ as Eternal. Saint Dionysios of Zakynthos, please pray for us always!
I know this is a lengthy comment but what do you expect when it's a sticky subject matter like this on life or death? I'll start by saying that whenever someone claiming to be Christian has a Christian ideology that looks like "Jesus take the wheel!" type of faith, my alarms go off. In other words, I'm calling it spiritual laziness, to be more blunt. In my opinion, a better way to think about the Christian faith is "Work like it depends on you, and pray like it depends on God." Now, I already know some Sunday School Graduate may try and take that out of context, thinking I'm someone who thinks they can earn their salvation through works. Just stop... I'm well aware of Ephesians 2:9, but Scripture also says James 2:14-26. So chill. It's a matter of the heart and your reasoning for doing the good works that determine which side you fall on. It's called "balance." I bring this up, because I'm seeing "Jesus take the wheel!" faith here. What Father Peter says at 14:19 in the video shows that. I'm doing my best here to make sure I don't strawman Father Peter's perspective and see if I'm the one who is missing something. A lot of details and thought processes to try and keep track of and straight here. 😅 I watched his other video recently about his thoughts on the Scripture of the selling a cloak to buy a sword before this one was recommended to me. Father Peter's thoughts in both videos are raising red flags for me, but I'm trying to figure this out. I'm still taking time to digest all this because I'm new to learning about Orthodoxy, and am a former Protestant. Protestants cherry-pick Scripture and don't seem to look at the bigger picture, whereas Orthodoxy seems to fill in those gaps the more I learn about it. Looking to go to my first liturgy soon once I understand the church etiquette better so I can be as respectful as possible my first time. But the same red flags that I was seeing in Protestantism and how it's a "doormat" version of Christian faith to the secular world, I'm seeing here whenever Father Peter talks about the topic of whether Christians are morally allowed to defend themselves. All-in-all, I get that Father Peter is basically saying "Love your enemy", and by sparing the attacker's life, they have more time to possibly find Christ, repent, and be saved. I can appreciate the idea of that from the Christian ethic. If you are capable of pulling that off in an unfortunate self-defense situation, then way more power to you! The self-control it would take in a moment like that to not end an attacker's life when they tried to take yours or a loved one's can't be understated. I also understand that if we truly believe we can overcome death and enter the kingdom of God through our faith in Jesus Christ, then what is there to "worry" about, basically? I use the word "worry" very lightly for lack of a better way of saying it. We're talking about life and death here. Trust me, I get it. Even though the Apostles and Saints were believers, they still ran and hid because they obviously still didn't want to die either. I'm hoping I didn't miss or forget anything, but it doesn't sound like Father Peter here is at all saying it's a salvation issue for the Christian who acts in self-defense. That it's more about "best practices" kind of a deal. I didn't hear him clearly say it's a salvation issue for the believer. It's obviously a salvation issue for the attacker. There are other things that are recommended we not do from the Christian ethic lens but are not a salvation issue. Like using debt. Yes, Scripture says it's dumb, but it doesn't mean you're going to hell either. So, to Father Peter (if you happen to see this comment), the Elder mentioned at 9:05, saying it is a crime if we kill, I'd like to see where in Scripture it says it's a moral crime or salvation issue. You said that he said it's in Scripture. Okay. Where? And it's not the 6th commandment of the 10 Commandments, because that specifically says "murder" not "kill", which is a very important distinction to make. That Elder and Elder Athanasius contradict each other by the way. One says we can fight as long as we don't kill, and Athanasius says don't fight at all... In the same way, you mention there are people in the Orthodox faith that you think are undeserving of influence (8:54), why shouldn't we think these Elders are undeserving of influence also?
Don't get it, isn't suicide a sin? Isn't allowing somebody to take your life willy nilly with out putting up a fight the equivalent? I get it from a persecution perspective, but a criminal to? Another factor is if you have dependents like family, won't dying essentially doom your kids?
Suicide is the ending of one’s own life out of despair and an abandonment of faith and hope in God. If someone threatens our life we can attempt to flee and do whatever possible to protect our loved ones while also placing faith and hope in God and doing everything possible to not kill others. The Lord said not to fear those who can kill the body because they cannot kill the soul (Matt. 10:28). As Orthodox Christians, our warfare is not directed against those who want to kill the body but against the demons who want to destroy our souls through temptation and sinful passions (Ephesians 6:12).
Many use Luke 22:36 to justify their stance. You may have another video addressing that verse that I haven't seen. What is the Orthodox view on that verse?
Notes from the Orthodox Study Bible says this: 35-38: The sword is not to be understood literally, but refers to the living word of God in the battle against sin. St. Ambrose adds an additional meaning that giving up one's garment and buying a sword refers to surrendering the body to the sword of martyrdom. Because the disciples were thinking of swords literally, Jesus abruptly ends the discussion with the words, "it is enough", or better translated "enough of this!".
Blessed Theophylact: "The Lord says this, not in fact that they use weapons, but, to hint to them of dangers and wars to come, and to teach them to prepare themselves for every eventuality." St. John Chrysostom: "He saith to them 'Let him buy a sword,' not that they should arm themselves, far from it, but, by this, clearing indicating His being betrayed."
Every Christian has an obligation to defend the holy church, sanctity and his brothers and sisters. We have many holy knights and soldiers in Serbia and Russia. I'm afraid that this video needs revision. Not to kill and to be killed means to receive a martyr's death but that can only applies to self-defense vs personal enemy like turning other cheek. A Christian cannot do nothing while evildoers destroy his church or rape his sister.
This does not make much sense. Men are called to die for their families during the marriage ceremony. Also the Batak massacre and the Ottoman rule (orthodox), the Crusades against Islam (Catholic) and Temple Whip (Jesus). This is not Buddhism, it is Christianity. There is also the element of good fighting evil. Not making excuses for myself, but it makes little sense and it sound like a cherry-pick. Furthermore, Revelations is a very symbolic book about a prophecy. It is rather silly to treat literally like the Protestants do.
Simon Peter had a sword and Lord surely knew about it, yet he allowed him to carry a sword. Does that not imply that the use of force in self-defense is authorized?
carrying a sword, and using a sword unjustly are two different things. a sword is not a heretical or sinfull item, it is just a tool which can be used for a variety of reasons. it is your responsibility to use it wisely and justly and not to use it for evil.
Luke 22:36. Obviously Jesus did not need defending, as for example a father's children might, and he rebuked Peter when he used the sword but Christ nonetheless commanded his disciples to have that sword. This teaching that Christians must not defend the innocent entrusted to them just boils down to moral relativism in practice. It requires heaps of outward displays of fake piety for someone to really hold that crimes against children or the elderly for example should not be met with exactly as much force as it takes to prevent them. It's just morally indifferent and makes no distinction between the innocent and weak vs the strong and wicked. And it's a teaching of luxury to be sure because it is so often uttered by people in nations that are maintained by laws and militaries who use force thankfully with some general bent towards moral goodness. Teach this with conviction from a wilderness or failed, anarchic state that lacks even the pretense of a just civil authority. They have the peaceful space to teach this only through the providential maintenance of men willing to bear force, for moral ends, informed by revealed truth, and in obedience to God. For our armed forces in defense of peace and freedom everywhere, let us pray to the Lord.
@@ShowmanJonathan I always felt that self in defense and defense of innocent force including deadly force as a last result is authorized. In case of politicians and military’s controlled by politicians I would be much more careful. Most politicians are not Godly people.
How do you wound and not kill though? There are those who have died from being punched once and there are those who have survived being shot multiple times.
@@thomasjohnston8970 I might be wrong. My understanding is God knows our intentions. If I try my best to only use the required force for protection and not more then I must do that and that only and not more. If However the "required forced' caused death of the attacker then its ok because God knows that we tried our best. I am obviously not a saint so I am probably wrong about this. Also I think it is unlikely. I mean I am not mike tyson lol I dont think my punches alone can kill someone. Also we must all learn how to fight too as the martial arts training will provide us the skill and calmness and focus needed in those critical moments to only use minimum force and not kill anyone.
Video request: Bible reading as newcomer/catechumen. Im a bit confused as to the frequency. I have the Orthodox Study Bible. Im curious if i should read more than prescribed. I noticed in Orthodox Ethos website that a recommendation is Ecclesiastes. I want to unlearn my Protestant understandings. I feel like I haven't really read the Bible much as all since coming to Orthodoxy. How is Scripture reading intertwined in prayer rules? How to prayerfully read the Bible? I read that Desert Father's story of the man who was deluded by not reading New Testament and had demons giving him prophetic knowledge. I feel I am potentially sinning by not using Scripture.
I listened to Russian Orthodox priests (not saying they are final authority on the matter) and they have totally different view on this, perhaps they are in more violent mode because of War in Ukraine.
Father, I have an unrelated question. The saints advise us to be in silence and to go within. What does it mean, or rather, what is the difference between this and the new age's "going within" ?
I don't have answers but tend toward defending others (family, neighbors, children, defenseless) without killing; otherwise, I try to walk with Christ as an Orthodox Christian and stay current on my life insurance premiums.😅 A couple more thoughts: 1) I am not God, so arguments that justify killing based on God taking lives aren't convincing to me at all; and 2) I am not a government employee, including military. More about 2): Arguments referring to solider saints or other Orthodox Christians (eg, kings, princes, knights, etc) engaged in war/combat have nothing to do with situations I might face as a civilian in the private sector. Why are so many comments appealing to the aforementioned people/scenarios? Again, I am not a government employee authorized to kill, nor have I been commissioned/sworn in/trained "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic" (an oath that requires taking life, if so ordered). I suspect that such comments are, for the vast majority of us, almost entirely irrelevant to what's in view here.
Even if you kill to protect family, you still took away that persons chance for repentance. Don’t return evil for evil, right? Turn the other cheek? Have an escape plan, get a guard dog, run or hide. This is the American mind for ya….. killing is killing, but we make it seem heroic by saying we at least saved some people. Death is not the end for us, but could be for that criminal… what would Jesus do?
You’re wrong, sorry. And Athanasius is wrong too. The guilt and sin associated with accidentally killing a killer vs the guilt and sin of allowing my children or wife to be killed? I would rather die and go to hell
I don't think it is wise to speak in such a way, specially not when there is saints that defend the necessity to protect the innocent and the fellow christians throught force. Using those testimonies should be enough to bring more nuance to this topic.
If someone threatens the life of our family we can attempt to flee and do whatever possible to protect our loved ones while also placing faith and hope in God and trying to do everything possible to not end someone else’s life.
@@OrthodoxEthosI'm sorry father but this is bad advice just like telling a child to run from a bully instead of standing up for themselves and fighting back. Like the bully will not ignore you just because you run away, the violent robber can chase you and your family down and kill them. Not fighting back is cowardice.
Father, bless!!! Some may see this response as wish-washy, but here goes: IMHO, the position set forth in the video is valid, but incomplete or possibly one-sided. There are plenty of examples in the lives of the Saints where fighting back (physically) is not done, and other examples where it is. St Ambrose in his commentary that addresses the 2 swords in Luke 22:36 says that on one level the 2 swords are OT and NT responses, both at our disposal. The law, Ambrose reminds us, does not forbid us to strike back. Certainly, a credible, immediate threat to the life or well-being of loved ones or even perfect strangers is a first aggression against which force may be warranted. That said, we must also consider that using force, even when ‘warranted’ is sinful and will require repentance and possibly penance afterward. In the face of real danger, this is not clear-cut. We (those who consider the use of force a last option) must think this through extensively, exhaustively, to have a solid, committed knowledge of when we will allow ourselves to use force.
Aside from martyrdom FOR THE FAITH as a man, father, and husband I will always resist evil and protect my family by the grace of God. A mans duty. Always has been and always will be.
Matthew 10:37
The best defense you have and always will have is prayer and trust in God. Any earthly terror/earthly “weapon” against it will pass away. God gave you life and “your”family in the first place. Will you be tricked by the devil; thinking that you should defend the temporary life of “your” wife & children by murder?
You are not God & you cannot truly protect “yourself, your wife, nor your children” from evil. Evil had its day & it is only Christ who shattered the gates of death & has offered us a way into The Kingdom of Heaven.
@@Marina_IC_XC_NIKA Why saints did it then? Why Saint Cyril praises christian soldiers? Why Saint Alexander Nevsky fought? Why bishops blessed greek revolutionaries? Sorry, but to frame this issue as merely one of pride or lack of faith seems to forget the fact that the harm done to ones family is done against fellow brothers in Christ, against fellow men. Obviously killing is evil and should be avoided, but to not act to prevent the harm and to merely let evildoers do whatever they want with one's children is beyond negligent.
@@Marina_IC_XC_NIKAYou're so deluded
@@Marina_IC_XC_NIKA self defense is not murder
If any man lets his family, other loved ones or even a stranger suffer at the hands of any other earthly being, that man is evil and a coward. When it comes to self defense it is your human right to defend your life against the being that is trying to hurt or kill you, but it remains a choice. When other lives are at stake, it is no longer a choice but rather an obligation.
This is the difference between the philosophical ethic and the Christian ethic of the saints.
@@evkoum It is saintly to allow your wife to be raped and your children to be killed? What about Saint Cyril Equal to the Apostles, that praised the service of the christian soldiers during the muslim invasions?
@@evkoum But how it is saintly to let your family be harmed by a stranger? What about Saint Cyril Equal to the Apostles that praised christian soldiers?
@@siruristtheturtle1289 What does being a soldier have to do with using deadly force against religious persecution?
@@patrickbarnes9874 The video seems concerned with religious persecution, but what people criticize in the comments is precisely that our main concern isn't persecution but strangers and enemies coming to do harm to our families.
As a single individual or monastic I agree with Father Heers and the Elder.But as a father or husband, you should do whatever you need to (in self defence) to protect your family. Why give up your life only so another can torture or kill your family? We are here to protect and preserve innocent life…God wouldn’t have given strength to the Hebrews when they warred if it wasn’t for a greater good. Lastly, I understand that Christ’s incarnation changed things for humanity but the Church wouldn’t existed if there weren’t courageous men and women who fought for it.
Exactly. If that is the case, you are basically encouraging the most corrupt to thrive. How can the kingdom of God thrive if everything is given to those who have no regard for those trying to live for his word?
And about Self Defense for one Self. As a Woman should I just Let men rape me and do nothing to stop it ? This Sounds actually evil. Defending myself, would also defend my love ones from Doing things to the criminal
"Although one is not supposed to kill, the killing of the enemy in time of war is both a lawful and praiseworthy thing. This is why we consider individuals who have distinguished themselves in war as being worthy of great honors, and indeed public monuments are set up to celebrate their achievements. It is evident, therefore, that at one particular time, and under one set of circumstances, an act is not permissible, but when time and circumstances are right, it is both allowed and condoned" -- St. Athanasius, Letter to Amun.
@Orthodox Ethos, one can find Saints are not unanimous on this topic of corporate pacifism.
Father, Canons and Holy Tradition dictate those who've killed in war are not to commune, for a period of up to 7yrs. How many Saints, including St. Paisios, were soldiers at some point in their life?
St. Paisios is not a good example because he did not want to be a soldier, and he intentionally did not even use a gun and would run into battle without arms and would grab wounded soldiers and bring them back to safety.
I agree with you in general though.
As a wife and mother I cannot fathom what kind of Christian husband and father would stand there and do nothing if an intruder was trying to rape and muder myself and the children.
He means in cases of persecution.. but of course, a man should fight an intruder, subdue them, and incapacitate them, just not kill them.
I carry a weapon. If the Lord wants me to use it to protect myself and my family then I will.
You must reconcile this with the common man’s dilemma of defending his family, loved ones, or friends from evil
Interesting discussion. I completely agree that the way of sanctity is in 'not resisting evil'
But i do wonder about all the Orthodox armies and warriors who defended Christendom for so many centuries, including St Demetrius of the Don and the schema monks Peresvet and Oslyabya? 🙏☦️
“If two commandments were written in one law and given to men for fulfilling, which man would be a better follower of the law: The one who fulfilled one commandment or the one who fulfilled both?’
The Saracens replied: “Undoubtedly, he who fulfills both commandments.”
St. Cyril continued: “Christ our God commands us to pray to God for those who persecute us and even do good to them, but He also said to us, ‘Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends’ (John 15:13). That is why we bear the insults that our enemies cast at us individually and why we pray to God for them. However, as a society, we defend one another and lay down our lives, so that the enemy would not enslave our brethren, would not enslave their souls with their bodies, and would not destroy them in both body and soul.” (From the Prologue of Ochrid)
There are many Christians (even priests from the Soviet Union) who served in the military and also protected their wives.
A man that protects his family is not "living by the sword".
He is protecting the family that God gave him.
If you watch anybody else hurt your family and do nothing, as a man, you are evil. Period.
We lay down our lives. Thats fine. We are commanded to. We are NOT commanded to watch innocents suffer and die. Especially the family we are charged with.
Just like Christ died for His Church. We would die for our family. And just like Christ, he died so that we may live. We also would die so they too would live.
Just like God fought for His people, Israel, in the OT and charged them to fight as they were God's People, our family is our chosen people under our covenant of marriage.
This is true, many Christians in military, like Saint George, Saint Demetrios, Emperor Constantine the Great, and as you say in more recent times many as well.
Why is there Orthodox prayers for the military then. And for them to be victorious?
Correct. I often wonder why every Sunday we pray for the armed forces. Why?
@@williamcordasco945 Do you exclude somebody in this word from prayer? No, so why would you exclude millirary men?
@@vladgor4099 Why pray for them to be victorious if what they are doing is anti-christian by nature? Do I need to remind you how Francis was condemned for doing the exact same thing in reference to homosexuals?
There's something that just doesn't add up here.
@@siruristtheturtle1289 I agree. I think there’s something that just doesn’t add up here from both arguments. The only one i know for a fact, crystal clear, is if you get put on your knees and told convert or die, you die. That’s all. All other situations i’m very mixed on
@@vladgor4099 >is if you get put on your knees and told convert or die, you die.
That's the example of the saints regarding martyrdom for the faith, yes. I think we all agree on this point.
>All other situations i’m very mixed on
The tragedy is that the mixed situations are sadly the most common and practical: There is very little martyrdom to be found in the West, but tons of christians currently serving in the military or in the police force.
May God have mercy on us and guide us to wisdom.
I am struggling with this idea of not using violence! I can't see myself not fighting for my family if an intruder enters my home!
Pray for me brothers and sisters
☦️ICXC
defend your family, in war time will you watch the assailant force themselves upon your wife, mother and daughter, and kill your father and your son? Unless god has taken them, you should defend them, protect them.
For me, I think about Luke 22:36 “He said to them, ‘But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.’” Some argue the sword isn't literal but it must be as Jesus implies to get one, you may need to sell your cloak first - this tells me it must be a literal sword. If the disciples are shocked by this command, they recover swiftly. In fact, they assure Jesus that they already have two swords in their possession (Luke 22:38).
So make them call your bluff? That's a terrible stance from a practical standpoint. If you're not willing to use the tool, you're more of a danger to yourself and others even having it.
I mean if we're to martyr ourselves then doesn't seem much different than suicide, might as well as be a Quaker lol.
@@Wyocaster You believe Jesus wanted to appear as ruffians for a prophecy? I hope you'll reconsider. I can't imagine any scenario where Jesus would want to be in costume and appear to be anything other than what He is.
@@Wyocaster Understood. But let's look at the metaphor theory. If it was a metaphor, why would Jesus say they may have to sell their cloak to buy a sword? Then consider 2 verses later that the disciples assured Jesus that not only did they already have a sword, they had 2 in their possession. Still think it's a metaphor?
From the Orthodox Study Bible:
"The sword (v. 36) is not to be understood literally (compare vv. 49-51), but refers to the living word of God in the battle against sin (Eph. 6:17; Heb. 4:12). St. Ambrose adds an additional meaning: that giving up one's garment and buying a sword refers to surrendering the body to the sword of martyrdom. Because the disciples were thinking of swords literally, Jesus abruptly ends the discussion with the words, or better translated, ** (see. Deuteronomy 3:26; Mark 14:41)." Mark 14:41 41 Then He came the third time and said to them, *“Are you still sleeping and resting? It is enough!* The hour has come; behold, the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Also read the rest of Luke 22 which refutes the use of the sword.
Luke 22:38
38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”
And He said to them, *“It is enough.”*
Luke 22:49-51
49 When those around Him saw what was going to happen, they said to Him, *“Lord, shall we strike with the sword?”* 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear.
51 *But Jesus answered and said, “Permit even this.”* And He touched his ear and healed him.
So why did Jesus tell the disciples to sell their cloaks and buy swords before sending them out? Also Jesus never told St. Peter not to carry a sword, He only told him to put it away when St. Peter was interfering with Jesus' arrest and lopped off the ear of the servant. Does anyone really believe that Jesus didn't know St. Peter was carrying a blade until he drew it to fillet the aggressors?
Im not a pacifist. Never will be.
I will protect my family and children against evil at the best of my ability. I don’t see how this is not Christian. I’m supposed to let evil murder my children? Very frustrating as I am not choosing to harm but am forced to. I disagree with the elder. Forgive me LORD
study the bible. the father has an interpretation, but our father in heaven is true. Jesus our Lord and God will express many things in the bible, he is the God of the OT as well as NT do not forget, He is Yhwh, He brought fire from the heavens to smite sodom and gomorah. do what the christ our lord and god has asked of us.
thou shall not murder, key word is murder. find the definintion of it, protecting your family will not be murder
If someone breaks into my house, I will accept judgement to defend my family so that *my children* have an opportunity to repent in the future. There is no earthly homily that will convince me otherwise.
The historical record shows that armed resistance is a part of the human experience and the Christian experience. The use of force against evil as a form of resistance has numerous precedence....they are all concessions to the fallen world and even the thinking of the Evil One. However, the Church has not been consistent in the promulgation of its teaching regarding these matters. Do we tell our youth to avoid military service or forbid it? Have not even monastics taken up arms (albeit rarely) at various times? Do humans not have a fundamental right to protect their families? Are we to allow Evil to grow in our midst, AS WE HAVE, and then exonerate ourselves when things go completely out of control? We MUST resist evil, but how? That is the question. This resistance must be unrelenting and STRONG. It can take many forms indeed. Our adversary and his minions work day and night opposing the good. Read the headlines and watch the news. Can we honestly say that our passivity has not resulted in the loss of an entire generation and millions of souls? The CHURCH MUST TEACH ON THESE THINGS WITH COURAGE!!
It is so touchy to do so ahead of a needed time. The absolute worst situation is having zealots, youth, jumping, and giving the world a reason to respond. But, just a new book of martyrs is the only answer is idk...
For evil to flourish simply requires good men to do nothing. Pacifism goes against every fiber of my God given soul as a veteran and retired police officer. If those who "live by the sword" are to perish by it, then who wields it. For I don't bear a sword for nothing. Romans 13:4.
Well if something goes against your desire, doesnt mean its wrong, were called to put to death our passions, doesn't that include your love of violence/combat? Also we aren't saying to do nothing, and we are not alone. We have a God bigger than anything who crushed death under his feet at the cross. Whos coming back and will destroy evil with the Word. Restrain somebody, jump in front of a bullet, car, take a knife for somebody, help somebody flee, shelter them, provide for them, but kill somebody? I need more convincing personally
@@vladgor4099 It's not mere "desire". It is simply the way God made me. The great warrior-king David was "a man after God's own heart." I fully understand that the vast majority of people are not "wired" the way I am, but if you are not, don't tell me that I am wrong. I would lay down my life to save others.
@@NMemone That’s fine because IF the Lord leads me into marriage it will be with a faithful woman who understands that this world means nothing and that we have an everlasting inheritance waiting for us.
God bless.
I’m medically retired army I went to prison after three armed home intruders broke into my home and held me and my pregnant wife at knife point on Nov 11 2018. I’d rather be tried by 9 than carried by 6 but what made my case more complex is that medical cannabis law in my state just went into effect at that time so I was guilty of possession so I’m at fault for that in my defense I was a advocate and did news interviews as a veterans advocate for medical legalization in Missouri and for industrial hemp. They never arrested the intruders they prosecutor tried to make them to be victims.
@@Streaker707 sorry to hear that. Surprised that it would happen in MO. It's one of the reasons I moved to Wyoming after retirement. Good solid non-leftist place where decent people are not treated like the scum that would break into a house.
So the lives of the wicked matter more than the innocent.
That is a stretch but I think anyone saying you shouldn’t defend yourself is trying too much to be like Christ. They’ll never be like Christ.
what makes us innocent?
@@keggor6998 Not innocent in the sense of sinless but there's a difference between the sins the average person makes and breaking into some one's house to kill them.
@@seanm8665 My comment was a bit extreme, and a stretch but we are talking about an extreme subject that has to do with people's lives, I probably should've said something else, and explained more, my comment is more based off of what the video conveyed to me, it seems that from the video a murderer's life, and soul are more valuable than someone who doesn't commit murder.
@@turtletoons1016 I understand what you’re saying and I agree with the sentiment that one should defend himself justly and righteously. I do not think that one should go to the ends of the earth to dispense justice and therefore judgement. Only God can truly judge. I do not agree with the man speaking in this video.
Our passions also allowed to be slain. In repentance. One follows the other. How long men have been warriors of the flesh and must now be warriors of the spirit!
God help us all!
How this squares with the necessity to protect one's family as a father or in general as a man? I understand that violence and war are indeed evil, but have we not examples of saints across the ages that were not only soldiers, but praised in fact for defending the faithful? Saint Alexander Nevsky, for example, wasn't condemned but praised for defending the Russian from the depredations of the Teutons, and there is also this quote from Saint Cyril Equal to the Apostles that is very illustrative:
"Christ is our God Who ordered us to pray for our offenders and to do good to them. He also said that no one of us can show greater love in life than he who gives his life for his friends (Jn. 15:3). That is why we generously endure offences caused us as private people. But in company we defend one another and give our lives in battle for our neighbours, so that you, having taken our fellows prisoners, could not imprison their souls together with their bodies by forcing them into renouncing their faith and into godless deeds. Our Christ-loving soldiers protect our Holy Church with arms in their hands. They safeguard the sovereign in whose sacred person they respect the image of the rule of the Heavenly King. They safeguard their land because with its fall the home authority will inevitably fall too and the evangelical faith will be shaken. These are precious pledges for which soldiers should fight to the last. And if they give their lives in battlefield, the Church will include them in the community of the holy martyrs and call them intercessors before God.”"
The lesson is self-defense is harsh, and I accept that often is our pride and fear what drive us to unnecesary violence... But when the line of someone we love is on the line I am not sure if the same principle applies at al.
@@ShowmanJonathan It is a common ocurrence? Genuine question.
This is very hard to swallow and creates a lot of internal conflict for me. Part of a woman’s instinct in mate selection is not just providing food, water, shelter, etc, but providing protection for her and their future children. Why would a woman choose an Orthodox man, instead of an heterodox, atheist or muslim man? All these young men flocking to Orthodoxy are coming mainly because the heterodox and secular world tells them not to act like men and/or men are evil. And now the message to men is to stand down, and not protect their families, churches, communities and neighbors? Is my understanding correct? Sorry Father, this is very disturbing to me.
The issue isn't at all clear cut, and there is examples of saints that defended the faithful from the depredations of the heterodox.
Troubling
Defend yourself and family but do not kill! That's what i got out of it.
I couldn’t agree more. I’m not okay with standing back and allowing evil to harm my family.
That's because he's wrong.
I think it's important to see the context in here which is speaking in particular to the anti-Christ. I recommend the book "On Resistance to Evil by Force" by Ivan Ilyin who was also an Orthodox Christian. In the book he offers various cases and nuances for different levels of violence. It's not as simple as simple as it seems. Orthodoxy is not a pacifist religion.
I recently bought this book, but I haven't read it yet. I've heard a lot of conflicting information on this subject and am trying to figure it out.
@@orthodoxphronesis Ilyin actually does make reference to Saints in his book. You didn't know that, just like I don't think you knew who Ilyin (spelled with one "L") was before reading this comment. Perhaps humble yourself and open your mind to what people smarter than you, such as Ilyin, have to say about the topic instead of rejecting it from the start. Also, Elder Athanasios isn't a canonized Saint, just like Ilyin isn't either (even if he was that wouldn't make him infallible, nor would it make those who aren't canonized worthless).
@@orthodoxphronesisyou should read what the St Basil and many many others have said about it. War and self defense is necessary.
There is a certain justification in Orthodox Christians taking up arms. As St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite explains: “If once the barbarians and infidels should succeed in gaining the upper hand, neither piety will be left, since they disregard it and seek to establish their own wicked faith and bad belief, now sobriety and maintenance of honor, seeing that their victory would be followed by many instance of violation and ravishment of young women and of young men. (interpretation of canon 13)@@orthodoxphronesis
fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2016/08/stump-priest-self-defense.html?m=1
Basil has several things to say about violence and war in his diocese. It was a border territory of the empire, and his administration had known several incursions by barbarian forces. Canon 13 of the 92 considers war:
Our fathers did not consider killings committed in the course of wars to be classifiable as murders at all, on the score, it seems to me, of allowing a pardon to men fighting in defense of sobriety and piety. Perhaps, though, it might be advisable to refuse them communion for three years, on the ground that their hands are not clean.
The balance and sense of discretion is remarkable in this little comment, one that bears much weight in terms of Eastern Orthodox understandings of the morality of war.
Just as people do not enter a war in order to enjoy war, but in order to be saved from war, so we do not enter this world in order to enjoy this world, but in order to be saved from it. People go to was for the sake of something greater than war. So we also enter this temporal life for the sake of something greater: for eternal life. And as soldiers think with joy about returning home, so also Christians constantly remember the end of their lives and their return to their heavenly fatherland.”
-St. Nikolai Velimirovich, Thoughts on Good and Evil
I have had this question for many years... after asking many Monks, Priests, a few Bishops any friends about what they thought about Self Defense... here is my conclusion:
We have saints by themselves chopping wood in the forest, and were robbed. The saint threw his axe to the ground and allowed the thief to rob and beat him. We all agree that any Saint in our history has not taken another person's life to defend their own. There are many examples of Saints being able to defend themselves but they allowed evil to do as they wished.
On the other hand, The best way to show love is to sacrifice your life for another person's. There is also virtue in self defense. For example, if someone was going to kill one of your friends, sacrificing your life to save theirs is the best way to show love. Raising a weapon makes you a target and takes the shooters attention off of everyone else and focusses it on the interceder. There is also the Maccabees revolt where they got tired of standing around waiting to be slaughtered. They began fighting back and were able to build the second temple. So after many years of thinking, researching, and asking Priests, Bishops, Monks and other Orthodox Christians... It's still a difficult question to answer.
Right now, I rest here: When you are by yourself, you should not fight the enemy when they confront and apprehended you, but if you're not alone, it can be virtuous to stop the threat against others at the expense of yourself as a sacrifice to save their lives. We should then treat the shooter with respect and fight to save their life afterwards, unless they were from "Mozambique"... then pray for their souls.
Thoughts?
This is the answer I got. It’s blessed to protect others who are in danger. If it’s just you, turn the other cheek, or at least do the least harm possible defending yourself, & get away. God is just; He will judge the situation fairly. You trust Him. Always stay close to God anyway!
We have saints who took lives.
Alexander Nevski, prince, slayer of Teutonic Knights.
Alexander Peresvet, monk, slayer of Mongols.
i agree with this
@@thecourier9290 from the point that they decided to be a follower of Christ, most Saints do not end others lives... St. George, St. Theodore... St. Demetrios... all gave their lives to Christ and from that point on, they did not kill.
@@spartanastas Saint Nestor took the life of an anti-Christian gladiator with the blessing of Saint Demetrios, who had already been imprisoned for his faith.
This has been on my mind a lot lately. I no longer have any interest in the world since I've begun to see it for what it is. I hate violence and try to avoid it at all costs because my lack of empathy makes it very difficult to moderate. Now, I'm not wishing for my own death but if I'm given an opportunity to see Christ face to Face, I'm not going to squander it by letting this demon take control of me.
Isn't this pertaining to persecution for BEING A CHRISTIAN? But otherwise, shouldn't we be able to defend our loved ones? Who could stand by and see a child abused or a woman or elderly etc abused? Not me!
Why did Christ tell his disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword before their journey? Why is St. Demetrios venerated for helping Nestor defeat Lyaios in the stadium? Why do the psalms say that there is a time to kill. And also say praise the Lord who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle? God Bless elder Athanasios but maybe his opinion is not totally correct all the time for everybody?
These examples are about persecution for BEING A CHRISTIAN. What about situations that have nothing to do with belief but are life-or-death to innocents?
He is the Lord of Hosts is he not? What about the saints like Constantine who were soldiers and did kill? That’s confusing to me.
Jesus is not a pacifist
jesus did not want pacificist, you cannot be passive. you must be active.
@@luisdaroczi8181 , This is stated by Jesus himself. He tells the Pharisees in John chapter 8 that he was the Angel of the Lord that met with Abraham in Genesis chapter 18. Guess where Jesus was going at the end of Genesis 18? To Sodom and Gomorrah. No. Obviously Jesus is not a pacifist and his judgment is fire and brimstone for the unrepentant.
Saint Demetrious, Saint George, King David, Abraham, Joshua. All these godly men have killed before in battle and in the line of duty. What is the difference with them? I know that David was barred from building the temple because he was a man of the sword (he lived a warriors life). This is a grey area and the speaker was not very clear. We men are called to defend the faith, our family and our mother country. The guerilla fighters who got the blessing before battles in the Greek Revolution of 1821 were many times led and blessed by Orthodox bishops and priests. I do not believe farmers and fishermen who happen to be called in the line of duty are living by the sword. We need more clarification.
Lord im a sinner , have mercy on me, people of god pray for me and my wife , we are in a cold whether and have no home to go. She has PTSD and need my care. Thank you in advance for your prayers 🙏
I take all teaching well, my question is not out of pride. But I must ask, as a husband and father, I am not to protect my family with up to lethal force? A husband and a father's duty has always been to protect their families in every way...at the end you say do everything we can and to not rush to do so, fine, but that's different from not doing it at all. If we retreat in our home to final line of defense and try everything we can to avoid it, and even then everything outside of lethal force, the answer is still "nope, let a random home breaker (as opposed to a devout persecutor of Christians) have their way with your family?
This seems to be overlooked a lot in these discussions. Lord have mercy on me, I don’t think I could watch someone try to harm my family.
Yes as a father and husband I’m troubled with this teaching also.
Yes you are. This nonsense of not protecting yourself and your family is not Biblical.
I've talked to my father about this. He told me as a husband and father it is my duty to protect my family. While I should do my best to end the situation peacefully, if you have to protect your family it's ok.
I think you're misunderstanding what is being stated, although I don't think it's your fault. The teaching is primarily about persecution, and there's much reference to ascetics. If someone persecutes YOU for your faith, do not try to match them. Do not try to fight fire with fire. However, you have an obligation to others, as you're a man in the world with a family. Your duty is to protect your family, but with due force. It might be that it's not possible for you to not use lethal force in the case of a home invasion at night. Whenever you find yourself in a situation requiring your intervention, immediately pray for God's help and do what you need to as to stop them. The goal is to prevent "loss" in any and all categories.
Lord have mercy on me, i dont think i have the spiritual strength to not hit back or stop others from being harmed.
That’s not a lack of spiritual strength. Defending others from legitimate danger is honorable.
@@OrthobroLocal1 Denfense includes hitting back if necesaary but make every effort to NOT kill! Kind of what a Police Officer "should" be doing. Thats how i understand it.
thou shall not murder, key word is murder.
Father Peter, I'm not asking out of contrarianism, but what about the Greek Revolution? How does that square with this teaching?
I believe the question about someone breaking into your house was asking about killing to protect loved ones, not yourself.
The problem is less “self preservation” and more “family preservation”
@@shawnpatrick1877 I love Christ and have faith in him but I don’t think I would be able to not defend my family
It is not our place to judge what is evil. But I will defend my family from any threat. God willing without violence.
@@shawnpatrick1877To kill someone is a sin… it’s pretty simple. If you kill the person and then in your pride begin to say “HE DESERVES IT! He was born evil! I’m good because I saved people, I’m a good person” that’s a dillusion and you should repent. If you’ve killed someone to save someone and then begin to beg God for forgivensss for having taken a life that’s different. This is like Orthodoxy (Christianity) 101…
@@popefunkopop6736 That sort of thinking is exactly why Pilate is mentioned by name in the creed: Passivity and absolving one's self of guilt solely because they aren't the ones doing the deed themselves. It can be argued that it had to have happen for the fulfilling of scripture, but even Jesus cursed Judas for his betrayal in "it would be better if they were never born."
@@popefunkopop6736all of us named after Saint George, a great warrior or Saint Dimitri Donskoi who killed probably around 100 thousand golden horde invaders, or Saint Olaf the Second who died in battle are named after evil men then?
I don't think I would be able to stand by and watch as my husband, mother, innocent children be harmed and not stop it. I suppose I will continue to struggle with it.
sacrificing one's life to protect the innocent is a virtueous act, much like how Christ sacrificed his life to save us.
and i would say that many Orthodox, including clergy would agree with this.
Don’t struggle with it, Fr Peter Heers is wrong
I think if martyrdom is in the cards for you, you will know and be prepared for that. If you’re expected to take a life in defense(self, family, nation), you’ll also know what to do(unless you’re a coward and don’t). I’m curious if there is anything from the Saints that delineates between being martyred and being murdered senselessly(the context of the situation). I can’t help but think that God may send a criminal to cross paths with a virtuous and violent man, from time to time, to end the evil spree of the criminal who is past repentance.
Ultimately, God will not put you in situations that He doesn’t want you in, nor that you can’t handle. People with a clear mind and soul will do the right thing. Idk. His will be done, not ours. Glory to God for all things.
By this logic he send criminals to kill good men because it was their time. And idk if I believe that.
I think I'll just vanquish all my enemies and let God be THEIR and MY judge on the Last Day.
You Monks can be Martyrs if you choose to be. I don't choose to be. I will resist with force.
I will pray for you Father, you pray for me.
you are allowed to protect your family. it is in the bible.
I can't remember the author, but I have an Orthodox pamphlet somewhere about Christiianity and War that gives one point of view that when the soldiers asked of St. John the baptist what they must do hhe doesn't tell them to disarm but to not intimidate nor accuse falsely, be content with your wages. That he understood borders needed protecting. I also understand at the same time that there were those who didn't defend themselves. I forget the two Russian monastic Saints who did not defend against their brother, who came to conquer the territory. They stood there to be slain.
Perhaps you are referring to The Christian Faith and War by Metropolitan Anthony
The Catholic stance on this is better. What are you going to do if someone attacks your wife? Just stand there and pray for her to go to Heaven or what, to me this is a bit delusional. Even defending yourself from, for instance a bully, is a right of yours and to defend your classmates or friends should be a duty. What a weird stance, don't defend yourself, you'll go to Heaven!
Fr John Whiteford wrote an excellent article about this topic with a very similar title to this video. It's extremely complicated and this video is correct in its opinion to always err on the side of Christ. Self preservation and personal insults or attacks are handled clearly by our Lord and his Saints. Protecting the innocent and "Righteous" use of violence to that end seems less clear to me. Christ himself said dying to protect others is a great glory (i don't recall the exact chapter and verse forgive me)
fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2016/08/stump-priest-self-defense.html?m=1
Father forgive me, I am but a layman, but I disagree strongly, with what you have stated and I think you have misunderstood the Elder.
One should never engage with evil, let evil be and it will destroy itself, but when evil attacks you and your loved ones, you have to take a stand, if you have the oppurtunitiy to protect yourself and your neighbour from sin you most do it, if not you are accomplice in the evil action. Sometimes this means even that we have to take the life of a man or make war on a nation, but the intention is not to do harm on them, but to protect what is already good and holy amongst us.
Its the same principle as why we have to make a stand against heretics and heresy, to defend and protect what is good and holy.
We cannot generlize every situation and we should always look for the best of both ourself and our neighbour, but there are circumstances when this is not possible, when you can´t save your neighbour, but rather have to protect your lovedes ones from him.
I hope you understand what I am trying to say
I joined the Church at Nativoty this last year but have been greatly struggling with this very idea since I began enquiring over a year ago. I had the intuition that what you are teaching is the right way, but it is very much counter to my prior (or rather current) mindset.
Please pray for me, Father.
The real question is your position. Self defense is one thing, defending your family and Nation is something else
This is a discussion severely lacking nuance which will not I think help inquiry into Orthodoxy; it certainly has not helped me as a Catechumen. How did Constantine the Great take his Empire? Was that sinful? Should Constantinople have been surrendered wholly to the Ottomans when they came to sack the Queen of Cities? Should the White Army have lain down their arms without any fight? What about Saint Nestor? What of Saint Olaf? Saint George? Are they all in error? Should Christ have not defended the Adulterous Woman: do you think that if any of the accusers had dared to actually throw a stone, he would not have stopped it? What should we as Christians do when charged with defending the innocent? If we let ourselves perish without resistance, and as such those innocent are gravely harmed, have we even acted at all? That almost sounds grimly pharisaic (I did as was required of me even to no avail, oh well, I was barely a speedbump). There is much to be thought of in these matters that are not broaches by Father Heers, that I would like to know about. I will have to talk with my own priest when he is free.
fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2016/08/stump-priest-self-defense.html?m=1
Agreed
Why did you include Jesus defending the adulterous woman. The discussion is on killing. Who did Jesus kill?
Defend, help flee, provide and shelter, restrain attackers, jump in front of a car to save somebody, jump in front of a bullet, etc etc etc etc, but be on the other side of the glock blasting, im not sure, i havent seen a convincing argument beyond what we all want personally ( which is to be on the other side of the glock lol )
@@vladgor4099 You keep ignoring all the examples he brought up of saints that used force, from St Olaf to Nevsky and St George, St Constantine and multiple military campaigns blessed by orthodox bishops.
@@siruristtheturtle1289 Because that’s insignificant, i’m addressing the issue of him using Jesus as an example which is very wrong. He was implying Jesus killed somebody so i corrected it. We have one man as a perfect example, our God Jesus Christ.
I hope you’d agree.
When it comes to other saints, i do not know, i don’t know if they’re perfect and have no more desires and passions and temptations, i don’t know if they’re infallible ( clearly not since some popes corrected and even recanted other saints and popes words ) so just because they said or did something doesn’t mean it’s right.
I’m learning on this, i’m just looking for a solid argument that says you can kill, because believe me i rather kill, it’s much easier ( not to protect myself, or when it comes to faith, i’m only talking in the odd event where it’s a random act of violence on your family, not over faith, do you kill or allow to be killed )
I would like to see the “thou shalt not kill” vs the “Thou shalt not murder” translation discrepancy here, too.
Ask king David the Israelite if he was a pacifist
I prefere Ivan Iljin "On resistance to evil by force"
Thank you for this message brother. This has been on my heart for a while.
Regardless of how impossible it might seem for us, it is possible for God to do all things. To kill another human to protect your family is to have fear of what can happen to them in this life. You who say you would take up the sword, why are you afraid? And if not afraid, why do you hate those who are yet ignorant in darkness that are slaves to death? If you do not hate or have fear, then what would cause you to think that it would be good for you to judge another human in this life when God is the only one who judges in this life and the next. Do you not think that if our Father wanted, He would end the life of that person that seeks to do harm to your children? Do you think that God couldnt turn that evil into eternal good for His glory? So what do you do “as a man”? You do all that you can, even unto death, to stop that other human from committing such grievous moral sin. Do all through the pure love of Jesus, abide in His love while you fight for that person that is killing you. Pray as you are dying for their salvation and freedom from their enslaver. Pray for the infinite strength and love of your family who might end up suffering. Search the scriptures and seek the love of God, not seeking what we want to see. Our flesh tells us to kill and hate, but the Lord God Jesus tells us to sacrifice and love. Dont listen to the enemy about what you “should do”, listen to God. Have the confidence and peace that sees beyond death.
"In this sign, you shall conquer" heard Constantine, becoming the elected to wipe the heathens before his army (also full of pagans, ironically) to eventually bring a new era to Europe.
i agree with fr heers on this topic i realize those with small children and wives would think of defense but please consider that defense is not killing so we have this in the example of the lives of the saints as Christ taught the apostles to do as well so this is the standard i will not judge anyone else who thinks in the moment to protect their family from horrendous crimes but just consider all the saints and what they endured for Christ
I needed this right now.
Xristos Anesti father. My question is What about the empire defending itself with force. We have so many saints that were soldiers. So many historical accounts of Constantinople being defended and prayers being given to the theotokos for the defense of the city. At what point do you defend yourself. Christ chasing away people from his father’s house. Your thoughts, God help ☦️
Fr Heers just kind of bleeps past in the last 3 minutes our responsibility to others. I'm next to a day care. Do I let a disgruntled parent end 30 kids and 5 teachers because they lost a custody dispute and became unhinged? As an American there is zero legal distance between myself and the ones Paul says "do not wield the sword in vain", and are here for establishing the order of God. If all things are ordained by Him, is my presence as one able to keep order not part of that matrix, and not something external to it? Unanswered questions that are very pertinent and not mere philosophical evasions.
The irony is that the right to bear arms isn’t about self defense on an individual level, but the defense of the nation against foreign and domestic enemies. This is a carry over from traditional martial culture where the king could call upon the people to serve in a military capacity. Similarly, there are still laws on the books in America that allow for the deputization of people, or defining of the militia as any able bodied man between the ages of say 15-45yrs of age.
But, the obsession of self defense neglects the duties it entails. Even according to the ancient masters of war. Violence was only used for the benefit of others, and even for the benefit of the slain. Even Saints like St. John Chrysostom values warriors. Great discernment must be practiced. For majority of people, it is much safer to not use violence at all. There are Saints that can be studied concerning how to use violence like St. Samson, St. King David, St. King Josiah, St. Constantine, St. Justinian the Emperor, St. Alexander of Nevsky, and St. Michael the Archangel with many others.
There is enough to justify Christian violence within the Church, but it doesn’t justify the modern approach to it. The stark difference is the perception of using violence to resist evil in the modern sense. Compared to using violence as a remedial action in the traditional sense. A warrior is often compared to a doctor. Where he cuts off the worst members in order to save the whole.
I would agree with this perspective, but the nuance you are bringing to this topic is not very present in Fr Heers explanation, resulting in the current confusion. The example of the military saints is simply ignored.
To be fair, this kind of “nuanced” position isn’t really present anywhere. Fr. Peter Heers and I attend the same monastery where I find essentially nobody even amongst over 50+ Fathers knows this stuff. But to be fair, Fr. Peter Heers did put “AN Orthodox Christian Analysis” and didn’t put “THE Orthodox Christian Analysis” lol. Autism x100.
@@ArizonaTengu Hahahaha, fair, even if a bit concerning. With so many christians in the armed forces one would think this topic would be a little more present or studied, specially when there is examples of both extreme "pacifism" but also great martial exploits within the orthodox church.
@siruristtheturtle1289
It’s probably an act of mercy from God. Many evils have been done in His name simply from the examples found in the Old Testament. American Puritans believed themselves to be the new Israel, and that led to concepts like manifest destiny that had entire nations of Indians experience genocide. Then of course the secular state of Israel who seek to genocide Palestinians. There’s enough information in the Church for people like myself to study, but much more could lead less cautious people into thinking Christianity is a conquering religion. Fun fact though, Christian warriors who die in battle defending the nation or empire are counted as martyrs.
@siruristtheturtle1289
Well…there is a difference between a soldier and a warrior. A soldier does his duty for wealth, fame, and women. A warrior does his duty because it’s the will of God. I know the words aren’t well understood nowadays, but there is a distinct difference in the two martial cultures. I personally haven’t found to much insightful knowledge from soldiers. They’ve almost always been from martial artists who practice on their own time and dime.
Christ is Risen!!!
Wound but not kill is extremely difficult in a self defense and defense of others situation. Allowing the defenseless the possibility of being raped, tortured and /or murdered can be a result of Turning the other cheek. Would that make one responsible for the evil that befalls the defenseless since one did not defend due to this interpretation of this teaching??? I struggle with this reaction to evil. “ oh LORD help know the way where in I should Walk. “ Psalm 142/143
Christ is Risen
♾️☦️♾️
You rightly keyed in on one of his errors. "Resist without killing" or even "wound without killing' as Mr Heers tried to allude to (especially in his watery attempts at backpedaling in some responses) present a distinction without a real difference. The separation between "some force to stop or delay you" and "enough force to kill you" is only a matter of degree with points in the middle that injure or disfigure people. This is why police refer to their tazers, pepper spray, and batons etc. as "less lethal" and specifically not "non-lethal." Because people can and have been killed by their use. When does he propose that the Christian enters into sin by their resistance to evil in defense of the innocent? At 10% likelihood of causing death? At 51%? At 1%? His incoherence is exposed quickly upon examination.
If he merely teaches that force should be proportional to the threat and not result in death if at all possible, then he has not stated anything insightful or noteworthy. Even the secular laws in the US that govern police use of force and civilian defense of self/others thankfully incorporate principals of proportionality and consideration for disparity of force. It's almost as if he believes that non-pacifism holds to some giddy attraction to the opportunity to "justifiably" kill someone. It is not at all the sentiment of Christians who affirm their duty to use force in some situations. Such an instance is regrettable and tragic and should be avoided as much as possible.
It's clear that he didn't think his teaching through because it is easily shown to be internally incoherent (as so many morally relativistic teachings are).
Somewhere we heard that just as it is not suicide for a person to kill themselves as a last resort, rather than be sexually assaulted, then neither is it considered murder to defend the home or nation as a last resort.
The servants of God built the wall around the city & temple while bearing arms in one hand & a tool in the other.
But the order is escape if you can, evade if you cannot escape, & if all else fails, engage & protect the innocents.
But yes,
It is better to die than to kill if you are not responsible for anyone else's safety.
I strongly agree with your first two statements, but can you please tell me where did you hear that? I've been wanting to hear someone confirm this. Do you have any bible verses to support it?
@@agorist.boogaloo in St Paisios book
Channel "God Family and Guns" has great scriptural references on defending yourself with weapons.
We, as Christians, have an obligation to defend innocent life. Especially if we are to be fathers and husbands -- we have a duty before God to defend, even to the point of killing, if our wives or children are ever placed in mortal danger. To do any less would be an affront to God.
Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me. How do we find a job that doesn’t serve the anti-Christ so we can afford an our heads.
I think this teaching might be correct but it doesn’t sit very well with me. He says fight them, but men can die to a punch or a shove what are we to do? How is one able to fight off an attacker without killing him when the fight alone can kill him? I truly do not understand.
Yeah sorry this pacifist attitude does not make the world a better place. Allowing evil people to rob and murder is not some virtue. If someone is breaking into your house and you do not defend your family then you are a coward and the less than a man.
How about maiming an attacker as long as you don't kill him, and then help him afterward? Like causing a superficial wound that stops the attack and prevents him from attacking another person? This subject has been in my mind for a while.
Read On Resistance to Evil by Force.
When people have a family or anyone else they love or anyone else close to them, it is their duty to protect them. You can't decide they have to die just because you want to become a saint. That would be selfish. That would be evil. A father who wants his children to suffer and to die because he wants to become a saint is just an evil person full of bad pride. He does not have the right to decide for them. In 1821 Mount Athos monks protected families and some of them died fighting.
This mentality is why Constantinople was lost
10s of millions, allot Christian, killed not physically resisting communism, when it was a minority. Are we to do nothing different? I know this is an incredibly touchy subject. But it's not as outlandish to think it may happen again as it once was. To be clear, Im not asking for an answer. Its not time for that yet. But, I hope we are asking
They did resist. Ever heard of the Whites ? The Czars men.
Yes repentance is the answer to all questions. Lord have mercy!
this is hard for an individual that has fought all his life to swallow, but I get it..Lord Jesus Christ that has all power at his disposal didn't fight back, so I wanting to walk the path of Lord Jesus Christ, must follow suit....for I am but a man & must Obey God Willingly....Amen
I thought that too, but Christ was here to be crucified... The next time Christ comes, He will not be a victim. He will not be running away, He will open his mouth and say a word and the tare will be removed from the wheat. So it's a tough call.
@@spartanastasI don’t think it’s a tough call. I will try to be like Christ but to sacrifice myself as Jesus did at the hands of someone trying to do me harm and especially my family? I won’t fill my head with lies. There is no point to try to imitate him and any attempt to make yourself ‘Christ-like’ is futile and will only be met with disappointment. Not to mention that the very thought of being like Christ is, in my opinion, a sin.
@@seanm8665 We will never be equal to Christ... this is true. But when we disregard the will of God because there is no chance of us being as Holy as He... that's when you start making excuses for everything. You'll have to decide what's best for you... but I just picked up 400 rounds of 5.56 at $0.41 cents a round... So I know what you're saying. I hope to avoid confrontation, but when they come for my family... virtue of giving my life so that they may live is on the table. Confess, repent, and forgive.
@@seanm8665 " Not to mention that the very thought of being like Christ is, in my opinion, a sin. " Please speak to a real priest about this line. I believe you got deceived majorly
@@vladgor4099 deceived’ majorly. What does that even mean? You people confuse ‘Christ like’ with Christ himself. You will never be Christ. And I don’t need to consult my priest but if I did he would agree with me and not just him but many other church fathers.
I get not defending oneself. However I am having trouble with the idea of not defending people who are defenseless and didn't provoke anything. It's clear that The Lord expects people to defend the defenseless but, that may mean using violence.
Why did the Apostle Simon Peter carry a sword if not for self defense?
correct, the father is wrong, defend the weak, and the defensless that is what christ is about, christ is our lord and god he is in fact everything. but vengance is for him alone.
was there not soldier martyrs?
One example: Once I met a girl, who could not sit still a second, she seemed very traumatized. She was from Serbia and it was war over there and she told me that her grandfather had to go to fight and what he did was to drink a bottle of alcohol, then he went inmidst the flying bullets and got shot. He said that before I kill someone, I better get killed myself.
Another example: My spiritual teacher for a long time, a Zen priest, told that by the end of WW II, suddenly he stood in front of a Russian soldier. They both were ready to kill each other. He had the thought, that this young man had a family waiting for him and he put his gun down and let him taken prisoner. He was not able to kill another person.
I believe that the greatest Christian empire of all time, the Byzantine Empire - full of saints, defended itself. Not sure how you square that circle.
I listened to this, this afternoon. Thank you Father Peter; for approaching & discussing this; it can be a deeply troubling issue for many, but ultimately beneficial in the assessment of where our trust rests. Is our trust in God? Or is it in our own capabilities/faculties?
A difficult thing for many people, including myself is a battle with the imagination. We never actually know what will transpire in our lives; only God knows.
We can imagine all that we like, that we’ll do the “right thing” when a situation arises. Trouble is, our imagination/intellect does not know what the “right thing” is, nor does it know the future. Any dangerous situation will do this: it will teach us whether we trust God or not. We will either be aroused to fear and defense or we will be calmed with the reassurance that God has, and always will be in control.
All of us will repose. Thus, it is better to be killed, than to kill. If you happen to kill (an impassioned state) then, you have the opportunity to repent if you confess yourself as a murderer without any excuse. You would also have the responsibility of confessing that the one who you murdered deserves The Kingdom of God more than you do.
As a wife; I hope that I would have the courage to tell my husband not to murder the person who had me and our children at gun point. I hope that I would have the courage to tell him to put any weapon down & tell him to kneel and pray.
It is a fact that this world can be a violent/distressing place. Therefore, the only place that we should seek to be/want to be ultimately is with God. I do not see the point in defending my life if it means murdering someone else. No matter how wretched/possessed that attacker seems to be; as Orthodox Christian, we have the blessing and the privilege to see this life as temporary, our repose as temporary; The Second Coming of Christ as Eternal.
Saint Dionysios of Zakynthos, please pray for us always!
I know this is a lengthy comment but what do you expect when it's a sticky subject matter like this on life or death? I'll start by saying that whenever someone claiming to be Christian has a Christian ideology that looks like "Jesus take the wheel!" type of faith, my alarms go off. In other words, I'm calling it spiritual laziness, to be more blunt. In my opinion, a better way to think about the Christian faith is "Work like it depends on you, and pray like it depends on God." Now, I already know some Sunday School Graduate may try and take that out of context, thinking I'm someone who thinks they can earn their salvation through works. Just stop... I'm well aware of Ephesians 2:9, but Scripture also says James 2:14-26. So chill. It's a matter of the heart and your reasoning for doing the good works that determine which side you fall on. It's called "balance." I bring this up, because I'm seeing "Jesus take the wheel!" faith here. What Father Peter says at 14:19 in the video shows that. I'm doing my best here to make sure I don't strawman Father Peter's perspective and see if I'm the one who is missing something. A lot of details and thought processes to try and keep track of and straight here. 😅
I watched his other video recently about his thoughts on the Scripture of the selling a cloak to buy a sword before this one was recommended to me. Father Peter's thoughts in both videos are raising red flags for me, but I'm trying to figure this out. I'm still taking time to digest all this because I'm new to learning about Orthodoxy, and am a former Protestant. Protestants cherry-pick Scripture and don't seem to look at the bigger picture, whereas Orthodoxy seems to fill in those gaps the more I learn about it. Looking to go to my first liturgy soon once I understand the church etiquette better so I can be as respectful as possible my first time. But the same red flags that I was seeing in Protestantism and how it's a "doormat" version of Christian faith to the secular world, I'm seeing here whenever Father Peter talks about the topic of whether Christians are morally allowed to defend themselves.
All-in-all, I get that Father Peter is basically saying "Love your enemy", and by sparing the attacker's life, they have more time to possibly find Christ, repent, and be saved. I can appreciate the idea of that from the Christian ethic. If you are capable of pulling that off in an unfortunate self-defense situation, then way more power to you! The self-control it would take in a moment like that to not end an attacker's life when they tried to take yours or a loved one's can't be understated. I also understand that if we truly believe we can overcome death and enter the kingdom of God through our faith in Jesus Christ, then what is there to "worry" about, basically? I use the word "worry" very lightly for lack of a better way of saying it. We're talking about life and death here. Trust me, I get it. Even though the Apostles and Saints were believers, they still ran and hid because they obviously still didn't want to die either.
I'm hoping I didn't miss or forget anything, but it doesn't sound like Father Peter here is at all saying it's a salvation issue for the Christian who acts in self-defense. That it's more about "best practices" kind of a deal. I didn't hear him clearly say it's a salvation issue for the believer. It's obviously a salvation issue for the attacker. There are other things that are recommended we not do from the Christian ethic lens but are not a salvation issue. Like using debt. Yes, Scripture says it's dumb, but it doesn't mean you're going to hell either.
So, to Father Peter (if you happen to see this comment), the Elder mentioned at 9:05, saying it is a crime if we kill, I'd like to see where in Scripture it says it's a moral crime or salvation issue. You said that he said it's in Scripture. Okay. Where? And it's not the 6th commandment of the 10 Commandments, because that specifically says "murder" not "kill", which is a very important distinction to make. That Elder and Elder Athanasius contradict each other by the way. One says we can fight as long as we don't kill, and Athanasius says don't fight at all... In the same way, you mention there are people in the Orthodox faith that you think are undeserving of influence (8:54), why shouldn't we think these Elders are undeserving of influence also?
I'm a little confused. At one point this says we can use force to resist but not kill, at another point it says not to resist.
Don't get it, isn't suicide a sin? Isn't allowing somebody to take your life willy nilly with out putting up a fight the equivalent? I get it from a persecution perspective, but a criminal to?
Another factor is if you have dependents like family, won't dying essentially doom your kids?
Suicide is the ending of one’s own life out of despair and an abandonment of faith and hope in God. If someone threatens our life we can attempt to flee and do whatever possible to protect our loved ones while also placing faith and hope in God and doing everything possible to not kill others. The Lord said not to fear those who can kill the body because they cannot kill the soul (Matt. 10:28). As Orthodox Christians, our warfare is not directed against those who want to kill the body but against the demons who want to destroy our souls through temptation and sinful passions (Ephesians 6:12).
Many use Luke 22:36 to justify their stance. You may have another video addressing that verse that I haven't seen. What is the Orthodox view on that verse?
Notes from the Orthodox Study Bible says this:
35-38:
The sword is not to be understood literally, but refers to the living word of God in the battle against sin. St. Ambrose adds an additional meaning that giving up one's garment and buying a sword refers to surrendering the body to the sword of martyrdom. Because the disciples were thinking of swords literally, Jesus abruptly ends the discussion with the words, "it is enough", or better translated "enough of this!".
Blessed Theophylact: "The Lord says this, not in fact that they use weapons, but, to hint to them of dangers and wars to come, and to teach them to prepare themselves for every eventuality."
St. John Chrysostom: "He saith to them 'Let him buy a sword,' not that they should arm themselves, far from it, but, by this, clearing indicating His being betrayed."
Every Christian has an obligation to defend the holy church, sanctity and his brothers and sisters. We have many holy knights and soldiers in Serbia and Russia. I'm afraid that this video needs revision. Not to kill and to be killed means to receive a martyr's death but that can only applies to self-defense vs personal enemy like turning other cheek. A Christian cannot do nothing while evildoers destroy his church or rape his sister.
This one is tough!
This does not make much sense. Men are called to die for their families during the marriage ceremony. Also the Batak massacre and the Ottoman rule (orthodox), the Crusades against Islam (Catholic) and Temple Whip (Jesus). This is not Buddhism, it is Christianity. There is also the element of good fighting evil. Not making excuses for myself, but it makes little sense and it sound like a cherry-pick. Furthermore, Revelations is a very symbolic book about a prophecy. It is rather silly to treat literally like the Protestants do.
Simon Peter had a sword and Lord surely knew about it, yet he allowed him to carry a sword. Does that not imply that the use of force in self-defense is authorized?
carrying a sword, and using a sword unjustly are two different things.
a sword is not a heretical or sinfull item, it is just a tool which can be used for a variety of reasons.
it is your responsibility to use it wisely and justly and not to use it for evil.
@@ishitrealbad3039 My point is that self defense might not be a sin. If Jesus allowed his disciple to Cary a sword it was obviously for self defense.
@@mikeabc5355 yeah, no.
Luke 22:36. Obviously Jesus did not need defending, as for example a father's children might, and he rebuked Peter when he used the sword but Christ nonetheless commanded his disciples to have that sword.
This teaching that Christians must not defend the innocent entrusted to them just boils down to moral relativism in practice. It requires heaps of outward displays of fake piety for someone to really hold that crimes against children or the elderly for example should not be met with exactly as much force as it takes to prevent them. It's just morally indifferent and makes no distinction between the innocent and weak vs the strong and wicked.
And it's a teaching of luxury to be sure because it is so often uttered by people in nations that are maintained by laws and militaries who use force thankfully with some general bent towards moral goodness. Teach this with conviction from a wilderness or failed, anarchic state that lacks even the pretense of a just civil authority. They have the peaceful space to teach this only through the providential maintenance of men willing to bear force, for moral ends, informed by revealed truth, and in obedience to God.
For our armed forces in defense of peace and freedom everywhere, let us pray to the Lord.
@@ShowmanJonathan I always felt that self in defense and defense of innocent force including deadly force as a last result is authorized. In case of politicians and military’s controlled by politicians I would be much more careful. Most politicians are not Godly people.
Wound, but not kill. Got it.
How do you wound and not kill though? There are those who have died from being punched once and there are those who have survived being shot multiple times.
@@thomasjohnston8970 I might be wrong. My understanding is God knows our intentions. If I try my best to only use the required force for protection and not more then I must do that and that only and not more. If However the "required forced' caused death of the attacker then its ok because God knows that we tried our best. I am obviously not a saint so I am probably wrong about this. Also I think it is unlikely. I mean I am not mike tyson lol I dont think my punches alone can kill someone. Also we must all learn how to fight too as the martial arts training will provide us the skill and calmness and focus needed in those critical moments to only use minimum force and not kill anyone.
@@thomasjohnston8970 pick your battles, or run.
@@SCPDOGE_ You do not always have the choice to pick your battles or run.
@@thomasjohnston8970 you always have a choice.
Video request: Bible reading as newcomer/catechumen. Im a bit confused as to the frequency. I have the Orthodox Study Bible. Im curious if i should read more than prescribed. I noticed in Orthodox Ethos website that a recommendation is Ecclesiastes. I want to unlearn my Protestant understandings. I feel like I haven't really read the Bible much as all since coming to Orthodoxy.
How is Scripture reading intertwined in prayer rules? How to prayerfully read the Bible? I read that Desert Father's story of the man who was deluded by not reading New Testament and had demons giving him prophetic knowledge. I feel I am potentially sinning by not using Scripture.
Do not show this video to the police or military because our civilization would fall into barbarism
Dear Father, how do we address Luke 22:36?!
How would you apply 1Timothy 5:8 in the context of protecting your family?!
This seems to be a much different stance than ROCOR
What if the one sent to apprehend is a robot? Can you shoot it then?
I listened to Russian Orthodox priests (not saying they are final authority on the matter) and they have totally different view on this, perhaps they are in more violent mode because of War in Ukraine.
Matthew 26 53-54
The guy on the thumbnail has terrible trigger discipline.
Father, I have an unrelated question.
The saints advise us to be in silence and to go within. What does it mean, or rather, what is the difference between this and the new age's "going within" ?
I don't have answers but tend toward defending others (family, neighbors, children, defenseless) without killing; otherwise, I try to walk with Christ as an Orthodox Christian and stay current on my life insurance premiums.😅 A couple more thoughts: 1) I am not God, so arguments that justify killing based on God taking lives aren't convincing to me at all; and 2) I am not a government employee, including military. More about 2):
Arguments referring to solider saints or other Orthodox Christians (eg, kings, princes, knights, etc) engaged in war/combat have nothing to do with situations I might face as a civilian in the private sector. Why are so many comments appealing to the aforementioned people/scenarios? Again, I am not a government employee authorized to kill, nor have I been commissioned/sworn in/trained "to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic" (an oath that requires taking life, if so ordered). I suspect that such comments are, for the vast majority of us, almost entirely irrelevant to what's in view here.
Father I feel you failed to answer the question of what to do if you have a family.
Even if you kill to protect family, you still took away that persons chance for repentance. Don’t return evil for evil, right? Turn the other cheek? Have an escape plan, get a guard dog, run or hide. This is the American mind for ya….. killing is killing, but we make it seem heroic by saying we at least saved some people. Death is not the end for us, but could be for that criminal… what would Jesus do?
Go be a Mennonite
You’re wrong, sorry. And Athanasius is wrong too. The guilt and sin associated with accidentally killing a killer vs the guilt and sin of allowing my children or wife to be killed? I would rather die and go to hell
I don't think it is wise to speak in such a way, specially not when there is saints that defend the necessity to protect the innocent and the fellow christians throught force. Using those testimonies should be enough to bring more nuance to this topic.
@@siruristtheturtle1289 This interpretation is incorrect, think of what I’m saying however you like.
If someone threatens the life of our family we can attempt to flee and do whatever possible to protect our loved ones while also placing faith and hope in God and trying to do everything possible to not end someone else’s life.
@@OrthodoxEthosI'm sorry father but this is bad advice just like telling a child to run from a bully instead of standing up for themselves and fighting back. Like the bully will not ignore you just because you run away, the violent robber can chase you and your family down and kill them. Not fighting back is cowardice.
Father, bless!!! Some may see this response as wish-washy, but here goes:
IMHO, the position set forth in the video is valid, but incomplete or possibly one-sided. There are plenty of examples in the lives of the Saints where fighting back (physically) is not done, and other examples where it is. St Ambrose in his commentary that addresses the 2 swords in Luke 22:36 says that on one level the 2 swords are OT and NT responses, both at our disposal. The law, Ambrose reminds us, does not forbid us to strike back. Certainly, a credible, immediate threat to the life or well-being of loved ones or even perfect strangers is a first aggression against which force may be warranted. That said, we must also consider that using force, even when ‘warranted’ is sinful and will require repentance and possibly penance afterward. In the face of real danger, this is not clear-cut. We (those who consider the use of force a last option) must think this through extensively, exhaustively, to have a solid, committed knowledge of when we will allow ourselves to use force.