How Camera ISO Works: Native, Dual & The Secrets of Noise
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- Опубликовано: 11 июл 2024
- ISO is more complicated than you think. When you started out, you were probably taught that increasing your ISO would increase the sensitivity of your sensor, making the shot brighter but adding more noise. The problem is... that isn't exactly true. In this episode of Film Science, we learn about Native ISO, Dual Native ISO, Variant and Invariant cameras as well as the ISO settings to use for clean video. Some of it is more counterintuitive than you might think!
Thanks to Scott W for inspiring this video based on his question! Hope we answered it :D
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Gear we used in this video:
Red Komodo - www.red.com/komodo
Canon EOS - R5 amzn.to/3YEESlX
Black Magic Pocket Cinema - amzn.to/3qDpLg0
Please note, we may earn a commission from purchases made via links on this page as an Amazon Associate.
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Check out more Syrp Lab:
syrplab.com/global/education/
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Chapters:
00:00 Intro
00:45 ISO Basics : Native, Dual, Invariance
01:37 Putting it to the Test
02:17 The Three Families of ISO
04:58 Why Noise Exists
05:48 Which ISO should you use?
06:59 Thanks Scott W! 
Кино
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Great video and follow up! Thanks for the hard work. Look forward to future topics!
I love this. First video where someone throughly explained ISO
The best ISO explanation video on youtube in my opinion.
This video is incredible. Watched so many other videos that seemed to dance around the details. Your experiment forward approach and following up with the actual science of it all just makes so much sense.
The production value is so high!
Thanks Leonard!
This is an incredible in-depth explanation of a sometimes slippery subject. Thank you!
I've watched a few videos on the topic of different ways ISO is handled from a hardware perspective on various cameras, and this is by far my favorite explication. Thank you for this!
Absolutely loved watching this! Packed with valuable information and great editing 🔥
Excellent job clarifying this. Basically the first answer i feel i can accept, cause the logic there and its clear you didn't just kind of figure it out and spit it out. So thank you for that!
This is by far the most accurate and 2nd most detailed (simply because it's shorter and has a different format) video on the subject on RUclips. Awesome stuff. Subbed!
I'd like to add that even though the EOS R5c shoots raw, it's not ISO invariant. I haven't worked with footage from other canon Cinema cameras so I'm not sure about those. I say that because it's a very common misconception (thanks mostly to Mr. Toneh) I see very often that shooting raw always stores ISO as metadata which just simply isn't true.
Thanks - glad you enjoyed it! Good note about the R5c in that it performs the same as the R5 that we tested - it really depends on if your camera is invariant and the raw codec for how you should shoot
I was watching and thinking to myself "Man these guys sound like they are from NZ!!!" Great quality channel guys!!!
haha that strong kiwi accent is unmissable ;) Stoked you enjoyed the video
beautifully made video, really enjoyed following along :) thanks!
Very clearly explained.
Thank you.
what a incredible video! just subscribed!!! thanks a lot!
I just stumbled to the best technical cinematography and filmmaking channel ever! it's like reading cinematography breakdown by blain brown, all over again haha. Keep up the good work fam!
Blimey what a video. Watched this while awake for Fajr, London way. I need to watch this over and and over. Newbie to your channel. Subscribed. To take this on further, show how to achieve the right exposure for all camera types, dual native iso... Wait, I think you described that...
Thanks for the explanation! Great vid
Just discoverd this channel. Awesome work!
videos like this make youtube what it is today
Worth noting that once you move into that second gain it cannot be undone in post like changing the iso meta data. And you will not get the same benefits as actually filming at the native iso if you change it to the native iso in post.
Depends on the camera, changing to native iso in post should be same as selecting native iso - but you are limited to either iso range in post, like you said.
Another fantastic video! 🙏
Thanks Alex! So stoked you enjoyed it
I love your editing! Keep it up
You are by far my favorite RUclips channel❤❤❤❤
Thanks Danial! We're honored to be your favorite 😄
Great video
very helpful video, I always asked myself exactly that!
Glad we could answer it for you!
Learned heaps - thanks
Thanks mum!
Great video going into some details of how ISO works that I haven’t seen on other videos around. One thing I’ve never been able to find out is if invariant cameras shooting raw actually can have two or more “native iso” circuits and bundle up the data into one raw file to increase DR and noise floor. Something we see happening in sound recorders that can capture a great range of dynamic range by using two or more amplifiers with different sensitivities.
Is Sony A7 iii a dual iso camera?
What an amazing video!
Thanks Donato!
I knew what ISO is and how it works but this video is very very informative but what I’m most curious about are those BRoll camera shots, how did you made them ? They’re fantastically beautiful 👏🏻
Hey Andy! We did a mix of backlighting with the Gemini 1x1s, used a Promist 1/8 filter and everything was sitting on the Genie II & Magic Carpet slider to give repeatable motorized moves. Glad you enjoyed the video!
Chefs kiss 🤌 insightful asf sir. Bravo 👏
Amazing test, Thanks for sharing I only whish there was the Lumix S1H added to this test lol!
My understanding that ISO for digital cameras is a tool to place the center of your Color Gamut (color, brightness, saturation) where you want in your cameras Dynamic Range. (If you see a cameras dynamic range chart, the 18% gray point shifts down with higher ISO, and skin tones being exposes 1 stop higher.) If you want your skin tones correct in the shot and a broader dark range, ISO 100. If broader highlights, higher ISO. (with the exception being Dual ISO) The same ISO for all conditions would make it difficult to color correct your shots in post process editing for saturation, brightness and varying noise levels. ISO used as a tool for noise control is like using driving speed to to time travel if your late.
sounds weird but…… I really like how the chalk and clothes are color co-ordinated lol
I really love the " Film science " episodes please keep making more and cover more areas and elements, you guys are making videos and explaining these concepts in very efficient way so everybody could understand I had never come across these types of informative and interesting videos about filmmaking across the internet so please making more and ( I'm gonna leave this comment in every episode of " film science " so you guys see it .
and yesss this is fucking interesting . 🙃
Ok but let's say on my pocket 4k I increased the ISO from 1250 to let's say 3200 to get a better exposure and my dynamic range just shifted more towards highlights giving me more noise on the shadows, how would you address that? And why is the second ISO range more noisy than the first one?
Good video , please explain , iso and the relationship to camera dynamic range please
That could be a great follow up!
This is a question I am curious about : why some cams treat ISO differently like 100 iso in camera isn't the same in other cameras...Is there any global standard for exposure in general?
Hey - great question! So from a brightness/sensitivity standpoint, all cameras should be pretty close - this is governed by the ISO standard here: www.iso.org/standard/62322.html but there will be minor differences between cameras.
The bigger difference will be in the amount of noise at ISO 100 as not all cameras have the same Native ISO and different sensors have different noise floors.
In terms of a global standard, we're pretty sure ISO fills this but we've seen companies like DJI start to use EI numbers instead (like here: www.dji.com/nz/inspire-3?site=brandsite&from=landing_page ) Fun addon is that in film, there used to be ASA and DIN standards too, all governing this same thing
@@SyrpLab thx and yeah I think that dji are trying to make there own standard as how big they are nowadays in drones
Hi. Loved your video. In the dual native iso cameras, does the dual native iso value only work for video, or they work for photos too. (You might ask what cinema camera in the world take stills too? The answer is simple R5c :)) )
This video is insane
I was veeery confused when I first heard about RED's ISO just being metadata that you can change later. I coulnd't wrap my head around it. I was wondering why can't you do that with RAW photos for example. You explained it really well because I knew of the increased voltage to the sensor but didn't know there were different methods.
Maybe somebody has already answered this but I am still wondering why Canon typically has a noticable increase in file size with higher ISO values?
Btw I came here from your IG reel that you also had up for a second in the video.
I have a question, are the dual base iso values have the same image quality or is the lower native number better than the higher one?
I use to use canon DSLR cameras for video pretty heavy years ago with the 5d3, 5d2, 7d, rebel series
The ISO on those cameras works by each interval of 100 being the base
Ie 100, 200, 400
These will yield the best dymamic range, but may have some slight noise in shadows
Then every 1/3rd step above that are intermediate ISO that are digitally brightened in camera
Ie 125, 250, 500
These will have a slight reduced dynamic range but because they are digitally brightened in camera they have significantly more noise, you want ro avoid these like the plague when shooting
Then every 1/3rd step above that are intermediate ISO that are digitally darkened in camera
Ie 160, 320, 640
These will have slightly reduced dynamic range but because they are digitally darkened in camera they will have significantly less noise
These are the best ISO settings to use
This is why ISO 1250 would have significantly better noise than ISO 500
Because 1250 was digitally darkened for better noise and 500 was digitally boosted
An easy visualization of this is looking at old 'canon 5d iso noise lens cap tests'
This is limited to canon DSLR cameras
Also this is one reason why it's useful to install magic lantern on canon cameras, typically rebel cameras dont allow you to use intermediate ISO away from the base, which means you cant accidentally use one that is digitally boosted but also you cant use the ones that are digitally darkened
Magic lantern allows you to select intermediate ISO on rebel cameras
Why would ISO 160 be better than ISO 200 if it has been digitally darkened as they technically would have the same amount of noise.
Another explanation might be ISO 100 as based ISO, ISO 160, 320...etc are analogue boosted ISO and the rest are digital.
@@s87343jim ISO 125 is ISO 100 but digitally brightened in camera
ISO 160 is ISO 200 but darkened
This results in better noise by darkening the image, lowering the shadows, lowering the noise
Again, I highly recommend looking at old 5d ISO lens cap tests for a visualization
It shows how the noise of ISO 500 (digitally boosted) is worse than ISO 1250 (digitally darkened)
Your explanation misses that 100, 200, 400... are analogue
125, 250, 500... are digitally boosted
160, 320, 640... are digitally darkened
can you explain more about using higher ISO helps create an even distribution of stops above and below middle grey? I've seen other people say this but it just sounds wrong based on my current understanding.
What about dynamic range and how iso effects it
That’s a great one! Definitely on our list for a future episode 😄
Interesting video, thanks! I'm shooting with the BMPCC 4K and have decided mostly to shoot at native ISO 400 to keep things simple and hopefully avoid noise. Great, but I often like to shoot wide open and isn't this ISO setting encouraging me to stop down to avoid overexposure in the highlights? For example, if I was shooting at ISO 100, I'd be able to open up the aperture more for the look I'm going for.
amazing video! does the same iso on two cameras with the same iso processing system (for example digital) produce the same image?
Hey Lorenzo! Good Q - there will be differences from camera model to camera model as the sensors themselves are different, even if they are both digital boosting. It all depends on the components and the cameras specific image processing pipeline. That's why resources like DPReview (rip...) are so useful for comparing different models
can you make a more detailed video on this topic?
Does this ISO explanation works for photography with the R5 ? Or it’s just in video
Do U have a info what is base ISO for A6700? 😅
So, if shooting 264/5, you are better off increasing ISO, so you can record a brighter picture for the codec?
definity he should need applause
👏👏
Hwy what about in a 360 camera can u do a vid on that like the insta360 x3 to get the best images and videos 😊
do someone know what type of iso the a6500 has ?
so, in a blackmagic 4k the iso doesn't matter as long as I choose the right signal for the available light?
Iso changes where your middle grey sits so it makes a big difference to how much detail vs noise is in the shadows and how many stops of highlights you have.
Hey Keneth! We probably wouldn't go so far as to say it doesn't matter at all, but depending on which band you pick, the change can be made in post. You're totally right though that you should choose the right band (100-1000 for higher light, 1250+ for lower light situations). Selecting the right band, and then exposing correctly to favor the lower ISO options within it, will help to capture the lowest noise image.
The note Mike is making about dynamic range is totally right but a little beyond the scope of what we covered in this video. By selecting a higher ISO, you shift where the exposure of the image sits, allowing you to expose for more detail/dynamic range in the bright or low part of the image (as demonstrated by this graph from Black Magic Design: www.blackmagicdesign.com/nz/products/blackmagicpocketcinemacamera). Changing your ISO within the band wont actually change the noise floor but it does impact how the dynamic range is portrayed so can help you in selecting your other values (like aperture, shutter speed or lighting) in order to expose how you intend. FilmMaker IQs video here covers it in the last chapter with a really nice demonstration on the BMPCC 4K :) ruclips.net/video/g8hHFt3ChZ8/видео.html
Thanks for helping explain Mike!
I thought most mirrorless cameras are isoless if shot in raw
Hey Sbinalla! We’ve heard this too & came across it in our research. From what we can tell, the R5 might be invariant/iso-less for photos but in our raw video, we saw clearly defined ISO steps. Our other mirrorless cameras like the Sony A7sIII shoot compressed LOG footage so in-camera ISO matters there too.
@@SyrpLab Blackmagic 100% are still affected by ISO choice, even in raw.
@@mikesouthworth Hey Mike! We answered your other comment below where you're totally right about how it impacts dynamic range. But just re: this, captured noise is the same across the band as the boosting is digital, but you see or perceive it more as that ISO is increased and the image brightness is brought up. We'll pop up our test images on the blog soon which shows the ISO invariance at each level :)
@@SyrpLab yep, you’re correct. And as you mentioned in the video, on BMD cameras you have to choose which dual iso is best because you can’t change between the 2 in raw.
How do I know if my cam is iso invariant or not?
Is the Sony a7iii a dual iso camera?
Not all raw codecs support iso control in post there is also an issue when it comes to dual native isos. In some cameras it matters what iso you were using in camera when it comes to what you will be able to do jn post. It is still better to always use the best iso for the shot regardless of the options you have in post.
Hey - you're correct about not all RAW formats recording ISO. It's always tricky with generalized advice so you should work out how the specific camera you are shooting on works. We did point this out with the R5 that, although recording RAW, the ISO selected does matter and we've also found this with our C200.
While you should use the best ISO for each shot, I think it's still a pretty important note for shootings coming from DSLRs up to Dual Native or Invariant systems that ISO doesn't work the same as we're used to.
Thanks for watching & sharing your knowledge!
If you didnt know
All Sony alpha cameras have dual native ISO
Not just the FX3/A7s3
The dual gain behavior has always been in alpha cameras
My a7s1 in Slog has a dual native of 3200/8000
My a7s2 in Slog has a dual native of 1600/10000
Thanks for the added info on Sonys!
How would Slog changes change the ISO base? Does that mean there are actually 4 analog circuit boosting points?
@@alexezorskymakes when changing ISO the camera is either in low gain or high gain
This can be observed by aiming the camera at a dark scene, attaching an external monitor and looking at either a waveform monitor to observe the black levels or using false color and watching the darks
As you incrementally increase the ISO you'll see the noise level gradually increase, at a certain point the noise floor will reset, this is the camera switching gain modes
This behavior can be observed on any Sony alpha camera, on any picture profile
The ISO in with the camera switches gains is not the same ISO for all picture profiles
This ISO value is also not the same across Sony alpha models
I've personally tested with an external monitor on the A7s1, a7s2, a6400, a6500, a7r, a7r2
My question is can you please write some code for the company that bought yours and smeared its reputation so I can update the firmware on my $3,500 mo co system that currently is collecting dust because you can’t even turn on any genies through any apps
What type is an iPhone?
Hey Rory! We're not 100% sure but the main factor to consider however is that the latest iPhone Pro doesnt shoot RAW video; only 10-bit HDR Prores so you're better to change ISO in camera
Pretty sure the R5 and R5C have the dual native ISO too!
Hey Rob! We don’t have an R5C to test currently but from our studio tests, the R5 definitely looks to be variant with multiple bands rather than just 2. This may be marketed as ‘dual native’ but, at least from what we’ve seen, appears to function a bit differently than the BMPCC and A7sIII
you titled it camera, not video camera, so I was misled, still, a nice talk
3:42 take it apart and see if that theory is true or not.
How dual native ISO works is not a secret; a dissertation describing the whole thing in detail is publicly available.
hey Riku - you're right, there's definitely information out there but what we couldn't find was a reputable whitepaper from either Blackmagic or Sony that accurately described the electronics of how it works. What we did find was a few solid guesses from blogs like SonyCine and FilmMakerIQ.
sonycine.com/articles/what-is-dual-base-iso-/
ruclips.net/video/g8hHFt3ChZ8/видео.html
If you have a link to one - we'd love to take a look.
All I know is that ISO stands for" Increasingly Shitty Outcome"!
Thats one way to remember it 😅
Raising iso DOES NOT make the camera more sensitive. It mearly amplifies signal coming off the sensor. The world is full of this sort of thing where anyone can jump on the internet and start mis informing people. 😢
Wasn't the presentation too technical?
I am a ASNT certified Level 3 in all disciplines (11), as an average non photography science average RUclips viewer, yet l could only glimpsed into the technical Part of your presentation only less than 5%.
a lot of information here is plain wrong