This has been killing me with the Fx6 and no one was talking about it. Not only did you help me understand was is happening and how to avoid it but you also did it in under 4mins!!! Liking, subscribing and looking forward to more content from you!
Came here with the same question because I just started using the FX6 and couldn't figure out why I was getting so much more noise than with my A7iii, and A7Sii
All of this is absolutely true and is now a major part of my method when exposing on the FX3 with SLog-3. I learned the hard way, shooting at 12,800 in low-light and not checking the exposure meter for when it went to -1 to -3. Doing what I could to get that number to +1 or +2 max then slightly underexposing in post, my 12,800 shots were so much cleaner with much richer colors, pretty much night and day.
Yes, it’s really night and day when you take care of a few things. I read „why is my camera so noisy“ all the time and felt I have to make a video about this.
Photon noise in cameras is actually very similar to an example of something you quite literally used - night vision. Actual military grade night vision has this effect, even much more higher spec'd night vision. We actually have a specification in data sheets we look for in this called "SNR" or "Signal to Noise Ratio". If you arent a night vision nerd like I am, you might actually be surprised to hear that even when it's EXTREMELY dark, night vision will struggle just like a camera would and you get....NOISE! Just look up some war footage that was shoot at night with a night vision device and youll see it. It's more present the darker the environment gets. Why? Because there isnt enough ambient light in the enviornment to send protons into the night vision tube and convert those protons into electrons. So what you end up seeing is the proton to electron conversion still happening inside the image intensifier tube...even though there is not enough protons. So you get more noise than you do signal. Making night vision isnt an exact science believe it or not and some tubes in the manufacturing process will actually have a higher signal to noise ratio (the top military companies that manufacture image intensifier tubes literally have no idea how to dial in specs. It either meets military spec, or its sold as a commercial tube for failing or trashed), thus you will see less noise in those darker environments - but you will still see it. If you put a black cap over night vision, you will still see a noise pattern. Very knowledgeable explanation on cameras and photon noise!
Hi and thank you for your comment! Yes I try to make my videos as short and informative as possible, I think nobody is interested in me cooking coffee. Only McKinnon can do this while still getting a lot of views 😀
In the end it's just important that more light actually hits the sensor. You can do this either by lighting the scene brighter or (if you use an ND filter) by turning the ND filter down and making the image brighter by doing so. What I would NOT do is to turn up the ISO in camera as this would introduce more noise, as you aready wrote. EXCEPT you use the second base ISO. What I did in my show at 2:38 was to go from BASE ISO of the FX6 (800) to the second base ISO (12.800) and use ND filters at this higher ISO to make it not too bright.
This video is straight to the point! the methods are good, but if you want to take a step more technical. When shooting at night use cine EI 400 or less for cleaner shadows, for bright scenes use a higher EI its a more accurate way of overexposing or under exposing
Great video, so clear and concise! My rule of thumb with Slog3 on the Fx3 is stay at Base as much as possible and if necessary lower Exposure Index (overexpose), but never increase Exposure Index (underexpose). Of course, this is not a set rule for everyone but it simplifies the process for me. There are very few times when I'd want to increase exposure index. It can work but if you don't know what you're doing you can really ruin your shot. I also try to stay at Base 800 as much as I can (like you mentioned) and I only go to Base 12800 if I've exhausted all other options to get Base 800 to be properly exposed (adding light, opening aperture). I am relatively new to CINE EI but I think I got the hang of it now
Hi! Yes I do exactly the same. I never had to raise the EI above the Iso value and I think it’s a good advice in most cases to keep it below. Also, shooting at 800 saves so much time in postproduction, I have to reduce noise in a lot of the shots I filmed with 12.800.
Hi Ronald, I've seen a few of your videos now and love your work. Thank you for explaining things so clearly and concisely. Photon shot noise is such an important concept to understand!
@2:39 you mention over exposing by 1 or 2 stops. Do you mean to actually add light to the shot to overexpose, or just increasing the base ISO so it overexposes?
You can achieve this by adding light, lowering the nd filter if you use one or just raise the aperture. The goal is that somehow more light hits the sensor
Not sure if I understand the question correctly. Even at 12.800 ISO you have to dial in your exposure with a grey card or waveform. I even have to use ND filters at 12.800 sometimes because the scene would be a bit too bright at 12.800. then I dial in the ND until I get an overexposure pf +1.0 stops. Alternatively you could add lights of course.
@@RonaldKasper Thanks for your reply. So if I understand correctly in this example at 2:20 (with the noise) you also have used a nd filter? And by over exposing it you changed the nd stops to get more light?
Thanks! Are you talking about what is shown on the screen at 1:49? I suggested the plugin „neat video“ here, although I switched to Davinci Resolve in the meanwhile where noise reduction can be made pretty easily in the studio version. So I didn’t mean that I made an own video about noise reduction.
thanks! Switched to what? Sony? I just thought it was the better camera when the A7siii came out, it hat 10 bit instead of 8 and now I live my FX6 that I use in combination. So at the moment, I‘m a Sony guy. Until the next best thing comes out from another brand 😂 And if you mean Davinci, yes I made a own video about it: ruclips.net/video/A54l_vQJJX4/видео.htmlsi=arKMWdI2KQ38rdVq
I just watched a video by Waqas Qazi who is a pro colourist and in it he argues that s cinetone is overall the better pick compared to slog 3, that s cinetone has far less noise in the shadows and takes less work to colour. He claimed that slog 3's 'only' advantage is dynamic range and for scenes that don't require it you're better off not using it. I wonder how much truth there is to that in practicality. Do you manually grade slog 3 or do you use a conversion lut workflow? Have you seen that video by Waqas? What do you think about it?
Hi! I‘ve watched Qazi‘s video as well and really the main points are for me: Slog3 gives you better dynamic range and the possibility for creative gradings. Dynamic range is why I bought my A7siii and FX6 and I would not want to use a color profile that reduces it. I shoot a lot outdoor and it’s pretty necessary to have good dynamic range here. But what I learned from Qazi‘s video is that Slog3 is much better than I thought, mostly because of it’s great noise level and the color accuracy. For situations where I don’t need the maximum dynamic range possible, I‘ll definitely try out S cinetone in my next project. To answer your question: I do not use Luts anymore since I use resolve. It has something much better and accurate than LUTs, and it’s called „Color Space Transform“. And from there on I grade slog3 manually like Qazi does as well.
Holy crap the difference between the Low and High Base ISO is big! I thought they would be the same but they definitely aren't. Thanks a lot for that, I will try to avoid High Base from now on
Great video! But I have a question. So when I want to have clean low light image I should overexpose the 12 800 ISO footage by one or two stop. Does that mean bringing more light to the scene or changing the ISO to 25 600 and then lowering in post production? Thank for the answer!
Hi! Definitely stay at 12.800 and bring in more light whenever possible. I wouldn’t raise the ISO to 25600, I think you even get better results when you expose normally at 12.800 and use a little bit of noise reduction in your editing software.
Wow! Thanks for the fast answer. I still have one more question. What would you do in a non-ideal light situation like wedding reception where there is no way to control the lights? Is it better to raise the ISO to overexpose let’s say 2 stops and introduce more grain in camera but then lower the exposure in post or is it better to stay at zero? Considering that you shoot in S-log 3. Thank you very much for the answer😊
in this case I would overexpose by one stop and bring it down a bit in post. The problem is that brightening dark footage in post will give you bad results when parts of the footage are in the noise floor. Which means the almost black areas. Lifting the signal up from there doesn’t work well. So to be on the safe side, film it one stop brighter.
Question! I read that the Sony ZVE1 and FX3 have the same sensor. I read that the base ISO for the ZVE1 is 640 and 12800. Since they have the same sensor, is the actual base ISO for the ZVE1 800? I’m new to videography and picked up the ZVE1 as my first “real” camera.
No, the base ISO depends a lot on the logic that is used to transform the sensor signal. This might be different in both cameras. So the base of the ZVE1 is 640, not 800.
I think it depends on how well you can deal with noisereduction in your editing software. If you know how to use it properly I think you get better looking results with this, at least you have more control about it. When I compare my A7siii footage that has built in noise reduction with my FX6 footage that has no noise reduction, I like the look of the one of the FX6 more.
Sooo, I got a bite confused in the part where you show the different shots in the dorm. You said if you use the 12.800 iso you overexpose by 1 or 2 stops and bring down the exposure in post. But where do you have the extra room to overexpose when you are already at 12.800? Means that in the noisy dorm shot you still had 1 or 2 stops of ND activated?
Hey man i know this is a bit late but I have a question. If you had the power to overexpose the noisy image of the higher base ISO, why didn’t you just use that to raise the exposure for the darker low ISO image?
Hi! I‘m not sure if I understand what you mean. If I had the amount of light to raise up the exposure that much, so that I didn’t have to use ISO 12.800 bit the lower ISO 640, of course that would be the better option. Bit between these two ISO values are more than 4 stops of light, so you would need a lot of light to brighten your whole scene like that. Especially if you’re outdoors.
Thanks a lot! No I have no course, I just make my RUclips videos at the moment. Next one coming soon. Maybe check out some of my other videos about Sony cameras if you’re interested.
Great video! that was my only worry about the fx30 if I would miss the 12800 of the fx3. I guess I could achieve almost the same look by cleaning up the noise in post.
Most of the time I don’t need iso 12800 and if I do, I need an nd filter because 12800 is really bright. So I guess you don’t need it in most situations
Thanks and how do I switch on and off the noise reduction on Fx3? Also, I don’t think I’m dealing with noise due to improper settings but what I have seen on my fx3 which I just got is that it gives me some noise on some colors/parts or my image? Any idea why? Like specifically if I try to make the blue sky pop then the blue has a lot of noise.
I'm not a 100 percent sure, but I think you can't switch noise reduction off completely on the FX3. Only on the FX6. Your noise problem in the highlights is strange. Do you manipulate the colors of the image a lot? And could it be that you use incorrect color- or luminance qualifiers for that? That way, some pixels could be ignored by the qualifier and if you turn your sky blue, the others remain like originally shot. Just an idea.
After shooting 12800 on the FX6 with a very sharp lens, I saw crazy noise and color artifacts and was highly disappointed. I made a decision never to shoot on the 2nd base ISO. It's 800 or I bring in light on a stand. Learnt the hard way. Wonder what they meant by the term "Low light Camera.".
On the Fx6 (or any other camera with a second base ISO) it’s important that you overexpose at least one stop at this higher ISO. That helps a lot, I do this quite often with the FX6. But you’re right, it’s not as clean as with 800.
@RonaldKasper How do you expose 1 stop higher on 12800 EI on the Fx6. I can't find the metering dB. I use external monitor and no no matter what, 12,800 has noise.
@@hwcentertainment I use cine EI for that. I lower the EI value to 6400 that gives me a darker image on the monitor. I add more light or open up the lens so that it looks good (on the darkened screen). So I‘m recording brighter than normal but viewing it already darkened (that’s what I would do in postproduction but it’s convenient when you already see the result on your camera monitor). I have a whole video for that process: ruclips.net/video/z7M8vV3o668/видео.html
That was very helpful thank you. Love how you did it so quickly. So to be clear only shoot 1 or 2 stops over when shooting at 12800 ISO and just leave as is when shooting at 800 ISO on the FX3? Thanks!
Sorry, I don’t know that at all. It could be that the base ISOs for photos are different than for video. Depends on the shooting mode and the used picture profile
Hello! I have no FX3 so I‘m not sure, but I think you can not on the Fx3. There’s only a setting for shooting photos (menu - shooting - image quality - high iso nr) but I think you can’t deactivate it completely in video mode on the FX3.
Do you have an FS7? Well I would say it really depends if you need to use the full dynamic range in your shot. Then I‘d stick to the base ISO. I‘ve made another video where I compared the results of the Cine Ei mode with the ones filmed in custom mode, for me it’s clear to use cine EI because the results filmed with base ISO were better in my tests.
No, here is a video about stops I made. You‘ll understand it after watching this, I promise: How F-STOP, ISO and ND-values work together ruclips.net/video/05W3LmbOjss/видео.html
Not necessarily by increasing the Iso, maybe by using a lower ND filter. I always stick to the native ISOs of a camera, which are 640 on A7siii (or 800 on the FX6) and 12.800. I do the rest with ND filters. Using high ISO values like 4000 could cause higher noise as well, that’s why I raise the Iso to 12.800 and use nd filters
On the A7SIII, if you have an image that is evenly exposed (shows +0.0 on multi-metering), but you need to overexpose by +2 stops for S-Log 3, would you bump up to something like 2,000 ISO? Or would you go straight to 12,800 ISO and use a variable ND filter?
You need lots of light because it's an APSC sensor. You will get best results using fast primes. People that use Blackmagic cameras and other holywood super 35 cameras almost always use lights. It's not FF
No I haven’t tested that camera yet. But since it’s apsc, you’ll get a bit more noise than on a full frame camera. That’s simply because more light hits the full frame sensor, but it’s not a big deal and you can avoid it by lighting your scene well.
@@RonaldKasper well I played with my FX30 today, 4K,30 also helps a lot instead of 4K,60 due to shutter speed being lower and more light in , also using prime 1.4F 15mm from Sony helps.
Based on these tips I believe the fx30 might be able to hold up in low light pretty well. Just need to work with it and expose correctly. What do you think?
Well the FX30 is an apsc camera, so has a much smaller sensor than the FX6, FX3 or Sony A7siii. I shot with it once and found that it‘s the worst out of these four in terms of low light. But it doesn’t mean its bad at all, compared to other cameras. You just need a bit more light than with full frame Sonys.
Sony has some great charts on how to use Cine EI. At base ISO you have 6 stops above. It's interesting the bit on using higher than base ISO to make things brighter than they are. I will test that.
I didn’t say to use an Iso higher than base iso, I meant to use the second base iso of 12.800. you can not even choose another iso than one of the base values in cine ei mode.
@@CatherineBellLife no problem. What I mean is you normally expose an 18% grey card at 44 ire. Overexposing means that you expose it for a higher level. Let’s say 70. if you use cine ei, you can switch the ei value from 800 to 200 (which is 2 stops under the default EI of 800) and still expose your 18% greycard at the 44% level. That’s very convenient because your workflow and exposure levels don’t change. But the camera records a much higher level, since it only „pretends“ to show the image darker. In reality, your dialed in value of 44% is recorded 2 stops brighter. And this helps a lot if you need clean shadows. Without cine ei you would have a very bright image on your camera and you don’t know if it will look good after you have brought down your exposure in your editing software to the normal level. But with cine ei you can see on your camera monitor, how the darkened endresult will look like.
I use an FX6 where you have the EI value to bring down the footage. If Ou want to do this on an FX3 or any other camera, you would have to download a specific lut that shows everything 2 stops darker or you create one on your own (easy with Davinci Resolve)
The second base ISO of 2500iso on the FX30 is great and pretty clean. But why not just add some light to gain a few stops on darker scenes especially if you’re shooting indoors? Shooting higher ISO’s and pretend that magically the image is going to look amazing it’s pretty unrealistic and therefore will give noise patterns. I feel like this higher ISO’s on Sony cinema line cameras help on certain scenarios but not all the time. Lighting is key obviously. The 12800 ISO on the FX6 is pretty wild but pretty noise on times. I’ll definitely prefer the 800 ISO on many scenarios. Cheers
Hi! I totally agree! I avoid 12.800 whenever I can and try to light my scene so that I can use 800 instead. But for scenarios where this is not possible (shooting outside, on rund and gun documentaries etc.) ISO 12.800 is nice to have.
No, S Cinetone is a different story. I talked about slog3 in this video. For S-Cinetone (and slog3 as well), the base ISOs depend on the camera you have. If you use a FX6 the S-Cinetone Lo/Hi values are 320 / 5000. With an FX3 the S-Sinetone Lo/Hi values are 100/2000. These values are listed in the graphic on this website: www.xdcam-user.com/2022/10/chart-of-sony-dual-iso-base-levels/
@@RonaldKasper Oh thank you so much seriously. So if I understand correctly, with my FX3, between 100 and 2000, no noise in the image, and beyond 2000, image noise is present. Is that correct ? Thanks by advance 😊😉
@@AnthonyLaibStudio not really. It means that you get the cleanest image with 100 and 2000. Any ISO value between (like 600) would be noisier than 100 and 2000 because it's not one of the base ISOs.
@@RonaldKasper I see. So 100 and 2000 for the best and other if the subject can't be catch with this ISO properly. I was in a cave last week, with natural light and 2000 ISO would have been too weak. Again, thanks a lot. I work with S Cinetone, I prefer it, and thanks to have take time for me. Now I know that I have to use 100 and 2000. Should be the same for A7sIII I think cause its the "same camera".
Im getting literally crazy with Slog3 on my Sony A7siii.. I try dual ISO 640 and 12800, using Zebras, over exposing by 1.7-2 stops, I’ve filmed a car garage, and the light was pretty good, but not enough for iso640, so I set my iso to 12.800, I followed 40 youtube videos and I still not figured out how to get rid of that noise.. even when I bring the shadows down in post the noise still there.. please help!
The second base Iso (12.800 on the A7siii) will always have more noise than the first base ISO. On any camera. I don’t know your exact settings but if there is a big amount of noise you have to use a denoiser to remove it. Like the built in one in Davinci Resolve Studio or paid tools like „Neat video“. But it would be interesting why you get this big amount of noise. Are there areas with very dark shadows in your image whereas the rest is lit well in this garage? And does the noise only appear there or is the image noisy in general?
Thank you for answering Ronald! The garage had a lot of light in some areas but In other areas was medium lights, but not enough for base iso 640, I’ve tried to take the nd filter out but the lights of the garage were blowing out, and when I closed the aperture the shadows were to dark and I couldnt find a right balance to over expose, I had to buy topaz because it was an important job and I need to save it at any cost, I set my zebras to +94 for the highlights (in this case the lights of the cabinets of the garage) but the dark grey cabinets that didnt have direct light were awful..
@@WildWorldTravelers Yes that’s a difficult shooting scenario. I’m happy to hear you solved the problem with Topaz Labs. In some cases I intentionally let the light sources blow out (because that’s what they are in real life as well) and only focus on the fact that the lit subject is exposed correctly. That might help a bit to save the darkest shadows and get a bit more exposure in them. Blown out highlights seem to be a no go for many filmmakers (at least in the grading tutorials you find on RUclips) but the fact is that many Hollywood films contain blown out highlights in lightsources, in windows, the direct sun and so on. So if that would have helped in your scene, it could have been an idea to try out.
@@RonaldKasper I will try to focus on the main target (darker parts) and let some lights blow up a little bit, but I hear that I dont have to read the metering (m.m), so the only I have to read the exposure is the zebras? That I know when they hit the +94 on highlights but how I measure the +1 +2 stops in the darker areas? Appreciate you man! New subscriber 100% 🙏🏻
Yes the metering of the camera isn’t very accurate, I would rely on zebras of the camera or (when you have an external monitor that offers this) check the waveform or false color tools of the monitor. Then you really know exactly which part of your image has which exposure level.
Awesome video! I knew most of it already (except the photon shot noise, that was interesting), but it’s really well presented and easy to understand. I own both an FX6 and FX3. I was a bit disappointed with the FX6 when I got it, because it seemed to be a LOT noisier than i expected from reviews and shots from other people. I only got the FX3 recently, and I’m blown away. Yes, it’s internal noise reduction, but I’m totally fine with that. ISO32000 in a pretty much pitch black outdoor settings looks equals to (if not better) than 12800 on the FX6 on a dimly lit stage. So: is there any way to match up the FX6 NR to give me close to identical results? Or is that simply not possible, because it was never intended to?
Hi Finn! Thanks for your comment! I actually think it is not possible to set something in the FX6 so that the noise reduction looks like the one from the FX3. The FX6 is simply not designed to process noise that heavily. I comepletely switched off noise reduction in the FX6 and I'm working with Davinci Resolve to get cleaner images if needed. I feel like I have more control over it here. And for some reason I like the post-processed image of the FX6 more than the one from the A7siii where the noise is automatically reduced in camera. When I work with Cine EI on the FX6 I always lower the EI-value by 2 stops when I shoot in darker environments, which gives me a pretty clean image anyway. You can watch my video about Cine EI if you're interested: ruclips.net/video/z7M8vV3o668/видео.html
Question: What I usually do is to expose as high as possible so that the highlights in the picture don't burn out yet. Im not thinking about how many stops exactly I'm overexposing. Is that the best way or why not to do this way? (using slog3 and Cine EI, and EI is same as ISO)
If there are highlights (like skies or lights) in the frame that are much brighter than the rest, I‘d say your method is fine. But if not, e.g. it’s a moody indoor scene I wouldn’t overexpose to the maximum because you would have to manipulate the image quite a lot in postproduction which I mostly find not that flattering.
GREAT discussion of Noise! I especially loved the Photon Shot Noise explanation... One question/thought- Do you really feel that a 3rd party program can do better noise reduction than Sony's own algorithms tuned for their sensors by their engineers??
Thanks Robert for your comment. Most high end cinema cameras don’t have built in noise reduction. Or they have at least the possibility to turn it off. Mirrorless cameras like my A7siii reduce the noise a lot and the result often looks overprocessed, like wrapped in plastic. The problem is that this look is baked in the image. When I film with the FX6 and use Davinci Resolve for noise reduction or Neat Video, you can dial in just the right amount of reduction. In a lot of cases an image with a bit of noise looks better than a totally flattened one.
Regarding Shot Noise (i.e. too little photons), do you mean too little photons relative to how sensitive the sensor is? Because if you overexpose, I would expect that more photons are simply showing up in the space?
Yes, you are right. The only thing you can do against photon shot noise is to make more photons hit the sensor and you can achieve this by using a faster lens or lighting up your scene.
😂 we‘ve all been there. 12.800 is necessary sometimes but I was really shocked how noisy some of my footage was when I reviewed it. This made me do some research and tests which this video is a result of.
@@RonaldKasper I meant internal level like how lots of mirrorless cameras have an internal level to make sure your images/videos are night and straight.
It depends on what you monitor. the second one was at 77% for a whitecard and I set my first one to 44% for a greycard (18% grey). These are values when you use the s709 LUT and monitor these LUT levels as well (so sdi/hdmi output must be set to „MLUT“)
You can deactivate the „High ISO noise reduction“ in the second base ISO. That’s in Menu - Shooting - Image quality - High ISO NR. But I think you can’t switch off noise reduction totally. I think switching off the High ISO NR only means that there is no additional NR applied when you shoot in the high ISO mode.
Hi! Well the goal is that more light hits the sensor. How can you do this? Either by adding more lights to the scene, or by raising to the higher base ISO (like I did it in my example). In this higher base ISO I used ND filters to dial in my exposure correctly to be 2 steps overexposed. If you don't have more light, already are in the higher ISO and it's still too dark, well then you're screwed ;-) I wouldn't decrease the shutter speed when you have moving objects in the scene.
In these cases I would try to overexpose at least one stop and bring it down in post to get cleaner shadows. And some noise is totally normal in the darks, you can not completely avoid it.
On my A7siii I always see the exposure level. I never have it on auto. I turn on spot metering mode and always have the number beside the MM-symbol on the display.
@@LargeCinematic yes correct in general it’s a good idea to overexpose in the dark. But especially with the high base iso of 12.800, not so much with the lower base iso, because that’s already very clean in the shadows.
Total noob here. Based on the example you shared, wouldn’t it make sense to overexpose consistently to avoid that shadow noise in all scenes? I’m using flexible ISO and exposing at 0 right now because I’m having such a difficult time getting proper exposure with Cine EI.
Hi! With ISO 800 I don’t overexpose in cine EI mode and I get clean results. Whenever I use ISO 12.800 I overexpose by one or even two stops. I‘ve made a whole video about the cine EI mode (it’s recommended at the end of the current video), maybe it helps you out a bit. Cheers!
There is a lot a miss information about Cine Ei. Cine EI is just an exposure tool, a lot like false color. If you don't want to guess how much to over expose use Cine EI. When you are previewing in Cine EI ISO 400, it is just like over exposing by 2 stops and lowering exposure after to clean the noise. Flexible ISO does the same but in camera.
Nice content man! Just one fact, quite important was wrong. You said that FX3 has a dual-base iso. That's not right. The Sony FX3 and FX6 don't have "Dual base ISO" but "Dual base sensitivity". That is why ISO 12800 is noisier. So what's the difference between the two? Well Dual Base ISO has an almost identical noise ratio and dynamic range between the two bases. While Dual Base Sensitivity does have a small increase in noise and a slight loss in dynamic range going from low to high. I just learned this myself so just wanted to pass the knowledge forward. :)
With the cine ei mode. Just use 12.800 ISO anf an EI value of 6.400 (overexposing 1 stop) or 3.200 (two stops). Just watch the video recommended at the end of the current video, this is an explanation of cine ei mode.
@@nagendrasunkara1859 of you shoot with the FX30 the rules are the same as shown in the video. Although a smaller sensor like the one on the Fx30 has slightly more noise than a full frame sensor like on the FX3 or FX6
Well a grainy end-result might look good but when it comes to color grading, you want a clean image first! otherwise you get weird artifacts in your grading process. Afterwards you add grain to give it a filmic touch.
@@RonaldKasper that always looks fake and overlayed. That’s why every large budget film uses the same company Livegrain to do their real-time grain emulation. The grain of celluloid film is manipulated during the DI, so it ebbs and flows with the timing being done. Similarly the noise pattern and structure of a cinema camera will be manipulated in post during the process. Adding it at the end simply does not give an organic result. To create depth within these mirrorless cameras you have to embed a noise pattern in the alpha channel and use a type of “olpf” such as a Tiffen Digital Diffusion filter. Otherwise the footage never truly looks high-end, it just looks 2 dimensional and plastic.
@@DanielTroyer That sounds plausible, but I think the grain you're talking is at a different level than the grain you get when you shoot with ISO 12.800 in the dark. What my video addresses is a grain that makes your footage basically unusable, not more pleasing. Therefore I think it's a good practice to overexpose in the dark anyways. By the way, I had a look at your channel, really nice work mate!
@@RonaldKasperdon’t listen to this idiot , I came to this video and learned a lot as I’m going from an fx30 to an fx3 and curious about its low light performance as I don’t even attempt it with my fx30 , so I’m glad to know that I always over expose even my fx30 iso 800 at around 1.7 so good to know I’ll be doing the same thing with fx3 at 12800 so thanks !
This has been killing me with the Fx6 and no one was talking about it. Not only did you help me understand was is happening and how to avoid it but you also did it in under 4mins!!! Liking, subscribing and looking forward to more content from you!
Thanks a lot for your kind comment, I appreciate it! And welcome to the channel, woohoo! 👍
Came here with the same question because I just started using the FX6 and couldn't figure out why I was getting so much more noise than with my A7iii, and A7Sii
You resolved in four minutes what most other reviewers never even addressed. My footage will benefit immediately!
Not just camera tutorial, but pure science class.
Thanks for your comment and welcome to the camera-science channel 😉👍
All of this is absolutely true and is now a major part of my method when exposing on the FX3 with SLog-3. I learned the hard way, shooting at 12,800 in low-light and not checking the exposure meter for when it went to -1 to -3. Doing what I could to get that number to +1 or +2 max then slightly underexposing in post, my 12,800 shots were so much cleaner with much richer colors, pretty much night and day.
Yes, it’s really night and day when you take care of a few things. I read „why is my camera so noisy“ all the time and felt I have to make a video about this.
It's about friggin time someone explained this well. I've been in the biz for over 20 years. Thanks.
Thanks a lot, I'm happy if people can find some answers in my videos!
Thank you. A true voice of skill and reason in a sea of RUclipsrs that just regurgitate nonsense from each other
Thanks you very much, it means a lot to me!
This has to be the MOST efficient and informative video on noise for fx3 and fx6
Thanks a lot William!
Photon noise in cameras is actually very similar to an example of something you quite literally used - night vision. Actual military grade night vision has this effect, even much more higher spec'd night vision. We actually have a specification in data sheets we look for in this called "SNR" or "Signal to Noise Ratio". If you arent a night vision nerd like I am, you might actually be surprised to hear that even when it's EXTREMELY dark, night vision will struggle just like a camera would and you get....NOISE! Just look up some war footage that was shoot at night with a night vision device and youll see it. It's more present the darker the environment gets. Why? Because there isnt enough ambient light in the enviornment to send protons into the night vision tube and convert those protons into electrons. So what you end up seeing is the proton to electron conversion still happening inside the image intensifier tube...even though there is not enough protons. So you get more noise than you do signal. Making night vision isnt an exact science believe it or not and some tubes in the manufacturing process will actually have a higher signal to noise ratio (the top military companies that manufacture image intensifier tubes literally have no idea how to dial in specs. It either meets military spec, or its sold as a commercial tube for failing or trashed), thus you will see less noise in those darker environments - but you will still see it. If you put a black cap over night vision, you will still see a noise pattern. Very knowledgeable explanation on cameras and photon noise!
Thanks for your detailed explanation!
Thankyou for making your videos! You're straight to the point and informative, no waffle like many other channels. I hope your channel blows up!
Hi and thank you for your comment! Yes I try to make my videos as short and informative as possible, I think nobody is interested in me cooking coffee. Only McKinnon can do this while still getting a lot of views 😀
I don't even do film but the video is sho short yet so informative that I still watched it and learned some interesting stuff
Thanks a lot for your comment, Jay! Happy you liked it!
2:38 do you over expose in camera or with external lighting? Wouldn't adding more stops of light in camera introduce more noise?
In the end it's just important that more light actually hits the sensor. You can do this either by lighting the scene brighter or (if you use an ND filter) by turning the ND filter down and making the image brighter by doing so. What I would NOT do is to turn up the ISO in camera as this would introduce more noise, as you aready wrote. EXCEPT you use the second base ISO. What I did in my show at 2:38 was to go from BASE ISO of the FX6 (800) to the second base ISO (12.800) and use ND filters at this higher ISO to make it not too bright.
This video is straight to the point! the methods are good, but if you want to take a step more technical. When shooting at night use cine EI 400 or less for cleaner shadows, for bright scenes use a higher EI its a more accurate way of overexposing or under exposing
This is the best video I've seen on slog3 noise, thank you.
Oh, thanks a lot! I‘m happy when my stuff is helpful.
Great video, so clear and concise! My rule of thumb with Slog3 on the Fx3 is stay at Base as much as possible and if necessary lower Exposure Index (overexpose), but never increase Exposure Index (underexpose). Of course, this is not a set rule for everyone but it simplifies the process for me. There are very few times when I'd want to increase exposure index. It can work but if you don't know what you're doing you can really ruin your shot.
I also try to stay at Base 800 as much as I can (like you mentioned) and I only go to Base 12800 if I've exhausted all other options to get Base 800 to be properly exposed (adding light, opening aperture).
I am relatively new to CINE EI but I think I got the hang of it now
Hi! Yes I do exactly the same. I never had to raise the EI above the Iso value and I think it’s a good advice in most cases to keep it below. Also, shooting at 800 saves so much time in postproduction, I have to reduce noise in a lot of the shots I filmed with 12.800.
Hi Ronald, I've seen a few of your videos now and love your work. Thank you for explaining things so clearly and concisely. Photon shot noise is such an important concept to understand!
Thanks Matt, I really appreciate your response!
I love not wasting time. You're my hero for getting right into it.
Thanks, I appreciate it!
What a incredible channel i just find. You're awesome bro! Thanks for these vids!
What amazing viewers I have! Thanks a lot for your comment, I really appreciate it!
Excellent video. It's my first time coming across a very clear explanation on the Dual Base ISO in the context of noise reduction.
Thank you very much, I‘m happy you liked it!
@2:39 you mention over exposing by 1 or 2 stops. Do you mean to actually add light to the shot to overexpose, or just increasing the base ISO so it overexposes?
You can achieve this by adding light, lowering the nd filter if you use one or just raise the aperture. The goal is that somehow more light hits the sensor
that's what I thought. Thank you for confirming.@@RonaldKasper
Finally someone explained it correctly - Thank You!
Great explanation! How do you overexpose it with one or two stops when you already use the 12800 iso? You mean with external lights or something else?
Not sure if I understand the question correctly. Even at 12.800 ISO you have to dial in your exposure with a grey card or waveform. I even have to use ND filters at 12.800 sometimes because the scene would be a bit too bright at 12.800. then I dial in the ND until I get an overexposure pf +1.0 stops. Alternatively you could add lights of course.
@@RonaldKasper Thanks for your reply. So if I understand correctly in this example at 2:20 (with the noise) you also have used a nd filter? And by over exposing it you changed the nd stops to get more light?
@@rogier_95 Yes exactly. Or you could reduce the Fstop of your lens (going from F2.0 to F1.4) to get more light at the sensor.
I had no idea about the photon noise, interesting info! Will read more about it, thanks!
Great Video! Sorry I couldn't find your post processing noise reduction workflow. Have you uploaded that yet?
Thanks! Are you talking about what is shown on the screen at 1:49? I suggested the plugin „neat video“ here, although I switched to Davinci Resolve in the meanwhile where noise reduction can be made pretty easily in the studio version. So I didn’t mean that I made an own video about noise reduction.
@@RonaldKasper Ohh I see, thank you for your suggestion! Also have you made any videos explaining why you switched? I'm very curious!
thanks! Switched to what? Sony? I just thought it was the better camera when the A7siii came out, it hat 10 bit instead of 8 and now I live my FX6 that I use in combination. So at the moment, I‘m a Sony guy. Until the next best thing comes out from another brand 😂
And if you mean Davinci, yes I made a own video about it: ruclips.net/video/A54l_vQJJX4/видео.htmlsi=arKMWdI2KQ38rdVq
I just watched a video by Waqas Qazi who is a pro colourist and in it he argues that s cinetone is overall the better pick compared to slog 3, that s cinetone has far less noise in the shadows and takes less work to colour. He claimed that slog 3's 'only' advantage is dynamic range and for scenes that don't require it you're better off not using it.
I wonder how much truth there is to that in practicality.
Do you manually grade slog 3 or do you use a conversion lut workflow? Have you seen that video by Waqas? What do you think about it?
Hi! I‘ve watched Qazi‘s video as well and really the main points are for me: Slog3 gives you better dynamic range and the possibility for creative gradings. Dynamic range is why I bought my A7siii and FX6 and I would not want to use a color profile that reduces it. I shoot a lot outdoor and it’s pretty necessary to have good dynamic range here.
But what I learned from Qazi‘s video is that Slog3 is much better than I thought, mostly because of it’s great noise level and the color accuracy. For situations where I don’t need the maximum dynamic range possible, I‘ll definitely try out S cinetone in my next project.
To answer your question: I do not use Luts anymore since I use resolve. It has something much better and accurate than LUTs, and it’s called „Color Space Transform“. And from there on I grade slog3 manually like Qazi does as well.
Holy crap the difference between the Low and High Base ISO is big! I thought they would be the same but they definitely aren't. Thanks a lot for that, I will try to avoid High Base from now on
You’re right, there are huge differences. But by using a lower EI value (in Cine EI Mode) you can get good and clean shots anyways.
@@RonaldKasper yeah true! P.S. Love your name!
@@kaspergaram yours is quite sexy as well 😉
Great video! But I have a question. So when I want to have clean low light image I should overexpose the 12 800 ISO footage by one or two stop. Does that mean bringing more light to the scene or changing the ISO to 25 600 and then lowering in post production? Thank for the answer!
Hi! Definitely stay at 12.800 and bring in more light whenever possible. I wouldn’t raise the ISO to 25600, I think you even get better results when you expose normally at 12.800 and use a little bit of noise reduction in your editing software.
Wow! Thanks for the fast answer. I still have one more question. What would you do in a non-ideal light situation like wedding reception where there is no way to control the lights? Is it better to raise the ISO to overexpose let’s say 2 stops and introduce more grain in camera but then lower the exposure in post or is it better to stay at zero? Considering that you shoot in S-log 3. Thank you very much for the answer😊
in this case I would overexpose by one stop and bring it down a bit in post. The problem is that brightening dark footage in post will give you bad results when parts of the footage are in the noise floor. Which means the almost black areas. Lifting the signal up from there doesn’t work well. So to be on the safe side, film it one stop brighter.
Question! I read that the Sony ZVE1 and FX3 have the same sensor. I read that the base ISO for the ZVE1 is 640 and 12800.
Since they have the same sensor, is the actual base ISO for the ZVE1 800?
I’m new to videography and picked up the ZVE1 as my first “real” camera.
No, the base ISO depends a lot on the logic that is used to transform the sensor signal. This might be different in both cameras. So the base of the ZVE1 is 640, not 800.
@@RonaldKasper ah, I gotcha! Thank you so much for the reply! ❤️
Subbed!
I'm using me Sony FX30 and I'm wondering do you think it's a good idea just to keep High ISO noise reduction off in camera?
I think it depends on how well you can deal with noisereduction in your editing software. If you know how to use it properly I think you get better looking results with this, at least you have more control about it. When I compare my A7siii footage that has built in noise reduction with my FX6 footage that has no noise reduction, I like the look of the one of the FX6 more.
That's a photo only setting. That's not related to video.
@@RonaldKasper "with this" this being on or off?
@@VeganLinked wow, that question was a long time ago 😉 by „with this“ I mean with noisereduction OFF in camera.
Sooo, I got a bite confused in the part where you show the different shots in the dorm. You said if you use the 12.800 iso you overexpose by 1 or 2 stops and bring down the exposure in post. But where do you have the extra room to overexpose when you are already at 12.800? Means that in the noisy dorm shot you still had 1 or 2 stops of ND activated?
Yes, exactly. Going from 800 to 12.800 made it necessary to use ND filters. Otherwise it would have been too bright for the mood I was going for.
@@RonaldKasper Thanks!
Hey man i know this is a bit late but I have a question. If you had the power to overexpose the noisy image of the higher base ISO, why didn’t you just use that to raise the exposure for the darker low ISO image?
Hi! I‘m not sure if I understand what you mean. If I had the amount of light to raise up the exposure that much, so that I didn’t have to use ISO 12.800 bit the lower ISO 640, of course that would be the better option. Bit between these two ISO values are more than 4 stops of light, so you would need a lot of light to brighten your whole scene like that. Especially if you’re outdoors.
Absolutely fantastic video!
Thanks so much, I‘m happy you enjoyed it!
And now I'm subbed, this is great and thank you for it!
That’s great, welcome to the channel! 👍
Dude you really helped me understand this completely . I really avoided shooting in EI but now I can't wait for the next shoot
Hi and thank you for your comment! Yes, definitely give cine ei a chance, I always shoot with it and love it!
Ronald ! I love what you are talking about. can't seem to find this content any where else... DO YOU HAVE A COURSE ???
Thanks a lot! No I have no course, I just make my RUclips videos at the moment. Next one coming soon. Maybe check out some of my other videos about Sony cameras if you’re interested.
Great video! that was my only worry about the fx30 if I would miss the 12800 of the fx3.
I guess I could achieve almost the same look by cleaning up the noise in post.
Most of the time I don’t need iso 12800 and if I do, I need an nd filter because 12800 is really bright. So I guess you don’t need it in most situations
NO high end cine camera has a base ISO of 12800 - 2500 (as on the FX 30) is already very high for cinema work...
Thanks and how do I switch on and off the noise reduction on Fx3?
Also, I don’t think I’m dealing with noise due to improper settings but what I have seen on my fx3 which I just got is that it gives me some noise on some colors/parts or my image? Any idea why? Like specifically if I try to make the blue sky pop then the blue has a lot of noise.
I'm not a 100 percent sure, but I think you can't switch noise reduction off completely on the FX3. Only on the FX6. Your noise problem in the highlights is strange. Do you manipulate the colors of the image a lot? And could it be that you use incorrect color- or luminance qualifiers for that? That way, some pixels could be ignored by the qualifier and if you turn your sky blue, the others remain like originally shot. Just an idea.
Very informative! Thank you :)
You are welcome, thanks for your comment!
After shooting 12800 on the FX6 with a very sharp lens, I saw crazy noise and color artifacts and was highly disappointed. I made a decision never to shoot on the 2nd base ISO. It's 800 or I bring in light on a stand. Learnt the hard way. Wonder what they meant by the term "Low light Camera.".
On the Fx6 (or any other camera with a second base ISO) it’s important that you overexpose at least one stop at this higher ISO. That helps a lot, I do this quite often with the FX6. But you’re right, it’s not as clean as with 800.
@RonaldKasper How do you expose 1 stop higher on 12800 EI on the Fx6. I can't find the metering dB. I use external monitor and no no matter what, 12,800 has noise.
@@hwcentertainment I use cine EI for that. I lower the EI value to 6400 that gives me a darker image on the monitor. I add more light or open up the lens so that it looks good (on the darkened screen). So I‘m recording brighter than normal but viewing it already darkened (that’s what I would do in postproduction but it’s convenient when you already see the result on your camera monitor). I have a whole video for that process:
ruclips.net/video/z7M8vV3o668/видео.html
That was very helpful thank you. Love how you did it so quickly. So to be clear only shoot 1 or 2 stops over when shooting at 12800 ISO and just leave as is when shooting at 800 ISO on the FX3? Thanks!
Yes, this is how I do it. 👍
Great thanks for the quick reply!@@RonaldKasper
Question. Does this apply to photos on fx3 as well? Or is this just for video? If not the paper the iso the cleaner for photo yeah?
Sorry, I don’t know that at all. It could be that the base ISOs for photos are different than for video. Depends on the shooting mode and the used picture profile
Banger video, thanks man!
You‘re welcome, thanks for your comment!
Have one question cant we use iso value between these two ?
You can. But these two are the base ISO values of the camera and therefore deliver the cleanest results (with the least amount of digital noise)
Hello, how can i turn off the noise reduction setting in my sony fx3
Hello! I have no FX3 so I‘m not sure, but I think you can not on the Fx3. There’s only a setting for shooting photos (menu - shooting - image quality - high iso nr) but I think you can’t deactivate it completely in video mode on the FX3.
@@RonaldKasper okay thanks!
So on custom mode if stay on base ISO would I get same dynamic range as cine EI??
Yes, exactly
Great video mate! Love the unique knowledge delivered. Subbed :)
Thanks a lot and welcome to the channel! Check out my other videos if you want, a lot of informative stuff in here 😉
my camera's bace Iso in S log 3 is Iso 2000, should I still film in s log 3?
Do you have an FS7? Well I would say it really depends if you need to use the full dynamic range in your shot. Then I‘d stick to the base ISO. I‘ve made another video where I compared the results of the Cine Ei mode with the ones filmed in custom mode, for me it’s clear to use cine EI because the results filmed with base ISO were better in my tests.
@@RonaldKasper I have the fs5 mk2
What does 2 stops mean ? Like if iso 800 I should bring it to 1250?
No, here is a video about stops I made. You‘ll understand it after watching this, I promise:
How F-STOP, ISO and ND-values work together
ruclips.net/video/05W3LmbOjss/видео.html
Thank you ronald, This helped me uderstand my FX3 a lot better
I‘m glad it helped, thanks a lot for your comment!
So you’re saying it’s ok to over expose by 2 stops by increasing the iso so that you can get cleaner shadows by bringing it down the exposure in post?
Not necessarily by increasing the Iso, maybe by using a lower ND filter. I always stick to the native ISOs of a camera, which are 640 on A7siii (or 800 on the FX6) and 12.800. I do the rest with ND filters. Using high ISO values like 4000 could cause higher noise as well, that’s why I raise the Iso to 12.800 and use nd filters
On the A7SIII, if you have an image that is evenly exposed (shows +0.0 on multi-metering), but you need to overexpose by +2 stops for S-Log 3, would you bump up to something like 2,000 ISO? Or would you go straight to 12,800 ISO and use a variable ND filter?
Actually I avoid everything above 1000 ISO when it’s a quite dark environment. Because it’s getting quite noisy. In these cases I go up to 12.800
@@RonaldKasper Got it, thank you!
Have you tried the FX30? It can get noisy in low light as well. Wondering if it'll work for it.
You need lots of light because it's an APSC sensor. You will get best results using fast primes. People that use Blackmagic cameras and other holywood super 35 cameras almost always use lights. It's not FF
@@nyambe Very true
No I haven’t tested that camera yet. But since it’s apsc, you’ll get a bit more noise than on a full frame camera. That’s simply because more light hits the full frame sensor, but it’s not a big deal and you can avoid it by lighting your scene well.
@@RonaldKasper well I played with my FX30 today, 4K,30 also helps a lot instead of 4K,60 due to shutter speed being lower and more light in , also using prime 1.4F 15mm from Sony helps.
@@g.king. Yes, all that brings more light to the sensor helps.
Based on these tips I believe the fx30 might be able to hold up in low light pretty well. Just need to work with it and expose correctly. What do you think?
Well the FX30 is an apsc camera, so has a much smaller sensor than the FX6, FX3 or Sony A7siii. I shot with it once and found that it‘s the worst out of these four in terms of low light. But it doesn’t mean its bad at all, compared to other cameras. You just need a bit more light than with full frame Sonys.
isn't the base iso in Flexible iso 640, not 800? i thought that was changed in the 2nd firmware update
That depends on the camera. On the A7siii it’s 640, on the Fx6 it’s 800
Sony has some great charts on how to use Cine EI. At base ISO you have 6 stops above. It's interesting the bit on using higher than base ISO to make things brighter than they are. I will test that.
I didn’t say to use an Iso higher than base iso, I meant to use the second base iso of 12.800. you can not even choose another iso than one of the base values in cine ei mode.
@@RonaldKasper what do you mean by over expose 2 stops over your base ISO? Is that EI? Sorry I am a novice but trying to learn.
@@CatherineBellLife no problem. What I mean is you normally expose an 18% grey card at 44 ire. Overexposing means that you expose it for a higher level. Let’s say 70. if you use cine ei, you can switch the ei value from 800 to 200 (which is 2 stops under the default EI of 800) and still expose your 18% greycard at the 44% level. That’s very convenient because your workflow and exposure levels don’t change. But the camera records a much higher level, since it only „pretends“ to show the image darker. In reality, your dialed in value of 44% is recorded 2 stops brighter. And this helps a lot if you need clean shadows. Without cine ei you would have a very bright image on your camera and you don’t know if it will look good after you have brought down your exposure in your editing software to the normal level. But with cine ei you can see on your camera monitor, how the darkened endresult will look like.
I dont get it, don't CineEI and Custom Mode have different base ISO (800-12800 vs 320-5000)?
Maybe watch this video to get an answer: Sony CINE EI vs CUSTOM Mode - Which one to use?
ruclips.net/video/0i0I7IcSosg/видео.html
If you're overexposing at 12800 ISO, what LUT do you use on the monitor to bring it back down?
I use an FX6 where you have the EI value to bring down the footage. If Ou want to do this on an FX3 or any other camera, you would have to download a specific lut that shows everything 2 stops darker or you create one on your own (easy with Davinci Resolve)
The second base ISO of 2500iso on the FX30 is great and pretty clean. But why not just add some light to gain a few stops on darker scenes especially if you’re shooting indoors? Shooting higher ISO’s and pretend that magically the image is going to look amazing it’s pretty unrealistic and therefore will give noise patterns. I feel like this higher ISO’s on Sony cinema line cameras help on certain scenarios but not all the time. Lighting is key obviously. The 12800 ISO on the FX6 is pretty wild but pretty noise on times. I’ll definitely prefer the 800 ISO on many scenarios.
Cheers
Hi! I totally agree! I avoid 12.800 whenever I can and try to light my scene so that I can use 800 instead. But for scenarios where this is not possible (shooting outside, on rund and gun documentaries etc.) ISO 12.800 is nice to have.
@ yep it’s definitely handy to have that option, great review👌
thanks!
Thanks a lot seriously.
So, for PP11 S Cinetone, base ISO are 800 and 12 800 ?
Thank a lot.
No, S Cinetone is a different story. I talked about slog3 in this video. For S-Cinetone (and slog3 as well), the base ISOs depend on the camera you have. If you use a FX6 the S-Cinetone Lo/Hi values are 320 / 5000. With an FX3 the S-Sinetone Lo/Hi values are 100/2000. These values are listed in the graphic on this website: www.xdcam-user.com/2022/10/chart-of-sony-dual-iso-base-levels/
@@RonaldKasper Oh thank you so much seriously.
So if I understand correctly, with my FX3, between 100 and 2000, no noise in the image, and beyond 2000, image noise is present. Is that correct ?
Thanks by advance 😊😉
@@AnthonyLaibStudio not really. It means that you get the cleanest image with 100 and 2000. Any ISO value between (like 600) would be noisier than 100 and 2000 because it's not one of the base ISOs.
@@RonaldKasper I see.
So 100 and 2000 for the best and other if the subject can't be catch with this ISO properly.
I was in a cave last week, with natural light and 2000 ISO would have been too weak.
Again, thanks a lot.
I work with S Cinetone, I prefer it, and thanks to have take time for me.
Now I know that I have to use 100 and 2000.
Should be the same for A7sIII I think cause its the "same camera".
Im getting literally crazy with Slog3 on my Sony A7siii.. I try dual ISO 640 and 12800, using Zebras, over exposing by 1.7-2 stops, I’ve filmed a car garage, and the light was pretty good, but not enough for iso640, so I set my iso to 12.800, I followed 40 youtube videos and I still not figured out how to get rid of that noise.. even when I bring the shadows down in post the noise still there.. please help!
The second base Iso (12.800 on the A7siii) will always have more noise than the first base ISO. On any camera. I don’t know your exact settings but if there is a big amount of noise you have to use a denoiser to remove it. Like the built in one in Davinci Resolve Studio or paid tools like „Neat video“. But it would be interesting why you get this big amount of noise. Are there areas with very dark shadows in your image whereas the rest is lit well in this garage? And does the noise only appear there or is the image noisy in general?
Thank you for answering Ronald! The garage had a lot of light in some areas but In other areas was medium lights, but not enough for base iso 640, I’ve tried to take the nd filter out but the lights of the garage were blowing out, and when I closed the aperture the shadows were to dark and I couldnt find a right balance to over expose, I had to buy topaz because it was an important job and I need to save it at any cost, I set my zebras to +94 for the highlights (in this case the lights of the cabinets of the garage) but the dark grey cabinets that didnt have direct light were awful..
@@WildWorldTravelers Yes that’s a difficult shooting scenario. I’m happy to hear you solved the problem with Topaz Labs. In some cases I intentionally let the light sources blow out (because that’s what they are in real life as well) and only focus on the fact that the lit subject is exposed correctly. That might help a bit to save the darkest shadows and get a bit more exposure in them. Blown out highlights seem to be a no go for many filmmakers (at least in the grading tutorials you find on RUclips) but the fact is that many Hollywood films contain blown out highlights in lightsources, in windows, the direct sun and so on. So if that would have helped in your scene, it could have been an idea to try out.
@@RonaldKasper I will try to focus on the main target (darker parts) and let some lights blow up a little bit, but I hear that I dont have to read the metering (m.m), so the only I have to read the exposure is the zebras? That I know when they hit the +94 on highlights but how I measure the +1 +2 stops in the darker areas? Appreciate you man! New subscriber 100% 🙏🏻
Yes the metering of the camera isn’t very accurate, I would rely on zebras of the camera or (when you have an external monitor that offers this) check the waveform or false color tools of the monitor. Then you really know exactly which part of your image has which exposure level.
Amazing explanation, you have my sub🙌
That‘s great, welcome to the channel!
Awesome video! I knew most of it already (except the photon shot noise, that was interesting), but it’s really well presented and easy to understand. I own both an FX6 and FX3.
I was a bit disappointed with the FX6 when I got it, because it seemed to be a LOT noisier than i expected from reviews and shots from other people. I only got the FX3 recently, and I’m blown away. Yes, it’s internal noise reduction, but I’m totally fine with that. ISO32000 in a pretty much pitch black outdoor settings looks equals to (if not better) than 12800 on the FX6 on a dimly lit stage.
So: is there any way to match up the FX6 NR to give me close to identical results? Or is that simply not possible, because it was never intended to?
Hi Finn! Thanks for your comment! I actually think it is not possible to set something in the FX6 so that the noise reduction looks like the one from the FX3. The FX6 is simply not designed to process noise that heavily. I comepletely switched off noise reduction in the FX6 and I'm working with Davinci Resolve to get cleaner images if needed. I feel like I have more control over it here. And for some reason I like the post-processed image of the FX6 more than the one from the A7siii where the noise is automatically reduced in camera.
When I work with Cine EI on the FX6 I always lower the EI-value by 2 stops when I shoot in darker environments, which gives me a pretty clean image anyway. You can watch my video about Cine EI if you're interested: ruclips.net/video/z7M8vV3o668/видео.html
Question: What I usually do is to expose as high as possible so that the highlights in the picture don't burn out yet. Im not thinking about how many stops exactly I'm overexposing. Is that the best way or why not to do this way? (using slog3 and Cine EI, and EI is same as ISO)
If there are highlights (like skies or lights) in the frame that are much brighter than the rest, I‘d say your method is fine. But if not, e.g. it’s a moody indoor scene I wouldn’t overexpose to the maximum because you would have to manipulate the image quite a lot in postproduction which I mostly find not that flattering.
@@RonaldKasper Thanks for answering quickly! And yes, I see.
GREAT discussion of Noise! I especially loved the Photon Shot Noise explanation... One question/thought- Do you really feel that a 3rd party program can do better noise reduction than Sony's own algorithms tuned for their sensors by their engineers??
Thanks Robert for your comment. Most high end cinema cameras don’t have built in noise reduction. Or they have at least the possibility to turn it off. Mirrorless cameras like my A7siii reduce the noise a lot and the result often looks overprocessed, like wrapped in plastic. The problem is that this look is baked in the image. When I film with the FX6 and use Davinci Resolve for noise reduction or Neat Video, you can dial in just the right amount of reduction. In a lot of cases an image with a bit of noise looks better than a totally flattened one.
Hello, what are your settings to denoise on Davinci resolve the 12800 shots please ? Thank you.
Hallo Ronald, gutes Video. Sprich: lieber ISO 800 nutzen und mit nem ND Filter die Belichtung runter, statt ISO 400 usw.?
Ja, so ist es! Wenn möglich immer in den base ISOs bleiben und den Rest mit Beleuchtung oder ND filtern einrichten.
Regarding Shot Noise (i.e. too little photons), do you mean too little photons relative to how sensitive the sensor is? Because if you overexpose, I would expect that more photons are simply showing up in the space?
Yes, you are right. The only thing you can do against photon shot noise is to make more photons hit the sensor and you can achieve this by using a faster lens or lighting up your scene.
Subbed. Thanks!
Great video. Thank you.
You‘re welcome!
short and to the point.
Thanks mate!
Really useful info! I wish I watched this before I just shot a whole event at 12800 lol. It was dark and I didn't have control of the lighting.
😂 we‘ve all been there. 12.800 is necessary sometimes but I was really shocked how noisy some of my footage was when I reviewed it. This made me do some research and tests which this video is a result of.
Great informative video Ronald 👍🏻 wieder was gelernt 😅 Danke Dir 😉 beste filmerische Grüße aus germany
Super Sache, danke für dein Kommentar und schöne Grüße zurück nach 🇩🇪 ! 👍
Do you know if there is an electronic level built into the FX6? or do i need to go for an external level?
What exactly do you mean with „Level“?
@@RonaldKasper I meant internal level like how lots of mirrorless cameras have an internal level to make sure your images/videos are night and straight.
@@AlbertEHo sorry, I‘ve never come across a setting like this.
@@AlbertEHo The FX6 monitor does have a built in "horizon" level. Bottom of the screen.
@@bwest6275 thank you :)
Damn this was a great video
Thanks a lot!!
Nice video very interesting
Thanks for your comment!
Superb content!
Thanks a lot! Welcome to the channel!
What zebras do you set for 1 & 2 ? I've heard 61 (skin) & 81 (whites)
It depends on what you monitor. the second one was at 77% for a whitecard and I set my first one to 44% for a greycard (18% grey). These are values when you use the s709 LUT and monitor these LUT levels as well (so sdi/hdmi output must be set to „MLUT“)
Hi, can I switch off the noise reduction in the FX3?
You can deactivate the „High ISO noise reduction“ in the second base ISO. That’s in Menu - Shooting - Image quality - High ISO NR. But I think you can’t switch off noise reduction totally. I think switching off the High ISO NR only means that there is no additional NR applied when you shoot in the high ISO mode.
at 2:42.. "we need to over expose by 2 stops".. ok. How? Increase aperture? Decrease shutter speed? where are those 2 stops coming from?
Hi! Well the goal is that more light hits the sensor. How can you do this? Either by adding more lights to the scene, or by raising to the higher base ISO (like I did it in my example). In this higher base ISO I used ND filters to dial in my exposure correctly to be 2 steps overexposed.
If you don't have more light, already are in the higher ISO and it's still too dark, well then you're screwed ;-) I wouldn't decrease the shutter speed when you have moving objects in the scene.
I’m still experiencing noise in my shadows in my footage at base 800 iso during outside scenes. Not sure what’s going on.
In these cases I would try to overexpose at least one stop and bring it down in post to get cleaner shadows. And some noise is totally normal in the darks, you can not completely avoid it.
After this video I actually did that and was experiencing wonderful results in post! Thank you for your response!@@RonaldKasper
what an informetive gem
Thanks!
Informative
When iso is set to manual and you try to over expose your image it states only when iso is on auto (a7sIII)
On my A7siii I always see the exposure level. I never have it on auto. I turn on spot metering mode and always have the number beside the MM-symbol on the display.
Are you talking about filming in 12800 then overexposing 2 stops? Or 800 then over exposing in 2 stops
I only overexpose with 12.800 iso because 800 looks already very clean, even in dark situations
@@RonaldKasper I believe you said to get those shadows and lighting without the noise of 12,800 you would over expose with your F stops correct?
@@LargeCinematic yes correct in general it’s a good idea to overexpose in the dark. But especially with the high base iso of 12.800, not so much with the lower base iso, because that’s already very clean in the shadows.
@@RonaldKasper and this is in S-Log3? Sorry, thank you!
@@LargeCinematic hi! Yes, these iso values are for a slog3 workflow
Thank You!! Watching you video made me have a "OHHH!!!! DUH". moment thanks very informational
Thanks, I‘m happy you liked it! 👍 Welcome to the channel, I have some other informative videos you might be interested in.
Wow thanks your videos and chanal
a7siii has no internal nr for 12800 on slog3😊
Of course it has. It applies a lot of internal NR at that ISO automatically
@@RonaldKasper no
@@idkanymore3382 of course
Total noob here. Based on the example you shared, wouldn’t it make sense to overexpose consistently to avoid that shadow noise in all scenes? I’m using flexible ISO and exposing at 0 right now because I’m having such a difficult time getting proper exposure with Cine EI.
Hi! With ISO 800 I don’t overexpose in cine EI mode and I get clean results. Whenever I use ISO 12.800 I overexpose by one or even two stops. I‘ve made a whole video about the cine EI mode (it’s recommended at the end of the current video), maybe it helps you out a bit. Cheers!
There is a lot a miss information about Cine Ei. Cine EI is just an exposure tool, a lot like false color. If you don't want to guess how much to over expose use Cine EI. When you are previewing in Cine EI ISO 400, it is just like over exposing by 2 stops and lowering exposure after to clean the noise. Flexible ISO does the same but in camera.
@@nyambe Hi! Yes I know that and I explain the correct usage of cone ei in this video:
ruclips.net/video/z7M8vV3o668/видео.html
Nice content man! Just one fact, quite important was wrong. You said that FX3 has a dual-base iso. That's not right. The Sony FX3 and FX6 don't have "Dual base ISO" but "Dual base sensitivity". That is why ISO 12800 is noisier. So what's the difference between the two? Well Dual Base ISO has an almost identical noise ratio and dynamic range between the two bases. While Dual Base Sensitivity does have a small increase in noise and a slight loss in dynamic range going from low to high. I just learned this myself so just wanted to pass the knowledge forward. :)
how do u over expose by 1 -2 stops
With the cine ei mode. Just use 12.800 ISO anf an EI value of 6.400 (overexposing 1 stop) or 3.200 (two stops).
Just watch the video recommended at the end of the current video, this is an explanation of cine ei mode.
@@RonaldKasper ok thank you, been having troubles with noise in the bg at both iso
i prefer to record outside in the woods when its darkest it is cleaner shot later
Fx 30
What about it?
Sir ...noise came when iam shooting
Output footage produce noise
@@nagendrasunkara1859 of you shoot with the FX30 the rules are the same as shown in the video. Although a smaller sensor like the one on the Fx30 has slightly more noise than a full frame sensor like on the FX3 or FX6
I Subscribe For Great VDO!!!
Thanks and welcome to the channel!
It's funny because these cameras look so much better when they have some noise going on. They look like cheap plastic at their cleanest.
Well a grainy end-result might look good but when it comes to color grading, you want a clean image first! otherwise you get weird artifacts in your grading process. Afterwards you add grain to give it a filmic touch.
@@RonaldKasper that always looks fake and overlayed. That’s why every large budget film uses the same company Livegrain to do their real-time grain emulation. The grain of celluloid film is manipulated during the DI, so it ebbs and flows with the timing being done. Similarly the noise pattern and structure of a cinema camera will be manipulated in post during the process. Adding it at the end simply does not give an organic result. To create depth within these mirrorless cameras you have to embed a noise pattern in the alpha channel and use a type of “olpf” such as a Tiffen Digital Diffusion filter. Otherwise the footage never truly looks high-end, it just looks 2 dimensional and plastic.
@@DanielTroyer That sounds plausible, but I think the grain you're talking is at a different level than the grain you get when you shoot with ISO 12.800 in the dark. What my video addresses is a grain that makes your footage basically unusable, not more pleasing. Therefore I think it's a good practice to overexpose in the dark anyways. By the way, I had a look at your channel, really nice work mate!
YOU HAVE NOT SAID ANYTHING NEW BRO.
Dude, don’t watch my videos please! YOU ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHING BRO.
@@RonaldKasperdon’t listen to this idiot , I came to this video and learned a lot as I’m going from an fx30 to an fx3 and curious about its low light performance as I don’t even attempt it with my fx30 , so I’m glad to know that I always over expose even my fx30 iso 800 at around 1.7 so good to know I’ll be doing the same thing with fx3 at 12800 so thanks !
@@Tonellacam Thanks for your comment! And don't worry, I don't care about haters. ;-)
I get a lot of noise with higher EI number is that normal?
Yes it is. That’s why you have to overexpose by one stop and bring the footage down in post. That way you reduce the noise.