1829Tbis Artillery Musketoon
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- Опубликовано: 18 ноя 2024
- The advent of the percussion era and developments in gun carriages brings about the design of a new short handy musketoon for French artillery crews. Issued from 1829 onwards, initially as a smoothbore flintlock, the musketoon evolves through the final stages of muzzleloading technology.
LEGAL NOTE: Shooting done in December 2020, prior to 50m range closure.
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I'd be curious to see Chap doing a mad minute with this musketoon. It looks like a quite nice little carbine.
I love that this looks exactly like the 1822 pistol but l o o o n g
Yeah, it served just as long too!
That long bayonet makes a very nice poker for the camp fire based on one the discoloration marks I see on a couple of my bayonets!
Do I watch it now or when it is meant to come out presumably next week? Just watch it twice I think
Edit: time to watch it a second time!
Always great to see the Chap with a nice smoke pole!
That was good. I had never heard of the pillar breech before.
I'm jealous of your workshop!
It's amazing how they didn't scrap old weapons, they just made them new again. Thank goodness they did the same with a lot of the old buildings in Europe.
They almost never worked as intended. And where better off completely replacing the entire weapon.
@@mmartinisgreat back in the era of the muzzleloader, it was a very sensible idea and for the most part was gradual improvements on the starting weapon (better ignition system, more precise, ease of maintenance), the issues started to come with the cartridge conversions, tho it was mostly because in the end it was costing as much or more than building new guns.
yo really don't see much trouble with weapon conversions until the magazine rifle conversions, which almost universally weren't adopted (for good reasons) in favour of a new rifle built from the ground up
@@mmartinisgreat The King of France would love to hear your ideas about how to go about paying for about a million new weapons every ten or twenty years in addition to paying for the tooling when those new weapons don't make use of existing parts. France was rich, but even it had to balance the budget once in a while to keep the creditors happy.
For example, Chassepot cost over 113,000,000 francs to adopt in 1867, and that didn't even result in the army completely reequipping with them (see Wawro, the Franco-Prussian War). This was when 1,300 francs was considered a decent year's wages for a typical French worker.
Conversions are not ideal, true, but even if they only are good for second or third-line service, that still means you are arming your auxiliary troops without using up your best weapons, and that means those conversions are doing good, if not particularly prestigious, work.
@@genericpersonx333 I'm not reading that.
@@mmartinisgreat Fair enough, but I will observe that it does have some great information regarding French arms and armed forces of the 19th century, which you may find interesting if you liked the video. Also a bit less exhausting a read than the official histories of France and Germany that make native-speakers go cross-eyed after the first few pages.
I really enjoy all the black powder content. Some of my favorite stuff to watch on the RUclipss!
I always come to the channel to see the most modern firearms. 😉😉😉
Judging by the tools you use for making cartridges, I see you've been putting the lathe to good use!
Indeed I have 😊
Looks like fun.
Hazzar hazzar nice to see this getting shot
Excellent informative video
This got my blackpowder itch itching hope the reneactment events get started soon stay safe stay well and all the best from Scotland 🏴
Thank you for this young sir. The infantry equivalents not only went through the percussioning and rifling, but many took part in the 1870 War with the Tabatière shoe or Samain bolt action breechloading conversions and of these many went on to be smooth bored (or rebarrelled) as 12 bore shotguns by the Belgians and sold in the USA as ‘Zulu’ shotguns.
Really enjoyed this eventhough I'm not that much into ancient rifles. Good information and a passionate story teller, congrats
Nice presentation.
That's a handy little carbine.
Delightful vid, thanks for explaining the history of that firearm and for shooting it
Thanks for the history lesson and I love your origami skills.
Excellent, bought a very rusty barrel in Texas; turns out this is what it goes to. I understand these were used by the Southern States during the Civil war
Looking for Spares and parts
I would be surprised to see them used in the ACW. They were still current issue arms for French artillery at the time.
@@thebotrchap The T-bis were undoubtedly used in Mexico with French troops fighting in the 1860's
The other pieces at the sale were all of the type used in the ACW. The seller thought a M1841 Mississippi rifle was a old shotgun... To be fair both were very rusted
@@samp5659 Well yes, it was current issue in the Mexico campaign too. It was eventually replaced by the Chassepot artillery musketoon which actually didn’t happen until after the 1870/71 war as initial production was focused exclusively on infantry rifles.
That's some bore, great idea using the same size projectile in the artillery piece and the rifle.
Thanks for sharing your video 👍
Nice just got my 1st muzzle loading long arm today
Good luck with it and have fun!
Fascinating. Thank you very much.
Lovely arms Chap!
Well done on the review Chappy, and I also admire your love of everything French, but after explaining the loading sequence I do feel this is the silk purse in the old saying.
I think we can all agree that once on a two way range, the stressed out artilleryman would most likely say “merde” to the official sequence and dump everything down the barrel.
thank you
I see the the Lupo WinterHat and I upvote!
Rest of the content is great too
I really enjoy things which are clever design, simple, efficient, looking good, and black powder firearms are just this. This musketoon looks really fine and still is very efficient, 17.6 mm projectile is devastating and perfectly fits into self-defense close combat scenario of 18th century. Even today it will make burglar to (...) run away ;)
If I was an artillery crewman an they got too close, I'd risk it and just pour the lot. Maximum yeet. That ammo segment is risky do show on YT, you mad lad XD
I'm sure they would!
@@thebotrchap You know it, they're deaf already, but "Yes sir. Proper procedure was followed as we, an artillery crew. Desperately fought off the enemy" is totally believable.
Great video
The bayonet you showed was suitable for anti horsemen defence.
I had a chance to buy a carbine just like that one waaay back when I was a young lad of 20. I foolishly assumed that it must have been sporterized, so I passed. Found out several years later that it was supposed to look like that! I still kick myself over that one even 20 years later. 😖
With the position of the rear sight, they came so close to inventing the ghost ring sight.
The ghost ring sight is almost as old as portable firearms. You see it on early matchlocks.
Nice vid.
Looks like a great deer rifle.
That firearm has such a chunky look to it that it kind of reminds me of the plastic toys that they make for kids like with pirate costumes or something like that. We're off in the obvious intent of the designer is to make it feel like a gun to the kid but not look gunish to everybody else.
Did that make sense to anybody else?
Well done Chap...
thanks for another interesting and informative video.
I just finished reading a book by Bret Gibbons, “The English Cartridge” which covers the development of the British rifle musket cartridge. In the book he discusses the Delvigne bullet and Thouvenin’s pillar system as well as the Minié bullet of course. He also discussed the Pritchett bullet and the Burton bullet but there was no mention of a tetrahedron cavity in any of the bullets discussed... that was new to me. What was the purpose of the tetrahedron shaped cavity and was that a specific bullet or just how the French made their Minié balls?
Also... I’ve been rolling paper cartridges for my own use as well as to fill the toy cartridge box I made for my six year old grandson. I wish I was as adept at it as you seem to be in the video, it’s always a struggle for me. You make it look so easy.
Be well, give my regards to Bloke, and keep the videos coming.
Joe C.
Thank you for your kind words. I have no idea why they went to polyhedral cavities. The initial 1854 ball just had a regular frustoconical cavity, that said the performance of that minié was rapidly deemed insufficient and somehow the polyhedral cavity came about as the ideal solution. The Swiss Burnand minié for the 1842/59 rifled musket is near identical but with a regular frustoconical cavity.
One thing I can tell you for sure is that the polyhedral cavity minies are a PITA to cast. I have to pour in the lead at just the right angle otherwise I get cavities and pockets in the skirt due to the air having a complicated way out. I guess that they had the time back then and labour was cheap.
...is that a repro of the Bayeux Tapestry behind you??/
Yes, made by my mother 😊
@@thebotrchap nice - from what I can see of it...women made the original...carrying on a great tradition...
@@thebotrchap Ah. I had best not call it the Canterbury Embroidery.
Every time Chap said "T Bis" my brain changed it to "Tea Biscuit."
Joined your channel after seeing you on Finnish brutality with Ian mccollem and you speak proper French unlike Ian Hehe
Musketoon is a fun word to say in French.
Interesting how deep in the stock they bored the ram-rod hole, was that just to save wood weight in the fore-end?
Sounds like someone was using a Carcano in the next shooting bay.
Does the pillar breach come before or after the minié ball, historically?
[edit] I should pay more attention, you did cover that the pillar breach was removed when they moved to minié. Still, free comment for the algo and all that.
(Comment added 20 seconds after the video was posted !!) I was always fond of French percussion longarms. 1822T Bis, 1842T, 1853T, 1857T.
Those musketoons were in fact used up to the Franco-Prussian war since not until around 1873 were artillerymen supplied with Chassepot musketoons.
By the way, the 1822 and the 1829 has the 'T Bis' since they were first converted to percussion later rifled. However, after the 1842 all the converted firearms has a T without a Bis. Why is that or am I mistaken? Is it because they were only rifle converted not percussion converted? But in that case, shouldn't it only have a Bis?
With percussion arms it gets a bit complicated. In that case it is only T (tranformé) be cause they are only modified once. The T basically is an indication of a modification but not what modification. The makings apply even if the gun was produced new featuring all the upgrades.
There is a small family of “Tcar” rifles, “car” indicating “carabine”where they fitted infantry length rifles with chasseur carbine barrels with adjustable sights as a trials upgrade. The project was abandoned with the switch to the 1866 rifle.
"Bis" means "Twice". Hence "T Bis" means "Transformed Twice". A 1822 flintlock musket has been converted to pecussion (first modification) and later rifled (second modification) -> 1822-T-Bis. A 1842 percussion musket has been rifled (first modification) only one modifiation -> 1842-T.
@@jodc2760 Got it, thanks!
@@thebotrchap Thanks
I'll have to listen to this presentation in French to learn some French technical words.
I can't believe I missed this, thanks again Sir Chap. One thing you should revisit is the mention of these being issued to Zouaves, what they were, their role on the battlefied, and why they were popular enough to be copied around the world? Such as their popularity in the US civil war and the fact springfield arsenal developed a dedicated zouave rifle for them.
Initially they were elite light infantry, trained to operate in loose formation and have superior musketry skills, they were also used as shock troops for surprise assaults, not to mention outrageously sexy uniforms. By WW1 they have become no different to regular infantry, some even say considered lesser and used as little more than cannon fodder in the first few months.
Engaging
Like rifling.
Really, one can see why French arsenal engineers were such wizards, because they got so much practice redesigning old weapons to keep up with the new designs! Goes to show you the virtues that come with keeping pretty much the largest army in Europe for a couple of centuries and making an honest effort to not spend needlessly on all-new weapons when a little clever tinkering can keep an older weapon competitive for a few more years. That said, having rifles rebuilt about five times from 1866 Chassepots still on the books for 1940 was a bit extreme.
Old habits die hard 😆 Also 1830-1870 probably saw the most rapid development in firearms in history. We go from smoothbore percussion firearms to metallic cartridge repeaters in 50 years so they more or less had to keep updating constantly.
The rabbit looks concerned
just a little cold while shooting
Interesting vid. (commenting mainly to feed the algorithm with some black powder!)
This is the Chappie - he will show the engine room how to make smoke..... and with the bang make boars head to bacon
You would really not want to get hit by that.
Did I hear an Enfield being fired in the lane next to you?
Good ear
@@thebotrchap Mike's been busy that day XD
Good day sir I know this doesn’t belong here but I have a gun I cannot find any information on over here across the pond as you all say and was wondering if you have ever heard of a F.W.Vandery &co or would have any access to any information about them
Cool
Ok, commenting from Qld Australia, how bloody cold is that place? I'm sad because I had to put on a shirt to put the bins out late at night.
It was around freezing 🥶
It must have been cold, but only 1°C is not that bad. The human should be able to take that for longer than his camera batteries if out of the wind.
Have the same result too high at 50 meters with my Carabine Mle 1859 calibre 17,8 mm 70 grains swiss n°3 (2f) have too try 1f powder
Lucky man indeed to have an 1859 carbine! Gorgeous looking things.
Why this man have the facial posture of Aiden Gillen, is he from Dublin too?
I had to look him up 📖
@@thebotrchap I did too, at first I just thought lord Baelish
@@walterbigsby6380 I had to look that up too 😆
Chap, When the Musketoon was flintlock, did you have flash powder in a horn or did you use some of the main powder charge for the flash pan ?
Same powder in pan and bore from the paper cartridge.
When is a bayonet long enough to be instead/also called a sword?
The official name is indeed sabre-baïonnette
Why the use of the "bis" nomenclature?
Cos that's how the French used to do things like 1a, 1b, 1c: 1bis, 1ter, 1quater. Because reasons :)
No different from the British Mk1, Mk1*, Mk2*, Mk2** etc. Just a chosen way to identify models and modifications. Every country has there own nomenclature for keeping track of variants and modifications. Chacun son goût et ses mœurs.
Ok, thanks, I wasn't aware that was the norm. I seem to have seen the same used in some isolated cases elsewhere.
@@BlokeontheRange sure !
What´s popping up in my mind : M-1 Garand. M-1 Carbine, M-1 howitzer, M-1 helmet.....................always good to have reasons !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Around 16:10 someone must have finished playing with a Mannlicher or a Carcano ...
It was Bloke playing with his No4 in preparation for FB WW
@@thebotrchap Weird! I would have swore that it was a mannlicher clip dropping off the magazine.
Salut Bloke. Where did you get the mold for your Tamisier bullets? Thanks from Lucerne
Only Chap in this video 😉 This musketoon fires miniés, not tamisier bullets. If you have a musketoon still with its pillar you are a very very lucky person! My usual sources are Hensel GmbH in DE or Accurate Molds in the US Grüssen aus Bärn /Chap
@@thebotrchap I don't have a musketoon. But I am looking to buy a Carabina da Cacciatore 1850, the Sicilian copy of the carabine a tige. Not sure if .69 cal. Miniés are gonna work in the pillar breech
@@luzernerschutze7564 No, miniés will not work. I’m not familiar with the profile of the bullet for that rifle but look on the accurate molds website catalog page 31. There are numerous tamisier type bullets available and the dimensions can be changed on request.
@@thebotrchap thanks a lot
oh barrel did not go 17.1 to 17.3. just rifled. height 0.1 mm. you think it did because of changed measuring standards. new standard is measuring land to land
No, they bored them out to 17.6mm, it is marked on the barrel. This happened when converted to percussion with the barrel still smoothbore. It has nothing to do with rifling.
@@thebotrchap ok . misremembered misunderstood then . sorry
@@thebotrchap, to tell the truth, I really like to inspect inside the barrel
et le lapin est dans la casserole!
Did men, women or children roll the bullets?
Probably best not to dig too deeply in that respect 😇 Errr They were produced according to the labour regulations of the times....
Probably women especially during war time.
wait, is that Megalovania playing in the background?
New to the channel? 😉
You're a Frenchman and you're pronouncing it bis, and yet I always assumed it was pronounced bis!
Is that you anglicizing it or have I always been wrong, or somehow both?
I clearly said Bis, can’t you tell the subtle difference?
@@thebotrchap Probably GunFun ZS is confused since in French, you don't pronounce the last letter like an s. But, he probably missed that there are exceptions like the word tous (in certain circumstances).
@@thebotrchap Every time I try to say it, I just get "Rouen".
600 Meters, that's kind of a reach, no? I guess maybe for volley fire..
Oh yeah we’re talking rainbow trajectory but that’s fine against the masses formations of the day. Probably never actually used as such by the artillery crews since they would have been serving their guns to engage at that distance anyway
@@thebotrchap Yeah, figured as much. Thanks Chap!
12:42
Is that... Megalovania?
Megalovania is the BotR House Meme :)
Gunners are all pricks. Every last one of them. (RCA 98-04)
In before RUclips ban, for making 150 year old ammunition
I didn’t put any powder in so it’s considered origami.
@@thebotrchap Now that's why you didn't make the cartridge! Now I understand.
5:16 "this is when the boar is rifled" Quelle horreur! En tous cas, c'était très intéressant, j'ignorais l'existence du système Thouvenin & Tamisier
Chap... stop teasing us with the lathe... carefully parading it just out of reach. Please do a machining video.
I already have. Search “lathe antics”.
Great video