Building Bee Frames - Make vs. Buy - From an Accountant's Perspective
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- Опубликовано: 2 ноя 2024
- There is a longstanding argument amongst beekeepers as to whether it makes financial sense to make your own bee frames instead of purchasing them commercially. Beekeepers that are advocates of buying them commercially will often say, "there are so many intricate cuts required to make a bee frame and you can buy them cheaper than you can make them." In all my research, I have not found a definitive answer to this question, so I started the journey of making 150 bee frames while documenting all of the time and materials required.
The instructional video on the steps to make bee frames can be found at the Beekeepers Workshop RUclips page:
/ beekeepersworkshop
A few years ago, I went with the Layens system where I had to make my own frames. It turned out I had enough scrap 2 by 6 pine from a construction site to complete 38 frames. It would have been nearly impossible to order 3 dozen frames, so I was happy to make my frames from scratch. I had a shop full of all sorts of hand and power tools, so it was a no brainer for me. My time was my own, I should add.
The question for me would be; do I go and do two extra shifts at my boring and mundane job, or do I go out to the workshop and take some time out doing something I want to do....
For me labor is free. I’m a carpenter by trade who has moved up to management so figuring in my hourly rate just doesn’t work. Making my own frames and boxes in the winter months keeps me off the couch watching TV. It’s a hobby/small commercial future business that gets me in the shop making All the Woodware needed for my operation. You can break it down all you want but staying busy and active in New England during the winter when all you can do is wonder if your bees are surviving is all about sustainability. There is nothing like a weekend in the shop catching up on Howard Stern, smoking my pipe (tobacco only-fingers to show), and producing the next few years of hardware that allows me to build my apiary.
I would call it an investment paid for with your time.
First year beekeeper. I caught 5 swarms in used paint buckets. The hives, the frames, even the hive tool - all made from recycled materials. I'm happy! the best hobby for a carpenter.
Honestly, I just screengrabbed the Kelleys Bees page at the 12:53 mark and ordered from there. Because It's a nice price and save me the labor, time and occasional mistakes I would make building my own. It's one thing to be an accountant. It's another to presume 100% accuracy and 0% waste.
This video is four years old now and lumber prices have gone up as have the prices of frames. Since I am retired my time is spent doing what I want. Also, I own a sawmill and can make my own lumber. Making frames for myself is a no brainer. My question is, can I produce them efficiently enough and in large enough quantity to make it profitable?
Very good. You gave an understandable comparison to what many of us have questioned at one time or another. I came to the same conclusion some time ago but this is good to see. Thanks for a great job.
Rick o'shay - thanks for the comment Rick! If there are any other make vs. buy comparisons you would be interested in, let me know in the comments. Good luck this season!
I haven't watched the whole video yet, so I don't know what you concluded. That said, I have more than enough money to buy premade frames, but I enjoy the process of making them myself from scratch. I can point to any piece and describe how I made it, the order of operations, and where I nearly shot a nail into my thumb :)
I have bought frames unassembled and copied them. I pickup scrap lumber at construction sites. I am about to retire( another year) . I own a Shopsmith and lots of other woodworkin tools. It keeps me active and involved in my community. I have the time to do something I like and when I am out in the bee hives no one bothers me, and I give the honey to my family and friends. So the cost doesn't matter to me. I do buy some lumber for supers but l am picky about the lumber from the big box stores, if it has to many knots and defects I let someone else buy it. With all the fake and counterfeit products coming in from around the globe I know the honey I give away is pure local honey.
I really enjoyed this video and the analysis from the engineer's point of view. There are several videos on making frames especially from Europe and Eastern Europe where the process is more efficient than the beekeeper's workshop, though that is a great channel. I bet with practice, experience, and improved techniques you could gain a lot of efficiencies. PLus to quote the VISA ads: Satisfaction that you DIY'd it = PRICELESS. Good video!
Beautiful work !
I wanted to have just a very deep frames for broodboxes having size of 2 boxes (full frame which is 9 9/16" 241mm approx. and the ideal frame which is 5 3/4" 144mm approx.) So by brood box will be in 2 8 frame boxes, but I put only 7 frames which will be having height of 385mm. This will be equivalent to 12 frames, but you're dealing with only 7 frames. The goal is to work with 8 frame supers which will be easier to handle and at the same time 7 frame broodbox which is equivalent of 12 frames for a strong colony. But the time spent is a killer. I currently between contracts but I can't work for for $10. I wish I could.
I like this .....but what alot of people don't understand is like farming alot of time you can't count on your time cause some projects you do cause it's a hobby not a job ...we do them cause we love & enjoy them .... keep up the good work and my God bless you
My father would always say when figuring for farming use a pencil not a pen
I made boxes and frames, $1000 to buy made, but I only have $200 invested, that includes a new saw. I like to do it, so that helps my decision.
I make more than $20, so I'll work a few hours overtime, buy unassembled and assemble them myself.
just revisited this and have noticed you have an error in the first calculation at 5.58mins into the vid - cutting side bars should be 337 mins not the 237 mins shown (100 mins short)
Did you figure cleanup and diposal?
As a few have mentioned was that your formula missed the 110 min of assembly (where were your checks and balances??), so, 14.63hrs, into 209.26, break-even would be $14.30/hr... then you said Wear and Tear on your equipment, but you missed Electricity, and fuel and time to Pick-up materials
I may be wrong here but I don't think you factored the assembly cost into the purchased frames whereas you have included it in the figures for making them yourself. On a different level, interesting video and info none the less...well done
The purchased cost was for assembled frames.
Ohhhhh, I long for the days of yore when wood was that cheap! LOL
One somewhat minor critique is the time it took you to cut the wood to length... How did it take you nearly a solid hour for that on each step? I mean, you set up a stop on your saw, cut, butt the next against the stop, cut, repeat... Was this -all- on a table saw and bandsaw? No chop saw or radial arm saw at all?
Nice work, thanks for sharing. Would be curious to see the comparison between unassembled frames vs full diy, as "typically" frames are less than a dollar each unassembled, could use that info to back calculate without having to actually go another round in the shop (but.. who wants to skip shop time?)
You forgot to factor in the electricity usage a so. Total saw on time time, the watts the saw draws as well as having he lights on in the shop. Multiply the watts per hour times you electric per KWH charge. This total will be minimal, but it will add up. Plugging the saw into a watts meter will come up with an accurate reading. Yea I know. This is splitting hairs, but it should be factored in as well.
Thanks for making me think! I'm retired and have so many things to do which I enjoy that my primary consideration is to spend my time doing the things I like most... and I'm still going to run out of time. I'm gradually learning to not do everything myself and pay someone else to do the other things on my list. I'm in the middle of "assembling" 100 frames which seems a reasonable expenditure of my time. Cutting all the pieces does not interest me at all. Thanks
Let's say, how long did it take for your frames to arrive? Did you take the days lost while in transit into consideration?
I love me some Excel too, but in my formula, 878 minutes is 14.63 hours, not 12.8 (looks like you missed I31 in the formula). If you make more frames next year you should measure your time as again and do this again to see the comparison. I found the more time I made them the faster they went!
as I was watching the video, I was like...something is not adding up!
I would let him do my taxes! ;-)
Why wouldn't you purchase unassembled frames? They are under a dollar a pop. Also Mann Lake frames are nicer than Dadant, just sayin...
I really like this video breaks down things just the way I like to think about it. One thing I didnt see is for the beginner woodworker the pain of trial and error of a first attempt. I'm going through that right now making bee traps bought enough supply's for ten following the plans but still trial and error and mishaps I was able to get 4/10.
You also didn’t factor in the cost of shipping. I’m sure the cost to ship 150 assembled frames and weight would be pricey unless they offered free shipping. This would dramatically change the cost per frame
I noticed your frames aren't wired, wiring would simply make the whole process prohibitive, but even in saying that, I do make my own frames because I enjoy it.
Great info. Thanks!
I believe in your calculations you included the time to put these frames together in your final price and if I'm not wrong and you're purchasing them Prada cost that was frames night put together so unless I missed something in the equation that has to be back out based on based on trying to find the purchase price of the frames unassemble I believe the price that you were quoting for the buying those frame pieces bulk was a price for unassemble and then you assemble them and keep up with your time for assembling them and added it to the call which would I believe the incorrect that line item would be a separate line item I may not have been paying attention well enough and I may have missed where you change that out but I don't think I did I believe that you faced your figures on the purchase price of unassembled frames being a little less than $2 and you actually put together the frames and had that cost in your equation which means you would have to compare your calls to purchasing a symbol frames will be interesting to hear your reply maybe I missed that line item or the deduction for that line item
Didn't the total hours spent cutting and fitting together work out to more that 14 hrs?
I think the sweet spot is buying unassembled frames then putting them together yourself. Kelley has 100 unassembled frames for $89.95. You get shop time while you are assembling the frames and you know that they are put together how you like them. I personally like to glue and staple my frames a certain way.
good insite. you need to include wiring time! I just buy pre wired frames now. as this is a hobby I dont want to spend days assembling frames that is brain nummmbbing. leave it to the eastern countries. spend your saved time watching and learning from the bees. good vid 👍
What are the equipments used for making frames
I didn't see a calculation for shipping costs which, nowadays, is about the same as the cost of the frames, essentially doubling the price. No thanks! I'll make my own.
Good and clear video
Did you include the cost of shipping & tax on the commercially available frames?
When I purchase hive equipment the shipping costs are quite significant.
Then there's 15% tax on the frames & on the shipping.
Something to consider, if you are "working" to buy the frames the cost is not a real world figure. To earn the purchase price you have to also factor in withholdings, taxes, work expenses, insurance... the 1.75 price now is closer to 3 bucks.
One thing that isn't factored is the quality of the DIY frames. Mine are void of knots and other defects. Another thing to consider is that once you are experienced at the process, this could be done in much less time. Especially if you are making great numbers.
Eric Fox - I couldn’t agree more. It seems like small hive beetles like to hide in the nooks and crannies made from knots and other defects. Best of luck to you as you gear up for the season!
Thanks for posting. Ive been thinking about starting beekeeping... I have a ton of bees all over my yard and im thinking why not...Its seem like fun and everyone LOVES honey. I appreciate the analysis. Just wondering if the ones you buy do you have to spend time assembling or are they preassembled? Thanks.
I want to this box
One thing has been bugging me. What is the thickness of those boards for the frame I have nor heard that
Would you consider uploading the excel document?
thats why i buy my frames
there's something else you should factor in which is the cost of the bees you catch with these frames and other equipment you've made. The average cost around here is $150 per 5 frames if you bring your own nuc. So if you caught enough bees to sell that could be factored in at a potential income of 30 x $150 which gives 4500 minus your expenses. Just counting these frames which you'd be selling with the bees ... I think making them was worth the effort.
Aside from that; I do woodworking as a hobby, too, and don't often make money at it, so I just factor in the pleasure I get from looking at the things I create. Since you would probably be in your shop making something anyway, I wouldn't even consider the time factor ! You made 150 frames for less than $50. That was a bargain.
Why did it take so much longer to cut the top bars (H17) then the bottom bars(H24)? Both actions were "cutting 1X6 to length".
Jason Burt a bottom bar is just 3/8ths thick, 3/4 inches wide, and about 17 inches long, don’t remember the exact length, been a while since I made them, but I could cut 50 in about 10 minutes. Having quality tools also speeds up the process.
@@ltsallwood Thank you for the reply.
Hiya anybody made these out of Aluminium before? My friend a bee keeper keep breaking these wooden frames and asked me to make some out of metal instead. I was thinking of using aluminium since its light weight and anti corrosion.
I dont need such a detailed break down, I already know its cheaper to make them IF you have the skill and know how. If not you're going to pay for someone elses time, material and shipping
cost of hydro for using YOUR own machine? missing cost
I ws going to say the same thing. It would probably make buying the frames cheaper. 😄
Hello my beekeeping friend. My name is Brad. Do and or can you make Layens frames? I'm looking for someone to make me 10 unassembled layens hive frames and pay for all their services. Let me know please. Grateful.
mmm without the bee's you would not be doing it how much does overall cost what you got with your honey too and the spring sugar water to feed them they overall cost was it wealth it to make your own
You forgot to account for electric cost as well.
WOW, 5 years later and they are selling for $4.00 each.
One more thing you didn't include was cost of electrical power.
I was thinking the same thing... I would have placed that over wear since he spent so many hours to get the projent done... I'm guessing we nerded out more than he did...lol
Just buy the sides, Better Bee.com I think or something close to that. $6 for 20/ 10 frames, I think it's like $34 for 💯. I will have to look it up, not actual numbers but pretty close. That's were most of your time goes...
Some accountant you are - you didn't attach your spreadsheet to the video as a download so we can audit your work. (just kidding though I wanted it to use to evaluate my efforts in different size batches)
That said - accounting error! - The sheet your showing at minute 7:35 in the video - your top section for Side Bars your total should be 330 minutes, not 237minutes - your not including the Bandsaw 93 minutes in your summation. - so that's another hour and a half your missing from your work so the time in hours is 5.5 instead of 3.95. I knew that had to be wrong because I know comparatively sidebars are about the longest process depending on how much effort you want to put into the ears of your top bars.
Also, your total process hours is not including your Assembly hours - so in addition to missing some of the time in sidebars, it is another 1.83 hours short. Your total time should be 16.18 hours and your time per unit would be 6.47 instead of the 5.85 you show. - that of course changes the rest of your analysis as well, and at $10/hr makes your frames about 0.20 more expensive each or $1.43 per frame - and should amount to about a savings 0.30 a frame - not 0.50 as you show.
Looking through the comments I see others have pointed this out as well.
For me, the real savings is collecting scrap framing lumber from my area and so my material costs for frames are near zero (still need glue, brad nails and foundation). It is the box building I expend money on because I can't find that lumber for free.
You forgot the cost of glue, nails, and power used.
Glue, nails, and power used on a per unit basis adds up to a very nominal cost. Perhaps 1-3 cents per unit which is immaterial for this type of analysis. Thank you for your input Dallas Barrow!
Hope you have plenty of ice on hand..😉
Did he say 6 dollars total material? I call bulls**t.
Was a good analysis....... but being an accountant I’m surprised you didn’t figure in 33% income tax as purchasing is with your post deducted funds.
But it does give a good breakdown
Your time is valuable. If you can pick up a side job for $20/hr, then it would make sense to buy the frames. You have a higher barter rate.
Now show your cost analysis based on purchasing unassembled frames.
At less than two hours spent assembling 150 frames, it is not worth your time or money to cut your own.
You did not factor in your cost for electric to run your tools either.
I cut my own frame once to see how it would go and will not likely do it again without a CNC router. It was not worth my time and money or the frustration to build frames.
To be worth the time a guy would need a designated setup for every cut, that is left alone. That is a lot of equipment tied up for frame cutting.
I am a woodworker by trade and can put my time and money into building my own boxes, bottoms, tops and inner covers. And purchase assembled frames and assemble them myself in very little time.
I can not justify the time it takes to cut my own frames.
For what I spend on unassembled frames, and assemble them myself, I save money, vs buying already assembled. And I can assemble them when needed, taking up less space unassembled.
If I am spending 12.8 hours cutting frames, that means I am not spending time build boxes where I save a ton of money.
For roughly the cost of 5 boxes, bottoms, tops and inner covers I can buy material and build 24 sets of the same.
For what I save on boxes I could buy a truck load of frames and hire someone to assemble them.
I need to be sure to have enough boxes built ahead rather than spend time cutting frames.
In my opinion, as a guy who has bought material and build many homes over many years, financially cutting your own frames is you are losing money and valuable time.
Some things are better left up to the guys with a couple million dollars in equipment, who can cut 100 times as many frames in the same amount of time.
Do you have tutorials on how to make boxes? or bottoms? Thanks.
@@stripcslashes
I personally do not have tutorials on building boxes and bottoms.
I use 1 x 12 pine for my 9 5/8" boxes and 1 x 8 pine for my 6 5/8" boxes.
I rip them down on the table saw and then set up a stop block on the chop saw for cutting my lengths. The drops from 1 x 12 I use for making the framework of the inner covers. After cutting my parts to length I cut in the corner joinery.
I have used box joint, locking miter joint, and rabbited miter and like all three. once set up the locking miter and rabbited miter joint is the quickest to cut.
The locking miter and rabbited miter joint I do with a router.
The shelf for the frames I also cut in with a router and leave set up just for this. You can use the table saw and a dado blade setup for a one position setup as well. But I am always changing my setup at the table saw for many other cuts already and one less setup saves a lot of time.
The length of material used for the least amount of scrap depends on the size of boxes you are using. 10 frame, 8 frame, 7 frame, 5 frame, 4 frame etc.
If you are using 10 frame boxes and only need a handful of boxes, I have found that 4 - 8 foot boards will make 5 boxes with very little scrap.
Cutting 3 - 19.5/8" peaces from two boards and 2 - 19 5/8" peaces from the other two boards and then cutting the 16 1/4" peaces from what is left.
Not really a true comparison. 😎
First it was your first time....... You will get quicker.
Second you could have had much better equipment.
I make a couple of thousand a season.
With just basic Hanyman tools.
Much cheaper than buying them.
Considering it's in my spare time, it's actually free time......
I wonder if he's an accountant!?