dont expect every player in leveling roulette to be an ultimate raider but also... dont excuse not using AoE or tank ignoring mits ect. dont get me wrong, dont be an ass about it. Ive seen people saying that asking someone to do basic shit is "a reportable offence",, like wtf
I agree. I think my point here was more like there is 2 sides to this coin. Sure someone expecting u to play 101% of the job is bad but someone not expecting anything and worse promoting the worse kinds of play are equally as bad. there is a middle ground
Ultimate raiders are good at ultimate raids. Not so much at normal/casual content. They are like mentors. Hit or miss. But mostly a miss. It's really painful to watch an ultimate raider die on normal content. Especially when they are using the title. lol
@@MythSamaelFFXIV as a sprout in a new quiet FC.. I am starting to think the co-owner is one of those who never got corrected or told people not to correct him. I'm a SCH so I have a little trouble with really bad tanks or really bad DPS, and he brought along a SAM and a DNC who (with all the love in the world) stood on every AoE and blamed me for not being able to clean up after them when he was pulling no-warning-wall-to-wall and not using mits. he was a Mentor. ofc. we're talking, I am throwing out dissipation and still sitting there going gray waiting for my oGCD heals to return. and ACTUALLY seeing my MP go down in a way I literally never have to see in normal prog content. but I'm a sprout so I have no right to point out that strain is normal but this is beyond the acceptable level of strain. also I don't use a parser, but I would bet money I was out DPS-ing the DPS. they also brought me in to heal, stayed on voice so thus said nothing in party, and then gave me a "thanks!" and dropped party. just absolutely the worst 2 hours I'd had in the game thus far, and it was my own FC members.
Sprouts messing up anything in Labyrinth, especially Ancient Flare, is just amusing. The only exception is when they pull too early when the alliances have to split up and stand on the pads. From left to right A, B, C... got called toxic for trying to enforce that lol.
I remember apologizing to a Tank on behalf of someone who was being rude(?) to them. Worst mistake of my life, the Tank proceeded to respond to my tell in a hostile manner and decided to flex the fact they had completed every Ultimate. That alarmed me because it's a common trend in the D2 community where people love to invalidate arguments by jerking off their own ego because they solo'd a dungeon. The meltdown those narcissists had during the crafting bug was legendary because people were able to invalidate them. There was also an incident in an old FC of mine back when I was in Goblin where a hardcore raider decided to start falsely accusing a friend of mine for all sorts of heinous stuff with no evidence to prove it. Everyone in his static blindly believed him and when I voiced my frustration with it, the guy threatened to remove me too. In response, I said "for a supposed Navy member, your one soft bitch. My great grandfather could fold you like a lawn chair and train you better than your supposed drill instructor." He went ballistic in the Discord, told me to end my life, then left. I slept pleasantly that night despite being removed for putting that narcissist in his place. Felt good knocking them down a peg. For obvious reasons, I will not name the person to avoid harassment on my end (he loves sending out his goons to harass people because he's a coward). The FC itself fell apart and the leader fled from the Crystal DC once her reputation went up in smoke. As for why I mentioned my great grandfather? He was a former Korean War veteran, passed away in 2023. He lied about his age to volunteer for the U.S. Army at 17. His father fought the Germans in WWII, as well, but his father passed before I was born sadly. I remember hearing about how he "borrowed" one of Adolf's flags after he returned from Europe. Brought it home as a war souvenir
Im really sorry to read this jesus the levels people will go to. Someone clearly needed to go outside . Also as a veteran the fold you like a lawn chair made me laugh
It's truly a double edged sword personally I prefer having the toxic positive casuals over the toxic sweaty elitists. But both are pretty bad - I've narrowed down my qualifications however of what makes a good player into three Don't(s): Don't be a burden. I can't play your role for you, this is a team game, do your job well enough. Don't expect to skate by doing things half hearted. Don't make excuses. When you make a mistake, own up to it, no BS, no pointing fingers, Ask questions if you're confused, and try not to repeat it again. Don't be a jerk. Don't kick people when they are down, A good team is a unit, if they fail we fail, we pick people up, we try again, focus on doing your job.
Yeah and also the toxic casuals are far less common, for every one of them theres at least 3 of the worse kind of toxic. I hate both but its pretty clear that toxic casuals are nothing compared to the real problem
See by those reasonable standards that should be everyones standard for a good player, 90% of the game are good players, which is indeed the case. just sucks anytime you're near the others.
On a positive note I ran a 90 dungeon as Dancer with another Dancer and was asked to partner the tank so everyone gets a buff. They partnered the healer. I said it doesn't work like that and dps is always better but like its a dungeon, it doesn't really matter. A few moments later they partnered me and said I was right and said sorry. Restored my faith in humanity you beautiful Dancer you ❤ My point being there are plenty of nice people who want to learn and improve that are in the game and I don't mind reminding/teaching someone if something if its in "endgame content". As long as people don't start to nag you about your rotation in a lvl 30 dungeon 😂 (The parner buff stacks for Dancers, but not some of the dance buffs. Source: Balance. Have to add this because when I talk about it someone will say no they don't stack 😂 )
I agree however the elitist toxicity is a far far worse issue. I've met at least a couple dozen of those children who think they are gods gift to gaming. maybe 3 toxic "Casuals" in my entire 7 years playing.
They exist in equal amounts considering 1 needs to exist in order for the other to exist. Its confirmation bias based on the kind of player u are. If u lean towards hardcore youll see more toxically casual players then elitists and vice versa if your more casual u will notice elitism more
I was once witness to the worst dungeon run I have ever seen. I wasn't in the dungeon but was watching it because my friend was sharing his screen in discord. It was in the Amaruot dungeon. They timed out. Yes they legitimately ran out of time to beat the dungeon. The tank was a drk that somehow despite playing through the story to get to this point had no idea what any of his skills did, couldn't and didn't dodge any aoes. Didn't know how to use his mitigations. Didn't even have some of his skills on his hotbar. He was quite possibly the worst player I have ever seen in FFXIV. They legitimately couldn't clear the dungeon because he couldn't stay alive. This remains the one and only time I have ever seen a dungeon fail from time out. The worst part about it. This guy was actually in voice call with us. Despite us giving him advice. Trying to guide him. NOT being rude about it by the way. He just couldn't do it. It's like he wasn't even listening. It's not like he wasn't looking for advice either. They did the dungeon with him because we were trying to help him. I even asked him to share his screen so I could better see what he was doing and try to help him. It didn't matter. Telling him exactly what to do, calling out all the mechanics and where to stand. Nothing helped. He wasn't a toxic casual though. He was more embarrassed than anything that he had somehow managed to make it so far without learning anything. And to his credit he was open to advice. It's just that he had a lot of issues putting it into practice.
I don't understand why they don't practice more before going in to play with others. as a sprout healer (SCH), I ran the entire Castrum line like 15 times before I was even willing to set foot in that place with real players. I cannot imagine going in as a DRK tank, one of the trickiest and weirdest tank jobs, and not knowing how to play it when you can easily run a million dungeons at that level with Trusts.
This sounds like a level skipper to me. 9 times out of 10, players like this have skipped story & completely level skipped. Which explains why they have no idea what they're doing 99% of the time.
This is something I've personally struggled with in my static in Endwalker. We get to the point where we know who is messing up at what kind of mechanic. Even to the point of who sucks at what kinds of mechanics, so we almost just... expect it to happen when certain mechs show up. And as the raid shot caller over Discord, I have no fucking clue how to call people out on their repeated mistakes, nor help them find why they're so stuck on it, without coming off as an elitist jerk. Because apparently that happens to be my natural tone of speaking and word selection. I am blunt and abrasive to a fault. I had this same problem in WoW way back when i tried running my own raiding guild. For me, I'm not specifically trying to keep things positive, i just have a hard time not swinging to the other side of the spectrum and cant seem to figure out where the middle ground is. Maybe I'm just a coward, because i absolutely loathe conflict
If your the shot caller it really is just about being firm. They may call you toxic but at the end of the day your all responsible for each other in a static and the basic expectation is to handle your job role effectively aswell as the mechanics, U pointing out someone is fucking up repeatedly is not toxic in the slightest and tbh if they call it toxic get rid of them trust me when i say this. It is better to replace a fault cogwheel then the entire machine its inside. Some people just arent compatible with the content your doing and its okay to let them no that after giving them a fair chance.
Feel free to ignore this entirely of course if it's not helpful, but it worked for my EW static. Our shot caller was infinitely better than me at calling mechs/mits/warning for the two minute, everything, but also hated having to have individual talks with people about repeated issues. He was venting in DMs to me on Discord about it one day, and I offered to help essentially "co-lead." I'd take over calling the 2 minute/tincture/food warnings (since hey, I may suck at seeing mechs early, but I can set a timer with the best of 'em! 🤣), and help go over things after wipes, and again at the end of raid night. The way I'd try to deal with it was by posing fuck-ups as questions, "so hey, what's the main struggle everyone's having getting LCs down?" rather than individually calling peeps out in front of the group or phrasing things as accusations. If it's as you say and it's a few people consistently being an issue, I'd usually take it to DMs or a voice call. I'd try to help with vids, infographics, or mnemonics, depending on what resonated with the person. I remember doing weirdo associations like... with Erich in P1, "okay, shackles! RED = BLOOD = BAD! OUT!" and made them put a sticky note on their monitor with the cardinal markers and which timer was associated with each one. I'd say... about half improved, half didn't... and the main static lead and I would ask the ones not improving to leave in a call. We'd always give them 2 weeks to at least show *some* improvement, or we'd have that conversation. We wanted to respect the others' time. So maybe there's another person in your static who can help mentor/teach? If not, maybe some of what I said I did can help. Regardless though, good luck
@@Silneth this, people, is the difference between Project Management and Management. ♡ this is why you need people who can do both, and you want them working together. amazing job
If you still struggle with this, here is a rule of thumb of critizising people. Always offer a solution. Ideally explain how you came to the solution. Some really simple example would be: Some Black Mage always dies to the same aoe mechanic, because at that point in the fight, their rotation has them cast a big spell? Tell them to preemptively move in preparation of the mechanic they die to before casting their big spell. In my opinion, using these types of criticism and solution works WAY better than leaving the player alone with figuring it out and just saying "Dont die"
I was a SMN tank yesterday in the level 89 dungeon. We found out after the first boss that our tank didn't have provoke on their bar. They would use mits at really strange times... Healer was a boss, but tank kept dying anyway. We still cleared, but I had a long discussion with the tank afterwards about what most groups expect from a tank. They were surprisingly receptive!
Its honestly awesome when they are, But some people are so fragile or just outright deny there doing anything wrong. ive had people die to doom on the first boss of world of darkness who swore blind and doubled down that they definatly for sure looked away at a certain point there just unwilling to helpthemselves
I've stopped caring and no longer waste my time calling people that refuse to learn stuff. It just gets to the point where if they can't read their abilities why would they read chat. I just let them work away, I'll do my part and just leave. Currently as a Tank / Healer main it is usually irrelevent if the rest of the party is dead or alive anyway as most enrage timers are removed from normal content so we can go for as long as it takes. Hopefully enrage timers in easy content comes back so we have a reason to care about mechanics again. I'd rather wipe to enrage over and over so people can understand they need to do mechanic correctly than for them to get free pass and not learn anything so they can repeat same mistakes at a higher level.
pov. am running msq roulettes. get castrum tank doesnt have tank stance up politely tell them they dont have it on tank says they dont know what tank stance is i explain what tank stance is other dps asks me not to be condescending what? its lvl 50 dungeon how do they NOT know what tank stance is 😭
@@MythSamaelFFXIV And even so its incredibly rare compared to the idiots who think you should be banned for not gold parsing (a completely unrealistic standard when you're competing against literal cheaters)
@@zeehero7280 I've butted heads way more with toxic casuals than toxic "elitists" in FF14. In alliance raids, I personally NEVER call out a single person, but the amount of pushback people get for just asking if anyone needs help understanding the fights is crazy.
I'd much rather face elitism like in damn near any other online game than the sort of toxic positivity that can create an uneasy and uncomfortable environment where you feel like you're constantly treading on eggshells because you never know why someone may just choose to make a scene and even get you suspended for, I dunno, explaining an option in the game's settings, or for asking why they don't use their basic mitigation skills, or to, gods forbid, put on a job stone. Makes me miss the days of the XI community; you're being a shit one way or the other? Off you go to being ignored in pariah-land instead of being in fear someone with paper thin skin may get you in trouble for any reason because the people most likely to be neck deep into the toxic positivity crap usually also happen to be so incredibly entitled to their rosey perfect experience being JUST exactly catered to them and them only and how DARE anyone ask them otherwise. After all, you don't pay their subs, and years of experience have validated the idea that you can report someone for damn near anything if you're upset enough.
I miss XI, you could not be a shitlord and get away with it without getting blacklisted by your entire server. and it was wayyyy too hard to start over.
i offer corrections when i can or try to show new players how to do certain things phrasing is important though and how you approach someone, if you start off just insulting them then they will leave with a bad attitude and learn nothing. but if you act friendly and collectively usually the other person will say sorry for messing up or not doing something and in turn ask how to do something. or they will just stay silent which is totally fine no one like to be called out or feel embarrassed in such cases just keep trying your best and if its clear that no progress is being made after repeated mistakes then its ok to quit the duty or instance the only penalty for that is having to wait like 20 or 30 mins to reque a duty/instance. you can use that 30 min break to go out for a smoke or coffee then come back feeling more relaxed and can also ask a friend to even tag along or your fc/linkshell mates if they would like to help or come along.
and i should note i did have to correct a newbie tank once in a 24 man raid for labrynth the introductory raid to 24 mans had to pull the big guy to the center myself cause the guy i was giving the chance to main tank kept pulling him way far away from center which would make things more difficult for the other teams an they or someone else from his team asked why the boss man should be centered and i explained to them it hurts the other teams and potentially wipes the raid if they dont reach the floor panels lol they didnt act mad or anything after i explained probably just felt dumb an it happens xD not everyone is good at following cues
Yeah pretty much though i hate there is this extreme level of fragility sometimes to suggesting anything. I recently had a healer who just could not figure out the prance mechanic in the dead ends. So i put a mark above my head ( I was tank ) and just told them to stick to me itll be one less thing to worry about. They outright refused said its fine im just baiting the jumps in the wrong place ( wtf thats not even a thing you do on prance ) and proceeded to ignore me, the mark and die again to prance then rage quit mid fight
@@MythSamaelFFXIV sometimes lessons have to be learned the hard way lol you handled it good though. some people can just be so stubborn and thick headed an outright refuse the help when its offered to those kinds you just need to let them fail to see where they went wrong but if its someone with malicious intent tho who keeps doing the thing you asked them not to do you can report it. its just one of those times where you should calmly make a suggestion a GM can see everything that is said in chat so they would see that you tried to be polite an that the other person was being disruptive. how i would have phrased it in that case is say "hey (healer name) this fight is pretty tough huh, so you know when Rala thats the sphinx dude here starts hoping around right? the yellow circles are bad for us but dont worry he does his skips like a rythm game when he gets to the last hop the circles will explode we can jump to the first area he jumped on after that explosion." and if they didnt believe you or said something mean or rude you'd be perfectly ok and with in reason to report the incident.
My first time running a deltascape raid with my bf as Paladin but it was a bit rough. I was playing Sage (I'm a level 82 sprout and I've watched countless videos on how to improve but I can admit I mess up still) and this boss in particular placed doom on a few people. I noticed my co-healer who was a WHM was also new to this raid. We both missed out on saving a few people with Esuna (removes the doom status) and some people died. I truly had no idea what was happening because I was dodging aoes and just trying to keep dmg mits and heals up. But other people in the raid were immediately upset with us both. I understand dying to something that could have been prevented and I did apologize after immediately resing them but it was our first time. Sometimes it feels like the further you progress through expansions and harder content the more people become less sympathetic if you are new. I've eventually come to the conclusion that if I don't watch a guide beforehand, I'll get in trouble for missing a mechanic or letting raid members die.
For instance a healer only using Cure is totally fine in Copperbell Mines, particularly if it's a new player, I couldn't give a damn. Hell, as a Tank main I could solo the whole F'ing dungeon if I so chose, don't care. But if you're a healer and you're doing Dead Ends and you're just spamming Cure, you're not using Holy, Dia, Glare, and now & then weave in an Assize, and you don't have Esuna on your hotbar, because you don't know what "enfeeblements" are, then I'm sorry but you are a liability to the group's performance, you should by level 90 know what your job is capable of. And if not, take 10 minutes to watch a guide, or ask in "The Balance", nobody's asking you to play the game perfectly, but at the same time, it doesn't require much effort to at least be somewhat decent. Please put in a bit of effort, it's not too much to ask.
Exactly this. I didnt really no how tenderly to put it. I dont want every single person playing like there lifes depend on it but at the same time I dont think im elitist to have a teeny expectation of basic knowledge and competance by the end game
i honestly find myself just avoiding battle content at this point. peoples' time is both valuable and limited-- this should be especially the case for friends. since i've been playing SMN since heavensward, i feel that dying at all in normal content is a shameful thing that makes extra work for the rest of the party. this is too the point where if i make even a single mistake, be it a single key flub, a brief moment in a bad position, or failing a mechanic which causes me and/or others to take avoidable damage, then i feel i don't deserve any sense of enjoyment for the rest of the duty. the risk of impeding on others' play experience and wasting their time, even on normal content, is something i try to avoid.
Thank you ! Yeah I understand the talking speed thing it's apart of the deadpan comedy style . Think the community will hate me.for trying to slow down now when I'm being compared to Jocat and Zero punctuation. I'm glad you enjoyed it though and thank you for the feedback !
@@MythSamaelFFXIV Yeah I had to put you at 0.75 speed. I am from the U.S. and I had some trouble understanding your accent without reading subtitles. I think a person without English as their first language might also have trouble.
I do believe that a big portion of the reason why people behave this way when called out is because the game does makes little to no effort to teach people how to play at a very basic level. A few months ago, I was helping some friends with their daily roulettes. We got leviathan on trial roulettes. I was playing PLD and we happened to get matched with another PLD. At one point I noticed what the other tank was doing, and oh my god... it was outright *painful* to watch. They were basically pressing whatever bottom they felt like pressing. And by that, I mean using melee skills out of order, throwing aoes in the middle of them, using shield lob, shield bash and interject at complete random. I wanted so badly to say something, but I believed it wouldn't have an effect. Another important point is the classic "You don't pay my sub" excuse. It honestly baffles me that people think that just because they are paying to play this game, they have the right to do play however they want whenever they want. That may be true when playing solo, but not when doing group activities. Those required you to display a bare level of gameplay, and the amount of people who lack it is almost unbelievable. At this point, I'm not even sure what could be done. I always thought that SE should make better tutorials that at least 'point' people to the way the community expects players to play at the very least during dungeons, but I don't know if that'd fix anything anymore.
I've seen similar honestly I think my worst examples was a samurai who didn't no what aoe was let alone his air rotation and a warrior who absolutely refused to pull more then one pack at a time , would straight up just stand there if we didn't do what he wanted and worse still shouted at ME ( I was healing ) for dpsing and not keeping his health at 100%...kept telling me to play a damage class if I wanted to do damage Bare in mind I'm a minimalist healer in roulettes like straight up I'll throw a heal to keep u alive but no where in my job description does it say I have to keep people at 100% .
@@MythSamaelFFXIV this is my biggest fear as a SCH. can't wait to tell them "I literally can't keep your health at full, and I don't need to if you play your job correctly" because it is NOT in my hands, bud lmao. we can't clean up after you if you make big meat shield mistakes.
Thought I'd edit my post to have it be more of an easier read? So yeah I had a friend grew crumble because of this game and it was the toxic positivity nobody wanted to vent any frustrations or be constructive in fear of being toxic which in turn. . .they became toxic anyways because they bottled their frustrations too much instead of actually communicating them and getting points across. I don't like FF14. . .I thought I did but when I first started I was met with extreme toxicity that made me vow to never play any tank class in fear of getting flamed. . .I get why some don't wanna they fear doing this but honestly? The other way isn't better I got bored of the game quicker nobody is talking to me nobody is cool with me I suck a lot at this game and instead of anyone correcting me I continue to suck making my MMO experience even worse to a point and this is currently how it is now so I don't know if I suck. Nobody plays with me. . .all my friends abandoned me nobody talks to me the more I play this the more it feels like a singleplayer. . .only reason why I even still play is the story.
agree with there being a middle ground. it's just a game at the end of the day, and it's just normal content at that. as an aside, you swallow your words with the rate at which you force them out and it makes it nigh impossible to understand you. I understand the speedy delivery is what you're going for, but I'd suggest working on enunciating your words more and getting the full sound out. i shouldn't *need* subtitles to follow another native English speaker hahaha.
I think I understand better now, and agree. PSO2 had (have?) this problem where people would do their damndest to NOT upgrade gear or skills from the time it was introduced. Then they and others who did this would defend this and refer to everyone who had a problem with it sweaty try hards and toxic.
The biggest problem we have is people throwing a hissy fit the moment a much needed dose of "there's no nice way to put this" type of advice is handed out. If you're the reason my dungeon takes another 5 minutes because you're spamming cure 1 in my expert roulette while I'm tanking things as a full BiS warrior who could literally solo the dungeon if we but had the "Warrior solo" option for dungeon roulettes, then you are part of the problem, and there's no nice way of saying it. Some people need to be smacked in the face with the blunt truth in order for them to learn, and it's very easy to tell who needs it and who doesn't. And my frustration would be unwarranted if it was a rare occurrance. But it has been ALMOST EVERY SINGLE EXPERT ROULETTE!!!! I can't be the only one that's personally tired of seeing these brainless players far too often.
I do think the I'm new excuse really just doesn't take u as far as level 90 and I understand this completely . Again I'm very pro new player and actively go out my way to help sprouts but u can't help someone who doesn't wasn't to hrlp themselves and my god the fragility sometimes when you suggest something and just get screamed at by not just the new player but the people around them who protect them regardless . Even today I'm in world of darkness , I explain the look away mechanic on first boss cause people were dying to doom, I explained how to clear it if u do mess up. This one tank dies multiple times . I tell him to look away ... He says he did ... He died to doom ... I take a deep breaths . Okay if u don't look away just cleanse it in the glowing pad , he dies to doom then tells me he did look away and did run to the pad even though I watched him do neither What can I say at that point
funy as paaldin main i have the oposite opiniobn ot many healer dont heal enough they only dps and let tanks get stressed by getting them low for SO CALLED BIG HEAL when it fact most classes can do both dps and heal at the same time and remember oyu doign casual content aka dungs most ppl aint raider they dont like getting low and easily panic and start looking at their hotbar and focus on try to selfheal or spam all their mit at one in a panic.
I feel there's definitely degrees of being "toxic" to just trying to give helpful advice. Mind you it does matter on approach and if the other person is actively trying to improve. Not asking for c+ for your test results im just asking for a little improvement . Little improvement here and there= better person in the long run. Also if your the one being told the advice... Take it on the chin and being able to admit you did something wrong is the first step and hard one to take.
@@MythSamaelFFXIV sadly it goes down to the person of how they taking it. Context is definitely important here. But it is also how the approach is given for it. Not exactly a x y and z answer here.
"Critical sage mechanic" tell me... it wasn't... 😵 ... kardia? Yeah, uh... basically like you said, bare minimum, read tooltips. It is scary indeed and definitely as big of an issue in xiv as elitism, maybe moreso? I've given up trying to offer advice after being scorched into little aether pieces when I've (nicely!) tried before. Great vid, and why are you still criminally low on subs?!? C'mon fellow WoLs. Just look at this lala. Look. At. Him. :D
I think this is a mix of people who have some of the strongest social anxiety in multiplayer gaming history vs people who grew up playing social games and other mmos constantly. I seen a lot that the team needs to make better tutorials to teach people stuff but honestly i think people also need to read their abilities and do some critical thinking on when they should use them. The game doesnt slap you with walls of text on what a skill does lile other games and I feel like to a point daying get better tutorials is a cope out for the raw lazyness of some gamers that at most mobile game when not playing 14. This i mean mostly for class mechanics and ability usage, i 100% agree i think every 10 or so levels after 50 there should be a mnadatory quest that just runs you through marker and mechanic training. On the flip side i think some people take the casual content far, far, far to serious. They play like there is a 20 min timer or they will be deleted irl. If you queue up and you got somewhere to be 30 mins later you uh...should probably manage your time better and not play something that relies on other people. And worse offenders are mentors (these are truly the most toxic people ive ever met in this community and sometimes they are nice but know 0 about the game or classes that dont glam for their erp weekend galore) and the ultimate raiders who threw a little $$ at the realnones and have a odd superiority complex. My thoughts are that honestly people need to read shit more and stop trying to speed run with optimization on content you could literally dps down with quest gear most the time.
Yeah ive spoken out against alot of the elitism ive seen but it lead to people assuming i was the opposite which im just not. I think there is a middle ground everyone should strive to be at or around in a game were in certain content everyons contribution matters. And im not casual enough to suggest there is any excuse for not knowing your aoe rotation at level 90 . I also whilst trying to help people in the most sincere way possible encounter fragility way to often
@@MythSamaelFFXIV I agree, not knowing your skills by lv90 or hell by lv60/70 is unacceptable as you should at least read what you get and they make it obvious when something works better when used with something else. I don't need them to know every possible opener, pot timings, uptime tricks, or anything you expect from a savage raider. Casual shouldn't equal bad, it shouldn't be used as a denotation for skill level. There is a middle ground that most people don't accept or recognize and I am with you when I think the middle of being elite and actually just bad should be what most people want to be. Good enough to no be a burden and hamper your parties fun but not so invested and consumed you are spending multiple hours on training dummy rotations or riddled with performance anxiety.(which I can understand, it isn't easy to break out of that without the mentality of just doing it) jesus I don't mean to essay but this topic gets my goat for some reason.
the Hall of the Novice isn't enough, lol. we need big giant Pokemon Center-style buildings in every major city with full classes for every single job. the training dummies are not enough, because they don't teach you what all your buttons do. it would really improve things if we could tell people "you uhh ever think about popping by the training area and practicing your rotation?" because as a sprout the thing I realized is, if they don't know their rotation or even have a basic broken one... they aren't going to be adhering to mechanics and probably don't know what any of their moves do.
@xXluluchanelXx I agree it's why I think after 50 they should make a quest that requires you to go into a training session to utilize your kit on a basic level. But for some classes that only get complex after 70 I think people should make more of an effort to read their skills and do a little thinking in when they should use them. I also think they should have a pop up for trait upgrades that add or change the function of a skill. Dragoon suffers from this for newer players and some of the stuff post 60
Imo the toxic positive players make this game almost unbearable. The elitist usually only comes out when you can't seem to do the absolute bare minimum. Tank stance, healer dps, aoe pacts, etc...
I mean sure but anyone defending someone's mistake could be considered toxically casual / positive . It's 2 sides of the same coin and one can't exist without the other
Wait you mean the other people in Expert dungeons aren't NPCs??? shieeet I don't disagree with you but honestly though, after playing this game long enough you start to give a shit less and less about things like 'Experts' that either you treat them like NPC runs or you simply don't do them (I mean hunts give better rewards anyway for your time). It's equally less worth my time trying to tell someone how to play only for them to likely abuse me than to just pump the DPS and basically solo the damn thing. In Extremes+ sure I'll give advice but I just cbf in any super casual content... not because I think it's fine but it's so mind off that it's hard to even convey the reasoning to play better because the content is just so easy.
Elitism is way worse. Sure toxic positivity and bad players will mess up and be useless but they will rarely if ever show up in content where their inability ever matters. Meanwhile elitists and gatekeepers are a huge reason a lot of players never bother to set foot into high end content and their overly negative attitude will actively push people away from the game either from disuading new players from trying the game alltogether or by convincing existing players to be as cynical as them and leave. Sure you have spaces like the r/ffxiv subreddit where its an absolute echo chamber and any criticism of the game runs you the risk of being perma banned because the mods are absolute fanboys who will silence any and all discussion that isnt completely positive but that is pretty much only an issue outside the game and rarely ever becomes an issue while actually playing the game unlike elitism.
I dont feel its way worse at all I think they need each other to exist, Its because of the toxically casual players who dont invest time in there rotation, dont try to improve, are happy to die to the same mechanic over and over again without asking why that the elitist feel the need to gatekeep etc etc One cannot exist without the other because one causes the other .
@@pod155 No thats not what im saying, what im saying is that some random cure 1 fishing in your leveling roulette is much less of a problem than toxic elitists gatekeeping an entire portion of the game for a large amount of people.
@popelipo6281 asking people to do the bear minimum in level roulette isn't gatekeeping. Like, when a dps come into a dungeon and hold all their buffs for the boss and not the trash and the tank die due to the healer running out of resources to keep them alive is no good. If someone point that they should be using their buffs to kill trash but they refuse to listen, maybe they need to be gatekept. Because enabling bad behavior through bad gameplay makes this game much worse.
@@pod155 I havnt said anyone is gatekeeping leveling roulettes. I am saying you can still clear your leveling roulettes with bad players without much issue but a lot of players refuse to touch ex trials or savage content because of toxic elitism. Bad players slightly inconvenience you elitism and gatekeeping completely lock players out of a good chunk of the game.
those 2 words together toxic and positive cancel each other out This actually began from a posters labeling the community just to good to positive .the origin of this meaning. I don't think this fits here. You will always get players with diff levels of play esp. esp due the length of this game.alone.
noo i tend to disagree u can very much have toxic positivity . Its a very real thing in alot of cases and this is one of them. It doesnt cancel itself out
NO BUT FOR REAL
They're the same person!
I mean.... You're not wrong. I can't tell the difference with the pic I got of the two
dude finally someone says it, i got them mixed up hard the other day
dont expect every player in leveling roulette to be an ultimate raider but also... dont excuse not using AoE or tank ignoring mits ect. dont get me wrong, dont be an ass about it. Ive seen people saying that asking someone to do basic shit is "a reportable offence",, like wtf
I agree. I think my point here was more like there is 2 sides to this coin. Sure someone expecting u to play 101% of the job is bad but someone not expecting anything and worse promoting the worse kinds of play are equally as bad. there is a middle ground
Ultimate raiders are good at ultimate raids. Not so much at normal/casual content. They are like mentors. Hit or miss. But mostly a miss. It's really painful to watch an ultimate raider die on normal content. Especially when they are using the title. lol
Ive seen so many times people with TOP weapons die to the 2nd boss of lapis manalis lol.
@@MythSamaelFFXIV as a sprout in a new quiet FC.. I am starting to think the co-owner is one of those who never got corrected or told people not to correct him. I'm a SCH so I have a little trouble with really bad tanks or really bad DPS, and he brought along a SAM and a DNC who (with all the love in the world) stood on every AoE and blamed me for not being able to clean up after them when he was pulling no-warning-wall-to-wall and not using mits. he was a Mentor. ofc.
we're talking, I am throwing out dissipation and still sitting there going gray waiting for my oGCD heals to return. and ACTUALLY seeing my MP go down in a way I literally never have to see in normal prog content. but I'm a sprout so I have no right to point out that strain is normal but this is beyond the acceptable level of strain.
also I don't use a parser, but I would bet money I was out DPS-ing the DPS.
they also brought me in to heal, stayed on voice so thus said nothing in party, and then gave me a "thanks!" and dropped party. just absolutely the worst 2 hours I'd had in the game thus far, and it was my own FC members.
well it is only thing you should say is hy and gg else you can get blocked witnessed that myself with a few clanmembers 2ish years ago
Sprouts messing up anything in Labyrinth, especially Ancient Flare, is just amusing. The only exception is when they pull too early when the alliances have to split up and stand on the pads.
From left to right A, B, C... got called toxic for trying to enforce that lol.
Yeah I feel like some don't want to help themselves
I remember apologizing to a Tank on behalf of someone who was being rude(?) to them. Worst mistake of my life, the Tank proceeded to respond to my tell in a hostile manner and decided to flex the fact they had completed every Ultimate. That alarmed me because it's a common trend in the D2 community where people love to invalidate arguments by jerking off their own ego because they solo'd a dungeon. The meltdown those narcissists had during the crafting bug was legendary because people were able to invalidate them.
There was also an incident in an old FC of mine back when I was in Goblin where a hardcore raider decided to start falsely accusing a friend of mine for all sorts of heinous stuff with no evidence to prove it. Everyone in his static blindly believed him and when I voiced my frustration with it, the guy threatened to remove me too. In response, I said "for a supposed Navy member, your one soft bitch. My great grandfather could fold you like a lawn chair and train you better than your supposed drill instructor." He went ballistic in the Discord, told me to end my life, then left. I slept pleasantly that night despite being removed for putting that narcissist in his place. Felt good knocking them down a peg.
For obvious reasons, I will not name the person to avoid harassment on my end (he loves sending out his goons to harass people because he's a coward). The FC itself fell apart and the leader fled from the Crystal DC once her reputation went up in smoke.
As for why I mentioned my great grandfather? He was a former Korean War veteran, passed away in 2023. He lied about his age to volunteer for the U.S. Army at 17. His father fought the Germans in WWII, as well, but his father passed before I was born sadly. I remember hearing about how he "borrowed" one of Adolf's flags after he returned from Europe. Brought it home as a war souvenir
Im really sorry to read this jesus the levels people will go to. Someone clearly needed to go outside . Also as a veteran the fold you like a lawn chair made me laugh
Did you type all that to tell us how much cooler your ancestors were than you?
It's truly a double edged sword personally I prefer having the toxic positive casuals over the toxic sweaty elitists.
But both are pretty bad - I've narrowed down my qualifications however of what makes a good player into three Don't(s):
Don't be a burden. I can't play your role for you, this is a team game, do your job well enough. Don't expect to skate by doing things half hearted.
Don't make excuses. When you make a mistake, own up to it, no BS, no pointing fingers, Ask questions if you're confused, and try not to repeat it again.
Don't be a jerk. Don't kick people when they are down, A good team is a unit, if they fail we fail, we pick people up, we try again, focus on doing your job.
A solid response and basically my take
essentially my message to all the glare mages appearing in my roullettes
Yeah and also the toxic casuals are far less common, for every one of them theres at least 3 of the worse kind of toxic. I hate both but its pretty clear that toxic casuals are nothing compared to the real problem
See by those reasonable standards that should be everyones standard for a good player, 90% of the game are good players, which is indeed the case. just sucks anytime you're near the others.
On a positive note I ran a 90 dungeon as Dancer with another Dancer and was asked to partner the tank so everyone gets a buff. They partnered the healer. I said it doesn't work like that and dps is always better but like its a dungeon, it doesn't really matter. A few moments later they partnered me and said I was right and said sorry.
Restored my faith in humanity you beautiful Dancer you ❤
My point being there are plenty of nice people who want to learn and improve that are in the game and I don't mind reminding/teaching someone if something if its in "endgame content". As long as people don't start to nag you about your rotation in a lvl 30 dungeon 😂
(The parner buff stacks for Dancers, but not some of the dance buffs. Source: Balance. Have to add this because when I talk about it someone will say no they don't stack 😂 )
Yey productive offered advice that didnt explode in your face due to fragility ! thats awesome and yeah totally agree
I can see thinking that's the best move, because you wanna keep your healer alive, but it is so refreshing to see someone actually wanting to learn. ♡
I agree however the elitist toxicity is a far far worse issue. I've met at least a couple dozen of those children who think they are gods gift to gaming. maybe 3 toxic "Casuals" in my entire 7 years playing.
They exist in equal amounts considering 1 needs to exist in order for the other to exist. Its confirmation bias based on the kind of player u are. If u lean towards hardcore youll see more toxically casual players then elitists and vice versa if your more casual u will notice elitism more
I was once witness to the worst dungeon run I have ever seen. I wasn't in the dungeon but was watching it because my friend was sharing his screen in discord. It was in the Amaruot dungeon. They timed out. Yes they legitimately ran out of time to beat the dungeon. The tank was a drk that somehow despite playing through the story to get to this point had no idea what any of his skills did, couldn't and didn't dodge any aoes. Didn't know how to use his mitigations. Didn't even have some of his skills on his hotbar. He was quite possibly the worst player I have ever seen in FFXIV. They legitimately couldn't clear the dungeon because he couldn't stay alive. This remains the one and only time I have ever seen a dungeon fail from time out.
The worst part about it. This guy was actually in voice call with us. Despite us giving him advice. Trying to guide him. NOT being rude about it by the way. He just couldn't do it. It's like he wasn't even listening. It's not like he wasn't looking for advice either. They did the dungeon with him because we were trying to help him. I even asked him to share his screen so I could better see what he was doing and try to help him. It didn't matter. Telling him exactly what to do, calling out all the mechanics and where to stand. Nothing helped. He wasn't a toxic casual though. He was more embarrassed than anything that he had somehow managed to make it so far without learning anything. And to his credit he was open to advice. It's just that he had a lot of issues putting it into practice.
Yeah i think its so easy for some people to lose track of things when no one is there to point it out. Hopefully he did focus to improve
I don't understand why they don't practice more before going in to play with others. as a sprout healer (SCH), I ran the entire Castrum line like 15 times before I was even willing to set foot in that place with real players. I cannot imagine going in as a DRK tank, one of the trickiest and weirdest tank jobs, and not knowing how to play it when you can easily run a million dungeons at that level with Trusts.
This sounds like a level skipper to me. 9 times out of 10, players like this have skipped story & completely level skipped. Which explains why they have no idea what they're doing 99% of the time.
This is something I've personally struggled with in my static in Endwalker. We get to the point where we know who is messing up at what kind of mechanic. Even to the point of who sucks at what kinds of mechanics, so we almost just... expect it to happen when certain mechs show up.
And as the raid shot caller over Discord, I have no fucking clue how to call people out on their repeated mistakes, nor help them find why they're so stuck on it, without coming off as an elitist jerk.
Because apparently that happens to be my natural tone of speaking and word selection. I am blunt and abrasive to a fault. I had this same problem in WoW way back when i tried running my own raiding guild.
For me, I'm not specifically trying to keep things positive, i just have a hard time not swinging to the other side of the spectrum and cant seem to figure out where the middle ground is.
Maybe I'm just a coward, because i absolutely loathe conflict
If your the shot caller it really is just about being firm. They may call you toxic but at the end of the day your all responsible for each other in a static and the basic expectation is to handle your job role effectively aswell as the mechanics, U pointing out someone is fucking up repeatedly is not toxic in the slightest and tbh if they call it toxic get rid of them
trust me when i say this. It is better to replace a fault cogwheel then the entire machine its inside. Some people just arent compatible with the content your doing and its okay to let them no that after giving them a fair chance.
Feel free to ignore this entirely of course if it's not helpful, but it worked for my EW static. Our shot caller was infinitely better than me at calling mechs/mits/warning for the two minute, everything, but also hated having to have individual talks with people about repeated issues.
He was venting in DMs to me on Discord about it one day, and I offered to help essentially "co-lead." I'd take over calling the 2 minute/tincture/food warnings (since hey, I may suck at seeing mechs early, but I can set a timer with the best of 'em! 🤣), and help go over things after wipes, and again at the end of raid night.
The way I'd try to deal with it was by posing fuck-ups as questions, "so hey, what's the main struggle everyone's having getting LCs down?" rather than individually calling peeps out in front of the group or phrasing things as accusations.
If it's as you say and it's a few people consistently being an issue, I'd usually take it to DMs or a voice call. I'd try to help with vids, infographics, or mnemonics, depending on what resonated with the person. I remember doing weirdo associations like... with Erich in P1, "okay, shackles! RED = BLOOD = BAD! OUT!" and made them put a sticky note on their monitor with the cardinal markers and which timer was associated with each one.
I'd say... about half improved, half didn't... and the main static lead and I would ask the ones not improving to leave in a call. We'd always give them 2 weeks to at least show *some* improvement, or we'd have that conversation. We wanted to respect the others' time. So maybe there's another person in your static who can help mentor/teach? If not, maybe some of what I said I did can help. Regardless though, good luck
@@Silneth this, people, is the difference between Project Management and Management. ♡ this is why you need people who can do both, and you want them working together. amazing job
@@peachy_lili Well said, I hadn't thought of it in those terms! :)
If you still struggle with this, here is a rule of thumb of critizising people.
Always offer a solution. Ideally explain how you came to the solution.
Some really simple example would be:
Some Black Mage always dies to the same aoe mechanic, because at that point in the fight, their rotation has them cast a big spell? Tell them to preemptively move in preparation of the mechanic they die to before casting their big spell.
In my opinion, using these types of criticism and solution works WAY better than leaving the player alone with figuring it out and just saying "Dont die"
I was a SMN tank yesterday in the level 89 dungeon. We found out after the first boss that our tank didn't have provoke on their bar. They would use mits at really strange times... Healer was a boss, but tank kept dying anyway. We still cleared, but I had a long discussion with the tank afterwards about what most groups expect from a tank. They were surprisingly receptive!
Its honestly awesome when they are, But some people are so fragile or just outright deny there doing anything wrong. ive had people die to doom on the first boss of world of darkness who swore blind and doubled down that they definatly for sure looked away
at a certain point there just unwilling to helpthemselves
I've stopped caring and no longer waste my time calling people that refuse to learn stuff. It just gets to the point where if they can't read their abilities why would they read chat. I just let them work away, I'll do my part and just leave. Currently as a Tank / Healer main it is usually irrelevent if the rest of the party is dead or alive anyway as most enrage timers are removed from normal content so we can go for as long as it takes. Hopefully enrage timers in easy content comes back so we have a reason to care about mechanics again.
I'd rather wipe to enrage over and over so people can understand they need to do mechanic correctly than for them to get free pass and not learn anything so they can repeat same mistakes at a higher level.
yeah i largely agree, this coupled with peoples fragility when you offer any sort of advice
TLDR do not be an asshole or weird, everybody is human and makes mistakes, help when you can or are asked to
yup best take
pov. am running msq roulettes.
get castrum
tank doesnt have tank stance up
politely tell them they dont have it on
tank says they dont know what tank stance is
i explain what tank stance is
other dps asks me not to be condescending
what?
its lvl 50 dungeon how do they NOT know what tank stance is
😭
Had something similiar happen before. There is way to much coddling in this game sometimes
@@MythSamaelFFXIV And even so its incredibly rare compared to the idiots who think you should be banned for not gold parsing (a completely unrealistic standard when you're competing against literal cheaters)
@@zeehero7280 I've butted heads way more with toxic casuals than toxic "elitists" in FF14. In alliance raids, I personally NEVER call out a single person, but the amount of pushback people get for just asking if anyone needs help understanding the fights is crazy.
I'd much rather face elitism like in damn near any other online game than the sort of toxic positivity that can create an uneasy and uncomfortable environment where you feel like you're constantly treading on eggshells because you never know why someone may just choose to make a scene and even get you suspended for, I dunno, explaining an option in the game's settings, or for asking why they don't use their basic mitigation skills, or to, gods forbid, put on a job stone.
Makes me miss the days of the XI community; you're being a shit one way or the other? Off you go to being ignored in pariah-land instead of being in fear someone with paper thin skin may get you in trouble for any reason because the people most likely to be neck deep into the toxic positivity crap usually also happen to be so incredibly entitled to their rosey perfect experience being JUST exactly catered to them and them only and how DARE anyone ask them otherwise. After all, you don't pay their subs, and years of experience have validated the idea that you can report someone for damn near anything if you're upset enough.
Yup the eggshells Its pain and feels like u can't do anything about it
I miss XI, you could not be a shitlord and get away with it without getting blacklisted by your entire server. and it was wayyyy too hard to start over.
i offer corrections when i can or try to show new players how to do certain things phrasing is important though and how you approach someone, if you start off just insulting them then they will leave with a bad attitude and learn nothing.
but if you act friendly and collectively usually the other person will say sorry for messing up or not doing something and in turn ask how to do something. or they will just stay silent which is totally fine no one like to be called out or feel embarrassed in such cases just keep trying your best and if its clear that no progress is being made after repeated mistakes then its ok to quit the duty or instance the only penalty for that is having to wait like 20 or 30 mins to reque a duty/instance. you can use that 30 min break to go out for a smoke or coffee then come back feeling more relaxed and can also ask a friend to even tag along or your fc/linkshell mates if they would like to help or come along.
and i should note i did have to correct a newbie tank once in a 24 man raid for labrynth the introductory raid to 24 mans had to pull the big guy to the center myself cause the guy i was giving the chance to main tank kept pulling him way far away from center which would make things more difficult for the other teams an they or someone else from his team asked why the boss man should be centered and i explained to them it hurts the other teams and potentially wipes the raid if they dont reach the floor panels lol they didnt act mad or anything after i explained probably just felt dumb an it happens xD not everyone is good at following cues
Yeah pretty much though i hate there is this extreme level of fragility sometimes to suggesting anything. I recently had a healer who just could not figure out the prance mechanic in the dead ends. So i put a mark above my head ( I was tank ) and just told them to stick to me itll be one less thing to worry about. They outright refused said its fine im just baiting the jumps in the wrong place ( wtf thats not even a thing you do on prance ) and proceeded to ignore me, the mark and die again to prance then rage quit mid fight
@@MythSamaelFFXIV sometimes lessons have to be learned the hard way lol you handled it good though. some people can just be so stubborn and thick headed an outright refuse the help when its offered to those kinds you just need to let them fail to see where they went wrong but if its someone with malicious intent tho who keeps doing the thing you asked them not to do you can report it.
its just one of those times where you should calmly make a suggestion a GM can see everything that is said in chat so they would see that you tried to be polite an that the other person was being disruptive.
how i would have phrased it in that case is say "hey (healer name) this fight is pretty tough huh, so you know when Rala thats the sphinx dude here starts hoping around right? the yellow circles are bad for us but dont worry he does his skips like a rythm game when he gets to the last hop the circles will explode we can jump to the first area he jumped on after that explosion." and if they didnt believe you or said something mean or rude you'd be perfectly ok and with in reason to report the incident.
My first time running a deltascape raid with my bf as Paladin but it was a bit rough. I was playing Sage (I'm a level 82 sprout and I've watched countless videos on how to improve but I can admit I mess up still) and this boss in particular placed doom on a few people. I noticed my co-healer who was a WHM was also new to this raid. We both missed out on saving a few people with Esuna (removes the doom status) and some people died. I truly had no idea what was happening because I was dodging aoes and just trying to keep dmg mits and heals up. But other people in the raid were immediately upset with us both. I understand dying to something that could have been prevented and I did apologize after immediately resing them but it was our first time. Sometimes it feels like the further you progress through expansions and harder content the more people become less sympathetic if you are new. I've eventually come to the conclusion that if I don't watch a guide beforehand, I'll get in trouble for missing a mechanic or letting raid members die.
Pretty spot on , people are more sympathetic when they can see your openly trying to help yourself
For instance a healer only using Cure is totally fine in Copperbell Mines, particularly if it's a new player, I couldn't give a damn. Hell, as a Tank main I could solo the whole F'ing dungeon if I so chose, don't care.
But if you're a healer and you're doing Dead Ends and you're just spamming Cure, you're not using Holy, Dia, Glare, and now & then weave in an Assize, and you don't have Esuna on your hotbar, because you don't know what "enfeeblements" are, then I'm sorry but you are a liability to the group's performance, you should by level 90 know what your job is capable of.
And if not, take 10 minutes to watch a guide, or ask in "The Balance", nobody's asking you to play the game perfectly, but at the same time, it doesn't require much effort to at least be somewhat decent.
Please put in a bit of effort, it's not too much to ask.
Exactly this. I didnt really no how tenderly to put it. I dont want every single person playing like there lifes depend on it but at the same time I dont think im elitist to have a teeny expectation of basic knowledge and competance by the end game
in copperbell mines cure is practically all you have LOL
i honestly find myself just avoiding battle content at this point. peoples' time is both valuable and limited-- this should be especially the case for friends. since i've been playing SMN since heavensward, i feel that dying at all in normal content is a shameful thing that makes extra work for the rest of the party. this is too the point where if i make even a single mistake, be it a single key flub, a brief moment in a bad position, or failing a mechanic which causes me and/or others to take avoidable damage, then i feel i don't deserve any sense of enjoyment for the rest of the duty. the risk of impeding on others' play experience and wasting their time, even on normal content, is something i try to avoid.
I'm really sorry to hear this
good video only criticism is its a little hard to understand because you talk really fast but the point stands and the subtitles help.
Thank you ! Yeah I understand the talking speed thing it's apart of the deadpan comedy style . Think the community will hate me.for trying to slow down now when I'm being compared to Jocat and Zero punctuation. I'm glad you enjoyed it though and thank you for the feedback !
@@MythSamaelFFXIV Yeah I had to put you at 0.75 speed. I am from the U.S. and I had some trouble understanding your accent without reading subtitles. I think a person without English as their first language might also have trouble.
I do believe that a big portion of the reason why people behave this way when called out is because the game does makes little to no effort to teach people how to play at a very basic level.
A few months ago, I was helping some friends with their daily roulettes. We got leviathan on trial roulettes. I was playing PLD and we happened to get matched with another PLD. At one point I noticed what the other tank was doing, and oh my god... it was outright *painful* to watch. They were basically pressing whatever bottom they felt like pressing. And by that, I mean using melee skills out of order, throwing aoes in the middle of them, using shield lob, shield bash and interject at complete random. I wanted so badly to say something, but I believed it wouldn't have an effect.
Another important point is the classic "You don't pay my sub" excuse. It honestly baffles me that people think that just because they are paying to play this game, they have the right to do play however they want whenever they want. That may be true when playing solo, but not when doing group activities. Those required you to display a bare level of gameplay, and the amount of people who lack it is almost unbelievable.
At this point, I'm not even sure what could be done. I always thought that SE should make better tutorials that at least 'point' people to the way the community expects players to play at the very least during dungeons, but I don't know if that'd fix anything anymore.
I've seen similar honestly I think my worst examples was a samurai who didn't no what aoe was let alone his air rotation and a warrior who absolutely refused to pull more then one pack at a time , would straight up just stand there if we didn't do what he wanted and worse still shouted at ME ( I was healing ) for dpsing and not keeping his health at 100%...kept telling me to play a damage class if I wanted to do damage
Bare in mind I'm a minimalist healer in roulettes like straight up I'll throw a heal to keep u alive but no where in my job description does it say I have to keep people at 100% .
@@MythSamaelFFXIV can I have you for my healer instead of the glare mage mentors that I get please?
Haha sure if your in Europe or OC
@@MythSamaelFFXIV this is my biggest fear as a SCH. can't wait to tell them "I literally can't keep your health at full, and I don't need to if you play your job correctly" because it is NOT in my hands, bud lmao. we can't clean up after you if you make big meat shield mistakes.
Thought I'd edit my post to have it be more of an easier read? So yeah I had a friend grew crumble because of this game and it was the toxic positivity nobody wanted to vent any frustrations or be constructive in fear of being toxic which in turn. . .they became toxic anyways because they bottled their frustrations too much instead of actually communicating them and getting points across.
I don't like FF14. . .I thought I did but when I first started I was met with extreme toxicity that made me vow to never play any tank class in fear of getting flamed. . .I get why some don't wanna they fear doing this but honestly? The other way isn't better I got bored of the game quicker nobody is talking to me nobody is cool with me I suck a lot at this game and instead of anyone correcting me I continue to suck making my MMO experience even worse to a point and this is currently how it is now so I don't know if I suck.
Nobody plays with me. . .all my friends abandoned me nobody talks to me the more I play this the more it feels like a singleplayer. . .only reason why I even still play is the story.
Im sorry to hear that, It seems you havnt met the right people yet but you will ! Its just consistancy and patience sometimes and improving takes time
agree with there being a middle ground. it's just a game at the end of the day, and it's just normal content at that.
as an aside, you swallow your words with the rate at which you force them out and it makes it nigh impossible to understand you. I understand the speedy delivery is what you're going for, but I'd suggest working on enunciating your words more and getting the full sound out. i shouldn't *need* subtitles to follow another native English speaker hahaha.
its my accent...northern and british . I dont force anything out this is how i talk XD
I think I understand better now, and agree. PSO2 had (have?) this problem where people would do their damndest to NOT upgrade gear or skills from the time it was introduced. Then they and others who did this would defend this and refer to everyone who had a problem with it sweaty try hards and toxic.
Yup it's a snake biting its own tail
The biggest problem we have is people throwing a hissy fit the moment a much needed dose of "there's no nice way to put this" type of advice is handed out. If you're the reason my dungeon takes another 5 minutes because you're spamming cure 1 in my expert roulette while I'm tanking things as a full BiS warrior who could literally solo the dungeon if we but had the "Warrior solo" option for dungeon roulettes, then you are part of the problem, and there's no nice way of saying it. Some people need to be smacked in the face with the blunt truth in order for them to learn, and it's very easy to tell who needs it and who doesn't. And my frustration would be unwarranted if it was a rare occurrance. But it has been ALMOST EVERY SINGLE EXPERT ROULETTE!!!! I can't be the only one that's personally tired of seeing these brainless players far too often.
I do think the I'm new excuse really just doesn't take u as far as level 90 and I understand this completely . Again I'm very pro new player and actively go out my way to help sprouts but u can't help someone who doesn't wasn't to hrlp themselves and my god the fragility sometimes when you suggest something and just get screamed at by not just the new player but the people around them who protect them regardless . Even today I'm in world of darkness , I explain the look away mechanic on first boss cause people were dying to doom, I explained how to clear it if u do mess up. This one tank dies multiple times . I tell him to look away ... He says he did ... He died to doom ... I take a deep breaths . Okay if u don't look away just cleanse it in the glowing pad , he dies to doom then tells me he did look away and did run to the pad even though I watched him do neither
What can I say at that point
funy as paaldin main i have the oposite opiniobn ot many healer dont heal enough they only dps and let tanks get stressed by getting them low for SO CALLED BIG HEAL when it fact most classes can do both dps and heal at the same time and remember oyu doign casual content aka dungs most ppl aint raider they dont like getting low and easily panic and start looking at their hotbar and focus on try to selfheal or spam all their mit at one in a panic.
Man you put into words EXACTLY how I felt when i played FF14. Sometimes there just isnt a "nice way to put this".
i thought my english was intermediary😅, this video proved me wrong, thanks for the subtitles
haha oh dont feel bad, Its the fact im northern, We talk like were sprinting XD
I feel there's definitely degrees of being "toxic" to just trying to give helpful advice. Mind you it does matter on approach and if the other person is actively trying to improve. Not asking for c+ for your test results im just asking for a little improvement . Little improvement here and there= better person in the long run. Also if your the one being told the advice... Take it on the chin and being able to admit you did something wrong is the first step and hard one to take.
Yeah i feel like there is an element of fragility sometimes where someone receiving advice feels attacked.
@@MythSamaelFFXIV sadly it goes down to the person of how they taking it. Context is definitely important here. But it is also how the approach is given for it. Not exactly a x y and z answer here.
The bard not using stormbite in the dead ends.... probably not using 80% of their other skills
Oooof as a current bard main my soul hurts
"Critical sage mechanic" tell me... it wasn't... 😵 ... kardia? Yeah, uh... basically like you said, bare minimum, read tooltips. It is scary indeed and definitely as big of an issue in xiv as elitism, maybe moreso? I've given up trying to offer advice after being scorched into little aether pieces when I've (nicely!) tried before. Great vid, and why are you still criminally low on subs?!? C'mon fellow WoLs. Just look at this lala. Look. At. Him. :D
Oh you i appreciate that and I dont want to oust her though i seee she commented below. XD but it was actually something worse then forgetting kardia
Ooh no name/shame then, for sure. :)
Good video. Honestly was surprised to realize this is a small channel.
Thanks I really appreciate that ! Everyone starts somewhere x
I feel betrayed... I never thought someone would come after my gaming habits!😮😮
You're only supposed to get mad at the other guys 😞
Nooo im sorry ! XD
I think this is a mix of people who have some of the strongest social anxiety in multiplayer gaming history vs people who grew up playing social games and other mmos constantly.
I seen a lot that the team needs to make better tutorials to teach people stuff but honestly i think people also need to read their abilities and do some critical thinking on when they should use them. The game doesnt slap you with walls of text on what a skill does lile other games and I feel like to a point daying get better tutorials is a cope out for the raw lazyness of some gamers that at most mobile game when not playing 14. This i mean mostly for class mechanics and ability usage, i 100% agree i think every 10 or so levels after 50 there should be a mnadatory quest that just runs you through marker and mechanic training.
On the flip side i think some people take the casual content far, far, far to serious. They play like there is a 20 min timer or they will be deleted irl. If you queue up and you got somewhere to be 30 mins later you uh...should probably manage your time better and not play something that relies on other people. And worse offenders are mentors (these are truly the most toxic people ive ever met in this community and sometimes they are nice but know 0 about the game or classes that dont glam for their erp weekend galore) and the ultimate raiders who threw a little $$ at the realnones and have a odd superiority complex.
My thoughts are that honestly people need to read shit more and stop trying to speed run with optimization on content you could literally dps down with quest gear most the time.
Yeah ive spoken out against alot of the elitism ive seen but it lead to people assuming i was the opposite which im just not. I think there is a middle ground everyone should strive to be at or around in a game were in certain content everyons contribution matters. And im not casual enough to suggest there is any excuse for not knowing your aoe rotation at level 90 . I also whilst trying to help people in the most sincere way possible encounter fragility way to often
@@MythSamaelFFXIV I agree, not knowing your skills by lv90 or hell by lv60/70 is unacceptable as you should at least read what you get and they make it obvious when something works better when used with something else. I don't need them to know every possible opener, pot timings, uptime tricks, or anything you expect from a savage raider. Casual shouldn't equal bad, it shouldn't be used as a denotation for skill level. There is a middle ground that most people don't accept or recognize and I am with you when I think the middle of being elite and actually just bad should be what most people want to be. Good enough to no be a burden and hamper your parties fun but not so invested and consumed you are spending multiple hours on training dummy rotations or riddled with performance anxiety.(which I can understand, it isn't easy to break out of that without the mentality of just doing it)
jesus I don't mean to essay but this topic gets my goat for some reason.
the Hall of the Novice isn't enough, lol. we need big giant Pokemon Center-style buildings in every major city with full classes for every single job. the training dummies are not enough, because they don't teach you what all your buttons do. it would really improve things if we could tell people "you uhh ever think about popping by the training area and practicing your rotation?"
because as a sprout the thing I realized is, if they don't know their rotation or even have a basic broken one... they aren't going to be adhering to mechanics and probably don't know what any of their moves do.
@xXluluchanelXx I agree it's why I think after 50 they should make a quest that requires you to go into a training session to utilize your kit on a basic level. But for some classes that only get complex after 70 I think people should make more of an effort to read their skills and do a little thinking in when they should use them. I also think they should have a pop up for trait upgrades that add or change the function of a skill. Dragoon suffers from this for newer players and some of the stuff post 60
Xenos is literally the least elitist guy you could have put your thumbnail.
I agree however ask anyone who hasnt actually watched his content to name an elitist and youll get his or Artharrs name
@@MythSamaelFFXIVreally? Xeno can be a bit gruff in how he states his opinion, but most of what he says is reasonable.
I dont disagree with you, I am a xeno fan
Imo the toxic positive players make this game almost unbearable. The elitist usually only comes out when you can't seem to do the absolute bare minimum. Tank stance, healer dps, aoe pacts, etc...
Nah I think they need each other to exist .
@MythSamael sure, but any type of advice can be considered elitism by these people.
I mean sure but anyone defending someone's mistake could be considered toxically casual / positive . It's 2 sides of the same coin and one can't exist without the other
Gotta run Aurum vale to test and see which players are toxic 😂
Aurum Vale XD the real great filter XD
/panically starts reading tool tips
XD dont oust yourself young lady !
Wait you mean the other people in Expert dungeons aren't NPCs??? shieeet
I don't disagree with you but honestly though, after playing this game long enough you start to give a shit less and less about things like 'Experts' that either you treat them like NPC runs or you simply don't do them (I mean hunts give better rewards anyway for your time). It's equally less worth my time trying to tell someone how to play only for them to likely abuse me than to just pump the DPS and basically solo the damn thing. In Extremes+ sure I'll give advice but I just cbf in any super casual content... not because I think it's fine but it's so mind off that it's hard to even convey the reasoning to play better because the content is just so easy.
I know right !
Elitism is way worse. Sure toxic positivity and bad players will mess up and be useless but they will rarely if ever show up in content where their inability ever matters. Meanwhile elitists and gatekeepers are a huge reason a lot of players never bother to set foot into high end content and their overly negative attitude will actively push people away from the game either from disuading new players from trying the game alltogether or by convincing existing players to be as cynical as them and leave.
Sure you have spaces like the r/ffxiv subreddit where its an absolute echo chamber and any criticism of the game runs you the risk of being perma banned because the mods are absolute fanboys who will silence any and all discussion that isnt completely positive but that is pretty much only an issue outside the game and rarely ever becomes an issue while actually playing the game unlike elitism.
I dont feel its way worse at all I think they need each other to exist, Its because of the toxically casual players who dont invest time in there rotation, dont try to improve, are happy to die to the same mechanic over and over again without asking why that the elitist feel the need to gatekeep etc etc
One cannot exist without the other because one causes the other .
So we should defend cure 1 fishing at lvl 90?
@@pod155 No thats not what im saying, what im saying is that some random cure 1 fishing in your leveling roulette is much less of a problem than toxic elitists gatekeeping an entire portion of the game for a large amount of people.
@popelipo6281 asking people to do the bear minimum in level roulette isn't gatekeeping. Like, when a dps come into a dungeon and hold all their buffs for the boss and not the trash and the tank die due to the healer running out of resources to keep them alive is no good. If someone point that they should be using their buffs to kill trash but they refuse to listen, maybe they need to be gatekept. Because enabling bad behavior through bad gameplay makes this game much worse.
@@pod155 I havnt said anyone is gatekeeping leveling roulettes. I am saying you can still clear your leveling roulettes with bad players without much issue but a lot of players refuse to touch ex trials or savage content because of toxic elitism. Bad players slightly inconvenience you elitism and gatekeeping completely lock players out of a good chunk of the game.
those 2 words together toxic and positive cancel each other out This actually began from a posters labeling the community just to good to positive .the origin of this meaning. I don't think this fits here. You will always get players with diff levels of play esp. esp due the length of this game.alone.
noo i tend to disagree u can very much have toxic positivity . Its a very real thing in alot of cases and this is one of them. It doesnt cancel itself out
sorry but you're wrong. the concept of toxic positivity is very much an understood phenomenon
Omg a good take :o
Just don't be a dickhead and try to be decent at the game you're playing with other people. Simple as.
Yup basically what it boils down to or alternatively stop being so fragile , Not everyone offering advice is deeply insulting you
I think you’re playing this game too much, bud.
meh i wish, dont get to play the hours some do
five seconds i cant understand a thing he says and the "CC" is shit
Sorry your having those troubles , I'm.not for everyone