P&S ModCast 294 - Law Enforcement Shotgun
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- Опубликовано: 18 сен 2024
- Primary & Secondary ModCast
The panel discusses aspects of shotguns in use with law enforcement.
Host: Matt Landfair
Panel:
Darryl Bolke
Erick Gelhaus
David Simerly
Lee Weems
Warren Wilson
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Bolke and Gelhaus are absolute treasures of firearm knowledge.
The shotgun experts have solved the problem of the rubber butt pads snagging on clothing and gear back in the 80's with gaffer tape. There is no need to round the stock; just add a wrap of gaffer tape. It is perfect. Unfortunately, the insular world of shotguns and the silos of vocational uses of shotguns has prevented consequential knowledge from spreading. Everybody has their own version of secret shotgun sauce they prefer, and very people have an open mind to good advice. IMHO, these P&S shows are great ways to listen and learn. My only wish is that more people would follow the channel.
Yeah me too. There's no shotgun discussions like this anywhere I else I can find.
I grew up as an 870 person. I was slave labor for the Sheriff to upgrade the 870s in the mid 80's with the flexi lifter. We were always taught to fully shuck the forend. I had pallets of 870s to upgrade.
I was an 870 fan until I purchased a 590 (not the super heavy 590A1). The ergonomics of the 590 are so much better. I know the forend wiggle scares people, but I had a chance to learn why the forend wiggle is there. It is there on purpose to avoid jamming, NOT a sign of poor quality.
I also had a chance to work with the Remington and Mossberg engineers before they died or became senile. Those engineers discussed how the inertial bar locks work, and that is why it is so important to pull-pull. Pull on the stock with the firing grip, and pull on the forend. That way the inertial lock can prevent out of battery failures due to hangfires. That also prevents short shucking AND improves cycle times. It also prevents bruising, because there is no F-dot-dS into the skin of the shoulder. The engineers were smart for a reason, but many have never learned how and why the inertia locks are there. That is where the push-pull idea came from. The OOB problems for a LH shooter are troubling.
I'm just finishing up Jim Cirillo's Tales From the Stakeout Squad. Lots of LE shotgun stories from back in the day.
I appreciated the discussions so much. I was fortunate enough to be there for the different shotgun waves of popularity since the 80's. The "modern" shotguns were designed in the 50's, and the modernization we have today began in the 80's. IMHO, ergonomics is the next focus for shotguns, but nobody listens to engineers. What do the engineers know? The HFE improvements to shotguns have been incredible, and derp has also set us back. Good communication like these shows makes things so much better.
I believe that the next wave of shotgun improvements will be based on improving the stock weld, changing the grip and LOP with modern plastics instead of wood or non-modular hollow plastic stocks ...so red dot sights can be used. MUXing down a target is so much easier with a red dot sight. That is what the targeting engineers for the Navy taught to those in the aircraft and the expert shooters. Once a target is MUXed the moving target is nearly stopped as the carrier frequency (swing) is stripped away. Shotguns were the way the Navy pilots learned how to target in the frequency domain, because shotguns are tangible to the average man with moving targets that eed MUXing tracking systems. Only then, could the guidance of munitions be understood.
Great Podcast - I had many a conversation about 12 ga, with Bill Allard from the NYPD Stake Out Squad. We used them in NYPDESU with great success. Even used on dangerous game in NYC.
I really wish 20 gauge had more Leo and self defense loads out there I think it would make a well rounded gauge for Leo use
I was raised on shotguns for any necessary application , from small game to home defense . Modern advancement just keeps making them better. Ty for your overview from a professional perspective.
I agree that the OK CLEET firearms instructor has a high wash out. There were 16 in it I believe when I went to phase 1, and three passed.
Around 2:07:00, Erick Gelhaus mentions the Briley forend. I have one for my 1301 and it has some design problems. Briley makes the same aluminum M-LOK forend for at least eight different shotguns, but changes an end-piece so it can interface with all the different receivers. On the 1301 the forend twists very easily because, unlike the factory forend, the end-piece doesn't grip around the bolt carrier's rails. Briley's official "fix" is to torque the bejesus out of the forend cap, but they should have designed a better end-piece. The other issue is that the Briley forend is very chunky vs. the factory forend. Sure, it's nice to have over 50 M-LOK slots to attach accessories, but how many enablers do you need to add? Overall, I prefer the factory handguard, and I am looking into alternatives to mount a light.
How about Aridus?
I'd love to get my hands on one, but Langdon Tactical keeps buying all the stock, lol. One day I'll get one. I already have the Aridus SGA stock adapter and it works well.
Long time no see lee, manos arribas amigo
If your department did not allow you to carry 2 shotguns with different loads, how would you go about choosing buck vs slug? Thank you
The shotgun is such a great tool in the hands of a trained person. Hence the word trained. To many own them too many don't truly understand or work them. But throw a bunch of shit on them and load them with 00buck seems to be the standard for the Insta-google-tweet people
It's unfortunate how departments will hold equipment in reserve until something happens. Still happening to this day.
I get so angry when another law enforcement instructor has to show off (his ignorance) by mistreating female Cadets and Police Officers with shotguns. As a small child I learned how to use an 870 the real way, competently and without getting sore or injured. The Naval Officers taught us how to use shotguns as children. If a 55 pound adolescent boy can run a 12 gauge 870 all day, then with competent instruction a female Police Officer can run an 870 or 590. Very few police instructors are competent; most are terrible and worse. There are a small amount of good ones. The problem has reached the point where the shotgun training must be outsourced from law enforcement to civilian instructors. I get so angry when a day of shotgun training for the cops is a day of OT fraud and horrible teaching methods. That would never fly with civilian training. An 8 hour class in the civilian world is 10-11 hours of great instruction and coaching. The female cops that take a civilian class in the shotgun methods do so well. Those same female cops receive incompetent or malicious training from the academy and their departments. I hear, "Let's hurt this female cop to show her..." way too often by the police instructors. That is so unethical and common. Teach women and children how to properly use a shotgun ...or get out of the business. We cannot allow poor shotgun training, anymore. Why are 14-1/2" LOP shotgun stocks even made? It is so sad.