Just draw the out is said mockingly while Believe in the heart of the cards is said encouragingly. Literally speaking they mean the same thing, but the tone with how they are (commonly) said changes the meaning completely.
A coin flip game!? (master duel intensifies). But seriously I went on a four-game lose Streak because I lost the coin toss every time but then I went on four game win streak because I won the coin toss every time.
I felt this. Just go read, for example, the feature match that PAK played in his top 8 piloting Tearlament Danger Spright vs Spright. One of the games literally was just PAK setting a board, his opponent drawing a card, and conceding to game 3. That feels like dogshit.
Also, it's not just the first turn concede that sucks, it's the 5-10 minutes of solitaire. And it's especially bad when it's Tears because even Tear players don't know what their line is gonna be because of all the random mills.
@@deathpyre42 as someone who’s playing Danger Tear Spright, I genuinely feel so bad for my opponent because it’s them just sitting there for 10 minutes while I resolve everything. I deadass came back to Yugioh after 9 years and it feels like every freaking deck does this and now with Tear and Spright and Branded Bystial it sucks.
@@xxSpngebnexx If it wasn't those 3 decks, it would be the ones before them or control decks like Floowandereeze, which is probably even worse. The floodgates are even more toxic than generic interruptions and generic hand traps. Even back in 2008, Lightsworn or Destiny DAD decks floored other decks in about 3 turns. Those decks had a lot less consistency and starters than flooded the board, so even though the decks felt much stronger than others, every duel started and ended differently, even though a random JD or DAD or Crush Card came in to clutch the game. To get the game more towards that state, there needs to be a ban on generic cards. Generic interruptions, generic negations, generic hand traps, generic board wipes, generic floodgates, generic anything. It's inevitable decks will summon their bosses easier from the Extra Deck, but every deck summoning Apoloussa probably isn't healthy, or running triple Ash, Imperm, Veiler, Ogre, Gamma, etc isn't either. If only one deck could actually use Mystic Mine (say, if you had to reveal an Exodia piece, etc), we wouldn't have this problem.
It kind of feels like a coping mechanism to an overarching problem with how the modern game is played out. Your opening 5 cards heavily dictates the gameplay experience you're going to have depending on factors like 'Did you open enough hand traps' or as discussed 'Did you draw the out' in relation to going 1st or 2nd, which is another topic altogether with the die roll. It's become such a major deciding factor over recent years that players have naturally grown a hatred towards losing the die roll whereas in the past it was simply just to see who makes the 1st move and with the back and forth nature of old Yugioh, the die roll felt less impactful at least in comparison to the modern day. That's how I feel atleast.
The main problem is the design of the game, its so much easier to power creep in a game that has no cost/limit to play cards. If enemy doesn't draw "the out", What stopping you from playing 30 main deck cards and 13 extra cards in the opening turn? Nothing.
In older format the most benefit a Turn 1 player got was "Oooh I actually get to use Traps before my Opponent" while going second meant "Oooh I get an extra card and get to Attack first" Now it's..."Oooooh I get to spend 15 minutes building a board of Negates and a Towers and laugh at my opponent scooping or rage quit when they draw Ra/DRNM/Lightning Storm/Duster/Etc" and the second player go "Oooh I drew all my Kaiju/Imperm/Ash/Veiler/DRNM/Etc cards and a Combo Starter!" Or "Welp I drew nothing to Out a Board, I scoop"
@@nytecrow6452 in today yugioh 90% of all matches are decided on the opening hand, cuz its either 1 card combo, hand traps, handtrap counters, or blowout cards. might as well play poker to skip the 20 min of combo masturbating.
This kind of stuff is why us yugi boomers like your rare hunter series. The games are slower, easier to follow, effect text isn't microscopic(mostly), etc.
in 2003 didn't everyone have to deal with yata lock? The duels legit just took longer, I don't know why you think the game is better when it was less diverse for so long. Just because games end quicker doesn't mean that it is worse, it just means I don't have to deal with 2 hour matches lol.
I felt this when I gave Master Duel a try. Most games ended in a few turns/were decided. But the turns take so long with all the draw, searching and combos going on. I describe to other old school players as its still fun to play, but lost the fun to be played against. My top target of blame is having it become so easy to establish such board states. Creating a game removed of the backrow with how many critical handtraps there are. They're mandatory as letting any modern deck do as they please with a non-bricking hand is often a loss as means of getting an out are restricted by then.
I totally agree with your mindset! Konami put skill drain at 3 and left mystic mine untouched to force players to use backrow removal or even main them, to slow down combo decks, or decrease efficiency and consistency of combos.
@@kimjung-un8204 I'm guessing they're hoping that people will stop pretending those cards don't exist and try to play around them. Seems to be a lot of resistance to that, though.
@@joplin4434 I mean Master Peace can absolutely come back. Card is not that impressive in today's meta game and Draco's are nowhere near as good as they were in 2017 and MP will not change that.
I’m glad you keep talking about this stuff, this has been a big problem for a while but people dont seem to bring it up. The power creep is so high it makes games heavily luck based, and leads to fast, unfun, frustrating games
Shout-out to DPYGO for his stream involving that very quote! And also to KingScarlet for his Mystic Mined song. (｡•̀ᴗ-)✧ Just DRAW one of your non-searchable outs, BRO! Honestly, it's been memed along with Jesse Kotton's infamous tweet about Mystic Mine XD
Ah, mystic mine. Paired with mysterune, it’s even HARDER to out, because at least without mysterune you can feasibly wait to draw s/t removal, but mysterune banishes a bunch of cards from your deck so they’re likely to just banish the s/t removal.
The master duel subreddit is notorious for this. If I had a dollar for every time I had to explain to someone how “draw the out, bro” is not a valid argument 🙄
God, they only want to play the game one way. I on the other hand stare at Felgrand Dragon and try to figure out what I can do with him. Still thinking on making a Level 7 or 8 Synchro Fusion Dragon deck, but I don't really have a foundation for it yet.
They also complain if you complain about people using meta in casual matches, all I did was post a screenshot of a board full of negates saying this is supposed to be casual and got a bunch of hate saying casual means you can use whatever deck you want and to use better decks
When the game was slower, drawing the out was a more reasonable thing to say. Like "oh, youre getting locked down by gravity bind or level limit? Ok, you have multiple outs in your deck, all you gotta do is play defensively and survive for the next 5 or however many turns, to get your spell/trap removal" "is the spirit reaper keeping you at bay in your monster heavy deck? That sucks, but only time this is a dangerous situation is in a monster heavy deck and monster heavy decks can put out big monsters so that your opponent cant attack either or summon any other monsters without taking damage, and you'l eventually draw a card that stops the stare down. Worst case you eat a raigeki, which is why you keep some back up in your hand or run protection." But since the game sped up exponentially, its less "oh, you can get the out in the next 5-10 turns dont worry" and more "can you draw the out this turn before I OTK you." Like, it went from "ok, you can get your MST in the next 5 turns to out the level limit" to "alright, but you can probably get your kaiju to out the Towers." To "oh boy, do you have dark ruler in your starting hand?" You have much less time to draw the out, and simply drawing into your out is no longer a viable option. Its kind of like saying "just run asura priest against Spright, all of the monsters have low stats, you'll clear their board easily"
"Just use backrow removal" just use MST, Cosmic Cyclone, Harpies Feather Duster, Lightning Storm. Yeah and my backrow removal gets negated due to the spam fest of my opps traps🗿
I have something to add to the backrow removal part: Most traps which see play like d-barrier or eradicator are normal traps, which means that your opponent can just chain them. Which makes them even worse.
It's the exact same thing as the problem with hand traps. Yeah, I get that hand traps limit the go-first problem and introduce interactivity early, but truth is you either have it, or you don't. Like you said: games feel better when they're wars of attrition, and you can slowly, bit by bit maximize your resources to overcome your opponent. I just don't see a clear path to making modern Yugioh resemble that gameplay loop in the slightest. Developing alternative formats for players who want to play them still intrigues me as a possible solution, though
I have simply taken to Lava Goleming and Evenly Matching my problems away. I don't necessarily like that I have to do that, but that's the game atm. I would definitely like it if the game was less all or nothing from the get go.
Adopting a "turn 2 player gets a mulligan" system would make going second stronger but it wouldn't fix the fundamental issues. Konami's design philosophy also inherently hurts weaker decks because ones that aren't as compact don't have the luxury of being able to throw in like 8 board breaking cards.
Imagine if in the anime, instead of Yugi saying "believe in the heart of the cards" he just tells everyone to just "draw the out" "JUST DRAW THE OUT JOEY"
I really think Yu-Gi-Oh should get a mulligan rule. Going first is such an incredibly large advantage. A full one time 5 card for 5 card mulligan should definitely be implemented because of how draw dependant most formats get
I‘ve thought about it myself a lot, however, do you really want your opponent d.shufting you every game 3? Seems dangerous with how many generically good floodgate effects there are. In magic, where there is a mulligan, it’s warranted for the reason that there are more avenues to brick and that silver bullets are not that backbreaking and generic like in yugi. If they were to allow mulligans, they should definitely not be free and there should have to be a huge update to the banlist. Or that’s what I think. My real grudge is with the time rules tho, why are they so bad? Please konami, copy litterally any other tcg‘s notes on that one.
@@Haimi-fv5xj IDK about silver bullets not being back breaking in MTG honestly. As A Teemur Crashcade player T3feri ties my spine in a bow, snaps my legs, smashes my kneecaps, shatters my hand bones, then leaves me there to rot. I really hate a resolved T3feri THANK GOD FOR FON!
@@lazargodragonborn5058 man... I'm sorry to hear that. Didn't know teferi was such a problem. I stopped caring about 1v1 magic when they started adding pw to the game like hootcakes. I keep in touch with the game through channels like the Professor's but I can't completely grasp the impact of 2 sets of modern horizon.
@@Haimi-fv5xj T3feri with that static text of "Your opponent can only cast spells when they could cast a sorcery spell" absolutely shoved any cascade plans straight in the trash as you can't actually cast the spell you cascade into that and it also stops any instant speed interaction so no interaction can be had it's tough. Edit: Also T3feri is the Teferi from War of the Spark
Technically when you start a duel you have a chance to draw an out. Backrow removal, a hand trap, list goes on. We’ve reached the point in Yugioh where if you do not draw a staple out in your opening hand, scoop.
I feel the same about the game, i came back like 2 months ago from years of no playing and my fist impression was "wow, the player that has the most stacked hand wins" or if you just by rng got the perfect card in the opening hand, its kinda frustrating...glad to see that im not the only one
"Just draw the out" is too real to be a joke. Yugioh in 2022 is a deck building game, not a card battling game, and I don't think there's much argument to make against that. The most hopeless part is that, how do you fix it at this point, without just continued power creep and digging the hole deeper? There's no getting back what we once had, and it sucks.
Look, i play several cardgames and i can confidently say that ygo isnt in too bad of a place, Pokémon is gold right now and Magic is just in an awful place, Digimon feels unfulfulling to play because of Rookie rush. YGO has a Lot of nostalgia but id rather take current meta than hanehane/Man Eater/trap hold spam meta
That's fair, and I'll admit I don't have as much experience with other TCGs as I do Yugioh. I'm with you that the repetitive set-pass OG meta is unfun in its own right, but personally I feel like too many people overlook the middle years of the game. That early Zexal era, that was peak Yugioh IMO
Needing to draw the out is the reason I completely fell out of competitive yugioh and now only play casually while strongly gravitating towards healthier tcgs
Nice conversation, as always. One thing that really irks me though is you (and many other players) are using the term "hand loop" wrong here. What you are referring to is a "hand rip." A "hand loop" is like the old X-Saber Gottoms hand loop that could literally loop it infininitely to rip all cards from the opponents hand. When its a singular or finite effect, its referred to as a rip. You "rip" a card out of your opponent's hand. You "rip" 3 cards with the Trishula combo. Sorry if this seems a bit excessive, but I played Gottoms Hand Loop and Gustkraken Hand Loop and Trishula Hand Loop, so its just a pet peeve of mine lol Anyway, great content as always!
If konami wants players to actually maindeck spell/trap removal, they need to transfer some of the combo decks' boss monsters' power to (Continuous) spell/traps, and make those spell/traps be searched as part of the combo.
I‘d argue they are already doing that. In my locals cosmic cyclone is the literal best flex spot to play besides called by. And not because people are spamming mystic mines, but because it’s more often than not the only card that allows you to completely turn the tables on your opponent. To make it clear, my locals is very varied and very competitive; for instance, last locals my opponent won because he took too long to end his turn on a board that I had completely cleared and had left him with no cards in hand and no effects. I play mathmech so I ping myself for 2k every time. I simply just had to say draw, standby, main, battlephase and I would have won, but time was called on his turn still. He took the game, he felt bad about it but not bad enough to concede it to me. That’s just one example of my locals where cosmic cyclone is the literal best card to run maindeck. I could give you lots of examples where cosmic is insane, but we’d be sitting here for ages so instead why not give it a spin and find out for yourself? You‘ll see what I mean. I always find place for 2 and I‘ve never had reason to take them out and have yet to lose game 1 to floodgate.deck
I mean they kinda doing that, Swordsoul Blackout, Tearlaments trap, Chuche, Smasher, All of Floo spell/trap are major threat. Or going even further we also have pendulumgraph, D/D headhunt + dark contract (pop contract then Machinex can't activate effect), Salamangreat Roar + Rage, etc... People just think: well probably I can put enough gas to play past them cause yeah putting 3 no searchable cards in to remove 1 of their searchable card doesn't sound that profitable.
@@Harmonic14 I disagree. When I say competitive, I mean people trying to win at all costs except maybe by cheating (god I hope they don't). We are not in a tier 0 format yet. When I say diverese I mean you are not guaranteed to play 5/5 times against tear and spright. There are a bunch of tearlaments players and a bunch of spright players. Otherwise there's the 1 Marincess player, the 1 Despia player, the 1 Floo player, I'm the guy representing analysis for applications.deck, etc. I'd say that's as diverse as it get right now... sadly.
@@Rahnonymous exactly. One of my least favorite decks to go against is Exodia, believe it or not. If you don’t draw Ash, or anything to counter all the drawing, then you might as well Surrender. That’s not fun. That’s bullshit.
I think this sort of thing needs to be leaned into even more. To change the way the game is played add more cards that require spell and trap removal to slow the game down a little bit but find a way to do it that wont completely kill the overfocused efficiency of current meta decks that have such a glaring weakness to as card that can lose to a single MST. TLDR just make it so meta decks want to have more spell and trap removal
One aspect of why "draw the out" is so much worse in modern yugioh compared to the old old days is the fact that games were longer giving you more turns and more chances to draw the out, compared to modern yugioh where often times, if you don't draw the right card on your very next turn the game may already be over. However, I don't think this is quite the real problem, because one example is something like mystic mine which can play to stall out the game for a long time, giving you many chances to draw the out, while still feeling just as sacky as situations where you only have 1 or 2 turns to draw the out. Instead, what I think is the real root of the problem isn't the speed of modern yugioh but the consistency of modern yugioh. While on the other hand, counterplay/boardbreaking is still largely luck of the draw. This inherent inconsistency of "drawing the out" didn't feel as bad back when the prospect of building a board or reaching a win con was equally inconsistent. The odds of making a big play at any point was matched by a roughly equal odds of your opponent having the right card to answer you, and this didn't feel as bad because both sides had similar odds. Nowadays however, big plays are almost guaranteed every turn, but it's still the same odds for your opponent to be able to answer you. This feels bad for both players, because on one side of the table it sucks that if you don't draw the right card you just loose, and on the other side of a table it sucks that your super consistent combo suddenly fails just because your opponent got lucky.
A good point that you brought up is that not every deck can cover everything. If Dark Ruler No More can screw you, having a Solemn Judgement just in case may help you since that isn't a monster effect. As a bonus you can stop something else with it. Otherwise you'll have to accept that Dark Ruler No More will just kill you.
Yeah but in this case you’d still have to have drawn the solemn judgment aka the “out” to dark ruler. Every game especially pre siding is always gonna have some element of “oh he really had THAT card exactly did he?” And that’s just kinda sad. You can’t prepare for everything best you can do is think about what people are most likely gonna be running and try to have a strategy that doesn’t lose to those cards outright. But yeah no matter what you do there is always gonna be that game where you do just get dark rulers when you have 5 monster negates and 2 cards in hand, but all three judgments are stuck in the main deck.
Players have been arguing with counter plays since forever and its crazy that even to this day not enough understand that possible counter plays are no arguement against certain cards / combos being to strong. Mystic Mine for example has another big problem: The YGO TCG has evolved to a game where monster effects are very strong, traps being mostly to slow so players had to get / have to play handtraps instead. This leads to a game where you dont really want to play S/T removal, its simply not good enough anymore. Sure you can side it in but then it can be already to late. Another big problem is the speed of the game and the crazy combos even just two cards can allow you to do. While consistency and options are healthy for the game it has to be balanced well and this is where Konami messed up big time over the years. Some games can literally be decided by just comparing opening hands, yes there are still grindy games but not to the level as it used to be. YGO nowadays is really more learning then doing.
Basically agreed with everything you said. As a yugiboomer, there were a balance between the monsters (main bodies), spells (support), traps (counter-play). Monster effects started creeping in and taking over the other two functionalities, but they also can ladder themselves unlike spell/trap through Extra Deck summoning mechanics. The reason why Dark Ruler No More and Forbidden Droplet and works is because it inverts the power creep by monster effects by disallowing that interaction. More Spell/Trap should follow this, especially in an disadvantaged state. Some cards in Photon Hypernova like Weight Measuring is like a not so restricted Evenly Matched and also has the "opponent sends monsters" to go around innate protection as well
From a mine runick deck out player, the face of my oponent when i protect my board with huggin from harpies feather Duster and use cursed Seal of the forbidden Spell on his cosmic cyclone is priceless
I definitely resonate with the feeling that these powerful megatin cards make everything feel unimpressive. It just isn’t interesting to see my deck entirely shut down when my opponent draws one card, sets up, then I have to hope I draw the one card. Nothing I can do is cool enough to not just completely lose to one card anymore and it just makes it hard to put my heart into things. I just disengage from the game and wonder why I’m even playing.
wouldn't that be how your opponent feels watching you build your board if they don't have an out? seems like modern yugioh is literally if players draws their out in turn two they win, if not person going first wins
The deck I play on master duel rarely struggles with these issues because I do play four spell/trap removal cards. but I’ve always preferred old-school formats, so I prioritize those cards (and battle traps) when I’m building. And somehow it works.
or could be someone who isnt sheeping into what everyone thinks is good, almost made it out of plat with dark magician and other uncommon decks just never have enough drive or time to grind a rank only meta kids care about
@@justthinkingthoughts6483 lol no. Anyone above gold typically removes backrow before going for lethal. This is literally just a gold player. And nothing wrong with that as it's the most fun bracket. But this video is really talking about things you see in plat and Diamond.
My dinomorphia deck with its strong floodgates still makes the meta kids cry lol. They deserve to have a bad time for being sheep. But I do feel bad when my rexterm doesn’t let the local hero kid play :(
You can't draw the out if you don't run the out. Sweaty Yugioh players have stopped running basic removal and instead have become too reliant on omni-negates and hand traps. You get what you deserve.
Dude it's been that way since BA, Kozmos era. Eventually archetypes will evolve to have all sorts of outs. Rn this is the way. I remember back in the day getting a special from the deck was OP. Nowadays it's the turn
¨Just Draw the out¨Is the stupiest phrase I ever heard in Yu-gi-oh! Because ofcourse I can manipulate the odds of drawing what I need in a disadvantages gamestate the isnt cheating Whoever said that first hope he have and unoperable tumor in its spinalcord.
I'm at locals round 1 tournament putting away my rogue deck because it lost to 1 ash blossom then i walk over to my friends table where he's 0-1 against mystic mine with 4 minutes left and i tell him, "Just draw the out"
Mystic Mine is still not as oppressive as sitting through 10 mins of letting your opponent summon 15 monsters and end with 4 unkillable boss monsters that will negative whatever you play on your turn and they just OTK you on their turn
@@joplin4434 there’s objectively more spell and trap removal than there are ways to get over unkillable boss monsters. Mystic mine doesn’t have built in protection bro
@@brianlowe904 there is 1 (one) monster that resists being tributed in Darkest Diabolos, and your deck must suck to lose to it lmao There are 7 kaijus, lava golem, sphere mode and volcanic queen, meaning you get 30 cards that do the trick. No one is running 30 MST likes lmao Mystic mine is just Kaiser Colisseum but better, and we all know where Kayce is.
Yeah, but there are ways to dissrupt that. Most decks still get hurt by a well placed Ash/Ogre or getting Nib'd. I agree that "draw the out" is dumb, but If you are consistently losing to mildly Strong boards that you have deck building problems, Ive broken Strong Meta Tearla endboards with a well placed Crow in a Mecha Phantom Beast deck.
Power creep for turn 1 "I win" boards has lead to power creep for the outs. The outs progressively increasing in power to attempt to keep up with turn 1 boards forces out any strategy that can't either play through multiple negates/handtraps/interactions or simpler/more streamlined decks. Yamato pass is severely power creeped yes but unless you have multiple outs to a board/handtraps it's likely to not even resolve. Decks just aren't allowed to be simple on their own turn anymore unless it's specifically Eldlitch/Altergeist/Runic but that's only because they are able to keep up in card advantage/resources in rotation where other trap decks cannot do as efficiently.
Big difference between "I need a destiny draw or I lose right now" compared to "I hope I get the out soon" Watching people's progression or seal series on YT, you can see those moments where someone is stuck but they still have a few turns to try and draw something, and maybe they can even do small set ups to stall out an extra turn or two.
1:19 Here's the problem. Not everyone has access to those cards. Not everyone can draw those cards. "Drawing the Out" means nothing if you can't use it, get to it in time, or even have that card in your possession.
Than Just play kitchen table? Yugioh is not even that expensive, MTG you need to spend thousands on fucking lands before even starting to build your deck Pokémon is cheap, tho and even rogue decks get a Fair shot because the game doesnt have out of turn interactions
Then theres also a floodgate card (can't remember the name) that allows your opponent to look at the top 3 cards of your deck and restack them. So the whole "draw the out" thing is irrelevant when the dude uses it. Edit: the card is called Goddess Skuld's Oracle
That's the thing. We shouldn't have to rely on luck(draw the out) just to be able to play the game. This is another symptom of how fast the game has gotten in recent years. The game ends so fast you have to draw the out immediately or lose right there. It just takes all the skill and fun out of the game and becomes a quick game of rock, paper, scissors. It's out of your control and it's mostly luck based now and it sucks that this is what Yugioh has turned into. Konami needs to make major changes and stop digging this hole further.
I think the bigger problem is what happens after you "draw the out". Some decks can very easily come back from a field wipe in one turn, while others like combo decks will just straight up lose. Ive been thinking that it might be fun/healthier for the game if you could select one card from your deck at the start of the game to put in your hand (you'd pick one card, then draw 4 more if you go first). In the first duel, the assumption would be that you just run a generic good card since you don't know what type of deck your opponent is running. Duel 2, you can pick whatever the "out" would be, but since your opponent knows what you're trying to do, they could pick an "out" to your "out". For example, duel 1 both players probably pick something like an ash blossom or a Gamma, player 1 find that player 2 uses a combo deck, player 2 find that player 1 uses a trap deck. Player 1 wins the duel, so player 2 will go first in duel 2. After side decking, player 1 will likely pick something like Nibiru or Dark Ruler No More as their starting card since they are going second, and they know that their opponent relies on combos. Player 2 will likely expect this, so after siding and picking their own card, they have to choose whether they want something to negate that "out" like crossout designator (would also require them to side in the cards they want to negate), or if they will pick a counter to a trap deck like feather duster / cyclone and alter their playstyle to leave a more modest board and rely on other ways to win after turn 1. There is still some RNG, but at least what happens ends up being a direct result of whatever card the player decided to guarantee for themselves in their starting hand. Then for the third duel (assuming 1:1 in a best of 3), they would have to make a similar decision but this time switching who goes first, completely changing what they may decide to guarantee themselves. Yeah, this idea may be flawed, but I still think it would be much more interesting/fair than the general "just draw the out" where you straight up lose if you don't have the exact counter that you need for a random card.
The really annoying one is Floo running Barrier Statue in Master Duel. I mainly play Blue-Eyes and Dark Magician after hardly playing after GX. The last product I bought was Saga of Blue-Eyes White Dragon and kept an eye on new mechanics, especially with Legacy of the Duelist: Link Evolution and Duel Links. Now I am properly playing Blue-Eyes and Dark Magician in Master Duel, slowly building up my collection in order to play a variety of decks, and everything is frustrating. Modern decks do lots of ridiculous stuff, and my decks just lose to floodgates, handtraps, and/or negates. Yu-Gi-Oh! has just become stop your opponent from playing the game.
@@yowza9638 Barrier Statue in of itself isn't the problem. You can just normal summon a monster and walk over it. The problem is the six negates they have to negate that normal summon...
Yugioh was always like that, Floodgates, Handtraps and Negates are literally everything in the game not named Beatdown, so If your deck cant deal with literally anything than you need to Go back to the drawing board. People used to run Man Eater Bugs, Acid Trap Roles and every other kind of degenerate removal back in the day, at least now you can decently protect stuff
The fun thing about yugioh is using the parts of your deck to dissolve a strong board. It’s like they build a castle and you have to invade it. Sure you can draw the out and make it easier on yourself, but I often find myself in these grindy games more often than not.
@@GuilhermeDiGiorgi yeah, maybe vs a deck like swordsoul or branded despia you can still use your engine card to grind and break their board, but againts deck like tear and spirght its just impossible, not to mention if they manage to summon monster with floodgates effect like winda on top of that, you better just move on to the next game
Me and my friend play decent archetypes but purposefully avoid floodgates and stuff because, it’s supposed to be an interactive game in my eyes. How do you know if your decks any good if you lock your opponent out from playing? We still find ourselves needing the perfect draw from time to time and it’s crazy fun when you see the card you’ve been praying for 😁
Mystic Mine will ALWAYS be a necessary evil as long as multi-negate boards exist. Fucked up cards that auto-bait negates are 100% ok and NEED to exist when turn one plays allow the setup of otherwise unbreakable boards. The premise of your argument effectively boils down to "You can't answer everything problematic at once within 40 cards and that's a problem". I would argue that that's what your side deck is for. Mystic Mine Turbo should NOT be winning games 2 and 3 if you get hoed game 1 because you can straight up side in anti-backrow cards and explode them for choosing to play such a passive do-nothing deck. Outside of that strategy, I argue that Mine has a very worthwhile purpose of allowing you to deal with combo boards by playing cards the opponent HAS to negate before making your own board to deal with theirs. DRNM, Droplet, and Nibiru shouldn't be the ONLY cards useful to that effect. (I know there are others, but these are THE most universal). ---- On the topic of the problem that Yugioh currently faces, I feel that the prevalence of monsters with floodgate style effects and negate effects are what created this problem in the first place. These effects on easily summoned bodies is a HUGE problem and needed to be addressed in a substantive way a long LONG time ago. I think most of these cards act as something of a bandaid to a bullet wound. DRNM beats EVERY combo board, but I'd argue that a card like DRNM should frankly have never NEEDED to exist in the first place because bodies shouldn't be able to negate.
@@bl00by_ yeah, because you have big negation hands. A better raigeki, a nope to any form of search, a nope to any form of draw, plenty of nope to monster effects, and are almost completely immune to opposing negation. As a reminder, Handtraps used to be mostly a sidedeck option, not a main deck one.
@@N12015 If that was the reason why decks moved away from negates then we would've done that years ago already. Yet formats like secret slayers or the adventure pile thing existed.
Yugioh is a tale of 2 games either you win opening hand or you prevent your opponent from playing long enough that they quit. But no matter the outcome only 1 person gets to play.
I'm just a yugioh onlooker who's played hearthstone and mtg for a while. Looking back to the first few sets of ygo, it felt like the game designers had no idea how the game would actually be played. There were so many monsters with different attack and defense stats as if we were going to play for tempo and board or something. In reality it came down to playing the 1800 or 2500 beat stick first and winning. It seems like modern day YGO is the same thing except now its turned up to 11. Is it a game of back and forth interaction? It really doesnt sound like one.
Can't wait to see it get banned to -1 copies, where the judge has to validate you don't run it every single match, and mystic mine gets an anti-ban, where you can run it at 4 copies
I don't think people understand Konam's purpose in making mystic mine is just exactly that...to draw the unsearchable out. I see alot of people commenting the solution is to make searchable outs...that is exactly the opposite of konami's point of making this card
Completely agree. Feels like a contest of "YOU can't play!" (ominegate and bounce spam) "No, YOU can't play!" (DRNM) "No, YOU CAN'T play!" (Floodgate) "No, you!" (Evenly Matched). Either way, one person's deck is going to utterly fail to function whereas in old Yugioh, to varying degrees, both decks got to at least somewhat realize their gameplan.
Konami should push the game towards 5ds era where protection easily accessible. Rather than having OTK and FTK cards, develop cards that promote the ability to establish a board and protect your board rather than create a board and destroy your opponent without giving them a chance to play the game.
This is honestly a silly argument. There really never should've been such a focus on "consistency" for combos to begin with. If you want consistency, you're playing the wrong game. Wrong entire genre of game, in fact. RNG is supposed to matter. If you don't want randomness then go ahead and play with friends with no shuffling and freely stack your decks however you want. Part of the fun of things like turn based JRPGs that involve things like luck stats and card games (including the gambling kind) is using the math of things to your advantage. If you know exactly how it's going to go down, why even play? Pulling what you need when you need it is supposed to be part of the fun. Now don't get me wrong, the ability for stuff to combo after returning from 2005 in 2019 I do find fun but a decrease in consistency for most things wouldn't hurt and is actually the reason so many ED cards need errata. You SHOULDN'T be able to go into most of them so easily. In other words, there should be more luck of the draw to using them instead of just spamming highly consistent engines/archetypes. Yes, there are always going to be people who just sit down and do the math so they can do that to the best of their ability. And you should do that for whatever you're using as well. But crying about not having the out sometimes just means games of chance AKA anything with any kind of randomization are not for the person complaining.
When I am watching my opponent build a huge, ultra-powerful board, and my hand doesn't have the cards to handle it, I just tell myself "Well, the top card of my deck is a Lava Golem, so it's fine." You can guess how often that's actually true, but it's my mantra. That said, in my 30+ traps Eldlich deck (no hand traps), if not for enemy decks that can destroy my spells/traps as a quick effect, most of the time I'm content to go second just setting 4-5 cards, even into a huge board. It's mostly the effects that can quick-effect destroy my set cards that really hurt me. But for some of those, there isn't "the out". I mean, what am I gonna do, play Night Beam to stop Branded in Red for Guardian Chimera, just so that I can keep four set cards? If I have to maindeck Night Beam in Master Duel, then I'm sorry, but I should just go and play Magic at that point. (This is where you tell me to play Branded Eldlich and pack Crossout for that, I suppose.)
"Just draw the out." "Then you built your deck wrong." "You should've accounted for [insert extremely niche card]." "Play a better archetype." These few responses I've seen time and time again come across as very dismissive of the actual problem, and don't actually contribute to solving it
That's the part of the community which just repeats stuff they heard from yugitubers as if they were parots. With other words the people the last Aps+ vid was about lol
People dont notice, but you dont need to play around a lot of stuff on YGO like you to in other cardgames, stuff like Liliana of Veil in MTG would make the average YGO player lose their shit, some endboards in mtg just have no outs other than some super situational negation that either or color doesnt have or you Just dont run It because draws are much more important so you couldnt afford the brick
I mean, I use "Draw the out" as like a heart of the cards moment, however, in the modernized YGO formats, it's getting harder to just draw the out. There is an out to everything though from what I can tell, it's just hard to know if you'll get the chance to use it or not.
Hand looping is sus now because of Tear specifically, but even before then, it's generally weak to disruption. Also, if all you're doing is ripping cards, your end board probably isn't anything special unless you are exactly Six Sam infinite comboing. Lots of decks have one card full combo lines as well, so there is no guarantee that yeeting most or all of the cards in their hand will stop them from playing either way.
It does feel like majority of matches come down to lucky draws rather than skill. Yes, even within optimized decks. It feels like if you didn't open something that would stop the opponents incredibly oppressive gameplan - you've already lost. Incredibly more so for non-meta decks.
From the moment one-card combos became the norm for meta decks and those decks became able to run upwards of 15 handtraps/tech cards, "just draw the out" became absolutely unreasonable.
Hot Take: "Just draw the out, bro!" is the modern (and inferior) version of "Believe in the Heart of the Cards!" 😆
Wait a min?! Atem didn't "Destiny Draw" he was just "Drawing the Out" the whole time!! 😝
No cap
So true.
Now I'll never hear it the same again.
Just draw the out is said mockingly while Believe in the heart of the cards is said encouragingly.
Literally speaking they mean the same thing, but the tone with how they are (commonly) said changes the meaning completely.
Kaiba: Just draw the out, Yugi
Yugi: *Draws the out*
Kaiba: 👀
heart of the cards babyyyyy
Step 1: Draw the out
Step 2: Out the board
Step 3: They build it back up
Step 4: Suffer a mid-life crisis
Just run more than 1 feather duster smh my head
Step 5: Play a better deck.
Step 6: take a pair of scissors and cut the opponents cards
@@TheGoodDarkMage "Oh, whadda ya going to do big boy? The duel's over."
Skill issue
Draw the out just makes yugioh sound more and more like 50/50s from turn 1. Aka yugioh has become a coin flip game
A coin flip game!? (master duel intensifies). But seriously I went on a four-game lose Streak because I lost the coin toss every time but then I went on four game win streak because I won the coin toss every time.
@@darkstriker00
How fun
We've been there for a while but it's getting to scary levels in the past year.
Following on this thread... They should just make a coin flip card
Heads you win
Tails you lose.
Non interruptible
"Just jump the command grab 5 head. Garuda? Noooo don't worry about that. You don't wanna get command grabbed, right?"
"Believe in the heart of the cards" > "Draw The Out"
Me on master duel
Or be like Yuma and literally create the perfect counter card with shining draw.
@@darkstriker00 Whats a Yuma?
@@ProUzer the Zexal protagonist.
@@darkstriker00 Whats a Zexal?
I felt this. Just go read, for example, the feature match that PAK played in his top 8 piloting Tearlament Danger Spright vs Spright. One of the games literally was just PAK setting a board, his opponent drawing a card, and conceding to game 3. That feels like dogshit.
Footage?🤗
Also, it's not just the first turn concede that sucks, it's the 5-10 minutes of solitaire. And it's especially bad when it's Tears because even Tear players don't know what their line is gonna be because of all the random mills.
@@deathpyre42 as someone who’s playing Danger Tear Spright, I genuinely feel so bad for my opponent because it’s them just sitting there for 10 minutes while I resolve everything. I deadass came back to Yugioh after 9 years and it feels like every freaking deck does this and now with Tear and Spright and Branded Bystial it sucks.
They're playing spright/tear I don't feel bad what so ever
@@xxSpngebnexx If it wasn't those 3 decks, it would be the ones before them or control decks like Floowandereeze, which is probably even worse. The floodgates are even more toxic than generic interruptions and generic hand traps.
Even back in 2008, Lightsworn or Destiny DAD decks floored other decks in about 3 turns. Those decks had a lot less consistency and starters than flooded the board, so even though the decks felt much stronger than others, every duel started and ended differently, even though a random JD or DAD or Crush Card came in to clutch the game.
To get the game more towards that state, there needs to be a ban on generic cards. Generic interruptions, generic negations, generic hand traps, generic board wipes, generic floodgates, generic anything. It's inevitable decks will summon their bosses easier from the Extra Deck, but every deck summoning Apoloussa probably isn't healthy, or running triple Ash, Imperm, Veiler, Ogre, Gamma, etc isn't either. If only one deck could actually use Mystic Mine (say, if you had to reveal an Exodia piece, etc), we wouldn't have this problem.
It kind of feels like a coping mechanism to an overarching problem with how the modern game is played out. Your opening 5 cards heavily dictates the gameplay experience you're going to have depending on factors like 'Did you open enough hand traps' or as discussed 'Did you draw the out' in relation to going 1st or 2nd, which is another topic altogether with the die roll.
It's become such a major deciding factor over recent years that players have naturally grown a hatred towards losing the die roll whereas in the past it was simply just to see who makes the 1st move and with the back and forth nature of old Yugioh, the die roll felt less impactful at least in comparison to the modern day. That's how I feel atleast.
The main problem is the design of the game, its so much easier to power creep in a game that has no cost/limit to play cards. If enemy doesn't draw "the out", What stopping you from playing 30 main deck cards and 13 extra cards in the opening turn? Nothing.
In older format the most benefit a Turn 1 player got was "Oooh I actually get to use Traps before my Opponent" while going second meant "Oooh I get an extra card and get to Attack first"
Now it's..."Oooooh I get to spend 15 minutes building a board of Negates and a Towers and laugh at my opponent scooping or rage quit when they draw Ra/DRNM/Lightning Storm/Duster/Etc" and the second player go "Oooh I drew all my Kaiju/Imperm/Ash/Veiler/DRNM/Etc cards and a Combo Starter!" Or "Welp I drew nothing to Out a Board, I scoop"
@@nytecrow6452 in today yugioh 90% of all matches are decided on the opening hand, cuz its either 1 card combo, hand traps, handtrap counters, or blowout cards. might as well play poker to skip the 20 min of combo masturbating.
I'm beginning to see more clearly why goat format has gotten more and more popular.
@@nytecrow6452 in the past the first player draw a card, so they have 6 cards, but stii being first is not so powerful like today
when your friends believe in you and you believe in the heart of the cards you can always draw the out
This kind of stuff is why us yugi boomers like your rare hunter series. The games are slower, easier to follow, effect text isn't microscopic(mostly), etc.
I like how the turns end quick and don’t take 8 hours-
Old yugioh was just as dystopic, if not more.
Old yugioh was as chaotic as modern yugioh, stop romantizicing the past.
@@vantablackecho Yea, but the duels...
in 2003 didn't everyone have to deal with yata lock? The duels legit just took longer, I don't know why you think the game is better when it was less diverse for so long.
Just because games end quicker doesn't mean that it is worse, it just means I don't have to deal with 2 hour matches lol.
To draw the out, i gotta get my game on and high five the sky!
SHINING DRAW!
I felt this when I gave Master Duel a try. Most games ended in a few turns/were decided. But the turns take so long with all the draw, searching and combos going on. I describe to other old school players as its still fun to play, but lost the fun to be played against.
My top target of blame is having it become so easy to establish such board states. Creating a game removed of the backrow with how many critical handtraps there are. They're mandatory as letting any modern deck do as they please with a non-bricking hand is often a loss as means of getting an out are restricted by then.
"Just draw the out bro" is simultaneously the most brutally honest assessment of modern yugioh as well as it's most sarcastic caricature
I totally agree with your mindset! Konami put skill drain at 3 and left mystic mine untouched to force players to use backrow removal or even main them, to slow down combo decks, or decrease efficiency and consistency of combos.
With that it's also really fun to just play draw go because you can do literally nothing...
@@kimjung-un8204 I'm guessing they're hoping that people will stop pretending those cards don't exist and try to play around them. Seems to be a lot of resistance to that, though.
@@nicholassinnett2958 isn't that most cards gamers in general
@@nicholassinnett2958 yeah, we should bring back master piece and shock master! After all they have outs and you can play around them
@@joplin4434 I mean Master Peace can absolutely come back. Card is not that impressive in today's meta game and Draco's are nowhere near as good as they were in 2017 and MP will not change that.
I’m glad you keep talking about this stuff, this has been a big problem for a while but people dont seem to bring it up. The power creep is so high it makes games heavily luck based, and leads to fast, unfun, frustrating games
FR man, and its not just that people dont bring it up but if you bring it up people yell at you "go play goat". WELL AT LEAST GOAT WAS BALANCED!
A: Your mystic mine deck isn’t fun.
B: and you 10 negate bord is?
Shout-out to DPYGO for his stream involving that very quote! And also to KingScarlet for his Mystic Mined song. (｡•̀ᴗ-)✧
Just DRAW one of your non-searchable outs, BRO! Honestly, it's been memed along with Jesse Kotton's infamous tweet about Mystic Mine XD
Ah, mystic mine. Paired with mysterune, it’s even HARDER to out, because at least without mysterune you can feasibly wait to draw s/t removal, but mysterune banishes a bunch of cards from your deck so they’re likely to just banish the s/t removal.
@@matt1240 don’t forget! The mysterune spells can summon a fusion that has a protection effect
That can be used under mine because it doesn’t activate
The master duel subreddit is notorious for this. If I had a dollar for every time I had to explain to someone how “draw the out, bro” is not a valid argument 🙄
God, they only want to play the game one way. I on the other hand stare at Felgrand Dragon and try to figure out what I can do with him. Still thinking on making a Level 7 or 8 Synchro Fusion Dragon deck, but I don't really have a foundation for it yet.
I keep getting burned to death!
"JuSt dOn'T dRoP dOwN To 0 LP."
Same energy
@@johnlucas2838 pretty sure your foundation is blue eyes with return of dragon lord cards.
They also complain if you complain about people using meta in casual matches, all I did was post a screenshot of a board full of negates saying this is supposed to be casual and got a bunch of hate saying casual means you can use whatever deck you want and to use better decks
@@Tea_Dawg "You can use whatever deck you want but use a better deck since the one you want isn't good."
This is fucking hilarious
When the game was slower, drawing the out was a more reasonable thing to say. Like "oh, youre getting locked down by gravity bind or level limit? Ok, you have multiple outs in your deck, all you gotta do is play defensively and survive for the next 5 or however many turns, to get your spell/trap removal" "is the spirit reaper keeping you at bay in your monster heavy deck? That sucks, but only time this is a dangerous situation is in a monster heavy deck and monster heavy decks can put out big monsters so that your opponent cant attack either or summon any other monsters without taking damage, and you'l eventually draw a card that stops the stare down. Worst case you eat a raigeki, which is why you keep some back up in your hand or run protection."
But since the game sped up exponentially, its less "oh, you can get the out in the next 5-10 turns dont worry" and more "can you draw the out this turn before I OTK you."
Like, it went from "ok, you can get your MST in the next 5 turns to out the level limit" to "alright, but you can probably get your kaiju to out the Towers." To "oh boy, do you have dark ruler in your starting hand?"
You have much less time to draw the out, and simply drawing into your out is no longer a viable option. Its kind of like saying "just run asura priest against Spright, all of the monsters have low stats, you'll clear their board easily"
"Just use backrow removal" just use MST, Cosmic Cyclone, Harpies Feather Duster, Lightning Storm. Yeah and my backrow removal gets negated due to the spam fest of my opps traps🗿
**Draws out**
"Yes! Alright, I FD your mystic mine."
**Negate with solemn**
"Fuuuuuuuuuu-"
Reboot should have never been banned...
If they phrased it as "believe in the heart of the cards!" And the OG Yu-Gi-Oh! theme played in the background, I'd be totally cool with this.
Said in Yami Yugis awesome English dub voice
I have something to add to the backrow removal part: Most traps which see play like d-barrier or eradicator are normal traps, which means that your opponent can just chain them. Which makes them even worse.
It's the exact same thing as the problem with hand traps. Yeah, I get that hand traps limit the go-first problem and introduce interactivity early, but truth is you either have it, or you don't.
Like you said: games feel better when they're wars of attrition, and you can slowly, bit by bit maximize your resources to overcome your opponent. I just don't see a clear path to making modern Yugioh resemble that gameplay loop in the slightest.
Developing alternative formats for players who want to play them still intrigues me as a possible solution, though
I have simply taken to Lava Goleming and Evenly Matching my problems away. I don't necessarily like that I have to do that, but that's the game atm.
I would definitely like it if the game was less all or nothing from the get go.
Barian and Shining Draws for literally EVERYTHING,
Adopting a "turn 2 player gets a mulligan" system would make going second stronger but it wouldn't fix the fundamental issues.
Konami's design philosophy also inherently hurts weaker decks because ones that aren't as compact don't have the luxury of being able to throw in like 8 board breaking cards.
Mulligan would* make going 2nd the option to go now. Especially now that we have decks like Tear and bystial which can play during your turn.
Imagine if in the anime, instead of Yugi saying "believe in the heart of the cards" he just tells everyone to just "draw the out" "JUST DRAW THE OUT JOEY"
I really think Yu-Gi-Oh should get a mulligan rule. Going first is such an incredibly large advantage. A full one time 5 card for 5 card mulligan should definitely be implemented because of how draw dependant most formats get
I‘ve thought about it myself a lot, however, do you really want your opponent d.shufting you every game 3? Seems dangerous with how many generically good floodgate effects there are. In magic, where there is a mulligan, it’s warranted for the reason that there are more avenues to brick and that silver bullets are not that backbreaking and generic like in yugi. If they were to allow mulligans, they should definitely not be free and there should have to be a huge update to the banlist. Or that’s what I think. My real grudge is with the time rules tho, why are they so bad? Please konami, copy litterally any other tcg‘s notes on that one.
@@Haimi-fv5xj IDK about silver bullets not being back breaking in MTG honestly. As A Teemur Crashcade player T3feri ties my spine in a bow, snaps my legs, smashes my kneecaps, shatters my hand bones, then leaves me there to rot. I really hate a resolved T3feri THANK GOD FOR FON!
@@lazargodragonborn5058 man... I'm sorry to hear that. Didn't know teferi was such a problem. I stopped caring about 1v1 magic when they started adding pw to the game like hootcakes. I keep in touch with the game through channels like the Professor's but I can't completely grasp the impact of 2 sets of modern horizon.
@@Haimi-fv5xj T3feri with that static text of "Your opponent can only cast spells when they could cast a sorcery spell" absolutely shoved any cascade plans straight in the trash as you can't actually cast the spell you cascade into that and it also stops any instant speed interaction so no interaction can be had it's tough. Edit: Also T3feri is the Teferi from War of the Spark
Technically when you start a duel you have a chance to draw an out. Backrow removal, a hand trap, list goes on.
We’ve reached the point in Yugioh where if you do not draw a staple out in your opening hand, scoop.
I feel the same about the game, i came back like 2 months ago from years of no playing and my fist impression was "wow, the player that has the most stacked hand wins" or if you just by rng got the perfect card in the opening hand, its kinda frustrating...glad to see that im not the only one
"Just draw the out" is too real to be a joke. Yugioh in 2022 is a deck building game, not a card battling game, and I don't think there's much argument to make against that. The most hopeless part is that, how do you fix it at this point, without just continued power creep and digging the hole deeper? There's no getting back what we once had, and it sucks.
Look, i play several cardgames and i can confidently say that ygo isnt in too bad of a place, Pokémon is gold right now and Magic is just in an awful place, Digimon feels unfulfulling to play because of Rookie rush.
YGO has a Lot of nostalgia but id rather take current meta than hanehane/Man Eater/trap hold spam meta
That's fair, and I'll admit I don't have as much experience with other TCGs as I do Yugioh. I'm with you that the repetitive set-pass OG meta is unfun in its own right, but personally I feel like too many people overlook the middle years of the game. That early Zexal era, that was peak Yugioh IMO
Needing to draw the out is the reason I completely fell out of competitive yugioh and now only play casually while strongly gravitating towards healthier tcgs
Nice conversation, as always.
One thing that really irks me though is you (and many other players) are using the term "hand loop" wrong here. What you are referring to is a "hand rip." A "hand loop" is like the old X-Saber Gottoms hand loop that could literally loop it infininitely to rip all cards from the opponents hand.
When its a singular or finite effect, its referred to as a rip. You "rip" a card out of your opponent's hand. You "rip" 3 cards with the Trishula combo.
Sorry if this seems a bit excessive, but I played Gottoms Hand Loop and Gustkraken Hand Loop and Trishula Hand Loop, so its just a pet peeve of mine lol
Anyway, great content as always!
If konami wants players to actually maindeck spell/trap removal, they need to transfer some of the combo decks' boss monsters' power to (Continuous) spell/traps, and make those spell/traps be searched as part of the combo.
I‘d argue they are already doing that. In my locals cosmic cyclone is the literal best flex spot to play besides called by. And not because people are spamming mystic mines, but because it’s more often than not the only card that allows you to completely turn the tables on your opponent. To make it clear, my locals is very varied and very competitive; for instance, last locals my opponent won because he took too long to end his turn on a board that I had completely cleared and had left him with no cards in hand and no effects. I play mathmech so I ping myself for 2k every time. I simply just had to say draw, standby, main, battlephase and I would have won, but time was called on his turn still. He took the game, he felt bad about it but not bad enough to concede it to me. That’s just one example of my locals where cosmic cyclone is the literal best card to run maindeck. I could give you lots of examples where cosmic is insane, but we’d be sitting here for ages so instead why not give it a spin and find out for yourself? You‘ll see what I mean. I always find place for 2 and I‘ve never had reason to take them out and have yet to lose game 1 to floodgate.deck
@@Haimi-fv5xj if your locals has a large variety of decks, it's most likely not competitive. That's the sad truth of this format
I read this comment and immediately thought of P.U.N.K. where "wa gon" only gets played as extra copies of terraforming lol
I mean they kinda doing that, Swordsoul Blackout, Tearlaments trap, Chuche, Smasher, All of Floo spell/trap are major threat. Or going even further we also have pendulumgraph, D/D headhunt + dark contract (pop contract then Machinex can't activate effect), Salamangreat Roar + Rage, etc... People just think: well probably I can put enough gas to play past them cause yeah putting 3 no searchable cards in to remove 1 of their searchable card doesn't sound that profitable.
@@Harmonic14 I disagree. When I say competitive, I mean people trying to win at all costs except maybe by cheating (god I hope they don't). We are not in a tier 0 format yet. When I say diverese I mean you are not guaranteed to play 5/5 times against tear and spright. There are a bunch of tearlaments players and a bunch of spright players. Otherwise there's the 1 Marincess player, the 1 Despia player, the 1 Floo player, I'm the guy representing analysis for applications.deck, etc. I'd say that's as diverse as it get right now... sadly.
This is what's killing MD for me. There's no game 2 and 3 to redeem my brick hand.
It also validates gimmicky ftk decks, since there would be no way in hell it would win consistently if games were played best of 3 like irl
@@Rahnonymous exactly. One of my least favorite decks to go against is Exodia, believe it or not. If you don’t draw Ash, or anything to counter all the drawing, then you might as well Surrender. That’s not fun. That’s bullshit.
@@mikefrost5575 Nobody wants to duel against an auto deck where there's no interaction. That's why so many people hate floodgates.
I think this sort of thing needs to be leaned into even more. To change the way the game is played add more cards that require spell and trap removal to slow the game down a little bit but find a way to do it that wont completely kill the overfocused efficiency of current meta decks that have such a glaring weakness to as card that can lose to a single MST. TLDR just make it so meta decks want to have more spell and trap removal
One aspect of why "draw the out" is so much worse in modern yugioh compared to the old old days is the fact that games were longer giving you more turns and more chances to draw the out, compared to modern yugioh where often times, if you don't draw the right card on your very next turn the game may already be over. However, I don't think this is quite the real problem, because one example is something like mystic mine which can play to stall out the game for a long time, giving you many chances to draw the out, while still feeling just as sacky as situations where you only have 1 or 2 turns to draw the out.
Instead, what I think is the real root of the problem isn't the speed of modern yugioh but the consistency of modern yugioh. While on the other hand, counterplay/boardbreaking is still largely luck of the draw. This inherent inconsistency of "drawing the out" didn't feel as bad back when the prospect of building a board or reaching a win con was equally inconsistent. The odds of making a big play at any point was matched by a roughly equal odds of your opponent having the right card to answer you, and this didn't feel as bad because both sides had similar odds. Nowadays however, big plays are almost guaranteed every turn, but it's still the same odds for your opponent to be able to answer you. This feels bad for both players, because on one side of the table it sucks that if you don't draw the right card you just loose, and on the other side of a table it sucks that your super consistent combo suddenly fails just because your opponent got lucky.
A good point that you brought up is that not every deck can cover everything. If Dark Ruler No More can screw you, having a Solemn Judgement just in case may help you since that isn't a monster effect. As a bonus you can stop something else with it. Otherwise you'll have to accept that Dark Ruler No More will just kill you.
Yeah but in this case you’d still have to have drawn the solemn judgment aka the “out” to dark ruler. Every game especially pre siding is always gonna have some element of “oh he really had THAT card exactly did he?” And that’s just kinda sad. You can’t prepare for everything best you can do is think about what people are most likely gonna be running and try to have a strategy that doesn’t lose to those cards outright. But yeah no matter what you do there is always gonna be that game where you do just get dark rulers when you have 5 monster negates and 2 cards in hand, but all three judgments are stuck in the main deck.
Players have been arguing with counter plays since forever and its crazy that even to this day not enough understand that possible counter plays are no arguement against certain cards / combos being to strong.
Mystic Mine for example has another big problem: The YGO TCG has evolved to a game where monster effects are very strong, traps being mostly to slow so players had to get / have to play handtraps instead. This leads to a game where you dont really want to play S/T removal, its simply not good enough anymore. Sure you can side it in but then it can be already to late.
Another big problem is the speed of the game and the crazy combos even just two cards can allow you to do. While consistency and options are healthy for the game it has to be balanced well and this is where Konami messed up big time over the years. Some games can literally be decided by just comparing opening hands, yes there are still grindy games but not to the level as it used to be. YGO nowadays is really more learning then doing.
Basically agreed with everything you said. As a yugiboomer, there were a balance between the monsters (main bodies), spells (support), traps (counter-play). Monster effects started creeping in and taking over the other two functionalities, but they also can ladder themselves unlike spell/trap through Extra Deck summoning mechanics.
The reason why Dark Ruler No More and Forbidden Droplet and works is because it inverts the power creep by monster effects by disallowing that interaction. More Spell/Trap should follow this, especially in an disadvantaged state. Some cards in Photon Hypernova like Weight Measuring is like a not so restricted Evenly Matched and also has the "opponent sends monsters" to go around innate protection as well
Them: Draw the Out
Me: *Draws a tribute summon*
Based
Why draw the out, when you can play the out? Vaylantz TO THE MOON
I agree my vaylantz comrade.
You should make a video on what master rule update could solve all these issues
From a mine runick deck out player, the face of my oponent when i protect my board with huggin from harpies feather Duster and use cursed Seal of the forbidden Spell on his cosmic cyclone is priceless
I definitely resonate with the feeling that these powerful megatin cards make everything feel unimpressive. It just isn’t interesting to see my deck entirely shut down when my opponent draws one card, sets up, then I have to hope I draw the one card. Nothing I can do is cool enough to not just completely lose to one card anymore and it just makes it hard to put my heart into things. I just disengage from the game and wonder why I’m even playing.
wouldn't that be how your opponent feels watching you build your board if they don't have an out? seems like modern yugioh is literally if players draws their out in turn two they win, if not person going first wins
@@eddiemango That's how modern YuGiOh goes nowadays, unless both of the player hard bricked
@@OnlyTheStrongest116 how fun, very very fun
The deck I play on master duel rarely struggles with these issues because I do play four spell/trap removal cards. but I’ve always preferred old-school formats, so I prioritize those cards (and battle traps) when I’m building. And somehow it works.
Gold
@@kauanjos3199 exactly. Like tell me you're a gold player without telling me you're a gold player 😆
or could be someone who isnt sheeping into what everyone thinks is good, almost made it out of plat with dark magician and other uncommon decks just never have enough drive or time to grind a rank only meta kids care about
spell and trap removal are king to deal with fg they cant negate mor than twice usually and when they can tbf they drew the out in cursed seal
@@justthinkingthoughts6483 lol no. Anyone above gold typically removes backrow before going for lethal. This is literally just a gold player. And nothing wrong with that as it's the most fun bracket. But this video is really talking about things you see in plat and Diamond.
My dinomorphia deck with its strong floodgates still makes the meta kids cry lol. They deserve to have a bad time for being sheep. But I do feel bad when my rexterm doesn’t let the local hero kid play :(
I drew the out.
Yugioh got more broken over the years, but the heart of the cards didn’t get stronger..
You can't draw the out if you don't run the out.
Sweaty Yugioh players have stopped running basic removal and instead have become too reliant on omni-negates and hand traps.
You get what you deserve.
Where's the reason in running it if the opponent can just protect it?
@@bl00by_ "if your opponent tries to stop you from winning, why even play?"
@@vileluca Because I want to play the game?
@@bl00by_ r/woosh
Dude it's been that way since BA, Kozmos era. Eventually archetypes will evolve to have all sorts of outs. Rn this is the way. I remember back in the day getting a special from the deck was OP. Nowadays it's the turn
Yugioh has always been about having the out long before Mystic Mine.
¨Just Draw the out¨Is the stupiest phrase I ever heard in Yu-gi-oh!
Because ofcourse I can manipulate the odds of drawing what I need in a disadvantages gamestate the isnt cheating
Whoever said that first hope he have and unoperable tumor in its spinalcord.
I'm at locals round 1 tournament putting away my rogue deck because it lost to 1 ash blossom then i walk over to my friends table where he's 0-1 against mystic mine with 4 minutes left and i tell him, "Just draw the out"
Mystic Mine is still not as oppressive as sitting through 10 mins of letting your opponent summon 15 monsters and end with 4 unkillable boss monsters that will negative whatever you play on your turn and they just OTK you on their turn
just draw the sphere mode/dark ruler no more, bro
@@joplin4434 there’s objectively more spell and trap removal than there are ways to get over unkillable boss monsters. Mystic mine doesn’t have built in protection bro
@@brianlowe904 there is 1 (one) monster that resists being tributed in Darkest Diabolos, and your deck must suck to lose to it lmao There are 7 kaijus, lava golem, sphere mode and volcanic queen, meaning you get 30 cards that do the trick. No one is running 30 MST likes lmao
Mystic mine is just Kaiser Colisseum but better, and we all know where Kayce is.
Yeah, but there are ways to dissrupt that. Most decks still get hurt by a well placed Ash/Ogre or getting Nib'd.
I agree that "draw the out" is dumb, but If you are consistently losing to mildly Strong boards that you have deck building problems, Ive broken Strong Meta Tearla endboards with a well placed Crow in a Mecha Phantom Beast deck.
Not gonna lie Paul, this has always been a problem and I found this out by replaying goat format and such
Power creep for turn 1 "I win" boards has lead to power creep for the outs.
The outs progressively increasing in power to attempt to keep up with turn 1 boards forces out any strategy that can't either play through multiple negates/handtraps/interactions or simpler/more streamlined decks. Yamato pass is severely power creeped yes but unless you have multiple outs to a board/handtraps it's likely to not even resolve. Decks just aren't allowed to be simple on their own turn anymore unless it's specifically Eldlitch/Altergeist/Runic but that's only because they are able to keep up in card advantage/resources in rotation where other trap decks cannot do as efficiently.
In boxing they say "styles makes fights" - as in, outboxers usually destroy in fighters, etc.
My Opponent: *makes a board of several negates and sets and interruption they searched in the back row*
-Pass turn
Me: “Heart of the cards….guide me.”
It’s basically impossible to have everything you need at any time unless you’re legitimately just Yugi with your top decks
* at locals *
The Mine player: “Just draw the out lol”
The guy who stacks his deck: “I DID” 😈
"Just draw the out, bro!" and the out is 12 cards away and every shuffle gets it further away.
Big difference between "I need a destiny draw or I lose right now" compared to "I hope I get the out soon"
Watching people's progression or seal series on YT, you can see those moments where someone is stuck but they still have a few turns to try and draw something, and maybe they can even do small set ups to stall out an extra turn or two.
1:19 Here's the problem. Not everyone has access to those cards. Not everyone can draw those cards. "Drawing the Out" means nothing if you can't use it, get to it in time, or even have that card in your possession.
Than Just play kitchen table?
Yugioh is not even that expensive, MTG you need to spend thousands on fucking lands before even starting to build your deck
Pokémon is cheap, tho and even rogue decks get a Fair shot because the game doesnt have out of turn interactions
"Just draw the out"
What if Mystic Mine is the out and they just slap that one copy in the Main Deck cuz they can
King Scarlet Ygo is responsible for some of the hype for his tracks Mystic Mine, and Just Draw The Out
Then theres also a floodgate card (can't remember the name) that allows your opponent to look at the top 3 cards of your deck and restack them. So the whole "draw the out" thing is irrelevant when the dude uses it.
Edit: the card is called Goddess Skuld's Oracle
That's the thing. We shouldn't have to rely on luck(draw the out) just to be able to play the game. This is another symptom of how fast the game has gotten in recent years. The game ends so fast you have to draw the out immediately or lose right there. It just takes all the skill and fun out of the game and becomes a quick game of rock, paper, scissors. It's out of your control and it's mostly luck based now and it sucks that this is what Yugioh has turned into. Konami needs to make major changes and stop digging this hole further.
It sounds like the ”Its just a prank, bro” excuse.
Just believe in the heart of cards bro, you can beat anyone if you put your soul into the deck!
I think the bigger problem is what happens after you "draw the out". Some decks can very easily come back from a field wipe in one turn, while others like combo decks will just straight up lose. Ive been thinking that it might be fun/healthier for the game if you could select one card from your deck at the start of the game to put in your hand (you'd pick one card, then draw 4 more if you go first). In the first duel, the assumption would be that you just run a generic good card since you don't know what type of deck your opponent is running. Duel 2, you can pick whatever the "out" would be, but since your opponent knows what you're trying to do, they could pick an "out" to your "out". For example, duel 1 both players probably pick something like an ash blossom or a Gamma, player 1 find that player 2 uses a combo deck, player 2 find that player 1 uses a trap deck. Player 1 wins the duel, so player 2 will go first in duel 2. After side decking, player 1 will likely pick something like Nibiru or Dark Ruler No More as their starting card since they are going second, and they know that their opponent relies on combos. Player 2 will likely expect this, so after siding and picking their own card, they have to choose whether they want something to negate that "out" like crossout designator (would also require them to side in the cards they want to negate), or if they will pick a counter to a trap deck like feather duster / cyclone and alter their playstyle to leave a more modest board and rely on other ways to win after turn 1. There is still some RNG, but at least what happens ends up being a direct result of whatever card the player decided to guarantee for themselves in their starting hand. Then for the third duel (assuming 1:1 in a best of 3), they would have to make a similar decision but this time switching who goes first, completely changing what they may decide to guarantee themselves. Yeah, this idea may be flawed, but I still think it would be much more interesting/fair than the general "just draw the out" where you straight up lose if you don't have the exact counter that you need for a random card.
The really annoying one is Floo running Barrier Statue in Master Duel. I mainly play Blue-Eyes and Dark Magician after hardly playing after GX. The last product I bought was Saga of Blue-Eyes White Dragon and kept an eye on new mechanics, especially with Legacy of the Duelist: Link Evolution and Duel Links. Now I am properly playing Blue-Eyes and Dark Magician in Master Duel, slowly building up my collection in order to play a variety of decks, and everything is frustrating. Modern decks do lots of ridiculous stuff, and my decks just lose to floodgates, handtraps, and/or negates. Yu-Gi-Oh! has just become stop your opponent from playing the game.
Barrier Statue needs an outright ban imo
@@yowza9638 Barrier Statue in of itself isn't the problem. You can just normal summon a monster and walk over it. The problem is the six negates they have to negate that normal summon...
@@Runenschuppe Floowandereeze doesn't have six negates, it's mostly their trap card that is the problem flipping all your monsters facer down
@@Runenschuppe Never itself, he can just tribute summon Raiza then bounce your normal summon or have protection at tri-brigade lyrilusc.
Yugioh was always like that, Floodgates, Handtraps and Negates are literally everything in the game not named Beatdown, so If your deck cant deal with literally anything than you need to Go back to the drawing board.
People used to run Man Eater Bugs, Acid Trap Roles and every other kind of degenerate removal back in the day, at least now you can decently protect stuff
The fun thing about yugioh is using the parts of your deck to dissolve a strong board. It’s like they build a castle and you have to invade it. Sure you can draw the out and make it easier on yourself, but I often find myself in these grindy games more often than not.
Its just not possible, if you dont draw the out to allow you to build your own castle, you are dead next turn
@@GuilhermeDiGiorgi yeah, maybe vs a deck like swordsoul or branded despia you can still use your engine card to grind and break their board, but againts deck like tear and spirght its just impossible, not to mention if they manage to summon monster with floodgates effect like winda on top of that, you better just move on to the next game
maybe in MD but in physical that castle building takes a long ass time
"Out my board!" he said jokingly.
Me and my friend play decent archetypes but purposefully avoid floodgates and stuff because, it’s supposed to be an interactive game in my eyes. How do you know if your decks any good if you lock your opponent out from playing?
We still find ourselves needing the perfect draw from time to time and it’s crazy fun when you see the card you’ve been praying for 😁
Mystic Mine will ALWAYS be a necessary evil as long as multi-negate boards exist.
Fucked up cards that auto-bait negates are 100% ok and NEED to exist when turn one plays allow the setup of otherwise unbreakable boards.
The premise of your argument effectively boils down to "You can't answer everything problematic at once within 40 cards and that's a problem".
I would argue that that's what your side deck is for.
Mystic Mine Turbo should NOT be winning games 2 and 3 if you get hoed game 1 because you can straight up side in anti-backrow cards and explode them for choosing to play such a passive do-nothing deck.
Outside of that strategy, I argue that Mine has a very worthwhile purpose of allowing you to deal with combo boards by playing cards the opponent HAS to negate before making your own board to deal with theirs.
DRNM, Droplet, and Nibiru shouldn't be the ONLY cards useful to that effect. (I know there are others, but these are THE most universal).
----
On the topic of the problem that Yugioh currently faces, I feel that the prevalence of monsters with floodgate style effects and negate effects are what created this problem in the first place.
These effects on easily summoned bodies is a HUGE problem and needed to be addressed in a substantive way a long LONG time ago.
I think most of these cards act as something of a bandaid to a bullet wound.
DRNM beats EVERY combo board, but I'd argue that a card like DRNM should frankly have never NEEDED to exist in the first place because bodies shouldn't be able to negate.
Spoiler alert: the meta is moving away from big negation boards.
@@bl00by_ yeah, because you have big negation hands. A better raigeki, a nope to any form of search, a nope to any form of draw, plenty of nope to monster effects, and are almost completely immune to opposing negation. As a reminder, Handtraps used to be mostly a sidedeck option, not a main deck one.
@@N12015 If that was the reason why decks moved away from negates then we would've done that years ago already. Yet formats like secret slayers or the adventure pile thing existed.
Yugioh is a tale of 2 games either you win opening hand or you prevent your opponent from playing long enough that they quit. But no matter the outcome only 1 person gets to play.
You outted my board and sent my cards to the grave? That's full combo gg.
I'm just a yugioh onlooker who's played hearthstone and mtg for a while. Looking back to the first few sets of ygo, it felt like the game designers had no idea how the game would actually be played. There were so many monsters with different attack and defense stats as if we were going to play for tempo and board or something. In reality it came down to playing the 1800 or 2500 beat stick first and winning.
It seems like modern day YGO is the same thing except now its turned up to 11.
Is it a game of back and forth interaction? It really doesnt sound like one.
Me seeing a super powerful monster but I put two kaijus in my deck
wonder if triple tactics is now considered "drawing the out"
Can't wait to see it get banned to -1 copies, where the judge has to validate you don't run it every single match, and mystic mine gets an anti-ban, where you can run it at 4 copies
I don't think people understand Konam's purpose in making mystic mine is just exactly that...to draw the unsearchable out. I see alot of people commenting the solution is to make searchable outs...that is exactly the opposite of konami's point of making this card
Just summon monsters on their Field
Completely agree. Feels like a contest of "YOU can't play!" (ominegate and bounce spam) "No, YOU can't play!" (DRNM) "No, YOU CAN'T play!" (Floodgate) "No, you!" (Evenly Matched). Either way, one person's deck is going to utterly fail to function whereas in old Yugioh, to varying degrees, both decks got to at least somewhat realize their gameplan.
So it all comes back to kaiju's and friends
Drawing the out welcome to the world of TCGS guys.
Konami should push the game towards 5ds era where protection easily accessible. Rather than having OTK and FTK cards, develop cards that promote the ability to establish a board and protect your board rather than create a board and destroy your opponent without giving them a chance to play the game.
That literally what the negation floogate combo boards already do
@@MobiusMundUr No, they also destroy or banish after negating so that no board can br established
This is honestly a silly argument. There really never should've been such a focus on "consistency" for combos to begin with. If you want consistency, you're playing the wrong game. Wrong entire genre of game, in fact.
RNG is supposed to matter. If you don't want randomness then go ahead and play with friends with no shuffling and freely stack your decks however you want.
Part of the fun of things like turn based JRPGs that involve things like luck stats and card games (including the gambling kind) is using the math of things to your advantage. If you know exactly how it's going to go down, why even play? Pulling what you need when you need it is supposed to be part of the fun.
Now don't get me wrong, the ability for stuff to combo after returning from 2005 in 2019 I do find fun but a decrease in consistency for most things wouldn't hurt and is actually the reason so many ED cards need errata. You SHOULDN'T be able to go into most of them so easily.
In other words, there should be more luck of the draw to using them instead of just spamming highly consistent engines/archetypes.
Yes, there are always going to be people who just sit down and do the math so they can do that to the best of their ability. And you should do that for whatever you're using as well. But crying about not having the out sometimes just means games of chance AKA anything with any kind of randomization are not for the person complaining.
What genre of game do you recommend people who are focused on consistency for combo decks
When I am watching my opponent build a huge, ultra-powerful board, and my hand doesn't have the cards to handle it, I just tell myself "Well, the top card of my deck is a Lava Golem, so it's fine." You can guess how often that's actually true, but it's my mantra. That said, in my 30+ traps Eldlich deck (no hand traps), if not for enemy decks that can destroy my spells/traps as a quick effect, most of the time I'm content to go second just setting 4-5 cards, even into a huge board. It's mostly the effects that can quick-effect destroy my set cards that really hurt me. But for some of those, there isn't "the out". I mean, what am I gonna do, play Night Beam to stop Branded in Red for Guardian Chimera, just so that I can keep four set cards? If I have to maindeck Night Beam in Master Duel, then I'm sorry, but I should just go and play Magic at that point. (This is where you tell me to play Branded Eldlich and pack Crossout for that, I suppose.)
But fr I like these talks. You always bring up good and intelligent points.
I try to play a counter to everything. But the "out" makes me brick my whole entire hand
I feel like that kind of why siding exists.
you gotta be in game 2 to side meaning you're likely already at a disadvantage.
You need to play bo3 to use a side.
@@MrJuan_Vzla isn't that every tourney? As in like the only time people care about winning?
"Just draw the out."
"Then you built your deck wrong."
"You should've accounted for [insert extremely niche card]."
"Play a better archetype."
These few responses I've seen time and time again come across as very dismissive of the actual problem, and don't actually contribute to solving it
"I got nothing bro no negates no outs" so you've chosen death?
idk who uses it as a joke these ppl online are dead serious and stupid saying draw the out justifying a cards existence main example mystic mine
That's the part of the community which just repeats stuff they heard from yugitubers as if they were parots. With other words the people the last Aps+ vid was about lol
This is conversation for when Raigeki was released.
8:17 You shouldn't over extend and less if you lose to cards that 99% of players use.
People dont notice, but you dont need to play around a lot of stuff on YGO like you to in other cardgames, stuff like Liliana of Veil in MTG would make the average YGO player lose their shit, some endboards in mtg just have no outs other than some super situational negation that either or color doesnt have or you Just dont run It because draws are much more important so you couldnt afford the brick
I mean, I use "Draw the out" as like a heart of the cards moment, however, in the modernized YGO formats, it's getting harder to just draw the out. There is an out to everything though from what I can tell, it's just hard to know if you'll get the chance to use it or not.
I must say that I absolutely love your content and you are very informative! Keep up the good work!
Hand looping is sus now because of Tear specifically, but even before then, it's generally weak to disruption. Also, if all you're doing is ripping cards, your end board probably isn't anything special unless you are exactly Six Sam infinite comboing. Lots of decks have one card full combo lines as well, so there is no guarantee that yeeting most or all of the cards in their hand will stop them from playing either way.
It does feel like majority of matches come down to lucky draws rather than skill. Yes, even within optimized decks. It feels like if you didn't open something that would stop the opponents incredibly oppressive gameplan - you've already lost. Incredibly more so for non-meta decks.
From the moment one-card combos became the norm for meta decks and those decks became able to run upwards of 15 handtraps/tech cards, "just draw the out" became absolutely unreasonable.