Great presentation on VIII Corps during Cobra making the breakthrough and turning it into a rapid break out. Loved the discussion of the role of the armored divisions.
One thing I like about this channel is the introduction of personalities little known like Middleton, Collins, Ridgeway and others. A good source for later in the war about Middleton's role in Bastogne (bulge) is 'The Bitter Woods' and other battalion and corp commanders roles. Glad I cought the replay. Another good show.
Patton bragged about how well he scored at the Army War College against his classmates, many of whom became the Army General Staff in WW2. Middleton was in that class and graduated ahead of Patton but didn't need to remind everyone. Patton was career Army, Middleton a highly decorated infantry commander that had returned to civilian life. Both Patton and Middleton were fighters. Middleton knew France, he knew Belgium, and he knew Germany because in 1918-19 he fought for then occupied almost the same exact ground. He knew the logistics of moving men and materiel from the ports of France to the Rhine because as a young battalion commander he had done it 25 years earlier. From Pancho Villa to Joachim Piper Middleton fought against the best and won. Middleton served 488 days in combat during WW2, more than any other American General. There are many famous American commanders in WW2 that everyone has heard about most of which were career Army. Then there are those commanders like Middleton, equally accomplished on both the battlefield and in civilian life, whose names are found on the second page of the history of WW2.
I had heard of General Middleton through my great-grandmother Middleton, but only recently determined how he was my cousin (one state over in Louisiana!) For me, it's been a 24-hour crash course about his military career. Thank you for this video - greetings from Texas... 🌿⭐🌿
Another masterclass by Kevin Hymel. Always learning from him and certainly has opened my eyes on Middletons role in making Cobra a success with the use of armor to make the breakthrough to Coutances. Hope to see him again to talk more about the post Avranches breakout and perhaps other 3rd Army campaigns e.g. Metz
General Middleton was my great-great uncle and I've heard so many stories from his nephew, my great grandfather. It was nice to find a video discussing his role in the European theatre. Thanks for this
It was great to listen in on a conversation between two experts on the campaign in Normandy. The role played by General Middleton was overshadowed by Patton's arrival as the Third Army Commander. In some ways it reminded me of General Macarthur's habit of taking the credit for the hard work of subordinates in the Pacific. If things went well it was always their orders which were responsible for the success, but let something go wrong.....it was the fault of the Corp Commander, or the Divisional Commander. Middleton was a fine soldier and an excellent leader who was not prone to panic or rash decisions. Good presentation from two excellent historians!!
excellent show; Kevin is a terrific presenter and teacher of ww2 military history; his knowledge of this history is superb. And, Woody is just the best of the best of hosts for all things ww2!
My grandfather was with 8 Corps from Normandy to Bastogne with the 1308th combat Engineers (GS) Regiment until the 1308th's re-deployment to the Pacific for the Okinawa invasion.
An excellent presentation! I really learned alot about VIII Corps today. I really appreciated Kevin giving a shout out to my favorite TV show at the beginning of his talk!
Woody, if you didn't know that silly hat was a kid's toy in the US in the 1970's inspired by a Television program. Good for you on this show, Middleton needs more time in the spotlight! WW2 is the first war in US history when the National Guard has been reorganized and is equiped and trained at the same level as the regular army when a war starts; WW1 is the war in the transition period from the poorly trained/equiped State Militias to the National Guard, so some NG divisions are in better shape and more organized on the Army model than others. US Army was fully motorized/mechanized in WW2, in Korea we were back to using horses and mules in some roles.
Another great show, very insightful and informative. It is fantastic that #WW2 TV is providing such content, giving coverage to the lesser known personalities of the war. The real leaders, the real fighters, deserve to be acknowledged and remembered much more so that the ego driven, publicity hunters who often got the accolades. Thanks to Kevin for sharing his knowledge, and to #WW2TV for giving us such a great platform of education.
Never knew the 4th Armored was supposed to be the most famous US armored division during WW2. 2nd and 3rd are far more well known now, as they were in the thick of more prominent battles. 👍
Hi Paul. I know you were reluctant to talk too much about the role of the Rhinos during Cobra, and I know you are in the camp that credits them greatly in the breakout. I've found the article by Stephen Zaloga which I mentioned in your 'ask me anything' broadcast. Here are some excerpts which may be of interest (email me if you'd like a link to the full article - alongside Carafano's book, it certainly offers a different perspective, one which has certainly made me think twice compared with what I used to say on tour)... 'The use of the Rhino tanks in Operation Cobra has become something of legend… One recent study of Cobra, Col. James Carafano's 'After D-Day', goes so far as to label the stories of the Rhino tanks a myth. Certainly, the importance of the Rhino tanks has tended to be exaggerated. It is an appealing tale of ingenuity in the heat of battle. It makes for a good story, particularly in popular histories and in television documentaries… Were the Rhino tanks effective? In fact, there is very little evidence. Some tank units that used Rhino devices on the first day of the battle, 25 July, found that they were no panacea. The problem was not so much the Rhinos as the pre-attack bombardment which churned up the pastures, which made it difficult to charge across the fields and build up enough speed to breach the hedgerows… Other units such as the 3rd Armored Division had little luck with the hedge cutters. But they had been added to their tanks at the very last minute with little chance to practice the new tank-infantry tactics… In fact, operational accounts of the 2nd Armored Division in Cobra provide few indications that the devices ever played much of a role... Tankers that I have interviewed over the years had mixed feelings about the Rhinos. Some said that the Rhino worked, but that it was hard on the crew. Others said they hardly ever used it, as once the break-through began, the situation was so fluid that it was seldom needed… Whether effective or not, the Rhino tanks have become one of the popular legends of the Normandy campaign, and are likely to remain so in spite of debunking by historians.' A show with yourself and Stephen debating the relative merit and worth would be very interesting ;-)
Thanks for that addition (or addendum), Stuart. If nothing else it demonstrates the versatility of the M4, with the Rhino as sort of an extension from the Funnies - themselves being a mixed bag in terms of success.
I'm not sure I credit them greatly, but I do think having them was a significant psychological boost to the crews - at least in theory. As you say, in practice their experiences were varied. Plus in the few moments they were used I think they helped. The other thing to look at is the terrain. Once you get beyond the bombed rectangle there is still bocage for a few miles before it opens up. Of course we know that by the time they got to these areas, the Germans were largely broken and the vanguard used the roads. But if that had not been the case, I think the Rhinos may have been employed. So I agree that their use was limited, but I'm glad they had them - maybe the best way to describe them is an insurance policy. Steve Zaloga will be on talking about the DDs, but I could ask him on to talk about rhinos too
@@WW2TV thanks for your reply Paul - maybe I was reading too much into what you said the other day, as in "where they were used, they were vital". I thought that meant in the physical sense, rather than psychological, you can maybe see where the confusion arose, vital is quite a definitive word.
@@NormandyBattleTours Yep vital was not the right choice of word. Important maybe, but not vital. Have you read the 3rd Armor Div history, there's some distinct praise in there for Rhinos in first few hours of Cobra
@@WW2TV fair enough. Is it the official divisional history you mentioned (republished by Battery Press)? If so, I haven't got that one (I bought a load from them around 10 years ago - very good books but very expensive - the shipping charges to France were about the same as what I paid for the books). Anyway, looking forward to Stephen's rearranged programme - any idea when its being rescheduled for?
That was a fair discussion Paul, and the level of detail that was used ,excellent as ever ,however did I hear you say the reason why the Americans were able to drive like they could ,is because they did not encounter the amounts of German armour like the British and the Canadians did in and around Caen ??
Yes, specifically VIII Corps. VII Corps met more to the east, but VIII only really faced a few bits and pieces of stray armour. Certainly not the volume that was facing the DUKE forces
The author confuses the concepts of square/triangular divisions and heavy/light divisions. Infantry divisions were shifted from square to triangular in 1940-1941. Cavalry divisions remained square for the entire war. Armorned divisions were never square. They were reorganized in September of 1943 to become lighter as they were tank heavy and infantry poor, with the Second and Third remaining heavy. The other divisions including Fourth and Sixth Armored were ‘light’ but still infantry poor as the armorned infantry battalions were smaller than the infantry version. Generally a good presentation but Lord he confused this point.
US armored divisions had a 1:1:1 ratio between tank battalions, mech infantry battalions and SP artillery battalions, which was a pretty advanced idea for the time. Earlier in the war, it was thought that a higher ratio of tank units was needed. This idea was widespread, not just in the US Army. As the campaign unfolded, it looks to me like it became fairly common to do large-scale cross-attachments. For example, attaching entire infantry regiments to armored divisions (giving them in effect three more infantry battalions) or attaching entire AD Combat Commands to infantry divisions. All this suggests that there was a widespread belief that even more infantry was needed inthe mix.
I agree. The author was the problem, like many authors he doesn't seem to have a deep knowledge of the TO&E and how the Army Ground Forces adjusted it over time. Part of the infantry issue in the mechanized forces is that the battalion was in the range of ~800 men compared to ~1000 for a standard infantry division. That 800 also included a higher percentage of drivers, mechanics, and other non-riflemen, though it sure had a lot more .50 cals..... @@executivedirector7467
Amazing that Middleton's own biographer played down his role in favour of Patton. Difficult to counteract all the propaganda when people that know the truth still jump on a bandwagon.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Great presentation on VIII Corps during Cobra making the breakthrough and turning it into a rapid break out. Loved the discussion of the role of the armored divisions.
Excellent discussion and presentation. Thank you Paul and Kevin.
One thing I like about this channel is the introduction of personalities little known like Middleton, Collins, Ridgeway and others. A good source for later in the war about Middleton's role in Bastogne (bulge) is 'The Bitter Woods' and other battalion and corp commanders roles. Glad I cought the replay. Another good show.
Ridgeway is well documented in "4 Hours of Fury" too
Patton bragged about how well he scored at the Army War College against his classmates, many of whom became the Army General Staff in WW2. Middleton was in that class and graduated ahead of Patton but didn't need to remind everyone. Patton was career Army, Middleton a highly decorated infantry commander that had returned to civilian life. Both Patton and Middleton were fighters. Middleton knew France, he knew Belgium, and he knew Germany because in 1918-19 he fought for then occupied almost the same exact ground. He knew the logistics of moving men and materiel from the ports of France to the Rhine because as a young battalion commander he had done it 25 years earlier.
From Pancho Villa to Joachim Piper Middleton fought against the best and won. Middleton served 488 days in combat during WW2, more than any other American General. There are many famous American commanders in WW2 that everyone has heard about most of which were career Army. Then there are those commanders like Middleton, equally accomplished on both the battlefield and in civilian life, whose names are found on the second page of the history of WW2.
I had heard of General Middleton through my great-grandmother Middleton, but only recently determined how he was my cousin (one state over in Louisiana!) For me, it's been a 24-hour crash course about his military career. Thank you for this video - greetings from Texas...
🌿⭐🌿
Another masterclass by Kevin Hymel. Always learning from him and certainly has opened my eyes on Middletons role in making Cobra a success with the use of armor to make the breakthrough to Coutances. Hope to see him again to talk more about the post Avranches breakout and perhaps other 3rd Army campaigns e.g. Metz
General Middleton was my great-great uncle and I've heard so many stories from his nephew, my great grandfather. It was nice to find a video discussing his role in the European theatre. Thanks for this
Very cool!
He will feature heavily in the book I am writing
It was great to listen in on a conversation between two experts on the campaign in Normandy. The role played by General Middleton was overshadowed by Patton's arrival as the Third Army Commander. In some ways it reminded me of General Macarthur's habit of taking the credit for the hard work of subordinates in the Pacific. If things went well it was always their orders which were responsible for the success, but let something go wrong.....it was the fault of the Corp Commander, or the Divisional Commander. Middleton was a fine soldier and an excellent leader who was not prone to panic or rash decisions. Good presentation from two excellent historians!!
Some Army Commanders had big public affairs departments, catering to reporters and congress.
excellent show; Kevin is a terrific presenter and teacher of ww2 military history; his knowledge of this history is superb. And, Woody is just the best of the best of hosts for all things ww2!
My grandfather was with 8 Corps from Normandy to Bastogne with the 1308th combat Engineers (GS) Regiment until the 1308th's re-deployment to the Pacific for the Okinawa invasion.
Another great one. Thanks, Woody and Kevin. Highlighting more non-Pattons is always a good thing re setting the record straight.
Another great show with Kevin Hymel.
An excellent presentation! I really learned alot about VIII Corps today. I really appreciated Kevin giving a shout out to my favorite TV show at the beginning of his talk!
Another fine presentation. Well done Kevin and Paul.
Woody, if you didn't know that silly hat was a kid's toy in the US in the 1970's inspired by a Television program.
Good for you on this show, Middleton needs more time in the spotlight!
WW2 is the first war in US history when the National Guard has been reorganized and is equiped and trained at the same level as the regular army when a war starts; WW1 is the war in the transition period from the poorly trained/equiped State Militias to the National Guard, so some NG divisions are in better shape and more organized on the Army model than others.
US Army was fully motorized/mechanized in WW2, in Korea we were back to using horses and mules in some roles.
Kevin’s presentations are joy to watch, another General a new name to me, thanks Kevin and Paul.
Thank you for covering Middleton 's contribution of Cobra and his divisions performance.
I just bought "Patton's Photographs: War as He Saw It" at Amazon, while watching, and because of this excellent presentation.
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Another great show. Just finished James Holland's Normandy book so the timing was perfect. I have to add Kevin's books to my reading list.
Another great show, very insightful and informative. It is fantastic that #WW2 TV is providing such content, giving coverage to the lesser known personalities of the war. The real leaders, the real fighters, deserve to be acknowledged and remembered much more so that the ego driven, publicity hunters who often got the accolades. Thanks to Kevin for sharing his knowledge, and to #WW2TV for giving us such a great platform of education.
Thanks to you both. I walked away with more historical knowledge and insight into these incredible weeks of the war. Kudos.
Great presentation from Kevin, yet again. I love his enthusiasm, and the details.
Another brilliant presentation by Kevin. Very well done. Thank you.
Terrific job guys---thanks!
This was a great and very informative discussion.
"I don't need his legs, I need his brain." -Ike on Middleton before D-Day
Great video!
Never knew the 4th Armored was supposed to be the most famous US armored division during WW2. 2nd and 3rd are far more well known now, as they were in the thick of more prominent battles. 👍
Hi Paul.
I know you were reluctant to talk too much about the role of the Rhinos during Cobra, and I know you are in the camp that credits them greatly in the breakout. I've found the article by Stephen Zaloga which I mentioned in your 'ask me anything' broadcast. Here are some excerpts which may be of interest (email me if you'd like a link to the full article - alongside Carafano's book, it certainly offers a different perspective, one which has certainly made me think twice compared with what I used to say on tour)...
'The use of the Rhino tanks in Operation Cobra has become something of legend… One recent study of Cobra, Col. James Carafano's 'After D-Day', goes so far as to label the stories of the Rhino tanks a myth. Certainly, the importance of the Rhino tanks has tended to be exaggerated. It is an appealing tale of ingenuity in the heat of battle. It makes for a good story, particularly in popular histories and in television documentaries…
Were the Rhino tanks effective? In fact, there is very little evidence. Some tank units that used Rhino devices on the first day of the battle, 25 July, found that they were no panacea. The problem was not so much the Rhinos as the pre-attack bombardment which churned up the pastures, which made it difficult to charge across the fields and build up enough speed to breach the hedgerows…
Other units such as the 3rd Armored Division had little luck with the hedge cutters. But they had been added to their tanks at the very last minute with little chance to practice the new tank-infantry tactics… In fact, operational accounts of the 2nd Armored Division in Cobra provide few indications that the devices ever played much of a role...
Tankers that I have interviewed over the years had mixed feelings about the Rhinos. Some said that the Rhino worked, but that it was hard on the crew. Others said they hardly ever used it, as once the break-through began, the situation was so fluid that it was seldom needed…
Whether effective or not, the Rhino tanks have become one of the popular legends of the Normandy campaign, and are likely to remain so in spite of debunking by historians.'
A show with yourself and Stephen debating the relative merit and worth would be very interesting ;-)
Thanks for that addition (or addendum), Stuart. If nothing else it demonstrates the versatility of the M4, with the Rhino as sort of an extension from the Funnies - themselves being a mixed bag in terms of success.
I'm not sure I credit them greatly, but I do think having them was a significant psychological boost to the crews - at least in theory. As you say, in practice their experiences were varied. Plus in the few moments they were used I think they helped. The other thing to look at is the terrain. Once you get beyond the bombed rectangle there is still bocage for a few miles before it opens up. Of course we know that by the time they got to these areas, the Germans were largely broken and the vanguard used the roads. But if that had not been the case, I think the Rhinos may have been employed. So I agree that their use was limited, but I'm glad they had them - maybe the best way to describe them is an insurance policy.
Steve Zaloga will be on talking about the DDs, but I could ask him on to talk about rhinos too
@@WW2TV thanks for your reply Paul - maybe I was reading too much into what you said the other day, as in "where they were used, they were vital". I thought that meant in the physical sense, rather than psychological, you can maybe see where the confusion arose, vital is quite a definitive word.
@@NormandyBattleTours Yep vital was not the right choice of word. Important maybe, but not vital. Have you read the 3rd Armor Div history, there's some distinct praise in there for Rhinos in first few hours of Cobra
@@WW2TV fair enough. Is it the official divisional history you mentioned (republished by Battery Press)? If so, I haven't got that one (I bought a load from them around 10 years ago - very good books but very expensive - the shipping charges to France were about the same as what I paid for the books). Anyway, looking forward to Stephen's rearranged programme - any idea when its being rescheduled for?
That was a fair discussion Paul, and the level of detail that was used ,excellent as ever ,however did I hear you say the reason why the Americans were able to drive like they could ,is because they did not encounter the amounts of German armour like the British and the Canadians did in and around Caen ??
Yes, specifically VIII Corps. VII Corps met more to the east, but VIII only really faced a few bits and pieces of stray armour. Certainly not the volume that was facing the DUKE forces
Logistics, Logistics.
The author confuses the concepts of square/triangular divisions and heavy/light divisions. Infantry divisions were shifted from square to triangular in 1940-1941. Cavalry divisions remained square for the entire war. Armorned divisions were never square. They were reorganized in September of 1943 to become lighter as they were tank heavy and infantry poor, with the Second and Third remaining heavy. The other divisions including Fourth and Sixth Armored were ‘light’ but still infantry poor as the armorned infantry battalions were smaller than the infantry version. Generally a good presentation but Lord he confused this point.
US armored divisions had a 1:1:1 ratio between tank battalions, mech infantry battalions and SP artillery battalions, which was a pretty advanced idea for the time. Earlier in the war, it was thought that a higher ratio of tank units was needed. This idea was widespread, not just in the US Army.
As the campaign unfolded, it looks to me like it became fairly common to do large-scale cross-attachments. For example, attaching entire infantry regiments to armored divisions (giving them in effect three more infantry battalions) or attaching entire AD Combat Commands to infantry divisions. All this suggests that there was a widespread belief that even more infantry was needed inthe mix.
I agree. The author was the problem, like many authors he doesn't seem to have a deep knowledge of the TO&E and how the Army Ground Forces adjusted it over time. Part of the infantry issue in the mechanized forces is that the battalion was in the range of ~800 men compared to ~1000 for a standard infantry division. That 800 also included a higher percentage of drivers, mechanics, and other non-riflemen, though it sure had a lot more .50 cals..... @@executivedirector7467
Amazing that Middleton's own biographer played down his role in favour of Patton. Difficult to counteract all the propaganda when people that know the truth still jump on a bandwagon.
Yep, its so unfortunate he's fallen out of the narrative
You about fell asleep. lol
Who fell asleep?
Middleton was born and bred in Mississippi, not Louisiana
You feel better now do you?
@@WW2TV Accuracy matters pendejo - he was my second cousin, so yeah I feel better.