That scene where the main character started doing backflips and using telekinesis has to be one of the biggest jumping the shark moments I’ve seen in awhile. Its like swapping to a spiderman game mid way through LA noire.
That's why Yahtzee coined the term "Indigo Prophecy Syndrom" to describe a story that starts off mostly grounded, but takes a sudden left turn into Nonsenseville by the end.
@@legomaniac213 Hancock too, from grounded slow burn "Super powered guy slowly tries to be a hero and not a super hobo" to "twinned immortal demi gods and a storm is coming what were we talking about again?"
The first hour of Fahrenheit has so much promise. A proper cat and mouse chase with the police (that you're got some control over), a morally conflicted family member and a mysterious crime. David Cage could've weaved something more grounded out of that but then Lucas starts backflipping over mind termites.
Same thought. I remember playing the demo, which was the after murder scene at the diner, and think "This is going to be the best game ever". Then halfway through I was constantly WTF-ing. Then they intorduced the AIs and stopped caring alltogether.
The demo was brilliant..the full game I found interesting up until the Giant ticks started showing up, i mean why bugs, it's not like it was a phobia of his that was explained earlier in the game
It's not even that backflipping over mind termites is a bad development. You just can't shift directly into that from Grounded Adventure Game. You need to ease into the madness over time, and Fahrenheit doesn't do that.
50:20 - Having carefully analyzed this footage, I believe the martial art that's being utilized here is called "Garry's Mod Ragdoll with Thrusters Attached to Their Limbs" martial art. You don't see that too often outside of Mayan culture.
And now I'm imagining that scene with the Gmod Ragdoll sound effects going over it, and I somehow take it even LESS seriously. Thank you so much for this Christmas gift!
That transition from slow, psychological horror to wire-kung fu was as jarring as if half-way through Schindlers List we hear the classic Superman theme as the Man of Steel slowly descends into the concentration camp and fist-fights Amon Göth who turns out to be General Zod in disguise.
But the fight is interrupted when The Turing Machine gains sentience and sends foo fighters (from the future) to steal the crystal skull buried underneath Oscar Schindler's childhood home.
I love the David Cage rants in this episode. This man played 1 and like 1/10th of a Quantic Dream game and that was more than enough for Ross to know that David Cage is not of this world and does NOT come in peace.
@@lokalnyork Beyond isn't weird. It's basically misery porn with a protagonist who is so beaten by life, that she curves around to being a Mary Sue again. But hey, it has realistic tear animations, and by God did they make use of this feature.
You don't even choose those endings either. You only get the orange or purple clan endings if you fail to defeat them, so they're more like extended "Game Overs" than actual endings.
The silliest unmentioned element of the story is that The Oracle just had to choose a completely random person to murder another completely random person, both among billions of people in the whole wide world, and he picks to possess exactly the one guy who got dunked in chroma as a kid and was a dormant jedi master.
What's also stupid is that these killings are apparently always done in the same area, judging by how the police have files of previous killings. Why couldn't the Oracle just pick two yokels in a third world country that is corrupt af, teeming with drug cartels and/or war-torn? Life can be pretty cheap there.
From what I remember, The oracle have done the sacrifice ritual with a stranger proxy every 5 years or so. For hundreds of years. And only at that one time with Lucas, he chose somebody with chroma in him by accident. That makes the scenario a lot less implausible. I played this game years ago so not sure I'm 100% correct here.
"Nietzsche didn't know kung fu! You're adding to many skittles to your vegetables, fahrenheit!" This is a real sentence that, somehow, makes sense, all because of the wonder of David Cage and our boy Ross. God bless
I wouldn't count a training match as true violence. In that scene the man isn't trying to hurt the woman; they're both trying to improve each other's unarmed combat skills through practice.
@@jamestown8398 Yeah but cant deny it looks ridiculous. Like, you would see this kind of stuff in Street Fighter or something, this is not "casual sparring"
As someone who: •Sleeps in my boxers in 20f weather with the window open and one blanket •Currently lives in new york And •Feels Neutral when I'm at 100% This game is pretty on the mark.
Can't say I agree that the set ups are amazing. The protagonist losing his son in Heavy Rain is one of the dumbest starts to a game I've ever seen and its just a convoluted detective story with no subtlety.
*watches a single man do superhuman/supernatural abilities to knock out multiple cops and outrun a helicopter* "Next time, we'll get him" Bruh, like no shock about it whatsoever
So one of the big reasons why this game seems to start out well, but then go off the rails, is that at one point in development Cage decided he wanted the game to be one part of a seven part game series. Like, even getting a sequel isn't guaranteed and he wanted SIX of them. When told he couldn't get his way, he compressed (apparently) six games worth of material into the last half of the game.
The bit where the child jumped into the lake, you can try to save him if you have enough sanity. If you succeed, the cop from the diner sees you. He then refuses to recognize Lucas when given his picture. Though the cops still get to you. I forget how. Honestly, I forgot most of what happened in this game after park scene.
I'm pretty sure the cop would always identify Lucas when given the picture but IIRC he'll mention Lucas saving the kid at the park to Carla if you chose to do that.
He doesn't report you immediately, but he does tell Carla eventually during the evidence linking scene. He's one of the two "freebies", along with the initials inside The Tempest, allowing you to complete that scene even if you completely botch the investigation/hide all the evidence.
"you can try to save him if you have enough sanity." I'm pretty sure it's the opposite. You save him to get some sanity. And you can walk away instead at the cost of mental health.
I've been clinically depressed for the best part of 11 years, and let me tell you the 100% being Neutral is really damn accurate, and having even the smallest of things have a significantly negative affect on you is accurate too.
I should point out that Lucas, Tyler, AND Carla are all on the same system. As for the depression, I've had major depression in the past and was in a complete state of anhedonia (I developed a patch of grey hair during that time too despite being 19-20). The only thing that ended up working on me was bupropion for what it's worth.
@@Accursed_Farms Bupropion has been the only pharmaceutical that’s really worked for my depression as well and it’s great that it helps treat ADHD too. I’m not making a useful comment and it’s a common illness but I find it cool one of my favorite creators is willing to share some personal info like that. To the OP, I also feel the same way about depression. It’s like your brain is hyper-tuned to find and ruminate on all the negatives. The constant low makes the neutral days feel so weird and noteworthy when it should just be normal.
@@Accursed_Farms Ah now THAT is just bad game design. Shame, I was hoping the game had got that right. And sorry my comment came across as far more passive aggressive than I intended. Never had Burpropion as I don't think the British NHS uses it, but for me the only medication that worked was a high dose of Duloxetine.
@@shogun2215 The NHS does NOT use it. Not for depression anyway which is moronic as Duloxetine is both much, much more expensive, and has much, much worse side effects. The only thing they'll use it for is smoking cessation. Again, moronic, as it was developed as an anti-depressant, and its one of the very few drugs effective for treatment resistant cases.
57:05 No no, Ross. What's worse is that they share a kiss and BOTH OF THEM keep their eyes open. It has the same energy as making a Barbie and Ken doll kiss.
"I can't tell if the director knows he created a creepy flesh automaton or is just oblivious to the concept of Uncanny Valley." As someone who played through this entire game, part of Heavy Rain, and watched LPs of all of his games (including the 2 previously mentioned games, Omikron, Beyond 2 Souls, and Detroit Become Human), I can comfortably say the answer to this statement is more than likely "Both." David Cage is somehow simultaneously both the embodiment and antithesis of the infamous quote from Garth Merenghi's Darkplace "I know writers who use subtext and they are all cowards."
The "your decisions are meaningless" part that stood out to me most when I was first playing, is there was a bit where you could choose if Tyler left the city with his girlfriend or he stayed behind to keep helping the investigation. First time I played I chose to make him leave, then I decided to replay it cause I wanted him to stay in the game. If he stays, you never see him for the rest of the game anyway.
Yes but you knew in your heart that he was still out there, doing his best, and that should have inspired you to do the same. That was the true meaning of that choice. Cage was testing you, testing all of us, to see if we could understand that the outcome of our choices plays out in more than just the video game aspect of the video game. It plays out in our hearts and our minds. David Cage truly made the most video game ever. And we should all be lucky to have been thankful to play it. Or the other way around, I dunno, you choose, doesn't matter anyway.
This is one of my biggest issues with "branching narratives" - most times it will be a sham because, just using simple exponential math, if the plot branches into two options and every single one had a unique result, after three times you're now at 8 different story branches, and At some point, one of your branching paths (if not both) are going to either be dead ends or result in the outcome as a different decision branch path would lead you to. Of course, if you have some really good writers who can properly tackle the narrative, and have the time to make sure all your plot points are fleshed out ... but I think it only really works if you keep each decision branches kind of self-contained (like in a quest).
i find this super baffling in heavy rain, for lack of spoilers: the big twist. you cant have the player perform all sorts of detailled and banale tasks for immersion or whatever and then come around and say: oh btw these really big things also happened, but offscreen. haha we had you play only the unimportant parts, sucker. given the reviews the game got most people seem to like it and think thats great storytelling, but it just doesnt work for me. doesnt feel like some smart maneuver, more like a cheap trick.
I almost died from food poisoning at my inlaws. I held on to toilet knowing if i made it through I would get this s tier game dungeon on a game I still plan to play. Thanks man.
You are a true trooper. I award the highest reward of +100 points. From now on, you may use "+100" to refer to yourself. Or don't. They are your points.
Trust me, my man. Once you play this, or any other Cage game: You'll wish for that moment where you were still shitting your guts out, but were still innocent.
I feel like somebody holding onto a toilet suffering from expulsions while thinking of old video games, is exactly the audience Ross makes these videos for.
I love that whenever a character does something crazy like stab someone else in a game, Ross always goes to the practical angle of how to escape, what to do next - he's immediately in the guy's corner, no matter what he just did.
The “detective partner beats the absolute tar out of his partner kickboxing” made me laugh so hard I almost choked, entered overwrought, and threw myself out a window. What a ride.
@@R3GARnator I would gladly read a Fahrenheit Carla ryona doujin. As long as it doesn't devolve into pure guro, since that's a bit too much for my taste.
Man, when Ross got to the attack of the furniture sequence, all I could hear was Woolie yelling, "GET READY!!" and just being a hype man the entire sequence.
Good. It wasn't just me, then. Woolie's joy at that sequence is so infectious that I can't dislike how stupid it is. I recently rewatched the sadness trilogy. Masterpieces.
"THE PHONE!" "Yo! I got these chairs at IKEA, now I gotta dodge them." "Not Berserk Volume 1! Not Berserk Volume 2! Not Berserk Volume 3!" "I threw everything you had at you..."
"And I have to wonder if this explanation is based on testimony from an ACTUAL homeless person" had me in tears for several moment, that was pure comedy gold
It's like the writer took Terrible Writing Advice videos seriously. "If you see any audience members flying past, then don't worry. That's just the mood whiplash launching them out of the story"
It's a shame he skipped the part where the game awkwardly rebounds to a scene right after where the cops are getting chewed out by the chief of police. As if Lucas hatched a cunning plan to narrowly escape capture, and it was Karla and Tyler's fault for not adequately preparing for the possibility that their murder suspect would manage to kung-fu kick a police helicopter out of the sky.
@@ReturnOfHeresy No it is becase Cage is shit at storytelling. You don't get to claim budget problems or that the producers are at fault when it is the same exact escalating nonsensical storyline that is a problem in every game Cage ever made. The fact is that Cage is just really, really shit at telling a coherent narrative.
I feel like a bunch of developers came together with a great idea for a realistic crime/detective cat and mouse game. Then they met up at a studio without ever realizing the water was contaminated and there was an obelisk in the basement.
This is a David Cage game. So maybe the rest of the team was unaware. But he sure wasn't. He put the obelisk there, and laced the water himself. He's that kind of guy.
Also Ross came to the same conclusion that the Super Best Friends did, in that David Cage needs extra writers to keep his ideas in check because otherwise you end up with stupid kung fu in the air.
Or maybe he just needs to stop writing because he is terrible at it. The first part of the story is very basic. The second part totally nonsensical and shit. The third part is just total garbage.
@@GeorgeMonet While basic it at least worked with how engaging the scenes were directed and the bit of tension it raised. That all went out the window with bizness bug wanting the player to work late
like someone else said before, i believe it's because this time it was intended to be an episodic series, but atari made them rush the game compressing the whole story into one game, and it resulted in the disaster you see now
@@carcrashjayson Lucas, at this point in the game, is implanted with a chip from the AI to make his body move. Or so David Cage has written. It's implied he's part machine, hence cyborg.
Oh dude thanks for reminding me, had the same thought when he was talking about that. Actually the only game I can think of that has a branching storyline like that.
@@RupertAndCheese I can actually think of a couple other examples, but most of them are arcade driving games where the "branching" just amounts to you picking left or right at the end of the stage (which takes you to different backgrounds or whatever). The only other story-focused game I can think of that did something like that was... Neverending Nightmare? I think that's what it was called?
Funnily enough, there's a Modded version of the game that really fixes a lot of its problems, and makes it infinitely more playable. Worth a revisit if you can find the Mod.
I played this fever dream of a game years ago and I remember that when the "psychic wheelchair lady ghost" turned into this "AI construct or something" I thought that my specific path of choices at some point broke the game and I ended up in between two or more conflicting storylines. My theory is that initially David Cage attempted to make an interactive story where your choices not only affect the outcome, but the tone of the game, the gameplay itself and even the backstory: Do you want this to be a procedural crime drama, a fully fledged supernatural horror/triller or a kung-fu "chosen one" Matrix knock off?. None of that mattered because they ran out of time and money, so they just threw everything togheter for you to experience in a linear way and baffle as its inner logic gradually collapse. It's like playing Silent Hill and stumbling across the dog ending, but then the game keeps going and expects you to take it seriously.
The overall lore was meant to be more gradual (apparently it was originally episodic) but publisher/budget meant that episode 1 needed to be everything, so they dump it all on you in a mad rush at the end.
@@playoffl36ron8 It does have similar themes. Though I find the Indigo Prophecy lore to have more existential horror. In The Matrix earth is important (the true reality); individual humans are like livestock with some value; and the central conflict is between humans and their oppressors. In Indigo prophecy earth is a backwater farm; humans are merely fertile dirt on that farm; and the central conflict is between interdimensional ubermensch farmers, interdimensional uber-machine thieves, and interdimensional eco-terrorists.
David Cage is indeed oblivious to the Uncanny Valley. He's also oblivious to human decency, human working conditions, and good writing. Thank you for this wonderfully cursed Christmas gift, Ross!
Detroit Become Human is great at the buddy cop parts, but I heard the actors took over at some parts for delivery and lines. Every other part kinda stunk... it's also probably not the best "social justice" message to equate women and minorities to washing machines and bots literally made for labor. So yeah david cage is pretty oblivious to humanity as a whole.
I remember while playing this game I was almost softlocked because once your character's mental health becomes too low, it immediately triggers a failure state. It was a very funny scene for it to happen on too, Carla was having her fortune read which is necessary to progress, but she receives a bad omen and becomes so worried that she immediately turns in her badge and gun and quits the investigation. Oh yeah, I'm sure New York police detectives would be scared out of an investigation and fear for their life over a tarot card reading.
As much as I hate to defend the game, the idea behind that seems to be that her heads already in tatters and she's on the verge of cracking anyway, that incident was the last straw.
Shit wasn't even a proper Tarot reading. Like, sure, you should be at least a bit concerned when you pull Death, but that's because it signifies a major change in circumstance rather than actual literal death. The Tower would've been a more concerning card for a cop to get. But, like the Maya beliefs and (somehow, despite it being rather common in France) the Catholic beliefs, Cage and his writers don't actually *know* anything about all these plot elements they throw at the woodchipper.
This game’s plot is really similar to Onision’s 3rd book, which is the one where his self insert gets superpowers and battles god. It even has the same thing where it switches from kinda normal to completely off the rails halfway through. Which tells me that, based solely on their work, David Cage has a similar writing ability to Onision.
Well if everything a writer writes is always inconsistent and full of illogical nonsense, something they only wrote because they wanted to write it and not because it was necessary for them to write it then they are objectively a bad writer. So yes, David Cage is a bad writer.
WW2/Korean war soldier patrolling Area 51 "Yes David... Tell me you know nothing about military history without telling me you know nothing about military history"
Ross mentioned games having a warning about not trying to be fun at the start at 27:22. Pathologic 2 actually has a disclaimer at the start saying that although you can lower the difficulty, it was meant to be played on the hardest option, and that it's intentionally meant to be tedious at times. And it's a great game, partly because of those tedious parts.
this is the kind of thing I'm rooting for deep learning + human creativity to solve. For all the downsides of the automation of imagination, getting an actual full featured cyoa game that isn't a lemon model would be amazing.
The biggest thing I could never get over was when when the insylum captives get realease and the patients are treated like literal Jurassic Park-esque monsters. "Oh no, I hear one coming!" is a quote I will always remeber.
That whole sequence would have been so much better if failing it just resulted in one of the imates touching your shoulder and going "Excuse me mamm, are you lost? In case of emergency we're supposed to go to the cafeteia and await assistance." And then you just wait with them while the power gets turned back on.
@@inurokuwarz honestlyyyy. It would have been remarkable if the tension in the segment was actually caused by the detective being paranoid and falsely assuming the worst. But that would have required the kind of foresight of a disco elysium developer rather than david "how many s*xual assaults and racist scenes can I squeeze into my games" cage
except choices super don't matter there because your actions in one level only effect which level you go to next, and have no logical connection to why and no story effects... hell, the closest any of the levels ever get to being related is that one magical ruins level where the dark mission is to activate the evil magic, and a later level where those same ruins are now flying, but in oder to have both of those in the same playthrough you need to do the hero mission in the level after the first one and it's just stupid... also the level where you blow up the president doesn't kill the president.... what a weird sentence that is...
I would say that Ross would have a riot of a time with that game, but he was shockingly chill with Sonic Heroes where I was expecting him to have much more issue with the repetitive design of the game, the butter physics controls, homing attack not working, the voice acting, and Team Chaotix. But it also sounds like he never played much of the other 3D Sonic games of the era including either of the Adventure games.
@@RipOffProductionsLLC While the execution specifically in Shadow the Hedgehog was awful, the actual framework is there. You choose your path in the level, and this chooses where you'll go next. Certain stage paths get locked out by the halfway point unless you're dead center on the map. Each path has its own bits of lore attached. But a much better example of how to do this is Star Fox 64. No convoluted moral choice system, no overt "do this so you can take this pathway," it's all about learning the secrets of a stage in order to map your own route through the game. The only "bad" part is that there are only two endings, but you get to experience a different story depending on what paths you choose, and/or which secrets you succeed or fail at completing.
@@silverlight6074I remember picking up a game that used a similar level branch structure called Stories: the Path of Destinies. Wouldn’t recommend-Shadow is guilty pleasure fun at least, Stories was just boring-but it did improve upon the structure on paper. Almost purely on paper, but still. First, you got a choice of levels to play for each step of the journey, but what those choices were and why was based on what you’d accomplished in the previous level, or even what you didn’t. For example, one of your first choices is to go get the rig for this super weapon before the evil toad army can find it; if you DON’T pick that, the roads get the rig. You can still go for the core on your next mission, but you can no longer complete the weapon yourself. After stage two, routes start getting locked down, but that’s still better than most “choice based games”: instead of hinging the endings on a single choice at the very end, it’s your choices at the start of a run that have the most impact. Second is that it actually did Shadow’s true ending deal in a much more interesting manner. The 30+ normal endings fall into four categories, four truths as the game calls them. Which sounds fake profound, but the “truths” are simply important facts about the situation (for example, that the super weapon I mentioned is actually extremely dangerous and can kill the user). Once you’ve learned all four, you can finally defeat the toad army by using that knowledge to your advantage. Again though, this is all good purely on paper. In practice, Stories is far more repetitive than Shadow ever was. Shadow at least had a unique stage for each point on its flowchart; Stories has, like, 10, and every one beyond the set of first stages…well, you’ll be seeing them a lot. Oh, and you thought you’d be free of Westopolis syndrome because you get a choice of first levels? Nope, the final level is the exact same regardless of route. The gameplay is extremely repetitive too: in a vacuum it’s fine, low grade isometric hack and slash, but it’s not fine for several cycles.
The “flight” in Wuxia movies (fantasy kung fu films) like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is rooted in Chinese mythology and folklore. It’s a convention of the genre, just as wizards are a convention of western high fantasy and superpowers are a convention of superhero films. There’s a RUclips video that talks about it called “Why People Fly in Kung Fu Movies: The Evolution of Wuxia.”
A friend sent me something recently about an early Jewish mythological story about Judas Iscariot discovering the true name of God and using it to engage in a flying martial arts match with Jesus. Judas beats Jesus and hangs him because the Jews think that Jesus was the most evil man to ever live. Fun fact.
@@RabbiHerschel not far off lol, christians believe he's the same person as God in addition to being his son so since God destroyed the entire world that would make Jesus pretty evil.
@@RabbiHerschel Interactions between completely conceptually irreconcilable religions are the funniest thing to me. Jewish or Islamic authorities claiming "We believe Jesus was a prophet, but not the messiah" and statements like that. Blaspheming their own religion for the sake of peace and a facade for coexistence, when really they either don't care or genuinely think the other is a wrongful dumbass. Not to be all r/atheism, but man, no religion stands up in any relation to any other religion, because proof for both is zilch and everyone just makes up their own world view anyways, reducing all religious groups larger than a family into complete irrelevance, hidden under a umbrella of vagueness, they call "Interpretation".
@Reac2 So sad to see such a lack of faith in the divine. I pray that one day your eyes will be opened and you will be touched by the Flying Spaghetti Monster's noodly appendage.
"Afterlife wheelchair" is perhaps the funniest combination of words I've ever heard (and a pretty good band name). Imagine being disabled and thinking you wont be bound to a wheelchair once you die, but nope.
As a writer, there is something I've discovered that I like to call the, "Wouldn't it be cool urge." It is the urge to have to write something into your story just because you think it would be cool. The problem is doing something because you think it would be cool sometimes stomps all over tone, development and basic logic. You have to take a good look at what you are writing and sometimes excise the cool things in service of the story making sense. David Cage seems to be 100% fuelled by the "Wouldn't it be cool urge."
He's 100% fueled by the "wouldn't it be cool urge" but the worst part is, there's no one to stop him or say "no!" to him since he's also the big boss at Quantic Dream.
Wouldn't it be cool if the detective in Heavy Rain had some kind of cybernetic augmented reality interface that requires drugs to use without blowing his brain up but depends on them too much and is blowing his brain up anyway, in a setting without any other sci-fi bullshit?
@@RupertAndCheese Wouldn't it be cool if I made (the artist formerly known as) Ellen Page do a shower scene in my game and model her nude only for myself?
see also, every madison scene in heavy rain that isn't centered around ethan. There was zero reasonable excuse for her scenes to be the way they are, even setting aside the skeeviness of them. The murder surgeon in particular. Just why.
I think we're entering an age of Game Dungeons. We no longer get the cutesy high concept retro/pixel computer games that we had before, now we get the high concept serious and gritty adventure games which really looks like Deus Ex or System Shock.
remember how one of the first things you do in Omikron is fuck a dude's wife with his own body? that's some next-level cuckoldry, and it's not even plot reverent.
The one thing I was hoping Ross would do is touch on the ingame news article you can access on the detective's computer where director JACKSON PETERS is lauding the directorial vision of the new movie adaptation of David Cage's world-renowned screenplay, Omikron. It's the most aggressive and out of nowhere bit of autofellatio I think I've ever seen.
@@MediaMunkee "It's the most aggressive and out of nowhere bit of autofellatio I think I've ever seen." worse than sex scene, in front of a camera, from TloU2 with autoinsert of dunkmann? On a console that's heavily censoring NSFW content while giving his game free pass?
Man this plot is like a normal night that slowly descends into an LSD-raddled schizophrenic meltdown party. I have vivid memories of watching Jesse Cox play this game like 10 years ago and man I forgot about how quick the game did a 180
If the Super _(No Longer)_ Best Friends taught me anything, it's that nothing good can possibly come from David Cage's games, especially his earliest work. All roads lead to Omikron, Ross- _You are playing a _*_Dangerous_*_ game!_
Oh man, the omikron lets play was a trip...Most lets plays build towards just one big, aggravating moment, like a puzzle that makes no godadmn sense or a boss that is impossibly tuned. The omikron play through had _so many_ of those moments, there were like three or four big, friendship destroying frustration moments that made you think the lets play was over.
It took Ross such a long time to acknowledge what a crazy turn the story took, I doubted he was going to do it at all. He got me! :D Don't look up anything else about David Cage, Ross. Preserve your sanity. Let the weird Matrix fighting in this game be all you know about him.
It honestly made me ignore the crazy shit until I was like "Wait did he just say he jumped 20 feet in the air!?" and I look back to the video enthralled. David Cage is something else man.
@@dingleberryliespewer3177 "So, I need to kill myself drinking poison, so thing guy I can't Reincarnate into touches my body, thus by-passing his immunity to the reincarnation spell... so I can then ride his wooly-rhino-bull thing... so I can use it to move this rock... and then go on foot... WHY? I think the Nomad Soul is an asshole... then again he did sleep with a dude's wife while he was in the dude's body, so I suppose that's not out of character..."
At least in Heavy Rain, you can mess up so badly that Ethan is jailed about half-way through the game, or just wander off from the killer's trials without playing his game. The killer is very irked at the end of the game that the FBI agent shows up rather than Ethan
Same. It's identical, somehow. It just combines regular "choices matter" narrative gameplay into some of its mission objectives, which are ludicrously hard compared to others and almost force you down certain paths through likely failure.
Sadly that game isn't really respected for that ambition. Heck, I can't even respect it because my copy is bugged and I can't even see every path because certain objectives simply don't get triggered or important enemies or npcs get stuck in walls. Still, the game is massive and lived up to Sonic's hype at the time.
As somebody who likes watching wire-fu combat from time to time, I think the thing about it is that people flying around punching each other kind of occupies the same headspace as wizards throwing fireballs at each other. That's just how the magic works in that storytelling tradition, and you either like it or don't. As to whether or not the scene is GOOD, though, I don't think so.
It works in the right context when a precedent is set for that. No one cares when it's in The Matrix or an anime or a WuXia film, but when it comes out of nowhere in a story that seems to take place in a normal and gritty world and suddenly those tropes get shoved in, it causes cognitive dissonance. This is why Cage rubs people the wrong way. It takes a lot of skill to get people really invested in something kind of ridiculous. Cage doesn't have that kind of self awareness, it's just arbitrary crazy shit.
what always bothers me about wuxia style movies is when people jump around, punching and attacking one another, and no one gets wounded or properly pummeled.
@@boarfaceswinejaw4516 There's definitely a sliding scale with these things. The Jet Li movie from the series where he plays Wong Feihung generally contains some borderline mario jump physics, but the ringed broadsword fight is also really satisfying and brutal. Skilled storytellers will generally be able to communicate power, skill, damage, and impact no matter what the genre is, but there's a point in any movie genre where people have a grasp of how to do the effects but not really how to use them. Which, among other factors, is how you get some of the really dumb-looking stuff that happens in marvel movies.
@@boarfaceswinejaw4516 Different strokes, I suppose. I get pretty excited by a lot of different styles of stage combat storytelling, and kind of have different moods for all of them. There's a time and place for super clean and graceful stuff, gritty and gorey, or something in the middle. Hell, there's even a lot of fun still to be had in pro wrestling imo.
The multi-camera trick is probably inspired by Brian de Palma's films. I don't know if he was the first to do it (multiple exposure techniques date back to the silent era) but this specific style of dividing the shots with black bars was pretty much popularized by him. De Palma was also known for making crime thrillers (some of them with supernatural elements e.g. Carrie) so the influence is even more likely in this case
I've never seen a game change its tone so quickly, this is hilarious. It went from "Detroit becomes human with a slight hint of paranormal" to "Yakuza fighting simulator on crack" what the actual fuck
Cripes, I remember this game. Especially the part where you can be so bad at climbing a drainpipe that you turn yourself in to the police, and the way the story goes completely off the rails in the second half.
Mass Effect is halarious with how it tries to make you stick to the script. There's a guy on youtube named Many A True Nerd who did a run though all 3 games where he had the least amount of characters possible. By ME3 it reads like a GM who realizes his entire campain has gone off the rails and is desperatly trying get to end cause he's too proud to just kill it.
MATN is pretty fun I remember a few years ago he did a Fallout 3 run with the gimmick of "kill as many plot-important characters as possible without breaking the game"
Mass Effect's approach to choice-based gameplay was really more of a right choice/wrong choice one - somewhat like an adventure puzzler within a cover-shooter RPG.
Awww Yeah! David Cage time! Indigo Prophecy is one of those games that's really fun to make other people play so you can watch as their understanding of reality fall apart.
@@Doctor-Infinite i think its better than this. A LOT better. It has more problems though but those stem mostly from it being better as a game, strangely enough, so finishing it is less likely than this. The world is more fantstical too in it but makes more sense.
Nooo c'mon that's unfair to Cage. Breen is insane. I'd label Cage a "we have Kojima at home" kinda director. Honestly even that is not the best comparison.
@@homeygfunkoffacherryfruitl4971 I can't believe he compared Cage to Breen. I cannot believe he compared Cage to Breen. How could he do this? How could he compare Cage to Breen?
Seriously. This is probably my new favorite game dungeon episode. I love the philosophical discussions about the game and how it's waging a civil war on you mentally. That jump from a moody crime drama story to a modern kung fu movie was amazing.
I was going to say Peter Molyneux deserves that crown, but then I remember Molyneux & his team have delivered some all time classics in the past, even if he has been guilty of over promising.
The only good parts of David Cage games are parts not written by him (like Hank and Connor in Detroit, which apparently Cage hated and resisted every step of the way)
That makes me curious. According to my Steam, I played almost 18 hours of Omikron in 2015. I have no knowledge of this, it's missing time. The only thing I know about it is that David Bowie is there. Maybe I need to try again.
I don't think I could ask for a better Christmas present than Ross unwrapping David Cage's journey from a cool detective thriller into weird supernatural nonsense.
39:30 "Next time you won't get away" Always cracks me up, like, bitch, he's literally Neo from Matrix now. What the hell is the NYPD gonna do about it?
I always appreciate your "Ay that's New York!" moments. From machine gunners in the back of vans in Arcade America, to the seizure guy in the bathroom, they've been great
That shift to superhero stuff felt like receiving kickback from getting rearended in the car. It was certainly a bold choice, to say the least. Another certified Ross banger.
The composer was Angelo Balamenti, who is most well known for doing the Twin Peaks series. That score is amazing, but mainly because Twin Peaks is an absolute fever dream. I thiiiiink they were trying emulate that and go for that kind of a narrative but it went so elaborately unsatisfactory that I think nobody could really do a good job saving it.
I remember being so enamored with this at release. They really did sell the "whatever you do has consequences" thing in the scenes. Only to have the plot go to the exact same place with a few minor differences.
The idea of playing as both the investigator and the perpetrator and having ability to make life easier or harder for the other party is a very intriguing concept. Shame it went absolutely nowhere.
When the game Until Dawn came out, it made the same claims, and I was like "aha! I see through your bullshit, you are lying to us, I have played enough Mass Effect and other choice-based video games, I know you are leading us along the tracks and only changing the wallpaper". I still love Until Dawn to be honest, it's a great game and I recommend giving it a go when it's affordable, but please do ignore its bullshit about choices.
@@arciks11 It really is a very fascinating concept, especially with the start of this story having the perpretator have a legitimate reason to get time to try to figure out what the hell is happening
@A Toaster Funnily enough 6 years before Virtue's Last Reward was doing the exact same thing he did in Detroit. I genuinely wonder if he ever played that game, because it definitely feels like it.
@@NiiRubra Most games use the lemon style because when they don't, people often complain about dropped plot threads and missing content. Case in point: Alpha Protocol.
The problem I have with most(if not all) of David Cage's games is that eventually they all become a meta game. Said game involves guessing what movies David Cage was a big fan of while making whichever of his titles you are currently playing. Right off the top of my head I would guess The Matrix and Silence of the Lambs(to a lesser extent) were influential on Fahrenheit. For Heavy Rain, Seven and Saw are the most obvious influences. The ARI interface Agent Jayden uses put me in mind of Minority Report with a dab of Virtuosity. Mind you, you can probably make a drinking game out of this.
@@sneakyskunk1 given the Android Cop, he may have watched 2049 as well, but given how long it takes to make a game like DBH that can’t have been the only influence.
@@paulmahoney7619 That is more or less the fun of his games. Guess the influence, and take a drink every time you do:) On second thought, no don't do that. You might die.
Something you might not have noticed in the opening: you can switch controls between the woman detective and her partner, but only her partner can find the blood splatter clue in the bathroom sink. Carla is too mesmerized by her own reflection to see it... because David Cage always has to be weird about women.
I remember fucking up the making description part on purpose, giving him dreadlocks and stuff. Then there was a part in the game where Lucas sees his description on TV and says that it looks just like him.
I've never commented on your videos before, I think, but after hearing you say you don't really know how to handle Christmas (I assume you meant your Christmas vids), my answer is simply: do what you always do. Each video is already a gift. I enjoy every single one of them. Thanks, Ross. Happy holidays to you and yours.
Not sure what ya do, but mist 24 hour shifts are folks who do really important shit. Even if not, thank you for your hard work, and merry Christmas, ya goober
Indigo Prophecy sets a world speed record for going from "intriguing murder mystery" to "what the fuck even is this" in like no time flat. I think making an adventure game like Ross wants where your choices have real impact is almost impossible, it would take too much time and too many assets. Closest game that gets it right that I can think of is probably Alpha Protocol. In that game you're going from A to B and following a plot, but at least characters react to things you do. Stuff like mission order, how you treat people, if you're stealthy or not, all have effects. There are a TON of variations in conversations and how things play out in that game.
There are some. Others have pointed out already Shadow the Hedgehog may be the most well known, but there's others. For example, Ai: the somnium files has quite a few branches. Witcher 2 also offers very different act 2s based on choices, tho by the end it sorta all merges, Megami Tensei also has a lot of crazy stuff going on depending on choices, and Henry Stickmin type "choose your own adventure" games also come to mimd. Best examples may come from oldschool RPGs tho. Although most do have a general plot independently of choices, they can change drastically how things get there and your experience inbetween. For instance Arcanum has so much hidden dialogue its kind of insane, and for a more modern take on the genre Disco Elysium has so much to unlock. It's not impossible, that's for sure. It takes a lot of trust that the audience will replay it, which is why few dare, but it's not impossible.
The first Dishonored is the best example I can think of where your actions have tangible consequences on the world going forward. If you played violently and killed everyone in your way the city would become more dangerous in later levels with more guard patrols, more rat swarms, more plague infected, etc. The way you play the game will even give you a completely different final level based on your actions.
It definitely is possible, it just isn't in the format of a video game, it's in the format of a tabletop RPG. Only when there is an actual human that can adapt to whatever choices the players make on the fly is it possible to have THAT level of content variation while remaining totally faithful to what the players want to do. There are obviously all kinds of problems unique to that medium, but a good TTRPG can accomplish things with narrative that video games are completely incapable of.
Visual novels are the closest thing but those aren't really games and usually most of them have a true ending. So even if you get a different experience by making a choice, there is still an ending the creators wanted you to reach and the other endings are just a what if scenario.
You know, Quantic Dream when you look at the games they make. They make visually amazing games, awesomely realized set pieces in often realistic settings (even if realism doesn't occur). They can set the bar for a console in terms of visual performances. But then you look at who leads them, and his writing behaviors, and how despite them curtailing him over time trying to reign him in...David Cage takes great efforts to grab his stories, his characters, his settings and absolutely just Gears of War curbstomps the living hell outta them. They become ludicrous, unenjoyable, groan worthy cringe worthy showcases of what not to do with your story if you want someone to take you seriously. If you're Kojima and you add something dumb to your totally not movie inspired movie game, people will praise you for it because it often circles around and can be rewarding in its own right whether its context is in its own universe or reaches out of it. I'm not necessarily defending that, just acknowledging it. But Cage likes to think he makes deep, thought provoking movies. It's like he rents a Olympic swimming pool, but can only afford to fill up near one third of it. So you just get this weird half step into chest high at best water in this giant rectangle hole in the earth and think wow, that was not what I was expecting. And also, not what I wanted. And also, he somehow installed a camera in the womens shower that you're forced to see as you leave that pool. And I don't care if his fans blame that on the French ideal in the movies/show medium. It's still as creepy as that scrapbook he had of Ellen Page.
The idea that what you do as one character affected the other is completely dropped after the diner, and even what you do in the diner doesn't matter. No matter how carefully you make sure to leave no evidence behind, the game makes the book Lucas was reading disappear during his segment. Then during the police segment, you find the book under the table. The inscription and receipt in the book will lead the cops to Lucas no matter what.
Merry Christmas, Ross! David Cage games are the perfect type of entertainment to gather around the fire with friends and family, just to point and laugh at it. What a wonderful time of year!
The cop arresting you in your apartment at the beginning of the game when you tell him not to come in is actually very likely the best ending. Any evidence found by an unlawful search is very susceptible to being thrown out during court considerations. Lukas could have probably walked away a free man if he had any Dollar store lawyer representing him. Game over you win! ✨
Of course, if the department realises this, disciplines that cop, and then detains Lukas anyway for probable cause based on the evidence found at the diner...
That scene where the main character started doing backflips and using telekinesis has to be one of the biggest jumping the shark moments I’ve seen in awhile. Its like swapping to a spiderman game mid way through LA noire.
That's why Yahtzee coined the term "Indigo Prophecy Syndrom" to describe a story that starts off mostly grounded, but takes a sudden left turn into Nonsenseville by the end.
When that happens the game goes off the rails. I'd love to know the reason for that shift. Publisher pressure or Cage
at least the game has the courtasy of giving you a completion percent so you know the EXACT moment everything crumbles
@@BottleWaterson By any chance are you a two best friends play fan? That’s how I discovered the existence of the “shit goes off the rails percentage”
@@legomaniac213
Hancock too, from grounded slow burn "Super powered guy slowly tries to be a hero and not a super hobo" to "twinned immortal demi gods and a storm is coming what were we talking about again?"
The first hour of Fahrenheit has so much promise. A proper cat and mouse chase with the police (that you're got some control over), a morally conflicted family member and a mysterious crime. David Cage could've weaved something more grounded out of that but then Lucas starts backflipping over mind termites.
Same thought. I remember playing the demo, which was the after murder scene at the diner, and think "This is going to be the best game ever". Then halfway through I was constantly WTF-ing. Then they intorduced the AIs and stopped caring alltogether.
The demo was brilliant..the full game I found interesting up until the Giant ticks started showing up, i mean why bugs, it's not like it was a phobia of his that was explained earlier in the game
Someone else could have. Not Cage.
It's not even that backflipping over mind termites is a bad development. You just can't shift directly into that from Grounded Adventure Game. You need to ease into the madness over time, and Fahrenheit doesn't do that.
@@captainufo4587 Yeah, after the demo the main game was a huge disappointment. I barely finished the game as a result.
50:20 - Having carefully analyzed this footage, I believe the martial art that's being utilized here is called "Garry's Mod Ragdoll with Thrusters Attached to Their Limbs" martial art. You don't see that too often outside of Mayan culture.
And now I'm imagining that scene with the Gmod Ragdoll sound effects going over it, and I somehow take it even LESS seriously. Thank you so much for this Christmas gift!
someone needs to do a sound edit of that with this
The ancient Mayans were famous for their gaming rigs.
That’s Steven Seagal’s chosen discipline.
Bwahahahahaha
The lesson here is that if Ross was possessed into killing an accountant no one would ever know
Unless he stumbles onto the eidetic cop
It may have even happened already
@@Barquevious_Jackson the mould is controlling him, the ross we know isn't there any more
He would've gotten away with to if it wasn't for that uninteractable bathroom stall
@@merrittanimation7721 I did wonder why Ross was sympathizing with the man who stabbed a guy from the very start.
Man, this game is really amazing. You can see the exact FRAME where the developers just gave up completely.
That transition from slow, psychological horror to wire-kung fu was as jarring as if half-way through Schindlers List we hear the classic Superman theme as the Man of Steel slowly descends into the concentration camp and fist-fights Amon Göth who turns out to be General Zod in disguise.
That’s a better movie…
But the fight is interrupted when The Turing Machine gains sentience and sends foo fighters (from the future) to steal the crystal skull buried underneath Oscar Schindler's childhood home.
@@dorpth someone get me a kilo of Colombian marching powder and a Hollywood producer I think we have a sequel/tie in now
@@RomanvonUngernSternbergnrmfvus ahh see you like 80's style writing a forgotten art
this actually interests me
"You're adding too many skittles to your vegetables" is my new favorite Ross quote
"Nietzsche didn't know Kung-fu."
Lol
just eat fruit instead of fruit flavored candy
*How did Ross knows about my diet?!?!?*
Mhmmm a nice baked pasta dish with M&M's.
I love the David Cage rants in this episode. This man played 1 and like 1/10th of a Quantic Dream game and that was more than enough for Ross to know that David Cage is not of this world and does NOT come in peace.
Whatever species David Cage belongst to, their blood is made up of pure undiluted LSD.
David Cage has the taste, restraint and creativity of a 14 years old, who just discovered Bullet for my Valentine.
@@TheHalogen131 heh, this kinda describes a lovely friend I had when I was in high school:3
This has to be his weirdest game (AFAIK, I did not played Beyond: Two Souls), and that speaks volume considering he made Omicron and Detroit.
@@lokalnyork Beyond isn't weird. It's basically misery porn with a protagonist who is so beaten by life, that she curves around to being a Mary Sue again. But hey, it has realistic tear animations, and by God did they make use of this feature.
"Beware. all your actions will have consequences for the story" *ending is exclusively decided by a choice made literally at the very end"
You don't even choose those endings either. You only get the orange or purple clan endings if you fail to defeat them, so they're more like extended "Game Overs" than actual endings.
@@fallenlight8460 I feel with this kind of game, you need to TRY to fail
So like Life is Strange
Is it really a choice when 2 of the endings is just you failing to play simon says, and the other endings is succeeding at simon says?
That describes like 90% of all "choice-heavy" games though
The silliest unmentioned element of the story is that The Oracle just had to choose a completely random person to murder another completely random person, both among billions of people in the whole wide world, and he picks to possess exactly the one guy who got dunked in chroma as a kid and was a dormant jedi master.
What's also stupid is that these killings are apparently always done in the same area, judging by how the police have files of previous killings.
Why couldn't the Oracle just pick two yokels in a third world country that is corrupt af, teeming with drug cartels and/or war-torn? Life can be pretty cheap there.
Maybe it made him more susceptible
From what I remember, The oracle have done the sacrifice ritual with a stranger proxy every 5 years or so. For hundreds of years.
And only at that one time with Lucas, he chose somebody with chroma in him by accident.
That makes the scenario a lot less implausible.
I played this game years ago so not sure I'm 100% correct here.
What are the odds.. seriously
Feels like a JJ Abrams plot hole moment..just even more brain dead
"Nietzsche didn't know kung fu! You're adding to many skittles to your vegetables, fahrenheit!"
This is a real sentence that, somehow, makes sense, all because of the wonder of David Cage and our boy Ross. God bless
gobbless bro'ther
You're adding too many Skittles to your vegetables is pretty much a perfect description of Cage's ideas.
"I can almost respect that, except it's stupid"
That's a comment for the ages. You're a treasure, Ross.
Ross: "I don't really like seeing violence aginst women."
Also Ross: "Roundhouse, boom! Roundhouse, boom! Roundhouse!"
I wouldn't count a training match as true violence. In that scene the man isn't trying to hurt the woman; they're both trying to improve each other's unarmed combat skills through practice.
@@jamestown8398 Yeah but cant deny it looks ridiculous.
Like, you would see this kind of stuff in Street Fighter or something, this is not "casual sparring"
he definitely picked the wrong developer for that lmfao. I swear cage invents scenarios just to squeeze violence against women into his games
@@Romanticoutlaw Based?
@@RabbiHerschel no,
I can’t believe Ross got me David Cage for Christmas. What a horrible gift I couldn’t be more happy with.
As someone who:
•Sleeps in my boxers in 20f weather with the window open and one blanket
•Currently lives in new york
And
•Feels Neutral when I'm at 100%
This game is pretty on the mark.
Can you use Chroma, though?
I wanna live your life
@@zangl2955 "I wanna live your life" It's not worth living in New York, tho.
Which one of those statements appeals to you?! 😧
"Feels Neutral when I'm at 100%"
Mood
David Cage is a expert in his craft, which is setting up amazing stories and themes and then trashing them horrifically in jaw dropping ways.
It's absolutely intentional. I'm convinced David Cages entire career is an Andy Kaufman bit.
You're tearing me apart Cage'a!
Can't say I agree that the set ups are amazing. The protagonist losing his son in Heavy Rain is one of the dumbest starts to a game I've ever seen and its just a convoluted detective story with no subtlety.
David cage, you've done it again
He assembles insanely talented technical teams and uses them to create the worst fucking story imaginable.
*watches a single man do superhuman/supernatural abilities to knock out multiple cops and outrun a helicopter*
"Next time, we'll get him"
Bruh, like no shock about it whatsoever
didn't you see the ":O" faces they made throughout the scene? that's all the shock they need to have.
She did raise her eyebrows though!
''What happened was a miracle and i want you to f**** aknowledge it.''
So one of the big reasons why this game seems to start out well, but then go off the rails, is that at one point in development Cage decided he wanted the game to be one part of a seven part game series. Like, even getting a sequel isn't guaranteed and he wanted SIX of them. When told he couldn't get his way, he compressed (apparently) six games worth of material into the last half of the game.
Sounds about right.
Lmao David Cage wanted six games??
This reminds me of how Yu Suzuki wants the Shenmue series to be 11 chapters spread across 4 or 5 games.
No way, THAT was the reason for all nonsense?
He really is needed to be kept on a leash, shame it only happened with Detroit: BH
holy shit someone really needs to leash him
The bit where the child jumped into the lake, you can try to save him if you have enough sanity. If you succeed, the cop from the diner sees you. He then refuses to recognize Lucas when given his picture. Though the cops still get to you. I forget how. Honestly, I forgot most of what happened in this game after park scene.
I'm pretty sure the cop would always identify Lucas when given the picture but IIRC he'll mention Lucas saving the kid at the park to Carla if you chose to do that.
Nice detail. Thanks for sharing.
He doesn't report you immediately, but he does tell Carla eventually during the evidence linking scene.
He's one of the two "freebies", along with the initials inside The Tempest, allowing you to complete that scene even if you completely botch the investigation/hide all the evidence.
"you can try to save him if you have enough sanity."
I'm pretty sure it's the opposite. You save him to get some sanity. And you can walk away instead at the cost of mental health.
I've been clinically depressed for the best part of 11 years, and let me tell you the 100% being Neutral is really damn accurate, and having even the smallest of things have a significantly negative affect on you is accurate too.
I should point out that Lucas, Tyler, AND Carla are all on the same system. As for the depression, I've had major depression in the past and was in a complete state of anhedonia (I developed a patch of grey hair during that time too despite being 19-20). The only thing that ended up working on me was bupropion for what it's worth.
@@Accursed_Farms Bupropion has been the only pharmaceutical that’s really worked for my depression as well and it’s great that it helps treat ADHD too. I’m not making a useful comment and it’s a common illness but I find it cool one of my favorite creators is willing to share some personal info like that.
To the OP, I also feel the same way about depression. It’s like your brain is hyper-tuned to find and ruminate on all the negatives. The constant low makes the neutral days feel so weird and noteworthy when it should just be normal.
@@Accursed_Farms Before 24.... Airport (1970) used the splinted screen effect Ross ..... The classic telephone call thingy.....
@@Accursed_Farms Ah now THAT is just bad game design. Shame, I was hoping the game had got that right. And sorry my comment came across as far more passive aggressive than I intended. Never had Burpropion as I don't think the British NHS uses it, but for me the only medication that worked was a high dose of Duloxetine.
@@shogun2215 The NHS does NOT use it. Not for depression anyway which is moronic as Duloxetine is both much, much more expensive, and has much, much worse side effects. The only thing they'll use it for is smoking cessation. Again, moronic, as it was developed as an anti-depressant, and its one of the very few drugs effective for treatment resistant cases.
57:05 No no, Ross. What's worse is that they share a kiss and BOTH OF THEM keep their eyes open. It has the same energy as making a Barbie and Ken doll kiss.
"I can't tell if the director knows he created a creepy flesh automaton or is just oblivious to the concept of Uncanny Valley."
As someone who played through this entire game, part of Heavy Rain, and watched LPs of all of his games (including the 2 previously mentioned games, Omikron, Beyond 2 Souls, and Detroit Become Human), I can comfortably say the answer to this statement is more than likely "Both."
David Cage is somehow simultaneously both the embodiment and antithesis of the infamous quote from Garth Merenghi's Darkplace "I know writers who use subtext and they are all cowards."
David Cage has managed to turn the Uncanny Valley into a career.
He truly earned that Half & Half award
omikron alone is enough to warrant that opinion. Absolute headfuck
David Cage is a flesh automaton. That's why the only convincing characters he could write were robots.
How does that work? Does David Cage use subtext or not?
The "your decisions are meaningless" part that stood out to me most when I was first playing, is there was a bit where you could choose if Tyler left the city with his girlfriend or he stayed behind to keep helping the investigation. First time I played I chose to make him leave, then I decided to replay it cause I wanted him to stay in the game. If he stays, you never see him for the rest of the game anyway.
Yes but you knew in your heart that he was still out there, doing his best, and that should have inspired you to do the same. That was the true meaning of that choice. Cage was testing you, testing all of us, to see if we could understand that the outcome of our choices plays out in more than just the video game aspect of the video game. It plays out in our hearts and our minds.
David Cage truly made the most video game ever. And we should all be lucky to have been thankful to play it. Or the other way around, I dunno, you choose, doesn't matter anyway.
I do think he actually dies if you don't have him leave. Either way he gets to get off of david cage's wild ride.
@@vetreas366 it certainly is one of the video games of all time
This is one of my biggest issues with "branching narratives" - most times it will be a sham because, just using simple exponential math, if the plot branches into two options and every single one had a unique result, after three times you're now at 8 different story branches, and
At some point, one of your branching paths (if not both) are going to either be dead ends or result in the outcome as a different decision branch path would lead you to.
Of course, if you have some really good writers who can properly tackle the narrative, and have the time to make sure all your plot points are fleshed out ... but I think it only really works if you keep each decision branches kind of self-contained (like in a quest).
i find this super baffling in heavy rain, for lack of spoilers: the big twist. you cant have the player perform all sorts of detailled and banale tasks for immersion or whatever and then come around and say: oh btw these really big things also happened, but offscreen. haha we had you play only the unimportant parts, sucker. given the reviews the game got most people seem to like it and think thats great storytelling, but it just doesnt work for me. doesnt feel like some smart maneuver, more like a cheap trick.
I almost died from food poisoning at my inlaws. I held on to toilet knowing if i made it through I would get this s tier game dungeon on a game I still plan to play. Thanks man.
You are a true trooper. I award the highest reward of +100 points. From now on, you may use "+100" to refer to yourself. Or don't. They are your points.
@@davysmith1934 a pooper trooper
Trust me, my man. Once you play this, or any other Cage game:
You'll wish for that moment where you were still shitting your guts out, but were still innocent.
I feel like somebody holding onto a toilet suffering from expulsions while thinking of old video games, is exactly the audience Ross makes these videos for.
I love that whenever a character does something crazy like stab someone else in a game, Ross always goes to the practical angle of how to escape, what to do next - he's immediately in the guy's corner, no matter what he just did.
"The story of going from a boring to dimension X. That's a story I can relate to"
Further proof that Ross is secretly Gordon Freeman
I think Ross is the copy of Gordon that got made in the teleportation to Xen and dumped off in a forest. He settled down, made videos, and got married
secretly?
You know, the scenario he described is basically the plot of freeman's mind.
He always has been.
Damn it, I didn't cap my comment section at 30 fps and now comments are skipping words.
Imagine dying, going to the afterlife and you STILL have to use a wheelchair
I would be pissed at god honestely
The “detective partner beats the absolute tar out of his partner kickboxing” made me laugh so hard I almost choked, entered overwrought, and threw myself out a window. What a ride.
That's what they call "Ryona" right there.
@@R3GARnator I hate that I know what you're saying and I hope this knowledge dies with me.
@@R3GARnator I would gladly read a Fahrenheit Carla ryona doujin. As long as it doesn't devolve into pure guro, since that's a bit too much for my taste.
@@R3GARnator Bruh thats just anime misogyny porn. dont go spreading your fetishes around just because the dude laughed at a david cage game.
@@roadent217 If it's written by Cage then it WILL be, with a new short dark haired female character every chapter!
Man, when Ross got to the attack of the furniture sequence, all I could hear was Woolie yelling, "GET READY!!" and just being a hype man the entire sequence.
Good. It wasn't just me, then. Woolie's joy at that sequence is so infectious that I can't dislike how stupid it is. I recently rewatched the sadness trilogy. Masterpieces.
They should rerelease that sequence as a Beat Saber clone
"THE PHONE!"
"Yo! I got these chairs at IKEA, now I gotta dodge them."
"Not Berserk Volume 1! Not Berserk Volume 2! Not Berserk Volume 3!"
"I threw everything you had at you..."
Right? Woolie screaming "LETS GOOOOOOOO" plays in my head when that sequence starts.
"THE GROUND YO!"
"And I have to wonder if this explanation is based on testimony from an ACTUAL homeless person" had me in tears for several moment, that was pure comedy gold
38:55 Ross perfectly conveys just how quickly the plot falls apart at this point
I mean what the hell.
It's like the writer took Terrible Writing Advice videos seriously. "If you see any audience members flying past, then don't worry. That's just the mood whiplash launching them out of the story"
@@No0dz Nah, seems more like budget forced a mad rush of something that was meant to be more gradual.
It's a shame he skipped the part where the game awkwardly rebounds to a scene right after where the cops are getting chewed out by the chief of police. As if Lucas hatched a cunning plan to narrowly escape capture, and it was Karla and Tyler's fault for not adequately preparing for the possibility that their murder suspect would manage to kung-fu kick a police helicopter out of the sky.
@@ReturnOfHeresy No it is becase Cage is shit at storytelling. You don't get to claim budget problems or that the producers are at fault when it is the same exact escalating nonsensical storyline that is a problem in every game Cage ever made. The fact is that Cage is just really, really shit at telling a coherent narrative.
I feel like a bunch of developers came together with a great idea for a realistic crime/detective cat and mouse game.
Then they met up at a studio without ever realizing the water was contaminated and there was an obelisk in the basement.
This is a David Cage game. So maybe the rest of the team was unaware. But he sure wasn't. He put the obelisk there, and laced the water himself. He's that kind of guy.
I’m definitely left with the theory that the good parts of this game *were not* written by Cage.
Also Ross came to the same conclusion that the Super Best Friends did, in that David Cage needs extra writers to keep his ideas in check because otherwise you end up with stupid kung fu in the air.
Or maybe he just needs to stop writing because he is terrible at it. The first part of the story is very basic. The second part totally nonsensical and shit. The third part is just total garbage.
@@GeorgeMonet While basic it at least worked with how engaging the scenes were directed and the bit of tension it raised. That all went out the window with bizness bug wanting the player to work late
He's also probably responsible for Ellen Page being driven to troondom.
@@RabbiHerschel Oh, come off it.
like someone else said before, i believe it's because this time it was intended to be an episodic series, but atari made them rush the game compressing the whole story into one game, and it resulted in the disaster you see now
Ah Fahrenheit. The only game where the phrase "cyborg zombie sex" is not only real but a critical plot element.
And not a joke.
That scene came from out of nowhere. There was not a single thing pointing to any kind of romance between those two
Cyborg?
@@carcrashjayson Lucas, at this point in the game, is implanted with a chip from the AI to make his body move. Or so David Cage has written.
It's implied he's part machine, hence cyborg.
@@Mindofklink Ah, missed that detail
37:26 Ross accidentally describing how Shadow the Hedgehog's haphazard plot/levels are structured was very funny to wake up to.
Oh dude thanks for reminding me, had the same thought when he was talking about that. Actually the only game I can think of that has a branching storyline like that.
@@RupertAndCheese I can actually think of a couple other examples, but most of them are arcade driving games where the "branching" just amounts to you picking left or right at the end of the stage (which takes you to different backgrounds or whatever). The only other story-focused game I can think of that did something like that was... Neverending Nightmare? I think that's what it was called?
Shadow the Hedgehog is the Ultimate Choice-based Story Game!
Lmao I knew that I've seen that before
Funnily enough, there's a Modded version of the game that really fixes a lot of its problems, and makes it infinitely more playable. Worth a revisit if you can find the Mod.
As a "martial arts person" the style they use in the air fight... is slap boxing.
Slap-fu - where the fights look dumb and inertia doesn't matter.
So...Steven Seagal?
I played this fever dream of a game years ago and I remember that when the "psychic wheelchair lady ghost" turned into this "AI construct or something" I thought that my specific path of choices at some point broke the game and I ended up in between two or more conflicting storylines. My theory is that initially David Cage attempted to make an interactive story where your choices not only affect the outcome, but the tone of the game, the gameplay itself and even the backstory: Do you want this to be a procedural crime drama, a fully fledged supernatural horror/triller or a kung-fu "chosen one" Matrix knock off?. None of that mattered because they ran out of time and money, so they just threw everything togheter for you to experience in a linear way and baffle as its inner logic gradually collapse. It's like playing Silent Hill and stumbling across the dog ending, but then the game keeps going and expects you to take it seriously.
you've made me mourn for what this game could have been
“Silent Hill but it’s the dog ending and keeps going” is the best description for this game that I’ve seen so far.
The overall lore was meant to be more gradual (apparently it was originally episodic) but publisher/budget meant that episode 1 needed to be everything, so they dump it all on you in a mad rush at the end.
nah he wanted to make a cheep matrix knockoff it copies every theme and setting from the first matrix but does it poorly
@@playoffl36ron8 It does have similar themes. Though I find the Indigo Prophecy lore to have more existential horror.
In The Matrix earth is important (the true reality); individual humans are like livestock with some value; and the central conflict is between humans and their oppressors. In Indigo prophecy earth is a backwater farm; humans are merely fertile dirt on that farm; and the central conflict is between interdimensional ubermensch farmers, interdimensional uber-machine thieves, and interdimensional eco-terrorists.
David Cage is indeed oblivious to the Uncanny Valley. He's also oblivious to human decency, human working conditions, and good writing. Thank you for this wonderfully cursed Christmas gift, Ross!
But he knows Elliot Page!
Daily reminder that mister Cage has fully rendered nude model of Ellen Page somewhere on his hard drives
Detroit Become Human is great at the buddy cop parts, but I heard the actors took over at some parts for delivery and lines. Every other part kinda stunk... it's also probably not the best "social justice" message to equate women and minorities to washing machines and bots literally made for labor.
So yeah david cage is pretty oblivious to humanity as a whole.
@@moistjohn Good point. At least washing machines do their jobs well lol
@@maskettaman1488now that’s edgy as fuck
"Fiddle with everything, learn what randomly depresses you or not, and then do it again." Well if that ain't life.
I remember while playing this game I was almost softlocked because once your character's mental health becomes too low, it immediately triggers a failure state. It was a very funny scene for it to happen on too, Carla was having her fortune read which is necessary to progress, but she receives a bad omen and becomes so worried that she immediately turns in her badge and gun and quits the investigation.
Oh yeah, I'm sure New York police detectives would be scared out of an investigation and fear for their life over a tarot card reading.
As much as I hate to defend the game, the idea behind that seems to be that her heads already in tatters and she's on the verge of cracking anyway, that incident was the last straw.
It still feels weird because there's no gameplay difference between having full mentality and having near-empty mentality.
Realistically they'd shoot the tarot cards 12 times in the back and claim that they feared for their life.
Nice name. Your channel is... interesting.
Shit wasn't even a proper Tarot reading. Like, sure, you should be at least a bit concerned when you pull Death, but that's because it signifies a major change in circumstance rather than actual literal death. The Tower would've been a more concerning card for a cop to get. But, like the Maya beliefs and (somehow, despite it being rather common in France) the Catholic beliefs, Cage and his writers don't actually *know* anything about all these plot elements they throw at the woodchipper.
You have no idea how happy it makes me that the awards are back for this episode.
This game’s plot is really similar to Onision’s 3rd book, which is the one where his self insert gets superpowers and battles god. It even has the same thing where it switches from kinda normal to completely off the rails halfway through. Which tells me that, based solely on their work, David Cage has a similar writing ability to Onision.
Well if everything a writer writes is always inconsistent and full of illogical nonsense, something they only wrote because they wanted to write it and not because it was necessary for them to write it then they are objectively a bad writer. So yes, David Cage is a bad writer.
@@GeorgeMonet But what if they wanted to write it out of inspiration? Lord of the Rings was born out of Tolkien's trauma with World War 1
@@Trynt33 sorry, the inspiration that Onision and David Cage have of becoming superheroes?
@@richroberts7512 That's an easy one, their own madness
I dont know if thats an insult to Onision or David Cage...
“I never had to deal with this many bugs… for that job anyway” my favourite Ross “bit” are his allusions to wild previous jobs
Lucas's flashbacks are weird because they seem to be set in the late 1940-1950s, but he's like in his thirties in a fairly contemporary 2000s setting.
WW2/Korean war soldier patrolling Area 51
"Yes David... Tell me you know nothing about military history without telling me you know nothing about military history"
It's a frenchman's vague understanding of pop culture americana. It's some restricted military zone, like Area 51, so his mind just goes to the 50's.
Ross inadvertently proving that Shadow the Hedgehog is a true choice based adventure game.
Except you unlock a true ending that's the canon ending when you get them all.
Ross mentioned games having a warning about not trying to be fun at the start at 27:22. Pathologic 2 actually has a disclaimer at the start saying that although you can lower the difficulty, it was meant to be played on the hardest option, and that it's intentionally meant to be tedious at times. And it's a great game, partly because of those tedious parts.
Pathologic 2 was legit my favorite gaming experience of the past 10 years.
The 'choices leading to the same plot points' problem is called the Lemon Model. As in, starts narrow, bulges out, ends narrow.
That makes sense, although I don't know how tortured a mind had to be to come up with this particular comparison.
Oh nice,it further works because it often leaves a sour taste in your mouth
this is the kind of thing I'm rooting for deep learning + human creativity to solve. For all the downsides of the automation of imagination, getting an actual full featured cyoa game that isn't a lemon model would be amazing.
@@mikedawson7695 I feel bitter after playing a telltale game so it's true
The biggest thing I could never get over was when when the insylum captives get realease and the patients are treated like literal Jurassic Park-esque monsters. "Oh no, I hear one coming!" is a quote I will always remeber.
At least the inmates in Phantasmagoria 2 knew how to disco dance
That whole sequence would have been so much better if failing it just resulted in one of the imates touching your shoulder and going "Excuse me mamm, are you lost? In case of emergency we're supposed to go to the cafeteia and await assistance." And then you just wait with them while the power gets turned back on.
@@inurokuwarz honestlyyyy. It would have been remarkable if the tension in the segment was actually caused by the detective being paranoid and falsely assuming the worst. But that would have required the kind of foresight of a disco elysium developer rather than david "how many s*xual assaults and racist scenes can I squeeze into my games" cage
@@Romanticoutlaw What's wrong with racist scenes?
"Indigo Prophecy will do for the elderly what Jaws did for sharks!"
If Ross is going to cover the last 15 years of Cage Craziness, I'm all for it.
I desperately hope that he does.
SHAWN!
"JASON!"
If he does that, We can all kiss goodbye to his sanity.
Speaking of the choice based Adventure structure, it sounds like Shadow the Hedgehog would be Ross's ideal story-based adventure game lol.
except choices super don't matter there because your actions in one level only effect which level you go to next, and have no logical connection to why and no story effects...
hell, the closest any of the levels ever get to being related is that one magical ruins level where the dark mission is to activate the evil magic, and a later level where those same ruins are now flying, but in oder to have both of those in the same playthrough you need to do the hero mission in the level after the first one and it's just stupid...
also the level where you blow up the president doesn't kill the president.... what a weird sentence that is...
I would say that Ross would have a riot of a time with that game, but he was shockingly chill with Sonic Heroes where I was expecting him to have much more issue with the repetitive design of the game, the butter physics controls, homing attack not working, the voice acting, and Team Chaotix. But it also sounds like he never played much of the other 3D Sonic games of the era including either of the Adventure games.
@@RipOffProductionsLLC While the execution specifically in Shadow the Hedgehog was awful, the actual framework is there. You choose your path in the level, and this chooses where you'll go next. Certain stage paths get locked out by the halfway point unless you're dead center on the map. Each path has its own bits of lore attached.
But a much better example of how to do this is Star Fox 64. No convoluted moral choice system, no overt "do this so you can take this pathway," it's all about learning the secrets of a stage in order to map your own route through the game. The only "bad" part is that there are only two endings, but you get to experience a different story depending on what paths you choose, and/or which secrets you succeed or fail at completing.
@@silverlight6074I remember picking up a game that used a similar level branch structure called Stories: the Path of Destinies. Wouldn’t recommend-Shadow is guilty pleasure fun at least, Stories was just boring-but it did improve upon the structure on paper. Almost purely on paper, but still.
First, you got a choice of levels to play for each step of the journey, but what those choices were and why was based on what you’d accomplished in the previous level, or even what you didn’t. For example, one of your first choices is to go get the rig for this super weapon before the evil toad army can find it; if you DON’T pick that, the roads get the rig. You can still go for the core on your next mission, but you can no longer complete the weapon yourself. After stage two, routes start getting locked down, but that’s still better than most “choice based games”: instead of hinging the endings on a single choice at the very end, it’s your choices at the start of a run that have the most impact.
Second is that it actually did Shadow’s true ending deal in a much more interesting manner. The 30+ normal endings fall into four categories, four truths as the game calls them. Which sounds fake profound, but the “truths” are simply important facts about the situation (for example, that the super weapon I mentioned is actually extremely dangerous and can kill the user). Once you’ve learned all four, you can finally defeat the toad army by using that knowledge to your advantage.
Again though, this is all good purely on paper. In practice, Stories is far more repetitive than Shadow ever was. Shadow at least had a unique stage for each point on its flowchart; Stories has, like, 10, and every one beyond the set of first stages…well, you’ll be seeing them a lot. Oh, and you thought you’d be free of Westopolis syndrome because you get a choice of first levels? Nope, the final level is the exact same regardless of route. The gameplay is extremely repetitive too: in a vacuum it’s fine, low grade isometric hack and slash, but it’s not fine for several cycles.
damn
The “flight” in Wuxia movies (fantasy kung fu films) like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is rooted in Chinese mythology and folklore. It’s a convention of the genre, just as wizards are a convention of western high fantasy and superpowers are a convention of superhero films. There’s a RUclips video that talks about it called “Why People Fly in Kung Fu Movies: The Evolution of Wuxia.”
A friend sent me something recently about an early Jewish mythological story about Judas Iscariot discovering the true name of God and using it to engage in a flying martial arts match with Jesus. Judas beats Jesus and hangs him because the Jews think that Jesus was the most evil man to ever live. Fun fact.
@@RabbiHerschel not far off lol, christians believe he's the same person as God in addition to being his son so since God destroyed the entire world that would make Jesus pretty evil.
@@sorrenblitz805 repent of your blasphemy.
@@RabbiHerschel Interactions between completely conceptually irreconcilable religions are the funniest thing to me.
Jewish or Islamic authorities claiming "We believe Jesus was a prophet, but not the messiah" and statements like that. Blaspheming their own religion for the sake of peace and a facade for coexistence, when really they either don't care or genuinely think the other is a wrongful dumbass. Not to be all r/atheism, but man, no religion stands up in any relation to any other religion, because proof for both is zilch and everyone just makes up their own world view anyways, reducing all religious groups larger than a family into complete irrelevance, hidden under a umbrella of vagueness, they call "Interpretation".
@Reac2 So sad to see such a lack of faith in the divine. I pray that one day your eyes will be opened and you will be touched by the Flying Spaghetti Monster's noodly appendage.
"Afterlife wheelchair" is perhaps the funniest combination of words I've ever heard (and a pretty good band name). Imagine being disabled and thinking you wont be bound to a wheelchair once you die, but nope.
Without a physical body you can be whatever you want. So psychic ai grandma decided to keep on rolling
As a writer, there is something I've discovered that I like to call the, "Wouldn't it be cool urge." It is the urge to have to write something into your story just because you think it would be cool. The problem is doing something because you think it would be cool sometimes stomps all over tone, development and basic logic. You have to take a good look at what you are writing and sometimes excise the cool things in service of the story making sense. David Cage seems to be 100% fuelled by the "Wouldn't it be cool urge."
I discovered and called it the same! I think modern Star Trek and Star Wars are suffering from it massively.
He's 100% fueled by the "wouldn't it be cool urge" but the worst part is, there's no one to stop him or say "no!" to him since he's also the big boss at Quantic Dream.
Wouldn't it be cool if the detective in Heavy Rain had some kind of cybernetic augmented reality interface that requires drugs to use without blowing his brain up but depends on them too much and is blowing his brain up anyway, in a setting without any other sci-fi bullshit?
@@RupertAndCheese Wouldn't it be cool if I made (the artist formerly known as) Ellen Page do a shower scene in my game and model her nude only for myself?
see also, every madison scene in heavy rain that isn't centered around ethan. There was zero reasonable excuse for her scenes to be the way they are, even setting aside the skeeviness of them. The murder surgeon in particular. Just why.
I think we're entering an age of Game Dungeons. We no longer get the cutesy high concept retro/pixel computer games that we had before, now we get the high concept serious and gritty adventure games which really looks like Deus Ex or System Shock.
Skittles on vegetables analogy is extremely on point. Easily applied to almost every Cage game.
remember how one of the first things you do in Omikron is fuck a dude's wife with his own body? that's some next-level cuckoldry, and it's not even plot reverent.
I never thought I'd see Ross reviewing a David Cage game, I can already tell this is gonna be hilarious...
And also very weird.
Takes me back to when Matt and Pat and Woolie used to make fun of Cage and his games all the time
@@Chud_Bud_Supreme Matt and Pat? Now those are the names I haven't heard in a long, loooong time...
The one thing I was hoping Ross would do is touch on the ingame news article you can access on the detective's computer where director JACKSON PETERS is lauding the directorial vision of the new movie adaptation of David Cage's world-renowned screenplay, Omikron.
It's the most aggressive and out of nowhere bit of autofellatio I think I've ever seen.
@@MediaMunkee Which is made all the worse by Omikron being a crime against good story telling... and game design... and just in general.
@@MediaMunkee "It's the most aggressive and out of nowhere bit of autofellatio I think I've ever seen." worse than sex scene, in front of a camera, from TloU2 with autoinsert of dunkmann? On a console that's heavily censoring NSFW content while giving his game free pass?
Man this plot is like a normal night that slowly descends into an LSD-raddled schizophrenic meltdown party.
I have vivid memories of watching Jesse Cox play this game like 10 years ago and man I forgot about how quick the game did a 180
If the Super _(No Longer)_ Best Friends taught me anything, it's that nothing good can possibly come from David Cage's games, especially his earliest work. All roads lead to Omikron, Ross- _You are playing a _*_Dangerous_*_ game!_
*gives you Gooby Sandvich*
WELCOME IN OMIKRON WHEN?
its already been like 5 years, rip
Can't wait for Ross to hear the masterpiece that is the Omikron training room theme.
Oh man, the omikron lets play was a trip...Most lets plays build towards just one big, aggravating moment, like a puzzle that makes no godadmn sense or a boss that is impossibly tuned. The omikron play through had _so many_ of those moments, there were like three or four big, friendship destroying frustration moments that made you think the lets play was over.
It took Ross such a long time to acknowledge what a crazy turn the story took, I doubted he was going to do it at all. He got me! :D
Don't look up anything else about David Cage, Ross. Preserve your sanity. Let the weird Matrix fighting in this game be all you know about him.
It honestly made me ignore the crazy shit until I was like "Wait did he just say he jumped 20 feet in the air!?" and I look back to the video enthralled.
David Cage is something else man.
No, his creepiness needs to be made more aware of not enabled from ignoring it.
you know you want the Omikron Game Dungeon
@@dingleberryliespewer3177 "So, I need to kill myself drinking poison, so thing guy I can't Reincarnate into touches my body, thus by-passing his immunity to the reincarnation spell... so I can then ride his wooly-rhino-bull thing... so I can use it to move this rock... and then go on foot... WHY?
I think the Nomad Soul is an asshole... then again he did sleep with a dude's wife while he was in the dude's body, so I suppose that's not out of character..."
@@dingleberryliespewer3177 I respect Ross too much to want him to suffer.
At least in Heavy Rain, you can mess up so badly that Ethan is jailed about half-way through the game, or just wander off from the killer's trials without playing his game.
The killer is very irked at the end of the game that the FBI agent shows up rather than Ethan
The second I saw your diagram of an actual choice based adventure game shadow the hedgehog popped into my head as that’s exactly how it’s story is
You just gave me mental tremors from remembering that game.
Same. It's identical, somehow. It just combines regular "choices matter" narrative gameplay into some of its mission objectives, which are ludicrously hard compared to others and almost force you down certain paths through likely failure.
Sadly that game isn't really respected for that ambition. Heck, I can't even respect it because my copy is bugged and I can't even see every path because certain objectives simply don't get triggered or important enemies or npcs get stuck in walls. Still, the game is massive and lived up to Sonic's hype at the time.
i laughed so hard at the “one last trick up his sleeve” moment. gold.
I could never have guessed THAT was where the plot would go
"It's like this game is trying to start an argument between the hemispheres of my brain" is such an astute observation that I can't get over.
As somebody who likes watching wire-fu combat from time to time, I think the thing about it is that people flying around punching each other kind of occupies the same headspace as wizards throwing fireballs at each other. That's just how the magic works in that storytelling tradition, and you either like it or don't. As to whether or not the scene is GOOD, though, I don't think so.
It works in the right context when a precedent is set for that. No one cares when it's in The Matrix or an anime or a WuXia film, but when it comes out of nowhere in a story that seems to take place in a normal and gritty world and suddenly those tropes get shoved in, it causes cognitive dissonance.
This is why Cage rubs people the wrong way. It takes a lot of skill to get people really invested in something kind of ridiculous. Cage doesn't have that kind of self awareness, it's just arbitrary crazy shit.
what always bothers me about wuxia style movies is when people jump around, punching and attacking one another, and no one gets wounded or properly pummeled.
@@boarfaceswinejaw4516 There's definitely a sliding scale with these things. The Jet Li movie from the series where he plays Wong Feihung generally contains some borderline mario jump physics, but the ringed broadsword fight is also really satisfying and brutal. Skilled storytellers will generally be able to communicate power, skill, damage, and impact no matter what the genre is, but there's a point in any movie genre where people have a grasp of how to do the effects but not really how to use them. Which, among other factors, is how you get some of the really dumb-looking stuff that happens in marvel movies.
@@guyrandom8235
its legitimately difficult to watch a lot of "cleaner" martial arts movies nowadays after having seen stuff like undisputed and Raid.
@@boarfaceswinejaw4516 Different strokes, I suppose. I get pretty excited by a lot of different styles of stage combat storytelling, and kind of have different moods for all of them. There's a time and place for super clean and graceful stuff, gritty and gorey, or something in the middle. Hell, there's even a lot of fun still to be had in pro wrestling imo.
The multi-camera trick is probably inspired by Brian de Palma's films. I don't know if he was the first to do it (multiple exposure techniques date back to the silent era) but this specific style of dividing the shots with black bars was pretty much popularized by him. De Palma was also known for making crime thrillers (some of them with supernatural elements e.g. Carrie) so the influence is even more likely in this case
I've never seen a game change its tone so quickly, this is hilarious. It went from "Detroit becomes human with a slight hint of paranormal" to "Yakuza fighting simulator on crack" what the actual fuck
Haven't watched the video but I know in my heart that Ross is facing a formidable foe. Ross has a dungeon, David has a cage.
Cripes, I remember this game. Especially the part where you can be so bad at climbing a drainpipe that you turn yourself in to the police, and the way the story goes completely off the rails in the second half.
Mass Effect is halarious with how it tries to make you stick to the script. There's a guy on youtube named Many A True Nerd who did a run though all 3 games where he had the least amount of characters possible. By ME3 it reads like a GM who realizes his entire campain has gone off the rails and is desperatly trying get to end cause he's too proud to just kill it.
A railroad is a railroad, even if the players can pick from multiple tracks.
MATN is pretty fun
I remember a few years ago he did a Fallout 3 run with the gimmick of "kill as many plot-important characters as possible without breaking the game"
@@EvilDoresh A railroad is a railroad until an industralist comes to town, then we've got more tracks!
@@TheSmegPod Ah, yes. The (in)famous true kill everything possible run.
Mass Effect's approach to choice-based gameplay was really more of a right choice/wrong choice one - somewhat like an adventure puzzler within a cover-shooter RPG.
Awww Yeah! David Cage time! Indigo Prophecy is one of those games that's really fun to make other people play so you can watch as their understanding of reality fall apart.
he should've played it on a console. at least the ddr sections make a little more sense. not that the game is better then.
Could also go back and play the game that can truly end friendships. Omikron
@@TheFranssiBrother damn you mean to tell me they named the virus after a whole ass game cause it was THAT bad XD
Aww yeah! David Cage time! I've never played a David Cage before, so I am going to give this everything I've got!
@@Doctor-Infinite i think its better than this. A LOT better.
It has more problems though but those stem mostly from it being better as a game, strangely enough, so finishing it is less likely than this. The world is more fantstical too in it but makes more sense.
I'm becoming more and more convinced that David Cage is the Neil Breen of the video game world.
Nooo c'mon that's unfair to Cage. Breen is insane. I'd label Cage a "we have Kojima at home" kinda director. Honestly even that is not the best comparison.
How dare you compare Cage to the Superior Breeing.
@@homeygfunkoffacherryfruitl4971 He is a creature of true Breenius.
@@homeygfunkoffacherryfruitl4971 I can't believe he compared Cage to Breen. I cannot believe he compared Cage to Breen. How could he do this? How could he compare Cage to Breen?
@@noahfessenden6478 "You...
*killed him"*
Seriously. This is probably my new favorite game dungeon episode. I love the philosophical discussions about the game and how it's waging a civil war on you mentally.
That jump from a moody crime drama story to a modern kung fu movie was amazing.
David Cage is the king of wasting promising premises.
Ross is absolutely the best person to summarize his insanity.
I was going to say Peter Molyneux deserves that crown, but then I remember Molyneux & his team have delivered some all time classics in the past, even if he has been guilty of over promising.
The only good parts of David Cage games are parts not written by him (like Hank and Connor in Detroit, which apparently Cage hated and resisted every step of the way)
@@kenirainseeker539 Cage hated and resisted the one actually good, fleshed-out, and mostly satisfying plotline in the entire game? What a shock.
I want to gift Ross Heavy Rain and Detroit: Become Human so he can do a Game Dungeon of them so badly now.
Ross bringing himself one step closer to opening the pandora's box of game dungeons that is Omikron
That makes me curious. According to my Steam, I played almost 18 hours of Omikron in 2015. I have no knowledge of this, it's missing time. The only thing I know about it is that David Bowie is there. Maybe I need to try again.
Ross playing Omikron sounds terrifying and amazing at the same time.
Ah Omikron, the game where David Cage accidentally cast himself/admited he was the devil and his games are ploys to steal the souls of gamers...
I don't think I could ask for a better Christmas present than Ross unwrapping David Cage's journey from a cool detective thriller into weird supernatural nonsense.
Pretty sure Ross skipped a couple of things, like how Tyler just sort of abandons the plot, or Carla investigating an insane asylum.
39:30 "Next time you won't get away" Always cracks me up, like, bitch, he's literally Neo from Matrix now. What the hell is the NYPD gonna do about it?
I always appreciate your "Ay that's New York!" moments. From machine gunners in the back of vans in Arcade America, to the seizure guy in the bathroom, they've been great
That shift to superhero stuff felt like receiving kickback from getting rearended in the car. It was certainly a bold choice, to say the least.
Another certified Ross banger.
The composer was Angelo Balamenti, who is most well known for doing the Twin Peaks series. That score is amazing, but mainly because Twin Peaks is an absolute fever dream. I thiiiiink they were trying emulate that and go for that kind of a narrative but it went so elaborately unsatisfactory that I think nobody could really do a good job saving it.
I remember being so enamored with this at release. They really did sell the "whatever you do has consequences" thing in the scenes. Only to have the plot go to the exact same place with a few minor differences.
The idea of playing as both the investigator and the perpetrator and having ability to make life easier or harder for the other party is a very intriguing concept.
Shame it went absolutely nowhere.
When the game Until Dawn came out, it made the same claims, and I was like "aha! I see through your bullshit, you are lying to us, I have played enough Mass Effect and other choice-based video games, I know you are leading us along the tracks and only changing the wallpaper". I still love Until Dawn to be honest, it's a great game and I recommend giving it a go when it's affordable, but please do ignore its bullshit about choices.
@@arciks11 It really is a very fascinating concept, especially with the start of this story having the perpretator have a legitimate reason to get time to try to figure out what the hell is happening
@A Toaster Funnily enough 6 years before Virtue's Last Reward was doing the exact same thing he did in Detroit. I genuinely wonder if he ever played that game, because it definitely feels like it.
@@NiiRubra Most games use the lemon style because when they don't, people often complain about dropped plot threads and missing content.
Case in point: Alpha Protocol.
“Why is the mannequin with human skin doing exercises?”
Another excellent out of context Ross quote.
The problem I have with most(if not all) of David Cage's games is that eventually they all become a meta game. Said game involves guessing what movies David Cage was a big fan of while making whichever of his titles you are currently playing. Right off the top of my head I would guess The Matrix and Silence of the Lambs(to a lesser extent) were influential on Fahrenheit. For Heavy Rain, Seven and Saw are the most obvious influences. The ARI interface Agent Jayden uses put me in mind of Minority Report with a dab of Virtuosity. Mind you, you can probably make a drinking game out of this.
So I'm betting Detroit: Become Human was made after he had a really good time with Blade Runner.
@@paulmahoney7619 I'm thinking you are correct. The man just....isn't good at masking his influences.
@@sneakyskunk1 given the Android Cop, he may have watched 2049 as well, but given how long it takes to make a game like DBH that can’t have been the only influence.
@@paulmahoney7619 That is more or less the fun of his games. Guess the influence, and take a drink every time you do:) On second thought, no don't do that. You might die.
Makes me think of Hideo Kojima
Something you might not have noticed in the opening: you can switch controls between the woman detective and her partner, but only her partner can find the blood splatter clue in the bathroom sink. Carla is too mesmerized by her own reflection to see it... because David Cage always has to be weird about women.
he's weird about humans in general
Him and Kojima
@@aprofondir yep
@@aprofondir and Kojima still comes across as awesome. David Cage gives me the creeps.
@@aprofondir I feel like Kojima actually wants to make games where cage just wants to make movies
I remember fucking up the making description part on purpose, giving him dreadlocks and stuff. Then there was a part in the game where Lucas sees his description on TV and says that it looks just like him.
When David Cage appears in person to introduce the game, that's when you know you can expect quality. 👌
I've never commented on your videos before, I think, but after hearing you say you don't really know how to handle Christmas (I assume you meant your Christmas vids), my answer is simply: do what you always do. Each video is already a gift. I enjoy every single one of them. Thanks, Ross. Happy holidays to you and yours.
Exactly what’s gonna get me through this 24 hour staff duty shift. Ross cares for the troops.
You too huh.
Fire guard?
Oof. Tough times all around. Stay strong.
Godspeed.
Not sure what ya do, but mist 24 hour shifts are folks who do really important shit. Even if not, thank you for your hard work, and merry Christmas, ya goober
The "Super Best Friends Play" had a wild journey through all of David Cage's games. God, I miss those guys.
They're still around, just doing their own things. Woolie is keeping the spirit alive the most, while Pat streams and Matt does video essays now.
Scott's Game Asylum has a fantastic Le Cage À Thon
Ah, a christmas game dungeon, now things are starting to get festive. Merry christmas from the Admiral to you!
Merry Christmas, Admiral. Go spend it with your family.
Thanks Admiral! A merry Christmas to you too!
Always nice to see you admiral
Indigo Prophecy sets a world speed record for going from "intriguing murder mystery" to "what the fuck even is this" in like no time flat. I think making an adventure game like Ross wants where your choices have real impact is almost impossible, it would take too much time and too many assets. Closest game that gets it right that I can think of is probably Alpha Protocol. In that game you're going from A to B and following a plot, but at least characters react to things you do. Stuff like mission order, how you treat people, if you're stealthy or not, all have effects. There are a TON of variations in conversations and how things play out in that game.
There are some. Others have pointed out already Shadow the Hedgehog may be the most well known, but there's others. For example, Ai: the somnium files has quite a few branches. Witcher 2 also offers very different act 2s based on choices, tho by the end it sorta all merges, Megami Tensei also has a lot of crazy stuff going on depending on choices, and Henry Stickmin type "choose your own adventure" games also come to mimd.
Best examples may come from oldschool RPGs tho. Although most do have a general plot independently of choices, they can change drastically how things get there and your experience inbetween. For instance Arcanum has so much hidden dialogue its kind of insane, and for a more modern take on the genre Disco Elysium has so much to unlock.
It's not impossible, that's for sure. It takes a lot of trust that the audience will replay it, which is why few dare, but it's not impossible.
The first Dishonored is the best example I can think of where your actions have tangible consequences on the world going forward. If you played violently and killed everyone in your way the city would become more dangerous in later levels with more guard patrols, more rat swarms, more plague infected, etc. The way you play the game will even give you a completely different final level based on your actions.
There definitely are a few games like that, but they're usually shorter and often with long development cycles.
It definitely is possible, it just isn't in the format of a video game, it's in the format of a tabletop RPG. Only when there is an actual human that can adapt to whatever choices the players make on the fly is it possible to have THAT level of content variation while remaining totally faithful to what the players want to do. There are obviously all kinds of problems unique to that medium, but a good TTRPG can accomplish things with narrative that video games are completely incapable of.
Visual novels are the closest thing but those aren't really games and usually most of them have a true ending. So even if you get a different experience by making a choice, there is still an ending the creators wanted you to reach and the other endings are just a what if scenario.
Apparently Angelo Badalamenti (RIP) worked on the soundtrack. His work on Twin Peaks is fantastic.
You know, Quantic Dream when you look at the games they make. They make visually amazing games, awesomely realized set pieces in often realistic settings (even if realism doesn't occur). They can set the bar for a console in terms of visual performances. But then you look at who leads them, and his writing behaviors, and how despite them curtailing him over time trying to reign him in...David Cage takes great efforts to grab his stories, his characters, his settings and absolutely just Gears of War curbstomps the living hell outta them. They become ludicrous, unenjoyable, groan worthy cringe worthy showcases of what not to do with your story if you want someone to take you seriously.
If you're Kojima and you add something dumb to your totally not movie inspired movie game, people will praise you for it because it often circles around and can be rewarding in its own right whether its context is in its own universe or reaches out of it. I'm not necessarily defending that, just acknowledging it. But Cage likes to think he makes deep, thought provoking movies. It's like he rents a Olympic swimming pool, but can only afford to fill up near one third of it. So you just get this weird half step into chest high at best water in this giant rectangle hole in the earth and think wow, that was not what I was expecting. And also, not what I wanted. And also, he somehow installed a camera in the womens shower that you're forced to see as you leave that pool. And I don't care if his fans blame that on the French ideal in the movies/show medium. It's still as creepy as that scrapbook he had of Ellen Page.
I make ze androids sit in ze back of ze bus.
Ross Scott ripping apart a David Cage game?! This is the best Christmas present I could have ever asked for!
The idea that what you do as one character affected the other is completely dropped after the diner, and even what you do in the diner doesn't matter. No matter how carefully you make sure to leave no evidence behind, the game makes the book Lucas was reading disappear during his segment. Then during the police segment, you find the book under the table. The inscription and receipt in the book will lead the cops to Lucas no matter what.
The point to hiding the body and cleaning the blood is Lucas needs all the sanity and emotional stability he can get early game.
Merry Christmas, Ross! David Cage games are the perfect type of entertainment to gather around the fire with friends and family, just to point and laugh at it. What a wonderful time of year!
I have no fingers to point with. And my funnybone broke.
@@woldemunster9244 how do you type?
@@basszille When?
The cop arresting you in your apartment at the beginning of the game when you tell him not to come in is actually very likely the best ending. Any evidence found by an unlawful search is very susceptible to being thrown out during court considerations. Lukas could have probably walked away a free man if he had any Dollar store lawyer representing him. Game over you win! ✨
Of course, if the department realises this, disciplines that cop, and then detains Lukas anyway for probable cause based on the evidence found at the diner...
Ah a Christmas dungeon, now things are starting to make sense.
The universe is in balance once again.
hm.
More later...
Hey. You're not the Admiral....
WHERE IS THE ADMIRAL, *WHAT DID YOU DO WITH T.J.?!?*
@@notinspectorgadget i was opening gifts with my family