In an upcoming video I will better define stroke mechanics, form and technique. I used them loosely and interchangeably in this video and that was sloppy. Norrie has exceptional "technique" and that makes him a world class player, however his stroke mechanics and especially his form leave a lot to be desired. Let me know if this would be interesting topic. Thanks for watching my observations and please consider Subscribing and Liking this video.
Norrie, Gulbis, Soderling, Tiafoe, Chardy and many other pros have odd looking strokes but I disagree when you say they have bad technique. They don't have graceful technique and they have an unusual quirk in their stoke but they still have good technique. Norrie has active feet, prepares early by turning his shoulders and setting his grips, has good adjustment steps to the ball, uses his legs and core rotation to drive the arms forward through contact and has a good full follow through. All of these components are good technique even considering his forehand appears a little jerky and his straight arm prep on the backhand is awkward. If an amateur player gets all the things Norrie does right into their game, they will improve dramatically. I think it is more accurate to say if you have good FUNDAMENTAL technique, you can be effective even with a quirk or 2 in your stroking patterns if you practice hard.
we are in 21st century for 24 years already. we need to start thinking to define good technique quantitatively. there should be some data of Norrie's backhand speed and spin, and of course error percentage. given Norrie's achievements, I think his backhand is not a really weakness, even in world class level. as far as why he formulate such un-fluid form and keep repeating and training, we don't really know. every body is different, from muscle build, visual-brain processing, they all have impact on final form build up.
@@Dasato123 I think you’re right. In this case, I’d say it’s due to the title of the video, and specifically the use of the term “good form.” Is “good form” technique or style? Arguably both.
when you get down to it, all that really matters are contact with the ball and energy transfer, regardless of the beauty level of the strokes; the strokes only affect the efficiency. The marvel of the human body is when we put our minds to it, the body will adjust and compensate to allow us to hit the ball the way that we want hard or soft, ugly or beautiful. That said, Norrie's strokes and Barty's backhand are eye sores.
What I’ve learned from the rec level is repetition is king. You can have nice looking form and technique, but if you can’t replicate it every single time in a match then it’s useless vs a technique that isn’t pretty, but you can consistently do over and over again until the wheels fall off!
At USTA 3.5 level, you see a fair number of bad form players that win. At USTA 4.0 level, you see fewer bad form players that win and USTA 4.5 and above, you see even fewer players winning with bad form. Before you "quash the technique", you might want to consider your goal. If you goal is to win at 4.0 and above, working on good technique is a good idea.
Bad technique can hinder repetition because it can lead to injury. To me most important aspect of good technique is that it stresses the body as little as possible.
Agreed. Form only affect players' efficiency of generating racket head speed and has little to do with how they use the speed. Players with worse forms can accelerate the racket with more effort and pretty much do the same thing as players with better forms.
So I'm curious then as towards this statment at 8:20. If we want to have the most simplistic/optimal stroke mechanics. Whom would you personally recommend learning from ATP/WTA players wise. Or are there any videos that you have or other creators have that I can learn & replicate to achieve a simple, yet optimal ground stroke mechanics
I've been thinking of this for several weeks and I am working on the Top 3 ATP and WTA forehands and backhands to mirror based on what I see as the most efficient strokes. Thanks for suggesting this as it confirms there may be an appetite for such a video.
Agree that you can’t always copy a pro, but what is always true is that pros come to a particular technique for a reason. At club level, you may never play a person that requires you to make changes to your technique. Sure at pro level they’re getting tested regularly. I have a hitting partner that damn near knocks the racket out of your hand due to the weight of the ball he hits. It’s not even the pace but it’s the heavy spin. Recently, I’ve had more luck going with the high elbow (call it next gen) take back rather than the “pat the dog” take back. It just makes me think that this is where the game is going.
Just found your channel and after watching the quick Navarro video, this popped up. Can't wait to hear what you share about the player with the ugliest strokes on the tour. When Norrie & Fritz played, it was unwatchably ugly!
At the end of the vid you gave out the most important knowledge nugget of the vid. Basically you said that rec players should strive for the simplest or optimal technique to help them improve faster. Simpler technique is almost always going to be more repeatable and easier to learn with less repetitions to master it. It could be said that simpler can be a substitute for repetition. The person trying to perfect needlessly complex inefficient strokes HAS TO preform more repetitions just to stay even in ability with someone with more conventional strokes talent being equal. It should also be pointed out that repetitions won’t give you skills/abilities if the form you have doesn’t allow for it. Say you have a perfectly horizontal swing path forehand which of course will produce a flat forehand. You can practice this forehand till the end of times and it won’t magically produce a heavy topspin forehand. Only by altering your form can that happen. On Norrie it could be argued that he is and has talent to waste. In a alternate universe there is probably a Norrie with more conventional/efficient strokes and because of that this universe has a tennis big 4. Fed, Rafa, Joker and Norrie. 😅
As Fed aged-out of his prime, and particularly since he’s retired, I’ve noticed an increasing trend in popular commentary that seems to pooh-pooh the unbelievable beauty and elegance of his game, howsoever undeniably explosive and precise it was. It’s like the group-think has come around to concluding not just that radical, ultra-spinny - and often decidedly unaesthetically pleasing - playing styles are king (including all the nextgen stuff), and to be embraced by all who aspire to greatness, but that the type of stylistic elegance Fed personified is just a lot of vanity-driven, un-macho, lame BS that will never cut it competitively anymore. I get that some players aren’t beautiful to watch and decidedly herky-jerky in their winning ways, and that, to them, their beauty is in their win-loss record and they couldn’t care less about ballet-esque, on-the-court artistry, at least not admittedly. But I’d rather watch old Federer videos any day for enjoyment, inspiration and continuing education than any of those other players in today’s tournaments no matter their ATP ranking. Any NBA schmoe can dunk a basketball these days, but only MJ and a few others that he influenced could turn it into a majestically breathtaking visual spectacle that one could appropriately compare to decidedly non-competitive pursuits like ballet. And Fed won and won and won and won. He had it ALL. Technique and style, on the one hand, and effectiveness in match play, on the other, are not mutually exclusive. Beauty in one’s game may be less important to some than others, but if I can have both, call me crazy or lame or whatever, I’m all in.
WHO POOH-POOH?? Haha, well they're goons if they do. Anybody who knows anything about tennis knows Next Gen isn't sustainable, efficient or effective long term. Smart players know it's not about maximizing spin, it's about absorption, penetration and placement. Roger and Djoker the kings of this.
You've touched on this a bit, but the repetition thing is a bit off. The biggest component to having world-class ground stroke (or even high level) are: 1. ball read 2. footwork. In Cameron Norrie's case, his backhand technique's limitation also seems to translates to why he struggles on grass courts. As a tall player with a very high prep and flat ground stroke (compared to someone like Medvedev, who also have a very flat 2HBH), Norrie struggles to pickup low flat shots to his backhand on surfaces where the ball have limited bounce like grass, leading to higher error rate. With that being said, I'm of the opinion that the technique should fit your needs, not the other way around. If there are certain deficiencies within your stroke mechanism that is causing you to repeatedly produce the same error, it should by all means be corrected (and vice versa).
@@TK-Tennis Technique optimization is a mix of repetition as well as analysis of the player's mechanic. The difference between the top of the top players vs others is this optimization process. For example, Djokovic have optimized his forehand and serve technique to add power/precision/consistency to his game. It takes repetition to make the optimized technique consistent, but the optimization adjustments happens before the repetition.
Norrie does not have bad stroke mechanics by any stretch of the imagination, he has all the fundamentals on every stroke. His technique however is not perfect which is clearly why he will never be a top player. But most amateurs have severe technical flaws holding them back which does not allow them to do any of the things you mentioned (impart the right amount of pace, spin, etc.) even if they are good at judging the ball, someone who stays sideways and pulls only their arm through will never create a good amount of spin or pace. For most amateurs it will help a tremendous amount to have a focus on improving their technique whenever they are on court.
I thought the answer might have been reps given some of the ugly techniques I've seen people make work. Plus, one observation was that tennis is a game ultimately of reps.
💯 Bad technique, such as hitting the ball late is certainly a leading cause of injuries. Poor technique leads to additional forces and energy being transferred into the body.
@@TK-Tennis That is why the loading of the ball has to be done properly. The pros already know the basic fundamentals so some of them get away with using poor form and not harm the body but if the club rec player who doesn't know the basic fundamentals does this and dosen't have that knowledge that the pros have they will sooner or later injure themselves and hit off the wrist if they don't have knowledge of using the kinetic chain..
Now imagine how good this guy could be with a good technique if he got so high with this abomination. I agree 100% that rec players need to learn the easiest and the most effective technique. You need consistency above all. That means no extremes. Classical technique will be the most suitable for all, modern technique is more difficult but still ok, next gen is big no.
Fair and a good idea. I think it would be very worthwhile to discuss and define technique, form and stroke mechanics and do a better job when I analyze players.
Imho its just ego, compare Medvedev who is always is made fun about hus technique compared to For example...sebastian korda who its as aesthetic and relaxed as can be...and compare their careers...i hink repetition its wayy more important than looking "cute" playing
Lol , finally someone other than myself who thinks Norrie has the strangest/worst looking double handed backhand ever. I love tennis and follow every ATP and WTA week on week calendar year but as soon as Norrie is up , even against my favourite players (Carlos, Holger, Casper.....) I aint watching that match😂. At least Medvedev's technique on some of his shots are hilarious and makes you chuckle.
What's interesting is the trend where players gesture to fans to applaud or rise-up after they hit an amazing shot. Players with beautiful form rarely or never need to do this, because fans immediately erupt when they hit amazing shots. Medvedev and many other players who have less stylish form or are disliked, often gesture to fans to get excited and I always laugh and say...dude you shot looks like garbage or they just don't like you 😂
That's just bs lmao, it sounds More like a bitterness by fans, Sebastián Korda and Tommy paul have really good looking tennis, nobody cares about them, not even when they play un usa, people cheer More to guys like tiafoe than them@@TK-Tennis
In an upcoming video I will better define stroke mechanics, form and technique. I used them loosely and interchangeably in this video and that was sloppy. Norrie has exceptional "technique" and that makes him a world class player, however his stroke mechanics and especially his form leave a lot to be desired. Let me know if this would be interesting topic.
Thanks for watching my observations and please consider Subscribing and Liking this video.
Norrie, Gulbis, Soderling, Tiafoe, Chardy and many other pros have odd looking strokes but I disagree when you say they have bad technique. They don't have graceful technique and they have an unusual quirk in their stoke but they still have good technique. Norrie has active feet, prepares early by turning his shoulders and setting his grips, has good adjustment steps to the ball, uses his legs and core rotation to drive the arms forward through contact and has a good full follow through. All of these components are good technique even considering his forehand appears a little jerky and his straight arm prep on the backhand is awkward. If an amateur player gets all the things Norrie does right into their game, they will improve dramatically. I think it is more accurate to say if you have good FUNDAMENTAL technique, you can be effective even with a quirk or 2 in your stroking patterns if you practice hard.
100% agree, so many youtube coaches are so quick to criticize some of the world's best players
we are in 21st century for 24 years already. we need to start thinking to define good technique quantitatively. there should be some data of Norrie's backhand speed and spin, and of course error percentage. given Norrie's achievements, I think his backhand is not a really weakness, even in world class level. as far as why he formulate such un-fluid form and keep repeating and training, we don't really know. every body is different, from muscle build, visual-brain processing, they all have impact on final form build up.
I think style often gets substituted for technique/mechanics in these discussions.
@@Dasato123 I think you’re right. In this case, I’d say it’s due to the title of the video, and specifically the use of the term “good form.” Is “good form” technique or style? Arguably both.
@@yili9725Very good comment? totally agree
when you get down to it, all that really matters are contact with the ball and energy transfer, regardless of the beauty level of the strokes; the strokes only affect the efficiency. The marvel of the human body is when we put our minds to it, the body will adjust and compensate to allow us to hit the ball the way that we want hard or soft, ugly or beautiful. That said, Norrie's strokes and Barty's backhand are eye sores.
What I’ve learned from the rec level is repetition is king. You can have nice looking form and technique, but if you can’t replicate it every single time in a match then it’s useless vs a technique that isn’t pretty, but you can consistently do over and over again until the wheels fall off!
This is intuitive to anyone who has lost to someone with "bad" form. You quash the technique driven ego immediately....or, should.
Losing to someone with worse technique just means you are worse mentally.
At USTA 3.5 level, you see a fair number of bad form players that win. At USTA 4.0 level, you see fewer bad form players that win and USTA 4.5 and above, you see even fewer players winning with bad form. Before you "quash the technique", you might want to consider your goal. If you goal is to win at 4.0 and above, working on good technique is a good idea.
@@CJZM7777 Punctuation is very helpful.
Bad technique can hinder repetition because it can lead to injury. To me most important aspect of good technique is that it stresses the body as little as possible.
Agreed. Form only affect players' efficiency of generating racket head speed and has little to do with how they use the speed. Players with worse forms can accelerate the racket with more effort and pretty much do the same thing as players with better forms.
So I'm curious then as towards this statment at 8:20.
If we want to have the most simplistic/optimal stroke mechanics. Whom would you personally recommend learning from ATP/WTA players wise.
Or are there any videos that you have or other creators have that I can learn & replicate to achieve a simple, yet optimal ground stroke mechanics
I've been thinking of this for several weeks and I am working on the Top 3 ATP and WTA forehands and backhands to mirror based on what I see as the most efficient strokes. Thanks for suggesting this as it confirms there may be an appetite for such a video.
Agree that you can’t always copy a pro, but what is always true is that pros come to a particular technique for a reason. At club level, you may never play a person that requires you to make changes to your technique. Sure at pro level they’re getting tested regularly. I have a hitting partner that damn near knocks the racket out of your hand due to the weight of the ball he hits. It’s not even the pace but it’s the heavy spin. Recently, I’ve had more luck going with the high elbow (call it next gen) take back rather than the “pat the dog” take back. It just makes me think that this is where the game is going.
Just found your channel and after watching the quick Navarro video, this popped up. Can't wait to hear what you share about the player with the ugliest strokes on the tour. When Norrie & Fritz played, it was unwatchably ugly!
I've learned to appreciate Fritz's strokes, not anywhere near the ugly factor as Norrie.
At the end of the vid you gave out the most important knowledge nugget of the vid. Basically you said that rec players should strive for the simplest or optimal technique to help them improve faster. Simpler technique is almost always going to be more repeatable and easier to learn with less repetitions to master it. It could be said that simpler can be a substitute for repetition. The person trying to perfect needlessly complex inefficient strokes HAS TO preform more repetitions just to stay even in ability with someone with more conventional strokes talent being equal.
It should also be pointed out that repetitions won’t give you skills/abilities if the form you have doesn’t allow for it. Say you have a perfectly horizontal swing path forehand which of course will produce a flat forehand. You can practice this forehand till the end of times and it won’t magically produce a heavy topspin forehand. Only by altering your form can that happen.
On Norrie it could be argued that he is and has talent to waste. In a alternate universe there is probably a Norrie with more conventional/efficient strokes and because of that this universe has a tennis big 4. Fed, Rafa, Joker and Norrie. 😅
As Fed aged-out of his prime, and particularly since he’s retired, I’ve noticed an increasing trend in popular commentary that seems to pooh-pooh the unbelievable beauty and elegance of his game, howsoever undeniably explosive and precise it was. It’s like the group-think has come around to concluding not just that radical, ultra-spinny - and often decidedly unaesthetically pleasing - playing styles are king (including all the nextgen stuff), and to be embraced by all who aspire to greatness, but that the type of stylistic elegance Fed personified is just a lot of vanity-driven, un-macho, lame BS that will never cut it competitively anymore. I get that some players aren’t beautiful to watch and decidedly herky-jerky in their winning ways, and that, to them, their beauty is in their win-loss record and they couldn’t care less about ballet-esque, on-the-court artistry, at least not admittedly. But I’d rather watch old Federer videos any day for enjoyment, inspiration and continuing education than any of those other players in today’s tournaments no matter their ATP ranking.
Any NBA schmoe can dunk a basketball these days, but only MJ and a few others that he influenced could turn it into a majestically breathtaking visual spectacle that one could appropriately compare to decidedly non-competitive pursuits like ballet.
And Fed won and won and won and won. He had it ALL. Technique and style, on the one hand, and effectiveness in match play, on the other, are not mutually exclusive. Beauty in one’s game may be less important to some than others, but if I can have both, call me crazy or lame or whatever, I’m all in.
WHO POOH-POOH?? Haha, well they're goons if they do. Anybody who knows anything about tennis knows Next Gen isn't sustainable, efficient or effective long term. Smart players know it's not about maximizing spin, it's about absorption, penetration and placement. Roger and Djoker the kings of this.
You've touched on this a bit, but the repetition thing is a bit off. The biggest component to having world-class ground stroke (or even high level) are: 1. ball read 2. footwork.
In Cameron Norrie's case, his backhand technique's limitation also seems to translates to why he struggles on grass courts. As a tall player with a very high prep and flat ground stroke (compared to someone like Medvedev, who also have a very flat 2HBH), Norrie struggles to pickup low flat shots to his backhand on surfaces where the ball have limited bounce like grass, leading to higher error rate. With that being said, I'm of the opinion that the technique should fit your needs, not the other way around. If there are certain deficiencies within your stroke mechanism that is causing you to repeatedly produce the same error, it should by all means be corrected (and vice versa).
All good points, although ball read/ball anticipation are acquired through repetition as-is optimizing technique.
@@TK-Tennis Technique optimization is a mix of repetition as well as analysis of the player's mechanic. The difference between the top of the top players vs others is this optimization process. For example, Djokovic have optimized his forehand and serve technique to add power/precision/consistency to his game. It takes repetition to make the optimized technique consistent, but the optimization adjustments happens before the repetition.
That´s interesting...thanks !
Players actually fear Norrie's backhand more because it has awkward pacing, making anything a deadball Simon style.
Norrie does not have bad stroke mechanics by any stretch of the imagination, he has all the fundamentals on every stroke.
His technique however is not perfect which is clearly why he will never be a top player.
But most amateurs have severe technical flaws holding them back which does not allow them to do any of the things you mentioned (impart the right amount of pace, spin, etc.) even if they are good at judging the ball, someone who stays sideways and pulls only their arm through will never create a good amount of spin or pace.
For most amateurs it will help a tremendous amount to have a focus on improving their technique whenever they are on court.
I thought the answer might have been reps given some of the ugly techniques I've seen people make work. Plus, one observation was that tennis is a game ultimately of reps.
Is bad form the leading cause for injuries?
💯 Bad technique, such as hitting the ball late is certainly a leading cause of injuries. Poor technique leads to additional forces and energy being transferred into the body.
@@TK-Tennis That is why the loading of the ball has to be done properly. The pros already know the basic fundamentals so some of them get away
with using poor form and not harm the body but if the club rec player who doesn't know the basic fundamentals does this and dosen't have that knowledge that the pros have
they will sooner or later injure themselves and hit off the wrist if they don't have knowledge of using the kinetic chain..
Now imagine how good this guy could be with a good technique if he got so high with this abomination.
I agree 100% that rec players need to learn the easiest and the most effective technique. You need consistency above all. That means no extremes. Classical technique will be the most suitable for all, modern technique is more difficult but still ok, next gen is big no.
Look at pros, so many different ways to hit the ball. But with hundred of thousands of hits they have it down pat.
👍 There are countless ways to hit the ball, and while there may be no one "right" way, there most certainly are more and less efficient ways.
Please define bad technique to make the argument.
Fair and a good idea. I think it would be very worthwhile to discuss and define technique, form and stroke mechanics and do a better job when I analyze players.
inefficient and ugly
I really like Norrie forehand.
This comment made me smile. Different strokes for different folks, right!
@TK-Tennis Do you only analyze pro players in your videos? I would suggest analyzing one of my videos where I'm playing lefty and righty forehands.
Very similar to Tommy Paul.
@@bigboytennis1 Like watching Norrie, I may have a stroke watching/analyzing that ;-)
$6 million banked by Norrie..... Cap doffed!
Imho its just ego, compare Medvedev who is always is made fun about hus technique compared to For example...sebastian korda who its as aesthetic and relaxed as can be...and compare their careers...i hink repetition its wayy more important than looking "cute" playing
Lol , finally someone other than myself who thinks Norrie has the strangest/worst looking double handed backhand ever.
I love tennis and follow every ATP and WTA week on week calendar year but as soon as Norrie is up , even against my favourite players (Carlos, Holger, Casper.....) I aint watching that match😂. At least Medvedev's technique on some of his shots are hilarious and makes you chuckle.
What's interesting is the trend where players gesture to fans to applaud or rise-up after they hit an amazing shot. Players with beautiful form rarely or never need to do this, because fans immediately erupt when they hit amazing shots. Medvedev and many other players who have less stylish form or are disliked, often gesture to fans to get excited and I always laugh and say...dude you shot looks like garbage or they just don't like you 😂
That's just bs lmao, it sounds More like a bitterness by fans, Sebastián Korda and Tommy paul have really good looking tennis, nobody cares about them, not even when they play un usa, people cheer More to guys like tiafoe than them@@TK-Tennis