Excellent video. I was an early adopter of AFDDs as a residential consumer/ homeowner. I needed a new consumer unit when I moved into my property and I decided have AFDDs (not Verso brand) on every circuit on my house, as protecting my family was a priority (electrical fire is probably our highest fire risk, as we don't smoke or own a chip pan). I have had problems with unwanted tripping. They are certainly sensitive; for example, you will spot if you haven't pushed a plug home fully, which is what they are designed to do. I totally agree that reducing the sensitivity isn't the way to go, as that defeats the object of the device. Adding extra circuits is definitely an option, however, it is both expensive (after paying a lot of money for the AFDDs) and will generally involve redecoration, so it is not a very attractive option for a homeowner. For me, better diagnostic devices are what are needed to make AFDDs more attractive. Something like a PAT tester, but for AFDDs would allow you to easily identify a load which is causing the tripping and then you could remove it. It's not easy to find the issue device as I have found switching power supplies (brand new, major reputable brand) to be the cause, but these have a load in the low milliampere range so would not trip an AFDD device on their own. You then find when you use a high powered device like a vacuum cleaner or a hairdryer, it trips. But it's not the vacuum cleaner or the hairdryer causing the trip, as if you use those devices on a different AFDD protected circuit, they work fine. I therefore, think more fault finding training is needed, both for electricians and the general public.
Great information. Recently installed a new Verso CU ( 1st Verso I've installed) in a Church and advised AFDDs for the two 32amp rings, one of which served a small kitchette. When the kettle was used from cold 1st time in the day, no problem but if it was re- boiled at any other time the AFDD would trip, tested the kettle no obvious fault but it was quite an old model, other kettles/ appliances did not effect the AFDD. Advised the client to replace, after see this video I'm now anticipating a call at some point regarding nuisance tripping, beginning to wish I hadn't advised the devices. Probably OK in new installations but I will avoid recommending for existing where possible.
Thanks for watching 👍🏽 If it hasn’t tripped yet I would very much doubt you will have a call back. It was likely the older appliance. Retro fit situations should be fine, the video wasn’t meant to scare lol we have had very very few reports of any tripping with AFDDs. William has simply tried to share as many reasons as possible as to what would impact an AFDD and why it might trip regardless of brand 👍🏽 If you ever have any questions going forward just give us a call 👌🏽
Very good presentation and great info. The is that customer may take up on the additional protection and cost, but trying to explain and justify why the fridges and freezers have gone out on a nuisance trip is going to be difficult to explain. One for the insurance companies as to protection against a possible cause of a fire and paying out for loss in the freezers.
Spoke with various trading house suppliers at a recent CEF techtalk and none of them could tell me who’s software or microprocessors their AFDDs incorporated, they had no idea. They didn’t even know really what an AFDD’s purpose was. No experience in selling the product, no experience in specifying the product, just imported rubbish destined to fail. Hager told me everything about their unit, how it had been intensely field tested and only released once everything was perfect. They told me who’s software it uses and the installation benefits it had. Wylex also told me all about their SIEMENS software and how they have over 500,000 AFDDs protecting circuits in the UK already and have been doing for the past 5 years with no nuisance tripping reported at all. All the “hoo haa” as you put it, is because of poor imported third party, untried and untested products being offered by uneducated wholesalers as a cheap alternative to major manufacturers. Stick to the proper manufacturers.
Thanks for watching. Agree there are a lot of people who do not have the right information yet. William does mention how these are not all made the same and have been readily available on Europe for sometime. Again I’d like to stress that this video isn’t talking about any single AFDD just highlighting the issues people are having and the reasons why they maybe facing them. 👍🏽
If false positives are a problem then the algorithms used to monitor the waveform are simply not good enough to reliably differentiate true arc faults from other noise on the circuit. The other side of the coin is how often these devices miss true arc faults. The problem is that for an electrician an AFDD is a black box, he/she has no idea if it is working correctly i.e within some kind of tolerance bounds or what potential effects the various load types might have on the waveform and therefore the AFDD!
Great comment and thanks for watching. I understand your point however I would ask, if the boundaries of tolerance have already managed and accepted in Europe with proof that these devices work, is it more of a mindset and understanding change that needs to happen in the uk? Also, you’ve hit the nail on the head. Our perception of AFDDs being a box that we simply fit into a board, needs to adjust as both boards and socket outlets are no long simple passive devices
Yes agree a mindset change will need to happen, but in my opinion I think it goes beyond that in as much as AFDD’s are highly complex devices and arc fault signatures that they look for are not straightforward, so 100% reliability is not attainable. Confidence in such devices will ultimately come from experience combined with education/training and of course improvements in the technology over time.
Agree! A point I think William makes well is that all of these devices aren’t made to the same standards or tested to the same standards. This is something that will also impact the installers as well Thanks for watching 👍🏽
Differentiating between dangerous arc and operational equipment arcs rely on five main criteria High frequency power monitoring- is there an increase of background level +15dB or more. Synchronisation- if this is greater than 95% Current value - if this is greater than 1.5A High frequency stability- if this is greater than 80% Duration of the incident- if this is more than 60% of the tripping curve. Yes to all five of those criteria puts the monitored arc into the zone of being an analysed genuine dangerous arc fault. The device itself, if from a reputable manufacturer, will inform you if it is not working correctly. The reliability of these products is not in question from manufacturers who have years of experience in designing, manufacturing and thoroughly testing them.
@@mikenewman9372 Good information! I have no doubt that the algorithms are sophisticated or that the manufacturers themselves have full confidence in the reliability of there products. However, waveform analysis of this nature will always have an element of uncertainty!
Ive just had a rewire on a flat above a shop, AFDDs mandatory on 2 32a ring circuits. All new appliances. With just washing machine on standby, turn microwave on, trips in less than 10 secs every time. Thats a nuisance trip. AFDD reports series arc fault. RCBO instead, no trip. Of course AFDD put back in but I am now completely stuck!
With traditional protection advices I would agree. But again these devices are designed differently as a preventative measure to a different type of risk. Waveform consideration will eliminate the tripping 👍🏽
Hi, do you have any advice on how to prevent nuisance tripping as a tenant? I live in an HMO and the landlord has recently had AFDDs installed; these appear to cause the electricity to trip regularly. Is there anything we can do to prevent this?
Thanks for watching. There are a few things. A huge culprit of tripping AFDDs are extension leads. Make sure they aren’t bent up and the cable on them isn’t compromised. 8 in 10 people have illuminated these issues by either removing or replacing damaged extensions leads. Another is ensuring the leads on alliances aren’t knotted or damaged, this again will create a similar issue.
@@navitascp Thank you (belatedly!) for this. In the end, the issue turned out to be our WiFi extender - this was routing WiFi signal through the wires in the house, which caused the circuits to trip. The fix was simple when identified, just get a WiFi extender that doesn't send signal through the wires! (Sharing here in case others are having similar issues.)
@@DH-tv2ywif you have a wifi extender I strongly suggest removing it and seeing if that solves the issue. Based solely on my own very frustrating experience 😂
@shannontaylor3565 thank you. Yes, I did have a WiFi extender and removing it has noticeably reduced the number of trips, although WiFi is now not as strong in parts of the house 😂. I also swapped the router which made a big difference. I also have a few items that I know trip it (TV, computer) in combination with big loads, so they are on smart plugs so I can turn them off easily before I use something like the hairdryer.
@@navitascp the need to better understand suitable selection of these devices with regards to how suitable they are to use on UK electrical systems. We have highlighted numerous times in our podcasts on the need to carefully select these things with very close consideration on the utilisation of the electrical system. Plus we have discussed the need to properly communicate with the client, to understand the intentional use of the accessories downstream. 13Amp socket-outlets are not universal accessory points anymore, the equipment plugged in can have heavy consequences on the operational behaviours of the protective equipment selected. Electricians are hot-swapping these things onto circuits which previously just had an RCBO, the number of connected devices downstream are going to be troublesome.
Excellent video.
I was an early adopter of AFDDs as a residential consumer/ homeowner. I needed a new consumer unit when I moved into my property and I decided have AFDDs (not Verso brand) on every circuit on my house, as protecting my family was a priority (electrical fire is probably our highest fire risk, as we don't smoke or own a chip pan). I have had problems with unwanted tripping. They are certainly sensitive; for example, you will spot if you haven't pushed a plug home fully, which is what they are designed to do.
I totally agree that reducing the sensitivity isn't the way to go, as that defeats the object of the device. Adding extra circuits is definitely an option, however, it is both expensive (after paying a lot of money for the AFDDs) and will generally involve redecoration, so it is not a very attractive option for a homeowner.
For me, better diagnostic devices are what are needed to make AFDDs more attractive. Something like a PAT tester, but for AFDDs would allow you to easily identify a load which is causing the tripping and then you could remove it. It's not easy to find the issue device as I have found switching power supplies (brand new, major reputable brand) to be the cause, but these have a load in the low milliampere range so would not trip an AFDD device on their own. You then find when you use a high powered device like a vacuum cleaner or a hairdryer, it trips. But it's not the vacuum cleaner or the hairdryer causing the trip, as if you use those devices on a different AFDD protected circuit, they work fine. I therefore, think more fault finding training is needed, both for electricians and the general public.
Great information.
Recently installed a new Verso CU ( 1st Verso I've installed) in a Church and advised AFDDs for the two 32amp rings, one of which served a small kitchette.
When the kettle was used from cold 1st time in the day, no problem but if it was re- boiled at any other time the AFDD would trip, tested the kettle no obvious fault but it was quite an old model, other kettles/ appliances did not effect the AFDD. Advised the client to replace, after see this video I'm now anticipating a call at some point regarding nuisance tripping, beginning to wish I hadn't advised the devices.
Probably OK in new installations but I will avoid recommending for existing where possible.
Thanks for watching 👍🏽
If it hasn’t tripped yet I would very much doubt you will have a call back. It was likely the older appliance.
Retro fit situations should be fine, the video wasn’t meant to scare lol we have had very very few reports of any tripping with AFDDs. William has simply tried to share as many reasons as possible as to what would impact an AFDD and why it might trip regardless of brand 👍🏽
If you ever have any questions going forward just give us a call 👌🏽
To be fair that’s a quality breakdown, thanks!
Thank you 👍🏽 thanks for watching
great vidz learn More on equipment you are installing I,m learning to be a Sparky doing my level3 apprenticeship with boss Tommy , ⚡️👊
Very good presentation and great info. The is that customer may take up on the additional protection and cost, but trying to explain and justify why the fridges and freezers have gone out on a nuisance trip is going to be difficult to explain. One for the insurance companies as to protection against a possible cause of a fire and paying out for loss in the freezers.
Thanks for watching 👍🏽
Spoke with various trading house suppliers at a recent CEF techtalk and none of them could tell me who’s software or microprocessors their AFDDs incorporated, they had no idea. They didn’t even know really what an AFDD’s purpose was. No experience in selling the product, no experience in specifying the product, just imported rubbish destined to fail. Hager told me everything about their unit, how it had been intensely field tested and only released once everything was perfect. They told me who’s software it uses and the installation benefits it had.
Wylex also told me all about their SIEMENS software and how they have over 500,000 AFDDs protecting circuits in the UK already and have been doing for the past 5 years with no nuisance tripping reported at all. All the “hoo haa” as you put it, is because of poor imported third party, untried and untested products being offered by uneducated wholesalers as a cheap alternative to major manufacturers.
Stick to the proper manufacturers.
Thanks for watching.
Agree there are a lot of people who do not have the right information yet. William does mention how these are not all made the same and have been readily available on Europe for sometime.
Again I’d like to stress that this video isn’t talking about any single AFDD just highlighting the issues people are having and the reasons why they maybe facing them. 👍🏽
If false positives are a problem then the algorithms used to monitor the waveform are simply not good enough to reliably differentiate true arc faults from other noise on the circuit. The other side of the coin is how often these devices miss true arc faults. The problem is that for an electrician an AFDD is a black box, he/she has no idea if it is working correctly i.e within some kind of tolerance bounds or what potential effects the various load types might have on the waveform and therefore the AFDD!
Great comment and thanks for watching. I understand your point however I would ask, if the boundaries of tolerance have already managed and accepted in Europe with proof that these devices work, is it more of a mindset and understanding change that needs to happen in the uk?
Also, you’ve hit the nail on the head. Our perception of AFDDs being a box that we simply fit into a board, needs to adjust as both boards and socket outlets are no long simple passive devices
Yes agree a mindset change will need to happen, but in my opinion I think it goes beyond that in as much as AFDD’s are highly complex devices and arc fault signatures that they look for are not straightforward, so 100% reliability is not attainable. Confidence in such devices will ultimately come from experience combined with education/training and of course improvements in the technology over time.
Agree! A point I think William makes well is that all of these devices aren’t made to the same standards or tested to the same standards. This is something that will also impact the installers as well
Thanks for watching 👍🏽
Differentiating between dangerous arc and operational equipment arcs rely on five main criteria
High frequency power monitoring- is there an increase of background level +15dB or more.
Synchronisation- if this is greater than 95%
Current value - if this is greater than 1.5A
High frequency stability- if this is greater than 80%
Duration of the incident- if this is more than 60% of the tripping curve.
Yes to all five of those criteria puts the monitored arc into the zone of being an analysed genuine dangerous arc fault.
The device itself, if from a reputable manufacturer, will inform you if it is not working correctly. The reliability of these products is not in question from manufacturers who have years of experience in designing, manufacturing and thoroughly testing them.
@@mikenewman9372 Good information! I have no doubt that the algorithms are sophisticated or that the manufacturers themselves have full confidence in the reliability of there products. However, waveform analysis of this nature will always have an element of uncertainty!
Ive just had a rewire on a flat above a shop, AFDDs mandatory on 2 32a ring circuits. All new appliances. With just washing machine on standby, turn microwave on, trips in less than 10 secs every time. Thats a nuisance trip. AFDD reports series arc fault. RCBO instead, no trip. Of course AFDD put back in but I am now completely stuck!
Have you tried changing the microwave? Sounds like that os where the problem lies
I define nuisance tripping as tripping when there is no fault, which, from what you describe, it sounds like AFDDs are prone to.
With traditional protection advices I would agree. But again these devices are designed differently as a preventative measure to a different type of risk. Waveform consideration will eliminate the tripping 👍🏽
@@navitascp How are we to consider waveforms?
Hi, do you have any advice on how to prevent nuisance tripping as a tenant? I live in an HMO and the landlord has recently had AFDDs installed; these appear to cause the electricity to trip regularly. Is there anything we can do to prevent this?
Thanks for watching.
There are a few things. A huge culprit of tripping AFDDs are extension leads. Make sure they aren’t bent up and the cable on them isn’t compromised. 8 in 10 people have illuminated these issues by either removing or replacing damaged extensions leads.
Another is ensuring the leads on alliances aren’t knotted or damaged, this again will create a similar issue.
@@navitascp Thank you (belatedly!) for this.
In the end, the issue turned out to be our WiFi extender - this was routing WiFi signal through the wires in the house, which caused the circuits to trip. The fix was simple when identified, just get a WiFi extender that doesn't send signal through the wires!
(Sharing here in case others are having similar issues.)
I also have had issues with WiFi and my AFDDs, although I am still not sure if this was caused by the WiFi signal or the power supply
@@DH-tv2ywif you have a wifi extender I strongly suggest removing it and seeing if that solves the issue. Based solely on my own very frustrating experience 😂
@shannontaylor3565 thank you. Yes, I did have a WiFi extender and removing it has noticeably reduced the number of trips, although WiFi is now not as strong in parts of the house 😂. I also swapped the router which made a big difference. I also have a few items that I know trip it (TV, computer) in combination with big loads, so they are on smart plugs so I can turn them off easily before I use something like the hairdryer.
I think these will defiantly become mandatory in domestic properties in AMD3
There will undoubtedly be more property types added to the mandatory list.
Thanks for watching 👍🏽
Interesting. Not surprised though unfortunately.
With what aspect? Thanks for watching 👍🏽
@@navitascp the need to better understand suitable selection of these devices with regards to how suitable they are to use on UK electrical systems. We have highlighted numerous times in our podcasts on the need to carefully select these things with very close consideration on the utilisation of the electrical system. Plus we have discussed the need to properly communicate with the client, to understand the intentional use of the accessories downstream. 13Amp socket-outlets are not universal accessory points anymore, the equipment plugged in can have heavy consequences on the operational behaviours of the protective equipment selected. Electricians are hot-swapping these things onto circuits which previously just had an RCBO, the number of connected devices downstream are going to be troublesome.
Couldn’t agree more 🙌🏽
Shame this information wasn't in the mainstream prior amendment 2, doubt AFDDs would be in there if it was!