This game replaced 7 Wonders for me. I don't want to play the not as good normal version (best at as few players as possible anyway).With the Pantheon expansion this is a really neat game.
I have the pantheon and agora expansions. I've found these are needed to mitigate against the luck fest of drafting (specifically when a game always gives shit cards on your turn for you to reveal better cards for the opponent). So in addition to the wonders 'take another go' of the base game, pantheon and agora have a few more tricks for dislodging the draft luck element.
The biggest problem of this game to us is the requirement that you must take a card from the display in your round (well apart from building wonders). Sometimes like you said you get nothing you want from the display and what is more frustrating is you know you will give away a better card to your opponent after taking that card…it just doesn’t feel fun. A tonne of people on bgg with high elo just push back quite hard on this point saying that after all it’s skills that matter but this sadly hasn’t been the case for us. We are yet to try it with the expansion although we heard good things about it and perhaps it will fix the issue.
I know it's not a good defense for a game, but the expansions for 7WD - Pantheon in particular - really elevate the experience for me. I love the expanded game and would never go back to playing the base now. Worth a try if the opportunity arises.
i play this with my spouse, she enjoys it though she is not into board games, it is not the best 2 player game in the world but us its good enough for repeated plays on the kitchen table. Sometimes beeing medicore is the strenght if you go for the right audience. Nevertheless I apploaud you beeing honest about not liking it, especially in a world where YT reviewers try to enter publishers anuses to recive free copies of games
it's one of the few games that i really enjoy the 'playing' of the game and utterly hate the end game of, regardless of if i win or lose. i know it's quite revered and thus i try not to rain other peoples parade but this game feels like it just plays itself as your choices are so limiting. i was really curious to see where ya'll netted out with your review, glad to see we're on the same page
The only sad part is people blindly agreeing with Bollocks without having played the game themselves. I love his reviews but you have to have your own brain people! lol
Just to make sure you're playing right: you don't really trade with the other player, the money goes into the bank, and if he doesn't have any of what you want, you can still buy it cheap. Expected stronger dislike points. Don't really understand the "card drafting let's you have a choice what's gonna end up in your hand". This does, too. You choose the cards that you want. When there are only cards you don't like, usually take one you don't want your opponent to have, or sell it if needed, or build a wonder (building wonders is a race, since the last one can't be built anymore). I think it's a great game. The one thing i don't like is that sometimes you end up in a position qhere you can calculate the card draft 10 turns in advance and realize there is no way for you to prevent the other player from getting that winning card. Or vice versa. Or just get screwed by a face down card you have to reveal turning out to be the one your opponent needs to win. Or the card you need is out of the game. But anyway, it had to get that far that one card can decide. I recommend both expansions. If only one then pantheon, because it lets you not draw a card and change draw order to do something about the mentioned problem.
Yeah, I echo a lot of your points as well. You can tell when someone has played Duel a lot when they bring up *genuine* negatives (like how you said you can calculate all the future moves = fixed by Pantheon). The other negative (fixed by Agora) is how Blue cards are practically worthless in Age 1.
I think the big cards from the original game might be a better fit in the Duel version, and the mini cards in the OG. Because the OG was a table hog, especially at full player count. Also, This one shines with the politics expansion, it makes it a great game.
When i got into rhe hobby some years ago this was in all the list of best 2p games. At the time we had played very few games and i still didn't like this much. It was so boring for some reason.
Finally, a review of this game I can get on board with! For me, it's easily the most overrated game in the BGG top 100. Drafting is tedious: chose the card that's obviously best for you, trash the card that's obviously best for your opponent, or chose/trash the card that gives your opponent the worst options/fewest hidden card unveils (which is just luck). Absolutely fucking tedious. The original 7W I enjoy, but not this...
It really isn't. It's a deeply strategic game (or more accurately, tactical game). The real problem with the base game (and this is only after you've played it dozens of times), is you can 'math' out the next few turns--"I'll take this, they'll have to take that, then I'll take this, etc." There's a few Wonders that allow you to take another turn, which adds unpredictability but it's not enough. I really love Duel+Pantheon because it breaks up the rhythm of the game, making it trickier to predict what your opponent will do (or more difficult to force them into bad moves). The other minor issue with Duel base game is that there really is no reason to grab Blue (Points) cards in the first Age. Every other card type is a better choice in that early part of the game...BUT the other expansion Agora fixes that issue because Blue cards are much more valuable there. "Luck" has never been a major problem with this game (apart from the usual good/bad luck of flipping/drawing cards that exist in practically every card game). (I love both expansions but I never play with both at the same time--it provides too many choices and it's headache for me. Which I choose to play depends on my mood. Pantheon allows you to do a few BIG moves. Agora is more of an accumulation of several small moves that lead to victory).
@@billable1861 How is it a "blind draft" when you can literally see half of the cards on the table (and the path to opening those cards up). The whole tension that comes from the game is that whenever you chose a card, you're either opening up availability of a face-up card or potentially revealing a card they need...And the beauty of it is you don't have to. You can grab a card (that you don't value much) precisely because it doesn't open anything up, or you can take that risk because the card you're getting is something you really need. You can't play this game solitaire style. You *have* to pay close attention to what your opponent is trying to do. That high level of interaction is why I vastly prefer it to the original 7 Wonders. Calling this game "lucky" is the most baffling criticism I've heard.
@@adamg4912how is it not luck if the tactics you speak of are simply mathing out which cards you can select as a result of an entirely random dealing of the cards? Can't disagree more. Really don't understand how more people don't see this game for what it is. I feel like people think it's a tactical game because they think tactics are taking a moment to interpret the reality of the card draw.
@@adamg4912 the scenario you've described isn't the full picture though is it. Many times I've played this game and it's come down to not opening up a great card for my opponent Vs revealing. Add in the guild cards you've gone for maybe or maybe not appearing....I dunno. Feel like one of you is arguing it's entirely lucky and the other of you is arguing it's entirely not unlucky, where as it's actually somewhere in between
Turns into a good game with Pantheon. But don't give them ideas on a remake, then it'll turn into the cash grab they did with 7 wonders ruining any ability to get expansions.
I remember when this game got raved about by the Dice Tower and several others. Bought it on sale, played it one time and… didn’t like it. Played it again and.. didn’t like it. It’s a point salad game with manufactured and not real tension. I say that because sometimes the way the cards are you simply cannot come back if somebody finds their angle.
It's a good game. But nowhere near as good as it's made out to be. Choices feel very limited and no amount of prior planning can mitigate against pure bad luck. Sometimes your opponent just high rolls the hell out of you. Pantheon makes this good game a very good game. But even then I find the choices a bit too....obvious. But luck in both the cards you can grab and the guild cards that make their way into play is still too high foe me. And science and military aren't ever enough of a realistic enough incentive to diverge from the sensible, standard, normal, boring choices that you normally make.
7 wonders boring uninteractive tableu builder game where it always feels like your turn is just mostly obvious as to what the most efficient move is once you have chosen your path to victory. There is no space in boardgaming with so many games that do what they do betterrrrrrrr. Both 7 wonders and dual can go suck it and live with its boring cousin shitspan in a cupboard to gather dust for all eternity. (Unpopular Opinon) But do I care......no! C U allllllll Next Tuesday.
@@simonb9898 so you claim to do a stupid laugh icon but fail to ask in a basic way what games I think are better hahaha. my comment doesn't have to obey you're rules hahahahahaah But since you asked so nicely!!!!! Abyss, Maracaibo Roll and Race for the galaxy, Colony, Space base, Earth, Ark Nova and the list goes on and on and on
Игры
I did not expect you not liking this game. I love the open drafting and the pace of the game. I would highly recommend this 2p-only game!!
What else do you like 2 player?
This game replaced 7 Wonders for me. I don't want to play the not as good normal version (best at as few players as possible anyway).With the Pantheon expansion this is a really neat game.
I have played this game so many times!
This is a great 2-player game!
I have the pantheon and agora expansions. I've found these are needed to mitigate against the luck fest of drafting (specifically when a game always gives shit cards on your turn for you to reveal better cards for the opponent). So in addition to the wonders 'take another go' of the base game, pantheon and agora have a few more tricks for dislodging the draft luck element.
p.s. everyone goes on about Pantheon (i guess it's 'prettier') but Agora is much more tactically interesting.
The biggest problem of this game to us is the requirement that you must take a card from the display in your round (well apart from building wonders). Sometimes like you said you get nothing you want from the display and what is more frustrating is you know you will give away a better card to your opponent after taking that card…it just doesn’t feel fun. A tonne of people on bgg with high elo just push back quite hard on this point saying that after all it’s skills that matter but this sadly hasn’t been the case for us.
We are yet to try it with the expansion although we heard good things about it and perhaps it will fix the issue.
This is the main reason I stopped playing it. It feels like you’re at a disadvantage based on which order you draw…which is not a great mechanic.
@@ayyyota it's mad to me what appears to be very obvious RNG luck doesn't annoy more people
I know it's not a good defense for a game, but the expansions for 7WD - Pantheon in particular - really elevate the experience for me. I love the expanded game and would never go back to playing the base now. Worth a try if the opportunity arises.
On this one we must agree to disagree!
i play this with my spouse, she enjoys it though she is not into board games, it is not the best 2 player game in the world but us its good enough for repeated plays on the kitchen table. Sometimes beeing medicore is the strenght if you go for the right audience. Nevertheless I apploaud you beeing honest about not liking it, especially in a world where YT reviewers try to enter publishers anuses to recive free copies of games
it's one of the few games that i really enjoy the 'playing' of the game and utterly hate the end game of, regardless of if i win or lose. i know it's quite revered and thus i try not to rain other peoples parade but this game feels like it just plays itself as your choices are so limiting. i was really curious to see where ya'll netted out with your review, glad to see we're on the same page
Never played and dont want now after his review. Would probably buy Caesar! instead. Do you recommend it?
Not played it mate
You're going to be missing out. Bollocks is way off on this one. He loves 7 Wonders so much that he's blinded by how amazing this game is.
So sad, this is my favourite 2player game and 3rd favourite of all board games.... And apart from shit like chess and mtg, most played game by far too
The only sad part is people blindly agreeing with Bollocks without having played the game themselves. I love his reviews but you have to have your own brain people! lol
This one got my wife into boardgaming, so I am not allowed to say anything bad about it….😅
Just to make sure you're playing right: you don't really trade with the other player, the money goes into the bank, and if he doesn't have any of what you want, you can still buy it cheap.
Expected stronger dislike points.
Don't really understand the "card drafting let's you have a choice what's gonna end up in your hand". This does, too. You choose the cards that you want. When there are only cards you don't like, usually take one you don't want your opponent to have, or sell it if needed, or build a wonder (building wonders is a race, since the last one can't be built anymore).
I think it's a great game. The one thing i don't like is that sometimes you end up in a position qhere you can calculate the card draft 10 turns in advance and realize there is no way for you to prevent the other player from getting that winning card. Or vice versa. Or just get screwed by a face down card you have to reveal turning out to be the one your opponent needs to win. Or the card you need is out of the game. But anyway, it had to get that far that one card can decide.
I recommend both expansions. If only one then pantheon, because it lets you not draw a card and change draw order to do something about the mentioned problem.
I find myself discarding cards most of the time as there’s no cards I want and my opponent seems to do the same because there’s no cards I want.
Yeah, I echo a lot of your points as well. You can tell when someone has played Duel a lot when they bring up *genuine* negatives (like how you said you can calculate all the future moves = fixed by Pantheon). The other negative (fixed by Agora) is how Blue cards are practically worthless in Age 1.
Does the pantheon expansion change your opinion? It allows you to influence the "drafting" more strategically.
Not played it mate
@@BoardGameBollocks I felt all the expansions just over complicated the game
@@theshogunstein6475 for me the pantheon expansion is a massive bonus. Makes an ok to good game a good to very good game
Thanks
I think the big cards from the original game might be a better fit in the Duel version, and the mini cards in the OG. Because the OG was a table hog, especially at full player count. Also, This one shines with the politics expansion, it makes it a great game.
pfff, just picked this up but bright side, only cost me £6
Did you like it?
its fun. every one iv ever played it with likes or loves it too. quick tense..
@@EvangelionPower not played it yet
When i got into rhe hobby some years ago this was in all the list of best 2p games.
At the time we had played very few games and i still didn't like this much. It was so boring for some reason.
Finally, a review of this game I can get on board with! For me, it's easily the most overrated game in the BGG top 100.
Drafting is tedious: chose the card that's obviously best for you, trash the card that's obviously best for your opponent, or chose/trash the card that gives your opponent the worst options/fewest hidden card unveils (which is just luck). Absolutely fucking tedious.
The original 7W I enjoy, but not this...
I totally agree
Too bad they’ve turned it into a get lucky game. Will be looking out for version 3 then...
It really isn't. It's a deeply strategic game (or more accurately, tactical game). The real problem with the base game (and this is only after you've played it dozens of times), is you can 'math' out the next few turns--"I'll take this, they'll have to take that, then I'll take this, etc." There's a few Wonders that allow you to take another turn, which adds unpredictability but it's not enough.
I really love Duel+Pantheon because it breaks up the rhythm of the game, making it trickier to predict what your opponent will do (or more difficult to force them into bad moves).
The other minor issue with Duel base game is that there really is no reason to grab Blue (Points) cards in the first Age. Every other card type is a better choice in that early part of the game...BUT the other expansion Agora fixes that issue because Blue cards are much more valuable there.
"Luck" has never been a major problem with this game (apart from the usual good/bad luck of flipping/drawing cards that exist in practically every card game).
(I love both expansions but I never play with both at the same time--it provides too many choices and it's headache for me. Which I choose to play depends on my mood. Pantheon allows you to do a few BIG moves. Agora is more of an accumulation of several small moves that lead to victory).
@@adamg4912I disagree it’s largely blind draft. I’ve played it multiple times, I own it, and I agree with the video observation.
@@billable1861 How is it a "blind draft" when you can literally see half of the cards on the table (and the path to opening those cards up). The whole tension that comes from the game is that whenever you chose a card, you're either opening up availability of a face-up card or potentially revealing a card they need...And the beauty of it is you don't have to. You can grab a card (that you don't value much) precisely because it doesn't open anything up, or you can take that risk because the card you're getting is something you really need.
You can't play this game solitaire style. You *have* to pay close attention to what your opponent is trying to do. That high level of interaction is why I vastly prefer it to the original 7 Wonders.
Calling this game "lucky" is the most baffling criticism I've heard.
@@adamg4912how is it not luck if the tactics you speak of are simply mathing out which cards you can select as a result of an entirely random dealing of the cards?
Can't disagree more. Really don't understand how more people don't see this game for what it is. I feel like people think it's a tactical game because they think tactics are taking a moment to interpret the reality of the card draw.
@@adamg4912 the scenario you've described isn't the full picture though is it. Many times I've played this game and it's come down to not opening up a great card for my opponent Vs revealing. Add in the guild cards you've gone for maybe or maybe not appearing....I dunno. Feel like one of you is arguing it's entirely lucky and the other of you is arguing it's entirely not unlucky, where as it's actually somewhere in between
Turns into a good game with Pantheon.
But don't give them ideas on a remake, then it'll turn into the cash grab they did with 7 wonders ruining any ability to get expansions.
I agree. It's a blind draft.
I remember when this game got raved about by the Dice Tower and several others. Bought it on sale, played it one time and… didn’t like it. Played it again and.. didn’t like it. It’s a point salad game with manufactured and not real tension. I say that because sometimes the way the cards are you simply cannot come back if somebody finds their angle.
I never liked this game, or it's big brother. I really don't know what the hype is all about.
It's a good game. But nowhere near as good as it's made out to be. Choices feel very limited and no amount of prior planning can mitigate against pure bad luck. Sometimes your opponent just high rolls the hell out of you.
Pantheon makes this good game a very good game. But even then I find the choices a bit too....obvious. But luck in both the cards you can grab and the guild cards that make their way into play is still too high foe me. And science and military aren't ever enough of a realistic enough incentive to diverge from the sensible, standard, normal, boring choices that you normally make.
7 wonders boring uninteractive tableu builder game where it always feels like your turn is just mostly obvious as to what the most efficient move is once you have chosen your path to victory. There is no space in boardgaming with so many games that do what they do betterrrrrrrr. Both 7 wonders and dual can go suck it and live with its boring cousin shitspan in a cupboard to gather dust for all eternity. (Unpopular Opinon) But do I care......no! C U allllllll Next Tuesday.
I guess you tried to mimic this reviewer's style in your comment but he actually does way better and more entertaining.
@@EvangelionPower im glad its him doing the reviews then! ........7 wonders still shit
So you claim other games do it better then fail to name them. 😂
@@drunken_physics No.
@@simonb9898 so you claim to do a stupid laugh icon but fail to ask in a basic way what games I think are better hahaha. my comment doesn't have to obey you're rules hahahahahaah But since you asked so nicely!!!!! Abyss, Maracaibo Roll and Race for the galaxy, Colony, Space base, Earth, Ark Nova and the list goes on and on and on