I just found this video. The driver in it is my late Dad Lindsay. He loved trains and being train driver. Made me smile to see him driving in the cab. Miss you Dad 💞
Hello Frances. I’m pleased that you found the video which captures your father as he was, especially when you were young. It is by far the best RUclips video dealing with the blue Harris trains and without his friendship it would be very much shorter. You may recall that I called in to see your father on a trip to Melbourne a few years ago, so it was quite a shock to hear a few months ago that he had left us. I’m sure you do miss him. Kind Regards, Richard.
I enjoyed watching your video. Remember travelling on these trains in the 70s and 80s while visiting Melbourne from Adelaide. Melbourne was great in those days. It has changed heaps and so has Adelaide.Miss all the old trams and trains in both cities. Thanks for posting this.
Thanks for your comment but open doors were not scary at all. In those days people knew how to hang on when near open doors and fend for themselves . We were not wrapped up in cotton wool then. Falls from open doors were rather rare occurrences.
It's all about responsibility. I'm only 19 years old, yet if we still had trains with open doors, I would know better than to do something ridiculous, and I know people who wouldn't do that who are younger than me. It's all about common sense. But because some people would harm themselves by doing something silly, over-the-top rules have to exist.
Well both in Berlin and Hamburg those old S-Bahn wagons it was possible to open the doors while the train was moving, everybody knows the unwritten rules not to stand directy in front of an open door, they did that to bring in fresh air during summer months.
The good bravery days. Yup,no cotton wool in THEM days! I remember vividly,as a kid, the first time I walked...alone,and very brave,from one carriage to another across a moving steel plate when both carriages seemed to move opposite each other. I was convinced that something was going to gobble my feet up! Yeah! the good old days
Those Harris trains, that sound, they break my heart. I loved them to bits that I even bought them as models for my 8 by 11 feet train set. The best, quietest trains ever made. I miss them. Thanks for posting a video of these memories, Tresstleg1. 🙂👌
Before I got this video ready for RUclips, I checked to see what else there was already about them on RUclips. I was amazed that there was only one video made up of photographs. I’m pleased I covered them so thoroughly, partly prompted by my friendly driver, Lindsay Adams.
Thank you again for these great footage of these trains and showing the driver view of Lindsey, he's a legend driving that train. I find any old footage when drivers let you record the trip there just legends and want to show what they do. With the braking on these harris trains, it's not like trains now when you push the leaver one way it brakes and the other way it releases the brakes? As Lindsey sometimes constantly pulled and push the lever for the train to stop
It was a chance meeting at St Kilda in the early 1980s which led to many years of friendship, and this remarkable video. Unfortunately we lost him a year or 2 ago but I did at least see him at home a year or 2 before that, retired of course. To get a smooth stop it is often necessary to vary the braking force as the train comes to a stop. Today’s trains by comparison are a lot less interesting.
This is by far the best in cab video available today of a old classic and drivers really had to work to get these train moving. Lindsey was a champ thank you sir. Did he mention how many years he was driving trains for?
Yes it is rather comprehensive but I discovered last night that somebody else did a tribute and used some scenes from my videos without asking. Not happy about that. Years of service was never discussed but there would be little doubt that he started with the railways as soon as he could after school. The total would have to be just a little short of 50 years I would think.
I (when ‹10yo) was always jealous of people on lines that had the lovely Harris trains, they were so much more modern than the old red rattlers we had on the St Kilda line at the time. In those beautiful VR colours, one of the world's greatest railway liveries IMHO.
Believe it or not I have a feeling the VR livery was perhaps in part 'plagiarized' from the US. On another matter, a Harris set at speed, so an express on say the Frankston line was fantastic. They had this presence on the track - not particularly smooth though but not harsh either. They moved around a lot at speed so what would be known as yaw in aviation, however this was the charm of them. They must've been fairly heavy because the sound of the wheels on the track joints was most agreeable particularly at speed and you could hear the bogies of the cars up front making the distinctive double sound and hear it getting closer then hear it behind if there were other carriages behind. They were a very attractive train inside and out. There was something about them. Seats were comfortable too. I don't miss them as much as Taits though. Taits were dreadful when I was 10 also, but as I got older so 14+ I started to sense their demise so I decided to make a point of riding them as much as possible. That I certainly did until I got my license but I lost my license (I had a V8) and so me and the Taits were reunited. After regaining my license I still often left the car at home just to ride a Tait. I loved them and still do. Miss them very much.
Lucky enough ride dogboxswig door and Tait but something about Harris think came out 56 Olympic Games had different pin stripping white went around windows to trains getting graffiti by 85so must just did that orange stripe even my Hornsby Harris trains got correct pinstripe white not yellow
St Kilda train to hear that stkida train station never new they converted them ,new that orange stripe came in After they were getting graffiti to much work do wonderful pinstripe that blue Harris had new
Thanks so much tresselteg for this video, and the others on Melbourne's old trains. Brings back so many memories of school days. Like most schoolboys, I was fascinated by the trains, and could tell all the old model variants apart. I heard once the old Harris sets were full of asbestos, not sure if that's true, but I've been amazed to see some of the old carriages still in use at Southern Cross for regional rail. Loved your Tait video too - they had such a distinctive sound, and I remember them being extremely bouncy. The doors were always left open in hot weather - guess what, no-one fell out - something of amazement to today's coddled society!
+Paul Biechmann Nice recollections there. Asbestos was a major factor, and it was not worth removing it. Traits certain could bounce (and rock and sway!) and some seats were very soft. Correct, nobody fell out.
One of my friends from work used to catch trains from Gowrie station on the upfield line when he was younger. Sometimes the train would be a blue and gold Harris train
These brought back memories. I recall when living in Ferntree Gully as a 5 year old in 1971 going into Flinders St. station once a week. I'd have a guess whether the train was going to be a "red rattler" or a "new blue".
I first visited Melbourne at Easter 1965 and stayed with former Sydney neighbours at Croydon. The ‘new Blues’ were rather thin on the ground. With all the whistle blowing along the way I thought my friends would have plenty of warning about my approach! All of Sydney had about 4 level crossings then :-)
I remember sitting at Bayswater with a New Silver train in the siding waiting to be taken to Newport or whereever to be fitted out, a red rattler going to Belgrave, and a few minutes later a Blue Harris coming from Belgrave. would have been early 1975ish, before I left to go to Darwin
I was probably on the train with you at some stage, I was born in Ferntree Gully and would have been 4 when you were 5. I also went to the city quite regularly that I remember, even at school, excursions to the city were always on the train.
What nostalgic memories! Riding these beauties from Moonee Ponds to Pascoe Vale to church on Sunday. And sometimes in to Flinders Street. It's great to see them again Thankyou!!!!
I really wish I had more but that is the lot. Hopefully somebody else will come forward with some more, but it seems very few of us were taking video in the later 1980s
+tressteleg1 Well, it's far better than the government gave us, they preffered to burn old carriges. So, a big thumbs up and your opinion please. I was 12 when my family left Melbourne for Adelaide (Jan 1976) Upon returning to Melbourne in the 80s I did a lot of playing with trains, I got back just in time to see the last Taits and wooden VR cars. Now, the acceleration of the Taits 9 and of course new trains, impressed me ( relative to Adelaide Red Hen DMUs) But the get up and go of the Harrises while faster than old DMUs, was nothing to get exited about. Is it something like lower gearing on Taits and what's their top speed ( i know publication after publication says 80 KM/H ( 50 MPH) but I suspect 90 ks would be easily obtainable, thus making them faster than the Hens in every way)) I have also heard of Fast Parcels vans being regually driven very hard/fast. Do you know anything about Sydney trains ? I have heard that U sets had weak field but the ( mechanicly compatable) last, red suburban sets built did not ? And,, oh how I wish I had a camera + endless rolls of film, back then. But photography was not cheap. CHEERS!
When I was 10 I went to Melbourne (from country Victoria)& remember being amazed at these beautiful trains (I caught one to see my first VFL match !!!thanx for memories
Thanks. I know what you mean. I first visited Melbourne from Sydney in 1965 and thought that they were rather smart looking trains, blue with the yellow strip, fluorescent lights, laminex interiors. All very nice.
Here in South Australia, we had diesel railcars " Red Hens", they also had manual doors which nearly always remained open in summer with the aide of one's foot at the bottom of the door to stop it sliding shut when the train was departing or arriving at a station. I don't remember anyone ever falling out of an open door but when the Red Hens were being replaced with the then new 2000 class diesel rail cars "Jumbos" doors were automatic open/close due to heating and air conditioning.
Wonderful to see the crossing-keeper in action: they were such cool characters, dedicated to keeping things running! I grew up and loved the Harris trains: so modern after the truly Victorian Taits. The Harris units disappeared all of a sudden though: I have since learned that they were loaded with asbestos, and had to be "got rid of" rather fast. Apparently some were "rehabilitated" and grace impoverished V line routes now as unpowered passenger coaches.
When trains had VR’s or guards. Stations had people, mum would ask the guard if us kids could travel in guard compartment and we always could, sometimes there be other passengers in there, and who can forget the “ ding ding toot” as the train lurched away
I used to stand in the open doorways of the Harris trains during summer, while travelling home from school. The carriages had zero airconditioning except for open windows & doors. Upon reflection it was a fairly risky thing to do, as they used to bounce about a fair bit! And the smell of their brakes was particularly rank!!! Great memories!!! @ 19:08 in the video ... seriously, i can remember the unique smell of the Harris train interiors - what a blast from the past!!!
I’m pleased that you like that video. No Australian suburban Trains had air conditioning in the 1950s when these trains first appeared. Also people knew how to behave near open doorways. I suspect that these trains had Ferrodo brake shoes while the Taits still had cast iron. That would be the smell you noticed.
Great catalogue of the Harris trains,a real workhorse,marvel at the lack of graffiti and rubbish in those days compared to the sad state of affairs today
I’m pleased that you enjoyed it. It’s surprising that there is little else on these rather impressive Trains on RUclips, or at least they were rather impressive when they first came out.
They were generations ahead of Taits and Swing Doors, the other trains then running. How they would stack up against today’s trains, I don’t know but a major drawback was they were underpowered, especially the later ones. Unfortunately it would be virtually impossible to recreate a 4 car set from the scraps still lying around.
To John Sergei. I grew up in Sydney so have limited interstate knowledge. There were at least 2 batches of Harris trains and the later ones (some of which were rehabilitated and painted grey) had weaker motors so were slower. Top speeds quoted are usually for level track. A roller-coaster track could increase this somewhat. There would be few electric trains which could not outperform diesel sets. Parcel vans could be faster with no trailer to haul. I unofficially drove U and other sets in Sydney in the past. I believe all Sydney electric trains had Weak Field but these were the first contactors (under the cars) to be removed when spare parts were needed for other trains.
I first visited Sydney Jan 1985 ( apart from a 1972 visit when I was 8, didn't go on trains but Sydney was full of double deck busses in 72 ( inc many old 1/2 cabs) Jan 85 I start playing trains in Sydney. No single deckers on Bondi line but probably 1/3 of trains in use on the rest of the system were single deckers or mixed. You also had red Tulloch 2decks in sets with silver painted Tulls & newer SS cars + a small scattering of single deck blue /white PTC livery mixed with the Indian reds ( obviously the last few in that livery & even shabbier the the rest of the motley fleet. Just like Melbourne & other cities round the world, no urban rail beuty then ( OK San Fan had BART) but if you wanted elegence, you got the Indian Pacific. How things have changed, mid 86 2nd trip to Sydney, no PTC livery cars and by my 3 visit mid 87 no Red Tulls in 2 story sets. After that Sydney trips were frequent & it soon became clear that that single deckers were gradually becoming less frequent. I never had a free run in the reds but I did in the U sets, many times, They could fly, window open at night and maxed out ( with their caracteristic for & aft lurching, seemed like 160 KM/H, ( though I know it was nothing like that speed really). If the last reds, the so called 1955 cars ( delivered 57-60) could go like the U sets - as they were mechanicly the same but with a slightly heavier body - then they would have been performers ? How time flies, now the V sets are the oldies, most Vs were new back then. The modern sparks can certainly fly, in recent Sydney trips, on Central Coast ups, the 2 to 4 track South of Meadowbank can be a slow point, then he's on the quad line, with a clear run, twice I have been on Oscars that have taken of like a motor car or modern tram, once they got the clear. Never had this sheer acceleration ( 40/50 to 100+ in seemingly seconds), in a V & any diesel would look like it's going backwards, even if it's on full throttle. Now, if an Oscer can take off like that I assume any modern electric could, CHEERS!
Nice reminiscences there John. I agree with you about the U sets having been similarly privileged a number of times. I feel that both Sydney and Melbourne first generation trains had a lot of Character even if the Taits and Swingdoors fell into the category of being so ugly you had to love them, and of course their control gear and also sounds were special too. By comparison today's trains are little more than functional boxes. If you have not ridden the first generation of Brisbane electric trains, you should do so soon. They sound like a Z class tram, but wind right the way out. Sound great. They are about to be replaced by stuff from India over the next couple of years, sadly.
Just one day in Brisbane EVER, 6 years ago . I saw what they call the Emu class but all sets going my way were newer trains. I hope to go to Brizzie on something related to the HST soon ( but like BR MK3 cars on HSTs, the XPT cars need opening windows in the doors ?). FF a few years & no more open windows at 200 KM/H, most HSTs will be gone & the remainder will have new plug doors. CHEERS!
Oh wow, that’s Lindsay from Aspendale! When my dad did an AFULE study of drivers’ conditions from about 1986-88, and interviewed hundreds of drivers, we were invited by Lindsay to his place, where he played videos of obscure railway, tramway, and aviation subjects. A real gentleman.
I liked the Harris trains .the seats were really comfortable. Yep .like everyone of the era, hanging out the doors on hot Melbourne days was great fun.i never heard of anyone falling out ..amazing
Cracking video, used to ride the Tait and Harris sets as a young country lad on school holidays in Melbourne. Was lucky to have many cab rides too as my Uncle's best mate and drinking pal who was a VR suburban driver! Classic bib & brace overalls were common part of the old yard and train running staff VR uniforms too in those days. Gatekeeper gets plenty of exercise on those manual gates too, would have made a "Hard earned thirst" commercial for VB! Melbourne wasn't a "graffiti dump" back then either. Thanks for the memories!
I remember seeing the Harris carriages being taken to the Clayton quicksand pits by lowloaders along centre road to be sunk in the quicksand pits at Clayton back in the early 1980’s when l worked at a hire Co. in oak Leigh south back in the day.
1985....I was around 7 yrs old back then. Never really caught pt when I was a kid so I don't recall the Harris trains. I grew up in East bentleigh so not far from where some of this footage was shot.
Nice to be able to show you something. I think we all regret the fact that things of interest disappeared before we were old enough to see or remember them. A railfan’s biggest mistake is to assume that ordinary things today will be around forever, so don’t bother recording them one way or another. Just look at how little there is of the Harris Trains which ran for 30 years!
I remember a mini diesel loco on display at spencer st .. it was beautiful like a big model. I worked at spencer st reconstruction and got to explore everything, tell you a secret , the subway is still there but we filled it with services and bulkheads, you can see the exit from docklands , just a doorway
I don’t recall seeing the model so I guess it went a long time ago. I’m not surprised the subway is still there. I’m not sure what was achieved by removing it, except for looks.
@@tressteleg1 80’s was there, same train as that yallourn train, it was the size of a small car but it was in blu,e Vic rail . Colour scheme. Was in a glass enclosure at top ramp inside the main area platform one, the subways (3) where removed as the new design was all about openness, single level, no dingy rain swept platforms etc. There was a major subway underneath platform 1 that ran lenghtway along the station that was filled with a liquid concrete mix, it 4 days to fill it up, the mix was like slurpee. The areas we wanted to save where bricked up to contain the mix. Then there was the passenger pedestrian subway that ran across to join all the platforms and exited in the middle of the platforms, that is now a services tunnel and is full of pipes and ducts and machinery, some areas you can barely fit past. The subway has an exit/entry at mayfield place, a small lane in Docklands. Then there is the subway that ran along the end of the platforms used by staff, often driving little tugs with trailers full of baggage. This subway is still there
Thanks for that extra interesting information. I’m not a Victorian so I’m not familiar with what the small rail vehicle on display was, but New South Wales did have some rail pay buses that would be described as about the same size as a motorcar. Maybe it was similar. The subways story is interesting. It seems like a lot of trouble filling up a tunnel with concrete. Quite amazing really. As for the finished station, it may not be open to the weather, but the stink and noise of diesel engines clunking over all the time is not particularly pleasant.
Considering the revolution in car design that they pioneered, it is a great pity that none were preserved. Rebuilding what is left would be very expensive
@@MichaelStevens-x1s While the Harris trains were quite luxurious in their day, I think most people will agree that Melbourne‘s most iconic trains were the Taits.
I can remember in the early 80's going to the football at the MCG with a couple of mates (all aged about 13 or so) and after the match at Richmond station there was a Frankston train departing which we ran to try and catch. Some kids had the door open and egged us on to run and jump in as the train had departed. I made it pretty easy having long legs but my mate was running flat chat and jumped in the door smack in to the metal pole that you see at 19:14 . He was ok, but nearly knocked himself out. Funny stuff. We used to go to the footy every week and it involved a lot of public transport as we lived at Rosebud on the Mornington Peninsula. We would still go to every game though, so trips took hours when you consider getting to the Western Oval, Windy Hill and all those grounds where you were lucky to survive opposition fans. I liked the old Harris trains, but I liked the Taits even more. They were run down and very noisy, but they had the most comfortable seats. I missed them when they were gone, as I did with the Harris. I wouldn't set foot in Melbourne these days even if I was offered money, but enjoy seeing Melbourne as it once was at it's best. Cheers, Austech
Your mate was rather lucky! Thanks for your account of your memories. Tait seats certainly were nice and soft. I am happy to go there each year to get more video for you guys to watch 😆 But I could not stand the long months of miserable cold weather living there. 7 years driving trams was long enough.
They never had regenerative braking, and they never had rheostatic braking, not even our silvers had regenerative braking, but the silvers (Hitachi) and Commeng trains had rheostatic braking. I often switched the rheo out on Hitach’s and run on air brake or tripped the rheostatic c/b out on the commeng’s and run with the air brake to keep up the skill.
Apparently some of the COMENG converted Harris cars were converted into rail inspection vehicles more recently so they are often used with diesel locomotives to inspect parts of the network! :)
That’s possible. Perhaps you could check it out and let us all know. Unfortunately apparently there are few power cars suitable for restoration and many vital parts are missing.
@@tressteleg1 It’s mainly IEV102 that seems to be a COMENG renovated Harris car that was converted into an overhead line inspection vehicle for use by Metro! :)
@@tressteleg1 The interior of IEV102 seems to have COMENG lighting fixtures which were most likely from the 1980s renovation or were installed more recently but the windows seem to match the windows on the COMENG renovated units. The centre doors were also seemingly removed more recently! :)
@@tressteleg1 I also just saw that there were Harris trains originally painted yellow and had only four doors on each car instead of six so it’s also possible that IEV102 was originally one of those units! :)
They probably were yellow in works service, but very unlikely in passenger service. I also have been doing research on the matter. Presumably the inspection car was a trailer, and probably a ne of the few with only 2 sets of doors. I also see that a couple of motors are shown as preserved, but from memory a few years ago somebody in ElecRail told me that restoration would be very expensive, as stated earlier. That overhead inspection car is likely to remain for some time to come.
I remember hot summer afternoons & you'd leave most of the doors open to get a lovely breeze through the carriage. Not many fences back then either, you could walk onto the tracks quite easily & so many level road crossings with those old white gates. I used to go up & down the St Kilda & Sandringham lines just to ride the ol' red rattlers as a kid.
One way to tell that a photo Ws taken in summer was to see if all the Tait doors were open. It’s good to see that you also appreciated the special charms of this ancient trains.
Looks like the Burnley sidings. I grew up in Loyola Grove Burnley during the 70s & 80s and wouldn't have lived anywhere else. There used to be sidings east of the station up until around the early 70s and west of the station at the rear of Pinnacle flour mills up until the mid 90s. There was also a station called 'Burnley Gardens' I believe just before the bridge over the freeway. The station was removed in the 1960s I think. I remember as a 3 or 4 year old seeing the old wooden bridge over the freeway and yarra before it was replaced with a new concrete bridge. Great period in Richmond's history.
I guess you are referring to the title photograph. I can’t really remember where that was taken, in fact it may be a photograph from a friend. As a visitor to Melbourne, I do vaguely recall the road and tramline bridge being built over the railway line at Burnley, but that’s about all I can remember from that area.
You just videod my depot with the L class going past it. I was with the Mechanical Signal Construction with the VR at that time. Another shot you took was looking at the roof top of the train, sadly that was the end of the Guard being on the Sparks. That being said what happens next is you get idiots Surfing on the roof of the train, regardless of the over head wire. ZAP and yes a few have died doing just that!!. THANKS FOR THE MEMORIES!!!!
Right place, right time it seems! Glad you enjoyed that bit. Unfortunately I have little sympathy for idiots who want to surf the roofs of trains. They don’t last too long in Brisbane as 25KV AC jumps much longer distances than 1500 V DC!
0:291:261:58 Why is there a random level crossing signal on display near the rail line? 6:18 McKenzie and Holland Teardrop bell! They (along with most other m-bells) have also pretty much been airbrushed from history too.
+TrickyMario7654 I really can't say but it does look a little like a signals branch depot so it could be there as a spare part or maybe some form of training. I'm not a Victorian so I cannot guess further. Sooner or later all the interesting old stuff gets scrapped, unfortunately.
I’m pretty certain that Jack said he was the first Australian train driver to be in charge of the Flying Scotsman. He had some interesting tales to tell about his encounter with the British guys who were travelling with the loco. Even if not officially allowed to drive, my guess is that Jack would certainly have let the visitors have the privilege of driving here and there. I think he said that the visitors were interested in some innovation in smoke boxes which had been developed and was in general use in Australia. I have a copy of a book produced in 1990 featuring Flying Scotsman on tour here in 1988/1999
There is an excellent docco from 1962 called All Manner of Trains. Shows some footage of the Harris manufacture. I remember a line from the film: "Their products must be built to the highest standard, as they will be subjected to arduous and widely varying use." It's on You Tube.
Last time I checked RUclips, there was sadly little else Harris to see apart from my video. Maybe if someone has some footage it will appear one day. And sadly Driver Lindsay Adams died a year or 2 ago after several years of retirement.
I saw your comment about the Harris mention on another video. Happy hunting. I’m fairly certain that I read that one or both M cars have had some of the wiring removed. Big job to fix that, with just a handful of volunteers.
I have a video in preparation which was taken at the Tait’s home in Newport. Outside I spotted an L class electric loco with a few other vehicles behind it in the distance. The last one is yellow, and I suspect it is a Harris but I did not notice this until I looked at the video afterwards.
The unfortunate thing about the Harris trains was that they were full of asbestos, used for heat and sound insulation. They were built just before the dangers of inhaled asbestos were made public; the asbestos health hazard was the main reason for their demise.
They could have been recycled. Instead they ended up mostly at the Clayton South landfills. Shame, I loved the Harris, they were the only trains that encouraged me to visit the city each weekend. They could have easily had the asbestos removed in a safe place and refitted with other harmless insulating material. Instead, they're buried them whole at Clayton, aluminium and all.
Only 16 cars were rebuilt. See Wikipedia. My memory was that it was just a few trains. It is a pity that they did not last. Drivers would not have been happy as the newest cars got the treatment, but these were the ones with the weakest motors so would have been hard pressed to stay on time.
I never saw a Harris on the Sandy line. I caught the train from Gardenvale to Brighton Beach for 3 years fron 1976 - '79 right in the era where 1x D and 2x Ms were replaced with 4x Ms in the train sets. I was enthralled to see this vid. I remember going to the Melbourne Show from Ormond station one year on a Harris. Why I remember this particular trip is my father normally who couldn't care less for me decided to take me to the Show. I can remember thinking WTF is going on here?? (I was scared he might leave me there lol) Anyhow, being hyper vigilant I noticed more than usual that day. The Harris we caught had high backed seating and looked to be leather. I wonder if you can shed any light on that? It may even have had a compartment with a large glass dividing window but I can't be sure just something in your vid caused a bell to ring. As well, since I'd became so accustomed to the Tait's riding qualities (which weren't all bad as a T in the middle of the carriage was often very good), I remember the authority the wheel sounds the Harris imparted in me. The ride was smooth in any seat of the train regardless of whether it was a T or an M. It seemed faster somehow.
A memorable ride no doubt! All the Harris trains were gone when I moved to Melbourne late 1987 - there were not a lot of them anyway. I didn’t often ride them and trams were the main focus of my attention as a visitor. While I can’t help you regarding seatbacks I do you recall that some carriages did have a compartment isolating about 1/3 of the carriage which was cut off from the rest of the carriage by a partition with windows. Each side of this partition had a long seat. And at this time, Harris carriages had no doors through to the next carriage. I can’t comment about the ride of the Harris trains, but you would expect some improvement over trains 40 or more years older.
"The Harris trains looked modern and attractive, inside and out, but have almost been airbrushed from history." The same thing has happened to the single deck electrics in Sydney and I bet it will happen to our S-sets too. Are there any Harris trains left in original condition as electrics or were all converted to loco hauled cars?
Virtually all the Harris cars are gone. A couple of motors that were used for overhead wire greasing apparently exist. Sydney Red single deck sets are in a much healthier state. A group is slowly but surely restoring them and a double deck trailer, as well as a W set and a U set.
There not quite gone. Today they exist in limited numbers as locomotive hauled carriages for vline. They can still be ridden daily on Vline runs to Bacchus Marsh. Now known as H sets. The H stands for Harris Cars.
Lots of Harris cars still running converted an upgraded to H set loco hauled interurban cars. With air con, carpets etc. Oldest cars still running. But for how much longer?
wow that refurbed Harris in the MET livery , i remember seeing that but never put two and two together, never even realized that it was a Harris, i guess the Tate and Hitachi eras over shadowed the Harris era, sweet video mate, i wish someone filmed the at the time mundane regional Vline freight like the swanhill oil trains and Warragul yard activity. 19:36 St Kilda train? kids these days" thats crazy talk" lol
The sad truth was that not many people rode the trains, even to St Kilda. As soon as the trams took over and went round to Acland Street, ridership skyrocketed. That was just months before I started conducting then driving those 2 lines. I saw the difference.
Theres still the greasers and original blue motor car and refurbished motor car at the Williamstown railway museum. The trailers were converted into v/line passenger carriages still seen today.
I remember riding these trains in the 70-80's. The sound of the Harris, how can I forget that? I liked having the door open in summer and feel the cool breeze and listen to the clanking of the wheels on the track. Such beautiful memories. Then they were replaced with the noisy silver trains, I forgot their names. I also saw the Harris Trains being transported to the local tips at South Clayton. I wondered why, so one day I rode my bicycle down Clayton Road, left into Frazer Road and right into Deal Road, there were several sand quarries that had been filled with tipping waste and stuff, and there I found several Harris cars dumped in the quarry being filled with household/industrial waste and useless soil. The site where these Harris cars were dumped is next to the Oakleigh Go-Kart Racing Club, under the light grey roofed building nearest to the Go-Kart track, Google Earth it. They dumped the Harris cars because of asbestos used in them. Tonnes of aluminium and steel that was used to build the Harris trains are buried there and elsewhere around Melbourne tips, and we know that all the aluminium is there, worth a fortune. Bad decision in dumping whole cars into the ground instead of stripping and recycling the aluminium. For years I cursed the ignorance of men because I had always felt that metals would be dissolved by ground water and flow down into underground tableland and exist in creeks whose water was used to irrigate the farms and vegetable gardens around Clayton South. Shame nobody has recovered all that $$$$$$$$ silver 'gold' sitting there. Melbourne Railways, why did you have to change? You had everything, manpower, jobs and better control.
Both sides of politics have their pet hates and likes. I believe that the trams, trains and tracks are owned by the Victorian government and it is up to them to decide what to repair or build. In Qld and SA the conservatives hate trams and will not fund extensions. In NSW Labor hates trams - they scrapped the previous system up to 1961.
The converted Harris cars were convered to Comeng style with aircon and similar seats but they cost nearly as much as a new Comeng car so only 16 were done. A driver complaint was they couldn’t sit close to the windscreen and so had a narrow view and were restricted to the Sandringham line where there were less level crossings.
Loved the video as i rode on the harris when i was a teenager from cheltenham to the city and if we were lucky we would get an old red rattler espically on a Saturday nite they had big seats to lie down on after a few and you could smoke on certian carriages and have the doors open but tbey were hot in summer ah the good old days
Although the Harris sets were normally 7 cars with a 4-car Block and a 3-car unit, a couple of trains seen here on the Sandringham line are M-T-T-M-BT-M making only 6 cars. At one stage there were a couple of 8 car Harris trains running on other lines as M-T-T-M-M-T-T-M.
Harris trains were not particularly powerful so it is possible they evened the Motor/Trailer ratio to help give them a bit better performance. Perhaps some Melbourne railfan can clarify that.
@@tressteleg1 As a Melbourne railfan who was also Electrical Foreman where they were maintained I can tell you that the first and second series cars were randomly mixed regardless of their different power outputs. The first series had 4 x 150kW motors per motor coach and the second series had 4 x 115kW motors per motor coach. The Sandringham line had very few gradients so power was not an issue. In fact some of the Tait sets used on this line had only 2 motor coaches in a 6 car set. The one set that was consistently kept together was the original set with motor coaches 501M, 502M, and 503M which was used to test modifications and finished it's days running with the full acceleration as it had when delivered.
I always enjoy reading the comments of maintenance men. Like you, they always have information that general fans can only guess at. I was friends with a driver named Lindsay Adams. I did a number of cab rides with him and even drives occasionally and he told me about the weak motors of Harris trains particularly on that big dip on the Glen Waverly line. Perhaps the big puzzle is why the much weaker motors were chosen for the later Harris trains. Perhaps somebody in administration decided to save money and even thought that somehow they could be kept on the flat lines which as you say, never happened. Running a 6 car Tait with just two motors must have had woeful acceleration. Melbourne speeds seem to have always been rather leisurely.
@@tressteleg1 No, the less powerful motors were fitted to the second series because of the excessive wheelslip on the first series causing motor damage through flash-overs. On the first series firstly they cut-out the weak field option to reduce the top speed of the motors, then they permanently set them for reduced acceleration. Around 1980 a successful wheelslip control was developed by VR engineers for these cars. It was so successful that the weak field was again able to be used on the cars when fitted, and on 501M, 502M & 503M only the original high acceleration was restored. In the video Lindsay manipulates the controller to try and give a smoother change from series to parallel, but most drivers simply put the controller handle straight round - which you could do. You can see the ammeter drop momentarily to zero at 10:16 as the change takes place, which always caused a jolt in these cars.
More fascinating insight. Thanks very much. Without wishing to start an argument, I think that driver training in Melbourne would have been the best solution. You may know that the original Sydney electric trains had only one power bogeie per motor car and each motor had 360 hp. These were prone to slip, much more so after Ferrodo brake shoes were introduced and especially on wet days. It was essential that drivers controlled driving acceleration in the manner you mentioned which presumably was staying in First Notch but going to the Series notch briefly then back to 1st notch till the train picked up speed a bit then a bit more series. Parallel was then chosen and the procedure repeated. Even in dry weather this was best practice to avoid uncontrolled wheelspin. I experienced driving these trains just a few times. The double deckers were four motor and much less like to spin except in wet weather. They had the wheel slipped detection which gave a jolting start as Power was cut as soon as slip was detected. I was told to use the above procedure starting those trains in the wet as well to give a much smoother start. But of course all of this is quite academic today with those trains gone and new technology being quite different. This sound only video you may enjoy. It is a wet day run with the driver accelerating carefully to avoid spin although once or twice he does lose it. Sounds Meadowbank to Hornsbyruclips.net/video/4DMbVGGNeMY/видео.html Sounds best with headphones or good stereo speakers.
+holden602001 Coming from Sydney at that time, I thought they looked quite modern with their fluorescent lights and laminex walls inside. Amazing that they disappeared so quickly and virtually completely.
@@tressteleg1 I think that was because of the asbestos. It's a bit before my time, but as I understand it the glue that held the asbestos in place had begun to deteriorate after 30-odd years of service and release the fibres. As such, the trains had to be pulled from service very quickly. Indeed, they were withdrawn before the replacement fleet was completely delivered, causing a fair few cancelled services.
Asbestos certainly had a lot to do with it, but you should also remember that the last Tait had run a couple of years earlier and Comeng trains were rolling off the assembly line. Harris Trains were the next for the scrappers. Whether they were withdrawn so hastily as to produce a rolling stock shortage, I don’t know.
Not all Harris trains contained asbestos, however even those which didn't left service very quickly, at least in some cases to be sunk in a swamp. It seems someone in the government didn't mind wasting huge amounts of money.
The handful of Harris trains that were refurbished were quite clear of asbestos after that. The newest Harris trains had weaker motors so were somewhat underpowered and when the rest were withdrawn, these were probably shunned for that reason and generally transport Drivers hate anything that is different from the vast majority of the fleet. Whether it was management or unions which saw the refurbished Harris trains quickly thrown aside is unknown.
I have no idea about the horns. And I can see no sign of your comment being repeated. That would be a matter for RUclips, not for me if there was any copy.
For those who don't know, the same coach bodies were used by the Toronto Transit Commission on their subway line from its 1954 opening til the mid 90s. We called them the Red Rockets. Cheers from Canada 🇨🇦
Interesting. I didn’t know that. Interesting in that yours were painted red, and thus Red Rockets. Melbourne’s were painted a rich blue, and mostly known as the “Blue Trains” (in a sea of ancient looking red trains).
Thanks heaps for uploading this, as someone who has been a regular commuter since moving to inner Melbourne in 2008 (and still trained fromthe Frankston when I lived on the peninsula), I've always wanted to see what St. Kilda & Port Melb were like pre light rail conversion. I know the TV Screen PID's have existed at least since the first city loop station opened in 1981 and I had wondered if they were used on the St. Kilda line (so the end of the vid answered my question). I'm amazed the same TV screens with the exact same typeface still exist at Box Hill station (and even if said TV screens aren't 35 years old, the technology is at least). tressteleg1 in your opinion, if the the circa mid 80's PTC & the State Gov't had the crystal ball to find out what the population & patronage of St. Kilda and Port Melbourne was going to be in 2016, would they have been better off leaving them as train lines for the sake of greater capacity per service, or do the advantages of greater frequency with light rail outweigh the disadvantages of less capacity? As someone who once lived on the Mornington side of the Peninsula, rather than the Stony Point side and both those lines closed in 81, but the latter reopened in 84, many probably would've said back in the day that the Mornington line was a white elephant. Nowadays the demand for PT, quite ironically, is greater on the Mornington side than it is on the Stony Point side (hence Mornington has Night Network bus services, but the Stony Point side is devoid of either bus or train NN services).
bozza03 A comment I recall at the time the Mornington line closed was that the rail motor took 30 minutes whereas a bus or taxi could get there in 10 minutes. The line was a big curve from Baxter and the Nepean Hwy was more direct. Some days the derm was replaced by a taxi which indicated how many riders there were. One day I waited at RM Stopping Place no. 16 with a bicycle only to see a taxi turn up so I had to ride back on the bike.
Brad Allen It’s a bit hilly if it branched off before Baxter. Apparently they tried to close the Mornington line in the sixties and there was a big outcry. The same people objected to the 1980s closure. I recall the race special with T388 that was trapped at the platform by protesters. It was on the News that night.
Brad Allen This was after the Lonie Report, the Mornington line and Healesville line closed on the same day, the government were busting to cut services, the Stony Point line was closed for a short time, Steve Crabb reinstated some services including the Stony Point and Cobram line, I forget which else.
I continue to be surprised that for a train type that existed for 30+ years, nobody else took videos of them. So it certainly is history as there are only a few cars still in existence with no plans to restore a train.
True, and the red trains in Sydney were equally exciting. I have a photo of 2 high school boys sitting right next to the open door. Quite normal. Something today’s kids will never enjoy.
I lived in Melbourne on and off in the late '70s and early '80s for short periods of times at Reservoir, Brunswick, and Sandringham. I remember the Harris trains and the Red Rattlers. I loved going to St Kilda on the Rattlers, the only reason to go to St Kilda was to ride on the Red Rattlers clearly to me they were my favorite and a very close second was the Blue sets of Harris cars, are there preserved Blue Harris cars? Thanks for posting your video I enjoyed it so much I watched it twice.
As a visitor, to me the Harris trains in 1965 were very modern with their fluorescent lights, Laminex lining, and attractive blue colour with the cream stripe. The Taits are so ugly you had to love them, while their sounds were quite enchanting. Today’s trains are modern, maybe more comfortable but only make weird noises and don’t particularly have any character as far as I am concerned. Check Google but I gather that just a couple of Harris motors survive, former wire greasing trains. Plus the VLine trailers.
@@tressteleg1 there are two at the railway museum in Newport, one refurbished and one original (without absestos and I believe with automatic doors installed from new).
From what I have heard, the few Harris cars at Williamstown are in poor condition and a lot of electrical equipment has been stripped from them. This makes them essentially unrestorable to operating condition but if you are in Melbourne, you can check with the museum much more easily than me.
I have deleted nothing from Melbourne. If you can’t see the video you remember below, then it is unlikely to have been mine. Victorian Trains Lineside ruclips.net/p/PLLtOIHp49XNA_mVsCrep-VpCUqsId9Fxu
My memories of the inside of Harris trains is very faint. Funnily enough I know I definitely rode on them. I can remember waiting to get on them and have memories of them approaching the platform.
+Cameron Whyte It's close to a disgrace that just about all have been airbrushed out of history as though they never existed. Recently I found a little more video of them as seen from a bridge. A parcel van also goes past. I will post it in a few weeks. No indoor shots though.
I don't think I ever saw a Harris on the Sandy line. What year (give or take) was this? Hold that I'll guess 1988 by the cars. How did I do? edit: I saw Lindsay 1985 LOL. 6 and 7 car Harris sets on the Sandy line ffar out. Until I saw this vid I never saw a 6 car Harris set at all - ever! They were nearly all 7. Seeing a 6 car set on the Sandy line didn't surprise me that much because it was the line that got the dregs of the systems rolling stock but seeing both 6 and 7 car sets is surprising.
Not sure if this is right or not but didn't some old Melbourne trains end up as an underwater reef or something? Was this just talk or did I imagine it? Perhaps someone knows.I was just curious. Watching this video got me to thinking back to those days when I used to be a regular visitor to Melbourne.
Unfortunately newer trams and trains seem to lack character found in earlier trains, but I suppose they are better trains for the public to ride. As far as I know many of the scrapped Harris cars were wrapped in plastic and dumped in a quarry at ?Clayton. Others are still VLine trailers.
From memory, there was a variety of disk symbols and each indicated to the signal box men just what line the train was going to. You should find more on Google.
This explanation by the Taitset channel was very welcome to me : ruclips.net/video/qv4NOSftrvg/видео.html I expect others will too. Lots of good content on his channel of content that he has filmed in the last 20 years. He was not born early enough to film the historic welcome content on this channel.
At St Kilda station, I asked the guy manning the barrier the purpose of the little brass wheel above his head, he turned it and the hands of the large clockface at the street end of the platorm moved it’s hands. It was for setting the next train departure time.
The old clocks showing departure times for the next trains on the various lines which are above the steps at Flinders Street station would have been operated in a similar manner until they were mechanised a number of years ago.
Bang on Neil Forbes. A lot of footage shot with i phones is fine,but,for really good detail ya can't beat the real thing ..yep,a good old video camera!
It was a Panasonic State of the Art VHS video camera using full size VCR tapes. iPhones were about 25 years into the future, long after the last Harris ran.
The poor Harris trains, condemned because of their asbestos content, so I believe. I liked them. They looked good in their blue and yellow, were airy and spacious with comfy seats and had a comfortable ride. They were much more pleasant to travel in than the 'hot box' Hitachi trains with their dreadful seats. I see that your camera technique has improved since the 80's :-)
The asbestos in the Harris Trains was a major reason for their withdrawal. It was removed from the few rebuilds, recognised by their grey paint. I first visited from Sydney in 1965 and then thought they looked rather modern. It is a pity that it is almost impossible to rebuild even just 4 cars now.
Always enjoy your videos when I first came to Melbourne I always hoped it would be a blu train not the rattler. Looking back though outside of peak the rattlers were probably one of the most comfortablre tains to travel in. Now a little nitpic the locomotive at the beginning would not have been coming from Yallourn passenger services were discontinued way back there was a bus connection to Moe station. My guess would be being four carriages it came up from Bairnsdale.
The Taits did have nice soft seats. As for the origin of the loco hauled train, my geography of that region has always been weak and I just guessed. I can’t have been wrong by more than a handful of km.
@@tressteleg1 About 120 ks or more the train from Bairnsdale used to be called The Gippslander and it was a wonderful new train with two seats either side of the aisle the old red carriages were in most cases compartments to seat eight
Well I do know that the electric loco did not come all the way from Bairnsdale even if the carriages did. I also know that Bairnsdale was closed but that was probably after 1986 and more devastation by ££#$@%*$ Kennett. At least it was reopened a few years ago.
@@tressteleg1 It was electrified from Moe onwards if I remember rightly I mean it was the area where elctricity was produced. Kennett really did devastate public transport when Labor got in they reopened the line and the other two were supposed to follow but never have at least the tracks to Leongatha are still there so they can extend to Cranbourne South
Kennett’s only care about public transport was cutting its cost by any means, no doubt believing that his voters never use it anyway. Probably Bairnsdale is the most important of the lines to reopen anyway. Time will tell if extension to Cranbourne South is warranted.
A lot of the trailers were modified and are still hauled behind V line locomotives. Just about all the power cars have been scrapped and the few left which were used for a while on works duties apparently would be extremely expensive to restore. Because of asbestos content, quite a few were wrapped in plastic and dumped in the brickworks quarry at Clayton, I think it was.
The only thing I didn't like running the Harris trains as a Guard was they used to "back trip" a lot when you went through the underground loop. Because the track was bi-directional there were home signals facing in opposite directions on both sides of the track and every now and then (quite often actually) the little trip lever underneath the drivers cabin would hit the trip arm on the home signal on the other side of the track and we would lose air. The Guard would have to climb out and reset the trip lever by giving it a belt with the switch stick. On one occasion, I reset the trip lever and the air came up very quickly and the driver started moving off before I was back in the Guards van. Luckily we were only about 200 metres from the platform so I had to jog down to catch up with the train. There were no power doors on the Harris trains so no one even knew until I told the driver when were changing ends later on. It only ever happened to me on the Harris trains, must have been a design thing.
I’m not familiar enough with Melbourne trains to know the finer details, but I thought that the unwanted trip arms, like those on car 4, could be clipped up out of the way. Certainly having to get out to reset it is not good.
I've never seen the inside fo an Harris Trains! I came to Australia in 1999, but up untill now I only seen red rattler trains (ie the inside)... Also if you hadn't said it was refurbished Harris I would have thought it was an Hitachi one!
@@icascone Well that is news to me, and I am a Steamrail member to stay up to date with Elecrail events. In fact there will be a video before too long showing Tait restorations at Newport. Harris trains in their day looked smart in blue with the yellow ‘moustache’ and had modern features inside, so I asked my administrative contact there about Harris trains and apparently there is a car or two from the wire greasing train still existing, while many trailers are still hauled around by VLine. However to get even a 4 car set back to passenger standard would take squillions of $$$ which simply don’t exist. Elecrail also has a Hitachi train stored somewhere outdoors for preservation but it is constantly getting vandalised and with no indoor storage is likely to just rot away.
As a young man on my first visit to Melbourne in 1965, I thought the Harris Trains looked rather smart and modern with their fluorescent lights (only introduced to Sydney with doubledeck trailers in 1964) and their Laminex interior wall linings. The blue paint was also attractive. The great pity is that not one four car set was saved even if at great expense the remaining cars could be rebuilt into a set.
Originally, no trains had self-closing doors. It was up to the passengers simply not to fall out which they managed with quite good efficiency. Not that it happened often, but foolish behaviour was probably behind most of it. The more that rules are made up to protect people from their own stupidity, the less care they take for themselves.
Trams then Trains in Sydney caught my attention around 1950 when I was five. I was a Melbourne tram driver for six years but also had some unofficial train drives, just a few being recorded. Sly Drives of Electric Trains. Melbourne, Sydney, London. ruclips.net/video/dR8gZ9tJeyI/видео.html
One of my earliest memories of travelling on the blue Harris trains was someone vomiting out an open door and seeing it fly past the next open door where I was, disgusted though thankfully I don’t recall the smell, I don’t think they had automatic door then. This was in the early 80s just before they were withdrawn from service.
Mmm.....not sure that L-class came from Yallourn. Except for special trains, like school or social club trips, for example, it only handled goods (briquettes?) not passengers. At least by the early 1970s, I seem to recall. I loved the sound of those L-class coming into the Moe station. BTW, some Harris class carriages have been refurbished and are used by V-Line.
Kelvin H I should have written Traralgon instead if Yallourn but otherwise L class did regularly haul passenger trains, as seen in this video. This comes from a friend who is a long-time Melbourne rail fan. “I remember travelling on The Gippslander service many times with an L on the front as far as Traralgon (end of the wire) then being replaced by a B-class or even an X-class diesel-electric loco to continue east. Conversely, an L would replace a diesel from Traralgon heading west.”
@@reidgck Wonderful! Thank-you for the link. When I used to commute to Melbourne, and not far out out of Morwell I could see a railway crossing sign close to where the spur line would have joined the main Gippsland line. Sad sight.
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I just found this video. The driver in it is my late Dad Lindsay. He loved trains and being train driver. Made me smile to see him driving in the cab. Miss you Dad 💞
Hello Frances. I’m pleased that you found the video which captures your father as he was, especially when you were young. It is by far the best RUclips video dealing with the blue Harris trains and without his friendship it would be very much shorter.
You may recall that I called in to see your father on a trip to Melbourne a few years ago, so it was quite a shock to hear a few months ago that he had left us. I’m sure you do miss him. Kind Regards, Richard.
I enjoyed watching your video. Remember travelling on these trains in the 70s and 80s while visiting Melbourne from Adelaide. Melbourne was great in those days. It has changed heaps and so has Adelaide.Miss all the old trams and trains in both cities. Thanks for posting this.
Thanks for your comment but open doors were not scary at all. In those days people knew how to hang on when near open doors and fend for themselves . We were not wrapped up in cotton wool then. Falls from open doors were rather rare occurrences.
It's all about responsibility. I'm only 19 years old, yet if we still had trains with open doors, I would know better than to do something ridiculous, and I know people who wouldn't do that who are younger than me. It's all about common sense. But because some people would harm themselves by doing something silly, over-the-top rules have to exist.
Yep, used to love standing at the open doors - as a child with Dad. Still here to tell the tale.
Well both in Berlin and Hamburg those old S-Bahn wagons it was possible to open the doors while the train was moving, everybody knows the unwritten rules not to stand directy in front of an open door, they did that to bring in fresh air during summer months.
Thought nothing of it back then. I remember sitting by the open door in the red rattlers on the williamstown line as a kid
The good bravery days. Yup,no cotton wool in THEM days! I remember vividly,as a kid, the first time I walked...alone,and very brave,from one carriage to another across a moving steel plate when both carriages seemed to move opposite each other. I was convinced that something was going to gobble my feet up! Yeah! the good old days
Those Harris trains, that sound, they break my heart. I loved them to bits that I even bought them as models for my 8 by 11 feet train set. The best, quietest trains ever made. I miss them. Thanks for posting a video of these memories, Tresstleg1. 🙂👌
hi tressteleg1, Thank you for recording this. It is really significant. I wish other people recorded Harris trains but I guess not.
Before I got this video ready for RUclips, I checked to see what else there was already about them on RUclips. I was amazed that there was only one video made up of photographs. I’m pleased I covered them so thoroughly, partly prompted by my friendly driver, Lindsay Adams.
@@tressteleg1 very awesome
👍
Thank you again for these great footage of these trains and showing the driver view of Lindsey, he's a legend driving that train.
I find any old footage when drivers let you record the trip there just legends and want to show what they do.
With the braking on these harris trains, it's not like trains now when you push the leaver one way it brakes and the other way it releases the brakes? As Lindsey sometimes constantly pulled and push the lever for the train to stop
It was a chance meeting at St Kilda in the early 1980s which led to many years of friendship, and this remarkable video. Unfortunately we lost him a year or 2 ago but I did at least see him at home a year or 2 before that, retired of course.
To get a smooth stop it is often necessary to vary the braking force as the train comes to a stop. Today’s trains by comparison are a lot less interesting.
This is by far the best in cab video available today of a old classic and drivers really had to work to get these train moving.
Lindsey was a champ thank you sir. Did he mention how many years he was driving trains for?
Yes it is rather comprehensive but I discovered last night that somebody else did a tribute and used some scenes from my videos without asking. Not happy about that.
Years of service was never discussed but there would be little doubt that he started with the railways as soon as he could after school. The total would have to be just a little short of 50 years I would think.
This is brilliant footage! Thank you for sharing a piece of train history...❤️ ahhh...the good old days
Thanks 😊. It seems that few others captured Harris trains.
I (when ‹10yo) was always jealous of people on lines that had the lovely Harris trains, they were so much more modern than the old red rattlers we had on the St Kilda line at the time. In those beautiful VR colours, one of the world's greatest railway liveries IMHO.
I won’t disagree with any of that even though I was a Sydney dweller at the time.
Grew up on the Sandy line. We thought “Blue Trains” were from another world.
Believe it or not I have a feeling the VR livery was perhaps in part 'plagiarized' from the US.
On another matter, a Harris set at speed, so an express on say the Frankston line was fantastic. They had this presence on the track - not particularly smooth though but not harsh either. They moved around a lot at speed so what would be known as yaw in aviation, however this was the charm of them. They must've been fairly heavy because the sound of the wheels on the track joints was most agreeable particularly at speed and you could hear the bogies of the cars up front making the distinctive double sound and hear it getting closer then hear it behind if there were other carriages behind. They were a very attractive train inside and out. There was something about them. Seats were comfortable too.
I don't miss them as much as Taits though. Taits were dreadful when I was 10 also, but as I got older so 14+ I started to sense their demise so I decided to make a point of riding them as much as possible. That I certainly did until I got my license but I lost my license (I had a V8) and so me and the Taits were reunited. After regaining my license I still often left the car at home just to ride a Tait. I loved them and still do. Miss them very much.
Lucky enough ride dogboxswig door and Tait but something about Harris think came out 56 Olympic Games had different pin stripping white went around windows to trains getting graffiti by 85so must just did that orange stripe even my Hornsby Harris trains got correct pinstripe white not yellow
St Kilda train to hear that stkida train station never new they converted them ,new that orange stripe came in After they were getting graffiti to much work do wonderful pinstripe that blue Harris had new
Great! Thanks for preserving history.
Thanks so much tresselteg for this video, and the others on Melbourne's old trains. Brings back so many memories of school days. Like most schoolboys, I was fascinated by the trains, and could tell all the old model variants apart. I heard once the old Harris sets were full of asbestos, not sure if that's true, but I've been amazed to see some of the old carriages still in use at Southern Cross for regional rail. Loved your Tait video too - they had such a distinctive sound, and I remember them being extremely bouncy. The doors were always left open in hot weather - guess what, no-one fell out - something of amazement to today's coddled society!
+Paul Biechmann
Nice recollections there. Asbestos was a major factor, and it was not worth removing it. Traits certain could bounce (and rock and sway!) and some seats were very soft. Correct, nobody fell out.
These I remember as the trains on the Upfield line when i was a kid, I remember them being quite loud in the city loop.
😊
One of my friends from work used to catch trains from Gowrie station on the upfield line when he was younger. Sometimes the train would be a blue and gold Harris train
They were especially nice trains in their day.
These brought back memories. I recall when living in Ferntree Gully as a 5 year old in 1971 going into Flinders St. station once a week. I'd have a guess whether the train was going to be a "red rattler" or a "new blue".
I first visited Melbourne at Easter 1965 and stayed with former Sydney neighbours at Croydon. The ‘new Blues’ were rather thin on the ground. With all the whistle blowing along the way I thought my friends would have plenty of warning about my approach! All of Sydney had about 4 level crossings then :-)
I remember sitting at Bayswater with a New Silver train in the siding waiting to be taken to Newport or whereever to be fitted out, a red rattler going to Belgrave, and a few minutes later a Blue Harris coming from Belgrave. would have been early 1975ish, before I left to go to Darwin
😊👍
I was probably on the train with you at some stage, I was born in Ferntree Gully and would have been 4 when you were 5. I also went to the city quite regularly that I remember, even at school, excursions to the city were always on the train.
I am the same age I lived in Chelsea and I went to Frankston with my mum. I used to guess too
Basic old trains when life was still relatively slow pace. great upload thanks for the memories.🚂🚎🚎
What nostalgic memories! Riding these beauties from Moonee Ponds to Pascoe Vale to church on Sunday.
And sometimes in to Flinders Street. It's great to see them again Thankyou!!!!
Yes they were good. It’s a pity none were saved.
I really wish I had more but that is the lot. Hopefully somebody else will come forward with some more, but it seems very few of us were taking video in the later 1980s
+tressteleg1 Well, it's far better than the government gave us, they preffered to burn old carriges.
So, a big thumbs up and your opinion please.
I was 12 when my family left Melbourne for Adelaide (Jan 1976) Upon returning to Melbourne in the 80s I did a lot of playing with trains, I got back just in time to see the last Taits and wooden VR cars.
Now, the acceleration of the Taits 9 and of course new trains, impressed me ( relative to Adelaide Red Hen DMUs) But the get up and go of the Harrises while faster than old DMUs, was nothing to get exited about.
Is it something like lower gearing on Taits and what's their top speed ( i know publication after publication says 80 KM/H ( 50 MPH) but I suspect 90 ks would be easily obtainable, thus making them faster than the Hens in every way))
I have also heard of Fast Parcels vans being regually driven very hard/fast.
Do you know anything about Sydney trains ? I have heard that U sets had weak field but the ( mechanicly compatable) last, red suburban sets built did not ?
And,, oh how I wish I had a camera + endless rolls of film, back then. But photography was not cheap.
CHEERS!
Woah! It’s so cool to see the old Harris trains!
Aspect1 Yep. It’s nice to have some cool stuff which nobody else recorded 😊
Great to see a glimpse of Mordialloc station back then. I grew up nearby in the '80s. Thanks.
When I was 10 I went to Melbourne (from country Victoria)& remember being amazed at these beautiful trains (I caught one to see my first VFL match !!!thanx for memories
Thanks. I know what you mean. I first visited Melbourne from Sydney in 1965 and thought that they were rather smart looking trains, blue with the yellow strip, fluorescent lights, laminex interiors. All very nice.
Here in South Australia, we had diesel railcars " Red Hens", they also had manual doors which nearly always remained open in summer with the aide of one's foot at the bottom of the door to stop it sliding shut when the train was departing or arriving at a station. I don't remember anyone ever falling out of an open door but when the Red Hens were being replaced with the then new 2000 class diesel rail cars "Jumbos" doors were automatic open/close due to heating and air conditioning.
Everything in earlier days had manual doors. You could always tell a photo of a Tait taken on a hot day in Melbourne. All the doors are wide open!
Wonderful to see the crossing-keeper in action: they were such cool characters, dedicated to keeping things running!
I grew up and loved the Harris trains: so modern after the truly Victorian Taits. The Harris units disappeared all of a sudden though: I have since learned that they were loaded with asbestos, and had to be "got rid of" rather fast. Apparently some were "rehabilitated" and grace impoverished V line routes now as unpowered passenger coaches.
I think a Harris motor car is also still used for Overhead Inspection, hauled by SSR owned T class diesels
When trains had VR’s or guards. Stations had people, mum would ask the guard if us kids could travel in guard compartment and we always could, sometimes there be other passengers in there, and who can forget the “ ding ding toot” as the train lurched away
😊👍
I used to stand in the open doorways of the Harris trains during summer, while travelling home from school. The carriages had zero airconditioning except for open windows & doors. Upon reflection it was a fairly risky thing to do, as they used to bounce about a fair bit! And the smell of their brakes was particularly rank!!! Great memories!!!
@ 19:08 in the video ... seriously, i can remember the unique smell of the Harris train interiors - what a blast from the past!!!
I’m pleased that you like that video. No Australian suburban Trains had air conditioning in the 1950s when these trains first appeared. Also people knew how to behave near open doorways. I suspect that these trains had Ferrodo brake shoes while the Taits still had cast iron. That would be the smell you noticed.
Great video!! Especially loved the cab ride section
Great catalogue of the Harris trains,a real workhorse,marvel at the lack of graffiti and rubbish in those days compared to the sad state of affairs today
I’m pleased that you enjoyed it. It’s surprising that there is little else on these rather impressive Trains on RUclips, or at least they were rather impressive when they first came out.
I rode the Sandringham line many times as a kid, going to the footy every weekend. Also the Frankston line, Dandenong line, Port and St kilda lines.
😊👍
I never got to be on a harris train, but I've heard that they were the smoothest and quietest trains on the metro.
They were generations ahead of Taits and Swing Doors, the other trains then running. How they would stack up against today’s trains, I don’t know but a major drawback was they were underpowered, especially the later ones. Unfortunately it would be virtually impossible to recreate a 4 car set from the scraps still lying around.
Not as smooth and quiet as the Comengs but they were nice. Eventually they acquired electric doors.
They rocked around quite a bit I remember.
To John Sergei. I grew up in Sydney so have limited interstate knowledge. There were at least 2 batches of Harris trains and the later ones (some of which were rehabilitated and painted grey) had weaker motors so were slower.
Top speeds quoted are usually for level track. A roller-coaster track could increase this somewhat. There would be few electric trains which could not outperform diesel sets. Parcel vans could be faster with no trailer to haul. I unofficially drove U and other sets in Sydney in the past. I believe all Sydney electric trains had Weak Field but these were the first contactors (under the cars) to be removed when spare parts were needed for other trains.
I first visited Sydney Jan 1985 ( apart from a 1972 visit when I was 8, didn't go on trains but Sydney was full of double deck busses in 72 ( inc many old 1/2 cabs)
Jan 85 I start playing trains in Sydney. No single deckers on Bondi line but probably 1/3 of trains in use on the rest of the system were single deckers or mixed. You also had red Tulloch 2decks in sets with silver painted Tulls & newer SS cars + a small scattering of single deck blue /white PTC livery mixed with the Indian reds ( obviously the last few in that livery & even shabbier the the rest of the motley fleet. Just like Melbourne & other cities round the world, no urban rail beuty then ( OK San Fan had BART) but if you wanted elegence, you got the Indian Pacific.
How things have changed, mid 86 2nd trip to Sydney, no PTC livery cars and by my 3 visit mid 87 no Red Tulls in 2 story sets. After that Sydney trips were frequent & it soon became clear that that single deckers were gradually becoming less frequent.
I never had a free run in the reds but I did in the U sets, many times, They could fly, window open at night and maxed out ( with their caracteristic for & aft lurching, seemed like 160 KM/H, ( though I know it was nothing like that speed really).
If the last reds, the so called 1955 cars ( delivered 57-60) could go like the U sets - as they were mechanicly the same but with a slightly heavier body - then they would have been performers ?
How time flies, now the V sets are the oldies, most Vs were new back then.
The modern sparks can certainly fly, in recent Sydney trips, on Central Coast ups, the 2 to 4 track South of Meadowbank can be a slow point, then he's on the quad line, with a clear run, twice I have been on Oscars that have taken of like a motor car or modern tram, once they got the clear. Never had this sheer acceleration ( 40/50 to 100+ in seemingly seconds), in a V & any diesel would look like it's going backwards, even if it's on full throttle.
Now, if an Oscer can take off like that I assume any modern electric could,
CHEERS!
Nice reminiscences there John. I agree with you about the U sets having been similarly privileged a number of times. I feel that both Sydney and Melbourne first generation trains had a lot of Character even if the Taits and Swingdoors fell into the category of being so ugly you had to love them, and of course their control gear and also sounds were special too.
By comparison today's trains are little more than functional boxes.
If you have not ridden the first generation of Brisbane electric trains, you should do so soon. They sound like a Z class tram, but wind right the way out. Sound great. They are about to be replaced by stuff from India over the next couple of years, sadly.
Just one day in Brisbane EVER, 6 years ago . I saw what they call the Emu class but all sets going my way were newer trains. I hope to go to Brizzie on something related to the HST soon ( but like BR MK3 cars on HSTs, the XPT cars need opening windows in the doors ?).
FF a few years & no more open windows at 200 KM/H, most HSTs will be gone & the remainder will have new plug doors.
CHEERS!
That was the Melbourne I knew. Long gone now.
Don’t miss my more recent ‘Taits, Harris Trains and Parcel Vans’ video.
Oh wow, that’s Lindsay from Aspendale! When my dad did an AFULE study of drivers’ conditions from about 1986-88, and interviewed hundreds of drivers, we were invited by Lindsay to his place, where he played videos of obscure railway, tramway, and aviation subjects. A real gentleman.
Yes, Lindsay was a legend. Did you know he left us a couple of months ago? Sad news.
3:16 why is the door open
Harris doors were closed by the passengers, so if nobody bothered to shut the doors, they stayed open, just like the Taits.
I liked the Harris trains .the seats were really comfortable. Yep .like everyone of the era, hanging out the doors on hot Melbourne days was great fun.i never heard of anyone falling out ..amazing
Exactly. I visited from Sydney and always thought they looked smart and modern.
Cracking video, used to ride the Tait and Harris sets as a young country lad on school holidays in Melbourne. Was lucky to have many cab rides too as my Uncle's best mate and drinking pal who was a VR suburban driver! Classic bib & brace overalls were common part of the old yard and train running staff VR uniforms too in those days. Gatekeeper gets plenty of exercise on those manual gates too, would have made a "Hard earned thirst" commercial for VB! Melbourne wasn't a "graffiti dump" back then either. Thanks for the memories!
Thanks. Much easier-going days then.
PLEASE YOU MUST HAVE MORE FOOTAGE
I remember seeing the Harris carriages being taken to the Clayton quicksand pits by lowloaders along centre road to be sunk in the quicksand pits at Clayton back in the early 1980’s when l worked at a hire Co. in oak Leigh south back in the day.
James Govett Yes, that is what happened to many. Unfortunately it would cost millions to try to restore just a 4 car train.
1985....I was around 7 yrs old back then. Never really caught pt when I was a kid so I don't recall the Harris trains. I grew up in East bentleigh so not far from where some of this footage was shot.
Nice to be able to show you something. I think we all regret the fact that things of interest disappeared before we were old enough to see or remember them. A railfan’s biggest mistake is to assume that ordinary things today will be around forever, so don’t bother recording them one way or another. Just look at how little there is of the Harris Trains which ran for 30 years!
I actually remember the smell of these trains. I'm guessing it was the brake pads. Ah the memories.
Yes they were probably the first Melbourne trains to get Ferodo brake shoes which were not made of metal.
I remember a mini diesel loco on display at spencer st .. it was beautiful like a big model. I worked at spencer st reconstruction and got to explore everything, tell you a secret , the subway is still there but we filled it with services and bulkheads, you can see the exit from docklands , just a doorway
I don’t recall seeing the model so I guess it went a long time ago. I’m not surprised the subway is still there. I’m not sure what was achieved by removing it, except for looks.
@@tressteleg1 80’s was there, same train as that yallourn train, it was the size of a small car but it was in blu,e Vic rail . Colour scheme. Was in a glass enclosure at top ramp inside the main area platform one, the subways (3) where removed as the new design was all about openness, single level, no dingy rain swept platforms etc. There was a major subway underneath platform 1 that ran lenghtway along the station that was filled with a liquid concrete mix, it 4 days to fill it up, the mix was like slurpee. The areas we wanted to save where bricked up to contain the mix. Then there was the passenger pedestrian subway that ran across to join all the platforms and exited in the middle of the platforms, that is now a services tunnel and is full of pipes and ducts and machinery, some areas you can barely fit past. The subway has an exit/entry at mayfield place, a small lane in Docklands. Then there is the subway that ran along the end of the platforms used by staff, often driving little tugs with trailers full of baggage. This subway is still there
Thanks for that extra interesting information. I’m not a Victorian so I’m not familiar with what the small rail vehicle on display was, but New South Wales did have some rail pay buses that would be described as about the same size as a motorcar. Maybe it was similar. The subways story is interesting. It seems like a lot of trouble filling up a tunnel with concrete. Quite amazing really.
As for the finished station, it may not be open to the weather, but the stink and noise of diesel engines clunking over all the time is not particularly pleasant.
@@tressteleg1 no, was a model the size of a small car, of a diesel loco same as the loco at start of this video ..
Being a model is a big difference. As the video says, it is an L class electric loco, scrapped around 1990.
My favourite train ❤ was always happy to see a Harris coming into the station such a shame more wasn’t done to preserve a few more examples 😢
Considering the revolution in car design that they pioneered, it is a great pity that none were preserved. Rebuilding what is left would be very expensive
Love the old Harris trains Most iconic in Melbourne's history ❤
@@MichaelStevens-x1s While the Harris trains were quite luxurious in their day, I think most people will agree that Melbourne‘s most iconic trains were the Taits.
I can remember in the early 80's going to the football at the MCG with a couple of mates (all aged about 13 or so) and after the match at Richmond station there was a Frankston train departing which we ran to try and catch. Some kids had the door open and egged us on to run and jump in as the train had departed. I made it pretty easy having long legs but my mate was running flat chat and jumped in the door smack in to the metal pole that you see at 19:14 . He was ok, but nearly knocked himself out. Funny stuff.
We used to go to the footy every week and it involved a lot of public transport as we lived at Rosebud on the Mornington Peninsula. We would still go to every game though, so trips took hours when you consider getting to the Western Oval, Windy Hill and all those grounds where you were lucky to survive opposition fans.
I liked the old Harris trains, but I liked the Taits even more. They were run down and very noisy, but they had the most comfortable seats. I missed them when they were gone, as I did with the Harris. I wouldn't set foot in Melbourne these days even if I was offered money, but enjoy seeing Melbourne as it once was at it's best. Cheers, Austech
Your mate was rather lucky! Thanks for your account of your memories. Tait seats certainly were nice and soft. I am happy to go there each year to get more video for you guys to watch 😆
But I could not stand the long months of miserable cold weather living there. 7 years driving trams was long enough.
Sounds as if these Harris units had Regen or Dynamic brakes too come to that, nice old things.
They never had regenerative braking, and they never had rheostatic braking, not even our silvers had regenerative braking, but the silvers (Hitachi) and Commeng trains had rheostatic braking. I often switched the rheo out on Hitach’s and run on air brake or tripped the rheostatic c/b out on the commeng’s and run with the air brake to keep up the skill.
Apparently some of the COMENG converted Harris cars were converted into rail inspection vehicles more recently so they are often used with diesel locomotives to inspect parts of the network! :)
That’s possible. Perhaps you could check it out and let us all know. Unfortunately apparently there are few power cars suitable for restoration and many vital parts are missing.
@@tressteleg1
It’s mainly IEV102 that seems to be a COMENG renovated Harris car that was converted into an overhead line inspection vehicle for use by Metro! :)
@@tressteleg1
The interior of IEV102 seems to have COMENG lighting fixtures which were most likely from the 1980s renovation or were installed more recently but the windows seem to match the windows on the COMENG renovated units. The centre doors were also seemingly removed more recently! :)
@@tressteleg1
I also just saw that there were Harris trains originally painted yellow and had only four doors on each car instead of six so it’s also possible that IEV102 was originally one of those units! :)
They probably were yellow in works service, but very unlikely in passenger service.
I also have been doing research on the matter. Presumably the inspection car was a trailer, and probably a ne of the few with only 2 sets of doors. I also see that a couple of motors are shown as preserved, but from memory a few years ago somebody in ElecRail told me that restoration would be very expensive, as stated earlier. That overhead inspection car is likely to remain for some time to come.
Great vedio. Especially showing the controls.loved it
Yes, but unfortunately it is now virtually impossible to recreate a Harris train.
I remember hot summer afternoons & you'd leave most of the doors open to get a lovely breeze through the carriage.
Not many fences back then either, you could walk onto the tracks quite easily & so many level road crossings with those old white gates.
I used to go up & down the St Kilda & Sandringham lines just to ride the ol' red rattlers as a kid.
One way to tell that a photo Ws taken in summer was to see if all the Tait doors were open.
It’s good to see that you also appreciated the special charms of this ancient trains.
Looks like the Burnley sidings. I grew up in Loyola Grove Burnley during the 70s & 80s and wouldn't have lived anywhere else. There used to be sidings east of the station up until around the early 70s and west of the station at the rear of Pinnacle flour mills up until the mid 90s.
There was also a station called 'Burnley Gardens' I believe just before the bridge over the freeway. The station was removed in the 1960s I think.
I remember as a 3 or 4 year old seeing the old wooden bridge over the freeway and yarra before it was replaced with a new concrete bridge.
Great period in Richmond's history.
I guess you are referring to the title photograph. I can’t really remember where that was taken, in fact it may be a photograph from a friend. As a visitor to Melbourne, I do vaguely recall the road and tramline bridge being built over the railway line at Burnley, but that’s about all I can remember from that area.
thanks for posting this especially with the Driver Lindsay, known this bloke since the early 80's when I was about 11 yo
@2:45 imagine the abuse the gate operator would get these days be like roadside speedcam opps
I'm glad you clarified that it Was New Street. As the last hand operated gates in Melbourne, the crossing has an interesting history behind it.
You just videod my depot with the L class going past it. I was with the Mechanical Signal Construction with the VR at that time. Another shot you took was looking at the roof top of the train, sadly that was the end of the Guard being on the Sparks. That being said what happens next is you get idiots Surfing on the roof of the train, regardless of the over head wire. ZAP and yes a few have died doing just that!!. THANKS FOR THE MEMORIES!!!!
Right place, right time it seems! Glad you enjoyed that bit. Unfortunately I have little sympathy for idiots who want to surf the roofs of trains. They don’t last too long in Brisbane as 25KV AC jumps much longer distances than 1500 V DC!
0:29 1:26 1:58 Why is there a random level crossing signal on display near the rail line?
6:18 McKenzie and Holland Teardrop bell! They (along with most other m-bells) have also pretty much been airbrushed from history too.
+TrickyMario7654
I really can't say but it does look a little like a signals branch depot so it could be there as a spare part or maybe some form of training. I'm not a Victorian so I cannot guess further. Sooner or later all the interesting old stuff gets scrapped, unfortunately.
Asbestos anyone? I think a lot of these trains finished up buried in tips around S.E. Melbourne. Thanks for sharing the trip down memory lane.
Thanks. They were wrapped in plastic and dumped in at least one swamp, abandoned brick pit or whatever.
hy wen thay gogot rridof them haow did thaytransport them to thetipwith aspsstos
Towed to Dandenong then wrapped up and carried by truck to Clayton rd tip. The only ones that were an issue to my understanding were burnt units.
question did your friend jack ever get to drive flying scotsman when in was in sydney for part of its australia tour back in 88
I’m pretty certain that Jack said he was the first Australian train driver to be in charge of the Flying Scotsman. He had some interesting tales to tell about his encounter with the British guys who were travelling with the loco. Even if not officially allowed to drive, my guess is that Jack would certainly have let the visitors have the privilege of driving here and there. I think he said that the visitors were interested in some innovation in smoke boxes which had been developed and was in general use in Australia. I have a copy of a book produced in 1990 featuring Flying Scotsman on tour here in 1988/1999
I miss being able to stand by the open doors!!
I think we all do!
There is an excellent docco from 1962 called All Manner of Trains. Shows some footage of the Harris manufacture. I remember a line from the film: "Their products must be built to the highest standard, as they will be subjected to arduous and widely varying use." It's on You Tube.
I’ll have to look for it.
Good to see this one again!
Last time I checked RUclips, there was sadly little else Harris to see apart from my video. Maybe if someone has some footage it will appear one day. And sadly Driver Lindsay Adams died a year or 2 ago after several years of retirement.
I saw your comment about the Harris mention on another video. Happy hunting. I’m fairly certain that I read that one or both M cars have had some of the wiring removed. Big job to fix that, with just a handful of volunteers.
@@tressteleg1 No probs
Just glad that there are at least 1 of each in existence!
Ironically probably more valuable now...
I have a video in preparation which was taken at the Tait’s home in Newport. Outside I spotted an L class electric loco with a few other vehicles behind it in the distance. The last one is yellow, and I suspect it is a Harris but I did not notice this until I looked at the video afterwards.
@@tressteleg1 Look forward to it! :)
The unfortunate thing about the Harris trains was that they were full of asbestos, used for heat and sound insulation. They were built just before the dangers of inhaled asbestos were made public; the asbestos health hazard was the main reason for their demise.
They could have been recycled. Instead they ended up mostly at the Clayton South landfills. Shame, I loved the Harris, they were the only trains that encouraged me to visit the city each weekend. They could have easily had the asbestos removed in a safe place and refitted with other harmless insulating material. Instead, they're buried them whole at Clayton, aluminium and all.
Many were deasbestostized, modernized with auto doors and crappy seating then put in Met livery. What are you talking about?
Only 16 cars were rebuilt. See Wikipedia. My memory was that it was just a few trains. It is a pity that they did not last. Drivers would not have been happy as the newest cars got the treatment, but these were the ones with the weakest motors so would have been hard pressed to stay on time.
I never saw a Harris on the Sandy line. I caught the train from Gardenvale to Brighton Beach for 3 years fron 1976 - '79 right in the era where 1x D and 2x Ms were replaced with 4x Ms in the train sets. I was enthralled to see this vid.
I remember going to the Melbourne Show from Ormond station one year on a Harris. Why I remember this particular trip is my father normally who couldn't care less for me decided to take me to the Show. I can remember thinking WTF is going on here?? (I was scared he might leave me there lol)
Anyhow, being hyper vigilant I noticed more than usual that day. The Harris we caught had high backed seating and looked to be leather. I wonder if you can shed any light on that? It may even have had a compartment with a large glass dividing window but I can't be sure just something in your vid caused a bell to ring.
As well, since I'd became so accustomed to the Tait's riding qualities (which weren't all bad as a T in the middle of the carriage was often very good), I remember the authority the wheel sounds the Harris imparted in me. The ride was smooth in any seat of the train regardless of whether it was a T or an M. It seemed faster somehow.
A memorable ride no doubt! All the Harris trains were gone when I moved to Melbourne late 1987 - there were not a lot of them anyway. I didn’t often ride them and trams were the main focus of my attention as a visitor. While I can’t help you regarding seatbacks I do you recall that some carriages did have a compartment isolating about 1/3 of the carriage which was cut off from the rest of the carriage by a partition with windows. Each side of this partition had a long seat. And at this time, Harris carriages had no doors through to the next carriage. I can’t comment about the ride of the Harris trains, but you would expect some improvement over trains 40 or more years older.
"The Harris trains looked modern and attractive, inside and out, but have almost been airbrushed from history."
The same thing has happened to the single deck electrics in Sydney and I bet it will happen to our S-sets too.
Are there any Harris trains left in original condition as electrics or were all converted to loco hauled cars?
Virtually all the Harris cars are gone. A couple of motors that were used for overhead wire greasing apparently exist.
Sydney Red single deck sets are in a much healthier state. A group is slowly but surely restoring them and a double deck trailer, as well as a W set and a U set.
There not quite gone. Today they exist in limited numbers as locomotive hauled carriages for vline. They can still be ridden daily on Vline runs to Bacchus Marsh. Now known as H sets. The H stands for Harris Cars.
Lots of Harris cars still running converted an upgraded to H set loco hauled interurban cars. With air con, carpets etc. Oldest cars still running. But for how much longer?
wow that refurbed Harris in the MET livery , i remember seeing that but never put two and two together, never even realized that it was a Harris, i guess the Tate and Hitachi eras over shadowed the Harris era, sweet video mate, i wish someone filmed the at the time mundane regional Vline freight like the swanhill oil trains and Warragul yard activity. 19:36 St Kilda train? kids these days" thats crazy talk" lol
+aussi3212
Glad it brought back good memories for you. Unfortunately I have little more vintage Aussie video yet to post.
Wish they still had the Port Melbourne and St Kilda trains.
The sad truth was that not many people rode the trains, even to St Kilda. As soon as the trams took over and went round to Acland Street, ridership skyrocketed. That was just months before I started conducting then driving those 2 lines. I saw the difference.
@@tressteleg1 At least 2 of the Harris' both unrefurbished and refurbished are in the railway museum near Newport.
Theres still the greasers and original blue motor car and refurbished motor car at the Williamstown railway museum. The trailers were converted into v/line passenger carriages still seen today.
I wish I was around to have been on one of these...
At Glenhuntley, the plarform bricks look rough on the left side, they were cut back to allow the slightly wider Comeng trains.
Quite possible.
Brings back good memories.
👍
I remember riding these trains in the 70-80's. The sound of the Harris, how can I forget that? I liked having the door open in summer and feel the cool breeze and listen to the clanking of the wheels on the track. Such beautiful memories. Then they were replaced with the noisy silver trains, I forgot their names. I also saw the Harris Trains being transported to the local tips at South Clayton. I wondered why, so one day I rode my bicycle down Clayton Road, left into Frazer Road and right into Deal Road, there were several sand quarries that had been filled with tipping waste and stuff, and there I found several Harris cars dumped in the quarry being filled with household/industrial waste and useless soil. The site where these Harris cars were dumped is next to the Oakleigh Go-Kart Racing Club, under the light grey roofed building nearest to the Go-Kart track, Google Earth it. They dumped the Harris cars because of asbestos used in them. Tonnes of aluminium and steel that was used to build the Harris trains are buried there and elsewhere around Melbourne tips, and we know that all the aluminium is there, worth a fortune. Bad decision in dumping whole cars into the ground instead of stripping and recycling the aluminium. For years I cursed the ignorance of men because I had always felt that metals would be dissolved by ground water and flow down into underground tableland and exist in creeks whose water was used to irrigate the farms and vegetable gardens around Clayton South. Shame nobody has recovered all that $$$$$$$$ silver 'gold' sitting there. Melbourne Railways, why did you have to change? You had everything, manpower, jobs and better control.
Better than living in a dog eat dog place like some nations on earth.
@Livin Vidz Strange, then, that this golden era occured when the system was government run, while everything went to hell after it was privatised.
Both sides of politics have their pet hates and likes.
I believe that the trams, trains and tracks are owned by the Victorian government and it is up to them to decide what to repair or build.
In Qld and SA the conservatives hate trams and will not fund extensions. In NSW Labor hates trams - they scrapped the previous system up to 1961.
The converted Harris cars were convered to Comeng style with aircon and similar seats but they cost nearly as much as a new Comeng car so only 16 were done. A driver complaint was they couldn’t sit close to the windscreen and so had a narrow view and were restricted to the Sandringham line where there were less level crossings.
Some real great footage
I have never heard of that place. Sorry.
Loved the video as i rode on the harris when i was a teenager from cheltenham to the city and if we were lucky we would get an old red rattler espically on a Saturday nite they had big seats to lie down on after a few and you could smoke on certian carriages and have the doors open but tbey were hot in summer ah the good old days
Sounds about right! Especially the long seats to lie down on at night but you would not want to fall asleep and end up in the car sidings!
Although the Harris sets were normally 7 cars with a 4-car Block and a 3-car unit, a couple of trains seen here on the Sandringham line are M-T-T-M-BT-M making only 6 cars. At one stage there were a couple of 8 car Harris trains running on other lines as M-T-T-M-M-T-T-M.
Harris trains were not particularly powerful so it is possible they evened the Motor/Trailer ratio to help give them a bit better performance. Perhaps some Melbourne railfan can clarify that.
@@tressteleg1 As a Melbourne railfan who was also Electrical Foreman where they were maintained I can tell you that the first and second series cars were randomly mixed regardless of their different power outputs. The first series had 4 x 150kW motors per motor coach and the second series had 4 x 115kW motors per motor coach. The Sandringham line had very few gradients so power was not an issue. In fact some of the Tait sets used on this line had only 2 motor coaches in a 6 car set. The one set that was consistently kept together was the original set with motor coaches 501M, 502M, and 503M which was used to test modifications and finished it's days running with the full acceleration as it had when delivered.
I always enjoy reading the comments of maintenance men. Like you, they always have information that general fans can only guess at.
I was friends with a driver named Lindsay Adams. I did a number of cab rides with him and even drives occasionally and he told me about the weak motors of Harris trains particularly on that big dip on the Glen Waverly line. Perhaps the big puzzle is why the much weaker motors were chosen for the later Harris trains. Perhaps somebody in administration decided to save money and even thought that somehow they could be kept on the flat lines which as you say, never happened. Running a 6 car Tait with just two motors must have had woeful acceleration. Melbourne speeds seem to have always been rather leisurely.
@@tressteleg1 No, the less powerful motors were fitted to the second series because of the excessive wheelslip on the first series causing motor damage through flash-overs. On the first series firstly they cut-out the weak field option to reduce the top speed of the motors, then they permanently set them for reduced acceleration. Around 1980 a successful wheelslip control was developed by VR engineers for these cars. It was so successful that the weak field was again able to be used on the cars when fitted, and on 501M, 502M & 503M only the original high acceleration was restored.
In the video Lindsay manipulates the controller to try and give a smoother change from series to parallel, but most drivers simply put the controller handle straight round - which you could do. You can see the ammeter drop momentarily to zero at 10:16 as the change takes place, which always caused a jolt in these cars.
More fascinating insight. Thanks very much. Without wishing to start an argument, I think that driver training in Melbourne would have been the best solution. You may know that the original Sydney electric trains had only one power bogeie per motor car and each motor had 360 hp. These were prone to slip, much more so after Ferrodo brake shoes were introduced and especially on wet days. It was essential that drivers controlled driving acceleration in the manner you mentioned which presumably was staying in First Notch but going to the Series notch briefly then back to 1st notch till the train picked up speed a bit then a bit more series. Parallel was then chosen and the procedure repeated. Even in dry weather this was best practice to avoid uncontrolled wheelspin. I experienced driving these trains just a few times.
The double deckers were four motor and much less like to spin except in wet weather. They had the wheel slipped detection which gave a jolting start as Power was cut as soon as slip was detected. I was told to use the above procedure starting those trains in the wet as well to give a much smoother start. But of course all of this is quite academic today with those trains gone and new technology being quite different.
This sound only video you may enjoy. It is a wet day run with the driver accelerating carefully to avoid spin although once or twice he does lose it. Sounds Meadowbank to Hornsbyruclips.net/video/4DMbVGGNeMY/видео.html
Sounds best with headphones or good stereo speakers.
Sorry but there is only the little bit which is at the end of this video.
Can remember that we thought these were special compared to the Red-rattlers on the Altona line (when it terminated there) Thanks for the vid!
+holden602001
Coming from Sydney at that time, I thought they looked quite modern with their fluorescent lights and laminex walls inside. Amazing that they disappeared so quickly and virtually completely.
@@tressteleg1 I think that was because of the asbestos. It's a bit before my time, but as I understand it the glue that held the asbestos in place had begun to deteriorate after 30-odd years of service and release the fibres. As such, the trains had to be pulled from service very quickly. Indeed, they were withdrawn before the replacement fleet was completely delivered, causing a fair few cancelled services.
Asbestos certainly had a lot to do with it, but you should also remember that the last Tait had run a couple of years earlier and Comeng trains were rolling off the assembly line. Harris Trains were the next for the scrappers. Whether they were withdrawn so hastily as to produce a rolling stock shortage, I don’t know.
Not all Harris trains contained asbestos, however even those which didn't left service very quickly, at least in some cases to be sunk in a swamp. It seems someone in the government didn't mind wasting huge amounts of money.
The handful of Harris trains that were refurbished were quite clear of asbestos after that. The newest Harris trains had weaker motors so were somewhat underpowered and when the rest were withdrawn, these were probably shunned for that reason and generally transport Drivers hate anything that is different from the vast majority of the fleet. Whether it was management or unions which saw the refurbished Harris trains quickly thrown aside is unknown.
The horns on these Harris trains sound like the ones on modern-day comeng trains. Did they have very similar horns?
Why does this happen? Why is there a copy of my comment appearing further down in the comment section?
I have no idea about the horns. And I can see no sign of your comment being repeated. That would be a matter for RUclips, not for me if there was any copy.
My 80's to and from school routine, Ferntree Gully / Belgrave.... Fond memories of Harris Trains
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3:00 This railway crossing is actually located on New St.
I think somebody else pointed that out some time ago.
For those who don't know, the same coach bodies were used by the Toronto Transit Commission on their subway line from its 1954 opening til the mid 90s. We called them the Red Rockets. Cheers from Canada 🇨🇦
Interesting. I didn’t know that. Interesting in that yours were painted red, and thus Red Rockets. Melbourne’s were painted a rich blue, and mostly known as the “Blue Trains” (in a sea of ancient looking red trains).
Anyone else wish that they had a time machine right now?
Yes!
Thanks heaps for uploading this, as someone who has been a regular commuter since moving to inner Melbourne in 2008 (and still trained fromthe Frankston when I lived on the peninsula), I've always wanted to see what St. Kilda & Port Melb were like pre light rail conversion. I know the TV Screen PID's have existed at least since the first city loop station opened in 1981 and I had wondered if they were used on the St. Kilda line (so the end of the vid answered my question). I'm amazed the same TV screens with the exact same typeface still exist at Box Hill station (and even if said TV screens aren't 35 years old, the technology is at least).
tressteleg1 in your opinion, if the the circa mid 80's PTC & the State Gov't had the crystal ball to find out what the population & patronage of St. Kilda and Port Melbourne was going to be in 2016, would they have been better off leaving them as train lines for the sake of greater capacity per service, or do the advantages of greater frequency with light rail outweigh the disadvantages of less capacity?
As someone who once lived on the Mornington side of the Peninsula, rather than the Stony Point side and both those lines closed in 81, but the latter reopened in 84, many probably would've said back in the day that the Mornington line was a white elephant. Nowadays the demand for PT, quite ironically, is greater on the Mornington side than it is on the Stony Point side (hence Mornington has Night Network bus services, but the Stony Point side is devoid of either bus or train NN services).
bozza03 A comment I recall at the time the Mornington line closed was that the rail motor took 30 minutes whereas a bus or taxi could get there in 10 minutes. The line was a big curve from Baxter and the Nepean Hwy was more direct. Some days the derm was replaced by a taxi which indicated how many riders there were. One day I waited at RM Stopping Place no. 16 with a bicycle only to see a taxi turn up so I had to ride back on the bike.
Brad Allen It’s a bit hilly if it branched off before Baxter. Apparently they tried to close the Mornington line in the sixties and there was a big outcry. The same people objected to the 1980s closure. I recall the race special with T388 that was trapped at the platform by protesters. It was on the News that night.
Brad Allen This was after the Lonie Report, the Mornington line and Healesville line closed on the same day, the government were busting to cut services, the Stony Point line was closed for a short time, Steve Crabb reinstated some services including the Stony Point and Cobram line, I forget which else.
I remember them when I was a child around 1987 on the Dandenong Line! They smelled bad! One year later they were scraped and dumped in Clayton
Bad smells were probably related to grubby people riding in them. With their withdrawal approaching, maintenance may have been down a bit too.
hi there, just subscribed to this amazing channel !
do you have videos of the St Kilda and Port Melbourne trains ?
Danza Entertainment found a couple:
ruclips.net/video/kLvzNTA7JW8/видео.html and ruclips.net/video/l72eybgRdD4/видео.html
Great historic footage 👍
I continue to be surprised that for a train type that existed for 30+ years, nobody else took videos of them. So it certainly is history as there are only a few cars still in existence with no plans to restore a train.
Sitting in the door in summer from Box Hill to the city express as the platforms raced past you just inches away.
True, and the red trains in Sydney were equally exciting. I have a photo of 2 high school boys sitting right next to the open door. Quite normal. Something today’s kids will never enjoy.
I lived in Melbourne on and off in the late '70s and early '80s for short periods of times at Reservoir, Brunswick, and Sandringham. I remember the Harris trains and the Red Rattlers. I loved going to St Kilda on the Rattlers, the only reason to go to St Kilda was to ride on the Red Rattlers clearly to me they were my favorite and a very close second was the Blue sets of Harris cars, are there preserved Blue Harris cars? Thanks for posting your video I enjoyed it so much I watched it twice.
As a visitor, to me the Harris trains in 1965 were very modern with their fluorescent lights, Laminex lining, and attractive blue colour with the cream stripe. The Taits are so ugly you had to love them, while their sounds were quite enchanting. Today’s trains are modern, maybe more comfortable but only make weird noises and don’t particularly have any character as far as I am concerned. Check Google but I gather that just a couple of Harris motors survive, former wire greasing trains. Plus the VLine trailers.
@@tressteleg1 there are two at the railway museum in Newport, one refurbished and one original (without absestos and I believe with automatic doors installed from new).
From what I have heard, the few Harris cars at Williamstown are in poor condition and a lot of electrical equipment has been stripped from them. This makes them essentially unrestorable to operating condition but if you are in Melbourne, you can check with the museum much more easily than me.
What happened to the Richmond video with Harris and taits? You had a few and now deleted?
I have deleted nothing from Melbourne. If you can’t see the video you remember below, then it is unlikely to have been mine.
Victorian Trains Lineside
ruclips.net/p/PLLtOIHp49XNA_mVsCrep-VpCUqsId9Fxu
My memories of the inside of Harris trains is very faint. Funnily enough I know I definitely rode on them. I can remember waiting to get on them and have memories of them approaching the platform.
+Cameron Whyte
It's close to a disgrace that just about all have been airbrushed out of history as though they never existed. Recently I found a little more video of them as seen from a bridge. A parcel van also goes past. I will post it in a few weeks. No indoor shots though.
I don't think I ever saw a Harris on the Sandy line. What year (give or take) was this? Hold that I'll guess 1988 by the cars. How did I do?
edit: I saw Lindsay 1985 LOL.
6 and 7 car Harris sets on the Sandy line ffar out. Until I saw this vid I never saw a 6 car Harris set at all - ever! They were nearly all 7. Seeing a 6 car set on the Sandy line didn't surprise me that much because it was the line that got the dregs of the systems rolling stock but seeing both 6 and 7 car sets is surprising.
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Not sure if this is right or not but didn't some old Melbourne trains end up as an underwater reef or something? Was this just talk or did I imagine it? Perhaps someone knows.I was just curious. Watching this video got me to thinking back to those days when I used to be a regular visitor to Melbourne.
Unfortunately newer trams and trains seem to lack character found in earlier trains, but I suppose they are better trains for the public to ride.
As far as I know many of the scrapped Harris cars were wrapped in plastic and dumped in a quarry at ?Clayton. Others are still VLine trailers.
What do the white disks with X on the front of the loco mean?
From memory, there was a variety of disk symbols and each indicated to the signal box men just what line the train was going to. You should find more on Google.
This explanation by the Taitset channel was very welcome to me :
ruclips.net/video/qv4NOSftrvg/видео.html
I expect others will too. Lots of good content on his channel of content that he has filmed in the last 20 years.
He was not born early enough to film the historic welcome content on this channel.
At St Kilda station, I asked the guy manning the barrier the purpose of the little brass wheel above his head, he turned it and the hands of the large clockface at the street end of the platorm moved it’s hands. It was for setting the next train departure time.
The old clocks showing departure times for the next trains on the various lines which are above the steps at Flinders Street station would have been operated in a similar manner until they were mechanised a number of years ago.
@@tressteleg1 Yes, I remember the man with the pole.
What Year was this Filmed..?
Title on the actual video says 1985 although some scenes were taken a little before or after..
At least you hold your iPhone in landscape mode and not portrait.
Bang on Neil Forbes. A lot of footage shot with i phones is fine,but,for really good detail ya can't beat the real thing ..yep,a good old video camera!
Something tells me he wasn't shooting with an iPhone back in 1985.
It was a Panasonic State of the Art VHS video camera using full size VCR tapes. iPhones were about 25 years into the future, long after the last Harris ran.
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@@rkvktmen Catch the TARDIS before the train.
The poor Harris trains, condemned because of their asbestos content, so I believe. I liked them. They looked good in their blue and yellow, were airy and spacious with comfy seats and had a comfortable ride. They were much more pleasant to travel in than the 'hot box' Hitachi trains with their dreadful seats. I see that your camera technique has improved since the 80's :-)
The asbestos in the Harris Trains was a major reason for their withdrawal. It was removed from the few rebuilds, recognised by their grey paint.
I first visited from Sydney in 1965 and then thought they looked rather modern. It is a pity that it is almost impossible to rebuild even just 4 cars now.
Always enjoy your videos when I first came to Melbourne I always hoped it would be a blu train not the rattler. Looking back though outside of peak the rattlers were probably one of the most comfortablre tains to travel in. Now a little nitpic the locomotive at the beginning would not have been coming from Yallourn passenger services were discontinued way back there was a bus connection to Moe station. My guess would be being four carriages it came up from Bairnsdale.
The Taits did have nice soft seats. As for the origin of the loco hauled train, my geography of that region has always been weak and I just guessed. I can’t have been wrong by more than a handful of km.
@@tressteleg1 About 120 ks or more the train from Bairnsdale used to be called The Gippslander and it was a wonderful new train with two seats either side of the aisle the old red carriages were in most cases compartments to seat eight
Well I do know that the electric loco did not come all the way from Bairnsdale even if the carriages did.
I also know that Bairnsdale was closed but that was probably after 1986 and more devastation by ££#$@%*$ Kennett. At least it was reopened a few years ago.
@@tressteleg1 It was electrified from Moe onwards if I remember rightly I mean it was the area where elctricity was produced. Kennett really did devastate public transport when Labor got in they reopened the line and the other two were supposed to follow but never have at least the tracks to Leongatha are still there so they can extend to Cranbourne South
Kennett’s only care about public transport was cutting its cost by any means, no doubt believing that his voters never use it anyway. Probably Bairnsdale is the most important of the lines to reopen anyway. Time will tell if extension to Cranbourne South is warranted.
Where are these trains today?
A lot of the trailers were modified and are still hauled behind V line locomotives. Just about all the power cars have been scrapped and the few left which were used for a while on works duties apparently would be extremely expensive to restore. Because of asbestos content, quite a few were wrapped in plastic and dumped in the brickworks quarry at Clayton, I think it was.
@@tressteleg1 Thank You
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I'd love to use 4 seconds of this footage in a documentary I'm helping with. How do I contact you about that?
Email me using tressteleg(at)icloud.com
Use the normal symbol instead of (at)
Must have been a hot day
Never saw to many Harris trains on the St Albans line
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The only thing I didn't like running the Harris trains as a Guard was they used to "back trip" a lot when you went through the underground loop. Because the track was bi-directional there were home signals facing in opposite directions on both sides of the track and every now and then (quite often actually) the little trip lever underneath the drivers cabin would hit the trip arm on the home signal on the other side of the track and we would lose air. The Guard would have to climb out and reset the trip lever by giving it a belt with the switch stick. On one occasion, I reset the trip lever and the air came up very quickly and the driver started moving off before I was back in the Guards van. Luckily we were only about 200 metres from the platform so I had to jog down to catch up with the train. There were no power doors on the Harris trains so no one even knew until I told the driver when were changing ends later on. It only ever happened to me on the Harris trains, must have been a design thing.
I’m not familiar enough with Melbourne trains to know the finer details, but I thought that the unwanted trip arms, like those on car 4, could be clipped up out of the way. Certainly having to get out to reset it is not good.
Although I don't remember the Harris train sets I do remember the doors, growing up.
I've never seen the inside fo an Harris Trains! I came to Australia in 1999, but up untill now I only seen red rattler trains (ie the inside)...
Also if you hadn't said it was refurbished Harris I would have thought it was an Hitachi one!
I’m pleased that this helped out. There is not much else about Harris trains on RUclips.
@@tressteleg1 Sad but true :/
Thanks for sharing!
@@icascone 😊👍
@@tressteleg1 Recently discovered that there is ONE Harris Train existing and ONE referbished one at Newport historic society...
@@icascone Well that is news to me, and I am a Steamrail member to stay up to date with Elecrail events. In fact there will be a video before too long showing Tait restorations at Newport. Harris trains in their day looked smart in blue with the yellow ‘moustache’ and had modern features inside, so I asked my administrative contact there about Harris trains and apparently there is a car or two from the wire greasing train still existing, while many trailers are still hauled around by VLine. However to get even a 4 car set back to passenger standard would take squillions of $$$ which simply don’t exist. Elecrail also has a Hitachi train stored somewhere outdoors for preservation but it is constantly getting vandalised and with no indoor storage is likely to just rot away.
I was a young lad in the railways back then and the blue trains were well ahead of there time as they would not be out of place on todays service
As a young man on my first visit to Melbourne in 1965, I thought the Harris Trains looked rather smart and modern with their fluorescent lights (only introduced to Sydney with doubledeck trailers in 1964) and their Laminex interior wall linings. The blue paint was also attractive. The great pity is that not one four car set was saved even if at great expense the remaining cars could be rebuilt into a set.
Truly fascinating. I couldn't imagine having open door trains these days with OH&S haha
Originally, no trains had self-closing doors. It was up to the passengers simply not to fall out which they managed with quite good efficiency. Not that it happened often, but foolish behaviour was probably behind most of it. The more that rules are made up to protect people from their own stupidity, the less care they take for themselves.
@@tressteleg1 You're not wrong about that! How long have you been around trains? by the looks you were a driver at some point?
Trams then Trains in Sydney caught my attention around 1950 when I was five. I was a Melbourne tram driver for six years but also had some unofficial train drives, just a few being recorded.
Sly Drives of Electric Trains. Melbourne, Sydney, London.
ruclips.net/video/dR8gZ9tJeyI/видео.html
One of my earliest memories of travelling on the blue Harris trains was someone vomiting out an open door and seeing it fly past the next open door where I was, disgusted though thankfully I don’t recall the smell, I don’t think they had automatic door then.
This was in the early 80s just before they were withdrawn from service.
That was an unfortunate reason to remember them. The passenger doors were never automatically closed on them, I believe.
Mmm.....not sure that L-class came from Yallourn. Except for special trains, like school or social club trips, for example, it only handled goods (briquettes?) not passengers. At least by the early 1970s, I seem to recall.
I loved the sound of those L-class coming into the Moe station.
BTW, some Harris class carriages have been refurbished and are used by V-Line.
A history of the Moe to Yallourn now long closed branch line is at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yallourn_railway_line
Kelvin H I should have written Traralgon instead if Yallourn but otherwise L class did regularly haul passenger trains, as seen in this video. This comes from a friend who is a long-time Melbourne rail fan. “I remember travelling on The Gippslander service many times with an L on the front as far as Traralgon (end of the wire) then being replaced by a B-class or even an X-class diesel-electric loco to continue east. Conversely, an L would replace a diesel from Traralgon heading west.”
@@tressteleg1 Thank-you for your reply, and yes those L-class engines seemed to be the ubiquitous locomotive in my youth.
Happy days!
@@reidgck Wonderful! Thank-you for the link. When I used to commute to Melbourne, and not far out out of Morwell I could see a railway crossing sign close to where the spur line would have joined the main Gippsland line. Sad sight.
Kelvin H 😊👍