Playing Pathfinder/DC 20/Daggerheart is like playing the game Tekken and thinking you're better than the Mortal Kombat players. "Mortal Kombat is too restrictive! Tekken is where it's at! If you want to play real fighting games, you play Tekken." So you stand alone at the arcade machine while a mob of kids surround the Motal Kombat machine. Because one is clearly more "cool" than the other. Some people just want to be contrarians and think that's a virtue in itself.😂😅
I think having default skills for initiative based on the type of pre-combat encounter would really help. Example, insight for social, awareness for exploration, and a simple combat check (martial attack or spell check) for a basic combat. If a different/more appropriate check is required then the GM would call for it. With a more experienced group I could see the burden for choosing the initiative checks being placed on the players to speed stuff up and if a player seems to be only choosing their best skills all the time and not the thematically correct skills then the GM would have a one on one talk with them about it.
I have been playing a lot of dc20 and we defoulted too a d20 roll plus prime and it works fine for us Unless a situation happends whare players ware alredy doing things before combad started then we use the appropriate skill wich the gm calls for you can however say i think this is investigation and nor awareness becouse i was looking at something specific
I do agree with the sentiment you shared about Grit points, but the primary reason they exist is to give Charisma a tangible effect in combat, while still feeling like an appropriate ability for Charismatic characters. Otherwise Charisma could easily feel like the RP attribute, and nothing else.
Great video, as always, IC! This is exactly the type of videos I wanted to watch about DC20. If I go over Coach's channel, of course Imma hear purely good things about the system, I wanted to know the good, but also the bad and the meh, that what REALLY would inform me if the game is for me or not. So, thank you
As far as tracking the various points, my table uses colored tokens. At low levels it's easy to manage. We'll have to see how it works out for a 20th level Archmage!
Great review - one of the only reviews where the depth of the game materials was introduced, come critiques offered, and honest opinions given - refreshing, rewarding, and it why I follow your content closely since I discovered your channel. Bravo!
My group has played the alpha playtest. Our insights: - Prime skill means you must multiclass. There is no penalty to multiclass because no class is MAD any more. Therefore you can combo spells and martial abilities way better. - Spell duels are somewhat fun but also tedious. Everyone has spellcasting (see above) so the party always kept someone’s spells free. Basically no NPC got spells off. - 4-action needs to separate movement from actions. 5e gets this right - moving while attacking is more fun. - 4 actions at any point is cool. - Initiative was weird - you always take turns between enemy and players, so there wasn’t much incentive to bother setting up carefully or anything. - There is a little of the 4e problem: each class has a different way of doing the same thing. This is not as bad as 4e was, but it was noticeable. - At this stage, we aren’t sure the added crunch added anything. The skills / talents system slowed us down as we had to keep looking stuff up.
I haven't gotten to play this yet myself and from the outside it feels like a lot of crunch for the sake of crunch. Glad to see someone talk more in depth about the feeling of actually playing because every youtube reveiwer is only talking about the game theory of it with vague praise.
You can can break up your movement by moving before and after taking a different Action. So you can move while attacking. Unless you meant something else?
@@caldrich123 Since movement takes 1AP, and you only get 5 squares, it takes two resources from you to move. Since you want 1AP free for reactions for most of the time, you are disincentivised from moving. 5e you can move without it affecting anything else, DC20 you cannot. So you have to weigh up moving, attacking and moving again.
@@HorizonOfHope But from what I gather, movement points you gain from using move action can be spent at any time during your round. The "break up" of your movement that the previous commenter mentioned likely references that. If you are 2 spaces away from a target, move action gives 5 spaces of movement. You can then move 2 steps, attack, then more 3 more steps before your turn is over. So at least it's only 2 actions, not 3 actions. This is unlike what I recall Pathfinder 2 doing, where it would cost 3 actions to move, attack, move..
I've tested DC20 twice. I often had players perform an Awareness check for initiative while simultaneously finding out if they were surprised by the combat. It's not exactly in the spirit of what the DC20 rules had in mind, but it works at my table.
It seems like Awareness would easily become the default... Which effectively makes Initiative a Prime check... which... Isn't terrible, but it means everyone's rolling the same modifier.
I think part of why grit exists in DC20 is because of the prime modifier mechanic. since classes aren't tied to specific ability scores, giving each ability score equal combat utility is suddenly much more important so that every ability is mechanically viable as a prime modifier. Grit is definitely a bit clunky and feels weird as a universal mechanic coming from D&D, but it's probably the most thematic way to give charisma combat utility. if you want to get rid of grit points you have to come up with an alternative way to value charisma in combat. I'm pretty sure this is also why initiative uses skill checks instead of a flat modifier, the only ability that makes sense for a permanent initiative modifier is agility, and that would make it the strongest stat like dexterity in D&D. When specific abilities aren't tied to classes they all have to be balanced so that they're all good choices. I will admit that I don't know what the combat value is for intelligence since I don't have the PDFs, but I know there has to be one somewhere.
Had my 1st playtest with the free rules (backed the 0.5 alpha) for a party of 6 level one new players (soon to be 7). A month prior to the story, an earthquake rocked the land and unearthed an artifact deep within a forest where it was found by a goblin commander and gave it psionic abilities. With its new powers, it started raiding the surrounding villages and mercenaries were called in for help but never arrived, thus leading the party to being called in for help. I can't wait for someone to make the connection that with the commander being a psychic goblin, it's only a matter of time until he's on his deathbed and the party realizes it's an elaborate setup for a "mind goblin DEEZ NUTS!" joke
Grit exist to give more weight to Charisma beside social encounters. Having it locked behind classes I think would be a bad idea, however having a basic use of grit that everyone can use BUT then having each class have a way of using grit a different way does seem interesting. Does that just create more scope creep though? hmmm
Charisma is also used for taunt kind of maneuvers and the coach said theyre working on a system surrounding that, charisma will have a lot of use anyway. the system is bloated with things to track, GP is definitely something id be considering removing
Yeah, I understand the Grit gives more value to Charisma, I said so in the video too! My point wasn’t so much to lock Grit behind classes, but rather the things that it does can likely be better folded into classes and subclass features. Grit right now gives Charisma added value but that’s not to say that other things can’t be added to give weight to Charisma.
Correct me if i am wrong but all Atributes could be used to be your Prime Atribute (the one that you use for Atacks, spells and other skills), so you can have Charisma as your Prime Atribute.
I was not excited about grit - not another type of point to track! They should look at PF1 and see how charisma can affect combat by inflicting mental status effects like fear through a display of prowess or when you deliver a particularly devastating blow it terrifies the enemies who just saw it
On the whole "issue" of custom skills for Initiative, and someone always using their best skills in case initiative breaks out... HA! You've activated my Trap Card: Accidentally playing your role!
lol that wasn’t my point :P If someone is actually doing the thing that’s fine. If someone just immediately starts doing something that makes no sense so they get a better roll because they sense a fight is about to break out, that’s a totally different thing.
@@InsightCheck Yeah, I suppose. Though they'd also have to sense that coming somehow, which is the other trap card: Paying enough attention to the game to notice when combat breaks out! Although it definitely doesn't help if they initiate combat all the time.
I actually kinda like it from a certain POV, and in a certain context it kinda seems like that kind of action would actually cause combats to happen; the fantasy equivalent of the cowboy unclicking the button on his holster, and the other party assuming he's gonna draw.
It's more of the problem that it encourages a certain style of play that's akin to having a hammer and turning all problems into nails. This can lead to frustration. For instance if we have a party that's all built around charisma (very viable in IC from what i can tell), you may get grumpy players when the enemies refuse to talk first and the GM denies them initiative rolls based on social abilities.
@@joshl4751 I can see how that could be a catalyst for bigger problems. But for a group like that, I think the GM might need to talk to their Players and set expectations about the kind of Campaign that's being run. As for letting them roll initiative with Charisma skills all the time... as long as they're doing something appropriate, then yeah, I'd say go for it. Or... session 0 perhaps? Bonus: If a GM thinks trying to roll Initiative with just Charisma is an issue, how would they explain it being worse than with just Dexterity in D&D 5e?
I dont think stamina will be difficult to remember because it is an encouragement of the playstyle you desire refilling your only resource as a martial. Its pretty intuitive so it will work well imo
As far as players trying to min-max initiative rolls, there’s a simple fix: don’t be a weaselly player and be an open-minded GM. It really is as simple as that. It’s only a problem if you’re being troublesome. It creates a dynamic, creative situation and is interesting, only being slow if you let it be. It should carry itself and people need to trust the table.
I house-rule initiative because I really like how Savage Worlds does it. The back and forth is cool and I may bring that part into my initiative somehow.
Someone pointed out that Moves have the negative side of removing possible player creativity. DM/GM might not allow you to grapple someone because you don't have that manuver 😂 same with pushing, disarming and tripping. Like manuver should feel improved version of the basic action or something. ❤
I agree that initiative at the start of the fight is too complex and pause the story at the worst time. Maybe have it as a optional rule for special situation, but use simple roll "which side starts" for most combat. Also order by player initiative complicate things. My take would be to let players choose order as they see fit.
I think we might be confusing "slow" with "unengaging" though. The reason initiative slogged in D&D was because everyone took a break to do math. While in DC20, everyone will be explaining what they're doing. Players keep track of the initiative as well as what they're doing.
Yeah... I definitely think they should just tie Initiative to Prime Modifier/Awareness and call it a day, this "pick your Skill by doing something before the Encounter" is just going to be a bad idea in practice, even if it sounds cooler in concept.
I was following DC20 thruout the development. He was a 5e guy until he played a bit of Pathfinder & fell in love with it, so he made his game Pathfinder 2.5. Pathfinder guys are just modern GURPS guys: use whatever mechanic seems most "realistic", ignoring how it actually complicates and slows down the game. Here's how to fix initiative: GM and players roll 1d12 (great die; needs more love)--not everybody individually. Higher roll goes first, deciding who among them. Then other side goes. But... in their class features, martials and rogues can sometimes take a feat that gives a bonus to their group's initiative. Likewise, certain super-quick monsters get a bonus. That's it. That's all you need.
What I want from Grit, is a resource to say "I'm trying *extra Super Hard* on this thing. In World of Darkness games, Shadowrun, Warhammer Fantasy, they all have a limited resource to get bonus dice, or a reroll in emergency situations.... I've always wanted that for d20 games, and even added a house-rule that all players get a per-session Bonus d20 they can add to any roll (this was instituted after a dispiriting string of TPKs the party suffered 😬)
Solid video, man! It kind of makes it feel like the TTRPG community is contributing to the game. I'm not sure that I super agree with everything here, but I do hope these things are considered! The better the game the better the fun! Everyone can converse over the nerdy math stuff. I'll look forward to playing with the finished product!
Thank you so much! And yeah it’s definitely still a work in progress! There’s a lot to look forward to and some things are in great shape now and others need a bit of work! I’m eagerly looking forward to want the game will become!
Ive a couple players interested in this system so im following it. It seems to have a good vision of what it wants to do, but systems definitely need refinement and consolidation for this to pull us from 5e or pf2e. Best of luck to the team, and thanks for the content.
I haven't played the game yet, but I've already made a spreadsheet for myself as the GM and for my PCS for tracking all of the AP SP and MP. It is truly not that difficult to do, and I think people are worried about it because they it's something they're not used to. You can just use tally marks on a spreadsheet on your computer. Or if you want to be all analog, you can just have a counter of some sort or physical tokens that you use.
@@InsightCheck it's one of my current issues with DC20 - most classes have extra of something from a class feature, and this isn't shown on their chart. Casters are universally shown as having 3 mana points at level 1 despite their spellcasting feature adding their prime mod to that number (so every caster should start with 6).
This definitely feels like a system that will benefit from VTT integration. Having the computer know when to replenish SP or track AP will smooth out a lot of the growing pains
To track Stamina and Mana, and Grit Points (if not folded into a Class as you suggest) are easy to track with tokens or a counter. That said, the digital version will likely track it for you.
Love to hear your take! I love how the system is going and the spirit of what their trying to do with skill for initiative but so far is clunky. I hope they can tweak it a bit more to make it simple
I am eager to playtest about the speed/slowness of combat turns, comparing martial versus spellcaster. My guess = a little slower all around but not terrible
I think this is likely. There’s a lot of stuff but like I mentioned most of it is fairly streamlined and approachable so I think it’ll be reasonably paced.
I dont know if this was already mentioned (commenting @ 6 minute mark) but it almost sounds to me like the 5e initiative style would fit well with the dc20 action points. Look at the fact that you can do more than just react at any time with your ap, and at the of your turn refreshing ur AP. You could dump all your ap, and it hasnt gotten to your turn yet, this compensates for the issue of being caught in last place. Though it probably makes more sense to have both sides alternate, mixed with the ap “act” at any time, giving a more direct feeling that everything is happening at the same time.
There is a Brazilian TTRPG called Tormenta 20. I think they get the Iniciative right. It is just a skill like steath or persuasion. You can spend points to get better as in any other skill in the game. I think something like that would work better here too
I’m really excited to dm a game for my group to hopefully make them transition from 5e. Martial making a difference is a big point. One of my player has given up on martial in 5e because he just find them too boring and monotonous. Go DC20!!!
If they go with the back and forth order, and a DC to beat, I would probably just make it one relevant check from whoever essentially initiated the combat. I guess you'd still want to determine order from everyone on the player side. From reading it, initiative does seem like something they're still working out the kinks for. But yeah, I honestly loved the iteration of the rules I read, but I do agree that it seems like a lot for someone to remember. That has really been my only critique from reading the rules. For martials at least, from level 1 you get the three basic combat maneuvers, at least one from the weapon(s) you use, on top of four more you choose - on top of class abilities and everything else. Then there's the techniques, which my initial gut reaction almost feels extra and unnecessary (although some are cool). In some cases they feel redundant with maneuvers, just more powerful, but I think the intention is to add class specific ones if I'm not mistaken. I'm curious to see where they go. Otherwise I generally really love so many of the design choices here. I feel like there are so many opportunities for player expression and it just kind of does all of the things I would have wanted from a 5e/PF2 hybrid (which is something I genuinely wanted after first reading PF2).
Your video made me think that grit points should be tied to class-specific maneuvers, like rogues and warlocks increasing damage, fighters and paladins reducing damage, bards and commanders affecting saves, etc
Yeah the initiative system seems interesting, but also slow and clunky. I've played around with my players using their highest stat before as their initiative, if they can articulate how they will do it. For example, an intelligent person sees the patterns and the next moves to make, a dexterous person has faster reaction speeds, a charismatic person is used to be a quick thinker and improv, a strong person has great muscle memory. No one has used con or wis at my table yet, but I imagine high con could be interpreted as conditioning and always ready to spring into action, like coiled metal springs. A high wisdom might be a deep awareness of their surroundings
I think I also do not like the initiative thing. Using stealth or performance for rolls can be great, but those should be granted by a feat or a boon or a class feature, it should not be for everyone. I don't see a problem with stamina, it's way better that the mess for fear and hope in daggerheart. I'd just do the same thing that I do with HP: put the total and the amount that I substact/add in a different sheet of paper, it's not that hard
I have an issue with the stamina system versus the Mana system. Stamina is regained while fighting and at the start of combat. Mana is only regained after a long rest. I haven't seen enough of the spells to see if they are so freaking powerful that they justify this disparity.
the initiative will be abused 100%. the add 1 damage or make it hit one more enemy is the same for spellcasters, maybe it'll be like retail wow, everyone has different classes but they all do the same exact thing
Dc20 does seem overly complex. But i do like there being a mechanical combat benefit to charisma. Grit is a way to do that. But like most rules in dc20, its very mathy. Overall, for people who want a rules system thats very rules dense, i think theyll love it. I think people who like simple streamlined games will hate it
I'm kind of curious what the "net complexity" is when compared to 5e. Compared to a champion fighter, the IC fighter has more complexity, but compared to a BM fighter the stamina points feel pretty comparable, but grit points are an additional resource beyond (although fighters have to manage some other resources: second wind, action surge, etc.). Most casters on the other hand seem simpler because mana points are a single pooled resource as opposed to having spell slots which is a glut of resources. If grit points are no more complex than say channel divinity or the alternative uses for wild shape, than I think for most casters you are net simpler in IC than D&D 5e. I do think IC has intentionally avoided making any character as plain as a champion fighter and I think that's a good thing. I think you're just going to need some training wheels type ideas for introducing players who are not familiar with tactical combat at all.
I love most rules in DC20 afaik them. The initiative system is a hard pass though. It feels like it was changed just to be different. Were I to play it, I would just revert to standard rolling in order.
Haha yeah that was kind of my thoughts too. I would at least test it out a few times but I don’t see how it’s a true improvement over what we have in 5e.
Just want to keep in mind that the monsters will be created with a back and forth initiative and may not work as well in the DND style. Personally, the popcorn method is something a lot of people homebrew into their games so I'm eager to see how it works out. I already use PF2e initiative rules where whatever you were doing is your initiative. It adds no additional time at all.
So the Initiative system has 2 parts really, Unique skill check, and combat order. Both can be chocked up to preference, so I'll give my 2 cents. I prefer the unique skill check vs static skill as it feels more connected to what was happening before combat. Why would I make a perception roll if I was trying to intimidate or I fluency the NpC. I prefer the flow of back and forth initiative. yeah it's less swing but ther is a little more nuance as well. I also feel this can actually speed combat up. First encounter DCs will set ahead of time so the GM isn't doing that on the fly, and no rolling for NPCs, makes up for any potential delay with players. Then the pacing allows the GM to tell player their up next while the NPC goes. Also if multiple plays beat the DC they do get to go together, or they can delay their turn to work together as well. I have run several one shots and have an ongoing campaign in DC20. I really enjoy the initiative system so much that I have incorporated it into my 5e game and it made a noticeable difference.
I wonder if I feel differently because I'm just getting into TTRPGs and not been playing for too long (two months), but almost everything you're not sure of sounds like a pro to me when compared to DnD
Initiative is wack and needs to change. A lot of the martial stuff sounds so cool, but I am really afraid it will end up too slow to enjoy. Seems like a lot of chances for a plus +1 here, an advantage there, an extra damage from this feature, then disadvantage on your first attack, etc until it takes 30 seconds to remember what you have. Then forget about the DM keeping track of all of the enemy's actions, that will be really tough. On the plus side, maritals seem to finally have a lot of good options for what to do in combat besides, "I attack twice". It makes me very excited for them! Thanks for the nice summary!
Rolling alao has another issue in its last example where the gm can just arbitrarily decide that you dont get your bonus. You should at minimum get your prime stat as a bonus imo.
That's not really the intent, and good GM wouldn't be trying that either. It's meant for the GM to say use something else when the player tries to use their stealth in the middle of a bright, open courtyard. Sure it can feel arbitrary, but shouldn't be an issue if you have a GM running a fair fun game.
@@martinbowyer7906 yea but in the example text it doesn't say the GM told the bard to pick a different skill. He just rolled flat because he chose a bad skill
@@cloudeon3468 I'll give you that the Bard roll a flat check, however that isn't because he picked a bad skill, its because they didn't pick anything. From the text "The Bard is absently plucking their lute, unable to think of anything else to do." it sounds like the player of the Bard wasn't really engaging in the scene even before combat starting. So they get a flat check, seems very on point to me for a character who wasn't really paying attention anyways.
I hate d&d 5e initiative because it's glacially slow. This doesn't feel much better. I'm currently developing my own system, and I have it where there are 3 initiative groups to keep the pace of getting combat started faster. It might change, though. In mine, everyone rolls (2D6+modifier) and the group of players who meet or beat the enemies go first in whatever order they like, the. Enemies, then slow players. I'm going to try and develop a combo system where there are actions you can do that require 2 players in the same initiative group.
The initiative thing is only a problem if you got problem players. Also if the rogue wants to start sneaking around right before combat breaks out. Tell them no. Especially if it makes no sense given the context. That's what the DM is for, be the Arbiter of the game.
I think this is an unnecessarily reductive statement that doesn't really provide anything other than "blame" and even within your statement, it is contradictory. You say it's "only a problem if you've got problem players" but then go on to say that it's the job of the DM to be the "arbiter of the game" so by your own admission, if the DM isn't doing that, they are also the problem. The whole point I was making about the Initiative system was much less about the min/max possibilities of it and just that fact that it is slow and requires so many steps to even explain. If someone asks "how does Initiative work" you then have to explain Encounter DCs, Initiative DCs, how initiative checks differ across characters, how ordering works if they beat the DC or not, then that the GM gets to just decide the order for the enemies, but only on the first round... It's just a lot and has absolutely nothing to do with having "problem players". Sometimes a design is just a whiff and that's ok. The game is still in SUPER early development.
@InsightCheck I 100% disagree. This initiative system is way less convoluted than 5e. Once the players understand the system, initiative takes about 30 seconds. All the info you need is if they party beat the DC and what order the players are going. Boom done, combat starts. No one is waiting 10min for the DM to roll initiative for every enemy and then putting them all in order... 😴 And your take on Grit is just lazy. Grit actually provides Charisma with combat relevance and helps with the system goal of having no dump stats. If Charisma has zero impact on combat, guess what, every min-max build will be "dump Charisma" anything other than Charisma being your prime modifier would a net positive. Maybe actually play the system before you try and critique it.
@chrisg8989 Charisma can be valuable for other reasons that don’t rely on Grit in its current state. To suggest that Grit is the what is making Charisma viable underscores that it’s not a suitable design choice.
Holy smokes that Initiative system sounds bad. I like the spirit of it but at the end of the day it has to work well mechanically at the table (and my experience with game systems tells me this likely doesn't as it stands now). Hope they manage to massage it into something easier to play with.
Of all the DC20 rules I’ve heard, this Initiative system is the first one I’ve actually disliked. It just feels so needlessly complicated, and also it feels like it makes less sense to me. The concept of initiative is to measure how quickly you can react to a combat starting so Dexterity feels like a natural ability to base it on. In this new system, now for some reason your aptitude at talking or stealthing is what decides it, which doesn’t make sense to me. I feel like a better way to implement this kind of situational variability in initiative would be a simple system of benefits or disadvantages based on what you were doing when rolling initiative, maybe if you’re talking to the hostile party you get a bonus but if you’re actively engaged in some other task like picking a lock you get a minus to your roll
The only criticism I really agree with is of the initiative system, but then you went and ruined it by saying you prefer the (also slow and clunky) 5e system 😂. If DC20 is going to be doing back-and-forth side-based initiative, there's no need for it to be so complex. My solution: a simple d20 roll off between the party and the enemies. Each side can modify this roll with levels of advantage from various sources, such as class abilities, monster features, or advantageous situations. High roll goes first, ties go to the PCs. Quick, simple, and efficient.
lol to each their own I suppose :) I’ve never had an issue with 5e initiative ever taking longer than 30 seconds to 1 minute to resolve and have never found it slow or clunky. Even just explaining it is so much easier “everyone rolls a d20, adds their initiative modifier. Order gore form Highest to lowest.” But like I said, to each their own :) no hate here
The initiative rule feels clunky. And how does it work in a boss encounter, say the party fighting a big dragon? Does the entire party go, then the boss? Do you pass back and forth with the boss after every PC turn?
If it's a boss encounter as you describe it, there is no way around all of the party taking a turn, then the boss taking a turn. The only way out of that is other initiative systems that cycle through rounds, then go to a sub round for characters with multiple actions. Like Shadowrun.
My understanding is that as it stands right now the boss would essentially always go 2nd if the players beat the Initiative DC. So it would be Player 1, BBEG, the rest of the group. Or if they don’t beat the DC, then it would be BBEG, the entire group.
I hope DC20's rule do allow for the boss to take multiple turns in a round. That would make the boss much more viable in combat. Maybe for the boss they get 2 or 3 turns per round depending on the party size. This system also allows for the boss to more easily summon minions that can actually do something and be a threat, adding to the fantasy of fighting a powerful evil.
Grit points should turn into something class-specific that everyone can do with their charisma. Inspiring toughness by force of will is good, but high Charisma can influence other PC's specifically within the scope of their own wheelhouse. The fantasy being that the expertise of a charismatic character provides a benefit to the whole party on an ongoing basis or in unquantifiable ways, and this can manifest in moments like combat, saves, or skill checks, even if they aren't directly helping at that moment by spending an AP. Generally, the Help action leverages the knowledge and skill mastery part of character creation to enhance action economy in terms of support. By adding Charisma to a character of any class, they should be better able to support other PC's in the thing they do well as a class. This need not be the same as the Help Action, but a resource like this is leveraging the character's choice of class to support other PC's within the action economy. This preserves class distinction while maintaining the flexibility and individuality of taking any skills you want. And this gives every class their own mechanical reason to take charisma, even if it's not their Prime Modifier. For example: A fighter could spend a point to grant advantage to another PC on an Attack Check, or assist them in executing a Technique by using the fighter's Grit point (maybe call them something else) instead of the other PC's additional AP. A Barbarian could add +1 to the other PC's Physical defense for one attack, or add -1 when they take damage of any type, if they would fall to zero HP otherwise. (the big tough guy grins at you and says to shake it off and get back in the fight). A spellcaster could grant someone advantage on a Mental Check, or reduce Mystical damage. It makes sense that Bards and Commanders be better than anyone else at this kind of support, so a Bard should be able to grant advantage or add +1 to any save, spell, mental or Language Check, or add +1 to the other PC's Mystical Defense for one attack. A Commander should be able to grant advantage on any Attack check, or Physical Defense. Likewise, every class could use high Charisma to support other PCs' checks in certain masteries, regardless of how many actual mastery points they have (but to enhance your own checks, you need the mastery points) Possibilities could be: Rangers can boost Awareness, Animal, Survival, or Nature checks, and attacks against monsters. Rogues can help with any Trade check, or any Acrobatics, Trickery, or Stealth check, and Attacks against Humanoids. Clerics can boost Mystical defense, etc. I love the way DC20 enables any kind of character to be mechanically strong, but let's still make sure that basic choices like class are very impactful too.
On the initiative, I don't see it as exploitable. This is a roleplaying game. If your character decides to suddenly change to another activity because you expect combat (aka meta gaming), they don't gain a bonus from that activity, because why would they? Imagine you are about to fight someone, they are right in front of you and ready to fight, then you start trying to persuade them not to, just to get an initiative bonus: it just wouldn't happen. Because you can't persuade them, they're about to fight you. Roleplay and storytelling comes before mechanics, mechanics are simply a means of translating roleplay. If it can't be translated a certain way, then it isn't, and you find another way. I don't see how this can be exploited, as I think if you allow them to roll a completely unrelated skill for initiative, because they decided to randomly do it, that's more a blame on the GM. But if, for example, a rogue notices combat might start, and starts sneaking for better initiative, I don't see the issue. That is what a rogue would do, that is what you would expect of a rogue during combat.
Compared to 5e, this is the better system. The reason it feels weird is because you started with a different system, so your view is already biased. If you didn't know other system existed and you started with DC20, you would have said the same thing from 5e
DC 20 allows you unlimited creativity blah blah blah flowery vague crap that every TTRPG does including DnD. "But...but...DnD is too restrictive!" You can literally recreate Shang Tsung or Robo Cop in 5E...😅😂 Wheres the restriction? "I hate DnDs initiative system that takes a whole minute to resolve unless your whole table is suffering from brain damage, so lets learn a whole other system. That'll fix everything!" Insightcheck - keep making that money pushing other peoples products. You make a good salesman. Marks - Hey! Its your money. Just dont get mad when most DnD players swipe left and give your DnD clone a hard pass. Stay healthy. Eat a carrot. Take a walk. Have a great day!
I literally said I don’t like DC20’s Initiative and preferred D&D’s. What is wrong with you dude? The fact that you simply cannot understand that people are allowed to enjoy different games simultaneously is legitimately insane. I agree. Go take a walk. Touch grass my dude, you’re too chronically online for your own good.
@Stopdressur It's true. I'm not a Sigma. Why? Because anyone still using beta/alpha/sigma in 2024 are people you don't have to worry about. Those people don't know much. The alpha wolf hypothesis has been thoroughly trashed and left as a smoldering pile of pseudoscience. 😀
*The initiative system is like everything in this game, a super over baked, not thought out 'let's just throw in whatever idea' typical of a novice designer with no clue.* The guy hypothetically simplifies one thing like combining attack and damage rules, hypes of system up as being so streamlined and simple and fast, and then adds three fiddley systems in its place. He clearly has no idea what he's doing and just taking whatever idea from wherever and throwing it in, this influencer era of the tabletop RPG industry is so frustrating.
The first time i've heard the phrase influencer era for rpgs, it feels pretty accurate. There's so many people vying for the crown of being THE dnd replacement. Most of them only have traction due to having a following rather than having actual designers behind it. Colville's rpg is the only one I can think of being head lined by someone with serious game dev experience
BACK DC20 ON KICKSTARTER:
www.kickstarter.com/projects/thedungeoncoach/dc20?ref=dumloc
This felt like a really well balanced critique of the system. There's a lot to love, but there's also *a lot* to love.
Haha yeah that’s pretty much it.
Playing Pathfinder/DC 20/Daggerheart is like playing the game Tekken and thinking you're better than the Mortal Kombat players.
"Mortal Kombat is too restrictive! Tekken is where it's at! If you want to play real fighting games, you play Tekken."
So you stand alone at the arcade machine while a mob of kids surround the Motal Kombat machine. Because one is clearly more "cool" than the other. Some people just want to be contrarians and think that's a virtue in itself.😂😅
@@007ohboy PLAYING those games, I completely disagree. If you play ANY game and think that makes you better than others, then you're a tool.
I think having default skills for initiative based on the type of pre-combat encounter would really help. Example, insight for social, awareness for exploration, and a simple combat check (martial attack or spell check) for a basic combat. If a different/more appropriate check is required then the GM would call for it. With a more experienced group I could see the burden for choosing the initiative checks being placed on the players to speed stuff up and if a player seems to be only choosing their best skills all the time and not the thematically correct skills then the GM would have a one on one talk with them about it.
This is a good idea that still keeps the core idea of the system but streamlines it a bit more. Definitely a step in the right direction.
I have been playing a lot of dc20 and we defoulted too a d20 roll plus prime and it works fine for us
Unless a situation happends whare players ware alredy doing things before combad started then we use the appropriate skill wich the gm calls for you can however say i think this is investigation and nor awareness becouse i was looking at something specific
I do agree with the sentiment you shared about Grit points, but the primary reason they exist is to give Charisma a tangible effect in combat, while still feeling like an appropriate ability for Charismatic characters. Otherwise Charisma could easily feel like the RP attribute, and nothing else.
Great video, as always, IC!
This is exactly the type of videos I wanted to watch about DC20. If I go over Coach's channel, of course Imma hear purely good things about the system, I wanted to know the good, but also the bad and the meh, that what REALLY would inform me if the game is for me or not. So, thank you
As far as tracking the various points, my table uses colored tokens. At low levels it's easy to manage. We'll have to see how it works out for a 20th level Archmage!
Great review - one of the only reviews where the depth of the game materials was introduced, come critiques offered, and honest opinions given - refreshing, rewarding, and it why I follow your content closely since I discovered your channel. Bravo!
Thank you SO much! That truly means a lot!
My group has played the alpha playtest. Our insights:
- Prime skill means you must multiclass. There is no penalty to multiclass because no class is MAD any more. Therefore you can combo spells and martial abilities way better.
- Spell duels are somewhat fun but also tedious. Everyone has spellcasting (see above) so the party always kept someone’s spells free. Basically no NPC got spells off.
- 4-action needs to separate movement from actions. 5e gets this right - moving while attacking is more fun.
- 4 actions at any point is cool.
- Initiative was weird - you always take turns between enemy and players, so there wasn’t much incentive to bother setting up carefully or anything.
- There is a little of the 4e problem: each class has a different way of doing the same thing. This is not as bad as 4e was, but it was noticeable.
- At this stage, we aren’t sure the added crunch added anything. The skills / talents system slowed us down as we had to keep looking stuff up.
I haven't gotten to play this yet myself and from the outside it feels like a lot of crunch for the sake of crunch. Glad to see someone talk more in depth about the feeling of actually playing because every youtube reveiwer is only talking about the game theory of it with vague praise.
You can can break up your movement by moving before and after taking a different
Action. So you can move while attacking. Unless you meant something else?
@@caldrich123 Since movement takes 1AP, and you only get 5 squares, it takes two resources from you to move. Since you want 1AP free for reactions for most of the time, you are disincentivised from moving.
5e you can move without it affecting anything else, DC20 you cannot. So you have to weigh up moving, attacking and moving again.
@@HorizonOfHope But from what I gather, movement points you gain from using move action can be spent at any time during your round. The "break up" of your movement that the previous commenter mentioned likely references that. If you are 2 spaces away from a target, move action gives 5 spaces of movement. You can then move 2 steps, attack, then more 3 more steps before your turn is over. So at least it's only 2 actions, not 3 actions. This is unlike what I recall Pathfinder 2 doing, where it would cost 3 actions to move, attack, move..
@@hobodohlansteve8795 As in: it should cost 0AP.
Good to hear someone speak to the weaknesses of the system
I've tested DC20 twice. I often had players perform an Awareness check for initiative while simultaneously finding out if they were surprised by the combat. It's not exactly in the spirit of what the DC20 rules had in mind, but it works at my table.
It seems like Awareness would easily become the default... Which effectively makes Initiative a Prime check... which... Isn't terrible, but it means everyone's rolling the same modifier.
@@guamae Not everyone will take Mastery in Awareness, but effectively yes, you're right.
I think part of why grit exists in DC20 is because of the prime modifier mechanic. since classes aren't tied to specific ability scores, giving each ability score equal combat utility is suddenly much more important so that every ability is mechanically viable as a prime modifier. Grit is definitely a bit clunky and feels weird as a universal mechanic coming from D&D, but it's probably the most thematic way to give charisma combat utility. if you want to get rid of grit points you have to come up with an alternative way to value charisma in combat.
I'm pretty sure this is also why initiative uses skill checks instead of a flat modifier, the only ability that makes sense for a permanent initiative modifier is agility, and that would make it the strongest stat like dexterity in D&D. When specific abilities aren't tied to classes they all have to be balanced so that they're all good choices.
I will admit that I don't know what the combat value is for intelligence since I don't have the PDFs, but I know there has to be one somewhere.
Intelligence gives bonus skill points iirc.
@matthewparker9276 it does yes. It also adds to Mystical Defence.
I agree with your take on Grit, it feels like is another strange thing to track. But was added to try and help make Charisma more appealing
Had my 1st playtest with the free rules (backed the 0.5 alpha) for a party of 6 level one new players (soon to be 7).
A month prior to the story, an earthquake rocked the land and unearthed an artifact deep within a forest where it was found by a goblin commander and gave it psionic abilities. With its new powers, it started raiding the surrounding villages and mercenaries were called in for help but never arrived, thus leading the party to being called in for help. I can't wait for someone to make the connection that with the commander being a psychic goblin, it's only a matter of time until he's on his deathbed and the party realizes it's an elaborate setup for a "mind goblin DEEZ NUTS!" joke
Grit exist to give more weight to Charisma beside social encounters. Having it locked behind classes I think would be a bad idea, however having a basic use of grit that everyone can use BUT then having each class have a way of using grit a different way does seem interesting. Does that just create more scope creep though? hmmm
Charisma is also used for taunt kind of maneuvers and the coach said theyre working on a system surrounding that, charisma will have a lot of use anyway. the system is bloated with things to track, GP is definitely something id be considering removing
Yeah, I understand the Grit gives more value to Charisma, I said so in the video too! My point wasn’t so much to lock Grit behind classes, but rather the things that it does can likely be better folded into classes and subclass features.
Grit right now gives Charisma added value but that’s not to say that other things can’t be added to give weight to Charisma.
Correct me if i am wrong but all Atributes could be used to be your Prime Atribute (the one that you use for Atacks, spells and other skills), so you can have Charisma as your Prime Atribute.
@@ignaciovitale7806 Yep, your highest stat (normally a 3 at level 1) is used for your Prime, no matter what stat it is.
I was not excited about grit - not another type of point to track! They should look at PF1 and see how charisma can affect combat by inflicting mental status effects like fear through a display of prowess or when you deliver a particularly devastating blow it terrifies the enemies who just saw it
On the whole "issue" of custom skills for Initiative, and someone always using their best skills in case initiative breaks out...
HA! You've activated my Trap Card: Accidentally playing your role!
lol that wasn’t my point :P
If someone is actually doing the thing that’s fine. If someone just immediately starts doing something that makes no sense so they get a better roll because they sense a fight is about to break out, that’s a totally different thing.
@@InsightCheck Yeah, I suppose. Though they'd also have to sense that coming somehow, which is the other trap card: Paying enough attention to the game to notice when combat breaks out!
Although it definitely doesn't help if they initiate combat all the time.
I actually kinda like it from a certain POV, and in a certain context it kinda seems like that kind of action would actually cause combats to happen; the fantasy equivalent of the cowboy unclicking the button on his holster, and the other party assuming he's gonna draw.
It's more of the problem that it encourages a certain style of play that's akin to having a hammer and turning all problems into nails. This can lead to frustration. For instance if we have a party that's all built around charisma (very viable in IC from what i can tell), you may get grumpy players when the enemies refuse to talk first and the GM denies them initiative rolls based on social abilities.
@@joshl4751 I can see how that could be a catalyst for bigger problems.
But for a group like that, I think the GM might need to talk to their Players and set expectations about the kind of Campaign that's being run. As for letting them roll initiative with Charisma skills all the time... as long as they're doing something appropriate, then yeah, I'd say go for it.
Or... session 0 perhaps?
Bonus: If a GM thinks trying to roll Initiative with just Charisma is an issue, how would they explain it being worse than with just Dexterity in D&D 5e?
I dont think stamina will be difficult to remember because it is an encouragement of the playstyle you desire refilling your only resource as a martial. Its pretty intuitive so it will work well imo
Fighters now have a technique starting at level 1, and are the only class to have one right from the start.
As far as players trying to min-max initiative rolls, there’s a simple fix: don’t be a weaselly player and be an open-minded GM. It really is as simple as that. It’s only a problem if you’re being troublesome.
It creates a dynamic, creative situation and is interesting, only being slow if you let it be. It should carry itself and people need to trust the table.
I house-rule initiative because I really like how Savage Worlds does it. The back and forth is cool and I may bring that part into my initiative somehow.
Honestly I consider replacing the initiative systems of many games I play with Savage Worlds initiative. It's just so fast and easy.
@@Pit_Wizard and with DC20's shared turns rule, it happens a lot more frequently (if two players draw the same number)
Someone pointed out that Moves have the negative side of removing possible player creativity.
DM/GM might not allow you to grapple someone because you don't have that manuver 😂 same with pushing, disarming and tripping.
Like manuver should feel improved version of the basic action or something. ❤
I agree that initiative at the start of the fight is too complex and pause the story at the worst time. Maybe have it as a optional rule for special situation, but use simple roll "which side starts" for most combat.
Also order by player initiative complicate things. My take would be to let players choose order as they see fit.
I think we might be confusing "slow" with "unengaging" though. The reason initiative slogged in D&D was because everyone took a break to do math. While in DC20, everyone will be explaining what they're doing. Players keep track of the initiative as well as what they're doing.
Yeah... I definitely think they should just tie Initiative to Prime Modifier/Awareness and call it a day, this "pick your Skill by doing something before the Encounter" is just going to be a bad idea in practice, even if it sounds cooler in concept.
I like your right to business style. Good video. Thanks
I was following DC20 thruout the development. He was a 5e guy until he played a bit of Pathfinder & fell in love with it, so he made his game Pathfinder 2.5. Pathfinder guys are just modern GURPS guys: use whatever mechanic seems most "realistic", ignoring how it actually complicates and slows down the game.
Here's how to fix initiative: GM and players roll 1d12 (great die; needs more love)--not everybody individually. Higher roll goes first, deciding who among them. Then other side goes. But... in their class features, martials and rogues can sometimes take a feat that gives a bonus to their group's initiative. Likewise, certain super-quick monsters get a bonus. That's it. That's all you need.
What I want from Grit, is a resource to say "I'm trying *extra Super Hard* on this thing.
In World of Darkness games, Shadowrun, Warhammer Fantasy, they all have a limited resource to get bonus dice, or a reroll in emergency situations.... I've always wanted that for d20 games, and even added a house-rule that all players get a per-session Bonus d20 they can add to any roll (this was instituted after a dispiriting string of TPKs the party suffered 😬)
Solid video, man! It kind of makes it feel like the TTRPG community is contributing to the game. I'm not sure that I super agree with everything here, but I do hope these things are considered! The better the game the better the fun! Everyone can converse over the nerdy math stuff. I'll look forward to playing with the finished product!
Thank you so much!
And yeah it’s definitely still a work in progress! There’s a lot to look forward to and some things are in great shape now and others need a bit of work! I’m eagerly looking forward to want the game will become!
I've been using back and forth initiative as a house rule on D&D for years now and it's something I like a lot
Oh for sure. It can absolutely work well. For me, it's less about the back and forth and more about how we get to the back and forth stage.
Ive a couple players interested in this system so im following it. It seems to have a good vision of what it wants to do, but systems definitely need refinement and consolidation for this to pull us from 5e or pf2e. Best of luck to the team, and thanks for the content.
I haven't played the game yet, but I've already made a spreadsheet for myself as the GM and for my PCS for tracking all of the AP SP and MP. It is truly not that difficult to do, and I think people are worried about it because they it's something they're not used to.
You can just use tally marks on a spreadsheet on your computer. Or if you want to be all analog, you can just have a counter of some sort or physical tokens that you use.
Correction: the fighter gets an extra technique from a level 1 feature. This isn't included on the class chart.
Great catch :)
@@InsightCheck it's one of my current issues with DC20 - most classes have extra of something from a class feature, and this isn't shown on their chart. Casters are universally shown as having 3 mana points at level 1 despite their spellcasting feature adding their prime mod to that number (so every caster should start with 6).
This definitely feels like a system that will benefit from VTT integration. Having the computer know when to replenish SP or track AP will smooth out a lot of the growing pains
My thouhgt on techniques complexity is that I think it's only fair that they re as complex as spells.
To track Stamina and Mana, and Grit Points (if not folded into a Class as you suggest) are easy to track with tokens or a counter. That said, the digital version will likely track it for you.
Love to hear your take!
I love how the system is going and the spirit of what their trying to do with skill for initiative but so far is clunky.
I hope they can tweak it a bit more to make it simple
I am eager to playtest about the speed/slowness of combat turns, comparing martial versus spellcaster. My guess = a little slower all around but not terrible
I think this is likely.
There’s a lot of stuff but like I mentioned most of it is fairly streamlined and approachable so I think it’ll be reasonably paced.
I dont know if this was already mentioned (commenting @ 6 minute mark) but it almost sounds to me like the 5e initiative style would fit well with the dc20 action points. Look at the fact that you can do more than just react at any time with your ap, and at the of your turn refreshing ur AP. You could dump all your ap, and it hasnt gotten to your turn yet, this compensates for the issue of being caught in last place. Though it probably makes more sense to have both sides alternate, mixed with the ap “act” at any time, giving a more direct feeling that everything is happening at the same time.
There is a Brazilian TTRPG called Tormenta 20. I think they get the Iniciative right. It is just a skill like steath or persuasion. You can spend points to get better as in any other skill in the game. I think something like that would work better here too
I’m really excited to dm a game for my group to hopefully make them transition from 5e. Martial making a difference is a big point. One of my player has given up on martial in 5e because he just find them too boring and monotonous. Go DC20!!!
If they go with the back and forth order, and a DC to beat, I would probably just make it one relevant check from whoever essentially initiated the combat. I guess you'd still want to determine order from everyone on the player side. From reading it, initiative does seem like something they're still working out the kinks for.
But yeah, I honestly loved the iteration of the rules I read, but I do agree that it seems like a lot for someone to remember. That has really been my only critique from reading the rules. For martials at least, from level 1 you get the three basic combat maneuvers, at least one from the weapon(s) you use, on top of four more you choose - on top of class abilities and everything else. Then there's the techniques, which my initial gut reaction almost feels extra and unnecessary (although some are cool). In some cases they feel redundant with maneuvers, just more powerful, but I think the intention is to add class specific ones if I'm not mistaken. I'm curious to see where they go.
Otherwise I generally really love so many of the design choices here. I feel like there are so many opportunities for player expression and it just kind of does all of the things I would have wanted from a 5e/PF2 hybrid (which is something I genuinely wanted after first reading PF2).
Your video made me think that grit points should be tied to class-specific maneuvers, like rogues and warlocks increasing damage, fighters and paladins reducing damage, bards and commanders affecting saves, etc
The assessment that DC20 lies between 5E and PF2 in complexity is accurate. My players require systems less complex than BECMI to not be overwhelmed.
Yeah the initiative system seems interesting, but also slow and clunky.
I've played around with my players using their highest stat before as their initiative, if they can articulate how they will do it. For example, an intelligent person sees the patterns and the next moves to make, a dexterous person has faster reaction speeds, a charismatic person is used to be a quick thinker and improv, a strong person has great muscle memory. No one has used con or wis at my table yet, but I imagine high con could be interpreted as conditioning and always ready to spring into action, like coiled metal springs. A high wisdom might be a deep awareness of their surroundings
I think I also do not like the initiative thing.
Using stealth or performance for rolls can be great, but those should be granted by a feat or a boon or a class feature, it should not be for everyone.
I don't see a problem with stamina, it's way better that the mess for fear and hope in daggerheart. I'd just do the same thing that I do with HP: put the total and the amount that I substact/add in a different sheet of paper, it's not that hard
I really liked this video!
I have an issue with the stamina system versus the Mana system. Stamina is regained while fighting and at the start of combat. Mana is only regained after a long rest. I haven't seen enough of the spells to see if they are so freaking powerful that they justify this disparity.
the initiative will be abused 100%. the add 1 damage or make it hit one more enemy is the same for spellcasters, maybe it'll be like retail wow, everyone has different classes but they all do the same exact thing
Dc20 does seem overly complex.
But i do like there being a mechanical combat benefit to charisma. Grit is a way to do that. But like most rules in dc20, its very mathy.
Overall, for people who want a rules system thats very rules dense, i think theyll love it.
I think people who like simple streamlined games will hate it
I'm kind of curious what the "net complexity" is when compared to 5e. Compared to a champion fighter, the IC fighter has more complexity, but compared to a BM fighter the stamina points feel pretty comparable, but grit points are an additional resource beyond (although fighters have to manage some other resources: second wind, action surge, etc.). Most casters on the other hand seem simpler because mana points are a single pooled resource as opposed to having spell slots which is a glut of resources. If grit points are no more complex than say channel divinity or the alternative uses for wild shape, than I think for most casters you are net simpler in IC than D&D 5e.
I do think IC has intentionally avoided making any character as plain as a champion fighter and I think that's a good thing. I think you're just going to need some training wheels type ideas for introducing players who are not familiar with tactical combat at all.
Nah, Grit should be built in like it is, Grit is a great idea, it actually captures the feeling of a character's force of will making an impact.
3 wizard players resent martials not sucking.
Martials didn't suck in 3.5 either. Well, not after the Tome of Battle - Book of Nine Swords.
I love most rules in DC20 afaik them. The initiative system is a hard pass though. It feels like it was changed just to be different. Were I to play it, I would just revert to standard rolling in order.
Haha yeah that was kind of my thoughts too. I would at least test it out a few times but I don’t see how it’s a true improvement over what we have in 5e.
D20 + prime modifier then go in order is the most logical. The thing you were doing before combat is most likely using your best skill anyway.
Just want to keep in mind that the monsters will be created with a back and forth initiative and may not work as well in the DND style.
Personally, the popcorn method is something a lot of people homebrew into their games so I'm eager to see how it works out. I already use PF2e initiative rules where whatever you were doing is your initiative. It adds no additional time at all.
@@XanderHarris1023 Well, I like actually having a skill that makes you better at initiative, it's a choice to make for char creation
So the Initiative system has 2 parts really, Unique skill check, and combat order. Both can be chocked up to preference, so I'll give my 2 cents.
I prefer the unique skill check vs static skill as it feels more connected to what was happening before combat. Why would I make a perception roll if I was trying to intimidate or I fluency the NpC.
I prefer the flow of back and forth initiative. yeah it's less swing but ther is a little more nuance as well. I also feel this can actually speed combat up. First encounter DCs will set ahead of time so the GM isn't doing that on the fly, and no rolling for NPCs, makes up for any potential delay with players. Then the pacing allows the GM to tell player their up next while the NPC goes.
Also if multiple plays beat the DC they do get to go together, or they can delay their turn to work together as well.
I have run several one shots and have an ongoing campaign in DC20. I really enjoy the initiative system so much that I have incorporated it into my 5e game and it made a noticeable difference.
I wonder if I feel differently because I'm just getting into TTRPGs and not been playing for too long (two months), but almost everything you're not sure of sounds like a pro to me when compared to DnD
Initiative isnt exploitable bc in pathfinder it isnt. Its dm dependable. Generaly is very hard to do anything besides sneaking before combat
my friend plays a lvl 7 eldritch knight and can't remember that he has some of the spells. tracking points will be impossible to him
Initiative is wack and needs to change. A lot of the martial stuff sounds so cool, but I am really afraid it will end up too slow to enjoy. Seems like a lot of chances for a plus +1 here, an advantage there, an extra damage from this feature, then disadvantage on your first attack, etc until it takes 30 seconds to remember what you have. Then forget about the DM keeping track of all of the enemy's actions, that will be really tough.
On the plus side, maritals seem to finally have a lot of good options for what to do in combat besides, "I attack twice". It makes me very excited for them!
Thanks for the nice summary!
Rolling alao has another issue in its last example where the gm can just arbitrarily decide that you dont get your bonus. You should at minimum get your prime stat as a bonus imo.
That's not really the intent, and good GM wouldn't be trying that either.
It's meant for the GM to say use something else when the player tries to use their stealth in the middle of a bright, open courtyard.
Sure it can feel arbitrary, but shouldn't be an issue if you have a GM running a fair fun game.
@@martinbowyer7906 yea but in the example text it doesn't say the GM told the bard to pick a different skill. He just rolled flat because he chose a bad skill
@@cloudeon3468 I'll give you that the Bard roll a flat check, however that isn't because he picked a bad skill, its because they didn't pick anything. From the text "The Bard is absently plucking their lute, unable to think of
anything else to do." it sounds like the player of the Bard wasn't really engaging in the scene even before combat starting. So they get a flat check, seems very on point to me for a character who wasn't really paying attention anyways.
I hate d&d 5e initiative because it's glacially slow. This doesn't feel much better. I'm currently developing my own system, and I have it where there are 3 initiative groups to keep the pace of getting combat started faster. It might change, though. In mine, everyone rolls (2D6+modifier) and the group of players who meet or beat the enemies go first in whatever order they like, the. Enemies, then slow players. I'm going to try and develop a combo system where there are actions you can do that require 2 players in the same initiative group.
The initiative thing is only a problem if you got problem players. Also if the rogue wants to start sneaking around right before combat breaks out. Tell them no. Especially if it makes no sense given the context. That's what the DM is for, be the Arbiter of the game.
I think this is an unnecessarily reductive statement that doesn't really provide anything other than "blame" and even within your statement, it is contradictory. You say it's "only a problem if you've got problem players" but then go on to say that it's the job of the DM to be the "arbiter of the game" so by your own admission, if the DM isn't doing that, they are also the problem.
The whole point I was making about the Initiative system was much less about the min/max possibilities of it and just that fact that it is slow and requires so many steps to even explain. If someone asks "how does Initiative work" you then have to explain Encounter DCs, Initiative DCs, how initiative checks differ across characters, how ordering works if they beat the DC or not, then that the GM gets to just decide the order for the enemies, but only on the first round... It's just a lot and has absolutely nothing to do with having "problem players". Sometimes a design is just a whiff and that's ok. The game is still in SUPER early development.
@InsightCheck I 100% disagree. This initiative system is way less convoluted than 5e. Once the players understand the system, initiative takes about 30 seconds. All the info you need is if they party beat the DC and what order the players are going. Boom done, combat starts. No one is waiting 10min for the DM to roll initiative for every enemy and then putting them all in order... 😴
And your take on Grit is just lazy.
Grit actually provides Charisma with combat relevance and helps with the system goal of having no dump stats.
If Charisma has zero impact on combat, guess what, every min-max build will be "dump Charisma" anything other than Charisma being your prime modifier would a net positive.
Maybe actually play the system before you try and critique it.
@chrisg8989 Charisma can be valuable for other reasons that don’t rely on Grit in its current state. To suggest that Grit is the what is making Charisma viable underscores that it’s not a suitable design choice.
Holy smokes that Initiative system sounds bad. I like the spirit of it but at the end of the day it has to work well mechanically at the table (and my experience with game systems tells me this likely doesn't as it stands now). Hope they manage to massage it into something easier to play with.
Of all the DC20 rules I’ve heard, this Initiative system is the first one I’ve actually disliked. It just feels so needlessly complicated, and also it feels like it makes less sense to me. The concept of initiative is to measure how quickly you can react to a combat starting so Dexterity feels like a natural ability to base it on. In this new system, now for some reason your aptitude at talking or stealthing is what decides it, which doesn’t make sense to me. I feel like a better way to implement this kind of situational variability in initiative would be a simple system of benefits or disadvantages based on what you were doing when rolling initiative, maybe if you’re talking to the hostile party you get a bonus but if you’re actively engaged in some other task like picking a lock you get a minus to your roll
The d20 is very inconsistent and swingy. A +1 vs a +5 is only a slight increase. About 40% of the time, the +5 will lose initiative to the +1.
Can't affor to support DC20, hope other people do so I can buy them 2025 😂 based on kickstarted I have nothing to worry.
The only criticism I really agree with is of the initiative system, but then you went and ruined it by saying you prefer the (also slow and clunky) 5e system 😂. If DC20 is going to be doing back-and-forth side-based initiative, there's no need for it to be so complex.
My solution: a simple d20 roll off between the party and the enemies. Each side can modify this roll with levels of advantage from various sources, such as class abilities, monster features, or advantageous situations. High roll goes first, ties go to the PCs. Quick, simple, and efficient.
lol to each their own I suppose :)
I’ve never had an issue with 5e initiative ever taking longer than 30 seconds to 1 minute to resolve and have never found it slow or clunky. Even just explaining it is so much easier “everyone rolls a d20, adds their initiative modifier. Order gore form
Highest to lowest.”
But like I said, to each their own :) no hate here
The initiative rule feels clunky. And how does it work in a boss encounter, say the party fighting a big dragon? Does the entire party go, then the boss? Do you pass back and forth with the boss after every PC turn?
If it's a boss encounter as you describe it, there is no way around all of the party taking a turn, then the boss taking a turn. The only way out of that is other initiative systems that cycle through rounds, then go to a sub round for characters with multiple actions. Like Shadowrun.
My understanding is that as it stands right now the boss would essentially always go 2nd if the players beat the Initiative DC. So it would be Player 1, BBEG, the rest of the group.
Or if they don’t beat the DC, then it would be BBEG, the entire group.
I hope DC20's rule do allow for the boss to take multiple turns in a round. That would make the boss much more viable in combat. Maybe for the boss they get 2 or 3 turns per round depending on the party size. This system also allows for the boss to more easily summon minions that can actually do something and be a threat, adding to the fantasy of fighting a powerful evil.
@@deadiraterobot I'm also hoping for this!
Grit points should turn into something class-specific that everyone can do with their charisma. Inspiring toughness by force of will is good, but high Charisma can influence other PC's specifically within the scope of their own wheelhouse. The fantasy being that the expertise of a charismatic character provides a benefit to the whole party on an ongoing basis or in unquantifiable ways, and this can manifest in moments like combat, saves, or skill checks, even if they aren't directly helping at that moment by spending an AP. Generally, the Help action leverages the knowledge and skill mastery part of character creation to enhance action economy in terms of support. By adding Charisma to a character of any class, they should be better able to support other PC's in the thing they do well as a class. This need not be the same as the Help Action, but a resource like this is leveraging the character's choice of class to support other PC's within the action economy. This preserves class distinction while maintaining the flexibility and individuality of taking any skills you want. And this gives every class their own mechanical reason to take charisma, even if it's not their Prime Modifier.
For example:
A fighter could spend a point to grant advantage to another PC on an Attack Check, or assist them in executing a Technique by using the fighter's Grit point (maybe call them something else) instead of the other PC's additional AP.
A Barbarian could add +1 to the other PC's Physical defense for one attack, or add -1 when they take damage of any type, if they would fall to zero HP otherwise. (the big tough guy grins at you and says to shake it off and get back in the fight).
A spellcaster could grant someone advantage on a Mental Check, or reduce Mystical damage.
It makes sense that Bards and Commanders be better than anyone else at this kind of support, so a Bard should be able to grant advantage or add +1 to any save, spell, mental or Language Check, or add +1 to the other PC's Mystical Defense for one attack. A Commander should be able to grant advantage on any Attack check, or Physical Defense.
Likewise, every class could use high Charisma to support other PCs' checks in certain masteries, regardless of how many actual mastery points they have (but to enhance your own checks, you need the mastery points)
Possibilities could be: Rangers can boost Awareness, Animal, Survival, or Nature checks, and attacks against monsters. Rogues can help with any Trade check, or any Acrobatics, Trickery, or Stealth check, and Attacks against Humanoids. Clerics can boost Mystical defense, etc.
I love the way DC20 enables any kind of character to be mechanically strong, but let's still make sure that basic choices like class are very impactful too.
On the initiative, I don't see it as exploitable. This is a roleplaying game. If your character decides to suddenly change to another activity because you expect combat (aka meta gaming), they don't gain a bonus from that activity, because why would they? Imagine you are about to fight someone, they are right in front of you and ready to fight, then you start trying to persuade them not to, just to get an initiative bonus: it just wouldn't happen. Because you can't persuade them, they're about to fight you. Roleplay and storytelling comes before mechanics, mechanics are simply a means of translating roleplay. If it can't be translated a certain way, then it isn't, and you find another way. I don't see how this can be exploited, as I think if you allow them to roll a completely unrelated skill for initiative, because they decided to randomly do it, that's more a blame on the GM. But if, for example, a rogue notices combat might start, and starts sneaking for better initiative, I don't see the issue. That is what a rogue would do, that is what you would expect of a rogue during combat.
Steamrolling enemies is astoundingly boring as both player and dm
Sorry.
The manuevers and techniques are not thought out at all. They slow the game down, even more so, for little benefit.
It does not sound too complicated but still has too much of the DNA of DnD in it.
first?
Nailed it!
OMG a complex RPG…. Play a video game if you don’t want to keep track of resources.
lol I think you completely missed the point of the video…
it does kinda suck tho, this game is just weird
Compared to 5e, this is the better system. The reason it feels weird is because you started with a different system, so your view is already biased. If you didn't know other system existed and you started with DC20, you would have said the same thing from 5e
DC 20 allows you unlimited creativity blah blah blah flowery vague crap that every TTRPG does including DnD.
"But...but...DnD is too restrictive!"
You can literally recreate Shang Tsung or Robo Cop in 5E...😅😂
Wheres the restriction?
"I hate DnDs initiative system that takes a whole minute to resolve unless your whole table is suffering from brain damage, so lets learn a whole other system. That'll fix everything!"
Insightcheck - keep making that money pushing other peoples products. You make a good salesman.
Marks - Hey! Its your money. Just dont get mad when most DnD players swipe left and give your DnD clone a hard pass.
Stay healthy. Eat a carrot. Take a walk. Have a great day!
I literally said I don’t like DC20’s Initiative and preferred D&D’s. What is wrong with you dude?
The fact that you simply cannot understand that people are allowed to enjoy different games simultaneously is legitimately insane.
I agree. Go take a walk. Touch grass my dude, you’re too chronically online for your own good.
@Stopdressur It's true. I'm not a Sigma. Why? Because anyone still using beta/alpha/sigma in 2024 are people you don't have to worry about. Those people don't know much. The alpha wolf hypothesis has been thoroughly trashed and left as a smoldering pile of pseudoscience. 😀
*The initiative system is like everything in this game, a super over baked, not thought out 'let's just throw in whatever idea' typical of a novice designer with no clue.* The guy hypothetically simplifies one thing like combining attack and damage rules, hypes of system up as being so streamlined and simple and fast, and then adds three fiddley systems in its place. He clearly has no idea what he's doing and just taking whatever idea from wherever and throwing it in, this influencer era of the tabletop RPG industry is so frustrating.
The first time i've heard the phrase influencer era for rpgs, it feels pretty accurate. There's so many people vying for the crown of being THE dnd replacement. Most of them only have traction due to having a following rather than having actual designers behind it. Colville's rpg is the only one I can think of being head lined by someone with serious game dev experience
You said a lot of rude things about the creator instead of just commenting on the game itself. Weird