I develop IT help desks and even though that’s a (moderately) simple and highly foreseeable project, no code & even low code are simply not worth the limitations they inherently come with 99% of the time.
Fortunately, as a consultant, I'll be the one they call in a year or two when they realize their no code framework was never viable as a solution and now they need a real engineer to fix their stuff No Code frameworks barely even work inside the box they put you in, and since that box is smaller than a shoe box, any solution born from it are just ticking time bombs because the ambitions of the companies using these are not aligned with reality and much less with the contraints of the tools they use like these no code frameworks
But consultants aren‘t real engineers. In big consulting companies there is a huge variance between skilled and unskilled employees because they operate on hire and fire
As a yes-coder looking at low-code is ominous. I strongly suggest you people to take a look at how Wix only uses elements everywhere in the HTML, which heavily compromises SEO. Wanna change it? Maybe pick a custom thumbnail for shareable articles? Maybe setup a dark/light mode toggler? Maybe add custom scroll animations? Your designer had an idea? Too bad. And I'm only talking about front end landing pages. I can only fathom how people use these tools to build more complex stuff. Sure takes a lot of courage to let your business logic dependent on something that can't be debugged. Playstore update? Oops, there goes millions of dollars.
I've come across a number of departments in my career that heavily used Excel. They all had custom macros which nobody reviewed or tested, often no version control. There was plenty of code, it was just bad and had no quality control and wasn't written by Devs.
@@101Mantin case of finance, there are reasons for it to stay this way. Unverified code makes it easier to keep mistakes ongoing. And mistakes in accounting are very useful. Excel is a program that makes the most money in the world. Just by virtue of taxation laws.
I've had a business architect explain to me how "There were 0 programmers on a team of a 100 people that made software FOR A BANK in a no-code tool". When you ask who's going to solve the bugs in the framework, you're going to get the "We have a support contract with the no-code company" answer, or just straight up go to the denial stage. These people believe they can do this, and the problem is they often can. In the end, they even "save money on coding", and offset(as in, offset their discovery in time) invisible expenses like hosting, code maintenance or operations and relicensing costs you'd normally think about doing reasonable software engineering. It's lazier and it does the job(until it doesn't), so it obviously must be the right way.
I'm noticing a theme here: microcontrollers, C, assembly. But is anyone *actually* doing no-code for that kind of system? If so, I agree, that sounds like a bad choice for no-code. But some things can be done well with no code. Take for example a restaurant. All their website needs is social media, menu, pictures of food. They can do that with a drag-and-drop website builder. The criticisms laid out in this video include: - "subscribing to the no-code service costs money." Can't argue with that, it does suck! - "your solution is not as flexible." True, but a restaurant usually doesn't need their site to be that flexible. - "good architecture has to be tailored to the problem." In this case, "static website builder" matches the "I need a static website" problem. Some people in the comments say things like "no-code is for people with no talent". But it's good that a chef who isn't talented at coding is able to update the restaurant's info.
The restaurant example you give make me think you don't understand what the video is talking about. what you have described can be done using tools like wordpress and spotify.. etc which existed for year and didn't spark this type of debate about them. what the video I talking about is the rise of the use of no code tools in project more complex then a small restaurant website, people are literally making SAAS startup using no code tool and not even for simple SAAS ideas which any one with a software background can tell you is a bad idea
@@ZiZou-ry1cm Valid points and I liked your comment. But one day the restaurant owner would want to customize the website in some way to add something new. A feature (or something similar) that his competition probably has on their website - this would need a fundamental and sizeable modification of the code. What then?
@@braydenfulken2495 even though I didn't understand the point you are making (sorry 😅) but in this case service like wordpress have a big library of plugins that can provide any functionality a small website like the restaurant one would ever need and with a quick RUclips search the owner can learn how to configure that plugin. As simple as that. Another thing to keep in mind is the type of app those no code users are trying to build, because building an ecommerce or a blog app is very different then building for example an AI app that can calculate your optimal calories intake based on you lifestyle and and the movement recorded using you phone sensors. I hope I explained my self clearly
@@ZiZou-ry1cm I should give a disclaimer that I'm still a CS student, and not in the industry, though I have built a simple website for an org before using no-code. Which is why I defended it here. I saw the video as a criticism of all no-code. But you're probably right that he's talking about a different kind of software than me. (0:11 "I used to work at a few companies that are developing software exclusively using no-code frameworks.") I'll take your word for it that no-code is bad for big software (especially SaaS), the arguments are pretty convincing.
@@ahdog8 yes, one thing can literally destroy you software company is that you software growing the point that it outgrows the no code framework that is used to build it in which you are stuck and probably can do nothing, you may read about Myspace downfall to understand my point
I completely agree. I've been writing software since the 1980ies, and among the first things I did was program in BASIC and UCSD Pascal with machine code and assembly code subroutines, respectively. Developers of today wouldn't even WANT to understand it, b/c it's "so low-level". But the bare metal and the libraries above it are what is running our computers nowadays. If you don't get familiar with it, you'll never be able to even recognize a problem happening in that arena. I'm working as a full-stack developer (mostly in backend) now and sometimes it's outright weird how coworkers handle problems. But I try to help, of course, if I can, in such cases.
No Code is what brought me into coding ironically. That's something to keep in mind. It lowers the entry barriers for software development in general, which is a good thing imo
@@VoidplayLP Depending on the task it's much faster if you are building a static website of a simple app using no code tools would be a lot easier. If you are building a game engine or a advance photo editor code is probably easier
For our products we do both. We could ofcource build 100% custom applications (which is the most fun🎉). But usually for MVPs or relatively simple products we use some mixture of no-code and low-code tools. For the products we find product-market fit for, we then usually go on to build a more reslient and scalable application 'from scratch'.
So in conclusion- businesses prefer asking for a skill issue. But never want to pay to fix it, got it 😂 Least now I can send this video to my teammates and have a laugh, keep it up brother 💪
in russia we have 1c which is basically a dumbed-down vba that you write entirely in russian. it's not no-code per se, but it's somehow worse. the only ide you can use to write it (since project files are encoded in a proprietary format) looks like windows 3.1. lots of random pop-ups and modals in there too. you don't even get to write your sql queries (also in russian for some reason); you have to use the "query constructor" which erases half your handwritten code around the query and click a hundred buttons for a simple "SELECT col1 FROM table". and don't get me started on the fact it's a government-supported monopoly. there are no alternative solutions for accounting and managing finances and business processes outside the "1c ecosystem".
It going to get worse with LLM coding tools, some manager somewhere will be convinced that OpenAI can produce production level code. Code bases will be poluted and the codepocalyse will happen.
LLMs are only really useful if you know how to code well already, and also know how to write and iterate on queries. They speed up experienced programmers, but produce bugfests for inexperienced programmers.
@@vast634 Indeed i use those a bit together with stackoverflow when looking for solutions for things like my game development projects when getting stuck and so but I would NEVER just copy paste AI generated code right into my game codebase but only use it as a reference + also make sure I know 100% how all of my code works myself. This goes for all programming I do, not just games. Know your code!
@@mindaugask_ In the future the companies training them need to be much more careful to use curated code examples, for example from working well maintained codebases. This should filter out junk code examples from the training set.
some no code or low code platforms can be good. but it can turn out bad when people working with it don't know how it works. an advantage of a low code platform can be integration. usually there are connectors in these platforms, which means that less effort is needed to connect to systems. But that also makes it less flexible.
It make people easy to get started, but is it really benefit for the long term? Those connector allow you to call API without knowing which API endpoint to call and how to authenticate the API. You always need to write code to transform the output However, do you really don’t need to understand and at least be aware of the API, how the API is authenticated, and the limitation about those API for any serious project ? Some connectors are also joke for me, tons of limitation and does not handle token expiration. If it is code, there is always some way to fix it although the solution may not be that easy to average developer. If it is the connector problem, either I am done or I need write other connectorsthat support token expiration. Then what is the point of using the connector ?
I deeply regret the fact I underestimated this video at first. this video is the synthesis of everything that I think about no code stuff. By far the best video I have seen the last 3 days. Also one thing to add, I think everyone that is a serious developer should be against no code,
lol I thought "no code" refers to the principle that "the only code that can't break is the one you don't write", which is a strategy to avoid unnecessary complexity.
A world where everything went to framework use is probably Star Wars. In Star Wars the level of technology kind of kept static in complexity for millennia, as if at one point all the technological advancements like spaceships and robot brains kept pretty much at the same level, and are just copies and adjusted, but not fundamentally improved anymore. Likely because noone understands the software fundamentals and engineering principles anymore, so they are left to just copy whatever was developed before.
No-code has always been something that's fell through in the long run. In the Java era they were making drag and drop UML frameworks to produce Java code, now its the same thing but for web development. What always survives is actual, real code.
4:08 why are you implying APIs are bad? What’s your alternative to Vulkan or OpenGL? What about the Win32 API? You could make an argument that overutilizing libraries is similar to low code, but APIs are often just fairly nessecary to interface with some things.
We always need to learn the tool well, what they are designed for and what is the limitation. No matter it is no code or framework, but code based is always more flexible than no code by the nature of abstraction. And libraries is further more flexible than framework I believe why many no code people have no idea what is under the hood is because No code tool is very difficult to attract good developer, because the career path is highly restricted with the tool and the ecosystem.
I started with wordpress because it was easy, but it quickly become complicated for the most stupidest things, so I started learning web development, and now I hate working with it, I still have to, but at least now I understand better how to work around problems
From my perspective, no-code tools have been available since I was a kid and we were even using them to LEARN how to CODE later 😂 I thought they were boring too!!
Age-old tendency and the dream of management - reduce or eliminate need for competent programmers / IT people, and turn it into a burger shop kind of operation. Of course, now there is much more tooling available ( frameworks, AI, remote work / outsourcing, firece job competition ) to bring this dream closer to reality. Sad but true - it is not a good time to be any employee.
I am a programmer and an IT person. I'm in favor of keeping competent programmers / IT people, and doing things reasonably, adequately, maintainably, within reason. Management who doesn't understand programming / IT always tries to cut corners beyond what is reasonable, and doesn't see issues like dependencies, technical debt, lack of control over company's essential codebase / infrastructure, and companies end up at the mercy of all these externally run systems and with no recourse available when sh!t hits the fan in one of any number of ways..
The prime example why no code is not better UE5 blueprints While yes you can do things much easier and faster The moment i need smth a little more complicated/custom blueprints start to give out + any complicated algorithm is much difficulter to code in blueprints then c++
Can fully agree, Blueprints are totally great for smaller scripts but for bigger things i aways turn to C++ or at least script my own BP nodes using C++ that contains all complexity in one single or a few nodes thus reducing the mess in BP. Sure there are lots of ways to organize the nodes and so but still. They are also after all meant to be used together BP and C++ when working in Unreal.
I had a friend once get me a client that wanted the website in webflow , and while it started great , i still had to use javascript to get certain things working like they wanted , so i really don't see the point of no code unless it's for something completely static or a prototype
I used to use no-code stuff to work on games. I think the future of coding is going to be very different with the use of AI. I don't believe the fundamentals will change very much. Still gotta learn about traditional coding theory. But, I think AI will make it easier to write code quicker provided that people know what they are doing. EDIT: To be more specific, I think folks will be required to at least understand code still in that they can read whats happening and understand it. I think in the future, people will be writing code in english and then having AI transcribe it in whatever language.
This is just a cyclic phase that programmers best ignore. The first of these that managers tried to use to threaten my future, was 4GLs back in the 1990's. I realised they were unmaintainable, at risk of the company selling them going bust, and just boringly limited in what they could do. Nothing has changed. Expect this sort of rubbish every few years. Refuse to use them. Dump your job if they are forced on you. Otherwise, if you put no code on your resume, expect long term unemployment. Real programmers don't do no code 👨💻
i think he dissed java again with the boxing ring, but im not sure what he meant no code is good, it makes people more productive but it cant be used for everything good practices is worse than no code because it interferes with the actual coding and should never be followed
3:50 let me introduce you to citizen development. One day I will find whoever invented that concept… idk what I’ll do when I find them but just know that day will come.
My team uses both python for our microservices and Outsystems for anything that requires an UI for an end-user. While I'm not the biggest fan of python I have no problems working with it, however I get physically sick every time I know I'm going to have to open Outsystems. Knowing I'm going to have to fiddle with those fucking blocks for hours, creating an abhorrent and hard to follow abomination of nested blocks I can barely wrap my head around when a hundred lines of easy to read code would've achieved the same thing is anxiety inducing. A lot of the time what I need to do can't be done out of the box so I'm going to be writing a plugin in C# or custom JS blocks (which is somehow worse than just writing js) anyway completely negating the supposed benefits of low/no-code. I mean I guess I can shit out basic webpages "faster" than I could by typing everything by hand, but this can be solved in better ways.
"do you think it will be free?" Considering how many business people assume you can replace a 50.000$ p.a. person with a 20€ per month AI - subscription while the AI Company burns through billions of dollars, it's not far off to assume someone really thinks that.
'No code' is excellent tool if you're not planning on writing any code. For everything else, like enterprise systems that are in business of making profit, ... you may wanna learn to code.
theres many example in my country where an organization that tries to make some money using nocode... then end up spending more money and more problems
I'm going to quickly start off by saying that I'm no supporter of no-code OR code. The reason I'm making this comment is because I think you were waaay too harsh on no-code in this video. Also my grammer isn't perfect, please forgive me. So. Let me give you a little perspective: Little Timmy is sitting at his computer, making stuff, dragging colorful blocks on top of each other. All is going well until Little Timmy realises that he can't do something he really wants. His palette is limited to only five colors. Sitting right next to him, we have Average Joe, senior programmer. He's currently just laughing at Littly Timmy, and his no-code programming tool. Unlike Little Timmy, Average Joe has a much larger color palette, since he can do many things that the no-code program simply can not. But oh no! Our programmer has run into the limitations of his operating system. What can he possibly do now? At this point, you might start laughing at Average Joe. You don't have his problem at all, because you aren't using an OS. You might tell Average Joe to stop using his OS, but the only answer you will get is "OS what?". Clearly your palette is a lot bigger than his. You can do a lot more if you aren't limited by your OS. You have a lot more freedom. But guess what! You are still writing code, and asking a compiler to compile it for you. A lot of power in your hands, but not infinite. So here I am laughing. Problems like yours can not stop me. My punchcards and levers are more powerful than you can imagine. Writing code bit by bit gives me complete control over any problem, allowing me to create _the most optimised_ program ever created. Until... my hardware stops me. There's a nerd sitting next to me. He's laughing. A bit mean in my opinion but I'll let it slide for now. The reason he's laughing is because he finds it pathetic that I'm using a computer. He disassembled his computer, a clock, and a calculator for good measure. He then soldered some wires, reorganised the transistors and the bits and bobs (whatever they may be), to create a machine that is tailor made for the problem he is trying to solve. His machine is multiple levels more optimised than what Average Joe could achieve. This machine doesn't rely on anything. No computer, no anything. Suddenly a portal appears in the middle of the room, and a time traveler steps out of it. He shows us his creation. A machine created on the *sub-atomic* level. Working at such depths is like having an eight dimensional color palette. This is it. We reached the end of the line. You can't go any deeper. This is the perfect machine. At these scales, anything is possible. No limitations. _Well as long as it complies with the laws of physics..._ "So then" - you might say - "I was right. Having a deeper understanding is better, because it gives you a wider variety of options." Well let me ask you a question: How much time and energy did it take for the time traveler to plan out his creation? Try to imagine solving a problem by planning out where every single sub-molecule goes. Even if this time traveler had infinite time, and physically unkillable, he would still most likely die to boredom alone. "But he's a frikin time traveler! Surely they can do better". The answer is no. If you don't plan out everything sub-molecule by sub-molecule, that means you are using pre-made sub-molecule combinations, which then decreases your palette size. The final machine *won't* be the _most optimised machine_ to the problem. What does the time traveler do then? Most probably sit in the mind reading chair for less than a second. The mind reading chair then interprets your brain waves as instructions for the translator. The translator translates the interpreted instructions into machine code for the Builder 9000. And then the Builder 9000 makes a machine that won't be perfect, but a machine that was made in less than a second. What I'm trying to say is that there is always another layer of abstraction. And the jump between code and no-code is surprisingly small compared to conventional code to machine code. And the gap is only going to get smaller, as no code programs/compilers/whateveryouwannacallthem get better. Of course having a deeper understanding is sometimes helpful, most of the time you simply don't need it. Like most of the time you can get away with using an OS. Thank you for reading. I tried not to offend you too much (if I did I'm genuinely sorry). I was just trying to give you another perspective on the matter.
But... but... but you can just use SOME nocode developers and still have coders to come in and fix problems as they arise. You'd still save money on most of the work!
Here is a big brain idea, make a no code framework by yourself, and open source it. You can keep using it and the problem with the framework gets fixed automatically by people working in the benefit of you for free
Well no code allows persons to create software without actually coding with a traditional programming language with no code you are basically taking pre-built materials and combining them in a way to build apps without the need of writing code or maybe even learning a language yourself. Something like figma or a website builder where you just drag and drop prebuilt assets saving you the need of learning an actual language
This is stupid. The only valid criticism is that no-code tools just works horribly. That doesnt mean industry doesnt want or need this. No-code tools objectively makes productivity increase and cuts down on costs. Just because you may want custom feature in case your "website" gets big doesnt mean you have to hire a developer and start right from the get go. Customers dont care what framework or tools their favourite product is running on as long as its functional.
I work for a low-code platform and I think I could contribute to this conversation a bit, but I have to come back at another time after I formulate my points. Cheers
No Code is a great thing for software development. It makes creating software easier. Software developers are problem solvers coding is just one tool out of many in a software developer’s tool box. The consumer does not care about whether the software was built in machine code or built with a no code tool, the consumer just cares about what problem is being solved. For example if you were building a video game you wouldn’t build the graphics, physics, or audio from scratch you would use a game engine. Building everything from scratch often takes years, so it’s almost always better to use off the shelf solutions. Everybody uses off the shelf solutions even Boeing and Airbus don’t design their own engines they use off the shelf engines that fit their planes needs. Off the shelf solutions are often better than if you created it yourself. By using off the shelf solutions you benefit from using software that has already been tested and used this means that if an issue does come up likely someone has already solved it.
If you don't like coding just say that. Stick to your little kiddy tools creating bland, minimally functional software and people who actually enjoy coding will continue creating real applications.
Lmao the little kid even Got chat gpt to write this comment for him. Just say you can barely use your brain and dont know how to develop software at all
I think no code is just for "people" and I insist on the term people and not engineers who just aren't skilled enough or talented enough to actually write code that does solve problems. Like working in the web is already summer intern's level of difficulty in 80% of cases, and you are telling me now people that are not 8 yo are using Scratch like platform to make shitty website ? Just take the time and get good, unless you have a good reason to use no-code I just don't see why you would take the long term productivity and kill hit of using just a numbing tool. It's simple in SWE slow and steady wins the race. I'm not saying you need to know how to implement a a compiler in assembly to be good but at the same time taking the time to learn the fundamentals well, taking the time to implement things yourself, like building your own compiler, your own 3d renderer, your won game engine, regex engine, compression library, multithreaded http server, all of those projects can be done within 6 months in plain old C and will give you so much knowledge that you are actually going to be good and understand what you do, and not be a sad no code looser.
My opinion is that your music taste is very good. About the rest... embeded systems and low-code. Its lique a squid comenting on a chicken. Evry thing as its chalanges. Leave the chicken alone. Never did low code, but i do c++ i do pyrhon... and what? These are tools.
Do you "really like to hear opinion on this", haha? Good try at a problem, but you're looking at it in an oversimplified way, and I'm not sure as a result what your point it. Do you? Here's what I got from it: * oversimplified frameworks can't do what artisanal programming can * they will reduce expertise in the field * they will have reduced gamut and performance Right? If yes, then.. "Invert, always invert" - Jacobi (an awesome guy, btw) * You assume that "frameworks put people in a box", but what if I told you, Neo, that there is no box? So what is there? Something "you cannot smell, taste, or touch". The Matrix doesn't take from humans. It gives them freedom. * You're claiming that it will reduce need for self-perfection, but what if I told you if there was a need for self-perfection, we wouldn't have as many programmers? * You're saying it's not gonna be cheaper, but what if I told you that a coding effort that today is $1000 can drop to less than a cent, when we create robust low/no code, and we absolutely will?
I have to disagree with you, There is nothing wrong with specialising in different levels, Most formula 1 teams don't design or make their own engines, they buy them from other teams because they focusing on high level aspects like aerodynamics. The same is with coding if you only need a framework or a particular language for a job then it would be a waste of time to learn lower levels just to troubleshoot, When my OS plays up I don't need to know how it is not working i just need to be able to google it, and copy any fixes. So if it can be done without any code then it can be done with no code.
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no code can only work for simple and foreseeable projects. While most interesting work in software development is not simple and foreseeable.
I develop IT help desks and even though that’s a (moderately) simple and highly foreseeable project, no code & even low code are simply not worth the limitations they inherently come with 99% of the time.
@@ThatDevMatOfficial yes, it might work for simple and foreseeable projects. but this doesnt mean it will. :)
"No code" is just "someone else's code you can't fix"
"You can't fix skill issue with a better footgun"
-Barney Starsoup
idk why but duckduckgo shows results for Bjarne Stroustrup if you search for Barney Starsoup
Not Barney Starsoup all over again
Fortunately, as a consultant, I'll be the one they call in a year or two when they realize their no code framework was never viable as a solution and now they need a real engineer to fix their stuff
No Code frameworks barely even work inside the box they put you in, and since that box is smaller than a shoe box, any solution born from it are just ticking time bombs because the ambitions of the companies using these are not aligned with reality and much less with the contraints of the tools they use like these no code frameworks
But consultants aren‘t real engineers. In big consulting companies there is a huge variance between skilled and unskilled employees because they operate on hire and fire
It’s like making a website using PowerPoint
As a yes-coder looking at low-code is ominous. I strongly suggest you people to take a look at how Wix only uses elements everywhere in the HTML, which heavily compromises SEO. Wanna change it? Maybe pick a custom thumbnail for shareable articles? Maybe setup a dark/light mode toggler? Maybe add custom scroll animations? Your designer had an idea? Too bad. And I'm only talking about front end landing pages. I can only fathom how people use these tools to build more complex stuff. Sure takes a lot of courage to let your business logic dependent on something that can't be debugged. Playstore update? Oops, there goes millions of dollars.
3:37 yeah, this already happened in finance, the whole financial industry is running on excel, technically a "no code" tool
Excel would actually be a low-code tool since macros written in VB are possible 🤓👆🏻
I've come across a number of departments in my career that heavily used Excel. They all had custom macros which nobody reviewed or tested, often no version control.
There was plenty of code, it was just bad and had no quality control and wasn't written by Devs.
that's the most damning indictment of the no-code concept imaginable
@@101Mantin case of finance, there are reasons for it to stay this way. Unverified code makes it easier to keep mistakes ongoing. And mistakes in accounting are very useful.
Excel is a program that makes the most money in the world. Just by virtue of taxation laws.
@@wumi2419that’s bad in the macro view. You’re wasting resources that way
no code, no sql, whatever next? no server, no eating, no bathroom!
No server is a thing lol. See "serverless". Just like no code, there's still the server somewhere and it's still a leaky abstraction.
@@xevious4142Serverless has already been overtaken by serverless-less - a paradigm that abstracts away the serverless and runs directly on the machine
No breathing, no existing 😉
No Software, no business.
Serverless isn't no server tho@@xevious4142
As someone who focuses on backend.... i understand the appeal of no code every time someone wants me to center a div
I do backend too and was asked to do the same: the solution is to search how to replace a tag
@@mek101whatif7I m a frontend and I die inside when I read this 😥😂
I've had a business architect explain to me how "There were 0 programmers on a team of a 100 people that made software FOR A BANK in a no-code tool".
When you ask who's going to solve the bugs in the framework, you're going to get the "We have a support contract with the no-code company" answer, or just straight up go to the denial stage. These people believe they can do this, and the problem is they often can. In the end, they even "save money on coding", and offset(as in, offset their discovery in time) invisible expenses like hosting, code maintenance or operations and relicensing costs you'd normally think about doing reasonable software engineering.
It's lazier and it does the job(until it doesn't), so it obviously must be the right way.
I'm noticing a theme here: microcontrollers, C, assembly. But is anyone *actually* doing no-code for that kind of system? If so, I agree, that sounds like a bad choice for no-code. But some things can be done well with no code.
Take for example a restaurant. All their website needs is social media, menu, pictures of food. They can do that with a drag-and-drop website builder. The criticisms laid out in this video include:
- "subscribing to the no-code service costs money." Can't argue with that, it does suck!
- "your solution is not as flexible." True, but a restaurant usually doesn't need their site to be that flexible.
- "good architecture has to be tailored to the problem." In this case, "static website builder" matches the "I need a static website" problem.
Some people in the comments say things like "no-code is for people with no talent". But it's good that a chef who isn't talented at coding is able to update the restaurant's info.
The restaurant example you give make me think you don't understand what the video is talking about.
what you have described can be done using tools like wordpress and spotify.. etc which existed for year and didn't spark this type of debate about them.
what the video I talking about is the rise of the use of no code tools in project more complex then a small restaurant website, people are literally making SAAS startup using no code tool and not even for simple SAAS ideas which any one with a software background can tell you is a bad idea
@@ZiZou-ry1cm Valid points and I liked your comment.
But one day the restaurant owner would want to customize the website in some way to add something new.
A feature (or something similar) that his competition probably has on their website - this would need a fundamental and sizeable modification of the code.
What then?
@@braydenfulken2495 even though I didn't understand the point you are making (sorry 😅) but in this case service like wordpress have a big library of plugins that can provide any functionality a small website like the restaurant one would ever need and with a quick RUclips search the owner can learn how to configure that plugin. As simple as that.
Another thing to keep in mind is the type of app those no code users are trying to build, because building an ecommerce or a blog app is very different then building for example an AI app that can calculate your optimal calories intake based on you lifestyle and and the movement recorded using you phone sensors.
I hope I explained my self clearly
@@ZiZou-ry1cm I should give a disclaimer that I'm still a CS student, and not in the industry, though I have built a simple website for an org before using no-code. Which is why I defended it here. I saw the video as a criticism of all no-code. But you're probably right that he's talking about a different kind of software than me. (0:11 "I used to work at a few companies that are developing software exclusively using no-code frameworks.") I'll take your word for it that no-code is bad for big software (especially SaaS), the arguments are pretty convincing.
@@ahdog8 yes, one thing can literally destroy you software company is that you software growing the point that it outgrows the no code framework that is used to build it in which you are stuck and probably can do nothing, you may read about Myspace downfall to understand my point
I completely agree. I've been writing software since the 1980ies, and among the first things I did was program in BASIC and UCSD Pascal with machine code and assembly code subroutines, respectively. Developers of today wouldn't even WANT to understand it, b/c it's "so low-level". But the bare metal and the libraries above it are what is running our computers nowadays. If you don't get familiar with it, you'll never be able to even recognize a problem happening in that arena. I'm working as a full-stack developer (mostly in backend) now and sometimes it's outright weird how coworkers handle problems. But I try to help, of course, if I can, in such cases.
No Code is what brought me into coding ironically.
That's something to keep in mind. It lowers the entry barriers for software development in general, which is a good thing imo
Yeah but is it really easier than some html, css, and vanilla js?
@@VoidplayLP Depending on the task it's much faster if you are building a static website of a simple app using no code tools would be a lot easier. If you are building a game engine or a advance photo editor code is probably easier
For our products we do both. We could ofcource build 100% custom applications (which is the most fun🎉). But usually for MVPs or relatively simple products we use some mixture of no-code and low-code tools. For the products we find product-market fit for, we then usually go on to build a more reslient and scalable application 'from scratch'.
So in conclusion- businesses prefer asking for a skill issue.
But never want to pay to fix it, got it 😂
Least now I can send this video to my teammates and have a laugh, keep it up brother 💪
in russia we have 1c which is basically a dumbed-down vba that you write entirely in russian. it's not no-code per se, but it's somehow worse.
the only ide you can use to write it (since project files are encoded in a proprietary format) looks like windows 3.1. lots of random pop-ups and modals in there too. you don't even get to write your sql queries (also in russian for some reason); you have to use the "query constructor" which erases half your handwritten code around the query and click a hundred buttons for a simple "SELECT col1 FROM table".
and don't get me started on the fact it's a government-supported monopoly. there are no alternative solutions for accounting and managing finances and business processes outside the "1c ecosystem".
03:20 a no-code framework that is used by the whole industry - That is a neat way of referencing AWS
???
No Code is not functional, of course it has side effects
GET OUT
It going to get worse with LLM coding tools, some manager somewhere will be convinced that OpenAI can produce production level code. Code bases will be poluted and the codepocalyse will happen.
And then a human will have to fix it...
LLMs are only really useful if you know how to code well already, and also know how to write and iterate on queries. They speed up experienced programmers, but produce bugfests for inexperienced programmers.
@@vast634 Indeed i use those a bit together with stackoverflow when looking for solutions for things like my game development projects when getting stuck and so but I would NEVER just copy paste AI generated code right into my game codebase but only use it as a reference + also make sure I know 100% how all of my code works myself. This goes for all programming I do, not just games. Know your code!
Tools like chatgpt and copilot are poisoned enough to produce garbage code already
@@mindaugask_ In the future the companies training them need to be much more careful to use curated code examples, for example from working well maintained codebases. This should filter out junk code examples from the training set.
I think the same can also apply when using code with a high-level game engine
some no code or low code platforms can be good. but it can turn out bad when people working with it don't know how it works.
an advantage of a low code platform can be integration. usually there are connectors in these platforms, which means that less effort is needed to connect to systems. But that also makes it less flexible.
It make people easy to get started, but is it really benefit for the long term? Those connector allow you to call API without knowing which API endpoint to call and how to authenticate the API. You always need to write code to transform the output
However, do you really don’t need to understand and at least be aware of the API, how the API is authenticated, and the limitation about those API for any serious project ?
Some connectors are also joke for me, tons of limitation and does not handle token expiration. If it is code, there is always some way to fix it although the solution may not be that easy to average developer. If it is the connector problem, either I am done or I need write other connectorsthat support token expiration. Then what is the point of using the connector ?
I deeply regret the fact I underestimated this video at first. this video is the synthesis of everything that I think about no code stuff. By far the best video I have seen the last 3 days. Also one thing to add, I think everyone that is a serious developer should be against no code,
lol I thought "no code" refers to the principle that "the only code that can't break is the one you don't write", which is a strategy to avoid unnecessary complexity.
This is one of the reasons we get 70GB games now
That arduino soldering broll got my blood boiling
A world where everything went to framework use is probably Star Wars. In Star Wars the level of technology kind of kept static in complexity for millennia, as if at one point all the technological advancements like spaceships and robot brains kept pretty much at the same level, and are just copies and adjusted, but not fundamentally improved anymore. Likely because noone understands the software fundamentals and engineering principles anymore, so they are left to just copy whatever was developed before.
Man, you won my subscription in 15 seconds, great
I'm grateful for not ever touching that no-code crap.
No-code has always been something that's fell through in the long run. In the Java era they were making drag and drop UML frameworks to produce Java code, now its the same thing but for web development. What always survives is actual, real code.
4:08 why are you implying APIs are bad? What’s your alternative to Vulkan or OpenGL? What about the Win32 API? You could make an argument that overutilizing libraries is similar to low code, but APIs are often just fairly nessecary to interface with some things.
It's all APIs, man x
We always need to learn the tool well, what they are designed for and what is the limitation. No matter it is no code or framework, but code based is always more flexible than no code by the nature of abstraction. And libraries is further more flexible than framework
I believe why many no code people have no idea what is under the hood is because No code tool is very difficult to attract good developer, because the career path is highly restricted with the tool and the ecosystem.
I started with wordpress because it was easy, but it quickly become complicated for the most stupidest things, so I started learning web development, and now I hate working with it, I still have to, but at least now I understand better how to work around problems
From my perspective, no-code tools have been available since I was a kid and we were even using them to LEARN how to CODE later 😂 I thought they were boring too!!
its GOOD for teachers or making small company internal tools... which we already have for years... they are just Excel sheets or Google Sheets...
Age-old tendency and the dream of management - reduce or eliminate need for competent programmers / IT people, and turn it into a burger shop kind of operation. Of course, now there is much more tooling available ( frameworks, AI, remote work / outsourcing, firece job competition ) to bring this dream closer to reality. Sad but true - it is not a good time to be any employee.
I am a programmer and an IT person. I'm in favor of keeping competent programmers / IT people, and doing things reasonably, adequately, maintainably, within reason. Management who doesn't understand programming / IT always tries to cut corners beyond what is reasonable, and doesn't see issues like dependencies, technical debt, lack of control over company's essential codebase / infrastructure, and companies end up at the mercy of all these externally run systems and with no recourse available when sh!t hits the fan in one of any number of ways..
The prime example why no code is not better
UE5 blueprints
While yes you can do things much easier and faster
The moment i need smth a little more complicated/custom blueprints start to give out
+ any complicated algorithm is much difficulter to code in blueprints then c++
Can fully agree, Blueprints are totally great for smaller scripts but for bigger things i aways turn to C++ or at least script my own BP nodes using C++ that contains all complexity in one single or a few nodes thus reducing the mess in BP. Sure there are lots of ways to organize the nodes and so but still. They are also after all meant to be used together BP and C++ when working in Unreal.
I had a friend once get me a client that wanted the website in webflow , and while it started great , i still had to use javascript to get certain things working like they wanted , so i really don't see the point of no code unless it's for something completely static or a prototype
I used to use no-code stuff to work on games.
I think the future of coding is going to be very different with the use of AI.
I don't believe the fundamentals will change very much. Still gotta learn about traditional coding theory.
But, I think AI will make it easier to write code quicker provided that people know what they are doing.
EDIT: To be more specific, I think folks will be required to at least understand code still in that they can read whats happening and understand it. I think in the future, people will be writing code in english and then having AI transcribe it in whatever language.
The Tony Ferguson cameo makes me sad😢.
Scratch is the only no code tool I've ever recommended. My sister knows the basics of how things are designed because of it.
This is just a cyclic phase that programmers best ignore. The first of these that managers tried to use to threaten my future, was 4GLs back in the 1990's. I realised they were unmaintainable, at risk of the company selling them going bust, and just boringly limited in what they could do. Nothing has changed. Expect this sort of rubbish every few years. Refuse to use them. Dump your job if they are forced on you. Otherwise, if you put no code on your resume, expect long term unemployment.
Real programmers don't do no code 👨💻
"I am a developer!" (c) Thumbnail
i think he dissed java again with the boxing ring, but im not sure what he meant
no code is good, it makes people more productive but it cant be used for everything
good practices is worse than no code because it interferes with the actual coding and should never be followed
I'm a coder! I'm a coder! I'm a coder!
3:50 let me introduce you to citizen development. One day I will find whoever invented that concept… idk what I’ll do when I find them but just know that day will come.
My team uses both python for our microservices and Outsystems for anything that requires an UI for an end-user.
While I'm not the biggest fan of python I have no problems working with it, however I get physically sick every time I know I'm going to have to open Outsystems. Knowing I'm going to have to fiddle with those fucking blocks for hours, creating an abhorrent and hard to follow abomination of nested blocks I can barely wrap my head around when a hundred lines of easy to read code would've achieved the same thing is anxiety inducing.
A lot of the time what I need to do can't be done out of the box so I'm going to be writing a plugin in C# or custom JS blocks (which is somehow worse than just writing js) anyway completely negating the supposed benefits of low/no-code.
I mean I guess I can shit out basic webpages "faster" than I could by typing everything by hand, but this can be solved in better ways.
Good video, engineers for the win!
"do you think it will be free?"
Considering how many business people assume you can replace a 50.000$ p.a. person with a 20€ per month AI - subscription while the AI Company burns through billions of dollars, it's not far off to assume someone really thinks that.
You can apply that to real-world AI copilot tools.
'No code' is excellent tool if you're not planning on writing any code.
For everything else, like enterprise systems that are in business of making profit, ... you may wanna learn to code.
theres many example in my country where an organization that tries to make some money using nocode... then end up spending more money and more problems
No code tools are great for one-off internal tools. Not so much for long-lasting user-facing applications that use a database.
I'm going to quickly start off by saying that I'm no supporter of no-code OR code.
The reason I'm making this comment is because I think you were waaay too harsh on no-code in this video.
Also my grammer isn't perfect, please forgive me.
So. Let me give you a little perspective:
Little Timmy is sitting at his computer, making stuff, dragging colorful blocks on top of each other.
All is going well until Little Timmy realises that he can't do something he really wants. His palette is limited to only five colors.
Sitting right next to him, we have Average Joe, senior programmer. He's currently just laughing at Littly Timmy, and his no-code programming tool.
Unlike Little Timmy, Average Joe has a much larger color palette, since he can do many things that the no-code program simply can not.
But oh no! Our programmer has run into the limitations of his operating system. What can he possibly do now?
At this point, you might start laughing at Average Joe.
You don't have his problem at all, because you aren't using an OS. You might tell Average Joe to stop using his OS, but the only answer you will get is "OS what?".
Clearly your palette is a lot bigger than his. You can do a lot more if you aren't limited by your OS. You have a lot more freedom.
But guess what! You are still writing code, and asking a compiler to compile it for you. A lot of power in your hands, but not infinite.
So here I am laughing. Problems like yours can not stop me. My punchcards and levers are more powerful than you can imagine.
Writing code bit by bit gives me complete control over any problem, allowing me to create _the most optimised_ program ever created.
Until... my hardware stops me.
There's a nerd sitting next to me. He's laughing. A bit mean in my opinion but I'll let it slide for now.
The reason he's laughing is because he finds it pathetic that I'm using a computer.
He disassembled his computer, a clock, and a calculator for good measure.
He then soldered some wires, reorganised the transistors and the bits and bobs (whatever they may be), to create a machine that is tailor made for the problem he is trying to solve.
His machine is multiple levels more optimised than what Average Joe could achieve. This machine doesn't rely on anything. No computer, no anything.
Suddenly a portal appears in the middle of the room, and a time traveler steps out of it.
He shows us his creation. A machine created on the *sub-atomic* level. Working at such depths is like having an eight dimensional color palette.
This is it. We reached the end of the line. You can't go any deeper. This is the perfect machine. At these scales, anything is possible. No limitations.
_Well as long as it complies with the laws of physics..._
"So then" - you might say - "I was right. Having a deeper understanding is better, because it gives you a wider variety of options."
Well let me ask you a question: How much time and energy did it take for the time traveler to plan out his creation?
Try to imagine solving a problem by planning out where every single sub-molecule goes.
Even if this time traveler had infinite time, and physically unkillable, he would still most likely die to boredom alone.
"But he's a frikin time traveler! Surely they can do better".
The answer is no. If you don't plan out everything sub-molecule by sub-molecule, that means you are using pre-made sub-molecule combinations, which then decreases your palette size.
The final machine *won't* be the _most optimised machine_ to the problem.
What does the time traveler do then? Most probably sit in the mind reading chair for less than a second.
The mind reading chair then interprets your brain waves as instructions for the translator.
The translator translates the interpreted instructions into machine code for the Builder 9000.
And then the Builder 9000 makes a machine that won't be perfect, but a machine that was made in less than a second.
What I'm trying to say is that there is always another layer of abstraction. And the jump between code and no-code is surprisingly small compared to conventional code to machine code.
And the gap is only going to get smaller, as no code programs/compilers/whateveryouwannacallthem get better.
Of course having a deeper understanding is sometimes helpful, most of the time you simply don't need it. Like most of the time you can get away with using an OS.
Thank you for reading. I tried not to offend you too much (if I did I'm genuinely sorry). I was just trying to give you another perspective on the matter.
But... but... but you can just use SOME nocode developers and still have coders to come in and fix problems as they arise. You'd still save money on most of the work!
Here is a big brain idea, make a no code framework by yourself, and open source it. You can keep using it and the problem with the framework gets fixed automatically by people working in the benefit of you for free
But only shit "programmers" use them seriously, i don't know how contributing trash back to trash is going to work out well for you
That only works if it gets the right kind of adoption.
Ah, knowledge gap is much more better word, than the skill issue :D
just let my man cook
Wait you get fruit bowls?
This is why I program in machine code. 001001010101 only baby!.
Objectively the best no code language is Scratch
No assembly supremacy these days.
wtf is the person soldering with the uno?
A new random element
What's no code
Are you familiar with coding? Well it's the opposite of that
Well no code allows persons to create software without actually coding with a traditional programming language with no code you are basically taking pre-built materials and combining them in a way to build apps without the need of writing code or maybe even learning a language yourself. Something like figma or a website builder where you just drag and drop prebuilt assets saving you the need of learning an actual language
@incognitohacks4850
That's stupid, relying on a company as your main source of income is a terrible business decision, just look at Adobe
Tools like WIX, can't name any other since I don't look into them
All frameworks are No Code, it's an abstraction layer you didn't build yourself.
This is stupid. The only valid criticism is that no-code tools just works horribly. That doesnt mean industry doesnt want or need this.
No-code tools objectively makes productivity increase and cuts down on costs.
Just because you may want custom feature in case your "website" gets big doesnt mean you have to hire a developer and start right from the get go.
Customers dont care what framework or tools their favourite product is running on as long as its functional.
Fr i think no code is shit... Until I need to center a div
Just use any good tools, be it fing bootstrap and tada, centered
poor tony
There is "no bathroom" development. You just crap where you code
I work for a low-code platform and I think I could contribute to this conversation a bit, but I have to come back at another time after I formulate my points. Cheers
No Code is a great thing for software development. It makes creating software easier. Software developers are problem solvers coding is just one tool out of many in a software developer’s tool box. The consumer does not care about whether the software was built in machine code or built with a no code tool, the consumer just cares about what problem is being solved. For example if you were building a video game you wouldn’t build the graphics, physics, or audio from scratch you would use a game engine. Building everything from scratch often takes years, so it’s almost always better to use off the shelf solutions. Everybody uses off the shelf solutions even Boeing and Airbus don’t design their own engines they use off the shelf engines that fit their planes needs. Off the shelf solutions are often better than if you created it yourself. By using off the shelf solutions you benefit from using software that has already been tested and used this means that if an issue does come up likely someone has already solved it.
If you don't like coding just say that. Stick to your little kiddy tools creating bland, minimally functional software and people who actually enjoy coding will continue creating real applications.
They keyboard is so big and scary.
You just got major skills issues smh
@@JiggyJones0 Business > Code
Lmao the little kid even Got chat gpt to write this comment for him. Just say you can barely use your brain and dont know how to develop software at all
I think no code is just for "people" and I insist on the term people and not engineers who just aren't skilled enough or talented enough to actually write code that does solve problems. Like working in the web is already summer intern's level of difficulty in 80% of cases, and you are telling me now people that are not 8 yo are using Scratch like platform to make shitty website ? Just take the time and get good, unless you have a good reason to use no-code I just don't see why you would take the long term productivity and kill hit of using just a numbing tool. It's simple in SWE slow and steady wins the race. I'm not saying you need to know how to implement a a compiler in assembly to be good but at the same time taking the time to learn the fundamentals well, taking the time to implement things yourself, like building your own compiler, your own 3d renderer, your won game engine, regex engine, compression library, multithreaded http server, all of those projects can be done within 6 months in plain old C and will give you so much knowledge that you are actually going to be good and understand what you do, and not be a sad no code looser.
yep, its all just skill issues at the end of the day
are you Arab, tariq is an arabic name
My opinion is that your music taste is very good. About the rest... embeded systems and low-code. Its lique a squid comenting on a chicken. Evry thing as its chalanges. Leave the chicken alone. Never did low code, but i do c++ i do pyrhon... and what? These are tools.
Do you "really like to hear opinion on this", haha?
Good try at a problem, but you're looking at it in an oversimplified way, and I'm not sure as a result what your point it. Do you?
Here's what I got from it:
* oversimplified frameworks can't do what artisanal programming can
* they will reduce expertise in the field
* they will have reduced gamut and performance
Right?
If yes, then..
"Invert, always invert" - Jacobi (an awesome guy, btw)
* You assume that "frameworks put people in a box", but what if I told you, Neo, that there is no box? So what is there? Something "you cannot smell, taste, or touch". The Matrix doesn't take from humans. It gives them freedom.
* You're claiming that it will reduce need for self-perfection, but what if I told you if there was a need for self-perfection, we wouldn't have as many programmers?
* You're saying it's not gonna be cheaper, but what if I told you that a coding effort that today is $1000 can drop to less than a cent, when we create robust low/no code, and we absolutely will?
I have to disagree with you, There is nothing wrong with specialising in different levels, Most formula 1 teams don't design or make their own engines, they buy them from other teams because they focusing on high level aspects like aerodynamics.
The same is with coding if you only need a framework or a particular language for a job then it would be a waste of time to learn lower levels just to troubleshoot, When my OS plays up I don't need to know how it is not working i just need to be able to google it, and copy any fixes.
So if it can be done without any code then it can be done with no code.
No code is another manifestation of the will to power of the weak. To put it simply: it is for *stupid* people who "have the right" to shine too.