Watching this segment live during lockdown was a fantastic birthday present. Rewatched it again today. So much great information if you’re thinking about a MONOCHROM purchase. I have the M9M but need a 2nd body. RDF’s technical expertise and experience has helped greatly in my research and decision.TY
Excellent video thats encouraged me to buy an M10 Monochrome instead of a Type 246 One small aside, Josh, I followed up on your recommendation for David Carol's No Plan B which he documents on the B&H Channel. He emphasizes that all images were shot on a Leica FILM camera. Very good pictures, but not an insight into the Monochrom. :-}
Brilliant video. Thank you for such an informative video on the M10 Monochrom and black and white photography in general. The best I’ve seen yet. Keep it up guys. Thank you so much
You kind of dismissed the use of an ND filter, but if you want to shoot wide open on a fast lens for the shallow depth of field, my 246 experience is that the 320 min ISO may require it-even at very high shutter speeds. Thoughts? Great discussion!
I use my M8(.2) a lot with a 720nm IR-pass filter. No sensor modification. ISO 640, f/5.6, handheld, mainly with a 28mm using an IR focus offset. Shutter speeds usually in the 1/45-1/125th sec. range. Lotsa fun…it’s a unique look.
LOVE your show, Love your explanations! And as a M246 owner, Nice to know exactly what are the advantages. And as you state 32:30 - It's a totally different and constrained workflow.
Very useful information. Thanks! I have viewed this episode several times, and selectively viewed specific parts even more. The Showdown at the Red Dot Forum has also been very helpful. Thus far, my take-away is that I do not need to be in any hurry to “upgrade” to an M10 Monochrom, as the 246 remains competitive. It makes more sense to keep using my M10 and M 246 cameras, and, perhaps, add a lens.
Thank you for your excellent and very-detailed presentations (again). I have watched this one several times before and after acquiring my M10 Monochrome. I totally support your advice to expose for the highlights. In my experience (2 months of photographing almost daily) the M10 mono has no tolerance for over-exposure and thanks to its excellent dynamic range (toward low exposure) high tolerance in the lowlights/shadows. So yes, expose for the highlights and get the details back in the shadows in any image-processing software (it works even for images taken in July at 12 p.m. on a bright sunny day). [PS: Josh say hi from me from Rochester to John Latimer.]
Glad you found it helpful, and that you've taken exposing for the highlights to heart. The M10M is an absolutely amazing camera, but does require a little bit of finesse given its lack of highlight range.
Thanks for all the info here! I recently picked up an M9 (not the mono) as a budget way to try out the digital M system. I love the color files it produces, but I have to say the B&W conversions look amazing and it is making me think about also getting a monochrom in the future. The new M11M sounds amazing, but I'll probably need to stick to the "budget" models like the M9M or the 246. I'll have to check out your showdown article with the two cameras. BTW, I think my uncoated 50mm Summitar (from my IIIf) looks great on my M9 (and on my Sony a7RII) especially in B&W.
@@GrainAndPixels yes, I had to save up for mine as well, a secondhand one, couldn’t afford a new one. I also saved up for a elmarit-m 28mm f2.8 asph and a 50mm cron f2 v5. Which lense were you thinking of paring up with the 264?
Thank you very much for a splendid talk, I live in the UK so I watch the replay. I use the Monochrom Type 246, Elmar 24mm f3.8 plus orange filter in landscape photography. The range of tones I achieve in the sky remind me so much of the darkroom prints from years ago then using an Orange or Yellow filter on Black and White Film. Digital Colour conversions come near but in my opinion they don't quite match it.
Love that 24 Elmar. What a great match for the M246! And you're absolutely correct. With an orange filter, the files really come to life for landscape photography. Definitely the most useful of the color filters on the M Monochrom.
More vintage lens talk please!! So many gems to use with the MM like the Summicron 8e, Rigid Summicron, Elmar 50mm f3.5/f2.8, etc. It’s worth a whole video : )
I love a red filter on B&W photography, Orson Welles loved to use wide angle lenses in his movies (often a 18.5mm cine lens) with a red filter. It is obviously "intense" but if that's the look you are going for, a red filter is pretty amazing.
I have a red 25, a red 29 and a yellow 8 filters. The red 25 is the one I use the most, especially on sunny days. The yellow 8 I like to use on portraits. But this is me, lol
I found this video very very interesting and helpful to me as I debate whether to scratch the itch and buy a monochrome camera. So the Q is which one to buy? If I don’t need the astonishing low light performance of the M10M, I presume the M246 will give comparable results under normal light conditions. Do the sensors of the M246 and M10M render very differently under normal daylightconditions. Any thoughts from those here that have experience with both? The price difference is big for an amateur.
Hi, Thanks for your videos. I would like to ask you for an advice, which 50mm lens could I associate with my leica M9M. To compensate the lack of color, I'm looking for a lens with a lot of details. Thank you
Excellent episode as always. I think Leica Miami should come up with a Leica M10 Monochrom in a glossy black paint over brass as a special edition for the store. Maybe with a 28mm summicron with the same paint.
Answered this for another user already. The shading correction is an in-camera correction applied to DNG and JPG files to reduce/eliminate lens vignetting for lenses which have a valid 6-bit code or where the user has selected a lens profile. Some photographers prefer the effect of a natural lens vignette so Leica has given the option to use or disable.
The M8 requires no conversion to shoot infrared (both black and white or false color infrared). You can just put the filter on the lens and go for it. There is a slight focus shift that you have to experiment with. And you can often shoot handheld (but a tripod might be better). I use the old Leica IR filter (that is NOT an IR cut filter, it's nearly black or at least very deep red) for black and white and a red Kodak 25A filter (also Leica) for false color. I still have my M8 and infrared is what I use it for. Way easier than using infrared film.
@@BrunoChalifour I didn't record the point in the video but the subject came up sometime during the video! Since I'm 63 and it's been a month and I can't even remember what I went into the kitchen for, I can't remember what. They probably talked about IR sensitivity or the M8's usefulness.
My poor man’s Fugi X-10 also gives great infrared results just by holding a R72 filter over the lens and switching to the B&W film simulation. No need to pay for a conversion. Maybe can afford an M10 in my next lifetime.
@@BrunoChalifour They talked about the M8 in this video in it's IR role. They claimed that you would have to convert the sensor. That is why the comment is relevant.
A Leica Monochrom and a vintage Noctilux 1.0 is magic. It just transforms the lens. I always loved using film with the Noct. But the Monochrom creates amazing sharpness from that lens. I had the never version of the lens. But I like the vignetting of the older 50mm more than crazy sharpness from the never version.
I shoot the M10M, 246, and SL2 HARD, pushed to the limits a lot, with the premium SL APO and M glass...(cannot say exactly who for rn...) but the M10M w 50mm APO f/2, and 75mm Noct ... simply SMOKE as the pairing of choice so long as you know what you’re doing and understand your gear. Practice practice practice... As much as I love the SL2, it can be “broken”... yeah true monochrom is a “look” as you say, cannot be duplicated.
01:24:00 Vintage lenses on a high mp Leica monochrome. Forwarding this thought from when the 50mp canon FF was introduced a few years back... The concern was a 50 megapixels camera bing introduced onto a lens platform that had only been occupied by 25 MP cameras. This was at a B&H promo for the camera. One speaker mentioned that the lenses were analog, the cameras were digital. A high mega pixel camera, therefore, would capture MORE of the qualities of the analog lens than a camera half the megapixels, both good and bad qualities of the lens. The way he represented it was the realities that unlike film, the digital sensor represents where data is DISCARDED discretely, from the analog world. So a sensor that captured several orders of magnitude more of that reality, be they beauty or flaws, is definitely a feather in ones cap. I thought that it was a rather unbiased way of describing the affects of a higher capture tech on old analog lenses. So if your lens had a lot of CA and distortion, like my old canon 50mm at 1.4, it kinda sucked anyway on a 18mp sensor as it would on a 50mp. However my f1.4 summilux 50mm is on its fourth body for a reason. Short of talking special purpose high detail architecture or landscape photos, or commercial product photography, and short of side by side comparisons to a 50mm apo, I think folks would enjoy seeing a higher fidelity capture thru their favorite lens.
M10 Monochrom, but the M246 is nothing to sneeze at! Have you checked out the ISO Showdown yet? I put these two head-to-head: www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/05/bw-iso-showdown-2020-leica-m10-monochrom-vs-m-monochrom-typ-246-vs-m10-p-vs-sl2/
RedDotForum I did! Thanks for the article, I found it really comprehensive. High ISO is less useful for me personally since I prefer base in most of my shooting situations. However, it’s crazy how well the M10M does. I’m stuck on the decision bc I’d rather move the price difference to glass and travel, so I’m almost looking for a reason to stop drooling for the newer body.
...zero chances! 😭 www.fujirumors.com/fujifilm-manager-x100v-x-t3-firmware-fujifilm-x-h2-will-come-zero-monochrome-chances-32-megapixel-limit-for-current-xf-lenses-more/ “Monochrome Camera for Fuji X series 10th anniversary? there are zero chances that Fujifilm makes a monochrome camera for the 10th anniversary of the Fujifilm X series”
You hit something essential in the beginning and forgot to elaborate that a bit more. The whole technical concept of Monochrome and S/N ratio is more than clear to me but you made some remarks at 11:45 about *boosting separate color signals* (captured by separate photodiodes) because of the amount of filtering (as you were saying). This is also more than clear to me and not new. This, of course, will be done digitally and since the sensor is an analogous device, (hence the A/D convertor behind it) this amplification will be done by the software or *firmware*. Still with me, Now there are companies that remove the color filter array to get a so called monochrome camera, however they can not alter the firmware. So the amount of light on the separate RGB color diodes (not filtered) is still amplified, however since it is not filtered by the color array above, it wil boost the signal *unevenly* cause the firmware is not altered. Your thoughts on that please (yes it is deep but please indulge me ;-) In addition to your story allow me to share this site (where the opposite is done) *Mono to Color* by Filters. wilddogdesign.co.uk/blog/monochroming-colour-sensor-colour-photography-monochrom/ Thanks for sharing (Leica shooter here too) that's why I follow your channel/forum , and stay safe !!
Very interesting! Hadn't really thought about the fact that the firmware and downstream processing software would still attempt to employ standard debayering with selective color channel gain. As far as the link, I couldn't bring myself to watch the willful destruction of that poor sensor. Obviously, omitting the low pass filter will improve sharpness, which is why you won't find a low pass filter on any Leica camera. But... getting rid of microlenses throws out the baby with the bathwater. Leica's optical department has engineered special microlens structures in order to work with high incident angle M lenses. M lenses simply don't perform as well on non-Leica cameras due to the difference in microlenses and sensor design. And I had indeed seen the practice of using three filtered captures to generate a single color image. This was how the Technicolor process was done - three simultaneous strips of 35mm film were run through the movie with three matching lenses. The triple film went through editing together and ultimately were projected back through three color filters to make an on-screen color image. Everything old is new again!
The highlight of my week; your shows. I have three questions: 1. In the menu of the M10 Monochrom there is a setting 'Shading correction'. What is this setting do? On default it set to 'On'. 2. I am using Capture One for post processing. You always refer to Lightroom. Is there a specific reason for this? 3. I am interested in the Monochrom workshop in Paris. Where can I subscribe?
Thanks! To answer your questions: 1) The shading correction applies correction to the DNG file in camera for any lens vignetting, if either there is a valid 6-bit code read or the user has selected a lens profile manually. You may not see much of a difference for most lenses, as Leica lenses tend to not suffer much from vignetting, but certainly play with it on and off. Also, some photographers might like the effect of natural optical vignetting, especially on vintage glass. As such, Leica has given the user the choice to use or disable this feature. 2) Leica and Adobe work very closely together to optimize DNG quality. This partnership started in 2009 and continues today. Capture One is fine, but does not fully support Leica DNG files, since Phase One views Leica as a competitor. We also use other programs in the Adobe Creative Suite, so Lightroom is a natural choice. For landscape photography, features like HDR multi-shot DNG or multi-shot pano DNGs are incredible and indispensable. And Lightroom is also an amzing organizational tool in addition to RAW processor. The bottom line is that if you are comfortable using C1 and are pleased with the results it gives you, by all means, continue on with C1. But, don't be afraid to try out Lightroom with Adobe's free 30 day trial. 3) You can subscribe to Leica Store Miami's email newsletter to be alerted to upcoming workshops and events: mailchi.mp/leicastoremiami.com/rdfcameratalk
We tend to doubt that Leica will ever offer a dedicated SL Monochrom. If you need the capabilities of the SL2, get an SL2 and convert to B&W. If you need the absolute pinnacle of B&W performance, get the M10M. As far as AF goes, there focusing techniques that can help greatly with speed and accuracy on an M. Check out our M-System videos where we covered some of those.
I'm totally 100% OK with my less than one year old 246 and 35 summilux until the M10M is widely available, but I WAS wondering if there is a buy back program going on or in the works for 246 to M10M.
Leica doesn't have a program for this, and hasn't historically offered Monochrom trade-in programs in the past. But, you can always trade-in your Leica gear at Leica Store Miami. They give 80% of market value for trade-ins. leicastoremiami.com/pages/trade-in-form
@@RedDotForum That's a bummer, but also - thanks for letting me know what you guys offer in Miami. I'm in the Bay Area and have no idea what they offer. Not exactly a warm and fuzzy group at the SF store. But anyway ... 80% sounds like a fair deal. Too bad the M10M is scarce at this time.
Regarding your last question with Leica M10 Monochrome extreme resolution for print. Can one make a bigger and better crop with M10 Monochrome than with Leica SL2 and Leica q2 (28/35/50/75 / ? More detailed? It would be cool. 28 mm to 90 mm?
Probably very similar. Take a look at my B&W ISO Showdown and see the how the M10 Monochrom and SL2 match up at each ISO: www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/05/bw-iso-showdown-2020-leica-m10-monochrom-vs-m-monochrom-typ-246-vs-m10-p-vs-sl2/
Just like any new release from Leica, on-the-shelf availability usually takes a number of months. Add in the current global situation, with no cameras being produced, and the wait has become even longer than usual. And the cameras that have shipped have all gone to customers who pre-ordered.
RedDotForum Understood, thank you. I did pre-order through Leica Miami store as soon as announcement came out. I’ll check with them, I’m just surprised to see quite a few people already have their hands on it in these RUclips videos. Thanks again.
The question remains - when will this actually become available? The 246 is so freaking incredible - it doesn't totally matter how long I need to wait, but it would be nice to have an idea. I know - it's really kind of a "wait and see".
Great info! thanx. but my Q2 seems to often overexpose. expessialy in multifield mode. i have to trust my eyes instead;) and stop down to minus 0.6 or one stop. it happends in shots i good whether, sun. i have heard about this before, any tips ? my Nikon dont do that in matrix mode. i love the Q2 anyway. i expose for hightligts but it dont reacts really correct. not a mono cam..but ask anyway:)
Josh and I routinely dial in negative EV on almost all the cameras we shoot with. With so much shadow information and the ability to recover details, there is no reason to risk blown out highlights. Try center weight metering mode on the Q2 - you might find it more accurate. Or, simply keep doing what you're doing. Enable highlight warning in live view so you can see if there are any blown highlights, then just turn down the EV to compensate.
So, sometimes when I use a orange or red filter on my 246 MM, I find that that the data is off in Lightroom. If I shoot at 5.6, Lightroom data says F22 etc. is that just my version of LR? Or something to do with the meter in the camera?
The red filter darkens blue tones and increases contrast, but does not shift the wavelength out of the visible spectrum. So focusing is unaffected. If this was an IR filter that blocked all visible light, then yes, focusing would indeed shift.
The M10M was purpose-built to be a black and white camera. The handling of the RAW data and how the DNG file is handled in post processing will be different than a color camera that is missing its CFA. I'd imagine that the red and blue pixels would not have the correct exposure relative to the green pixels due to their variable gain values in the file. If you plan on using M lenses, the M10M would also significantly outperform the Sony with its tuned microlens structure. So, yeah, I think there'd be a difference.
@@RedDotForum ??? "I'd imagine that the red and blue pixels would not have the correct exposure relative to the green pixels due to their variable gain values in the file" if both are monochrome sensors how can we speak od color pixels??
Haven't experienced this ourselves and can't think of an obvious reason why using a color filter on a B&W camera would alter the focus calibration. Sure, there is a focus shift in the infrared spectrum, but the camera is working with visible light, even when using a dark red filter.
Hi, converting a color photograph into a monochromatic photograph from a color sensor cannot and shall not be the same!! BECAUSE the Monochrom has already the base monochromatic look, and when you converting color into monochromatic you must manipulate the raw file and every manipulation deteriorated the base raw file! (Time stamp 53:17) Less is more the image will be cleaner. I really love your Red Dot Forum and channel ❤️👍🏻
You could actually take color photos with a monochrcamera, as well. You would have to take three photos with three different color filters, theb add colors and merge them in PS.
Yes, we've seen this technique and its pretty cool. Basically the same as how the Technicolor process worked for early color movies - three separate rolls of B&W film, each filtered for a different color, then projected using the same color filters.
The next time somebody thinks the Monochrome is a disfunctional camera because of its exposure curve issue, ask them to imagine a painter & why he or she would use multiple brushes and paints and God forbid, even had to adjust THEMSELF to the properties of those tools. Canon/Nikon & other modern digital brands have brainwashed people into criticizing the camera and lenses for faults in order to push you to continuously upgrade to the newest model because you felt that the old model in your hand was suddenly now a brick when it is really about how you try to use the strength of the tool in your hand to bring out the best in what you want to shoot. After all, if Canon/Nikon/Sony were in charge of paintbrushes and paints, they'd try to sell you on 1 single paint brush and one bottle of color changing paint that was supposed to do everything technically perfect every few years. Paintings from those would help you avoid criticism of your skill, as they were designed, but at the same time, would help you minimise any passionate response to your creations as well. For it is when you use tools to their best advantages and take them to the edge of their tolerances that you can create something that is not shot every day and help the viewer look for more than just a mere 2 seconds, and maybe even think of a meaning that's more than skin deep. Just IMHO.
how can I fix or change the proccesor of my typ 240? almost every year something happens to camera. service in germany do nothing after 2 visits. where to find the truth?
One thing I always think about is humidity when it comes to using my M lenses outdoors. Doha, my hometown, is probably as humid in the summer as Miami, if not more. It reaches 80% and sometimes 90% (without rain). Glass gets fogged up all the time because of the temperature differential. Is this a problem for M lenses in the long run? Any thoughts about that? I actually do not shoot in the summer cuz of this and the heat, of course. I am wondering what would you guys recommend for such climate?
Having lived and photographed in Miami for a number of decades, I've never had any issues with the humidity other than the annoyance of taking overnight chilled lenses sitting in A/C out into 90% humidity and waiting for haze to go away so I can get on with shooting. As long as your gear isn't sitting outside and is allowed to dry out indoors after use, I don't see any long-term danger.
RedDotForum I love both brands, and I can't choose one of them. I have the Omega limited edition 40 years Bond 007 and the Panerai 382. I love all the things that have a fascinating story behind them, like Leica😉😀
Nothing wrong with an M3 and 50 Cron! But the latest M10 Monochrom opens up creative possibilities simply not possible with film, like shooting at ISO 32,000.
While there is an increase in resolution vs. a full color camera due to the lack of interpolation, it is not 300% more. To see the real differences, I'd encourage you to check out our recent B&W ISO Showdown: www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/05/bw-iso-showdown-2020-leica-m10-monochrom-vs-m-monochrom-typ-246-vs-m10-p-vs-sl2/
RedDotForum ruclips.net/video/dNlix2WRy5M/видео.html Because it takes 3X the pixels to creat colors, it is 3X. The 40m megapixel monochrome has the resolution of a colored 120m megapixel sensor. Watch a comparison to a 150m megapixel sensor, it’s close and should be...because the 40m megapixel monochrome is only 30m megapixels short.
@@williaminbody205 ??? Remember that 50% of the pixels on a current color semsor with Bayer array are Green so your x3 gain does not seem to have much ground.
01:01:50 Exposing for hilights. This is my prob wth recent modern cameras...the rapid clipping of hilights. I don’t own any Leica bodies, just lenses. I see the same issue with the fuji xt3 and the canon R... real clipping hilights. I”ve been shooting digital since 2005 on a 20D and this seems exasperated In the past 5 years with newer cameras. Problem is , with the Wi-Fi features of these cameras, often folks ask for an immediate copy from Wi-Fi to phone. I shoot as you advise, expose for highlights then digging into shadows later. But that’s in lightroom. These cameras are competing with smartphones that shoot hdr on the sly, offering the public a computation on all image that is more akin to what folks see in real life. Shooting as you do on a digital camera gives me a great file to work on in lightroom, but a lousey file to share at the moment, Transferring raws to an iPhone or tablet is not doable. Transferring the underexposed jpg has its limits as far as boosting the shadows, although apple’s photo editor app is impressive,,, it even adds vignettes. We need, for digital Cameras, a lut that ensures that these high contrast, under exposed images can be resolved with a common shadow restore lut curve that resolves a jpg with a boosted shadow and midrange and a highlight that is rounded off naturally in software. I’m going to try to build these profiles using the profile and film sim LUTS on these cameras. Any ideas?
Using the Leica FOTOS app, you can easily transfer a single DNG, or a selection of DNG files, and use Lightroom Mobile to quickly edit your photo that you want to share. This might be a good workaround for you.
Very informative, thanks. Just one thing....you introduce yourselves full name but your assistants Jose and Kirsten, forgive me if I spelled their names wrong, are only first names. Think it would be civil if you introduced them with their full names. Just a thought, your choice of course.
An solid ND filter will reduce the amount of light coming into the lens, yes. This is useful for shooting lenses wide open with a mechanical shutter, or to slow down the shutter speed for moving water. But it doesn't change the contrast ratio of the scene or increase the dynamic range of the sensor. So, no, it will not protect blown highlights. The only way to do this is either bias your exposure to be darker if shooting in Manual, or use negative exposure compensation in Aperture Priority. The goal is to exposure for the highlights. If you have a spot meter, you could meter for the brightest part of the image, but the camera's meter is center-weighted and averages the light to arrive at an exposure. This can often lead to areas of the image that are blown-out. By exposing for the highlights, and letting the rest of the image go dark, you still have loads of information in the shadows, which can be lifted in post.
I don’t think it makes sense to use exposure comp on an M. That implies you use auto aperture and/or auto shutter. An M is all about using manual controls.
I've been shooting M cameras for 20 years and fully understand exposure theory. I proudly shoot in A mode for walkaround shooting. The most important aspects to me after composition and focus are controlling the DOF with aperture and having a fast enough shutter speed to get a crisp image. If I use Auto ISO and tell the camera to always keep the shutter speed above 1/250th, it will adjust the ISO accordingly. Which is exactly what I would do if I was shooting in M. But this gives me two less variables to have to keep track of when shooting. I can go from bright daylight to a dimly-lit room tracking a subject, without having to shift my attention to the ISO dial and shutter speed. I've already told the camera how I want it to behave. This leaves me free to concentrate on composition, framing, focusing, and selecting an appropriate aperture for creative impact. There's nothing wrong with shooting in Manual. But there's also nothing wrong with using Aperture Priority and Auto ISO.
@@RedDotForum sure, makes sense. But for most people that means not developing a sense for how the variables interact. Relying on the camera to decide often leads to sub-optimal outcomes. E.g., you may have been better at 1/200 shutter and a lower ISO. I'd rather decide myself. That's why I shoot an M.
Anyone comparing an M to an SL2 doesn’t understand the M. And the M lenses are second to none. They are better than the SL2 lenses (assuming you don’t care about AF).
M lenses are lovely, no doubt. I hold mine near and dear, and adore their beautiful rendering. But, from a pure performance perspective, the SL glass is the best that Leica has ever produced. Not my opinion - straight from Mr. Peter Karbe himself.
Monochrome shooter here for several years. A lot of incorrect information in this stream. First of all "No" you cannot get the same file as Monochrome from a color camera with LR adjustment. There is micro-contrast that simply cannot be replicated by a conversion. Also underexposing is a dumb idea. You need to learn about sensor saturation before speaking to the masses about underexposing and pulling information from highlights! Also, one of you need to read a manual.
Have you ever used an M10 monochrome? I have photographed for nearly 50 years and used tons of different cameras. I have owned an M10 monochrome for two months now (after an M6 and an M240), I totally agree with David and Josh: I have had to tame the beast, meaning it does not take overexposure well at all. Consequence you have to expose for the highlights and often end up with very dark shadows (underexposed) and because of the excellent dynamic range of the sensor (about 14 EVs I guess) you then have to "pull information from the low lights/shadows (not the "highlights" by the way, listen or write carefully in the future ;o). As for "sensor saturation" I must confess I have never heard the concept before, could you explain? Thanks.
@@BrunoChalifour When you expose for highlights you will loose information in the shadows. When you pull out the shadows they will look FLAT. So you need to choose the best exposure for each scene to not blow the highlights but still get max information in the shadows. That's the idea of sensor saturation: you want to make your sensor gather as much information as possible. If you do that you images will have better colors and micro contrast (3D pop). I don't own an M10M but I said stands true for all digital cameras.
@@BrunoChalifour Also, to my previous note. This was posted yesterday and explains what I was talking about -> ruclips.net/video/IA0dOMQQMpI/видео.html
@@arsenikkkk "When you expose for highlights you will loose information in the shadows." > Not necessarily it really depends on the scene photographed (its contrast) and on the dynamic range of the sensor... if you go beyond that range (in both directions either highlights or shadows), yes, obviously and that is basic. Nothing new here. "When you pull out the shadows they will look FLAT." > Not necessarily (although by their very nature shadow areas have low contrast), it really depends on the scene photographed (its contrast), on the dynamic range of the sensor, and the way you expose and process your files (Raw format allowing more lee-way) ... if you go beyond that range, yes, obviously. Still nothing new here. "So you need to choose the best exposure for each scene to not blow the highlights but still get max information in the shadows." > Yep, quite obvious and basic here again. Sometimes getting a maximum information in both the highlights AND shadows is easy (in the case of a diffused soft light source, for instance), and sometimes not (harsh light producing a contrast going beyond the sensor's dynamic range in which case even with the best exposure possible you will have to sacrifice one end of the histogram, either the highlights or (exclusive here) the shadows): no new information here either. "That's the idea of sensor saturation: you want to make your sensor gather as much information as possible. If you do that you images will have better colors" [not relevant for the topic we are discussing here, M10 Monochrome] and micro contrast (3D pop)." > Hmmm, not quite clear to me yet, when does a sensor saturates? When the contrast of the scene exceeds the dynamic range? When the image is over or under-exposed? "I don't own an M10M but I said stands true for all digital cameras." > Josh's and David's point was that it does not apply to all digital cameras in the same fashion and that the M10 monochrome (all monochrome cameras in fact, if I understood them well) behaves differently from any color digital cameras because Monochromes only have one channel to play with (grayscale) instead of three (RGB). They are pointing out, to use your term with what I understand of it (maybe I am using it with a different meaning as your definition is not still quite clear to me), that the sensor of a Monchrome camera "saturates" in the highlights far more easily and as a result we should not expect to retrieve any information even if the image/sensor has been slightly overexposed (all overexposed highlights will just be rendered by a flat white). To elaborate on the previous sentences: Monochromes have only one channel (gray scale) and no other channel to retrieve information from, Color digital cameras have B, G and R pixels that do not record the same intensity of light (luminance) as they do not have the same sensitivity and the colored filters in front of them may not have the same intensity density (Bayer array), this makes retrieving information from the less sensitive channels (blue for instance) possible in color files, and impossible in grayscale files. The dynamic range of the sensor of any camera does also extend in the shadows though (and this is very much at play with the M10 Monochrome) and makes it easier to retrieve information there. True there is usually less contrast in the shadow areas. Details there may look flat (which they are in the real world), however this can be fixed- to some extent, agreed- in any image-processing software, especially Lightroom, Photoshop, DxO, etc. ...
I just stumbled on to this channel , thought they need less talk . I own and use an m monochrome , a great camera , i do everything black and white , Analogue and digital , fiber prints in the tray and epson ultrachrome ink jet prints .
While the concept of a monochrome sensor might be obvious to some, we have an audience with a wide range of experience and understanding. Our goal is to try to provide information to as many as we can. We'd much rather bring everyone along than gloss over a concept or rush through it. Our approach might take longer, but we feel it's justified....and based on feedback we've received, it is appreciated by the majority of our viewers.
opens with absolutely the best explanation of how a sensor works... love it!
Glad it was helpful!
Watching this segment live during lockdown was a fantastic birthday present. Rewatched it again today. So much great information if you’re thinking about a MONOCHROM purchase. I have the M9M but need a 2nd body. RDF’s technical expertise and experience has helped greatly in my research and decision.TY
I bought an M Monochrom Typ 246, and it's image quality has astounded me
I love rewatching past episodes. David's explanation of sensors, signal to noise, color channel noise response is exceptional
Excellent video thats encouraged me to buy an M10 Monochrome instead of a Type 246
One small aside, Josh, I followed up on your recommendation for David Carol's No Plan B which he documents on the B&H Channel. He emphasizes that all images were shot on a Leica FILM camera. Very good pictures, but not an insight into the Monochrom. :-}
Brilliant video. Thank you for such an informative video on the M10 Monochrom and black and white photography in general. The best I’ve seen yet. Keep it up guys. Thank you so much
Thanks. So glad you liked it.
Thank you so much for this interesting cession ! I really liked your explanation "Expose for the highlights and shoot for Post"
Always protect those highlights!
You kind of dismissed the use of an ND filter, but if you want to shoot wide open on a fast lens for the shallow depth of field, my 246 experience is that the 320 min ISO may require it-even at very high shutter speeds. Thoughts? Great discussion!
I use my M8(.2) a lot with a 720nm IR-pass filter. No sensor modification. ISO 640, f/5.6, handheld, mainly with a 28mm using an IR focus offset. Shutter speeds usually in the 1/45-1/125th sec. range. Lotsa fun…it’s a unique look.
LOVE your show, Love your explanations! And as a M246 owner, Nice to know exactly what are the advantages. And as you state 32:30 - It's a totally different and constrained workflow.
So glad you liked it.
Very useful information. Thanks! I have viewed this episode several times, and selectively viewed specific parts even more. The Showdown at the Red Dot Forum has also been very helpful. Thus far, my take-away is that I do not need to be in any hurry to “upgrade” to an M10 Monochrom, as the 246 remains competitive. It makes more sense to keep using my M10 and M 246 cameras, and, perhaps, add a lens.
Thank you for your excellent and very-detailed presentations (again). I have watched this one several times before and after acquiring my M10 Monochrome. I totally support your advice to expose for the highlights. In my experience (2 months of photographing almost daily) the M10 mono has no tolerance for over-exposure and thanks to its excellent dynamic range (toward low exposure) high tolerance in the lowlights/shadows. So yes, expose for the highlights and get the details back in the shadows in any image-processing software (it works even for images taken in July at 12 p.m. on a bright sunny day). [PS: Josh say hi from me from Rochester to John Latimer.]
Glad you found it helpful, and that you've taken exposing for the highlights to heart. The M10M is an absolutely amazing camera, but does require a little bit of finesse given its lack of highlight range.
Thanks for all the info here! I recently picked up an M9 (not the mono) as a budget way to try out the digital M system. I love the color files it produces, but I have to say the B&W conversions look amazing and it is making me think about also getting a monochrom in the future. The new M11M sounds amazing, but I'll probably need to stick to the "budget" models like the M9M or the 246. I'll have to check out your showdown article with the two cameras. BTW, I think my uncoated 50mm Summitar (from my IIIf) looks great on my M9 (and on my Sony a7RII) especially in B&W.
I have a 246, it’s a brilliant camera, you won’t be disappointed if you do plunge for one👍
@@MykeWinters Thanks, it is still on my mind. Maybe next year after I sell some other gear.
@@GrainAndPixels yes, I had to save up for mine as well, a secondhand one, couldn’t afford a new one. I also saved up for a elmarit-m 28mm f2.8 asph and a 50mm cron f2 v5. Which lense were you thinking of paring up with the 264?
Very informative and entertaining. Thank you for all the work you put into these videos.
You're very welcome! Thanks for watching.
Outstanding talk. Thank you David & Josh.
Our pleasure!
The bit on 'highlight latitude' is where the magic is.
Thank you very much for a splendid talk, I live in the UK so I watch the replay. I use the Monochrom Type 246, Elmar 24mm f3.8 plus orange filter in landscape photography. The range of tones I achieve in the sky remind me so much of the darkroom prints from years ago then using an Orange or Yellow filter on Black and White Film. Digital Colour conversions come near but in my opinion they don't quite match it.
Love that 24 Elmar. What a great match for the M246! And you're absolutely correct. With an orange filter, the files really come to life for landscape photography. Definitely the most useful of the color filters on the M Monochrom.
More vintage lens talk please!! So many gems to use with the MM like the Summicron 8e, Rigid Summicron, Elmar 50mm f3.5/f2.8, etc. It’s worth a whole video : )
Thanks for the suggestion. We do love talking about lenses!
I really do love these videos. I will be placing my M10M order with you all very soon. Thanks for doing what you do!!
I love a red filter on B&W photography, Orson Welles loved to use wide angle lenses in his movies (often a 18.5mm cine lens) with a red filter. It is obviously "intense" but if that's the look you are going for, a red filter is pretty amazing.
For sure. The drama created with a red filter is difficult to replicate in post processing.
I have a red 25, a red 29 and a yellow 8 filters. The red 25 is the one I use the most, especially on sunny days. The yellow 8 I like to use on portraits. But this is me, lol
Love your camera talk sessions. Pls keep them coming. Would like to see more pictures to illustrate your points.
Thanks for the feedback. We're always looking improve and have discussed the idea of showing sample images.
I found this video very very interesting and helpful to me as I debate whether to scratch the itch and buy a monochrome camera. So the Q is which one to buy? If I don’t need the astonishing low light performance of the M10M, I presume the M246 will give comparable results under normal light conditions. Do the sensors of the M246 and M10M render very differently under normal daylightconditions. Any thoughts from those here that have experience with both? The price difference is big for an amateur.
Hi, Thanks for your videos. I would like to ask you for an advice, which 50mm lens could I associate with my leica M9M. To compensate the lack of color, I'm looking for a lens with a lot of details. Thank you
Excellent episode as always. I think Leica Miami should come up with a Leica M10 Monochrom in a glossy black paint over brass as a special edition for the store. Maybe with a 28mm summicron with the same paint.
Ooooh. An M10 Monochrom in glossy black lacquer would look awesome.
Useful video. What is the “shading correction” in the M10M menu for?
Answered this for another user already. The shading correction is an in-camera correction applied to DNG and JPG files to reduce/eliminate lens vignetting for lenses which have a valid 6-bit code or where the user has selected a lens profile. Some photographers prefer the effect of a natural lens vignette so Leica has given the option to use or disable.
Good job guys! Enjoyed it.
Glad to hear it!
Love your video I've learnt a lot from you two thanks .I'm hoping to be given a lieca camera but dont know which one yet.
Our pleasure!
Great content and super pleasant to watch !!
Much appreciated!
The M8 requires no conversion to shoot infrared (both black and white or false color infrared). You can just put the filter on the lens and go for it. There is a slight focus shift that you have to experiment with. And you can often shoot handheld (but a tripod might be better). I use the old Leica IR filter (that is NOT an IR cut filter, it's nearly black or at least very deep red) for black and white and a red Kodak 25A filter (also Leica) for false color. I still have my M8 and infrared is what I use it for. Way easier than using infrared film.
Sooo??? What has this to do with the M10 monochrome?
@@BrunoChalifour I didn't record the point in the video but the subject came up sometime during the video! Since I'm 63 and it's been a month and I can't even remember what I went into the kitchen for, I can't remember what. They probably talked about IR sensitivity or the M8's usefulness.
@@carbondragon Hi, I can relate... thanks for responding. Best,
My poor man’s Fugi X-10 also gives great infrared results just by holding a R72 filter over the lens and switching to the B&W film simulation. No need to pay for a conversion. Maybe can afford an M10 in my next lifetime.
@@BrunoChalifour They talked about the M8 in this video in it's IR role. They claimed that you would have to convert the sensor. That is why the comment is relevant.
A Leica Monochrom and a vintage Noctilux 1.0 is magic. It just transforms the lens. I always loved using film with the Noct. But the Monochrom creates amazing sharpness from that lens. I had the never version of the lens. But I like the vignetting of the older 50mm more than crazy sharpness from the never version.
I shoot the M10M, 246, and SL2 HARD, pushed to the limits a lot, with the premium SL APO and M glass...(cannot say exactly who for rn...) but the M10M w 50mm APO f/2, and 75mm Noct ... simply SMOKE as the pairing of choice so long as you know what you’re doing and understand your gear. Practice practice practice... As much as I love the SL2, it can be “broken”... yeah true monochrom is a “look” as you say, cannot be duplicated.
Great video, thanks! Waiting for one on M lenses...
Thanks. We're definitely planning an episode (or more) on M lenses.
01:24:00
Vintage lenses on a high mp Leica monochrome.
Forwarding this thought from when the 50mp canon FF was introduced a few years back...
The concern was a 50 megapixels camera bing introduced onto a lens platform that had only been occupied by 25 MP cameras. This was at a B&H promo for the camera.
One speaker mentioned that the lenses were analog, the cameras were digital. A high mega pixel camera, therefore, would capture MORE of the qualities of the analog lens than a camera half the megapixels, both good and bad qualities of the lens.
The way he represented it was the realities that unlike film, the digital sensor represents where data is DISCARDED discretely, from the analog world. So a sensor that captured several orders of magnitude more of that reality, be they beauty or flaws, is definitely a feather in ones cap.
I thought that it was a rather unbiased way of describing the affects of a higher capture tech on old analog lenses. So if your lens had a lot of CA and distortion, like my old canon 50mm at 1.4, it kinda sucked anyway on a 18mp sensor as it would on a 50mp. However my f1.4 summilux 50mm is on its fourth body for a reason.
Short of talking special purpose high detail architecture or landscape photos, or commercial product photography, and short of side by side comparisons to a 50mm apo, I think folks would enjoy seeing a higher fidelity capture thru their favorite lens.
This was very. helpful. My M10M has become the favorite tool in the kit. Thank you. I didn't catch what card you recommend for this camera.
Agreed. The M10 Monochrom is amazing. I suggest the Lexar Professional 1667x 256GB SDXC UHS-II. amzn.to/2Z3e2XS
Thanks Guys....
This show was Great!!
Thanks!
Great video guys. One question, if it was your money, which would you buy, the 246 or M10M?
M10 Monochrom, but the M246 is nothing to sneeze at! Have you checked out the ISO Showdown yet? I put these two head-to-head: www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/05/bw-iso-showdown-2020-leica-m10-monochrom-vs-m-monochrom-typ-246-vs-m10-p-vs-sl2/
RedDotForum I did! Thanks for the article, I found it really comprehensive. High ISO is less useful for me personally since I prefer base in most of my shooting situations. However, it’s crazy how well the M10M does. I’m stuck on the decision bc I’d rather move the price difference to glass and travel, so I’m almost looking for a reason to stop drooling for the newer body.
What about the Xtrans Sensor by Fuji in terms of color array vs Bayer?
Haven't done any comparisons, but the X-Trans sensor architecture is only available in APS-C size, not for full frame.
Great info, thanks! Can you provide link for the reddot camera comparison that you mentioned when it's ready?
Sure thing: www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/05/bw-iso-showdown-2020-leica-m10-monochrom-vs-m-monochrom-typ-246-vs-m10-p-vs-sl2/
Great talk...thanks for all the good information
Glad you enjoyed it!
Would love for Fujifilm to release a Monochrome X-Pro body at a much lower price than the Leica..
Not sure Fuji would do this. Have you considered a pre-owned M Monochrom?
...zero chances! 😭
www.fujirumors.com/fujifilm-manager-x100v-x-t3-firmware-fujifilm-x-h2-will-come-zero-monochrome-chances-32-megapixel-limit-for-current-xf-lenses-more/
“Monochrome Camera for Fuji X series 10th anniversary?
there are zero chances that Fujifilm makes a monochrome camera for the 10th anniversary of the Fujifilm X series”
@@TheVFXbyArt It's nice to dream....
You hit something essential in the beginning and forgot to elaborate that a bit more.
The whole technical concept of Monochrome and S/N ratio is more than clear to me but you made some remarks at 11:45 about *boosting separate color signals* (captured by separate photodiodes) because of the amount of filtering (as you were saying). This is also more than clear to me and not new.
This, of course, will be done digitally and since the sensor is an analogous device, (hence the A/D convertor behind it) this amplification will be done by the software or *firmware*.
Still with me,
Now there are companies that remove the color filter array to get a so called monochrome camera, however they can not alter the firmware.
So the amount of light on the separate RGB color diodes (not filtered) is still amplified, however since it is not filtered by the color array above, it wil boost the signal *unevenly* cause the firmware is not altered.
Your thoughts on that please (yes it is deep but please indulge me ;-)
In addition to your story allow me to share this site (where the opposite is done) *Mono to Color* by Filters.
wilddogdesign.co.uk/blog/monochroming-colour-sensor-colour-photography-monochrom/
Thanks for sharing (Leica shooter here too) that's why I follow your channel/forum , and stay safe !!
Very interesting! Hadn't really thought about the fact that the firmware and downstream processing software would still attempt to employ standard debayering with selective color channel gain.
As far as the link, I couldn't bring myself to watch the willful destruction of that poor sensor. Obviously, omitting the low pass filter will improve sharpness, which is why you won't find a low pass filter on any Leica camera. But... getting rid of microlenses throws out the baby with the bathwater. Leica's optical department has engineered special microlens structures in order to work with high incident angle M lenses. M lenses simply don't perform as well on non-Leica cameras due to the difference in microlenses and sensor design.
And I had indeed seen the practice of using three filtered captures to generate a single color image. This was how the Technicolor process was done - three simultaneous strips of 35mm film were run through the movie with three matching lenses. The triple film went through editing together and ultimately were projected back through three color filters to make an on-screen color image. Everything old is new again!
Fantastic stuff - thank you guys
Our pleasure!
Greeting to Josh from RIT!
The highlight of my week; your shows. I have three questions: 1. In the menu of the M10 Monochrom there is a setting 'Shading correction'. What is this setting do? On default it set to 'On'. 2. I am using Capture One for post processing. You always refer to Lightroom. Is there a specific reason for this? 3. I am interested in the Monochrom workshop in Paris. Where can I subscribe?
Thanks! To answer your questions:
1) The shading correction applies correction to the DNG file in camera for any lens vignetting, if either there is a valid 6-bit code read or the user has selected a lens profile manually. You may not see much of a difference for most lenses, as Leica lenses tend to not suffer much from vignetting, but certainly play with it on and off. Also, some photographers might like the effect of natural optical vignetting, especially on vintage glass. As such, Leica has given the user the choice to use or disable this feature.
2) Leica and Adobe work very closely together to optimize DNG quality. This partnership started in 2009 and continues today. Capture One is fine, but does not fully support Leica DNG files, since Phase One views Leica as a competitor. We also use other programs in the Adobe Creative Suite, so Lightroom is a natural choice. For landscape photography, features like HDR multi-shot DNG or multi-shot pano DNGs are incredible and indispensable. And Lightroom is also an amzing organizational tool in addition to RAW processor. The bottom line is that if you are comfortable using C1 and are pleased with the results it gives you, by all means, continue on with C1. But, don't be afraid to try out Lightroom with Adobe's free 30 day trial.
3) You can subscribe to Leica Store Miami's email newsletter to be alerted to upcoming workshops and events: mailchi.mp/leicastoremiami.com/rdfcameratalk
Wonderful talk & good info... but I was hoping the "surprise at the end" would be an announcement of the M10R. Oh well.
Sorry to disappoint. Hopefully, the ISO Showdown was helpful though.
I would have bought the M Monochrom but after using the Griii I went for the colour one
Hi guys thanks again for a great talk. Have you compared files to converted M10R files?
Not yet! Sadly, the M10-R came out after we did our big B&W ISO showdown. Otherwise it would have been included.
Thank you for your great videos
Could you tell us when you think the SL mono will be coming out
Really need the autofocus
We tend to doubt that Leica will ever offer a dedicated SL Monochrom. If you need the capabilities of the SL2, get an SL2 and convert to B&W. If you need the absolute pinnacle of B&W performance, get the M10M. As far as AF goes, there focusing techniques that can help greatly with speed and accuracy on an M. Check out our M-System videos where we covered some of those.
I'm totally 100% OK with my less than one year old 246 and 35 summilux until the M10M is widely available, but I WAS wondering if there is a buy back program going on or in the works for 246 to M10M.
Leica doesn't have a program for this, and hasn't historically offered Monochrom trade-in programs in the past. But, you can always trade-in your Leica gear at Leica Store Miami. They give 80% of market value for trade-ins. leicastoremiami.com/pages/trade-in-form
@@RedDotForum That's a bummer, but also - thanks for letting me know what you guys offer in Miami. I'm in the Bay Area and have no idea what they offer. Not exactly a warm and fuzzy group at the SF store. But anyway ... 80% sounds like a fair deal. Too bad the M10M is scarce at this time.
Y’all crack me up! “Ya don’t...ya don’t need a 1.4!” And now I’m obsessed with the M10M 🤦🏾♂️
Really need an SL monochrom ... w those new SL lenses - wowwwsa... talk about pure!...
Regarding your last question with Leica M10 Monochrome extreme resolution for print. Can one make a bigger and better crop with M10 Monochrome than with Leica SL2 and Leica q2 (28/35/50/75 / ? More detailed? It would be cool. 28 mm to 90 mm?
Probably very similar. Take a look at my B&W ISO Showdown and see the how the M10 Monochrom and SL2 match up at each ISO: www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/05/bw-iso-showdown-2020-leica-m10-monochrom-vs-m-monochrom-typ-246-vs-m10-p-vs-sl2/
When will the monochrome 10m be available in the USA? Every website I go to says pre-order since it was announced. Thank you.
Just like any new release from Leica, on-the-shelf availability usually takes a number of months. Add in the current global situation, with no cameras being produced, and the wait has become even longer than usual. And the cameras that have shipped have all gone to customers who pre-ordered.
RedDotForum Understood, thank you. I did pre-order through Leica Miami store as soon as announcement came out. I’ll check with them, I’m just surprised to see quite a few people already have their hands on it in these RUclips videos. Thanks again.
You can set any digital M to shoot in B+W (JPEG). Try it! You can even do RAW+B+W JPEG. The screen only shows B+W.
The question remains - when will this actually become available? The 246 is so freaking incredible - it doesn't totally matter how long I need to wait, but it would be nice to have an idea. I know - it's really kind of a "wait and see".
They’re trickling out now. Used mine properly for the first time this afternoon.
Great info! thanx. but my Q2 seems to often overexpose. expessialy in multifield mode. i have to trust my eyes instead;) and stop down to minus 0.6 or one stop. it happends in shots i good whether, sun. i have heard about this before, any tips ? my Nikon dont do that in matrix mode. i love the Q2 anyway. i expose for hightligts but it dont reacts really correct. not a mono cam..but ask anyway:)
Josh and I routinely dial in negative EV on almost all the cameras we shoot with. With so much shadow information and the ability to recover details, there is no reason to risk blown out highlights. Try center weight metering mode on the Q2 - you might find it more accurate. Or, simply keep doing what you're doing. Enable highlight warning in live view so you can see if there are any blown highlights, then just turn down the EV to compensate.
I take back my ND comment-you did! I just didn’t wait long enough. My bad…
So, sometimes when I use a orange or red filter on my 246 MM, I find that that the data is off in Lightroom. If I shoot at 5.6, Lightroom data says F22 etc. is that just my version of LR? Or something to do with the meter in the camera?
I figured out why. Secondary meter
I know this is an old thread, but will a red filter not focus properly because of the wavelength?
The red filter darkens blue tones and increases contrast, but does not shift the wavelength out of the visible spectrum. So focusing is unaffected. If this was an IR filter that blocked all visible light, then yes, focusing would indeed shift.
Hi RDF guys ... please put the Logo “RED DOT FORUM/ CAMERA TALK” just right down the screen...
If you were to convert a Sony Alpha 7iii to monochrome, would there be a difference between the M10 M and a Sony Monochrome (converted camera)?
The M10M was purpose-built to be a black and white camera. The handling of the RAW data and how the DNG file is handled in post processing will be different than a color camera that is missing its CFA. I'd imagine that the red and blue pixels would not have the correct exposure relative to the green pixels due to their variable gain values in the file. If you plan on using M lenses, the M10M would also significantly outperform the Sony with its tuned microlens structure. So, yeah, I think there'd be a difference.
@@RedDotForum ??? "I'd imagine that the red and blue pixels would not have the correct exposure relative to the green pixels due to their variable gain values in the file" if both are monochrome sensors how can we speak od color pixels??
How about the rangefinder not working properly when using a color filter on a monochrome camera? Some users have discussed this as a major issue.
Haven't experienced this ourselves and can't think of an obvious reason why using a color filter on a B&W camera would alter the focus calibration. Sure, there is a focus shift in the infrared spectrum, but the camera is working with visible light, even when using a dark red filter.
@@RedDotForum Indeed. It seems very odd, because people have been using color filters on film Leicas for 100 years.
Hi, converting a color photograph into a monochromatic photograph from a color sensor cannot and shall not be the same!!
BECAUSE the Monochrom has already the base monochromatic look, and when you converting color into monochromatic you must manipulate the raw file and every manipulation deteriorated the base raw file! (Time stamp 53:17)
Less is more the image will be cleaner.
I really love your Red Dot Forum and channel ❤️👍🏻
You could actually take color photos with a monochrcamera, as well. You would have to take three photos with three different color filters, theb add colors and merge them in PS.
Yes, we've seen this technique and its pretty cool. Basically the same as how the Technicolor process worked for early color movies - three separate rolls of B&W film, each filtered for a different color, then projected using the same color filters.
on the desk there is the value of a flat with 4 rooms in Italy.
The next time somebody thinks the Monochrome is a disfunctional camera because of its exposure curve issue, ask them to imagine a painter & why he or she would use multiple brushes and paints and God forbid, even had to adjust THEMSELF to the properties of those tools. Canon/Nikon & other modern digital brands have brainwashed people into criticizing the camera and lenses for faults in order to push you to continuously upgrade to the newest model because you felt that the old model in your hand was suddenly now a brick when it is really about how you try to use the strength of the tool in your hand to bring out the best in what you want to shoot. After all, if Canon/Nikon/Sony were in charge of paintbrushes and paints, they'd try to sell you on 1 single paint brush and one bottle of color changing paint that was supposed to do everything technically perfect every few years. Paintings from those would help you avoid criticism of your skill, as they were designed, but at the same time, would help you minimise any passionate response to your creations as well. For it is when you use tools to their best advantages and take them to the edge of their tolerances that you can create something that is not shot every day and help the viewer look for more than just a mere 2 seconds, and maybe even think of a meaning that's more than skin deep. Just IMHO.
how can I fix or change the proccesor of my typ 240? almost every year something happens to camera. service in germany do nothing after 2 visits. where to find the truth?
Leica service is very good. I would update the firmware to the latest and buy a new SD card.
One thing I always think about is humidity when it comes to using my M lenses outdoors. Doha, my hometown, is probably as humid in the summer as Miami, if not more. It reaches 80% and sometimes 90% (without rain). Glass gets fogged up all the time because of the temperature differential. Is this a problem for M lenses in the long run? Any thoughts about that? I actually do not shoot in the summer cuz of this and the heat, of course. I am wondering what would you guys recommend for such climate?
Having lived and photographed in Miami for a number of decades, I've never had any issues with the humidity other than the annoyance of taking overnight chilled lenses sitting in A/C out into 90% humidity and waiting for haze to go away so I can get on with shooting. As long as your gear isn't sitting outside and is allowed to dry out indoors after use, I don't see any long-term danger.
@@RedDotForum Thanks.
All the terms and details and knowledge needed to just take good pictures with these cameras is preventing me from getting into the hobby
I only say Omega Vs Panerai
Which do you prefer? Because David also has a Panerai. We just don't want to match like twins! :)
RedDotForum I love both brands, and I can't choose one of them. I have the Omega limited edition 40 years Bond 007 and the Panerai 382. I love all the things that have a fascinating story behind them, like Leica😉😀
damn... thank you for the informative video but I will just take a vintage M3/50 cron and 1000 rolls of film.
Nothing wrong with an M3 and 50 Cron! But the latest M10 Monochrom opens up creative possibilities simply not possible with film, like shooting at ISO 32,000.
The cameras on the table can actually buy a car
abel greeve A Bentley!!
The resolution is 3X in a monochrome.
While there is an increase in resolution vs. a full color camera due to the lack of interpolation, it is not 300% more. To see the real differences, I'd encourage you to check out our recent B&W ISO Showdown: www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/05/bw-iso-showdown-2020-leica-m10-monochrom-vs-m-monochrom-typ-246-vs-m10-p-vs-sl2/
RedDotForum ruclips.net/video/dNlix2WRy5M/видео.html
Because it takes 3X the pixels to creat colors, it is 3X. The 40m megapixel monochrome has the resolution of a colored 120m megapixel sensor. Watch a comparison to a 150m megapixel sensor, it’s close and should be...because the 40m megapixel monochrome is only 30m megapixels short.
@@williaminbody205 ??? Remember that 50% of the pixels on a current color semsor with Bayer array are Green so your x3 gain does not seem to have much ground.
01:01:50
Exposing for hilights. This is my prob wth recent modern cameras...the rapid clipping of hilights.
I don’t own any Leica bodies, just lenses. I see the same issue with the fuji xt3 and the canon R... real clipping hilights.
I”ve been shooting digital since 2005 on a 20D and this seems exasperated In the past 5 years with newer cameras.
Problem is , with the Wi-Fi features of these cameras, often folks ask for an immediate copy from Wi-Fi to phone.
I shoot as you advise, expose for highlights then digging into shadows later. But that’s in lightroom.
These cameras are competing with smartphones that shoot hdr on the sly, offering the public a computation on all image that is more akin to what folks see in real life. Shooting as you do on a digital camera gives me a great file to work on in lightroom, but a lousey file to share at the moment,
Transferring raws to an iPhone or tablet is not doable. Transferring the underexposed jpg has its limits as far as boosting the shadows, although apple’s photo editor app is impressive,,, it even adds vignettes.
We need, for digital Cameras, a lut that ensures that these high contrast, under exposed images can be resolved with a common shadow restore lut curve that resolves a jpg with a boosted shadow and midrange and a highlight that is rounded off naturally in software.
I’m going to try to build these profiles using the profile and film sim LUTS on these cameras.
Any ideas?
Using the Leica FOTOS app, you can easily transfer a single DNG, or a selection of DNG files, and use Lightroom Mobile to quickly edit your photo that you want to share. This might be a good workaround for you.
Simple
Very informative, thanks. Just one thing....you introduce yourselves full name but your assistants Jose and Kirsten, forgive me if I spelled their names wrong, are only first names. Think it would be civil if you introduced them with their full names. Just a thought, your choice of course.
Thanks for pointing this out. Jose Rovira and Kirsten Vignes are highly valued members of our team. We certainly didn't mean any disrespect.
An ND filter will reduce exposure! Why would you say otherwise? So of course, an ND filter will reduce blown highlights.
An solid ND filter will reduce the amount of light coming into the lens, yes. This is useful for shooting lenses wide open with a mechanical shutter, or to slow down the shutter speed for moving water. But it doesn't change the contrast ratio of the scene or increase the dynamic range of the sensor. So, no, it will not protect blown highlights. The only way to do this is either bias your exposure to be darker if shooting in Manual, or use negative exposure compensation in Aperture Priority. The goal is to exposure for the highlights. If you have a spot meter, you could meter for the brightest part of the image, but the camera's meter is center-weighted and averages the light to arrive at an exposure. This can often lead to areas of the image that are blown-out. By exposing for the highlights, and letting the rest of the image go dark, you still have loads of information in the shadows, which can be lifted in post.
I don’t think it makes sense to use exposure comp on an M. That implies you use auto aperture and/or auto shutter. An M is all about using manual controls.
I've been shooting M cameras for 20 years and fully understand exposure theory. I proudly shoot in A mode for walkaround shooting. The most important aspects to me after composition and focus are controlling the DOF with aperture and having a fast enough shutter speed to get a crisp image. If I use Auto ISO and tell the camera to always keep the shutter speed above 1/250th, it will adjust the ISO accordingly. Which is exactly what I would do if I was shooting in M. But this gives me two less variables to have to keep track of when shooting. I can go from bright daylight to a dimly-lit room tracking a subject, without having to shift my attention to the ISO dial and shutter speed. I've already told the camera how I want it to behave. This leaves me free to concentrate on composition, framing, focusing, and selecting an appropriate aperture for creative impact. There's nothing wrong with shooting in Manual. But there's also nothing wrong with using Aperture Priority and Auto ISO.
@@RedDotForum sure, makes sense. But for most people that means not developing a sense for how the variables interact. Relying on the camera to decide often leads to sub-optimal outcomes. E.g., you may have been better at 1/200 shutter and a lower ISO. I'd rather decide myself. That's why I shoot an M.
Anyone comparing an M to an SL2 doesn’t understand the M. And the M lenses are second to none. They are better than the SL2 lenses (assuming you don’t care about AF).
M lenses are lovely, no doubt. I hold mine near and dear, and adore their beautiful rendering. But, from a pure performance perspective, the SL glass is the best that Leica has ever produced. Not my opinion - straight from Mr. Peter Karbe himself.
Monochrome shooter here for several years. A lot of incorrect information in this stream. First of all "No" you cannot get the same file as Monochrome from a color camera with LR adjustment. There is micro-contrast that simply cannot be replicated by a conversion. Also underexposing is a dumb idea. You need to learn about sensor saturation before speaking to the masses about underexposing and pulling information from highlights! Also, one of you need to read a manual.
Have you ever used an M10 monochrome? I have photographed for nearly 50 years and used tons of different cameras. I have owned an M10 monochrome for two months now (after an M6 and an M240), I totally agree with David and Josh: I have had to tame the beast, meaning it does not take overexposure well at all. Consequence you have to expose for the highlights and often end up with very dark shadows (underexposed) and because of the excellent dynamic range of the sensor (about 14 EVs I guess) you then have to "pull information from the low lights/shadows (not the "highlights" by the way, listen or write carefully in the future ;o). As for "sensor saturation" I must confess I have never heard the concept before, could you explain? Thanks.
@@BrunoChalifour When you expose for highlights you will loose information in the shadows. When you pull out the shadows they will look FLAT. So you need to choose the best exposure for each scene to not blow the highlights but still get max information in the shadows. That's the idea of sensor saturation: you want to make your sensor gather as much information as possible. If you do that you images will have better colors and micro contrast (3D pop). I don't own an M10M but I said stands true for all digital cameras.
@@BrunoChalifour Also, to my previous note. This was posted yesterday and explains what I was talking about -> ruclips.net/video/IA0dOMQQMpI/видео.html
@@arsenikkkk "When you expose for highlights you will loose information in the shadows."
> Not necessarily it really depends on the scene photographed (its contrast) and on the dynamic range of the sensor... if you go beyond that range (in both directions either highlights or shadows), yes, obviously and that is basic. Nothing new here.
"When you pull out the shadows they will look FLAT."
> Not necessarily (although by their very nature shadow areas have low contrast), it really depends on the scene photographed (its contrast), on the dynamic range of the sensor, and the way you expose and process your files (Raw format allowing more lee-way) ... if you go beyond that range, yes, obviously. Still nothing new here.
"So you need to choose the best exposure for each scene to not blow the highlights but still get max information in the shadows."
> Yep, quite obvious and basic here again. Sometimes getting a maximum information in both the highlights AND shadows is easy (in the case of a diffused soft light source, for instance), and sometimes not (harsh light producing a contrast going beyond the sensor's dynamic range in which case even with the best exposure possible you will have to sacrifice one end of the histogram, either the highlights or (exclusive here) the shadows): no new information here either.
"That's the idea of sensor saturation: you want to make your sensor gather as much information as possible. If you do that you images will have better colors" [not relevant for the topic we are discussing here, M10 Monochrome] and micro contrast (3D pop)."
> Hmmm, not quite clear to me yet, when does a sensor saturates? When the contrast of the scene exceeds the dynamic range? When the image is over or under-exposed?
"I don't own an M10M but I said stands true for all digital cameras."
> Josh's and David's point was that it does not apply to all digital cameras in the same fashion and that the M10 monochrome (all monochrome cameras in fact, if I understood them well) behaves differently from any color digital cameras because Monochromes only have one channel to play with (grayscale) instead of three (RGB). They are pointing out, to use your term with what I understand of it (maybe I am using it with a different meaning as your definition is not still quite clear to me), that the sensor of a Monchrome camera "saturates" in the highlights far more easily and as a result we should not expect to retrieve any information even if the image/sensor has been slightly overexposed (all overexposed highlights will just be rendered by a flat white). To elaborate on the previous sentences: Monochromes have only one channel (gray scale) and no other channel to retrieve information from, Color digital cameras have B, G and R pixels that do not record the same intensity of light (luminance) as they do not have the same sensitivity and the colored filters in front of them may not have the same intensity density (Bayer array), this makes retrieving information from the less sensitive channels (blue for instance) possible in color files, and impossible in grayscale files. The dynamic range of the sensor of any camera does also extend in the shadows though (and this is very much at play with the M10 Monochrome) and makes it easier to retrieve information there. True there is usually less contrast in the shadow areas. Details there may look flat (which they are in the real world), however this can be fixed- to some extent, agreed- in any image-processing software, especially Lightroom, Photoshop, DxO, etc. ...
Leica snobs
Why do you watch then? Have you ever used a Leica M for more than a day? ...and printed the results?
I just stumbled on to this channel , thought they need less talk . I own and use an m monochrome , a great camera , i do everything black and white ,
Analogue and digital , fiber prints in the tray and epson ultrachrome ink jet prints .
These guys are so creepy.
David, you failed miserably with your extremely long, run-on sentence. Not capable of a one sentence answer.
Jesus Christ!!!! Can these guys take longer and make it even more complicated to explain what a monochrome sensor is????
Is not that complicated!
While the concept of a monochrome sensor might be obvious to some, we have an audience with a wide range of experience and understanding. Our goal is to try to provide information to as many as we can. We'd much rather bring everyone along than gloss over a concept or rush through it. Our approach might take longer, but we feel it's justified....and based on feedback we've received, it is appreciated by the majority of our viewers.
If you are in a hurry, these are not your guys