People living under Republic wanted change but I doubt they were prepared for totalitarian rule that wasn't afraid to use military force against them to keep them in line.
Revan tried to warn them that reform was needed. Instead they shrugged him off as a heretic and ordered him into silence. If only they had listen to him then, then the republic and The Jedi might never have fallen.
Of course the Jedi are corrupt to the Jedi teachings, most of them Atris's knowledge. They believed those who turned to the dark side are beyond saving. They turned so absolute to the sith. That the council could not think of their friendship with Count Dooku to see reason and truth. Only hating him of what he is now that clouded their judgement. Because they only thinking about killing darksiders at first sight.
I agree but we shouldnt act like it was Perfect.. There was a lot of stupid stuff, still better than Canon though. I Think at this point they should just pick certain parts of the EU and make them Canon again, instead of writing everything new
@@generalkenobi1972 I agree. Some of the new lore I enjoy, but it just feels I don't know how to word this, kiddy. I love a lot of E.U. events because it felt sometimes dark and visceral. It was more grown up in a sense. Not saying I don't like a more kid friendly star wars, but I just miss those old days I guess.
@@generalkenobi1972 True. And therefore it would have been nice to see a cleanup of the EU. But instead Disney chose to completely ban it from their canon and replace it with something that's even worse than the worst EU stories. Though I have to admit that not everything in the Disney Canon is bad. And if they take out the bad things from the EU and replace it the better parts of the Disney canon, it could have been great.
@@generalkenobi1972 The parts of the EU that were tacky were pretty much after the events of episode 6, the old republic era on the other hand had amazing material.
I disagree, the failure of the jedi earned them something as terrible the Empire. In their hubris and dogma they failed the galaxy and it was just that they got to see it ravaged as punishment....of course the rest of the galaxy didn't deserve it, but hey
This is why I view Qui-Gon as the best Jedi of his era, and perhaps the last true Jedi before their fall. He saw how the order had become stagnant and corrupt, and because of this he recognised that the Jedi were ill-prepared to deal with the rise of the Sith. He realised the Jedi had failed to follow the will of the force, and instead were following the will of the republic, in the interest of the “common good”, which only led them to their own destruction.
@@seamusogdonn-gaidhligarain2745 That's true he represents there are other Jedi that are acts like real ones. Over those who are self-serving, arrogant, ignorant, and careless like the council. They believed those who serve the will of the force were arrogant, reckless, and forsaken over themselves. That's why Sidious had Maul kill him so he can manipulate Anakin to his side. He feared Qui-Gon would lead Anakin to a better path of the Jedi. He wants him dead so Anakin be taught to the Masters who look down on him and be turned smoothly.
This is basically what Dooku was all about. He believed the Republic was rotten to the core, and the system entirely broken. Like other Jedi who fell, he probably originally believed he could use the Dark Side for good reasons (to bring about change).
I find it fitting that dooku would conclude this, then qui gon would come to realise the corruption, then anakin would learn this, and finally Obi Wan. From master to apprentice, each jedi was known for rebellion and free thinking in opposition to the council. They each learned the truth in their own way.
Hello There Star Wars Reading Club. This information is exactly what Qui Gon Jinn had realised for years and likely tried to help Obi Wan see it as well but to no avail. Both Obi Wan and Yoda could never understand how ignorant the Jedi Order had become over the years. Even Padmé never understood that the Republic was broken beyond repair and she let her own husband fight for a preposterously corrupt government that didn't even deserve his heroic loyalty and dedication. You could even say that Padmé failed Anakin in her own way and loved a broken system more that the young boy and soon to be man who loved her more than anything else in his life. I personally consider this information as Canon for myself in my head canon becuase it feels good to see that Obi Wan and possibly Yoda had realised that the republic was just as much of a failure as the Order they once followed. Thanks for the new video Star Wars Reading Club and remember. The Force will be with you. Always!
PhillipMargrave Anakin would've still dreamt though his fears for Padme run that deep.. Naboo was starting to change by AOTC there were more refugees there as the galaxy was unrested, were changes coming inexorably?
Sabretron2 she did say though to Anakin whether they were fighting on the wrong side, for a government that no longer exists..and Anakin seemed shocked..she had good intuition about things..
@@neilmurphy966 She did say that but she didn't realise it until it was too late. Even with a tremendous amount of evidence that the Republic was broken, she was still too deluded beyond belief and thought she could fix a system that just wasn't worth trying to fix any more. She encouraged Anakin to fight a war that he was at least from my point of view, was brainwashed to fight in. Just like he was brainwashed to follow the Jedi's extremist ways. Please tell me if I've missed anything. Thank you for your replies to my comment.
Man, what did we ever do to deserve a character like Obi-Wan? The Jedi Order may have gone to hell long before Order 66 but that man was a _true_ Jedi if ever there was.
This part of Star Wars Legends lore has always been some of my favourite. From the New Sith Wars, to the Ruusan Reformations, through to the Prequels, there is just so much that the Jedi did to become too much the servants of the Republic instead of the Force, which of course was used perfectly by the Sith.
They had a Symbotic relationship and the Sith knew it, So they slowly corrupted the Republic within. So by corrupting Republic thru dark side(greed and arrogance), it will effect the Jedi. So a Corrupted Republic kept the Jedi Busy and distracted; so the Sith can take over with ease.
@@kelman727 That's not true. If you heard about the old republic. The Jedi relay on the wills of the force to command them and guide them to be Jedi. Even the council who followed the Exile's companions footsteps, ensure mistakes won't be repeated. Those who serve the republic are those that lost their way and had been fighting for the dark side. Even in the prequels and Clone Wars Yoda was the most ignorant of them all. He couldn't believe the sith had return, had Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon as witnesses to the Naboo blockade, looking down on Anakin over helping him, not believing Dooku's truth about a conspiracy that Sidious control the senate, not seeing how the clone wars affected his jedi, cover up Dooku created the clone army, relaying trust on Sidious, not helping the galaxy, not investigating the inhibitor chips, and seeing through the trap for the jedi. The Jedi would be in their prime actually if they remained independent, not turn like siths.
I don't think that the Jedi deserve to fall because of their service as peace keepers of the Republic perse. I think they deserved to fall because they failed to understand the nuances of politics and political intrigue.
There’s always a battle between good and evil. Unfortunately big government is the result of evil winning the battle. There's always bad people waiting to play on people’s ignorance to gain control. Good people don't want power and control so most don't think about it. So you end up with most people relinquishing it to people who want it and you get big government.
There's two kinds of "Deserve." There's karma, which says "you've done such, and such should happen to you." The other is consequence, which says "You've done such, in such circumstances, and as a natural result, this result will happen to you." The Jedi failed to confront the shortcomings of the Republic as it became more corrupt, and as a result, many across the galaxy turned against the republic and were willing to accept the Jedi's destruction as the empire rose.
The Jedi had to fall. Because they lost their way when they thought the sith was gone, that they turned just like their predecessors from KOTOR. Worse they stop being protectors to the galaxy. Only peacemakers to the republic. The Hero of Tython told Kira Carsen that "it's good that the jedi stay away from politics, we can't let it compromise our ideas." Sadly unbeknownst to him they would get involved with politics, and he was right when they stop serving the will of the force to relay on politics they turned ignorant, corrupt, arrogant, holding their students back from reaching their full potential, and lost their connection to the light side of the force. They couldn't see the republic was dead for a long time. The senate was now under control of those who serve the sith.
I don't think so. Most people propably never met a Jedi and just heard of them as rumors. So it's valid to conculude that most people just didn't care if the Order existed or not. This would explain why neither Admiral Motti, nor Han Solo actually believed in the story of the mysterious Force. It was just a myth, like the Order itself.
@@oliverfranke7650 No that's just inconsistent writing. During the clone wars obi wan and anakin were the 2 most famous guys in the galaxy. Han solo, who lived on corellia (one of the core worlds so the holonet obviously showed every news of the clone wars) should have 100% heard about at least these two jedi and gain at least a rudimentary understanding of what jedi are capable of.
@@ukriylonen7224 What is inconsitent about this? Do you know every war hero? Do you know about every organisation out there? I bet you don't know much about the Chinese COmmunist Party, except that they are ruling China and that Trump doesn't like them. The popualtion on Coruscant alone is more than one trillion people. Do you really think everybody knows Anakin and Obi-Wan? That's hard to believe. They maybe know to the upper class, maybe even to some hillbilly living on a desert planet, but it's not sane to assume that they were know a 100 % by everyone in the galaxy. Especially since many planets don't care ofr the war, are not withing the Republic or simply don't see much of the Republics propaganda.
@@oliverfranke7650 Didn't say everyone but definetly a huge amount of people living in the core worlds. And it is frequently implied in multiple clone wars books just how well known these two were via the holonet. So yes Han Solo living in corellia has no chance of not hearing about these two. And what I also find very odd is that chewie knew yoda and obi wan and fought beside yoda and the clones on kashyyyk. And somehow didn't even once mention about that to han
Obi Wan admitted that the Republic had infighting and confusion as far back as Ansion, before start of the Clone Wars. If you're a democracy you try be diplomatic and get both sides to agree or compromise,..maybe if there had been 100,000 Jedi knights in wider galaxy they could've ended slavery and stopped so many injustices.. was it the Will of the Force that there were insufficient force sensitives being found? Maybe..
I been thought that ,the jedi should have left the republic go get there own planet ,with force users and a few none force users. And use what ever credits they had to build some ships to protect themselves and there planet. Stay out of the war but still deal in peace and similar matters. The jedi should have sent a few jedi to all neutral systems and then those systems would provide credit or ships and whatever materials they need. So the jedi and neutral systems would have some sorts of protection from both side especially separatists from just taking the planet with ease.
Qui Gon Jinn realized this even before the clone wars. He's the only Jedi that embodied what the Jedi should have been and was the only one who could have feeled out Sidious not through just the Force which was distorted, but through reliance of his instincts.
Most likely. Qui-Gon rejected what the Order had become under the rule of the Republic. Dooku even hinted, that Qui-Gon might have agreed on the overall goal of the Seperatist Alliance, which was not making an Emprie out of the Republic, but to end corruption and selfishness within the senate and the government. In fact one could argue, that Dooku merely allied with Palpatine to achieve his goal, but was ultimately betrayed py Palpatine who always intended to use the weakened Republic to establish a new Sith rule.
@@oliverfranke7650 Yea I had always figured that Dooku was acting as his own double agent. I think he had always meant to take out Palpatine when he revealed himself to be the Sith Lord behind the war. Why else would he even tell Obi-Wan the whole truth about what was going on in the Senate?
@@99thJediWarrior Well, it's the Sith way to surpass their masters anyway. Maybe this helped. But basically, yeah. I agree. It makes no sense for him to tell Obi-Wan about Sidious and his plans, if his masterplan didn't involve to overthrow Palpatine after the war was over. And I think that Dooku planned to get Obi-Wan on his side, because in his, and my, opinion Obi-Wan was more powerful than Anakin. Of course Anakin was more strong in the force, but he lacked the wisdom to use it.
His existence alone threatened the entire sith grand plan. If he survived and trained Anakin along with Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan and frequently by Dooku, Anakin would've accomplished what he said about becoming the most powerful jedi.
@David Carty That's neither crazy nor a joke, it's simply a fact. Anakin maybe more attuned to the Force than Obi-Wan, but he lacked the wisdom or capability to make use of that advantage. He was shortsichted, arrogant, foolish, overconfident and he lacked any wisdom. That's why he could never overcome his master, that's why he fell to the dark side and that's why in 25 years he was never able to get rid of Palpatine. Power is not a matter of Force attunement, but a matter of several factors. Being good with the Force doesn't make you powerful. Obi-Wan understood that principle. That's why he warned Anakin not to try attacking him and that's why Obo-Wan knew it would be more useful to be defeated on the Death Star. That's what true ower is. Not som "Oh I rule the galaxy" or "I am the chosen one" bullshit. Anakin is a natural born loser.
It feels like both the Jedi and republic became corrupt and under each others control the the Jedi became mere servants of the republic but they had what seemed to be huge political influence in the republic
The Jedi should never have fought the Republic's battles, nor served the Republic. They should have been serving the will of the Force. By becoming tools of the Republic, the Jedi weakened themselves and limited themselves too much.
The Jedi should have realized that fighting a war for a political entity with an army of slaves was ethically and morally wrong for a group of warrior priests that were dedicated to peacekeeping role.
Not everyone had realized this too late, Qui-Gon saw this in the very early stages of the Clone Wars before it even began, but his views were alas discarded by the rest of the Jedi Order. Had there been more Jedi like this, then the damage would of been greatly reduced, they should of done both, in my opinion maintain peace while listening to the will of the force, or at least tried to make more with less.
But if they did see it, what could they really do about it? Fighting the war gives the same result as seen in order 66 but not fighting it could label the Jedi as cowards and traitors to the galaxy. They were screwed either way.
PhillipMargrave I think obi wan went to stop Anakin too because he had killed younglings, in a way it was a police action to stop a murderer..and someone who could well harm many others.. he was standing up for justice like the Jedi were originally and essentially supposed to do.
The Republic like all old empires died from within as its moral core, the adherence to the founding principles that had made it the greatest civilization in a galaxy far, far away had long since rotted away. Thus it became like an old, dying tree needing only one strong wind to come crashing down. It's nice to see that Obi-Wan recognized that fact at least in Legends as his thoughts on it in the new canon are yet to be seen.
There's one issue with Obi Wan realising this - he doesn't stop Legends Luke from doing the exact same thing in terms of involving himself and his New Order in the politics of the New Republic. Yes Luke doesn't get as involved as the old Order was, but it's a slippery slope he stands on, and for some reason Obi Wan doesn't say anything about this.
Obi-wan became Qui-gon. In the beginning Qui-gon questioned the jedi counsel and their choices, including the assitance they gave to the republic. He viewed the choice as an affront on the ways of the jedi which was to study and learn from the force as a whole rather than a split ideal and a tool to be used by a higher office that is only deemed higher due to the jedi's blindness in thinking that the galaxy and the republic required their prescence at all times which led to dissent and questionable actions, which may have even been ordered by the republic and sanctioned, leading to the jedi being seen as political puppets rahter than the researchers and peace keepers they were founded to be. Obi-wan was too late and Qui-gon was too early, the best time for their realizations would have been when anakin was, with regret and reluctance, made a knight and given a greater sence of pride and a deeper connection to both the chancellor and the dark side for then they would have seen that anakin was testimony to the close connection which would destroy the jedi. Sorry for rant here is potato🥔
The more I look into Star Wars lore, the more it becomes clear that the Jedi Order was never meant to function. In Revan's/the Exile's time, the Jedi were passive to the point of indifference to the threats in the galaxy, until the Sith were practically on their throats. Pre-Russan, this mentality drove some Jedi to fight the Sith on their own terms, becoming Jedi Lords and taking the reigns of power just to stem the tide of darkness. After the Russan Reformation, the Jedi were determined to become nothing but tools of the Republic, and practically shun any form of growth. They chose to become reactionaries instead of trying to bring light and relief to the darkest parts of the galaxy. In a sense, they failed the Light side of the Force that they proclaimed to champion.
When I see "Legends"...It makes me sad. I Love Star Wars Legends....You know how many books I've read? Disney, RoundHead Johnson etc, will not ruin Star Wars for me.
He finally understood the true purpose of the chosen one. Anakin was never born to lead the light towards victory. But rather he was born to destroy both sides. Before he destroys the enemies outside, he must destroy those within. While the Sith view the Force as a tool, the Jedi abused its powers for their own sake. Obi-Wan chooses to stay hidden because he is responsible for training the future bearer of a new light. Vader destroyed the fallen light as well as the lurking darkness, thus bringing balance. Luke was born with one job. To heal the force once his father closes the rift that is caused by Plagueis and Sidious via the Grand Experiment involving midi-chlorian manipulation.
Obi-Wan is extremely smart to see this. He was truly wise. The fall started generations ago. The rest was too easy for the Sith. And for others who wanted all system gone and replaced by a new one. Obi-Wan saw everything perfectly clear And took him just days after formation of the Galactic Empire and fall of the Jedi. What others didnt see in years,like Yoda,he saw it in days
The Republic deserved to fall long before the Clone Wars. Between corruption (always a problem), constant wars (also a big problem), war crimes in said wars (attempted genocide of the Sith species is a big one), it’s nothing short of a miracle the Republic lasted as long as it did.
"Look, everybody always figures the time they live in is the most epic, most important age to end all ages. But tyrants and heroes rise and fall, and historians sort out the pieces. [...] Malak is a tyrant who should be stopped. If he conquers the galaxy we're in for a couple of rough centuries. Eventually it'll come around again, but I'd rather not wait that long." -Jolee Bindo, one of the first Gray Jedi
It must have really haunted obi wan knowing that he crippled his best friend and left him to die to protect the government then realizing that his best friend was right in the first place that it deserved to fall years later
Dude, your insights are getting better and better. I would also add, Palpatine started a war (economic and political at first) whose true purpose was to destroy the Jedi.
Well, it was to *make* the Republic corrupt and ...not standing up to, say, moneyed interests. Naboo was the first big move there, in the films, 'I will *make* it legal,' etc.
Makes you wonder if the Jedi has remained seperate and just acted to help people and the galaxy to work towards peace regardless of whether that meant working against the Republic or for it.
I would've loved it if the prequels explored more of these politics. The movies always portrayed separatists = evil and republic = good, but it was obvious that the republic has its own corruption going on, and the line between good and evil is not so obvious.
The Jedi were peacekeepers in ancient times! They could act as mediators and advisors to the Senate but they should not have gotten too involved with the Republic as a whole. From all the novels, games, comics, etc, you can see how over the centuries they became more and more intertwined with politics and government. They had lost their way.
Fact is that the Siith also merely use the Force and do not care at ALL for the Will of the Force. They seek to dominate and use it for their own purposes. That group of Jedi nearly killed Vader and were it not for the intervention of many Stormtroopers he have been killed. Really sickmof the lack of balance here, inferring that the Sith had things right. They didn't and don't. They only used politics and the Force. The Jedi never liked Politics. By th same logic the Military and police should not fight for what the law givers say, and instead rebel as the Sepratists did. Which is fine. BUT the one at the top, the corrupt politician is a Sith, and ONLY from that point of view does Obi-wan mean what he concluded. Because the Sith are corrupt and politics the leaders of the Republic weren't worth fighting for. NOT the people who are the Republic. And whatever th Jedi were th With were worse. Proof you need? If the Sith were right, their would be no Rebellion against the Empire. Star Wars logic... LOL Idiotic circular reasoning just to justify some REALLY poor plots and ineptitude, and rinse and repeat so we can still take the Sith seriously and somehow believe the Jedi were fools. One doesn't need the Force to see no one is that stupid, not even the Jedi. Also just stop saying th With understood more. They would come and kill your family were they real, for your even speaking a single word against them or not doing as they insisted.
The Jedi were the guardians of peace and Justice for over 1000 generations in the republic. They were not to be generals leading clone troops on the battlefield.
Mace Windu probably played a huge role in keeping the last generation of the Jedi Order not merely loyal to the Republic but reverent to it. It was, after all, Mace's secret attachment... Poor Mace 😥 xx
@@RicardoPerez-rz8pu No quite the opposite. He actively loved the Republic which is why he took the war so personally. Shatterpoint and Revenge of the Sith are great novels that explore this 😊 xx
In the videogame Knights of the Old Republic there happens to be a war in which the Republic fights and the Jedi, contrary to the Clone Wars, staid behind and didn't help, causing a schism in the Order from jedi who did want to fight and leading to another war called "the Jedi Civil War". So in that case it's ok to serve the Republic and in the Clone Wars it isn't? They jedi who staid behind are painted as selfish and self-centered, not understanding the people outside their academy. Also, Luke and his friends fought tooth and nail against the Empire to restore the Jedi and the democratic Republic that oh so "deserved to die", are we saying it was all just a mistake and Luke should've just adopted a hermit life with Ben in Tatooine?
Very old comment I know but you raise some interesting points so I figured I'd respond. I THINK the difference is in how it's done. The old Jedi should have fought, but because it would help and protect people from an aggressive and destructive force. The clone wars however was about governmental control..the Jedi should have been looking at the cause of the war (corruption in the senate) rather than blindly fighting for the republic. I still think they should have fought the cis, the seps did some nasty things, but they never addressed the heart of the war and were defeated. Luke's order does just this during the Vong war while working to keep the republic from going too far...then turns around during the second civil war and sets up the Jedi coalition to root out the heart of the war and brings it to and end with reuniting the waring factions. The Jedi serve the force and the people...not the government. I think that's the difference. That's what's meant by balance.
Neither Obiwan nor Yoda own the fact that their hubris was as much at fault as Anikkans arrogance when it comes to order 66 Sidious gave them every opportunity to earn back Anikans loyalty instead they pushed her further and further into the darkside
Ob1 was being as short sighted as his Masters. The Sith knew that the republic was the Pearl of the Universe and it Domination would be Key to dominating every square millimeter of existence. Its true the Jedi were tools of the republic when they should have been not only the Hand of the Empi...republic it should have existed as the head. The Tennant's of the jedi are unobtainable if there is No Peace by what ever means. The Republic was 1st and last Bastion of civilization containing both the Good and Bad elements a mortal existence and the jedi should have taken advantage to guide all souls to the Light.
Poor obi, too blind to see the faults of the order, too loyal to even think about dookus hint of palpatine is sidious, he must have been in a confused and angered state for some time. Thus make him like in this video glad that the republic fell
Maybe the Jedi who attacked Darth Vader realized the horror, murder and iniquity Vader and the Emperor would inflict on the Galaxy. Yoda allowed Sidious to commit his manifold crimes on the Galaxy
Kael Griffis Not if the Sith had already hijacked the Republic a millennia ago, which they did. By TPM the Republic is a fraud, a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
I have many, many gripes and complaints about the Rey trilogy, but if there's one thing about these films that I absolutely love, it's that Luke saw and understood what brought about the fall of the Republic and the Jedi. More than that, he had Yoda himself come back and tell him he was correct: BALANCE between the light and the dark was key.
Ironically the Republic, as it was originally designed, WAS worth fighting for. I find it interesting that most people (like Obi-wan) cane to the conclusion that the Republic was not worth fighting for because of corruption, etc. yet it was the Sith that stoked the corruption and fanned the flames of that corruption. I always had hoped that they would have turned the Darth Plegeus novel into a movie. It was interesting to see his wisdom and Palpitine’s growth. In fact, it surprised me that they didn’t make a movie about Palpitine and Vader and the Empire from their point of view ( in between episode 3 & Rogue One)
That's the logical fallacy of the entire story of Star Wars; if Palpatine hadn't been manipulating events from the shadows, the Republic would never have fallen, and neither would the Jedi. The whole thing is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It had nothing to do with Fate, or the will of the force; it was all just one guy scheming in the shadows. As for the Empire movie; I don't think they could have made that work, as it would require the story to be told from the "Viliian's" perspective, and that would have caused all kinds of controversy.
GamerX51 as for the “villains” story: I think a story like in Battlefront 2/inferno squad would have been interesting as a movie. I think that’s what I meant. Villains turning good & other villains chasing them. As for the Republic: you’re right about everything you said. Interestingly, the Jedi did step into a trap of their own making. By deciding to serve the light side of the Force THRU the Republic (and senate), it ended up destroying their abilities in the force. The Jedi served the Republic which was controlled by the Dark Lord of the Sith, so in the end the Good Jedi were serving the Bad Sith. It’s not surprising that their abilities started to get “fogged up”. It was a no win scenario. From an evil, Machiavellian way, it was a brilliant plan by Darth Plageus & Sideous
@@pduidesign I feel that the conflation of Light/Dark with Good/Bad is an even bigger problem. "Good" Jedi committed some horrifying crimes, and the "Bad" Sith, in the form of the Emperor and the Empire would have saved trillions of lives from the repeated extra-Galactic invasions that occurred in the EU. When your point of view is sufficiently large, "Good" and "Bad" become merely labels for sides, not meaningful value judgements
Tell me, which's what should sound right towards certain forts of somebodies that who raised in a profession that suppose to come with a conscious… is it "Didn't realize there was something supremely messed up with the Galactic Republic when the Senate sent the Clones/Child soldiers into combat!" or "Suppose to smell there was something supremely rotting in the state of The Galactic Republic when the Senate sent the Clones/Child soldiers into combat!"?
Imagine if Obi Wan had reached this realization when he met Dooku and was offered a part to play. I wonder how Dooku and Obi Wan might have changed the Republic?
Had Darth Sidious been a little more patient and waited to kill Darth Plagues. It would have changed the out come. Anikan would had better training and both Darth Masters would have taken on Obi wan and Yoda
Obi-Wan doesn't need to be on the high ground, the high ground just needs to exist within the battle; Obi-Wan knows that when he has the low ground, he really has the high ground, from a certain point of view; Look at his battle record: Maul: Has low ground, wins Dooku: No high ground, loses Dooku rematch: No high ground, loses Grevious: Has low ground, wins Vader: Has high ground, wins Vader rematch: No high ground, loses Obi-Wan with the high/low ground is canonically the most powerful Jedi. This is fact. Had Yoda not denied his request to battle The Senate with typical Jedi arrogance, Obi-Wan could have defeated Palpatine in the Senate building, which housed a variety of different altitudes; this was designed so that the Chancellor could always have the moral high ground in political debates. But Obi-wan didn't fight The Senate, and Yoda soon learned that you can't cleave the Sheev in a normal 1v1. Yoda is shorter than virtually every other fighter, which gives him a permanent low-ground disadvantage; however, his saber-fighting style utilizes a flipping-heavy technique in order to negate this weakness for a temporary window. You'll notice that, as he falls from the central podium in The Senate's building, he immediately retreats, knowing that he can never hold the high ground in this duel. You'll also notice that, while training Luke, he rides on him like a mount, to gain the intellectual high ground and accelerate Luke's training. Obi-Wan's defensive Form III lightsaber style synergizes with his careful military maneuvers; as he only strikes when prepared, he can always hold the strategic high ground. You'll come to realize that Commander Cody's artillery strike failed against Obi-Wan, when hundreds of Jedi were killed in similar attacks. Cody failed to grasp the strategic situation, as the Jedi Master's elevation was superior to his by hundreds of meters, making him virtually unkillable. Had Cody taken his time and engaged the Jedi on even terrain, he could have possibly succeeded. Obi-Wan then retreated under the surface of the lake, so that he could maintain the topographical low/high ground. In RotS, you'll notice that all the Jedi killed were on level ground with the clones, thereby assuring their demise. As we all know, spinning is a good trick. However, only the Chosen one can spin outside of a starfighter. Palpatine tried spinning, but he lost due to this technique (but this was intentional, as losing gave him the emotional high ground when Anakin arrived). The reason for this is that spinning provides a yin-yang approach to combat (based in Eastern philosophy on balance), giving the spinner the high ground from above and below. Only the Chosen One can master the spin, as it is their destiny to maintain balance in the universe. This is why Obi-Wan was so emotional after defeating Vader on Mustafar; he expected to lose the high ground to the spin, but Anakin fell to the dark side and could no longer use his signature trick, becoming the very thing he swore to destroy. Anakin doesn't hate sand for the reasons he told Padme; all Jedi hate sand, as the battlefield can rapidly change between low and high ground on multiple vectors, so your perspective must be from a certain three-dimensional point of view in order to comprehend who holds the high ground. This is the only reason why Obi-Wan killed Maul in Rebels. This is also why Obi-Wan hates flying; there is no gravity in space, therefore there is no high or low ground from any frame of reference (This also negates the spinning trick). It took the Tusken Raiders years of conflict against Old Ben Kenobi to grasp his superiority in terrain advantage, as you see them visibly flee in ANH when they realize he holds the low (inverse-high) ground. Additionally, Obi-Wan's victory in the cantina against the drunkard was assured, as he held the temperamental high ground, his actions more calculated and well-thought than the alcoholic, who was so uncivilized. In ANH, Vader proves his newfound mastery by engaging Obi on perfectly even ground. However, Obi-Wan intentionally sacrifices himself on the Death Star, so that he could train Luke from a higher plane of existence, thereby giving him the metaphysical high ground. Why was Vader so invested in the construction and maintenance of the Death Star? Because he knows Obi-wan can't have the high ground if there's no ground left. As seen through the events of the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan was known to be on friendly terms with Senator Organa, whose homeworld held large quantities of mountainous terrain, the perfect habitat for a Jedi Master. Grand Moff Tarkin was already in position to destroy Alderaan as a first target, as the distance from Scarif to Alderaan was too vast to reach between the escape and recapture of the Tantive IV, even at 1.0 lightspeed. Alderaan had been the initial target all along, as Obi-Wan with the high ground was the primary threat to the Death Star. How? Because a moon-sized space station would have some form of gravitational pull, thereby negating Obi-Wan's zero-gravity weakness; Obi-Wan with the perpetual high-ground in a low-orbit starfighter would easily be able to fire proton torpedoes through a ventilation shaft, although the Empire was uncertain of the specific weakness of the Death Star planned by Galen Erso (who was a good friend). In Return of the Jedi, you can see that the Throne Room contains a variety of different altitudes; Palpatine placed these there to ensure Vader's defeat. However, Sheev failed to realize that his weakness was no ground, and should have covered that useless gaping pit which does nothing. A common misconception is the idea of a 'prostrate position' version of the high ground, wherein Obi-Wan lies flat on his back, giving him tactical superiority from his point of view. However, this strategy is futile, as for the high ground to come into effect, there must be a differential between parties on both the x-axis and y-axis to a moderately significant variation from both absolutes (Angles only a Sith would deal in.). For Obi-Wan's high ground powers to have full effect, he must stand between 15 and 75 degrees (π/12 to 5π/12 radians) diagonal from his opponent(s) on any quadrant of the trigonometric circle. In conclusion, Obi-wan abuses spatial relativity and Taoist doctrine in order to always invoke his high-ground powers. Edit: FYI, this is a copypasta i found on r/prequelmemes.
People living under Republic wanted change but I doubt they were prepared for totalitarian rule that wasn't afraid to use military force against them to keep them in line.
You do realize the previous system used military force to keep everyone in line? The Jedi are high ranking generals...
Not entirely, taking that the Republic had more or less no central navy until the Clone Wars.
Republics decline into democracies and democracies degenerate into despotisms.
-Aristotle
@@superitgel1 you talking about the old republic?
@@superitgel1 yuo*
He realized Count Duku wasn't lieing to him...too little too late.
(lying)
-but I agree.
@@carloscollazoii spelling
"The Republic will fall, as it always has. A fall that will take millenia."
Kreia, Star Wars - Knights of The Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Very true. Kreia's vision was right about it. The Fall of the Galactic Republic became true. The Ruusan Reformation is nothing more but a farce.
Was thinking the same thing as I watched this video. KOTOR 2 is my favorite SW story.
A great pair of games SWTOR a shame we Never got a third.
Revan tried to warn them that reform was needed. Instead they shrugged him off as a heretic and ordered him into silence. If only they had listen to him then, then the republic and The Jedi might never have fallen.
@@thunderstudent Revan was ahead of his time
When obiwan was on tatooine, he probably sat and reflected to the part where dooku told him the plan to his face and felt like a real asshole
Of course the Jedi are corrupt to the Jedi teachings, most of them Atris's knowledge. They believed those who turned to the dark side are beyond saving. They turned so absolute to the sith. That the council could not think of their friendship with Count Dooku to see reason and truth. Only hating him of what he is now that clouded their judgement. Because they only thinking about killing darksiders at first sight.
I miss old E.U. star wars. Was much more gritty and grounded
I agree but we shouldnt act like it was Perfect.. There was a lot of stupid stuff, still better than Canon though. I Think at this point they should just pick certain parts of the EU and make them Canon again, instead of writing everything new
@@generalkenobi1972 I agree. Some of the new lore I enjoy, but it just feels I don't know how to word this, kiddy. I love a lot of E.U. events because it felt sometimes dark and visceral. It was more grown up in a sense. Not saying I don't like a more kid friendly star wars, but I just miss those old days I guess.
@@generalkenobi1972 True. And therefore it would have been nice to see a cleanup of the EU. But instead Disney chose to completely ban it from their canon and replace it with something that's even worse than the worst EU stories. Though I have to admit that not everything in the Disney Canon is bad. And if they take out the bad things from the EU and replace it the better parts of the Disney canon, it could have been great.
So do I. *Sigh*
@@generalkenobi1972 The parts of the EU that were tacky were pretty much after the events of episode 6, the old republic era on the other hand had amazing material.
Obi wan during Mustafar: "My allegiance is to the Republic to democracy"
*Post Mustafar* : "yeah I uh did not think that one through"
To quote Uncle Iroh: You never think these things through Kenobi!
@@MMZERO9 qui gon and iroh would get along
john lawful Oh, there’s no question. Plus even Iroh would call the Jedi Order out on trying to teach their students to purge emotions.
I was thinking of that exact same line after watching this video.
MMZERO9 Iroh would not even to spare them being called out for the practices of taking babies to being controlling
Obi-Wan saw the downfall of the Republic from the high ground
Deserved yes? *Refrom onto a galactic Empire?* No.. no... No...
I disagree, the failure of the jedi earned them something as terrible the Empire. In their hubris and dogma they failed the galaxy and it was just that they got to see it ravaged as punishment....of course the rest of the galaxy didn't deserve it, but hey
@J P lol pirates and criminals flourished under the empire.
@@biohita typical imperialist propaganda smh(!) :P
@J P Wasn't the Empire xenophobic?
@Trey Stephens whats wrong with the empire? 3 words they support slavery! lol!
The Jedi should have become independent of the Republic. Only then would they have seen what was going on in the galaxy from an unbiased view.
Then they would saw their own errors & short-comings from a high ground point of view.
@@TheGoldenWildcat the Jedi would have the high ground; from a certain point of view.
@@Thicc_Cheese_Dip Good point!
This is why I view Qui-Gon as the best Jedi of his era, and perhaps the last true Jedi before their fall. He saw how the order had become stagnant and corrupt, and because of this he recognised that the Jedi were ill-prepared to deal with the rise of the Sith. He realised the Jedi had failed to follow the will of the force, and instead were following the will of the republic, in the interest of the “common good”, which only led them to their own destruction.
@@seamusogdonn-gaidhligarain2745 That's true he represents there are other Jedi that are acts like real ones. Over those who are self-serving, arrogant, ignorant, and careless like the council. They believed those who serve the will of the force were arrogant, reckless, and forsaken over themselves. That's why Sidious had Maul kill him so he can manipulate Anakin to his side. He feared Qui-Gon would lead Anakin to a better path of the Jedi. He wants him dead so Anakin be taught to the Masters who look down on him and be turned smoothly.
Definitely excited for the obi wan show
Hello there
General Kenobi don’t you mean the high ground/hello there show?
Careful don’t get your hopes up it has a good trailer BUT Disney can ruin everything....way to quickly it can ruin everything
@@penypappas2988 there's a trailer??
There is a obi wan trailer and mandalorian trailer
This is basically what Dooku was all about. He believed the Republic was rotten to the core, and the system entirely broken. Like other Jedi who fell, he probably originally believed he could use the Dark Side for good reasons (to bring about change).
I've started to love that music at the beginning because I know I'm about to watch a swrc video
yup, shame disney wrecked his growth potential..starwars theory and tsw aren't even close to his level...its crazy.
You know chief
UFCKO’s SWT used to be better then it is now and SWRC quality has been extremely consistent
Eternal Emperor Valkorion it was better .. but not much.. its just theres no new sw content...cuz disney is ASS,
I find it fitting that dooku would conclude this, then qui gon would come to realise the corruption, then anakin would learn this, and finally Obi Wan. From master to apprentice, each jedi was known for rebellion and free thinking in opposition to the council. They each learned the truth in their own way.
I feel like the intro gets louder each video xD
*3 years later*
[warning headphone users] in the title
UNLIMITED.... POWAAAAAAAAAAH!
👉🏻⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡
Hello There Star Wars Reading Club.
This information is exactly what Qui Gon Jinn had realised for years and likely tried to help Obi Wan see it as well but to no avail. Both Obi Wan and Yoda could never understand how ignorant the Jedi Order had become over the years. Even Padmé never understood that the Republic was broken beyond repair and she let her own husband fight for a preposterously corrupt government that didn't even deserve his heroic loyalty and dedication. You could even say that Padmé failed Anakin in her own way and loved a broken system more that the young boy and soon to be man who loved her more than anything else in his life. I personally consider this information as Canon for myself in my head canon becuase it feels good to see that Obi Wan and possibly Yoda had realised that the republic was just as much of a failure as the Order they once followed.
Thanks for the new video Star Wars Reading Club and remember.
The Force will be with you. Always!
PhillipMargrave Anakin would've still dreamt though his fears for Padme run that deep.. Naboo was starting to change by AOTC there were more refugees there as the galaxy was unrested, were changes coming inexorably?
Sabretron2 she did say though to Anakin whether they were fighting on the wrong side, for a government that no longer exists..and Anakin seemed shocked..she had good intuition about things..
@@neilmurphy966 She did say that but she didn't realise it until it was too late. Even with a tremendous amount of evidence that the Republic was broken, she was still too deluded beyond belief and thought she could fix a system that just wasn't worth trying to fix any more. She encouraged Anakin to fight a war that he was at least from my point of view, was brainwashed to fight in. Just like he was brainwashed to follow the Jedi's extremist ways.
Please tell me if I've missed anything. Thank you for your replies to my comment.
Man, what did we ever do to deserve a character like Obi-Wan? The Jedi Order may have gone to hell long before Order 66 but that man was a _true_ Jedi if ever there was.
I still strikes me as strange that the Jedi allowed themselves to become servants of a corrupt Republic
This part of Star Wars Legends lore has always been some of my favourite. From the New Sith Wars, to the Ruusan Reformations, through to the Prequels, there is just so much that the Jedi did to become too much the servants of the Republic instead of the Force, which of course was used perfectly by the Sith.
They had a Symbotic relationship and the Sith knew it, So they slowly corrupted the Republic within. So by corrupting Republic thru dark side(greed and arrogance), it will effect the Jedi. So a Corrupted Republic kept the Jedi Busy and distracted; so the Sith can take over with ease.
It wasn't corrupt when they signed onto the ideals of it, ...if anything it erred on the side of too little management and very likely common defense.
Daryl Franklin, Jr.
On the contrary; the Jedi refused to put themselves above the Republic, for that would lead them to become just like the Sith.
@@kelman727 That's not true. If you heard about the old republic. The Jedi relay on the wills of the force to command them and guide them to be Jedi. Even the council who followed the Exile's companions footsteps, ensure mistakes won't be repeated. Those who serve the republic are those that lost their way and had been fighting for the dark side. Even in the prequels and Clone Wars Yoda was the most ignorant of them all. He couldn't believe the sith had return, had Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon as witnesses to the Naboo blockade, looking down on Anakin over helping him, not believing Dooku's truth about a conspiracy that Sidious control the senate, not seeing how the clone wars affected his jedi, cover up Dooku created the clone army, relaying trust on Sidious, not helping the galaxy, not investigating the inhibitor chips, and seeing through the trap for the jedi. The Jedi would be in their prime actually if they remained independent, not turn like siths.
Man that painting of the Bane fight is so amazing. There’s only one I like more.
_changes to Sidious training under Plagueis_
...And there it is!
I don't think that the Jedi deserve to fall because of their service as peace keepers of the Republic perse. I think they deserved to fall because they failed to understand the nuances of politics and political intrigue.
There’s always a battle between good and evil. Unfortunately big government is the result of evil winning the battle. There's always bad people waiting to play on people’s ignorance to gain control. Good people don't want power and control so most don't think about it. So you end up with most people relinquishing it to people who want it and you get big government.
There's two kinds of "Deserve." There's karma, which says "you've done such, and such should happen to you." The other is consequence, which says "You've done such, in such circumstances, and as a natural result, this result will happen to you." The Jedi failed to confront the shortcomings of the Republic as it became more corrupt, and as a result, many across the galaxy turned against the republic and were willing to accept the Jedi's destruction as the empire rose.
The Jedi had to fall. Because they lost their way when they thought the sith was gone, that they turned just like their predecessors from KOTOR. Worse they stop being protectors to the galaxy. Only peacemakers to the republic. The Hero of Tython told Kira Carsen that "it's good that the jedi stay away from politics, we can't let it compromise our ideas." Sadly unbeknownst to him they would get involved with politics, and he was right when they stop serving the will of the force to relay on politics they turned ignorant, corrupt, arrogant, holding their students back from reaching their full potential, and lost their connection to the light side of the force. They couldn't see the republic was dead for a long time. The senate was now under control of those who serve the sith.
The Republic have lost their way.
this is why I don't easily help people, they will bring us down with them
Evan Tazeris that just ain’t right
Jedi realised that nobody wanted them around to begin with and nobody was going to miss them. And that was the true Revenge of the Sith.
I don't think so. Most people propably never met a Jedi and just heard of them as rumors. So it's valid to conculude that most people just didn't care if the Order existed or not. This would explain why neither Admiral Motti, nor Han Solo actually believed in the story of the mysterious Force. It was just a myth, like the Order itself.
@@oliverfranke7650 Seeing how big the Star Wars universe and how there still a lot of unexplored galaxy this might actually be the case.
@@oliverfranke7650 No that's just inconsistent writing. During the clone wars obi wan and anakin were the 2 most famous guys in the galaxy. Han solo, who lived on corellia (one of the core worlds so the holonet obviously showed every news of the clone wars) should have 100% heard about at least these two jedi and gain at least a rudimentary understanding of what jedi are capable of.
@@ukriylonen7224 What is inconsitent about this? Do you know every war hero? Do you know about every organisation out there? I bet you don't know much about the Chinese COmmunist Party, except that they are ruling China and that Trump doesn't like them. The popualtion on Coruscant alone is more than one trillion people. Do you really think everybody knows Anakin and Obi-Wan? That's hard to believe. They maybe know to the upper class, maybe even to some hillbilly living on a desert planet, but it's not sane to assume that they were know a 100 % by everyone in the galaxy. Especially since many planets don't care ofr the war, are not withing the Republic or simply don't see much of the Republics propaganda.
@@oliverfranke7650 Didn't say everyone but definetly a huge amount of people living in the core worlds. And it is frequently implied in multiple clone wars books just how well known these two were via the holonet. So yes Han Solo living in corellia has no chance of not hearing about these two. And what I also find very odd is that chewie knew yoda and obi wan and fought beside yoda and the clones on kashyyyk. And somehow didn't even once mention about that to han
Just rework the Empire a bit and we have the best order to rule the galaxy... just ask the great hero Grand Admiral Thrawn.
Obi Wan admitted that the Republic had infighting and confusion as far back as Ansion, before start of the Clone Wars. If you're a democracy you try be diplomatic and get both sides to agree or compromise,..maybe if there had been 100,000 Jedi knights in wider galaxy they could've ended slavery and stopped so many injustices.. was it the Will of the Force that there were insufficient force sensitives being found? Maybe..
If Qui-gon jinn were alive then he would’ve figured big palpy was a Sith Lord in episode 2
I been thought that ,the jedi should have left the republic go get there own planet ,with force users and a few none force users. And use what ever credits they had to build some ships to protect themselves and there planet. Stay out of the war but still deal in peace and similar matters. The jedi should have sent a few jedi to all neutral systems and then those systems would provide credit or ships and whatever materials they need. So the jedi and neutral systems would have some sorts of protection from both side especially separatists from just taking the planet with ease.
It the best common sense thing, like that I never heard a better one!
If only Disney could watch this video, along with a few others, before making an Obi-Wan movie.
Dreams we have
It took him that long to realize his master Qui Gon Jinn was right all along
"to democracy!" - obiwan before being defeated by master wiseau
Qui Gon Jinn realized this even before the clone wars. He's the only Jedi that embodied what the Jedi should have been and was the only one who could have feeled out Sidious not through just the Force which was distorted, but through reliance of his instincts.
Another insightful video essay. You guys are getting better and better with each video. Keep up the great work!👍
Would Qui-Gon think the Republic deserved to die, if he survived the events of The Phantom Menace and Clone Wars
Most likely. Qui-Gon rejected what the Order had become under the rule of the Republic. Dooku even hinted, that Qui-Gon might have agreed on the overall goal of the Seperatist Alliance, which was not making an Emprie out of the Republic, but to end corruption and selfishness within the senate and the government. In fact one could argue, that Dooku merely allied with Palpatine to achieve his goal, but was ultimately betrayed py Palpatine who always intended to use the weakened Republic to establish a new Sith rule.
@@oliverfranke7650 Yea I had always figured that Dooku was acting as his own double agent. I think he had always meant to take out Palpatine when he revealed himself to be the Sith Lord behind the war. Why else would he even tell Obi-Wan the whole truth about what was going on in the Senate?
@@99thJediWarrior Well, it's the Sith way to surpass their masters anyway. Maybe this helped. But basically, yeah. I agree. It makes no sense for him to tell Obi-Wan about Sidious and his plans, if his masterplan didn't involve to overthrow Palpatine after the war was over. And I think that Dooku planned to get Obi-Wan on his side, because in his, and my, opinion Obi-Wan was more powerful than Anakin. Of course Anakin was more strong in the force, but he lacked the wisdom to use it.
His existence alone threatened the entire sith grand plan. If he survived and trained Anakin along with Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan and frequently by Dooku, Anakin would've accomplished what he said about becoming the most powerful jedi.
@David Carty That's neither crazy nor a joke, it's simply a fact. Anakin maybe more attuned to the Force than Obi-Wan, but he lacked the wisdom or capability to make use of that advantage. He was shortsichted, arrogant, foolish, overconfident and he lacked any wisdom. That's why he could never overcome his master, that's why he fell to the dark side and that's why in 25 years he was never able to get rid of Palpatine. Power is not a matter of Force attunement, but a matter of several factors. Being good with the Force doesn't make you powerful. Obi-Wan understood that principle. That's why he warned Anakin not to try attacking him and that's why Obo-Wan knew it would be more useful to be defeated on the Death Star. That's what true ower is. Not som "Oh I rule the galaxy" or "I am the chosen one" bullshit.
Anakin is a natural born loser.
It feels like both the Jedi and republic became corrupt and under each others control the the Jedi became mere servants of the republic but they had what seemed to be huge political influence in the republic
The jedi had the kind of influence over the republic that the catholic church had over medieval Christian countries
glenn millar true
The Jedi should never have fought the Republic's battles, nor served the Republic. They should have been serving the will of the Force. By becoming tools of the Republic, the Jedi weakened themselves and limited themselves too much.
Wonder what would've happened had Obi-Wan made this realization before Mustafar.
It would've been too late to apoligize to Anakin. lol
This is probably my favorite go to channel to watch while stoned, it’s just so surreal after smoking 5 bowls
Same lmao
The Jedi should have realized that fighting a war for a political entity with an army of slaves was ethically and morally wrong for a group of warrior priests that were dedicated to peacekeeping role.
Not everyone had realized this too late, Qui-Gon saw this in the very early stages of the Clone Wars before it even began, but his views were alas discarded by the rest of the Jedi Order. Had there been more Jedi like this, then the damage would of been greatly reduced, they should of done both, in my opinion maintain peace while listening to the will of the force, or at least tried to make more with less.
Obi-wan and yoda: Now we understand that the republic and the jedi deserved to fall.
Anakin: .....
Hope we see this in obi wan thing
The Republic may not have been worth fighting for but the Empire was worse. The best option was the Separatists.
@PhillipMargrave Very true
My allegiance is to the Republic, to DEMOCRACY!
It’s too bad that Kenobi didn’t see this until it was far too late:
But if they did see it, what could they really do about it?
Fighting the war gives the same result as seen in order 66 but not fighting it could label the Jedi as cowards and traitors to the galaxy. They were screwed either way.
2:19
(weeks earlier)
Obi-Wan: Anakin my allegiance is to the republic to *D E M O C R A C Y!*
PhillipMargrave I think obi wan went to stop Anakin too because he had killed younglings, in a way it was a police action to stop a murderer..and someone who could well harm many others.. he was standing up for justice like the Jedi were originally and essentially supposed to do.
Obi's childishly simple mistake is think that Republic & Democracy are the same………… in realty, they're not!
The Republic like all old empires died from within as its moral core, the adherence to the founding principles that had made it the greatest civilization in a galaxy far, far away had long since rotted away. Thus it became like an old, dying tree needing only one strong wind to come crashing down. It's nice to see that Obi-Wan recognized that fact at least in Legends as his thoughts on it in the new canon are yet to be seen.
He realised that the empire had the high ground
I love when he was just talking and then commander Cody died and he was like:
OOooooHHhhHhH nooooo commander Cody he just died!
There's one issue with Obi Wan realising this - he doesn't stop Legends Luke from doing the exact same thing in terms of involving himself and his New Order in the politics of the New Republic. Yes Luke doesn't get as involved as the old Order was, but it's a slippery slope he stands on, and for some reason Obi Wan doesn't say anything about this.
Obi-wan became Qui-gon. In the beginning Qui-gon questioned the jedi counsel and their choices, including the assitance they gave to the republic. He viewed the choice as an affront on the ways of the jedi which was to study and learn from the force as a whole rather than a split ideal and a tool to be used by a higher office that is only deemed higher due to the jedi's blindness in thinking that the galaxy and the republic required their prescence at all times which led to dissent and questionable actions, which may have even been ordered by the republic and sanctioned, leading to the jedi being seen as political puppets rahter than the researchers and peace keepers they were founded to be. Obi-wan was too late and Qui-gon was too early, the best time for their realizations would have been when anakin was, with regret and reluctance, made a knight and given a greater sence of pride and a deeper connection to both the chancellor and the dark side for then they would have seen that anakin was testimony to the close connection which would destroy the jedi. Sorry for rant here is potato🥔
If not for me...wisdom! That pic of Obi Wan with his head in his hands. Lol!
The more I look into Star Wars lore, the more it becomes clear that the Jedi Order was never meant to function. In Revan's/the Exile's time, the Jedi were passive to the point of indifference to the threats in the galaxy, until the Sith were practically on their throats. Pre-Russan, this mentality drove some Jedi to fight the Sith on their own terms, becoming Jedi Lords and taking the reigns of power just to stem the tide of darkness. After the Russan Reformation, the Jedi were determined to become nothing but tools of the Republic, and practically shun any form of growth. They chose to become reactionaries instead of trying to bring light and relief to the darkest parts of the galaxy. In a sense, they failed the Light side of the Force that they proclaimed to champion.
When I see "Legends"...It makes me sad. I Love Star Wars Legends....You know how many books I've read? Disney, RoundHead Johnson etc, will not ruin Star Wars for me.
The republic deserved to fall of the high ground.
I can't get over how much I enjoy this channel. Thank you for sharing with us. (me especially)
He finally understood the true purpose of the chosen one. Anakin was never born to lead the light towards victory. But rather he was born to destroy both sides. Before he destroys the enemies outside, he must destroy those within. While the Sith view the Force as a tool, the Jedi abused its powers for their own sake. Obi-Wan chooses to stay hidden because he is responsible for training the future bearer of a new light. Vader destroyed the fallen light as well as the lurking darkness, thus bringing balance. Luke was born with one job. To heal the force once his father closes the rift that is caused by Plagueis and Sidious via the Grand Experiment involving midi-chlorian manipulation.
Obi-Wan is extremely smart to see this. He was truly wise. The fall started generations ago. The rest was too easy for the Sith. And for others who wanted all system gone and replaced by a new one. Obi-Wan saw everything perfectly clear And took him just days after formation of the Galactic Empire and fall of the Jedi. What others didnt see in years,like Yoda,he saw it in days
The Republic deserved to fall long before the Clone Wars. Between corruption (always a problem), constant wars (also a big problem), war crimes in said wars (attempted genocide of the Sith species is a big one), it’s nothing short of a miracle the Republic lasted as long as it did.
You better avenge my boy---
Can you do Boshek? He was a low level force sensitive smuggler who beat Han solos record.
"Look, everybody always figures the time they live in is the most epic, most important age to end all ages. But tyrants and heroes rise and fall, and historians sort out the pieces. [...] Malak is a tyrant who should be stopped. If he conquers the galaxy we're in for a couple of rough centuries. Eventually it'll come around again, but I'd rather not wait that long."
-Jolee Bindo, one of the first Gray Jedi
It must have really haunted obi wan knowing that he crippled his best friend and left him to die to protect the government then realizing that his best friend was right in the first place that it deserved to fall years later
I like to think that Republics are for peace time, while empires are for war time
Wow never thought a Star Wars video can be so deep
I consider legends cannon, just set in a alternative universe, like a multiverse as such.
Same here!
Excellent analysis
Dude, your insights are getting better and better. I would also add, Palpatine started a war (economic and political at first) whose true purpose was to destroy the Jedi.
Well, it was to *make* the Republic corrupt and ...not standing up to, say, moneyed interests. Naboo was the first big move there, in the films, 'I will *make* it legal,' etc.
Love your videos..I hope you do more post Endor videos of legends ie the real Star Wars material
Makes you wonder if the Jedi has remained seperate and just acted to help people and the galaxy to work towards peace regardless of whether that meant working against the Republic or for it.
I would've loved it if the prequels explored more of these politics. The movies always portrayed separatists = evil and republic = good, but it was obvious that the republic has its own corruption going on, and the line between good and evil is not so obvious.
"Being dead isn't a problem but being forgotten, now that's a bitch."
- Freddy Krueger
The Jedi were peacekeepers in ancient times! They could act as mediators and advisors to the Senate but they should not have gotten too involved with the Republic as a whole. From all the novels, games, comics, etc, you can see how over the centuries they became more and more intertwined with politics and government. They had lost their way.
Fact is that the Siith also merely use the Force and do not care at ALL for the Will of the Force. They seek to dominate and use it for their own purposes.
That group of Jedi nearly killed Vader and were it not for the intervention of many Stormtroopers he have been killed.
Really sickmof the lack of balance here, inferring that the Sith had things right. They didn't and don't. They only used politics and the Force. The Jedi never liked Politics. By th same logic the Military and police should not fight for what the law givers say, and instead rebel as the Sepratists did. Which is fine. BUT the one at the top, the corrupt politician is a Sith, and ONLY from that point of view does Obi-wan mean what he concluded. Because the Sith are corrupt and politics the leaders of the Republic weren't worth fighting for. NOT the people who are the Republic.
And whatever th Jedi were th With were worse. Proof you need? If the Sith were right, their would be no Rebellion against the Empire.
Star Wars logic... LOL Idiotic circular reasoning just to justify some REALLY poor plots and ineptitude, and rinse and repeat so we can still take the Sith seriously and somehow believe the Jedi were fools.
One doesn't need the Force to see no one is that stupid, not even the Jedi. Also just stop saying th With understood more. They would come and kill your family were they real, for your even speaking a single word against them or not doing as they insisted.
Such is the fate of things that live for far too long than they should be.
Well, the Jedi Order itself nearly got destroyed on a few occasions *which they deserved*
The Jedi were the guardians of peace and Justice for over 1000 generations in the republic. They were not to be generals leading clone troops on the battlefield.
It was their own damn fault the sith exists at all
Great video and insight
This is why Qui-Gon was defiant to the high council. He wasn't serving the republic. He was serving the will of the living force.
I wonder if mace windu would realize this or replace his love of the Republic to love of the Empire
It was a Republic. That doesn't equate to Democracy, sir.
Star Wars Legends is the GOAT
Mace Windu probably played a huge role in keeping the last generation of the Jedi Order not merely loyal to the Republic but reverent to it. It was, after all, Mace's secret attachment... Poor Mace 😥 xx
Did mace predicted that the jedi will fall this whole time ?.
@@RicardoPerez-rz8pu No quite the opposite. He actively loved the Republic which is why he took the war so personally. Shatterpoint and Revenge of the Sith are great novels that explore this 😊 xx
In the videogame Knights of the Old Republic there happens to be a war in which the Republic fights and the Jedi, contrary to the Clone Wars, staid behind and didn't help, causing a schism in the Order from jedi who did want to fight and leading to another war called "the Jedi Civil War". So in that case it's ok to serve the Republic and in the Clone Wars it isn't? They jedi who staid behind are painted as selfish and self-centered, not understanding the people outside their academy.
Also, Luke and his friends fought tooth and nail against the Empire to restore the Jedi and the democratic Republic that oh so "deserved to die", are we saying it was all just a mistake and Luke should've just adopted a hermit life with Ben in Tatooine?
Very old comment I know but you raise some interesting points so I figured I'd respond. I THINK the difference is in how it's done. The old Jedi should have fought, but because it would help and protect people from an aggressive and destructive force. The clone wars however was about governmental control..the Jedi should have been looking at the cause of the war (corruption in the senate) rather than blindly fighting for the republic. I still think they should have fought the cis, the seps did some nasty things, but they never addressed the heart of the war and were defeated. Luke's order does just this during the Vong war while working to keep the republic from going too far...then turns around during the second civil war and sets up the Jedi coalition to root out the heart of the war and brings it to and end with reuniting the waring factions. The Jedi serve the force and the people...not the government. I think that's the difference. That's what's meant by balance.
Neither Obiwan nor Yoda own the fact that their hubris was as much at fault as Anikkans arrogance when it comes to order 66 Sidious gave them every opportunity to earn back Anikans loyalty instead they pushed her further and further into the darkside
I bet Qui-Gon Jinn would come to the very same conclusion if he was still alive
Count Dooku: "Republic is skrewed. Join me, Get out while you can"
Obi Wan: "Nah, fuck that. Go Republic"
*Order 66*
Obi Wan: "ah fuck he was right"
Obi wan knew Palpatine building a wall of star destroyers and making the Vong pay for it was the best path for the galaxy
Ob1 was being as short sighted as his Masters. The Sith knew that the republic was the Pearl of the Universe and it Domination would be Key to dominating every square millimeter of existence. Its true the Jedi were tools of the republic when they should have been not only the Hand of the Empi...republic it should have existed as the head. The Tennant's of the jedi are unobtainable if there is No Peace by what ever means. The Republic was 1st and last Bastion of civilization containing both the Good and Bad elements a mortal existence and the jedi should have taken advantage to guide all souls to the Light.
Poor obi, too blind to see the faults of the order, too loyal to even think about dookus hint of palpatine is sidious, he must have been in a confused and angered state for some time. Thus make him like in this video glad that the republic fell
The clone wars/republic era was definitely the best
Maybe the Jedi who attacked Darth Vader realized the horror, murder and iniquity Vader and the Emperor would inflict on the Galaxy. Yoda allowed Sidious to commit his manifold crimes on the Galaxy
A republic is always worth fighting for!
Kael Griffis Not if the Sith had already hijacked the Republic a millennia ago, which they did. By TPM the Republic is a fraud, a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
@@MMZERO9 That's maybe a petty fair & balance point.
Qui Gon knew well before anyone.
I have many, many gripes and complaints about the Rey trilogy, but if there's one thing about these films that I absolutely love, it's that Luke saw and understood what brought about the fall of the Republic and the Jedi. More than that, he had Yoda himself come back and tell him he was correct: BALANCE between the light and the dark was key.
Ironically the Republic, as it was originally designed, WAS worth fighting for. I find it interesting that most people (like Obi-wan) cane to the conclusion that the Republic was not worth fighting for because of corruption, etc. yet it was the Sith that stoked the corruption and fanned the flames of that corruption. I always had hoped that they would have turned the Darth Plegeus novel into a movie. It was interesting to see his wisdom and Palpitine’s growth. In fact, it surprised me that they didn’t make a movie about Palpitine and Vader and the Empire from their point of view ( in between episode 3 & Rogue One)
That's the logical fallacy of the entire story of Star Wars; if Palpatine hadn't been manipulating events from the shadows, the Republic would never have fallen, and neither would the Jedi. The whole thing is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It had nothing to do with Fate, or the will of the force; it was all just one guy scheming in the shadows.
As for the Empire movie; I don't think they could have made that work, as it would require the story to be told from the "Viliian's" perspective, and that would have caused all kinds of controversy.
GamerX51 as for the “villains” story: I think a story like in Battlefront 2/inferno squad would have been interesting as a movie. I think that’s what I meant. Villains turning good & other villains chasing them.
As for the Republic: you’re right about everything you said. Interestingly, the Jedi did step into a trap of their own making. By deciding to serve the light side of the Force THRU the Republic (and senate), it ended up destroying their abilities in the force. The Jedi served the Republic which was controlled by the Dark Lord of the Sith, so in the end the Good Jedi were serving the Bad Sith. It’s not surprising that their abilities started to get “fogged up”. It was a no win scenario. From an evil, Machiavellian way, it was a brilliant plan by Darth Plageus & Sideous
@@pduidesign I feel that the conflation of Light/Dark with Good/Bad is an even bigger problem. "Good" Jedi committed some horrifying crimes, and the "Bad" Sith, in the form of the Emperor and the Empire would have saved trillions of lives from the repeated extra-Galactic invasions that occurred in the EU. When your point of view is sufficiently large, "Good" and "Bad" become merely labels for sides, not meaningful value judgements
Obi-Wan didn’t realize there was something supremely messed up with the Galactic Republic when the Senate sent the Clones/Child soldiers into combat?
well see the separatists were much worse obviously so they were completely justified duh
excuses excuses
Tell me, which's what should sound right towards certain forts of somebodies that who raised in a profession that suppose to come with a conscious… is it "Didn't realize there was something supremely messed up with the Galactic Republic when the Senate sent the Clones/Child soldiers into combat!" or "Suppose to smell there was something supremely rotting in the state of The Galactic Republic when the Senate sent the Clones/Child soldiers into combat!"?
Great to see that Democracy is a sick joke
Imagine if Obi Wan had reached this realization when he met Dooku and was offered a part to play.
I wonder how Dooku and Obi Wan might have changed the Republic?
I thought the 'Revenge of the Sith' was to turn the Chosen One to the Dark Side?
and there you have it
Had Darth Sidious been a little more patient and waited to kill Darth Plagues. It would have changed the out come. Anikan would had better training and both Darth Masters would have taken on Obi wan and Yoda
That's assuming that nothing else in the regular timeline gets changed by plagueis being alive.
Good point. I had not thought of that.
Obi-Wan doesn't need to be on the high ground, the high ground just needs to exist within the battle; Obi-Wan knows that when he has the low ground, he really has the high ground, from a certain point of view;
Look at his battle record:
Maul: Has low ground, wins
Dooku: No high ground, loses
Dooku rematch: No high ground, loses
Grevious: Has low ground, wins
Vader: Has high ground, wins
Vader rematch: No high ground, loses
Obi-Wan with the high/low ground is canonically the most powerful Jedi. This is fact. Had Yoda not denied his request to battle The Senate with typical Jedi arrogance, Obi-Wan could have defeated Palpatine in the Senate building, which housed a variety of different altitudes; this was designed so that the Chancellor could always have the moral high ground in political debates. But Obi-wan didn't fight The Senate, and Yoda soon learned that you can't cleave the Sheev in a normal 1v1.
Yoda is shorter than virtually every other fighter, which gives him a permanent low-ground disadvantage; however, his saber-fighting style utilizes a flipping-heavy technique in order to negate this weakness for a temporary window. You'll notice that, as he falls from the central podium in The Senate's building, he immediately retreats, knowing that he can never hold the high ground in this duel. You'll also notice that, while training Luke, he rides on him like a mount, to gain the intellectual high ground and accelerate Luke's training. Obi-Wan's defensive Form III lightsaber style synergizes with his careful military maneuvers; as he only strikes when prepared, he can always hold the strategic high ground. You'll come to realize that Commander Cody's artillery strike failed against Obi-Wan, when hundreds of Jedi were killed in similar attacks. Cody failed to grasp the strategic situation, as the Jedi Master's elevation was superior to his by hundreds of meters, making him virtually unkillable. Had Cody taken his time and engaged the Jedi on even terrain, he could have possibly succeeded. Obi-Wan then retreated under the surface of the lake, so that he could maintain the topographical low/high ground. In RotS, you'll notice that all the Jedi killed were on level ground with the clones, thereby assuring their demise.
As we all know, spinning is a good trick. However, only the Chosen one can spin outside of a starfighter. Palpatine tried spinning, but he lost due to this technique (but this was intentional, as losing gave him the emotional high ground when Anakin arrived). The reason for this is that spinning provides a yin-yang approach to combat (based in Eastern philosophy on balance), giving the spinner the high ground from above and below. Only the Chosen One can master the spin, as it is their destiny to maintain balance in the universe. This is why Obi-Wan was so emotional after defeating Vader on Mustafar; he expected to lose the high ground to the spin, but Anakin fell to the dark side and could no longer use his signature trick, becoming the very thing he swore to destroy.
Anakin doesn't hate sand for the reasons he told Padme; all Jedi hate sand, as the battlefield can rapidly change between low and high ground on multiple vectors, so your perspective must be from a certain three-dimensional point of view in order to comprehend who holds the high ground. This is the only reason why Obi-Wan killed Maul in Rebels. This is also why Obi-Wan hates flying; there is no gravity in space, therefore there is no high or low ground from any frame of reference (This also negates the spinning trick).
It took the Tusken Raiders years of conflict against Old Ben Kenobi to grasp his superiority in terrain advantage, as you see them visibly flee in ANH when they realize he holds the low (inverse-high) ground. Additionally, Obi-Wan's victory in the cantina against the drunkard was assured, as he held the temperamental high ground, his actions more calculated and well-thought than the alcoholic, who was so uncivilized.
In ANH, Vader proves his newfound mastery by engaging Obi on perfectly even ground. However, Obi-Wan intentionally sacrifices himself on the Death Star, so that he could train Luke from a higher plane of existence, thereby giving him the metaphysical high ground.
Why was Vader so invested in the construction and maintenance of the Death Star? Because he knows Obi-wan can't have the high ground if there's no ground left.
As seen through the events of the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan was known to be on friendly terms with Senator Organa, whose homeworld held large quantities of mountainous terrain, the perfect habitat for a Jedi Master. Grand Moff Tarkin was already in position to destroy Alderaan as a first target, as the distance from Scarif to Alderaan was too vast to reach between the escape and recapture of the Tantive IV, even at 1.0 lightspeed. Alderaan had been the initial target all along, as Obi-Wan with the high ground was the primary threat to the Death Star. How? Because a moon-sized space station would have some form of gravitational pull, thereby negating Obi-Wan's zero-gravity weakness; Obi-Wan with the perpetual high-ground in a low-orbit starfighter would easily be able to fire proton torpedoes through a ventilation shaft, although the Empire was uncertain of the specific weakness of the Death Star planned by Galen Erso (who was a good friend).
In Return of the Jedi, you can see that the Throne Room contains a variety of different altitudes; Palpatine placed these there to ensure Vader's defeat. However, Sheev failed to realize that his weakness was no ground, and should have covered that useless gaping pit which does nothing.
A common misconception is the idea of a 'prostrate position' version of the high ground, wherein Obi-Wan lies flat on his back, giving him tactical superiority from his point of view. However, this strategy is futile, as for the high ground to come into effect, there must be a differential between parties on both the x-axis and y-axis to a moderately significant variation from both absolutes (Angles only a Sith would deal in.). For Obi-Wan's high ground powers to have full effect, he must stand between 15 and 75 degrees (π/12 to 5π/12 radians) diagonal from his opponent(s) on any quadrant of the trigonometric circle.
In conclusion, Obi-wan abuses spatial relativity and Taoist doctrine in order to always invoke his high-ground powers.
Edit: FYI, this is a copypasta i found on r/prequelmemes.
If I had an internet to give, then it would most assuredly be yours; I've never laughed that hard in the entirety of my life.
GamerX51 yeh basically obi wan didn't fight the emperor coz his force powers weren't as strong as Yoda's which can see from ROTS film! 😂
My favorite lightsaber style is kylo Ren's
thanks
Jedi feared that Republic will fall.
"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."