All around solid advice, applicable to all levels of d&d. Create a situation, throw the players in, see what happens. But you didn't answer the specific issues with high level D&D that much. And I have experienced it, finishing a campaign at level 18 because we were exhausted. - HPs across the board go into hundreds, sometimes thousands - Character sheets become small booklets between all the spells, abilities, items etc - Many high level spells are multiple paragraph essays with lots of fine points - High CR monsters can have sheets spanning multiple pages. Spells, abilities, Legendary Actions, Legendary Resistances etc - High CR monsters also don't hit as hard as they should, so now I'm playing Game Designer with even more unwieldy numbers - Legendary Resistances are also unfun. Player uses cool ability, Monster goes Nu-Uuuuh, nothing happens, next. Now we're playing "goad the DM into using Legendary Resistances". - DM also can't really go for "When in doubt, add monsters" approach because combat is already a slog - All for Level 20 capstone abilities that are underwhelming (which you have mentioned being the case) So it's a giant slog of a game where I have to homebrew monsters, constantly make rulings while we all try to manage a laundry list of stuff we can do on a turn.
Many of these points already start at around level 9-13 (depending on the number of players and the campaign). Even a single legendary monster with legendary actions and lair actions is incredibly cumbersome to run, and then you kind of *have to* add minions to the fight so the players don't overpower the encounter in two rounds. It's just not enjoyable gameplay.
Fair points! I'm going to try and address them here, but as briefly as I can. :) - HP increases are balanced by damage increases. - Character sheets grow in complexity over time, so unless you START at high levels it rarely confounds the player, who has grown into it over a year or more of play. - Many spells are complicated, but an equal number are simple. Of note, combat spells tend to be simpler, at all levels, than non-combat, and outside of combat, a moment or two of reading is rarely a problem. Managing these details again comes with practice. - High CR Legendary monsters can be complex, but practice helps. They're usually expected to be feature pieces, too, which makes the complexity fairly understandable and manageable as they're not for every-week play. - The damage problem is acknowledged, but also being addressed in newer publications. However, using the lower damage numbers of older play rarely results in sad game-play, and doubling the damage while being conservative of how many enemies you pitch against your players is a simple fix that doesn't require a lot of "designer chops". - Check out my video on fixing Legendary Resistances. Giving them a physical form that can be interacted with does wonders to add options and interest to this necessary but dull mechanic. - Adding monsters has this effect at all levels of play, there is a significant sweet spot that differs by experience and ability for each DM. When in doubt, increase damage, not numbers. - Level 20 capstones DO suck, lol, no disagreement here. But that doesn't make the game-play suck. I hope that at least addresses the points. Regardless, as I often say: "there's always another opinion" and you are certainly entitled to yours! :)
THANK you. I'm getting really tired of this defeatist zeitgeist that people keep perpetuating because it makes them feel like they know the right words to say to fit in
Awesome! Keep those villains rolling on! I've always wanted a successful villains game, but back in the day my players were... a little too willing to work against one another for the ideas to last long.
@@DM-Timothy Yeah that's been the biggest hurdle, but we've agreed to require explicit consent for PVP stuff, sort of like an out of game duel challenge. They're "evil" to others, not one another (other than banter). Alignment is being treated as "guidelines" rather than actual rules. It's good fun!
Having both played to level 20 and being well on my way to DMing at level 20 (currently level 18) the problem in my eyes always is with the way the game progresses. D&D gives actually very few tools to DM on high level so you have to have very good grasp of the system with what you can throw at your players. I'm completely with you, CR becomes useless. And you have to know what your players can handle, especially since some creatures might be deadly to your group setup while others will be a pushover. Kinda nice to see a Video from someone who really gives the feeling that he knows what hes talking about.
Thank you! Your comment means a lot. I definitely agree that more tools for high-level DMing would be a big boon, not to mention more explanations and how-tos.
@@DM-Timothy With what is known so far I guess the upcomming Remaster gives a lot more recources like that in the DMG. Though I think the 5th Edition DMG was kinda underappreciated. I used that book a lot. I also have made good experiences with stealing haunts/traps from Pathfinder 2e instead of using D&D 5th Edition traps. I used a high level haunt / trap against my group when they were around level 15 that I really liked.
@@DM-Timothy they basically work like this: A trap or haunt is dormant until it is encountered. The Group has a chance to be aware of it before it. If they dont find it the haunt starts the battle with a reaction (or a surprise round in 5th edition) and gets to do something. After that it has a normal place in turn order so you can just play it in Initiative. The Group can try to destroy it or try to interact with it with applicable skills. Its basically a complex 5th edition trap but it has a framework how it works. You can also Mix and Match what the Focus is. In my example the haunt/trap was an echo of Lolth on a plane where she doesnt have have much influence anymore
Agree, when I was running for a level 12 party, I mostly made up the plan of the enemies and what they had access to. That my players decided to source the strongest poison they could find and use an invisible long distance familiar to drone bomb the evil warlord (that was secretly a vampire) whereafter said familiar set his place on fire was not planned for, but man was it memorable
Thank your for that nice vidéo. i've been dming for some time now in 5e and I felt what you said was true at every step of the Dnd levels. It's probably just truer the higher the game goes (I haven't had the pleasure of Dming in 5e with characters above lvl 10 yet but I eargerly anticipated how fun it seems to be :) ).
Fantastic advise. High level play is my favorite. It is awesome, but takes a ton of time in combat. Tons of hitpoints and dice to count. I completely agree with the every part of the video!
My highest level character was from Tyranny of Dragons. And while I didnt really complain about the sluggishness of combat. Certain members complained because it was just the same every round for them. When it comes to DMing I have only run one "long" campaign, and while my players voiced a desire to reach lvl 20, at around lvl 8 I started to notice the player momentum and initiative slowing down. In the end the campaign ended at lvl 10 (Which tbh was more in line with what I was aiming for to begin with )
These sound like boring players. There are so many tables where high level play thrives. If they are tied of every round being the "same", why don't they play a different class? If you play a caster, I doubt every round is the same for you. Maybe a fighter has that issue. Even then I do have a melee Mystical Monk and I love describing her actions and various strikes each round. She's got to be my most fun character to play so I don't get it. I also have two Sorlock blasters and they definitely have plenty of things to change up combat. Frankly, players just need to "git good". Stop wasting time looking at your phone and pay attention to the map. Plan what you're going to do before your turn comes up. Learn your character sheet and know your powers/skills/spells. Be snappy, you get describe all your actions, roll damage + attack rolls at the same time and live in the moment all in 1 minute. Stop being convoluted and use the game mechanics laid out. That's my advice to players who think combat is sluggish. 5e Combat isn't slow, players are slow. Speed it up! Peeps! We got sh$t to do!😊
Been running a once a month campaign via the internet for around four years now and we are on our march to 20th level. Around 16th level now I think. Five players and all have spells (rouge went arcane rouge, Ranger gets spells). Luckily for me only the Ranger, Rouge and cleric never multi classed. The Bard and Sorcerer have a second class - which has saved me from facing at least one tier of spells. And the cleric only heals or does the blast that gives advantage on the next attack. He mostly prefers to wade in and melee - and is the party's tank. Running in Fantasy Grounds my ability to make stuff up on the fly is a bit restricted. But yeah, most combat rounds are three or four characters tossing a spell. Sometimes all five. As DM challenging them requires high level casters against them which is a bit of a drain on the DM but luckily at once a month it's doable.
In 5e at least the high levels tend to encourage players to find a solution on their character sheet rather than find creative solutions, environmental cues etc that aren’t just an ability. There are also lots of spells/abilities that are fun for the players to use but are not as fun for the dm to run against the players. (Trapping/incapacitating spells especially) so the DM has to continually use a smaller and smaller tool set and it’s easy for players to have less fun vs. the DMs effort to prepare
I would say that players tend to enjoy using their cool toys, but I think failure to look for creative solutions is a specific table problem rather than a 5e problem. I know my players are constantly looking for weird and wonderful ways to succeed in their quests, regardless of their personal abilities. Certain spells and abilities can be a challenge to deal with, but I certainly have never felt "constrained" by a players ability to do something. Then again, I build on situations, rather than on the abilities of my players, and then I use what I have to its best effect, instead of trying to predict what'll happen.
Thanks for providing a positive perspective on high level play. I feel like all I hear is negativity, but myself and my players all want to reach high level play. I really appreciate your advice for how to run the game and I agree wholeheartedly that you can’t DM from the perspective of guiding the story to a certain point or conclusion, but just have to follow where the players lead and keep presenting new challenges and conflict. If there ceases to ever be conflict that present a significant challenge for the party, that’s when a game dies for a lack of interest in the campaign, but I could also see it dying based on mechanics if it becomes a grind. I think my party will get there and they’ll have fun taking on the elder dragons as they awake, the first ever Lich of my world as he comes back to the prime material plane, and face off against the dragon gods and seek to join them back together. How is it all going to go? I have no freaking idea, I just know it’s going to be epic and my players are going to get to do some awesome stuff that makes them feel bad A. It’s not about me and my skill at presenting this awesome story as a form of entertainment to them, it’s about me coming up with new and exciting challenges that make them feel cool as they overcome them and allow them to see the impact their characters are having on the world around them.
You've got the right mentality, and that's more than half the battle. High level play is gonna be great at your table. I'm excited to hear how it goes!
ב"ה My campaign is now at level 10 soon going to 11, so it feel nice to hear that the game keep going well at higher levels too. My game is supposed to go to around level 19, and I am glad to hear it could work well. So far I ballance encounter days by the DMG and it work fine. One it will become too easy I will move to ballance encounter by Xanathar's guide to everything. Once even that will be too easy, I will need to start looking for other options.
The biggest challenge for my high-level groups is the amount of stuff they can do for their turns. Rounds of combat become a slog at higher levels, and I've noticed player engagement suffer for it. I have tried a number of different techniques to speed up the rounds and turns, but beyond, literally skipping players for not being ready (I've done this, and it works... but at what cost, people always get butt hurt over this). It ends up feeling like an episode of DBZ filler, ya know?
Different tables suffer from this to different degrees, but it is definitely a valid concern. I enjoyed some success with a 30 second timer to declare actions (not resolve them). Skipping can feel rough, but one option is a "delay 1 initiative position", which doesn't feel nearly as bad, but lets the game keep moving.
I really don't get this mentality. CR system is very good for new dms and provides a good baseline for tier 1 and 2 of play. And I'd assume that a first time dm, isn't dming at t3 and t4
High level PCs are far from invulnerable. In a recent campaign I pinned down a small group of 17th level PCs through an iron golem along with 3 erinyes with the sharpshooter feat. The devils flew around at very long range and "discouraged" the PCs from melee with the golem, forcing them back a few times until they had to cut a deal. Entertaining for all!
Totally agree. I see people say that PCs are invincible at high levels and I want to ask my players to offer testimonials as to their vulnerability... lol
@@tuomasronnberg5244 it depends on what kind of "pinning" you want, and of course your group makeup. Do you mean literally just how do you stop them from going somewhere you don't want them to? Most of the time, I don't, I just get excited at their cool abilities, and note that they burned some resources to pull it off. But there are spells that interact with many of those other options if you really need to build a place that shuts down some of their options. Ultimately, if you're not trying to force them to engage in a certain way, you'll enjoy the game a lot more. It does require more flexibility, but the gameplay that comes from it can be very satisfying.
@@DM-Timothy Ah, I was interested how the OP did it, because to me it doesn't really sound possible without taking away character abilities (which is bad GMing)
@@tuomasronnberg5244 I'd caveat that people sometimes not being able to use their best tool because of in-world situations isn't bad DMing. Consistently taking away their abilities is, though, I can agree. I'm guessing from his original posting that pinning down essentially just meant in that combat the PCs didn't have a lot of options for dealing with the 600' range from which the Erinyes were able to pluck shots off at the group while they tried to deal with the iron golem in their midst. Many groups would definitely have tools to work against that, but it's a pretty potent combo.
I honestly can’t wait to get to higher levels. It’s not that much fun watching my level 4 players get whooped by the big bad because of some poor decisions and bad dice roles.
I'm currently level 18 in the Dungeon of the Mad Mage. We get through our turns fast and it's a blast. 5E combat isn't slow, it just has slow players who don't know their character sheets and need to learn the rules. "Vera the Mystical Monk, it's your turn!" Action - She casts Haste Bonus Action - She brings up her bladesong filling the air with a watery-metalic melody Move - She moves 45 feet to Talis the Dragon Cultist. Hasted Action - Vera superman punches her in the grill. "Here's my to hit and damage all rolled at the same time to save time." 27 to hit for 9 bludgeoning damage. My AC is now 27 without a Shield reaction of course. I end my turn. "Zog the Barbarian, its your turn!" Snappy snappy people. Let's move! Let's move!😅
@@DBArtsCreators That's more description than 90 % of players give, please. Chit chat? Chit chat is for RP, why are you giving speeches in the middle of combat? Why are you taking 5 minutes and holding everyone up? Go learn your sheets and come back when you have learned it. Otherwise we are putting a timer on you. Stop being sloooooooow and booooooring.
@@DBArtsCreators maybe you like taking 20 minutes to finish a round but most of us dont. Here's a more detailed description. I gave the cliff notes because I didn't want to type twice. #1 DnD combat isn't slow, you're slow. I take at the most 1 minute to finish my turn. Learn your sheets. Think about what you're going to do when it's not your turn instead of playing on your phone.😅 Example: Mystical Monk: Vera spins her long sword in delicate archs that produce a watery-metalic melody - Bladesong Bonus action. AC is now 21 With her free hand she weaves glowing arcane symbols in the air as they break apart and swirl around her before being absorbed into her body. Vera casts Haste as her Action. AC now 23. Vera dashes 45 feet, superman punches Talis the Dragon Cultist in her face and then she yells, "your heart is clouded by darkness, we bring the light!" Move + Hasted Attack Action Then I roll my attack + my damage at the same time. 26 to hit for 9 bludgeoning. Done! End of my turn! Roleplaying + quick 1 minute turn combat. Do it!😊
@@007ohboy Not the end of your turn until the DM says it is, for one - they'd still be adding the results of what you are trying (because you don't get a say in whether or not what you try actually works). Never mind if the enemy (or enemies) has/have Reactions, Legendary Actions, Lair Actions, Readied Actions, or if there are environmental obstacles/hazards at play. So, nah, I'd say you failed to do both combat and roleplay. You more seem to be trying to skip both to dictate what happens and skip the responses the world may have (unless there's only something like one basic enemy, likely not worth fighting or nor very interesting to fight. A shame if that's all your combats amount to).
There is a lot of excellent advice here. BUT. I've just finished a 4 hour session that ran on to 6 hours in which our 5 player level 15 party completed 8 rounds of combat. That's less than a minute of fighting and a session overrunning by two hours. Good luck to the groups that can pull off a fun game at these levels. And hats off to all the players and DMs with legendary resistance to tedium. I doubt I shall ever sign up for another D&D campaign.
I seriously don't get groups like that unless it was a one shot where people didn't know their characters and powers? At the most....and I mean the most, it takes me 2 minutes to finish my turn. Most the time it's less than a minute. We can get through a whole round of combat in less than 5 minutes and describe in detail what our characters are doing and the game mechanic actions we are taking to do what we want. We are level 18.
I'm sorry your experience hasn't been the best. Was this an ongoing campaign that you've played up to level 15? Or something that started at that level?
How do you know high level play sucks? It's been my experience that high level play bogs down considerably--there is nothing in the monster manual that can even touch a 12th level party, much less a 20th, unless you're talking about an old school lich, but that drives to another point. Because at a certain point the only thing that can challenge a high level party is another high level party. That can be fun for a scenario or two. But then it becomes old hat. After level 12, players are grinding through experience points without fear of permanent death, absent something like a sphere of annihilation. That's really not that exciting. As far as bogging down, every time someone has to look up a spell or a magic item, whether it's a player or a DM, the game stops in it's tracks, and there is no way anyone can keep all the particulars of all the spells in their spell list in their head. So looking up spells and adjudicating them at the table takes time--range, duration area of effect, okay so how does this actually translate to the battlefield? All of that takes time to the point where it takes 45 minutes to get through a single combat round. And this does not include all the other characters with all their special abilities and feats. While I don't run 300 games a year, I have been doing this since 1982, and when I was much younger I ran characters into the 20th+ levels to the point where the characters might as well have been a pantheon of gods. The furthest I take characters now is 12th level---at that point they retire to domains and we start with a new party, perhaps in lands or regions where the old characters had settled, turning their old characters into the quest givers. Players see how their characters have left deep foot prints in the world.
You've got me by a couple of years, I didn't start DMing till '96. :D I don't use character creation rules for creating npcs, but my players definitely know they're in danger. The threat of death, even knowing there's opportunity to be revived, is a constant danger for players because they know they will have to sit out the rest of the encounter waiting for that resurrection, and no one likes being put in the corner. Certain players definitely do bog things down with meticulous thinking and planning, but there are ways to mitigate that, and players that grow up with their characters across a year or two of play tend to have a fairly comprehensive understanding of all but their most recently gained abilities. Thanks for sharing your opinion. I don't share it, but that's alright. :)
How do I know high level games suck? Hm.... absurd monsters, multiverse, dealing with gods on a daily basis, flying, teleport... need I say more? Magic is an abomination it sucks the juice out of any world and leaves it a dry husk. So, yeah, I don't like playing or mastering above level 10.
Sounds boring to me. Did Drizzt stop at level 10? Eliminster? Do you even know who those people are? How familiar are you with the lore? Why would you play a game where you hate the much of the premise? Where is the respect?😅 A lot of players just lack focus and have short attention I think. "I want to play a goblin archer." "Im bored now. Now I want to play a Haregon Mage!" "Ah man, we just started fighting midteir monsters like Fire Giants. I'm bored. Now I want to play a lizardman shawman." It's like some DMs and PCs love baby parties where the biggest threat to them is a band of orcs or a few trolls. Have you even walked the plane of Baator and slashed your way through the Hells? You're missing out on so much epic stuff because it seems you like your world to be simple and small. Open up, my man! I'm playing several high level adventurers and I'd say that where the real fun is. Who plays Skyrim and just quits after the first dungeon? 😅
To each their own, for sure! Playing D&D and disliking magic in the world are tough to reconcile in most settings. Whatever works for you and your table :)
All around solid advice, applicable to all levels of d&d. Create a situation, throw the players in, see what happens.
But you didn't answer the specific issues with high level D&D that much. And I have experienced it, finishing a campaign at level 18 because we were exhausted.
- HPs across the board go into hundreds, sometimes thousands
- Character sheets become small booklets between all the spells, abilities, items etc
- Many high level spells are multiple paragraph essays with lots of fine points
- High CR monsters can have sheets spanning multiple pages. Spells, abilities, Legendary Actions, Legendary Resistances etc
- High CR monsters also don't hit as hard as they should, so now I'm playing Game Designer with even more unwieldy numbers
- Legendary Resistances are also unfun. Player uses cool ability, Monster goes Nu-Uuuuh, nothing happens, next. Now we're playing "goad the DM into using Legendary Resistances".
- DM also can't really go for "When in doubt, add monsters" approach because combat is already a slog
- All for Level 20 capstone abilities that are underwhelming (which you have mentioned being the case)
So it's a giant slog of a game where I have to homebrew monsters, constantly make rulings while we all try to manage a laundry list of stuff we can do on a turn.
Many of these points already start at around level 9-13 (depending on the number of players and the campaign). Even a single legendary monster with legendary actions and lair actions is incredibly cumbersome to run, and then you kind of *have to* add minions to the fight so the players don't overpower the encounter in two rounds.
It's just not enjoyable gameplay.
Fair points! I'm going to try and address them here, but as briefly as I can. :)
- HP increases are balanced by damage increases.
- Character sheets grow in complexity over time, so unless you START at high levels it rarely confounds the player, who has grown into it over a year or more of play.
- Many spells are complicated, but an equal number are simple. Of note, combat spells tend to be simpler, at all levels, than non-combat, and outside of combat, a moment or two of reading is rarely a problem. Managing these details again comes with practice.
- High CR Legendary monsters can be complex, but practice helps. They're usually expected to be feature pieces, too, which makes the complexity fairly understandable and manageable as they're not for every-week play.
- The damage problem is acknowledged, but also being addressed in newer publications. However, using the lower damage numbers of older play rarely results in sad game-play, and doubling the damage while being conservative of how many enemies you pitch against your players is a simple fix that doesn't require a lot of "designer chops".
- Check out my video on fixing Legendary Resistances. Giving them a physical form that can be interacted with does wonders to add options and interest to this necessary but dull mechanic.
- Adding monsters has this effect at all levels of play, there is a significant sweet spot that differs by experience and ability for each DM. When in doubt, increase damage, not numbers.
- Level 20 capstones DO suck, lol, no disagreement here. But that doesn't make the game-play suck.
I hope that at least addresses the points. Regardless, as I often say: "there's always another opinion" and you are certainly entitled to yours! :)
Basically any railroading DM will find high level play impossible.
That's true, too.
Railroading dm yes. Linear story dm no
@@snappa_tv A fair distinction, though a fine one for many. Thanks for your comment.
THANK you. I'm getting really tired of this defeatist zeitgeist that people keep perpetuating because it makes them feel like they know the right words to say to fit in
You’re welcome. :)
Really great and affirming video. Got a party at level 14 in 5E... and they're playing villains. Going strong since 2020!
Awesome! Keep those villains rolling on! I've always wanted a successful villains game, but back in the day my players were... a little too willing to work against one another for the ideas to last long.
@@DM-Timothy Yeah that's been the biggest hurdle, but we've agreed to require explicit consent for PVP stuff, sort of like an out of game duel challenge. They're "evil" to others, not one another (other than banter). Alignment is being treated as "guidelines" rather than actual rules. It's good fun!
Having both played to level 20 and being well on my way to DMing at level 20 (currently level 18) the problem in my eyes always is with the way the game progresses. D&D gives actually very few tools to DM on high level so you have to have very good grasp of the system with what you can throw at your players. I'm completely with you, CR becomes useless. And you have to know what your players can handle, especially since some creatures might be deadly to your group setup while others will be a pushover. Kinda nice to see a Video from someone who really gives the feeling that he knows what hes talking about.
Thank you! Your comment means a lot. I definitely agree that more tools for high-level DMing would be a big boon, not to mention more explanations and how-tos.
@@DM-Timothy With what is known so far I guess the upcomming Remaster gives a lot more recources like that in the DMG. Though I think the 5th Edition DMG was kinda underappreciated. I used that book a lot. I also have made good experiences with stealing haunts/traps from Pathfinder 2e instead of using D&D 5th Edition traps. I used a high level haunt / trap against my group when they were around level 15 that I really liked.
@@mb45hg I haven't looked at PF2E pretty much at all, what makes haunts/traps different than 5e traps?
@@DM-Timothy they basically work like this:
A trap or haunt is dormant until it is encountered. The Group has a chance to be aware of it before it. If they dont find it the haunt starts the battle with a reaction (or a surprise round in 5th edition) and gets to do something. After that it has a normal place in turn order so you can just play it in Initiative. The Group can try to destroy it or try to interact with it with applicable skills.
Its basically a complex 5th edition trap but it has a framework how it works. You can also Mix and Match what the Focus is. In my example the haunt/trap was an echo of Lolth on a plane where she doesnt have have much influence anymore
@@mb45hg Sounds pretty interesting! Thanks for explaining them for me.
Agree, when I was running for a level 12 party, I mostly made up the plan of the enemies and what they had access to.
That my players decided to source the strongest poison they could find and use an invisible long distance familiar to drone bomb the evil warlord (that was secretly a vampire) whereafter said familiar set his place on fire was not planned for, but man was it memorable
It sounds like it! :D Thanks for sharing your experience.
Thank your for that nice vidéo. i've been dming for some time now in 5e and I felt what you said was true at every step of the Dnd levels. It's probably just truer the higher the game goes (I haven't had the pleasure of Dming in 5e with characters above lvl 10 yet but I eargerly anticipated how fun it seems to be :) ).
Thank you so much for your comment! I definitely concur that the advice is applicable at all levels, but perhaps more "necessary" for high-level.
Fantastic advise. High level play is my favorite. It is awesome, but takes a ton of time in combat. Tons of hitpoints and dice to count. I completely agree with the every part of the video!
Thank you!
Thats when real time game experience comes into play, ive been ganing for 17 plus years and that experience helps believe it or not.
Experience definitely helps.
My highest level character was from Tyranny of Dragons. And while I didnt really complain about the sluggishness of combat. Certain members complained because it was just the same every round for them.
When it comes to DMing I have only run one "long" campaign, and while my players voiced a desire to reach lvl 20, at around lvl 8 I started to notice the player momentum and initiative slowing down. In the end the campaign ended at lvl 10 (Which tbh was more in line with what I was aiming for to begin with )
These sound like boring players. There are so many tables where high level play thrives.
If they are tied of every round being the "same", why don't they play a different class? If you play a caster, I doubt every round is the same for you. Maybe a fighter has that issue.
Even then I do have a melee Mystical Monk and I love describing her actions and various strikes each round. She's got to be my most fun character to play so I don't get it. I also have two Sorlock blasters and they definitely have plenty of things to change up combat.
Frankly, players just need to "git good". Stop wasting time looking at your phone and pay attention to the map. Plan what you're going to do before your turn comes up. Learn your character sheet and know your powers/skills/spells. Be snappy, you get describe all your actions, roll damage + attack rolls at the same time and live in the moment all in 1 minute. Stop being convoluted and use the game mechanics laid out. That's my advice to players who think combat is sluggish.
5e Combat isn't slow, players are slow. Speed it up! Peeps! We got sh$t to do!😊
"Same every round for them" seems like the opposite of typical high-level play. Interesting! Thank you for your comment.
Been running a once a month campaign via the internet for around four years now and we are on our march to 20th level. Around 16th level now I think. Five players and all have spells (rouge went arcane rouge, Ranger gets spells). Luckily for me only the Ranger, Rouge and cleric never multi classed. The Bard and Sorcerer have a second class - which has saved me from facing at least one tier of spells. And the cleric only heals or does the blast that gives advantage on the next attack. He mostly prefers to wade in and melee - and is the party's tank. Running in Fantasy Grounds my ability to make stuff up on the fly is a bit restricted. But yeah, most combat rounds are three or four characters tossing a spell. Sometimes all five. As DM challenging them requires high level casters against them which is a bit of a drain on the DM but luckily at once a month it's doable.
Good on you for taking it on and just letting it happen. :)
In 5e at least the high levels tend to encourage players to find a solution on their character sheet rather than find creative solutions, environmental cues etc that aren’t just an ability. There are also lots of spells/abilities that are fun for the players to use but are not as fun for the dm to run against the players. (Trapping/incapacitating spells especially) so the DM has to continually use a smaller and smaller tool set and it’s easy for players to have less fun vs. the DMs effort to prepare
I would say that players tend to enjoy using their cool toys, but I think failure to look for creative solutions is a specific table problem rather than a 5e problem. I know my players are constantly looking for weird and wonderful ways to succeed in their quests, regardless of their personal abilities.
Certain spells and abilities can be a challenge to deal with, but I certainly have never felt "constrained" by a players ability to do something. Then again, I build on situations, rather than on the abilities of my players, and then I use what I have to its best effect, instead of trying to predict what'll happen.
Great video! Lots of good advice for any tier of play! 👍
Thank you! :)
Thanks for providing a positive perspective on high level play. I feel like all I hear is negativity, but myself and my players all want to reach high level play. I really appreciate your advice for how to run the game and I agree wholeheartedly that you can’t DM from the perspective of guiding the story to a certain point or conclusion, but just have to follow where the players lead and keep presenting new challenges and conflict. If there ceases to ever be conflict that present a significant challenge for the party, that’s when a game dies for a lack of interest in the campaign, but I could also see it dying based on mechanics if it becomes a grind. I think my party will get there and they’ll have fun taking on the elder dragons as they awake, the first ever Lich of my world as he comes back to the prime material plane, and face off against the dragon gods and seek to join them back together. How is it all going to go? I have no freaking idea, I just know it’s going to be epic and my players are going to get to do some awesome stuff that makes them feel bad A. It’s not about me and my skill at presenting this awesome story as a form of entertainment to them, it’s about me coming up with new and exciting challenges that make them feel cool as they overcome them and allow them to see the impact their characters are having on the world around them.
You've got the right mentality, and that's more than half the battle. High level play is gonna be great at your table. I'm excited to hear how it goes!
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My campaign is now at level 10 soon going to 11, so it feel nice to hear that the game keep going well at higher levels too. My game is supposed to go to around level 19, and I am glad to hear it could work well.
So far I ballance encounter days by the DMG and it work fine. One it will become too easy I will move to ballance encounter by Xanathar's guide to everything. Once even that will be too easy, I will need to start looking for other options.
There is definitely hope. High level play can be tough, but it's very rewarding, too.
The biggest challenge for my high-level groups is the amount of stuff they can do for their turns. Rounds of combat become a slog at higher levels, and I've noticed player engagement suffer for it. I have tried a number of different techniques to speed up the rounds and turns, but beyond, literally skipping players for not being ready (I've done this, and it works... but at what cost, people always get butt hurt over this). It ends up feeling like an episode of DBZ filler, ya know?
Different tables suffer from this to different degrees, but it is definitely a valid concern. I enjoyed some success with a 30 second timer to declare actions (not resolve them). Skipping can feel rough, but one option is a "delay 1 initiative position", which doesn't feel nearly as bad, but lets the game keep moving.
lol. I threw the CR system out the window as soon as I started DM'ing 5e 😅
I really don't get this mentality. CR system is very good for new dms and provides a good baseline for tier 1 and 2 of play. And I'd assume that a first time dm, isn't dming at t3 and t4
While I wouldn't advise this for EVERY DM, I can understand the mentality :D
High level PCs are far from invulnerable. In a recent campaign I pinned down a small group of 17th level PCs through an iron golem along with 3 erinyes with the sharpshooter feat. The devils flew around at very long range and "discouraged" the PCs from melee with the golem, forcing them back a few times until they had to cut a deal. Entertaining for all!
Totally agree. I see people say that PCs are invincible at high levels and I want to ask my players to offer testimonials as to their vulnerability... lol
But how you pin down 17th level characters? They can teleport, pass throug walls, shape stone, turn ethereal, meld into earth...
@@tuomasronnberg5244 it depends on what kind of "pinning" you want, and of course your group makeup. Do you mean literally just how do you stop them from going somewhere you don't want them to? Most of the time, I don't, I just get excited at their cool abilities, and note that they burned some resources to pull it off. But there are spells that interact with many of those other options if you really need to build a place that shuts down some of their options.
Ultimately, if you're not trying to force them to engage in a certain way, you'll enjoy the game a lot more. It does require more flexibility, but the gameplay that comes from it can be very satisfying.
@@DM-Timothy Ah, I was interested how the OP did it, because to me it doesn't really sound possible without taking away character abilities (which is bad GMing)
@@tuomasronnberg5244 I'd caveat that people sometimes not being able to use their best tool because of in-world situations isn't bad DMing. Consistently taking away their abilities is, though, I can agree.
I'm guessing from his original posting that pinning down essentially just meant in that combat the PCs didn't have a lot of options for dealing with the 600' range from which the Erinyes were able to pluck shots off at the group while they tried to deal with the iron golem in their midst. Many groups would definitely have tools to work against that, but it's a pretty potent combo.
I honestly can’t wait to get to higher levels. It’s not that much fun watching my level 4 players get whooped by the big bad because of some poor decisions and bad dice roles.
Players are definitely more survivable at high levels!
I'm currently level 18 in the Dungeon of the Mad Mage. We get through our turns fast and it's a blast. 5E combat isn't slow, it just has slow players who don't know their character sheets and need to learn the rules.
"Vera the Mystical Monk, it's your turn!"
Action - She casts Haste
Bonus Action - She brings up her bladesong filling the air with a watery-metalic melody
Move - She moves 45 feet to Talis the Dragon Cultist.
Hasted Action - Vera superman punches her in the grill.
"Here's my to hit and damage all rolled at the same time to save time."
27 to hit for 9 bludgeoning damage. My AC is now 27 without a Shield reaction of course. I end my turn.
"Zog the Barbarian, its your turn!"
Snappy snappy people. Let's move! Let's move!😅
That seems like a skipping of most of the good bits of the combat (the descriptions & player chatter).
@@DBArtsCreators That's more description than 90 % of players give, please. Chit chat? Chit chat is for RP, why are you giving speeches in the middle of combat? Why are you taking 5 minutes and holding everyone up? Go learn your sheets and come back when you have learned it. Otherwise we are putting a timer on you. Stop being sloooooooow and booooooring.
@@DBArtsCreators maybe you like taking 20 minutes to finish a round but most of us dont. Here's a more detailed description. I gave the cliff notes because I didn't want to type twice.
#1 DnD combat isn't slow, you're slow.
I take at the most 1 minute to finish my turn. Learn your sheets. Think about what you're going to do when it's not your turn instead of playing on your phone.😅
Example:
Mystical Monk:
Vera spins her long sword in delicate archs that produce a watery-metalic melody - Bladesong Bonus action. AC is now 21
With her free hand she weaves glowing arcane symbols in the air as they break apart and swirl around her before being absorbed into her body. Vera casts Haste as her Action. AC now 23.
Vera dashes 45 feet, superman punches Talis the Dragon Cultist in her face and then she yells, "your heart is clouded by darkness, we bring the light!" Move + Hasted Attack Action
Then I roll my attack + my damage at the same time.
26 to hit for 9 bludgeoning.
Done! End of my turn!
Roleplaying + quick 1 minute turn combat. Do it!😊
@@DBArtsCreators Schooled
@@007ohboy
Not the end of your turn until the DM says it is, for one - they'd still be adding the results of what you are trying (because you don't get a say in whether or not what you try actually works). Never mind if the enemy (or enemies) has/have Reactions, Legendary Actions, Lair Actions, Readied Actions, or if there are environmental obstacles/hazards at play.
So, nah, I'd say you failed to do both combat and roleplay. You more seem to be trying to skip both to dictate what happens and skip the responses the world may have (unless there's only something like one basic enemy, likely not worth fighting or nor very interesting to fight. A shame if that's all your combats amount to).
Your cat has no respect for personal boundaries
Personal boundaries between me and my cats? That's crazy talk. lol
There is a lot of excellent advice here.
BUT.
I've just finished a 4 hour session that ran on to 6 hours in which our 5 player level 15 party completed 8 rounds of combat.
That's less than a minute of fighting and a session overrunning by two hours.
Good luck to the groups that can pull off a fun game at these levels.
And hats off to all the players and DMs with legendary resistance to tedium.
I doubt I shall ever sign up for another D&D campaign.
I seriously don't get groups like that unless it was a one shot where people didn't know their characters and powers? At the most....and I mean the most, it takes me 2 minutes to finish my turn. Most the time it's less than a minute. We can get through a whole round of combat in less than 5 minutes and describe in detail what our characters are doing and the game mechanic actions we are taking to do what we want. We are level 18.
I'm sorry your experience hasn't been the best. Was this an ongoing campaign that you've played up to level 15? Or something that started at that level?
How do you know high level play sucks? It's been my experience that high level play bogs down considerably--there is nothing in the monster manual that can even touch a 12th level party, much less a 20th, unless you're talking about an old school lich, but that drives to another point. Because at a certain point the only thing that can challenge a high level party is another high level party. That can be fun for a scenario or two. But then it becomes old hat. After level 12, players are grinding through experience points without fear of permanent death, absent something like a sphere of annihilation. That's really not that exciting.
As far as bogging down, every time someone has to look up a spell or a magic item, whether it's a player or a DM, the game stops in it's tracks, and there is no way anyone can keep all the particulars of all the spells in their spell list in their head. So looking up spells and adjudicating them at the table takes time--range, duration area of effect, okay so how does this actually translate to the battlefield? All of that takes time to the point where it takes 45 minutes to get through a single combat round. And this does not include all the other characters with all their special abilities and feats.
While I don't run 300 games a year, I have been doing this since 1982, and when I was much younger I ran characters into the 20th+ levels to the point where the characters might as well have been a pantheon of gods.
The furthest I take characters now is 12th level---at that point they retire to domains and we start with a new party, perhaps in lands or regions where the old characters had settled, turning their old characters into the quest givers. Players see how their characters have left deep foot prints in the world.
You've got me by a couple of years, I didn't start DMing till '96. :D
I don't use character creation rules for creating npcs, but my players definitely know they're in danger. The threat of death, even knowing there's opportunity to be revived, is a constant danger for players because they know they will have to sit out the rest of the encounter waiting for that resurrection, and no one likes being put in the corner. Certain players definitely do bog things down with meticulous thinking and planning, but there are ways to mitigate that, and players that grow up with their characters across a year or two of play tend to have a fairly comprehensive understanding of all but their most recently gained abilities.
Thanks for sharing your opinion. I don't share it, but that's alright. :)
How do I know high level games suck? Hm.... absurd monsters, multiverse, dealing with gods on a daily basis, flying, teleport... need I say more? Magic is an abomination it sucks the juice out of any world and leaves it a dry husk. So, yeah, I don't like playing or mastering above level 10.
Sounds boring to me. Did Drizzt stop at level 10? Eliminster? Do you even know who those people are? How familiar are you with the lore? Why would you play a game where you hate the much of the premise? Where is the respect?😅
A lot of players just lack focus and have short attention I think.
"I want to play a goblin archer."
"Im bored now. Now I want to play a Haregon Mage!"
"Ah man, we just started fighting midteir monsters like Fire Giants. I'm bored. Now I want to play a lizardman shawman."
It's like some DMs and PCs love baby parties where the biggest threat to them is a band of orcs or a few trolls. Have you even walked the plane of Baator and slashed your way through the Hells? You're missing out on so much epic stuff because it seems you like your world to be simple and small.
Open up, my man! I'm playing several high level adventurers and I'd say that where the real fun is. Who plays Skyrim and just quits after the first dungeon? 😅
Yeah sounds super boring. You’re missing half of the game.
No hate, but I think you would be better off with a more low fantasy and/or low magic system. It's just a different feel. I mostly prefer it myself!
To each their own, for sure! Playing D&D and disliking magic in the world are tough to reconcile in most settings. Whatever works for you and your table :)