Douglas Murray in debate with Flavia Kleiner
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
- This is an archive to preserve the historical record.
---
Flavia Kleiner is co-president and co-founder of the Swiss political movement Operation Libero. Her work focuses on the future of democracy, the rule of law, the current rise of right-wing populism and civil society engagement. Flavia is a member of the European Council on Foreign Relations (ECFR), and is among the Forbes “30 under 30”. She holds BA in contemporary history and law from the University of Fribourg and spent an exchange year at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.
---
Douglas Murray is an author and journalist based in Britain. A prolific debater, Murray has spoken on a variety of prominent platforms, including at the British and European Parliaments and the White House. His opponents have included Tariq Ramadan, Julian Assange, Rowan Williams and Anjem Choudary. He appears often on the top political debate programmes, including the BBC’s Newsnight, Daily Politics, This Week and Question Time. He has appeared on some of the most listened-to podcasts including Joe Rogan’s and ‘Waking Up’ with Sam Harris.
His latest publication, The Madness of Crowds was a bestseller and ‘book of the year’ for The Times and The Sunday Times.
His previous book, The Strange Death of Europe: Immigration, Identity, Islam, was published by Bloomsbury in May 2017. It spent almost 20 weeks on The Sunday Times bestseller list and was a Number 1 bestseller in non-fiction. It has subsequently been published in more than 20 languages worldwide and has been read and cited by politicians around the world. The Evening Standard described it as ‘By far the most compelling political book of the year.’ It was praised by, among others, Nick Cohen, Sir Roger Scruton, Clive James, Morrissey and Rabbi (Lord) Jonathan Sacks, who described it as ‘The most disturbing political book I’ve read this year. Based on travels through key European centres, Murray weaves a tale of uncontrolled immigration, failed multiculturalism, systemic self-doubt, cultural suicide and disingenuous political leadership. Accurate, insightful and devastating.’
Murray has been a contributor to The Spectator since 2000 and has been Associate Editor at the magazine since 2012. He has also written regularly for numerous other outlets including The Wall Street Journal, The Times, The Sunday Times, The Sun, The Evening Standard and The New Criterion. He is a regular contributor to National Review and has been a columnist for Standpoint magazine since its founding.
Born in 1979 his first book came out in 2000 while he was an undergraduate at Oxford. Since then he has published three more full-length books - on politics, history and current affairs - as well as shorter works on free speech and defence.
In 2007 he founded the Centre for Social Cohesion (CSC), the first think-tank in Britain to study extremism and terrorism. The CSC subsequently became part of the Henry Jackson Society, where Murray held the position of Associate Director from 2011 to 2018.
His first book Bosie: A biography of Lord Alfred Douglas (2000) was praised by Humphrey Carpenter in The Sunday Times as ‘One of the most impressive biographical debuts for some time. It comes across as entirely fresh.’ The book became a bestseller. The Sunday Telegraph described it as ‘A precocious feat by almost any standards… An excellent piece of work, intelligent and well-rounded. Douglas Murray is a remarkable young writer.’ The work won the 2001 Lambda award for gay biography.
In 2005 Murray published Neoconservatism, a history and defence of neoconservative thought. Reviewing the book in Asharq al-Awsat, Amir Taheri wrote ‘Whether one agrees with him or not Murray has made a valuable contribution to the global battle of ideas.’ On publication of the US edition (2006) Christopher Hitchens wrote of his review of Murray’s ‘masterly’ first book and his own review of it in the New York Review of Books: ‘There are not many occasions when a grizzled hack like myself can mark the emergence of a fresh new author who bears watching, but this was indubitably one of them.’ In praising Murray’s Neoconservatism book Hitchens noted that ‘It is highly encouraging to find someone youthful, defiant and principled who can both write and think at the same time.’
Dear Flavia, you have given my children a great gift. A priceless, one hour educational video, packed with all the things you can do to look stupid in a debate.
Amen.
🤣
I’d be honoured if Bad Old Uncle Douglas Murray knicked me only vase, NGL.
Murray is a force to be reckoned with. only fools tread him lightly.
Flavia needs have her ivory tower shattered and put her feet on terra firma. Scraping the sky with her nose will only look bloody in the mirror.
Okay. Warning you...this a full hour and 10 minutes of Douglas Murray being grateful he didn’t waste good money on a flight.
His response at around 30:04 is extremely savage. She called him a "fool" in her opening remarks though so.... yeah.
@@MrRocksW His concluding remarks were just as savage. A stupid child who has been indulged and protected from open debate, led by the chin. I suspect she doesn't even know how badly she performed.
Yeah it's a strange and baffling fact that our European neighbours just don't do this kind of thing very well. Same way they're rubbish at pop music.
Fee V - Thanks for the warning! :)
@@MrRocksW Dougie Fresh can be the most charming gentleman you ever did see one moment and then an absolutely ruthless savage the next.
You Brits should really be making better use of this legend while you've got him. If you ever manage to clone the man, we'll pay top dollar in the States to get one of our own.
Douglas Murray was a far too high calibre guest for this show, the moderator was poor and the opponent was a child - I feel bad for Douglas, seems like a complete waste of his time!
There was a moderator? Thought it was 2 on 1
@@watsongames5543 only 1 minute in and already know it's going to be 2 on 1 from the introduction "national parties (gotta make people associate conservatives with Hitler) for national sovereignty or the people who want unity for Europe"
She might as well have said the rapist versus the woman who respects autonomy- the emotional blackmail was so thic (unlike these skeletal monstrosities).
Did seem a bit amateurish
Maybe but it was fun watching him drag her to the academic whipping pole !
@@watsongames5543 Well 2 on 1 is fairly manageable for Douglas Murray. Usually when on the BBC they pit a panel of 3 or 4 against him
It’s strange how Flavia and the moderator were acting as if Murray was unfairly rude to her. In fact it was Flavia who was rude to Murray in her opening statement, Murray just called her out on her rudeness then owned her with facts. Making someone look foolish in a debate is not the same as just insulting someone.
They stand upon the idea that they should hold no accountability. It's just like a supremacist cult.
I think it was bc his comebacks were so good. 😎
Yeah it's actually unironically sexism. LMFAO when a woman insults a person with a soft spoken voice it comes across as less aggressive, simple minded people don't even realise whats being said, they just listen to how it sounds.
It's weird a Dutch person is so easily offended, we are supposed to be hella rude......these dumb cnts.
@@P4GYY it’s women in general, always the victim.
Strong and independent until she realised just how stupid she was being made to look
Flavia makes Switzerland look really bad. She was insulting, right off the bat, didn’t answer deep questions, and remained shallow.
Some of us know better than to judge an entire nation based on the performance of one of it's morons.
The Swiss value their soveignty extremely highly and they never joined the EU. And its pretty hard to become swiss even if you are born here. I think Flavia has a thing against the SVP and rather foolishly thinks this applies to Douglas, the UK and the rest of Europe!
'm kind of surprised. Flavia is making the point, that being a Swiss citizen has no meaning, no substance, no weight, no privilege? Is that really true? Kind of makes Switzerland the last place on earth I would want to move too and become a citizen of.
Very similar to what a populist would do... what a strange coincidence.
@@WaaDokuhow delicious. You missed the entire rebuttal to the empty vessel that is the 3rd wave feminist authoritarian you're white knighting for.
She isn't going to sleep with you
Rather unfair, having Douglas debate a child.
The biggest mismatch ive ever seen for Murray. For her sake, im just glad they had a moderator or it would have been cruel.
@@jonathanspencer4834 moderators seem to operate as establishment bodyguards rather than impartial referees. Just look at Chris Wallace white knighting for Biden at the presidential debate.
Yes, but then again, he was quite triggered by that child. He did come across very professional, to be honest, quite a shame as he's got good things to say.
@@peterkee354 Is there an election in the USA ?
True, daycare stuff - "travelling in pjs to Lisbon". What this poetry has to do with reality? Like there is no problem with large population not integrated with the society. White masai - pretty good movie how reality is different from dreamed perfect world.
Flavia is the type that takes nice bike rides through the middle east spreading peace and love.
Yep, just the kind who ends up raped and decapitated .
Oh, do give her ideas
She means well but has absolutely no understanding of the types of Threats truly exist in this world.
She wouldn't last 20 minutes on the south side of Chicago where I am from and her naivete would land her in an early grave if she ever had to deal with what myself and many others have in the Sandpit on the other side of the world.
Craving peace....is a wonderful concept in theory but sadly....there are people in this world who do not share those same ideals.
I wish I were wrong...but I know I am not....I have lived it and continue to do so.
@@warborn_inc. she doesn't mean well. I she's a useful idiot
yes and ends up headless
Moderator - 'Douglas was there anything in Flavia's speech that you would agree with?'
Douglas - 'There wasn't anything in it.'
😁
😂💣
Yep.
Yes, and that was not a very clever way to answer. It is always a way more efficient to pick one - perhaps silly - point and start from there.
I listened to the first four or five sentences and immediately recognized it for what it was.
Let me guess, she spent the next 12 minutes virtue signaling and impeaching the morality of anyone who would dare disagree with her virtue.
I'll never, know, for certain, because I skipped forward, but Douglas's response seems to indicate I was correct.
Legend has it Flavia is still in pain from this event, while also having learned nothing from it.
Flavia is in a little fantasy world.
I'm an American who has lived in Europe for years, for what it's worth. This is hard to view. It's like watching a distinguished, old-school professor debating a fanciful, bratty kid from high school (or Gymnasium, if you'd like). I didn't know anything about Flavia Kleiner before I viewed this exchange. She has made it clear that she doesn't understand populism with any kind of historical insight; that part was painfully obvious. But she has also let us know that she has never seriously read Vico (I'm thinking of the Italian rhetorician's focus on the constructed character of the institutions of our sociopolitical order), Tocqueville (I'm thinking of the problems over democracy vis-a-vis the majority), or Karl Mannheim (history vis-a-vis political ideologies). She has also clearly not read Frank Ankersmit, one of the top political thinkers in the Netherlands over the last 20-30 years. The question I am left with is this: what were the organizers of this debate thinking when they decided to invite these two?
Hi my friend. Your remarks are interesting. I think that as often, the organizers were simply trying to create a « safe space » for virtue signalers. They invited someone rather famous to bully in order to stress their point. They didn’t realize that they let a hungry lion enter a sheep enclosure. And they paid the price.
Thank god she doesn’t represent CH, which does it’s best to keep a strict and selective immigration (i am somehow involved in it).
well clearly they knrw so little about douglass that thought they'd be able to turn his brain to mush at the sight of a pretty blonde
well..
u :( ...
u are a ...
u are a faschist!!!
I think Flavia was a pal of the moderator. They seem to do similar work, and to have similar views.
Good for you that lived in the Europe. america is the most dangerous and terrible place, I had personal experience with your doctors, really more dangerous than serial killers, plus rob a lots of money for injury, death care sold out as health care!!!
"What is especially disturbing about the political left is that they seem to have no sense of the tragedy of the human condition. Instead, they tend to see the problems of the world as due to other people not being as wise or as noble as themselves."
-Thomas Sowell
A most excellent and apt quotation. thank you for sharing that. I'll remember it.
it's a form of Narcissism. They can't see that they are what they despise. To them, right wing tyranny is evil, but Left wing tyranny is not tyranny , it's just forcing the ignorant majority to obey for their own good.
Flavia is no Lefty . She's some sort of weird Neoliberal Authoritarian . DM is more of a Classic Liberal than she is !
Let's add to that Jordan Peterson's insight that Leftists don't really love and grieve for all humankind; rather they profess their positions because they hate people in general.
I'm sorry but Flavia isn't the left, she is a neoliberal 1% Brussels-Frankfurt-DC representative.
I can't stop laughing. This empty headed ideologue picked a fight with exactly the wrong guy.
I felt she was way out of her depth against Douglas, and I think his withering responses to her rudeness/smugness were appropriate.
not withering at all@@maxbowie6074
What are they even arguing about? they should talk to each other at the table instead so they can answer each other more often.
Thank god for people like Douglas Murray. He’s the intellectual real world antidote to the childish naivety wish list dreamers who, like Flavia, seem unaware of complex systems and the consequences they bring when they just want to tear them down.
They are children, with a child's conception of the world.
Nothing more dangerous than Germanic Idealism! Achtung!.. have a nice day...or ELSE!!
I hate this "people like x" argument. What specifically did she say that you disagreed with? What makes you so certain she's unaware of complex systems? Also, what does complexity have to do with anything?
@Richard Horrocks This young woman is no dreamer. She is the established, elite orthodoxy of our time; coddled, privileged in every conceivable way. Her weak if not delusional attempt at manipulation she called an address, completely dropped the ball for her team. She should never been in the ring with Murray; totally outclassed and punching above her weight. That she thought she could score with that pomposity of a speech, only underscored her coddled narcissism. Dreamer? No mate. A young princess transported from the court at Versailles. Long live the 👑!
(But she was quite pretty...you must give her that).
@Richard Horrocks Cheers mate...l think I know where you were going. But she really got under my skin. And your right...never (NEVER) EVER...get in the ring with Douglass Murray. If you're going to take a bloody run at him, that is. "He's a wreckin MACHINE Rock!"
Burgess Meredith to Sly Stallone:
ROCKY
20 secs into her speech and i'm thinking this isnt going to end well for her
I am a Swiss citizen and I am totally ashamed that it seems Flavia represents Switzerland. She is not representing Switzerland at all. The Swiss in majority are not in favour for the current idea of Europe. Why therefore is she discussing this on an international level? This is her personal view and she has no right at all to speak up for Switzerland. And the way she attacked Douglas: I, for Switzerland, do apologize!! Salutations to Douglas. Well done.
Thank goodness... She certainly desicrated your country and put herself to shame... and reacted like a thorough brat... without the slightest idea that all she did was flap her gums and spew extreme ignorance, immaturity, fluff and narcissism ... she was disgraceful!! So pathetic, I think she thought she did well...
Dear God! That girls speech. How naive. Doesn’t seem to know the first thing about Douglas Murray either.
Yeah, but institutions!
If Europe is led by naive fools like this girl, they are absolutely doomed.
When you grow up in "safe spaces" you don't get much exposure to folks like Douglas.
"Someone too cowardly to appear in a debate in person"
...that would be because the rules on quarantine and travel were created by the very institutions you claim to love and obey, Flavia.
I got absolutely nothing out of this.
And I suspect Douglas got even less.
logicmanX .....not even a witty put-down from the other side
I quite enjoyed hearing Douglas coming out fighting even though his rude opponent was not up to his caliber 😂
I hope he was paid.
DM was clearly very annoyed, I don't see why he couldn't have made his speech from home. Seems strange.
Yeah, but Douglas is always worth hearing.
It is to Murray’s credit - and a reflection of his good manners - that he didn’t turn off his computer during Flavia’s ‘speech.’
It's a hallmark of most leftist liberals that they have no respect for those they debate. They generally insult and mock their opponents and make personal jibes rather than addressing the actual arguments. And of course when this doesn't work, they cry and scream for opposing views to be censored and the person cancelled. We see it all the time.
Agreed
@ The big problem is leftist liberals is they believe that if you don't share their beliefs, you are a bad person, as opposed to someone with different ideas on how to solve certain problems. Which is as illiberal as it gets.
@Scott Johnston Heh, must admit I was getting unpleasant echoes of the inestimable Spectre whilst listening to young Flavia prattle on!
He provided a good lesson on how to be graceful while biting back.
"Right-wing populists like Douglas Murray . . ." Wow. That anyone should show up to a debate with so little clue as to who they're dealing with. She REALLY earned this drubbing.
Flavia proves herself to be an able modern politician never answering a single question, never engaging in the debate, only pushing out the messages she wants regardless of what is asked of her. I wouldn't be surprised to find her heading the EU Commission in a few decades. What horrid times those will be...
I highly doubt she`ll ever lead any EU commission. The Swiss are staunchly opposed to joining the EU.
Well said!
For the first time ever I simply had to stop watching a video with Douglas Murray. The problem with people like Flavia is they`re never around to take responsibility for when it all goes pear shape. From Charlie Hebdo to the Manchester bombings to Rotherham to voter fraud in Tower Hamlets, they shrug their shoulders and spout the same pious platitudes, they really are quite tiresome.
"The problem with people like Flavia is they`re never around to take responsibility for when it all goes pear shape." - always the case, middle-class women do not bear the front-line consequences, it's left to men, usually working class, to be sent in as cannon fodder to fix the mess.
terence strugnell. Yes first time for me too. Painful to watch
They are also dangerous.
@@alisonrogerson3143 Very dangerous and nieve. The problem throughout europe are attitudes like this. Just a PR for the extreme right.
@@lasttango7522 it’s you who is naive. Douglas Murray is certainly not extreme. Why don’t you read his books? If that clueless woman represents the left then God help them! Socialism has only ever lead to mass murder. You only need to read about Stalin. The lefties have had their day
Flavia is the AOC of Switzerland.
😂😂
Well half of her lol
That would be giving AOC way too much credit. This was like debating a middle schooler. Debating AOC would be akin to debating a kindergartner #TippyTop
Sadly, Flavia speaks more like Joe "soul of the nation" Biden. AOC at least has content to her speeches, which you can disagree with and debate. You can't debate a meaningless poem.
OMG, she’s so naive, she has a child’s perception of the world, no grasp of reality
"I want... I want... I want... I want... me... me... me..."
she thinks the whole world is about chasing butterflies and picking strawberries ... she is a very silly little girlie who really needs to grow up
Douglas opens by describing how doughy-eyed bureaucrats are living in candyland and kicking the can down the road on serious issues, and Flavia responds by... giving a doughy-eyed speech on how great candyland is.
And these are the coming generation of European leaders?? Be very scared.
I am an American and very familiar with the work on Douglas Murray. I'm floored with how childlike Flavia seems to be. She isn't discussing anything other than her feelings and emotions.
The way her insults ricocheted back at her but with a 2x combo effect, and also clean without any rude words from Douglas is a form of art.
Because any half insightful person knows you do not actually need to use insults to insult someone.
Best way to do is to let them just make themselves look like fools.
@tubetorpedo5867 even better you dress the. Down and elegantly tell the. The truth. That they annot accomplish anything because they aren't smart enough or intelligent enough. She is a victim. But of no one but her own shortcomings
Douglas Murray's smackdowns remind me of the late great Christopher Hitchens
The moderator really dropped the ball. Of course, she should have asked both Flavia and Douglas to deliver opening statements before facilitating conversation or questions. This wasn’t a debate at all. And Murray was absolutely right to respond the way he did. Bravo, Douglas.
She seems like she doesn’t understand how life is in the real world
Middle-class + women = completely detatched from reality.
ross from britain well
said sir
She's never been in the real world,in fact I'd go as far as to say,why is she interfering with this planet, when it's blatantly obvious, SHE'S from a different one!!👍
@@design7054 she hardly classifies as middle class. If you've been to Switzerland or know people from there, you know how filthy RICH they are. A salesman there in a mall earns as much as an engineer in Germany, where I live. It's crazy. Their "middle class" is high class anywhere else.
Oh I think she does. That's why she says what she does.
Douglass Murray is a treasure. Both Strange death of Europe and Madness of crowds are insightful and on point.
un academic drivel
Flavia is more concerned with a speeding motorist without a Swiss passport getting expelled from Switzerland than she is with the real concerns raised by Douglas. This is the problem with liberals.
She isn't a liberal. That's what a lot of people don't understand. She's got a left-wing, ideologically perverted "liberal" view that has nothing to do with what liberalism stands for, while at the same time lacking any kind of knowledge, experience or even common sense. I watched a 70 minutes video and all she did was attacking the person Murray and not his ideas. That's just bad behavior. That's it.
And I bet she knows her gender pronouns too!
FugelKusch
Very true. Left wing ideology posing as liberalism. A wolf in sheep's clothing.
@@fugelkusch3722 its incredible how hayek and many others noted this long ago and people still call them liberals. That shows how the left dominates the culture.
Her tribal affiliation and interests cannot be ignored and is the seething subtext
O Douglas, your finishing statement was brutal. Even this dull audience couldn't resist an applause.
I feel badly for the young woman, who clearly has not lived & worked in the real world for long enough to understand the consequences of the policies she supports. She strikes me as extremely privileged, which ironically has insulated her from both constructive criticism of her bad ideas as well as consequences for her mistakes. Sadly, there will be consequences to the majority of people for what she's advocating. Another irony is that the people she's insisting that the native Swiss must welcome with open arms would like to transform her Switzerland into a highly illiberal place where she's no longer free & is the property of a man
Yes.,..... Switzerland will become Swaziland.
She has probably never been made accountable in her life. Well she was this time.
conservatives are afraid to actually make an argument, all they do is insult
Yes she’s simply not in touch with today’s reality, she’s obviously just been in a flowery world all her life and she stands by what ever she learned or is teaching at university.
@@matt-f1c very true... and profoundly unfortunate. She's certainly very narcissistic... incapable of respectful dialogue... and, from the beginning of her speech, fluffing on about pyjamas and oranges... I could tell she probably has a daily journal, and activately searches for a clever new word for the day ... consciously determined to awe anyone who listens to her into believing she's "special"...
... should NEVER have been invited to speak on an international forum. What a joke!
Listening to Flavia was quite painful. The relentless kumbaya and naivety is far too much to take for any developed and reasoned mind.
I'm not surprised she got tired and quit. When you hold views which cannot be supported other than by emotion it must be draining. She should have put the burden down, saved Switzerland all the bother and found peace in the objective and practical facts that we can all rest on.
Flavia's speech was utter cringe. May as well have been a slam poetry session.
Please don't insult slam poetry like that! Flavia is a complete and utter moron!
I really couldn't fathom what she was talking about.
She said no.more raves on solar panelled house boats lol 😆 as if its a super common thing to be doing.
Eating an orange on the train to Lisbon? How dare she cursing in her own church !!! You know how much CO2 was spilled bringing that orange to Europe??? Better care for the environment and eat local fruits ...
Flavias speech sounds like the usual drivel from PR-agencies working for the „institutions“. Read Varoufakis book Adults in the room, then you know what these institutions really do. They use girls like flavia, because they mellow your defences. What they do is sexist.
"He's talking all the time"... That's because he actually has something to say, dear!
@krugerjnr : AND, unlike his Swiss opponent, plenty of us want to hear what Douglas Murray has to say!👨⚖️🇺🇲🇬🇧👩💼
Yes, the cheek of that comment when her opening speech dragged on forever and she outspoke him 2/1.
But it was literally the first time he interrupted her, so how can she insinuate that he’d kept interrupting her? It’s her victim mindset, even the moderator conformed to it and started defending her.
This child doesn't understand how life is in the real world !
I lived and worked in Switzerland, to build an organization to counter "populism" in Switzerland is absurd on its face. I have never been to a country (and I lived in the US as well) with such a lively, calm and collected culture of accepting the fact that people have different opinions and political views as I did in Switzerland. What she does is like declaring to fight sex amongst monks.
Radical liberal swiss people are the definition of first world problems. They don’t deserve what they have. They don’t even recognize what they have.
Flavia comes from one of the richest most exclusive countries in the world and preaches to the European countries many of which are poor and have been inundated by hordes of immigrants and refugees. Coming from struggling Greece myself I find her stance hypocritical and naive.
A free thinker versus a mere purveyor of leftist word salad. Only one winner.
The audience won here also
"Only fools and Douglas Murray" was a cheap shot. Murray is far deeper thinker. I'm afraid Flavia Kleiner is just another arrogant liberal.
But she’s not liberal, that’s the whole point. Douglas is far more liberal, in the sense of British Liberalism, than she is.
You forgot to mention 'ignorant' and 'naive'.
Well, she didn't call him a fool.
@J and M It wasn't a great move from her side, definitely, but his reaction was over the top. A mature mind would have mentioned it once and then engaged in the discussion without again and again mentioning how hurt his feelings were.
@@carlosmelo5211 Stupid pedants can't even recognize when they're being insulted.
She should be embarrassed but she is so full of her own importance in her world she probably thinks she won that.
No doubt her handlers are telling her just that as we speak...
Indeed, she actually claimed she won 'five rounds against populism'. The crass narcissism in these people borders derangement, who let them near a microphone?
“A tiny campaign in a tiny country”
That cut like a samurai sword.
It was a painful and brilliant line, but its the only slip by Douglas, i would have said "a tiny campaing in YOUR country"
No need to belittle Switzerland as an irrelevant country.
Douglas is a Master, a genius.
Holy shit his response. He absolutely savaged her. Someone call the police I'm witnessing a murder.
Ja ja ja a murder
Douglas's argument was "please don't keep making a fool of yourself" and Flavia's was "I have the right to do what I what."
Douglas is far to intellectual for Flavia he literally wiped the floor with her.
Literally?
In typical leftist style she plays the man rather than the ball. Flavia talks of individual freedom and opportunity with no cognisance of how the European Union pushes group identity at the expense of the individual. Intellectually she is out of her depth debating Douglas.
AND.....all the while being part of a country that is not in the EU.
Well said. Quite the targeting error on her part, and the audience didn't let her get away with it.
Her key misunderstanding is something she betrays when she mistakes that liberalism is about "individual wellbeing" instead of the truth of liberalism being about "individual liberty", property rights, etc.
I can't tell if she's actually a socialist, or just a female.
“So, no. There wasn’t very much to pick up on other than the ill spoken, ill lettered, and rude attempts to attack me. And I’m sorry about that because I think that it demonstrates her own personal failing as much as it does a failing of the cause that she would like to lead before she ‘got tired’ and decided to get out.”
She deserved that ROAST
That kinda summed up the whole debate :)
1. She insults. Gets called out for this by Douglas Murray. An audience member decides to chastise them both.
2. She gets to do a speech about her wants (as spoiled children do) yet Murray has a speech and is not allowed to give it. So this was not a debate from the start. It was a monologue of wants from a needy child.
3. And yes. She called him a fool by first calling all of us who are conservative, proud of our home nations and for wanting to be sovereign (for which our Ancestors died in 2 world wars for) - fools. Then added his name thereafter. Should I accept she does not understand the inference of his name placed after fools, as her first language is not English or not? I will not accept it. She called him a fool by that placement as that is what she thinks of anyone who disagrees with her childish views on the world.
4. She refers to the wars and how liberal people fought for freedoms. Yet she does not realise that those same people believed in sovereignty and freedom and were people like us 'conservatives' who love their nations. In other words her classification being populists lol!.
I've never seen him on the attack like this. It was incredible to witness and you get the feeling that it was entirely because she made it personal. And he stripped her down and showed her for the juvenile that she is.
Even guys like Douglas actually have a temper it seems 😁
@@ivarrouk6708 I wouldn't call that a temper. I believe that is the appropriate way to manifest the ideal of "treat others how you want to be treated." He was not upset or angry, he didn't raise his voice or call her names, he simply showed her that if she wanted to be an asshole, he can be an asshole too. Integration of shadow, if you will. One errs on the side of kindness and respect until another shows that they are not acting in a way that earns that kindness and respect. As we saw in this debate.
I think he was a bit tough and it took away from the debate. He should know by now these people don’t care for decorum and instead of calling them out for it you should just take the higher ground. But I understand and agree with him for being angry. It’s just common decency for academics/intellectuals/political commentators to at least be familiar with the other person work before going on a program with them. And the fact that she obviously couldn’t be bothered to take the few hours necessary to do that is a huge insult
If you enjoyed this, you will love him demolishing Malcolm Gladwell in a more recent Munk Debate.
Douglas demolition of clowns is legendary….this was a straight forward easy one….most other victims are a little smarter than this snow flake.
Wow . I just ‘Loved’ the 13 year old’s diary entry poetry at the start!!!
LOL, how true.
I've just finished watching her opening and couldn't look at the screen for most of it, the cringe was unreal. Then I came to the comments and as expected, this is going to be another "debate" where Douglas intellectually dismantles a naive ideologue
Well, that makes one of us...
@@TheNewAllotmenteer au contraire mon frère ;)
Oh yes I know I know Mummy, the world is just one big lovely family full of cuddles and laughter sprinkled with rainbows
Here’s the summary: She gave an ideological political speech. Douglas Murray gave an analytical scientific summary using facts and figures. Choose your player.
Im having a hard time choosing. Who has more privilege? The gay or the wahman? I need to know so that I can use my victimhood points to complain and take tax payers money the fastest. This is tough.
@@umpteenexpression530 Douglas Murray has never used his sexuality to play the victim. Actually, I don't think He has great fondness for those who play the victim.
@@umpteenexpression530 ignoramous, Murray never uses his sexuality and frequently criticises those who do
Being a Swiss national myself I can assure all viewers and readers that 'Operation Libero' is a highly overrated organisation, which jumps on the bandwagon whenever convenient, when it is already almost certain, that their political camp is going to win a referendum. As for Flavia's speech, I am embarrassed for my compatriot. To quote Jordan Peterson: "It is this kind of low resolution thinking, which gets us absolutely nowhere."
Schön zu sehen das es schweizer gibt, die gleich denken wie ich
@@Schofbock1 yes, agreed - there are indeed a few who we can consider fellow thinkers in Switzerland … and I wish I could say the same about my mother who lives there… but alas.. I am still a conspiracy theorist in her eyes, with which she only watches Swiss and German TV and mainstream-media talk shows and no independent media at all
@Prasanth Thomas Yes, there is. We’ve had enough of these airheads.
She started her speech talking about the only guns she wants to see is in the hands of the state. Then later went on to quote Thomas Jefferson. The audacity of this dense woman.
As well she said she only wants to see arm in the hands of trained military. Coming from switzerland where every man has to join the military…
oh god, this woman's speech.... "i want rainbows and unicorns"
Just make sure those unicorns poop cupcakes or there will be tears
Don’t forget puppies
And carpets. Lots of carpets.
God forbid there’s any reason in life in the modern society where you may need a gun to defend yourself. Oh wait she wants a utopia nevermind. No such thing as crime or times of tribulations.
And it is SOOO worrying opinions like this are getting a lot of support. We already see that in Canada New Zeland and Australia - and of course in USA. We are losing - we need to get better.
Flavia: *insults douglas
Douglas: *so you have chosen death
Lost count of the number of times she said “Right wing populist”. Glad Douglas pointed out that her entire argument seemed to be based of the idea that anything she didn’t agree with was just right wing populism. Unfortunately the moderator didn’t allow a response.
Exactly
Im from Spain, I thought the same thing you did.
The spanish lef are more fond of these false labels to satanize anyone who dares to dissent:
"Nazi, fascist, extremist, ultra, homophobic, racist, xenofobe, intolerant, selfish etc"
Its incredible!!!
God damn Douglas. Your response to her "essay" is phenomenal. Keep it up
he came accross as very emotional
@@AC-mp7cx You forgot the letter "s" in front of "he" :)
@@cristibcristib5436 nope lol
It's astounding that with a straight face she twice said that non-citizens should not be evicted from the country for repeated law breaking.
Children of immigrants deported for speeding. Of course douglas murray fans are insane racist authoritarians. Oh well
@@olo_smooth_olo5606 Can you give even one example of that happening or are you talking out of your ass?
@@olo_smooth_olo5606 yes, we do like our laws. If they break the laws why should these illegals stay? Race has nothing yo do with it, are you saying only the White Swiss can follow the laws? 😂😂
Your accusation of racism in 2023 means nothing . Much like Flavia and her beliefs.
She was talking about speeding tickets. If course it would've been great to hear more, but Douglas Murray didn't press her on that.
@@al67849 "In 45% of fatal crashes, the drivers of passenger vehicles were engaged in at least one of the following risky behaviors: speeding, alcohol impairment, or not wearing a seat belt."
US Data.
Flavia is a naïve child. Douglas is one of our time's leading intellectual. This was a slaughter of a debate.
That was painful. I miss the days when we could simply label people as morons and be done with it
Yep. :(
That's exactly what she does. She labels Douglas as moron.
Absolutely! Its a waste of time to discuss complex cultural question with idiots.
Like Flavia labeling Douglas a fool and expecting to be done with it? I doubt those days ever existed in functional democracies. Perhaps you're referring to the failing ones where the "fools" were put to death with no elaboration on their supposed crimes.
She is worse than a moron. A moron can't help themselves and may be very good hearted and have common sense. She is neither.
Waaay out of her league... I paused the video at the conclusion of Miss Kleiner's flippant opener, ran to the kitchen to grab a nibble and nice cup of tea, and settled in to relish Mr. Murray's lethal riposte.
And it was great!
Lol.
Yeah. If I was a memer, I'd have superimposed the GTA "WASTED" over her face.
Flavias speech was f..ink hilarious who wrote it? Walt f..ink Dysney? Or Tinkerbell?😂😂😂
When Flavia states there's only one place that values those freedoms, you have to ask why that place isn't successfully exporting such ideals to everywhere else if they're so great, and the answer of course is there's countless places that don't want them, but are happy to bring 'smaller' ideas here. By the way, Flavia, in case you hadn't noticed, there's this rather large place called North America that also cherishes freedom.
The thinking level of people like Flavia makes me want to cry, or tear my hair out. Both.
This is what comes out of our universities...
Too stupid to save their own lives. Cockroaches have higher iqs. At least they run away from danger. Flavia invites the danger for fondue, bc of... rights, you know, and electrolites
Oh muh climate change hurts so much today. Everyone should stop breathing in order to save the planet!
The US seems like an absolute mess... at least looking at it from the outside. Wouldn't call that freedom.
@@bodo887 Its no better in the rest of the white world
@@bodo887 It's a war zone, but so is the rest of the planet. The US has some idea of the value of freedom, but most of those running the country no longer want it.
Order vs freedom.
Flavia showed herself to be naively childish - full of hollow platitudes and round eyed idealism. All well and good, but she lacks the gritty insights and depth which a more profound thinker would have brought to this discussion. Unfortunately a very weak choice of opponent for the much more grown-up and formidable Mr Murray.
She is nothing more than a mouthpiece for the ideology which she has attached herself to. You know her point of view before shes even spoken. No original thought - vacuous.
A shame as we got nowhere
Millions died to create the Europe this idiot is prepared to give away to the rest of the world. Oh, hang on, she's Swiss, they didn't do any fighting at all, did they. 🤦♂️
she claims the ides of nationalists are old and out of date, but her ideas of what nationalism is all about is equally out of date.
Black Philip
She's certainly dangerous but I think it stems from that femalecentric emotional view of the world we see displayed by so many childless female politicians, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", as the old saying goes.
Good call Jonathan
@@mesolithicman164 no, they kept the nazis ' gold safe.
Well she finally did identify a liberal institution. It's the carpet!
Possibly my favourite bit of surrealist absurdity in the whole train wreck...
HAHAHAHA!
this carpet was woven by John Locke himself
lolol
Wow. That "keynote speech" sounded like a high-school essay!
If she were 14 years old I would give a C for effort
I'm surprised at how transcendent bad writing is.
I heard her childish speech, and it reminded me of things I heard in junior high. In the 80's.
It reminds me a bit of that bit in Ms World where they used ask the contestants their three wishes.
Stunned by her arrogance, when Douglas talks about the lack of democracy and accountability in eu she doesn't even acknowledge that there are problems there but she says that people concerned should receive political education. She would be great in north Korea
She's swiss. Switzerland isn't part of the EU. So she of all people should understand why Britiain left. They are the same reasons why Switzerland never joined!
Nothing to add, you guys did a great job in the comments section 👏🏾
this was like douglas murray debating greta thunberg.
May as well of been. In fact that would have at least been entertaining!
Greta: How dare you!
Douglas: How dare I what, exactly?
@PISTOL PETE Greta 0.5 is more like it
@@Cardinal7477 how dare you..
one of the rare occasions where I feel like I have to defend greta: she is an intellectual giant compared to flavia.
@@chrismai1889 , ok, I would say both are very well built NPCs, and Greta is probably a more advanced version, because she's younger/newer model. So yes, you are probably right.
Murray is the heir to Hitchens
Jason Mizak ..... true (and I love him) but Hitch would have dismissed her casually with a couple of pithy one-liners.....
Christopher Hitchens was in his core an atheistic classical liberal. Ultimately he is materialistic and would be rather ineffective against globalhomo. I hope and believe Murray is different
Absolutely! That however was literally running onto an elite debaters machine gun nest! Douglas is pure class.
@@waynechen852 While I see your point, I must say that Hitchens did point to Clinton corruption quite effectively thus siding against globalism (making him at least somewhat useful in the populism versus globism debate) but even then when in similar situations to Douglas Murray he did tend to the Ben Shapiro style one liners like "facts don't care about your feelings" so his functionality is likewise limited. I'm not saying he would be as good or useful as Douglas Murray but having both of them would definitely be a good thing.
@@peterkee354 Yeah I think you're right. Hitch would certainly rage against post- modernism so will do a lot of good, however I am worried that he would gate-keep, something even Murray is doing just a little bit. Also unless he soften his stance on Christianity, he lacks the crucial hard counter to post- Modernism. Anyway he is no longer with us, may he rest in peace.
This is not a “debate”. It’s a train wreck! Someone of Douglas Murray’s stature and accomplishment should never have been matched with Flavia Kleiner.
LMAO Within the first minute of Douglas’ rebuttal to Flavia’s speech she was OWNED. Dear lord that was BRUTAL.
Poor little Flavia received a lesson she will never forget but i fear she will not learn from..
Absolutely no way she learned. Look her up. She is young and part of a Swiss political dynasty. She doesn't come off as intelligent or wise because she got where she was by nepotism and classism.
The strange death of a debate.
Seeing that Flavia holds a bachelor in contemporary history, I think a Jordan Peterson quote is in order: "read more".
Yep.
Seriously? A history degree?
@@fainitesbarley2245 yeah..
Douglas opens by describing how doughy-eyed bureaucrats are living in candyland and kicking the can down the road on serious issues, and Flavia responds by... giving a doughy-eyed speech on how great candyland is.
....And kicking the can down the road. For example when asked if there is any legitimate reason to be against migration she just said its always been around and its a complex issue. She didn't actually really answer any questions...
The audience were so embarrassed for her that none of them could ask a question 😂
1:00:43 For those who didn't get that far, she criticizes DM for not having prepared a rehearsed monologue like she did. Lol
I would invite anyone to come visit my city with 23 languages and a 73 percent crime rate. It’s awesome
Ouch. Never insult Douglas Murray in a debate. He really let her have it, more so than other opponents he's debated.
True.. Most of his opponents do their research first and he knew she didnt do any.
It's generally never safe for women to insult gay men. They don't have the verbal restraint straight men have, which we develop as a side-effect of trying to get into her pants.
@@montycantsin8861 That's a fascinating insight, I never thought about it that way, but I think you nailed it! (No pun intended)
I've noticed this difference before, but I never understood why.
@@zxyatiywariii8 there's also the problem gay men have as boys. All us straight men had a rough moment, at least once in our youth, of a fight with another kid, and had to encounter how to deal with violence. Most gay boys are a) rare, so not able to summon "backup" and b) a target, because there's alway some guys who pick on them because they're gay.
Some gay boys just say "fuck it" and fight back the only way they can, so they develop really sharp wit and verbal self-defense, relying on the bad optics the bully falls into, which is a form of social self-defense, not unlike what the girls do.
@@montycantsin8861 another excellent point sir
This was an example of why children should never be allowed out without adult supervision. Douglas must have been sitting there thinking "Where are the adults?"
There were a number of contradictions in Klein's wish list, most glaring,for me, is how Europe stays 'progressive' and 'modern' while allowing millions of regressive religious zealots into European society. The two factions are like oil and water. Does she think all these Islamists are going to become liberal atheists over night? or ever?
Exactly the same thought I was having. I think it's a fear of being authoritative when necessary and/or naivety in the fact that people have the capacity to do great evil and take advantage of 'liberal values' where they see fit.
I didn’t get the impression that she even had sufficient intellectual capacity to consider the possibility, never mind analyse it...
In the Strange Death of Europe Murray puts the question "Can Europe remain the same place with different people in it?" This is what worries him and what he wants us to think about. His critics are failing to do this.
Indeed
She doesnt have the capacity to understand this, or she doesnt care. Like all Swiss left wingers. They are today feeding the hand that will bludgeon them to death tomorrow.
This is one of the funniest things I've ever seen. Never heard of Douglas Murray before, now I'm obsessed.
Ja ja ja, im from Spain, i've heard of him since around 2015, and after this video im also obsessed and hooked.
I absolutely agree... I'm now searching wherever I can to find more from him as I just couldn't get enough... The man is EXCEPTIONAL!!
This is unfair.
Have an intellectual giant like Douglas debate an intellectual midget or a child like Flavia
I guess it's to the credit of our forebearers that they created societies so safe and secure that a person like Flavia hasn't been confronted with the horrors of life and reality.
She didn’t answer the last question - she didn’t answer any questions
Mr Murray is the best! I can't help but laugh at how awesomely he schools this child...
Flavia's initial speech... sounds like the thinking of a 10 year old 😅
And, I love - just love - Douglas being perfectly politely sarcastic.
Ha ha. This lady is simply not in DM’s league. A total embarrassment!
She is talking from UTOPIA, thank goodness for Brexit.
yeah when we get it - if we ever get it ...
The EU fears us on their doorstep. We should fear them if this naive worldview informs political thinking on the continent. We already see their unwillingness to protect their own borders.
Hallelujah, hopefully Boris grows a pair for a clean break and leaps into free trade agreements with the rest of the NON-TOTALITARIAN globe.......
@@booth2710 Boris is waiting for the U.S. election to be over, I think.
Trump would be an ally, but Biden would side with the E.U.
Flavia Kleiner's ignorance is painful to endure. Samuel Paty was beheaded this week, am curious if Flavia can understand that Paty too may have had dream of being at home in this continent without having to worry about his head being chopped, by people remote from any circle Flavia ever finds herself in, but very much present and capable of putting an end to dreams of others.
She doesn't give a f*ck what happens to others as long as she can sit in her pajamas on a train! I really despair at what has happened to western women.
@@stevesproul1627 I wouldn't sit on a train in my pyjamas in modern Europe.
@@stevesproul1627 Don't ever think she's representative of all European/ western women, please! 😂
Her keynote speech sounds like a pampered princess --
_"I want to drink vignot verde in Lisbon. . . "_
I don't even know what vignot verde is, which she wants to drink in her "leopard print pajamas" as she romps about Europe with the blind entitlement of a teenage princess.
She wouldn't last a night in my childhood neighborhood.
@Carl Mannerheim wow do you have a source for that, it never came to my notice?
Liberal/feminists are very good with stories or utopian ideas. Unfortunately, their ideas are limited to pre-written speaches. Reminds me of Greta.
Why was Douglass not given the chance to make his speech??
He used his turn to insult Flavia.
That girl did the same before hand @@al67849
Flavia is painfully naiive. How is such a great mind like Murray “debating” this child. What a waste.
This is all quite fascinating.
Europe's ancestors created a society, at great cost of many great wars, that is the envy of much of the world.
Africa's ancestors created a world where most everyone wants to leave and move to Europe.
Europe's leaders seem to believe that they can only be morally correct if they accept all of Africa's peoples and then replace all of the principles European society with the principles of African society.
How can the leaders of a mechanism that works not recognize that replacing it with a mechanism that doesn't work is absolute madness?
Because Leftists often govern with thier heart (emotion/feel good) rather than their Reason.
It feels nice, to say "Let's bring 1,000,000 poor Somalis into England this year."
Reason and logic override such ego patting nonsense, but reason and logic aren't currently fashionable.
Read Murrays Strange Death of Europe, he goes into much more depth as to why, Briton keeps guikt shaming itself into increasing immigraton. It partially plays on the Christian ethos of forgiveness and lovingkindness but Murray makes a good claim that its a fools errand.
Audiobook is here free on RUclips.
Because Progressivism never was about making a better world or society. It was a tool about using it as leverage to gain more power for the individual and tribe through political shaming and forming cohesive tribes within the political system.
@@jordanmarshall9160
Leftist politicians don’t have a heart. They know how evil their actions are.
I'm glad Douglas did this, sometimes it's important to debate and therefore expose those not so practiced in deception.
Drinking rules: drink each time Flavia says "righting populists".
Jesus Christ, the start of Douglas’ rebuttal was brutal.
This lady was very very proud of her self to insult this guy but didn’t like it to much to get it back.
..which is standard leftcollectivist practice .. tactic -
That was embarrasing. Douglas Murray is a very patient person and I saw the fury in him. He needed to push back on this projecting Flavia-dreamer who sounds like a lot of politicians i my country, Sweden. They will destroy our countries.
Apart from Poland and Hungary of course.
If people ever ask me (for the millionth time) why I voted for Brexit, I will direct them to this train wreck of a debate, and say to get away from the clutches of fools like Flavia...
@@TheNewAllotmenteer her country is not in the EU.
Hopefully we don't have to try and win the title of country with the highest amount of grenade attacks in the world to prove them wrong.
@@NPC-st7zv I am aware her country is not in the EU (having previously lived but 30 miles from the German/Swiss border) though the borders are broadly open between nations with extensive freedom of movement and a high degree of integration of transportation & infrastructure between Switzerland and the surrounding EU nations. I am always particularly perplexed by attitudes of Swiss folk like Flavia in support of the EU, as their centralised brand of authoritarian governance are all but incompatible with the highly devolved, referendum-based local governance of the Swiss cantons. The naivety she showed relating to this was quite shocking.
Navia is a great politician. She talks a lot and says virtually nothing.
Yep... Word salad. But also dictatorial.
Quite clearly she was hoping for this to end quickly 😂😂😂
Douglas Murray and Jordan Peterson to remain calm while being insulted and labelled with ridiculous names is something very admirable.