Morning to ya fellow submariner! As a former chief of the watch, I remember an incident with us and a large merchant. Sonar had the contact but was reporting it at least 5 times farther away than it was actually. It's course was exactly 90 degrees off our course, bow straight on. The contact was reported and tracked by FC (Fire Control). When the scope broke the water, the OOD (Office of Deck) screamed "emergency deep", right full rudder! GET US DOWN! There were additional orders to the engine room which I will not go into, but needless to say, speed cranked up quickly! As Chief of the watch, I flooded two variable ballast tanks as hard and fast as I could. We pasted 150 feet going down fast as the tanker past directly over us. The wake generated by the bow of the tanker rolled us over 40 degrees. We were not struck but the pucker factor was off the chart! Review of all data showed that the configuration of the hull of the tanker was wide and flat bottomed and with a 90 degree bow directly on to us, the hull masked the prop noise. No one was deemed at fault. So, I have to wonder about Soryu if that might have happened to them. Thanks for a super report!
The 'bow null' is a terrifying thing. I've seen it myself. Not as close as you though, wow, that's a hell of an experience. I should have mentioned the bow null in the video.
That's one thing that is still a mystery to me, just how reactor power follows the demands of changing load on a ship, especially in a combat or emergency scenario like that where you need everything like right now, and then might have to go to zero in a short amount of time. It's fascinating to me, I imagine the engineering of those control systems is pretty unique. Probably easier to accomplish on such small reactors as well. Thank you for your service!
@@MontegaB PWRs are load following, which means you don't need to move reactor controls a great deal as load goes from say 25% to 100%. These reactors use the coolant water as a moderator - that's the material which absorbs some of the energy of the fast neutrons to convert them to slow neutrons which cause fission reactions. the numbrr of neutrons slowed depends on the density of the moderator which depends on the temperature. When you use more steam to speed up, the coolant/ moderator cools and becomes denser increasing the number of slow neutrons and thus reactor power rises warming up the coolant again. In the normal operating envelope of the reactor, this stabllises the reactor very effectively. HTH
@@nicholash3657 Because you don't know who might be listening, and it's also a bad habit to acquire in peacetime, because it might be a fatal error in wartime
Prior Submariner here. Never been part of a collision, but I absolutely understand how dangerous a collision can be. I'm glad nobody died and hope the injured recover.
This channel is where I find out about these incidents. Great walk-through of events and factors involved. So interesting to learn about something completely foreign to most of us. Looking at those dive planes angled like that for emergency deep made me realize submarines and airplanes are more similar than I thought.
I was on an SSB(N) in the Pacific in the early 70's. We had gone to PD to "shoot stars" and take a satellite transit pass (this was way before GPS. Our precision position updates (needed because SINS drift and can be affected by bottom terrain) came from star shots). Just as we returned to launch depth / patrol depth we clearly heard a big screw pass overhead. We went back to PD to have a look. It was a supertanker. They had come directly at our beam. Collision had been avoided--purely by luck--by only a few feet. The very broad and very deep structure of the ship in a head-on orientation effectively blocked that ship's engineering noise from reaching our sonar. Even when we went back and reviewed the sonar tapes, knowing that the vessel was coming, we could not hear it. I must wonder if the Japanese submarine had a similar issue with the relative orientation vs. sonar signal strength. The submarine's own speed could also degrade sonar detection capability. Also, remember that an optical periscope does not have a great visual range because it is so low to the water's surface. The height of the target above the water is the major assisting factor in visual detection. If something distracted the conning officer in a different direction (I wonder if that is a vessel over there?) it wouldn't take long for that large ship to "sneak up" and tag the distracted boat. In the boats, one must always be looking over one's shoulder. The baffles are not the only danger direction. We called it "situational awareness."
Dave Burks's story above also described a near collision with a supertanker. The "bow null" seems to blank off noise from the tanker's machinery and propeller.
@@patnolen8072 As you probably understand, precise location is important to successful mission accomplishment for an SSB(N). That "spear" needs to know where it is starting from in order to reach its intended destination. We ran multiple position plots, each based upon a different technology. These were constantly compared. When the differences got too big, we "re-zeroed" based upon outside references. In those days, stars, the orbital tracks of specific satellites, and LORAN (which no longer exists) provided such reference. There were multiple SINS units, but they constituted only one of the technologies employed. At the technological extreme from the SINS was the old fashioned "dead reckoning plot." Other methods filled the gap between those extremes. This was definitely a "trust but verify" environment. Periodically, when approaching an undersea precipice for example, the SINS were known to drift . Our "locally sensing" instruments would tell us one velocity while the SINS would report a noticeably different value (remember that "velocity" includes both speed and direction). The wall of an undersea trench or continental shelf was a common culprit. The change in mass proximity affected the readings. This shift could be in any direction depending upon where the increased nearby mass was relative to the vessel's position and track. The vertical was not a concern. We had easy corrections for that (starting with depth pressure). Besides, the bird knew sea level (with sufficient accuracy) the moment it broke water. Today there are maps of gravitational variation for the whole globe. Most of these are "macro scale" in detail. There are local anomalies that do not show on the large-scale maps. I have not seen any public maps of "horizontal" anomalies; such maps would also depend upon altitude or depth of the measuring platform relative to the anomaly. Yes. The same drift effect will apply to airborne SINS systems (I imagine that ground-hugging, terrain-following cruise missiles are similarly affected if they utilize SINS). New topic: One more possible confusing factor for the sonar operators on this submarine: The video stated that the area where the collision occurred had a lot of traffic. With contacts in all directions, prioritizing their relative risk can be difficult using only passive sensing. Even going active might not significantly reduce the risk (active sonar does not "see" everything, surface target sensing is different from submerged target sensing, and detectable range is influenced by surface proximity). If the approaching vessel's noise signature was muted (as discussed in my original reply) an assumption of greater distance might have been made. On this point, however, I am no authority as I am unknowledgeable about this submarine's sonar suite.
@@imadequate3376 Typically, a vessel passing directly overhead will be heard throughout the boat. This, of course, depends upon the engineering noise of the vessel. A sailboat, for obvious reasons, is unlikely to be heard. A cavitating or super-cavitating screw will be heard. Slower turning screw, such as on larger container ships and tankers, will probably be heard by the crews unenhanced ears. Noise from engineering is often linked to inefficiency. Modern merchant vessels try to be efficient. Thus, detection under some circumstances can be difficult.
Many years ago, my uncle who was a Swedish coast guard captain collided with a Swedish navy submarine that was at periscope depth. There never was an official report about that but I suspect things like this have happened many times in history.
@@larryrobertson3310 Small but top of the line ships. We’re world leading in both stealth ships and submarines. Google Visby class Corvette and Gotland class submarine.
@@Ivar_Kahrstrom About 15 years ago I went to San Diego. I was surprised to see a Swedish submarine docked in the harbor. I could tell it was swedish from the flag but was a bit surprised they'd be hanging out with the US Navy so far from home.
Thanks for getting on this developing story so quickly. Hearing the perspective of an experienced submariner and sonar man like yourself is better than anything you could get from a news site where someone is just relaying what they are told to say.
Gosh you came out very quick with this report . Made by someone who is very knowledgeable on the subject . Thank you, for you taken the time to post on line !
Awesome insight! I have relatively good theoretical knowledge about most submarine systems, but this practical operational knowledge is totally beyond any civilian. Very good commentary, thanks.
First of all a true heartfelt Thank you for all of your service! Amazing that just a few would be injured. Getting hit by a 50k+++ ton ship must have instantly rolled the sub 45-90 degrees and maybe shoved the sub down a few feet. Must have felt like a linebacker hitting you at full speed. Hoping for a speedy recovery for all involved.
My guess is that they had a very strong shallow layer. They probably weakly held the cargo ship with low bearing rate and fire control system put it much further out and no one questioned it. They probably broke thru the layer on the way up and realized the contact was MUCH closer. I have personally conducted war games where we had a massive layer down to 200 feet and we had trouble spotting a snorkling 688 on the surface outside of 3000 yards as the deep boat. Even HFA from the sail was deflected.
While I was a qualified SWO/OOD in the USN a number of years ago, I have some old understanding of sonar effectiveness in a busy shipping lane. Thus, I am wondering if multiple noisy contacts in the same general bearing may have masked how close the Artimus was to Soryu.
I was an AX on Navy P-3s as a ground pounder but would go on most detachments with a plane or two. Many times we would do a,patrol in transit and I’d listen to the sono buoys. In the Med it was just constant swishing of screws on freighters.
Great info, watching your channel since the Cold Waters gameplay...and I can say that thanks to you, I understood all the terminology and concepts mentioned!
Looking at the boat, she is fortunate to not be sharing a berth with her namesake on the Pacific floor. Great brief, Jive. These incidents are more frequent than many folks think. The Kitty Hawk had a Russian sub try to surface under her in the early '80s, the 711 hit a seamount, and the 771 hit a surface ship on surfacing, and those are only the published incidents. Submarines are dangerous, regardless of whose flag it is. Keep up the great briefs, Jive.
The adventure of 2021 continues... Interestingly "Artemis" is the Greek Goddess of hunting, and the submarine "Soryu" was named after a World War II Japanese aircraft carrier sunk during the Battle of Midway. Standing by...
All subs of the Soryu class are named after mythical creatures, so far all dragons. It just happens that the WW2 CVs also used the same convention. (Yeah I'm sure they named them after the carriers)
@@MMuraseofSandvich Pretty much all navies reuse names one way or another. At least the old IJN and current JMSDF have some pretty nice naming conventions compared to other some other countries. Yeah, I'm looking at you, USN carriers with your formerly nice naming convention all jumbled up by throwing people's names in. Personally always preferred naming destroyers after people rather than doing so for carriers or other capital ships.
Another great brief, even with the limited information, I really like how you explain things for us to understand. I had a Boy Scout Leader who was Chief of the Boat on the old Kamehameha. He would tell us, what he could, about all the hairy situations they got into doing whatever it was they did. I don’t think the greater public will ever know exactly how dicey things can get when you’re playing Blind Mans Bluff for keeps. For most of us it’s just a game and a book, for submarines, it’s a way of life. Carry on good sir!
Not knowing anything about submarines I had no idea how complicated just surfacing can be. Many thanks for your chanel because you have just taught an old wrinkly a little of what our submariners go through keeping us all safe in our beds. Thank you
@Maniac 5000 You'd be surprised, I know I was. Collisions are pretty much a primary concern for any ship captain on the open ocean. Sailing small vessels for instance is very dangerous without radar and requires a 24 hour watch to make sure you don't get run over.
Looking at the sail and plane... how unbelievably strong the core structure must be to just take a hit like that. Holy crap. Excellent rundown of the event. Thanks!
That had to be absolutely terrifying to the crew, taking that hard a collision, enough to heel over far enough to fold the fairwater plane off the keel of the cargo ship, with potentially little or no warning.
Thank goodness she survived. Our Japanese Submariner brothers are a squared away group, blows my mind this happened. We hosted the JDS Mochishio several years ago when they came to Point Loma for some ops. Dedicated men, every single one of them.
Wow, lots of people are gonna be standing tall at that review board!!! Glad no one was killed! Something that big slams you broadside, could have been much worse!
I knew you would cover this, Jive. I'm glad there were just minor injuries reported among the crew and no civilian injuries or deaths. I'll search your channel for the _Greenville_ collision analysis (very different situation, different sub, but still a military sub hitting a civilian surface ship and it was referenced in the national news reports). I would imagine that a ballast blow would have had a very different result. (Quick FYI for English speakers: Junko should be pronounced "June Co" rather than "Junk o".)
Great video. I really like your videos where you go into details about incidents like this and even some that aren't as obvious like the incidents in the baltic sea with the Soviets and Swedish. It would be great to see something similar on what happened with k-129. It's so interesting with all the cover ups and whatnot and even just hearing the speculations on why it sunk to begin with or why no one has gone back to the site if there is anything even to find there.
The physics of ocean water, and sonar, and other things, is why I LOVE this channel. I just don't think people adequately appreciate how dangerous the ocean is. Like other forces of nature, it doesn't "hate us", it's simply indifferent to our existence. Hollywood screen writers would have *plenty* to write about just by knowing the real hazards of submarines and the oceans, that they wouldn't have to make anything up!
They’ve never let truth get in the way of a good story, there are plenty of true stories about US Destroyers during The Battle of the Atlantic which the could have made into a film.
As always a great technical discussion by Sub Brief. Hope the submariners are okay. Submarining is always a risky endeavor and why I admire this service greatly.
I can't imagine not hearing a cargo ship without a layer (based on your previous videos on the subject) affecting sonar, so the public facing explanation will be interesting to see.
Driving through the Straits of Juan de Fuca, we had to deal with serious deep draft freighters like the Hyundai King, 125ft draft. And that makes your safety depth down around 200ft. There is a layer down there to contend with.
I... have my doubts about that figure. I can't think of any harbor in the world that can handle a ship with a draft of 125 feet. Anything beyond 50 feet seems unlikely for anything other than a floating offshore oil platform.
In 1994 we had a sub radio for help. We were in the Philippines. It was a bamboo fishing boat that had a 30 cal machine gun. The fishermen had never seen a sub before and shot the hell out of the sub. Damaged the antenna of the sub. We launched Cobra helos and Harrier jump jets. They blew up that fishing boat in 3 minutes. I was on the USS Belleau Wood LHA3.
Great work as always, Captain :D On a completely unrelated note, if you need material for future Soviet/Russian sub briefs, I recently came across a series called "Combat Approved" on RUclips. It's produced by the Russian military and released by RT, so you won't find any classified data and it comes with a fair bit of praise/propaganda for their own subs, but I think that you would be interested in looking at what they have to say about their submarines. They have episodes on the Akula, the Yasen and the Delta III. It's dubbed in English and comes with subtitles. I think that you would be interested in taking a look at this.
That sub hit everything there was in its sea: less than a year after colliding with Ehime Maru, where nine died, and five months after running aground, it collided with USS Ogden. Cmdr Waddle's request to retire was approved with an honorable discharge.
There seems to be a lot of bad luck involved too. The sail of the sub is quite small and it was travelling at right angle to the course of the freighter. A few seconds later they would have been ok. If I was the captain of a freighter and wanted to intentionally ram the sail of a moving sub at right angle, I would have a really difficult task. Chances would have been greater that the sub would ram the freighter, as the freighter would be in the way a lot longer. So they had some good luck mixed with the bad luck. I imagine that ramming a freighter with the front of the sub sail would do more damage to both ships. A lot of the collision energy was absorbed by rolling the sub. Possibly these things happen more often, but almost all end in near misses and we don't hear about them?
Apparently the bad luck involved with that submarine started already when it was built at the Mitsubishi ship yards, as during its construction five workers were electrocuted and burned.
2 quick stories...we were operating in the South China Sea where there were plenty of sail powered vessels...always scary when going to PD. We cleared baffles and started comin g up when the OOD screamed emergency deep. I went out and ask him what the contact was and he said he wasn't sure but that it had wooded decks. Close... Another time was similar to others...bow null, thought the tanker/cargo ship was much further away. We weren't coming to PD but we were operating shallower. The SNR suddenly jumped high (indicative of a bow null) and then the boat started shaking side to side from the prop wash of the contact. You could get a turn count through the hull. Close...
Great initial explanation. On a routine coming to periscope depth wouldn’t the crew monitor water temp and see the thermal layer? Back in the day I had many scuba dives in Okinawa and experienced very pronounced thermal layers. On several dives I would fine a few feet of warm water and stay at that level, everyone else would get out and be half frozen and I would get out and act tough.
Yes, exactly. If there was a layer, they saw it as they ascended through it, but you don't halt a periscope depth evolution because you found a layer. They should have halted it when they heard the ship right next to them though.
@@SubBrief Love the briefs! I also got an in depth tour of a Los Angeles class in Subic Bay. The OOD said I could see everything but the Nuke space and sonar. The “New” guy giving the tour didn’t even realize we were in sonar (equipment off). When he went to the Nuke hatch I had to tell him NO the tours over! I knew we wouldn’t get in anything but trouble for trying.
Excellent video, thanks for the explaination. As a merchant seafarer, my mind immediately wonders why AIS isn't used to check for surface vessels before surfacing. In my mind, I imagine it would be feasible to float a VHF/AIS antenna to surface to check before maneuvers. Of course, not every vessel is transmitting, but large commercial traffic certainly will be. COLREGS rule 5 states, we shall use all avaliable means appropriate to make a full appraisal of the risk of collision. By the manner of the damage, it would suggest they were following the rules for crossing a traffic scheme at a perpendicular angle (rule 10,c), but maybe next time showing nav lights, transmitting AIS, using a radar transponder may have made for a safer (and surely less stealthy) transit. I would think if stealth was a concern in their situation, they wouldn't be surfacing. Also, going into COLREGS, the sub would've been the give-way vessel and required not to impede the surface vessel on her starboard side (rule 15). My $0.02 having not sailed on subs 😁
Hi. Came across your excellent videos during lockdown. Back in the day i was a huge fan of the 'Red Storm Rising' game on my C64. Loading it with the three tapes took about 40mins to play out just one scenario. It would be great if you could do some Vids on the Falklands Conflict. This conflict saw a lot of serious ASW work done. The ARA San Luis came very close to causing Royal Navy some serious losses. Would be nice to hear some detail of the Belgrano and ARA Santa Fe losses. Thanks.
It could have been a Stromberg Corporation tanker, attempting to capture the submarine by opening it's bow mouth and swallowing the sub whole. This was demonstrated in The Spy Who Loved Me.
Fantastic speech. Blind boat surfaced and collided with smth in 'very busy' area. This boat is blind and deaf. Even WWI vessel would hear smth around but 1st class Japanese vessel nowadays does not. Really it tooks smth to explain that, congratulations!
Hi Jive! I saw in a news report a picture where the sail appears to be slightly bent out of vertical... If that’s the case she’s out for a very long time I’m afraid! Keep up the good work the channel is amazing
"Soryu" is a cursed submarine. It's known to we Japanese. 2008 Five people were electrocuted during construction. 2012 One sailor drowned on the bridge after diving. 2013 One officer attempted suicide with a pistol on board. 2021 Collision with a cargo ship while surfacing, three people were injured.
I start my new job with Submarines next week. I can't say what I'll be doing...but it's going to be sweet and involves some awesome training! I'll probably be going through your white board videos again very soon!
Very clear and precise information in the light of what is known about this event - that could have been so much worse. I learned a great deal. Thanks.
@@stevenlarratt3638 Underwater sound propagation can be... tricky. Modern subs carry what amounts to nearly a supercomputer to do the data work and make sense of what comes in via sonar
@@stevenlarratt3638 depends on sound conditions and contact density. Have been south of Italy and tracking contacts at east end of med but did not hear a carrier close aboard until we broke through the layer. Emergency deep... top of sail area is quite a bit higher than sonar array in bow. Lots to consider, including bottom bounce and relative speed of closure.
@@merrillalbury8214 getting run over by a carrier... that musta been a brown alert moment. you coulda just asked the russians what that's like, don't need to relive it yourself XD
Have you / or would you do a video on the Kursk? That is the only big submarine incident I remember because It was a big thing on the news when I was a kid. Absoluetly love your longer videos!
Hi,very interesting material. Very profesional and matter of factly. Thanks to youre channel i learned alot about submarines. Really interesting stuff. I have a question that is somehow related to the topic. Did you had a chance to watch the film "Estonia: The Find That Changes Everything" ? It is a 5 part documentary about the sinking of MS Estonia. The makers made a dive to it's wreck and found a hole in the ship that is a mystery, wasn't mention in official investigation. To some people it look like it was caused by a collision with a submarine. I have no clue what to think about it. Hence my question. Did you heard about it? If so, do have you any opinions about it? Regards
I really hope the navy is sufficiently advanced that the review of this has the possibility of concluding the CO did everything by the book and it was an amazing mix of coincidences that could not reasonably have been anticipated nor did standard operating procedures in fact do so. In which case they are exonerated rather than instant career death because that seems manifestly unjust IF that is in fact the only reasonable conclusion. It seems so outrageous that it obviously WAS very unlucky. Just because the result is disastrous does not of itself mean negligence on the part of the CO. Nice to hear your voice again, Jive. I've been away from your channel for a while. Cheers
There is a Captain that will be relieved of duty...but...he can still walk away knowing no life was lost. It is a high traffic area...I do not want to be in front of that Board of Inquiry!!!
Thank you... I would be interested if you do a follow up or in another video, is how would you identify that shallow layer and what the normal actions would have been in response to a shallow layer. Also, having had such a collision what would have been the expected actions of the crew, and specifically from a sonar perspective.
Excellent synopsis & discussion, thanks. Reminds me somewhat of the HARTFORD and NEW ORLEANS collision at the entrance of the Persian Gulf. The SSN restoration was costly, lengthy and ugly.
do all those key words in the description help the video show up on searches? Also, would having cameras on the hull of the submarine help in that kind of situation? maybe the cameras would provide too little of a benefit when the methods available are good enough if used correctly...
My eldest brother was serving on the USS Voge in '76 when they ran over a Soviet sub that was trying to tear off a sonic bouy they were towing, and the helmsman miscalculated and ran the sub under the frigate. Several people on the sub died--the conning tower was almost destroyed--and the Voge lost all propulsion. Lost her screws, I think. Incidents like this were not uncommon during the Cold War.
My grandpa was in the IJN and my older brother is in the current JMSDF on an Izumo-Class helicopter carrier. We're a big navy family going way back to the beginning. I'm from Okinawa but permanently in the US now.
Not a bad idea! Or a small buoyant sonar tethered to the sub that can get above the thermal water layer or ever to the surface (with a camera). I've seen this type of thermal layer while SCUBA diving (called the thermocline) and I can totally understand how sonar would have a hard time "seeing" through it.
Don't forget that a sufficiently large vessel, especially something shaped like a tanker or bulk carrier, can mask its own propellor noise behind its bow if it is facing you directly.
If he can demonstrate that he did everything perfectly, and that whatever went wrong was completely beyond his control and reasonable expectations, then maybe he could survive it, but that is a REALLY high bar to clear. If nothing else, the Navy is going to want to demonstrate that someone is taking the fall for this, and if isn't Captain, it'll be an Admiral... he's kinda boned
@@SubBrief you got to look both ways before crossing the street, Cap't. That shouldn't be giving away a procedure, that should be common sense. 🤷🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️👍🏾
Could you please make a video about different dive plane configurations? There are basically 3 types. Bowplanes, "Eyebrownplanes" or how you want to call them and Fairwater planes. On my knowledge (I have read a book called "Concepts in submarine design") There are many more aspects than just what the binary thinking popular science guys everywere in the Internet explain. As an example I found out, that Fairwaterplanes increase the bow pitch-up at higher speeds because they are mounted high and with their resistance this creates a lever arm. Also as an example Bowplanes have a big advantage in that you can retract them at high speeds because you dont need them and you have less resistance. Also planes on the longitudinal position of COG can control depth independent of the stern planes that (at least at low speeds) control pitch without any effect on depth. More Forward planes create less interference with the propulsor. Fairwaterplanes even have no effect on the wake at all. And there are many more things like surface suction effects and sonar interference from hydrodynamic noise. It would be really cool if you would make a video on that topic that rules them all, busts all myths, and shows that there is not "right way" to do it and every submarine has different requirements. On quora and so on they just all say that Bow Planes are better for ice operation.
I asked it before would you consider doing a video on the collision many moons ago between the US sub amd and the japanese student fishery boat off Hawaii that culminated in a huge loss of life on the surface vessel? Great video as always and take care.
Morning to ya fellow submariner! As a former chief of the watch, I remember an incident with us and a large merchant. Sonar had the contact but was reporting it at least 5 times farther away than it was actually. It's course was exactly 90 degrees off our course, bow straight on. The contact was reported and tracked by FC (Fire Control). When the scope broke the water, the OOD (Office of Deck) screamed "emergency deep", right full rudder! GET US DOWN! There were additional orders to the engine room which I will not go into, but needless to say, speed cranked up quickly! As Chief of the watch, I flooded two variable ballast tanks as hard and fast as I could. We pasted 150 feet going down fast as the tanker past directly over us. The wake generated by the bow of the tanker rolled us over 40 degrees. We were not struck but the pucker factor was off the chart! Review of all data showed that the configuration of the hull of the tanker was wide and flat bottomed and with a 90 degree bow directly on to us, the hull masked the prop noise. No one was deemed at fault. So, I have to wonder about Soryu if that might have happened to them. Thanks for a super report!
The 'bow null' is a terrifying thing. I've seen it myself. Not as close as you though, wow, that's a hell of an experience. I should have mentioned the bow null in the video.
That's one thing that is still a mystery to me, just how reactor power follows the demands of changing load on a ship, especially in a combat or emergency scenario like that where you need everything like right now, and then might have to go to zero in a short amount of time. It's fascinating to me, I imagine the engineering of those control systems is pretty unique. Probably easier to accomplish on such small reactors as well. Thank you for your service!
Hello holly crap you terrified me with you anecdotal comments, biggest boat is about to kill me. Saludos
@@MontegaB PWRs are load following, which means you don't need to move reactor controls a great deal as load goes from say 25% to 100%. These reactors use the coolant water as a moderator - that's the material which absorbs some of the energy of the fast neutrons to convert them to slow neutrons which cause fission reactions. the numbrr of neutrons slowed depends on the density of the moderator which depends on the temperature. When you use more steam to speed up, the coolant/ moderator cools and becomes denser increasing the number of slow neutrons and thus reactor power rises warming up the coolant again. In the normal operating envelope of the reactor, this stabllises the reactor very effectively. HTH
What a great story, you should write a novel. Thanks for explanation.
Ocean Artemis: Oi, why did you go to PD?
Soryuu: Couldn't Hiryuu.
*ba-dum-tss*
I like you, Orz. You're on my crew now. Congrats.
@@SubBrief Thank you Captain, I'll make sure our high-pressure toilets are clean and operating within parameters!
Why don’t they just ping with active sonar in friendly waters when going to periscope depth?
@@nicholash3657 Because you don't know who might be listening, and it's also a bad habit to acquire in peacetime, because it might be a fatal error in wartime
Soryuu couldn’t see us...... I’ll see myself out
Prior Submariner here. Never been part of a collision, but I absolutely understand how dangerous a collision can be. I'm glad nobody died and hope the injured recover.
This channel is where I find out about these incidents. Great walk-through of events and factors involved. So interesting to learn about something completely foreign to most of us. Looking at those dive planes angled like that for emergency deep made me realize submarines and airplanes are more similar than I thought.
I was on an SSB(N) in the Pacific in the early 70's. We had gone to PD to "shoot stars" and take a satellite transit pass (this was way before GPS. Our precision position updates (needed because SINS drift and can be affected by bottom terrain) came from star shots). Just as we returned to launch depth / patrol depth we clearly heard a big screw pass overhead. We went back to PD to have a look. It was a supertanker. They had come directly at our beam. Collision had been avoided--purely by luck--by only a few feet. The very broad and very deep structure of the ship in a head-on orientation effectively blocked that ship's engineering noise from reaching our sonar. Even when we went back and reviewed the sonar tapes, knowing that the vessel was coming, we could not hear it. I must wonder if the Japanese submarine had a similar issue with the relative orientation vs. sonar signal strength. The submarine's own speed could also degrade sonar detection capability.
Also, remember that an optical periscope does not have a great visual range because it is so low to the water's surface. The height of the target above the water is the major assisting factor in visual detection. If something distracted the conning officer in a different direction (I wonder if that is a vessel over there?) it wouldn't take long for that large ship to "sneak up" and tag the distracted boat.
In the boats, one must always be looking over one's shoulder. The baffles are not the only danger direction. We called it "situational awareness."
Is the Inertial Navigation System affected by bottom terrain? Local gravity variations might make a minute difference to the vertical.
Dave Burks's story above also described a near collision with a supertanker. The "bow null" seems to blank off noise from the tanker's machinery and propeller.
@@patnolen8072 As you probably understand, precise location is important to successful mission accomplishment for an SSB(N). That "spear" needs to know where it is starting from in order to reach its intended destination. We ran multiple position plots, each based upon a different technology. These were constantly compared. When the differences got too big, we "re-zeroed" based upon outside references. In those days, stars, the orbital tracks of specific satellites, and LORAN (which no longer exists) provided such reference. There were multiple SINS units, but they constituted only one of the technologies employed. At the technological extreme from the SINS was the old fashioned "dead reckoning plot." Other methods filled the gap between those extremes. This was definitely a "trust but verify" environment.
Periodically, when approaching an undersea precipice for example, the SINS were known to drift . Our "locally sensing" instruments would tell us one velocity while the SINS would report a noticeably different value (remember that "velocity" includes both speed and direction). The wall of an undersea trench or continental shelf was a common culprit. The change in mass proximity affected the readings. This shift could be in any direction depending upon where the increased nearby mass was relative to the vessel's position and track. The vertical was not a concern. We had easy corrections for that (starting with depth pressure). Besides, the bird knew sea level (with sufficient accuracy) the moment it broke water. Today there are maps of gravitational variation for the whole globe. Most of these are "macro scale" in detail. There are local anomalies that do not show on the large-scale maps. I have not seen any public maps of "horizontal" anomalies; such maps would also depend upon altitude or depth of the measuring platform relative to the anomaly. Yes. The same drift effect will apply to airborne SINS systems (I imagine that ground-hugging, terrain-following cruise missiles are similarly affected if they utilize SINS).
New topic: One more possible confusing factor for the sonar operators on this submarine: The video stated that the area where the collision occurred had a lot of traffic. With contacts in all directions, prioritizing their relative risk can be difficult using only passive sensing. Even going active might not significantly reduce the risk (active sonar does not "see" everything, surface target sensing is different from submerged target sensing, and detectable range is influenced by surface proximity). If the approaching vessel's noise signature was muted (as discussed in my original reply) an assumption of greater distance might have been made. On this point, however, I am no authority as I am unknowledgeable about this submarine's sonar suite.
How audible are other ships while in a submarine when they are that close?
I'm assuming the whole crew probably hear that thing but maybe I'm wrong.
@@imadequate3376 Typically, a vessel passing directly overhead will be heard throughout the boat. This, of course, depends upon the engineering noise of the vessel. A sailboat, for obvious reasons, is unlikely to be heard. A cavitating or super-cavitating screw will be heard. Slower turning screw, such as on larger container ships and tankers, will probably be heard by the crews unenhanced ears. Noise from engineering is often linked to inefficiency. Modern merchant vessels try to be efficient. Thus, detection under some circumstances can be difficult.
Many years ago, my uncle who was a Swedish coast guard captain collided with a Swedish navy submarine that was at periscope depth. There never was an official report about that but I suspect things like this have happened many times in history.
Sweds have a navy ??
@@larryrobertson3310 Small but top of the line ships. We’re world leading in both stealth ships and submarines. Google Visby class Corvette and Gotland class submarine.
@@Ivar_Kahrstrom About 15 years ago I went to San Diego. I was surprised to see a Swedish submarine docked in the harbor. I could tell it was swedish from the flag but was a bit surprised they'd be hanging out with the US Navy so far from home.
U bet Ur sweet @ss they do.
@@clearsmashdrop5829 Cool stuff! Was probably some joint excercise. The Swedish subs are diesel electric and very silent. Incredible engineering.
Also, obligatory "Soryu about that"
Ba dum tis!
At least unlike her name sake she didn't stay underwater
Battle of midway: no problem 😉
lol, that was bad, really bad, but good at the same time!
Jive.... how much is the traffic ticket fine for running a red in FREAKING SUBMARINE?! 🤣😅
All of the money.
50m-200m it depends on the size of the submarine.
@@captiannemo1587 That was either a relatively deep or very expensive answer.
An officer's career?
@@scotty1108 and usually more than one. Captain and Officer of the Deck
Thanks for sharing. For the submarine, going to periscope depth is one of the most dangerous/stressfull evolutions for any submarine
No doubt!
Thanks for getting on this developing story so quickly. Hearing the perspective of an experienced submariner and sonar man like yourself is better than anything you could get from a news site where someone is just relaying what they are told to say.
This week really seems to be starting on the note of “Someone done screwed up”
Gosh you came out very quick with this report . Made by someone who is very knowledgeable on the subject . Thank you, for you taken the time to post on line !
Awesome insight! I have relatively good theoretical knowledge about most submarine systems, but this practical operational knowledge is totally beyond any civilian. Very good commentary, thanks.
First of all a true heartfelt Thank you for all of your service! Amazing that just a few would be injured. Getting hit by a 50k+++ ton ship must have instantly rolled the sub 45-90 degrees and maybe shoved the sub down a few feet. Must have felt like a linebacker hitting you at full speed. Hoping for a speedy recovery for all involved.
My guess is that they had a very strong shallow layer. They probably weakly held the cargo ship with low bearing rate and fire control system put it much further out and no one questioned it. They probably broke thru the layer on the way up and realized the contact was MUCH closer. I have personally conducted war games where we had a massive layer down to 200 feet and we had trouble spotting a snorkling 688 on the surface outside of 3000 yards as the deep boat. Even HFA from the sail was deflected.
While I was a qualified SWO/OOD in the USN a number of years ago, I have some old understanding of sonar effectiveness in a busy shipping lane. Thus, I am wondering if multiple noisy contacts in the same general bearing may have masked how close the Artimus was to Soryu.
I was an AX on Navy P-3s as a ground pounder but would go on most detachments with a plane or two. Many times we would do a,patrol in transit and I’d listen to the sono buoys. In the Med it was just constant swishing of screws on freighters.
Considering that they got T’boned, I don’t think that it was a failure in the clearing of the baffles.
Great info, watching your channel since the Cold Waters gameplay...and I can say that thanks to you, I understood all the terminology and concepts mentioned!
Looking at the boat, she is fortunate to not be sharing a berth with her namesake on the Pacific floor. Great brief, Jive. These incidents are more frequent than many folks think. The Kitty Hawk had a Russian sub try to surface under her in the early '80s, the 711 hit a seamount, and the 771 hit a surface ship on surfacing, and those are only the published incidents. Submarines are dangerous, regardless of whose flag it is. Keep up the great briefs, Jive.
The adventure of 2021 continues... Interestingly "Artemis" is the Greek Goddess of hunting, and the submarine "Soryu" was named after a World War II Japanese aircraft carrier sunk during the Battle of Midway. Standing by...
Soryu meaning is blue dragon
@@bravoA-su8xm ...still got that sinking feeling though... 🌊 ⬇ 🙄
All subs of the Soryu class are named after mythical creatures, so far all dragons. It just happens that the WW2 CVs also used the same convention.
(Yeah I'm sure they named them after the carriers)
@@MMuraseofSandvich Pretty much all navies reuse names one way or another. At least the old IJN and current JMSDF have some pretty nice naming conventions compared to other some other countries. Yeah, I'm looking at you, USN carriers with your formerly nice naming convention all jumbled up by throwing people's names in. Personally always preferred naming destroyers after people rather than doing so for carriers or other capital ships.
@@USSEnterpriseA1701 Yorktown,Hornet,Lexington,Saratoga still waiting.
Another great brief, even with the limited information, I really like how you explain things for us to understand. I had a Boy Scout Leader who was Chief of the Boat on the old Kamehameha. He would tell us, what he could, about all the hairy situations they got into doing whatever it was they did. I don’t think the greater public will ever know exactly how dicey things can get when you’re playing Blind Mans Bluff for keeps. For most of us it’s just a game and a book, for submarines, it’s a way of life. Carry on good sir!
Not knowing anything about submarines I had no idea how complicated just surfacing can be. Many thanks for your chanel because you have just taught an old wrinkly a little of what our submariners go through keeping us all safe in our beds. Thank you
Submarine-Able to hunt other submerged subs trying to not get found. *Huge tanker* Do you hear something??
@Maniac 5000 Japans waters are very busy
@Maniac 5000 You'd be surprised, I know I was. Collisions are pretty much a primary concern for any ship captain on the open ocean. Sailing small vessels for instance is very dangerous without radar and requires a 24 hour watch to make sure you don't get run over.
very busy and very shallow
Even with radar, and this accident proves my point. Millions of dollars of tech, cant beat a lookout
fhhsvnggbh yeah radar not pick things up sometimes
Looking at the sail and plane... how unbelievably strong the core structure must be to just take a hit like that. Holy crap. Excellent rundown of the event. Thanks!
That had to be absolutely terrifying to the crew, taking that hard a collision, enough to heel over far enough to fold the fairwater plane off the keel of the cargo ship, with potentially little or no warning.
Wonderful to hear a concise explanation of standard sub operations from a highly trained guy on US subs . From a fan in Qld Australia
Many thanks!
A far more informative explanation than the superficial spectacle voyeurism I saw on TV. Great job. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Thank goodness she survived. Our Japanese Submariner brothers are a squared away group, blows my mind this happened. We hosted the JDS Mochishio several years ago when they came to Point Loma for some ops. Dedicated men, every single one of them.
Very good informed speculation. Great content as usual!
Much appreciated!
The periscope operator sees the ship, promptly shits his pants, and calls for an emergency dive.
Wow, lots of people are gonna be standing tall at that review board!!! Glad no one was killed! Something that big slams you broadside, could have been much worse!
I knew you would cover this, Jive. I'm glad there were just minor injuries reported among the crew and no civilian injuries or deaths.
I'll search your channel for the _Greenville_ collision analysis (very different situation, different sub, but still a military sub hitting a civilian surface ship and it was referenced in the national news reports). I would imagine that a ballast blow would have had a very different result.
(Quick FYI for English speakers: Junko should be pronounced "June Co" rather than "Junk o".)
We all know this was Jive trying out the Soryu in Cold Waters... It's a miracle the periscope was intact XD. These videos are awesome!
More like Jingles...😉
Great video. I really like your videos where you go into details about incidents like this and even some that aren't as obvious like the incidents in the baltic sea with the Soviets and Swedish. It would be great to see something similar on what happened with k-129. It's so interesting with all the cover ups and whatnot and even just hearing the speculations on why it sunk to begin with or why no one has gone back to the site if there is anything even to find there.
I suspect that is where and how submarine crews train to sharpen their capabilities... in the middle of surface traffic.
We could invite them to "practice" surfacing in The English Channel, one of the world's busiest shipping routes in four directions. 👍🏼 🇬🇧 😉
@@spaceskipster4412 You clearly haven't seen the traffic outside Japan....
Initial D intensifies
The physics of ocean water, and sonar, and other things, is why I LOVE this channel. I just don't think people adequately appreciate how dangerous the ocean is. Like other forces of nature, it doesn't "hate us", it's simply indifferent to our existence.
Hollywood screen writers would have *plenty* to write about just by knowing the real hazards of submarines and the oceans, that they wouldn't have to make anything up!
I agree. I would love to be a technical advisor on the next navy submarine movie just to help them understand sub life.
They’ve never let truth get in the way of a good story, there are plenty of true stories about US Destroyers during The Battle of the Atlantic which the could have made into a film.
Extremely informative, thanks Jive!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Very interesting. Good to see a video by someone who clearly has some knowledge on the matter and presents it unbiased.
As always a great technical discussion by Sub Brief. Hope the submariners are okay. Submarining is always a risky endeavor and why I admire this service greatly.
Cool, thanks for doing this video, Aaron!
I can't imagine not hearing a cargo ship without a layer (based on your previous videos on the subject) affecting sonar, so the public facing explanation will be interesting to see.
If there was a layer that should have been communicated to the conn, then baffle clear again...
Driving through the Straits of Juan de Fuca, we had to deal with serious deep draft freighters like the Hyundai King, 125ft draft. And that makes your safety depth down around 200ft.
There is a layer down there to contend with.
125ft DRAFT?!? Good grief.
@@robertl6196 yeah, that's a monster. Apparently makes the cross pacific run in a week, or something close to that.
I... have my doubts about that figure. I can't think of any harbor in the world that can handle a ship with a draft of 125 feet. Anything beyond 50 feet seems unlikely for anything other than a floating offshore oil platform.
@@rdfox76 I agree that it sounds insane.
Class and type: Hyundai Dream-class container ship
Tonnage:
130,000 GT
152,700 DWT
Length: 366.5 m (1,202 ft)
Beam: 48 m (157 ft)
Draught: 14 m (46 ft)
Depth: 30 m (98 ft)
Let’s hope the crews ok having served in the submarine service this will shake you about a bit
In 1994 we had a sub radio for help. We were in the Philippines.
It was a bamboo fishing boat that had a 30 cal machine gun.
The fishermen had never seen a sub before and shot the hell out of the sub. Damaged the antenna of the sub.
We launched Cobra helos and Harrier jump jets. They blew up that fishing boat in 3 minutes.
I was on the USS Belleau Wood LHA3.
Extraordinary - what was the name of the submarine? I want to read about this incident.
Great work as always, Captain :D
On a completely unrelated note, if you need material for future Soviet/Russian sub briefs, I recently came across a series called "Combat Approved" on RUclips. It's produced by the Russian military and released by RT, so you won't find any classified data and it comes with a fair bit of praise/propaganda for their own subs, but I think that you would be interested in looking at what they have to say about their submarines. They have episodes on the Akula, the Yasen and the Delta III. It's dubbed in English and comes with subtitles. I think that you would be interested in taking a look at this.
*commander Scott Waddle, ex-skipper of USS Greeneville has entered the chat*
That sub hit everything there was in its sea: less than a year after colliding with Ehime Maru, where nine died, and five months after running aground, it collided with USS Ogden. Cmdr Waddle's request to retire was approved with an honorable discharge.
@@ml9849 it's like a bumble bee, bumps onto everything lul
"Sonar plot? Nah, I don't want to walk through the gaggle of CEOs. Blow the ballast!"
@@MMuraseofSandvich poor taste
@@MMuraseofSandvich Civilians visiting blew the ballast here.
Always amazed when 2 behemoths interact in such a way with such minimal damage/injuries. must have been somethig to experience
There seems to be a lot of bad luck involved too. The sail of the sub is quite small and it was travelling at right angle to the course of the freighter. A few seconds later they would have been ok. If I was the captain of a freighter and wanted to intentionally ram the sail of a moving sub at right angle, I would have a really difficult task.
Chances would have been greater that the sub would ram the freighter, as the freighter would be in the way a lot longer. So they had some good luck mixed with the bad luck. I imagine that ramming a freighter with the front of the sub sail would do more damage to both ships. A lot of the collision energy was absorbed by rolling the sub.
Possibly these things happen more often, but almost all end in near misses and we don't hear about them?
Three yrs ago state of art destroyer was hit by a ship the size on 8 story house. What are these guys doing
Apparently the bad luck involved with that submarine started already when it was built at the Mitsubishi ship yards, as during its construction five workers were electrocuted and burned.
I really appreciated u put the links of the reference articles u used. well done. i wish all do this :)
Morning, glad to see another upload!
Morning!
2 quick stories...we were operating in the South China Sea where there were plenty of sail powered vessels...always scary when going to PD. We cleared baffles and started comin g up when the OOD screamed emergency deep. I went out and ask him what the contact was and he said he wasn't sure but that it had wooded decks. Close...
Another time was similar to others...bow null, thought the tanker/cargo ship was much further away. We weren't coming to PD but we were operating shallower. The SNR suddenly jumped high (indicative of a bow null) and then the boat started shaking side to side from the prop wash of the contact. You could get a turn count through the hull. Close...
Great initial explanation.
On a routine coming to periscope depth wouldn’t the crew monitor water temp and see the thermal layer? Back in the day I had many scuba dives in Okinawa and experienced very pronounced thermal layers. On several dives I would fine a few feet of warm water and stay at that level, everyone else would get out and be half frozen and I would get out and act tough.
Yes, exactly. If there was a layer, they saw it as they ascended through it, but you don't halt a periscope depth evolution because you found a layer. They should have halted it when they heard the ship right next to them though.
@@SubBrief Love the briefs! I also got an in depth tour of a Los Angeles class in Subic Bay. The OOD said I could see everything but the Nuke space and sonar. The “New” guy giving the tour didn’t even realize we were in sonar (equipment off). When he went to the Nuke hatch I had to tell him NO the tours over! I knew we wouldn’t get in anything but trouble for trying.
Theres an RN astute class with an even bigger "dent" that is being kept hush hush
Are you referring to the Ambush?
You're mistaken mate, the incident with Ambush happened years ago
@@Wheelie.Bin. Yeah, but do you know how long it takes to find a panel beating shop with a drydock as well? It's not the parts, mate, it's the labour
@@Akm72 you could say it got ambushed by a Spanish fishing ship
Captain was on tea break🙂
Excellent video, thanks for the explaination. As a merchant seafarer, my mind immediately wonders why AIS isn't used to check for surface vessels before surfacing. In my mind, I imagine it would be feasible to float a VHF/AIS antenna to surface to check before maneuvers. Of course, not every vessel is transmitting, but large commercial traffic certainly will be. COLREGS rule 5 states, we shall use all avaliable means appropriate to make a full appraisal of the risk of collision. By the manner of the damage, it would suggest they were following the rules for crossing a traffic scheme at a perpendicular angle (rule 10,c), but maybe next time showing nav lights, transmitting AIS, using a radar transponder may have made for a safer (and surely less stealthy) transit. I would think if stealth was a concern in their situation, they wouldn't be surfacing. Also, going into COLREGS, the sub would've been the give-way vessel and required not to impede the surface vessel on her starboard side (rule 15). My $0.02 having not sailed on subs 😁
Ocean Artemis is registered in HK. Guess Winnie Pooh will be happy that one JPN boat is out of action.
no one, not even poh expect suchvstupid Behavior. in line with forgetting to close the hatch.
Not as happy as the day Pooh saw a dementia patient became the commander in chief
Welcome to join USA hitting cargo ship
Ocean Artemis's captain probably had a really awkward phone call with the insurance company
It's always the submarine's fault. The submarine has more ways to evade that a ship.
@@DartzIRL I doubt the insurance covers submarine collisions
Hi.
Came across your excellent videos during lockdown.
Back in the day i was a huge fan of the 'Red Storm Rising' game on my C64. Loading it with the three tapes took about 40mins to play out just one scenario.
It would be great if you could do some Vids on the Falklands Conflict. This conflict saw a lot of serious ASW work done.
The ARA San Luis came very close to causing Royal Navy some serious losses.
Would be nice to hear some detail of the Belgrano and ARA Santa Fe losses.
Thanks.
It could have been a Stromberg Corporation tanker, attempting to capture the submarine by opening it's bow mouth and swallowing the sub whole. This was demonstrated in The Spy Who Loved Me.
You should have left the last sentance off. Only true geeks would have got the reference.
LOL !
Almost 20 years to the day since Greenville creamed the Ehime Maru.
Thanks for presenting these Captain.
Fantastic speech. Blind boat surfaced and collided with smth in 'very busy' area. This boat is blind and deaf. Even WWI vessel would hear smth around but 1st class Japanese vessel nowadays does not. Really it tooks smth to explain that, congratulations!
Glad you enjoyed it
Japanese Captain to Artemis: “I’m sore yu hit me.”
Hi Jive! I saw in a news report a picture where the sail appears to be slightly bent out of vertical... If that’s the case she’s out for a very long time I’m afraid! Keep up the good work the channel is amazing
"Soryu" is a cursed submarine. It's known to we Japanese.
2008 Five people were electrocuted during construction.
2012 One sailor drowned on the bridge after diving.
2013 One officer attempted suicide with a pistol on board.
2021 Collision with a cargo ship while surfacing, three people were injured.
Ouch, that is a troubled service history. I can certainly see where the reputation would come from.
The lead boat?
Maybe it wasn't good to give a same name as the aircraft carrier that sank in Midway…
Great video Jive, thank you!
This is great this is posted so early and I'm listening and getting all my information and this is awesome thank you thank you thank you
Its funny Mr Brief, as soon as I saw this story, I looked to your feed for insight, Thanks again!!
Excellent explainer vid! I’m relieved the crew made it. Subs have a bad habit of taking all hands when something goes wrong.
I start my new job with Submarines next week. I can't say what I'll be doing...but it's going to be sweet and involves some awesome training! I'll probably be going through your white board videos again very soon!
Very clear and precise information in the light of what is known about this event - that could have been so much worse. I learned a great deal. Thanks.
If the contact had a bow on aspect then its propulsion noise may have been masked by its hull.
A bow aspect will do that. good point.
Bow wake at 10 knots plus at short range would be very loud though surely?
@@stevenlarratt3638 Underwater sound propagation can be... tricky. Modern subs carry what amounts to nearly a supercomputer to do the data work and make sense of what comes in via sonar
@@stevenlarratt3638 depends on sound conditions and contact density. Have been south of Italy and tracking contacts at east end of med but did not hear a carrier close aboard until we broke through the layer. Emergency deep... top of sail area is quite a bit higher than sonar array in bow. Lots to consider, including bottom bounce and relative speed of closure.
@@merrillalbury8214 getting run over by a carrier... that musta been a brown alert moment. you coulda just asked the russians what that's like, don't need to relive it yourself XD
I am commenting to increase the engagement! 😁 Love the vids!
Awesome! Thank you!
I'm liking and heating your comment not because I agree with your even like, but For the Algorithm! (lolz)
Regardless of the circumstances, there's at least one person who is about to switch careers in the near future.
Tis but a scratch!
CO is gone, collisions are always the end of a sub drivers career.
I've heard of a couple of Captains getting promoted after running aground or having a collision
@@1stpogo "promoted" out of Command.
@@ScottKenny1978 exactly
Great brief for a Skimmer, thank you for sharing.
Have you / or would you do a video on the Kursk? That is the only big submarine incident I remember because It was a big thing on the news when I was a kid. Absoluetly love your longer videos!
Hi,very interesting material. Very profesional and matter of factly. Thanks to youre channel i learned alot about submarines. Really interesting stuff. I have a question that is somehow related to the topic. Did you had a chance to watch the film "Estonia: The Find That Changes Everything" ? It is a 5 part documentary about the sinking of MS Estonia. The makers made a dive to it's wreck and found a hole in the ship that is a mystery, wasn't mention in official investigation. To some people it look like it was caused by a collision with a submarine. I have no clue what to think about it. Hence my question. Did you heard about it? If so, do have you any opinions about it?
Regards
Ka-razy Ivan!!! The Sovs generally did a 360 degree turn to clear their baffles.
I really hope the navy is sufficiently advanced that the review of this has the possibility of concluding the CO did everything by the book and it was an amazing mix of coincidences that could not reasonably have been anticipated nor did standard operating procedures in fact do so. In which case they are exonerated rather than instant career death because that seems manifestly unjust IF that is in fact the only reasonable conclusion.
It seems so outrageous that it obviously WAS very unlucky. Just because the result is disastrous does not of itself mean negligence on the part of the CO.
Nice to hear your voice again, Jive. I've been away from your channel for a while.
Cheers
There is a Captain that will be relieved of duty...but...he can still walk away knowing no life was lost.
It is a high traffic area...I do not want to be in front of that Board of Inquiry!!!
Thank you... I would be interested if you do a follow up or in another video, is how would you identify that shallow layer and what the normal actions would have been in response to a shallow layer. Also, having had such a collision what would have been the expected actions of the crew, and specifically from a sonar perspective.
Excellent synopsis & discussion, thanks. Reminds me somewhat of the HARTFORD and NEW ORLEANS collision at the entrance of the Persian Gulf. The SSN restoration was costly, lengthy and ugly.
do all those key words in the description help the video show up on searches?
Also, would having cameras on the hull of the submarine help in that kind of situation?
maybe the cameras would provide too little of a benefit when the methods available are good enough if used correctly...
My eldest brother was serving on the USS Voge in '76 when they ran over a Soviet sub that was trying to tear off a sonic bouy they were towing, and the helmsman miscalculated and ran the sub under the frigate. Several people on the sub died--the conning tower was almost destroyed--and the Voge lost all propulsion. Lost her screws, I think. Incidents like this were not uncommon during the Cold War.
My grandpa was in the IJN and my older brother is in the current JMSDF on an Izumo-Class helicopter carrier. We're a big navy family going way back to the beginning. I'm from Okinawa but permanently in the US now.
I've watched a lot of sub movies in my time and the plot never included this, lol.
Interesting stuff mate.
This seems like something that could be solved with some type of drone or cabled buoy to look around on the surface while the boat stays deep.
Not a bad idea! Or a small buoyant sonar tethered to the sub that can get above the thermal water layer or ever to the surface (with a camera).
I've seen this type of thermal layer while SCUBA diving (called the thermocline) and I can totally understand how sonar would have a hard time "seeing" through it.
Don't forget that a sufficiently large vessel, especially something shaped like a tanker or bulk carrier, can mask its own propellor noise behind its bow if it is facing you directly.
Yes, I should have mentioned that in the view. Great point.
In the future advanced navies will download the AIS app.
Oh trust me, people have them, but it's hard to get cell service when all the hatches are shut
Is there ever a scenario in something like this. That the Captains career isn’t over?
If he can demonstrate that he did everything perfectly, and that whatever went wrong was completely beyond his control and reasonable expectations, then maybe he could survive it, but that is a REALLY high bar to clear. If nothing else, the Navy is going to want to demonstrate that someone is taking the fall for this, and if isn't Captain, it'll be an Admiral... he's kinda boned
@@talltroll7092 if he was negligent he'll be fired. if he wasnt he'll probably sail a desk the rest of his career.
Harakiri is also a possibility.
According to what I heard on NHK news, the submarine lost communication link, so they were using cell phone at last.
Did that report also mention the sonar being partially offline, or am I misremembering?
Holy cow! They were lucky under the circumstances! Thank you for all that information, I learned so much!
You bet!
They fake up the incident to claim insurance for new submarine's spoiler.
*Entire crew also claims for whiplash*
They are Japanese, please don't accuse they doing Korean acts
The Japanese would hold a press conference with a groveling apology.
@@JENKEM1000 Korean sub has its own permanent problem steel hull disintegrated. The result of trying to copy German tech with no match up.
The name of the sub really speaks for itself. :) Nice analytics! I personally think the Sonar Man had too much Sake. ;)
Fair enough!
Yikes! Hopefully everyone is OK. That could have been really bad.
Great video Jive!!!
Glad you enjoyed it
We frequently cleared the baffles to port and starboard when below busy shipping lanes
I sanitized this video as not to give away methods.
@@SubBrief you got to look both ways before crossing the street, Cap't. That shouldn't be giving away a procedure, that should be common sense. 🤷🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️👍🏾
Could you please make a video about different dive plane configurations? There are basically 3 types. Bowplanes, "Eyebrownplanes" or how you want to call them and Fairwater planes. On my knowledge (I have read a book called "Concepts in submarine design") There are many more aspects than just what the binary thinking popular science guys everywere in the Internet explain. As an example I found out, that Fairwaterplanes increase the bow pitch-up at higher speeds because they are mounted high and with their resistance this creates a lever arm. Also as an example Bowplanes have a big advantage in that you can retract them at high speeds because you dont need them and you have less resistance. Also planes on the longitudinal position of COG can control depth independent of the stern planes that (at least at low speeds) control pitch without any effect on depth. More Forward planes create less interference with the propulsor. Fairwaterplanes even have no effect on the wake at all. And there are many more things like surface suction effects and sonar interference from hydrodynamic noise. It would be really cool if you would make a video on that topic that rules them all, busts all myths, and shows that there is not "right way" to do it and every submarine has different requirements. On quora and so on they just all say that Bow Planes are better for ice operation.
I asked it before would you consider doing a video on the collision many moons ago between the US sub amd and the japanese student fishery boat off Hawaii that culminated in a huge loss of life on the surface vessel? Great video as always and take care.
Baffles clear takes me back to the MS-DOS days of playing Tom Clancy’s Red Storm Rising.
I like your stuff. Keep it up.
Very informative.