It's probably worth saying that Niven had the Kzinti as major players in his Known Space series of novels (the Man-Kzin Wars books are shown in the video), of which Ringworld is probably the best known. BALLER series of books!
In Sean's defense, that's beyond the scope of this channel, so I can forgive him not going deeper into Niven's Canon. I was chuffed to see the amount of coverage that Niven did get here!
They also fulfill a similar (though obviously not identical) role in that series, first as the "historical" enemy, then as the grudging semi-ally. A lot of Niven's writing doesn't hold up for me, but his alien ideas were some of the most interesting and well-developed out there.
This video gave me a hit of nostalgia. I grew up on Niven and Pournelle. I still have all my Known Space books in storage but haven't read them in ages.
By the way, Larry Niven and Dorothy Fontana are and were very dear friends of mine. Larry read and approved the feature film "Star Trek: The Lions of the Night" and the one hour episode "Kilkenny Cats". He said that my depiction of the Kzinti in "Star Trek" held true to his initial vision of these sentient felinoids. I also gave Manny Coto a 65 page color illustrated treatment (series bible) that totally integrated the "Star Trek" and "Known Universe" timelines.
@@toyotatacoma1616 So do I, Toyota. Sean is right, I intended this to be the first CGI animated "Star Trek" movie. It featured George Takei as the captain of the "U.S.S. Enterprise-B". His first officer was Commander Pavel Chekov. Scotty was teaching Advanced Warp Engineering at Starfleet Academy and Uhura was now the Head of Starfleet Intelligence. Dorothy Fontana proof read and edited the script, then she personally handed copies to George, Walter, Majel, and Nichelle. George, Majel, and Nichelle read it and were immediately on board. I wanted Nicholas Meyer in the director's chair. I Thought this would be an excellent way to introduce a whole new round of "Enterprise-B' adventures, either as movies or another series.
@@JimmyDiggs Thank you for writing out such a detailed response, sir! That really does sound right up my alley, and with so many great names attached to it too. As someone who’s always loved Niven’s worldbuilding, animated Star Trek, and the Excelsior class, this is a wild, and sort of bittersweet thing to learn about. I just have to ask if this script exists online in any form?
@@toyotatacoma1616 The scripts are not available to the public because I never give up on a project. As a matter of fact, I am currently rewriting "Kilkenny Cats" as a possible submission to "Star Trek: Picard" ---- IF it gets a fourth season. This would make a lot of sense to me, when you consider the Kzinti reference in the first season of "Picard." If, however, it becomes absolutely certain that the "Star Trek" franchise will never produce "Kilkenny Kats", Larry Niven has asked if I would be willing to rewrite it as a short story for the next "Man-Kzin Wars" anthology. I will, but I do think it deserves to be seen on the screen. But you never know ---- I've been in contact with the producers of the proposed (upcoming?) "Ringworld" series. On my RUclips channel you can find more pitch videos on "Kilkenny Cats" and "The Lions of the Night."
@@JimmyDiggs Please do this. This would be awesome. Or try to get it on the Captain Pike show, or the rumoured Star Trek Legacy. (I would also like if Trek clarifies what the Man-Kzin wars really were as I am fascinated with early human space flight history in the series.)
What always got me about "The Slaver Weapon" was how well Spock, Uhura, and Sulu just slotted into the places made for Nessus and the Pompendreos. Barely any adaptation needed.
Except the Kzinti didn't amputate Uhura's arm and eat it as they did in Niven's original version of the story! they threatened such in "The Slaver Weapon", but didn't carry through their threat...for obvious reasons!
The sad, hunch backed Kzinti were the telepaths in the Niven Known Space universe, they were always the ones that looked bedraggled. There was a great sketch of the Kzin in the Niven novels showing a barrel bodied cat with the folding ears.
Kzinti telepaths look like that because they are addicted to a toxic drug that enhances their telepathy but atrophies their muscles and saps their will.
"Ringworld" series and Speaker-to-Animals is where I was first introduced to the Kzinti.According to that, it wasn't so much that they saw their females as barely above animals, it's that they actually weren't much above animals and were barely sapient.
In the Man-Kzin Wars books, there is an episode(?) where a human finds himself in a galactic zoo that was populated maybe 100,000 years ago, including telepathic Neanderthals. He also finds Kzinti from that same age, and the females are sentient. It turns out that the Patriarchy bred intelligence out of the females, through a eugenics program. So, the females are little better than breeding pets, but thatbis not through an inherent disposition toward a lack of intelligence . (I think Stirling wrote that story)
As others have stated, the low intelligence of Kzinti females was the direct result of selective breeding directed by the Patriarchy. They made their females that way through the worst sort of Eugenics.
@@rhoetusochten4211 However I have always questioned how non-intelligent the females are. After all they DO have to protect and care for intelligent male kits. And that would take something more than instinct!
A fun fact about why the animated Kzinti wear pink uniforms. The director of the animated shows was color blind. He literally could not tell pink from gray, which is the color he envisioned, and no one thought to ask him about his choices, until after some of the episodes had aired.
Fun fact: Here's another Larry Niven/Star Trek connection: Niven and co-author Jerry Pournelle wrote "The Mote in God's Eye," which features the spaceship MacArthur inspired by an AMT model called the "Leif Erickson Galactic Cruiser." Although not a Star Trek kit, it was designed by Matt Jefferies.
I have been a Kzinti fan since the Animated Series. I noticed the Kzin Starfleet officer in Lower Decks. Bring on more! I enjoyed the character "Speaker to Animals", a Kzin who is involved in Niven's novel, "Ringworld".
In Star Fleet Battles, the Kzinti were known for their drone attack space crafts. They would overwhelm their enemies with superior numbers (similar to the US Navy's swarm attacks.)
The Starfleet Command games on PC kind of rolled the Kzinti, the Tzen'Kethi and a few others into the Mirak Star League. Dealing with missile after missile after missile made them a nightmare to come up against.
As I recall the 1st edition of SFB (before the volumes or expansions) the Kzinti were the first faction to use Attack Shuttles (star fighters). Drones were used by both Klingons and Kzinti.
@wmarclocher True, drones weren't exclusive to Kzinti, but unlike others were their main battle weapons, and could launch many times more (and of more different types) than any other faction
To the point made about the Caitians being seen in live action in the Kelvin movies, there was also a Catian representative at the Camp Khitomer Accords in Star Trek VI.
More to the point, they also featured in Niven's "Ringworld", which is arguably his best known work. It still holds its own to this day, unlike a lot of other sci fi from the era which now seems dated.
"also featured" nothing. They're Niven's. He created the Kzinti for known space, and they are a big part of it. The only reason they exist in Trek, at all, is because Niven adapted one of his Known Space stories into an episode of The Animated Series. Niven wrote that episode and replaced the main characters from the story but kept the Kzinti as the villains. But Kzinti were in Known Space long before they were in Trek.
As a collector of the Star Fleet Battles system, and I have an awful lot of the manuals and ship system displays, I need to make two points. 1 : I love using Kzinti, they're fast and close-quarter fighters with a powerful carrier force and drones by the bucketload! 2 : Their primary foes are Lyrans, the game pronounces them 'Leah-un's.'
I played the Kzinti is many tournaments; the TCC in SFB and a Kzinti three ship squadron in Federation Commander and enjoyed every moment... won a few of them too :)
The Kzinti Wars have been one of my favorite series since the early 90's and I have been watching Star Trek since I was a kid back in the mid 70's. Only found out they had a tie in a year ago. I would love to see a live action series of Star Trek Kzinti Wars or at least a high quality animated series dedicated to it. That would be EPIC!
I've been a Larry Niven fan for a long time, and have read about half of what he's written. (Many of his old stuff was no longer available by the time I started reading old school scifi in the early 90s.) The part about the Kzinti fighting humans during their sub-light days was from the Man-Kzin Wars stories, and kind of wedged into the Star Trek universe. In Larry Niven's stories, humans began traveling in sub-light transports without any weapons, but had fusion technology in their ship that utilized high powered lasers, and those lasers, not thought by the Kzinti to be weapons, were able to be used as powerful weapons, and it caught them by surprise. That was how humanity won the first Man-Kzin War.
Well how they won the first battle. They then built up their fleets and defenses in preparation for the first wars on slaught. This would be about the time ARM was racing to undo the damage they’d done to humanity in the name of peace.
Okay. What the hell is 'Kilkenny Cats'? I've never heard of it before, but the concept of the crew of the NX-01 visiting my town is something I really want to see happen, and fills me with absolute joy. 😁
"THERE were two cats of Kilkenny, Each thought there was one cat too many, So they fought and they fit, And they scratched and they bit, Till, excepting their nails And the tips of their tails, Instead of two cats there weren't any. " Classic Mother Goose.
I was so enthralled in '73 when the animated series came out. TOS was in full rerun mode in syndication. This was also the year of the Equicon '73. It was a great year to be a fan.
Yeah, I would have started with that bullet point, clearly emphasizing they were the creation of Larry Niven almost a decade before they were shoehorned into Trek. Really, the one fact that really "surprised" me was the friendship between Fontanna and Niven, that it was at her urging that ultimately resulted in their inclusion.
I have a very strong suspicion that the Ferengi were supposed to be the Kzinti. Some of the early dialogue suggests this, like in Farpoint, Picard suggested that the Ferengi might eat the inhabitants tasty. In the last outpost, they moved with the hunch, like Animated series Kzinti. Either the Kzinti custumes would have been too tricky, or they just couldn't secure the rights, at the time.
not about rights. they clearly just didn't want to bring them back. MAYBe costumes wouldve been an issue, but the ferengi makeup took several hours to do each time, so it was no small feat either.
@@ferninthehouse yeah the Kzinti were never considered for TNG. Unfortunately Roddenberry ‘s lawyer whispered in his ear constantly that he wouldn’t be taken seriously if he was still connected to a cartoon show, which is hilarious because the lawyer got $1500 in 1973 money for every episode just for… Being a lawyer I guess! There are a lot of pre-production sketches for the Ferengi, it was something that they had specific ideas about.
I am going to have to reread them, it's been 20 years or so, I think. If I recall, I bought my first M-KWars book when I couldn't afford the latest Wing Commander game.
Been waiting for this one. Before watching, I just want to throw out there that my personal first encounter with the kzin was not in star trek at all, but in Larry Niven's sci-fi novel series Ringworld. I became a trek fan later and was delighted/perplexed to see them presented in trek in any capacity. I still don't fully understand the relationship between Niven and trek, hoping you touch on that here. Cheers!
I have to protest on Larry Niven's behalf. The Kzinti should not be framed as part of the Star Trek universe. They are a crossover from Niven's Known Space universe. The entire Kzinti backstory is established in Niven's work. He's got this backward. Filmation got the rights to do Larry Niven's "The Soft Weapon" as a STAS. When Amarillo Design Bureau later negotiated the license to create their game Star Fleet Battles, the Kzinti were part of that intellectual property. All of these licenses have narrow application: only the Kzinti, only established canon. ADB are extremely sensitive about their license and might well have a fit over this video.
Important note: In Niven's books, the Kzinti Telepaths got that ability by using an addictive drug. Being an addict to do a (necessary) job lowered the user's status and left him wiped out after use.
Kzinti telepaths were identified as cubs and addicted to sthondat lymph extract, which amplified their telepathy; the extract didn't _give_ them telepathy.
The ratcats were around long before any appearance in a Star Trek show. In fact, the first Niven book featuring them came out about the same time as ST:TOS (1966). They first appeared in ST:TAS in 1973. They are mentioned in STP (2020).
TAS was my introduction to Star Trek during it's original run, so this series holds a special place for me. I welcome more and more TAS content in the future!
And here was my fav tv sf Star Trek with the Kzinti. With a Slaver box. Adapting Soft Weapon which is in what I consider to be best collection of Niven short fiction. NEUTRON Star. And yes I agree how well it worked with Spock Uhura and Sulu. Though I have been disappointed at not seeing more about the Slavers on screen. I need to check out the novels Sean mentioned.
I know the Kzinti from the first edition of the board/miniatures game "Star Fleet Battles" (loosely based on the Star Trek Universe) as the first faction to use Attack Shuttles. When the computer game version came out they could no longer be called the Kzinti due to copyright issues. I think they were called the "Merak" in that. Although I had seen every episode of Star Trek TAS when it originally aired in 1974, I did not know while I was playing the game that, that is where they debuted in the Star Trek Universe.
I was aware of the Kzinti before I saw them on Trek (I didn't see TAS until some years after it was broadcast) I read most of the Larry Niven stories many years ago. They were described as a cross between a bear and a tiger with batwing ears. They fought a series of wars conquering a number of Human colony worlds before being pushed back when Humans discovered FTL drives. Probably the most horrifying thing I recall them doing in the novels was to invite dissident Humans on the occupied colonies to a dinner. The Kzinti would then dine on the dissidents children.
Actually more like 7ft tall rats, and humans didn't discover hyperdrives, they were purchased from alien traders that were passing through a colony worlds system
Loved seeing this, and especially Sean's enthusiasm. My one quibble is about the Time Trap. The novel is NOT a novelization of the TAS episode. Yes, they had the same names, but they are not connected beyond featuring the TOS crew and Klingons. As to why the novel is called The Time Trap, well...that might spoil the ending of the novel. I personally loved the novel when I was younger and enjoyed the plot of it.
Though only mentioned in The Slaver Weapon, The Slavers in the Niven books have a huge history, which would stand against most Trek history. It’s an amazing series of books.
And could be easily integrated in to ST cannon. The Slaver Empire ruled the galaxy over a Billion Years Ago until a civil war erupted wiping out almost all intelligent life. Now cut to the beings that seeded planets with their DNA that Captain Picard discovered in the Next Generation episode, The Chase and what the Holo projection said about their explorations, " Life evolved on my planet before all others in this part of the galaxy. We left our world, explored the stars, and found none like ourselves." Could that be because it was wiped out a long time before them?
It would've made an interesting story to adapt the story about the time they opened a stasis box to find a living Slaver. They were immensely powerful telepaths. I don't recall the extent of it, but they could've enslaved an entire planet of people (with some technology to amplify the signal)
I'll sign that petition! Having been a cat lover all my life, I was intrigued by the description of the Kzinti in Starfleet Battles and have been wondering for a while now if there was a connection to the Man / Kzin Wars novels. Thank you for clearing that up for me.
The Kzinti originated in the Ringworld series. "The Kzinti were also written by Niven into the Star Trek universe, appearing first in Star Trek: The Animated Series. Similar characters also appeared in Star Trek: Lower Decks and in Star Fleet Universe, as well as material for Star Trek: Enterprise that was never produced because of the series' cancellation." - Wikipedia.
This is fantastic. I love Niven's books, I am a die hard fan from the beginning. I was puzzled when I saw Star Trek and Kzinti in the same title. As a child of the 60's I watched ST religiously and then when my childhood friend introduced me to Niven in the early 70's I was in heaven. The Kzinti are brilliant creatures, its always hilarious to read about who they attacked too soon and always lost the war. I'm curious why ST never had a story about the Enterprise discovering the Ring World.
There's also the entire thing that led to the Ferasans in STO that are, essentially, modified version of the Kzinti due to the entire rights mess there and are hinted to have fought a war with their cousins while having had issues with the Caitan and Federation...now being fully in the KDF, having joined up with the Gorn war
Possibly iffy pedantry here, but I believe 'Kzinti' is just the plural (and adjectival form) of 'Kzin', so you could talk about one Kzin (an individual), two Kzinti (a group), the Kzinti Patriachy (a polity), or The Kzin.
There WERE two Felinoids in the gallery one with the lion-like coloring of a Caitian and the other all black BUT neither were called Caitian on screen!
Great to see the Kzinti. Good job. Minor mistake on #11. In your article you correctly talk about the Star FLEET Universe but in the video you both say and have the title card the Star TREK Universe, which may have sounded a bit confusing when you go on to talk about the great games produced by Amarillo Design Bureau under the Star Fleet Universe license. Still great to see them mentioned as I am a fan of the universe they created.
Number 12: The reason why the Kzinti wore pink uniforms in "The Slaver Weapon" has been a source of debate for some years. Dorothy Fontana explained that it was due to director Hal Sutherland's color-blindness, while storyboard artist Bob Kline has claimed that it was colorist Irvin Kaplan's fondness of bright colors that led to the Kzinti being colored that way. 🖖😎👍
@@GSBarlev debunked by me and my writing partner Rich Schepis I believe 😜 We also debunked the idea that Larry Niven was upset at the pink colors. He literally told us he had no idea where that came from because if you read information about the Kizinti that was published before TAS their home planet is very colorful and the hull of one of their ships was described as pink! While it wasn’t done on purpose, TAS seem to have got it right!
My theory about the wars: 1. The Wars happened after first contact and might be some long term stasis/colonization ships of the Kzinti. 2. The war was not so much between Humans and Kzinti but mainly between Vulcans protecting Humans, and the Kzinti. Maybe humans assisted with some DY-1000 cruisers. 3. Maybe, there were a few encounters between the Kzinti and human crews on DY-1000 ships before the world war or during. But due to the Kzinti annihilating human ships, nobody knew it was the Kzinti. Basically, humans thought of "unknown catastrophe destroyed our spaceships". 4. Maybe, in Enterprise, at first, the humans complied with the Vulcans extremely careful procedures hindering space exploration, because humans met the Kzinti.
Fun bit of trivia: The episode _The Slaver Weapon_ is the only episode of the original series era (which kinda includes TAS) that does not contain an appearance by Capt Kirk.
@Trek Culture- hey, Sean, the idea of the wars being at sublight speed isn't quite as outlandish as you might think... Star Fleet Battles, the game you mentioned (the Star Fleet Universe) explains it pretty well. Impulse engines are a simple form of warp engine that can move the ship at sublight and create a warp envelope to enable FTL travel - but not one stable enough for the maneuvers and energy weapon usage of combat, so they have to do combat at sublight. Note that the Phoenix in First Contact accelerates without a separate engine during its warp test, and that combat in Enterprise is sublight. But by TOS, combat at FTL is possible (Balance of Terror, Journey to Babel). This also explains how the Romulans can have a Star Empire, while still using "sublight" ships.
I found it amusing when I was watching the animated series one fine Saturday morning, decades ago, to find that the Kzinti had somehow wandered out of Larry Niven's Ringworld/Known Space universe and into the Star Trek universe.
I've always thought the design of Mattel's animated Flash Gordon figure line would have lent itself very well to the characters and aliens of Star Trek:TAS. Especially the Kzinti.
The Kzinti first appeared in the short story "The Warriors" in the anthology "The Shape of Space" by Larry Niven. Kzin females are not sentient. The telepaths are lower class and don't practice very good hygeine. Niven also wrote another short story, "the Soft Weapon." in his Known Space universe, that introduced the Slaver weapon. This story was directly lifted and placed in the Star Trek universe in the animated series, with only the protagonists change to Enterprise personnel.
I remember growing up in middle school and early High School reading some of my dad's old man-kzin Wars books of course at that time they were already close to 30 years old and all those books were in various states of disrepair I think I had almost the entire collection back then. At this point those books are probably 50 years old by now I can't even remember what happened to them. Either way it's interesting to learn that they were in Star Trek.
Okay I went in expecting to have to comment about not mentioning the whole SFB thing and right off the bat, you mention the SFB universe. From one Sean to another, High Freakin Five.
Franz Joseph was not able to incorporate stuff from the movies because the Technical Manual was published years before the movies. Only TOS and TAS existed at the time
If you really want to know about the Kzinti, read "The Man/Kzin Wars" - an anthology book with stories by Larry Niven, Stephen Hickman, Poul Anderson, and Dean Ing (That series has balooned to 13 books) - The first book includes Niven's very FIRST Story about the Kzin, long before he wrote The Slaver Weapon or the Ringworld books, called "The Warriors."
I first ran into the Kzin Speaker-to-Animals (occupational name, he translated languages of other species) in Ringworld, and later again in The Ringworld Engineers, by which time he had earned the name Chmeee .
I watched the original broadcast of The Slaver Weapon. I was 10 yrs old at the time. A couple years later I was reading Niven's books and said, "So that's where Kzinti came from." I'm a fan of mixing ideas like that, but only when a real quality writer like DC Fontana handles it. Otherwise it tends to be expensive fan-fic.
Having watched TAS and read the Ringworld books when they came out, I never connected the two until I saw it in the video title, in writing. Niven rocks!
I still maintain that at the beginning of the council scene at the end of ST IV, the one with the whales, that a Kzinti is on screen for a moment in a Starfleet uniform. The fur and the ears sure do match estabilshed Kzinti.
The funny thing about the Kzin is that they have a complete history outside of the Star Trek universe. Speaker-to-Animals... er, sorry, I mean Chmee... would not be pleased. LOL
In a little known Kzinti incursion into Federation space their advance was halted when several freighters beamed entire cargo holds filled with cardboard boxes into the Kzinti invasion fleet.
Somewhere in one of my boxes, stored away but ready to be unpacked when we get into our new house, I have a pewter Kzinti starship that came out for the old FASA RP game....
I had the Kzinti Carrier miniature. We played a one-off battle where my Carrier was supposed to be backed by 2 Romulan Cruisers against a Federation Dreadnaught. My "partner" turned and ran at the first opportunity. I still managed to win. The Dreadnaught player was overconfident and came up nice and slow... I unleashed all my drones and shuttles. 😁
Seán, I'm glad you mentioned DC Fontana. She's one of my favorite Trek novelists. I would love to see a Trek Culture vid about the women who shaped Trek behind the scenes, such as DC Fontana and Jeri Taylor. Star Trek would not be what it is without them, and, I'm sure, many others. If Jeri Taylor hadn't come onboard (see what I did there😅) TNG in the 3rd season, I'm convinced that Star Trek would have ended with TNG. Whaddya think?
It's probably worth saying that Niven had the Kzinti as major players in his Known Space series of novels (the Man-Kzin Wars books are shown in the video), of which Ringworld is probably the best known. BALLER series of books!
I love these books. Probably my fav!😊
In Sean's defense, that's beyond the scope of this channel, so I can forgive him not going deeper into Niven's Canon. I was chuffed to see the amount of coverage that Niven did get here!
Ringworld is one of my favorite sci-fi novels!
They also fulfill a similar (though obviously not identical) role in that series, first as the "historical" enemy, then as the grudging semi-ally. A lot of Niven's writing doesn't hold up for me, but his alien ideas were some of the most interesting and well-developed out there.
This video gave me a hit of nostalgia. I grew up on Niven and Pournelle. I still have all my Known Space books in storage but haven't read them in ages.
By the way, Larry Niven and Dorothy Fontana are and were very dear friends of mine. Larry read and approved the feature film "Star Trek: The Lions of the Night" and the one hour episode "Kilkenny Cats". He said that my depiction of the Kzinti in "Star Trek" held true to his initial vision of these sentient felinoids. I also gave Manny Coto a 65 page color illustrated treatment (series bible) that totally integrated the "Star Trek" and "Known Universe" timelines.
Lions of the Night sounds absolutely awesome! I wish it got made.
@@toyotatacoma1616 So do I, Toyota. Sean is right, I intended this to be the first CGI animated "Star Trek" movie. It featured George Takei as the captain of the "U.S.S. Enterprise-B". His first officer was Commander Pavel Chekov. Scotty was teaching Advanced Warp Engineering at Starfleet Academy and Uhura was now the Head of Starfleet Intelligence. Dorothy Fontana proof read and edited the script, then she personally handed copies to George, Walter, Majel, and Nichelle. George, Majel, and Nichelle read it and were immediately on board. I wanted Nicholas Meyer in the director's chair. I Thought this would be an excellent way to introduce a whole new round of "Enterprise-B' adventures, either as movies or another series.
@@JimmyDiggs Thank you for writing out such a detailed response, sir! That really does sound right up my alley, and with so many great names attached to it too. As someone who’s always loved Niven’s worldbuilding, animated Star Trek, and the Excelsior class, this is a wild, and sort of bittersweet thing to learn about. I just have to ask if this script exists online in any form?
@@toyotatacoma1616 The scripts are not available to the public because I never give up on a project. As a matter of fact, I am currently rewriting "Kilkenny Cats" as a possible submission to "Star Trek: Picard" ---- IF it gets a fourth season. This would make a lot of sense to me, when you consider the Kzinti reference in the first season of "Picard." If, however, it becomes absolutely certain that the "Star Trek" franchise will never produce "Kilkenny Kats", Larry Niven has asked if I would be willing to rewrite it as a short story for the next "Man-Kzin Wars" anthology. I will, but I do think it deserves to be seen on the screen. But you never know ---- I've been in contact with the producers of the proposed (upcoming?) "Ringworld" series. On my RUclips channel you can find more pitch videos on "Kilkenny Cats" and "The Lions of the Night."
@@JimmyDiggs Please do this. This would be awesome. Or try to get it on the Captain Pike show, or the rumoured Star Trek Legacy.
(I would also like if Trek clarifies what the Man-Kzin wars really were as I am fascinated with early human space flight history in the series.)
What always got me about "The Slaver Weapon" was how well Spock, Uhura, and Sulu just slotted into the places made for Nessus and the Pompendreos. Barely any adaptation needed.
I read that and what went through my mind was not "barely any adaptation needed", but "Barely an Inconvenience "!
@@KatraMoo I feel like every time I hear “barely” at all I do that now! Wow, wow, wow…………..wow.
@@KatraMoo Who doesn't love Ryan George. And now I have to resist the temptation to edit my comment.
@@josephwisniewski3673 I'm a Star Trek fan( as are we all here). My advice on editing your comment is: "Resistance is Futile! Set Phasers on Fun!"
Except the Kzinti didn't amputate Uhura's arm and eat it as they did in Niven's original version of the story! they threatened such in "The Slaver Weapon", but didn't carry through their threat...for obvious reasons!
The joy in Seán’s voice during the first sentence is amazing!
Seán's endless supply of joy is pretty amazing generally. He's just a wonderful dude.
Whenever I'm depressed, I like to watch old Ups and Downs videos
no wonder why the caitan doc is so grumpy.
The sad, hunch backed Kzinti were the telepaths in the Niven Known Space universe, they were always the ones that looked bedraggled. There was a great sketch of the Kzin in the Niven novels showing a barrel bodied cat with the folding ears.
They have Barreled chests because their rib cage is reinforced with cross member like ribs.
Kzinti telepaths look like that because they are addicted to a toxic drug that enhances their telepathy but atrophies their muscles and saps their will.
"Ringworld" series and Speaker-to-Animals is where I was first introduced to the Kzinti.According to that, it wasn't so much that they saw their females as barely above animals, it's that they actually weren't much above animals and were barely sapient.
In the Man-Kzin Wars books, there is an episode(?) where a human finds himself in a galactic zoo that was populated maybe 100,000 years ago, including telepathic Neanderthals.
He also finds Kzinti from that same age, and the females are sentient.
It turns out that the Patriarchy bred intelligence out of the females, through a eugenics program.
So, the females are little better than breeding pets, but thatbis not through an inherent disposition toward a lack of intelligence .
(I think Stirling wrote that story)
@@rhoetusochten4211 Also on the Ringworld there are Kizinti who had been there since before the Patriachy and their females were still sentient.
As others have stated, the low intelligence of Kzinti females was the direct result of selective breeding directed by the Patriarchy. They made their females that way through the worst sort of Eugenics.
@@jimg9820 Yes, I remember reading that.
Speaker thought it was a novel experience as I recall.
@@rhoetusochten4211 However I have always questioned how non-intelligent the females are. After all they DO have to protect and care for intelligent male kits. And that would take something more than instinct!
A fun fact about why the animated Kzinti wear pink uniforms. The director of the animated shows was color blind. He literally could not tell pink from gray, which is the color he envisioned, and no one thought to ask him about his choices, until after some of the episodes had aired.
Fun fact:
Here's another Larry Niven/Star Trek connection:
Niven and co-author Jerry Pournelle wrote "The Mote in God's Eye," which features the spaceship MacArthur inspired by an AMT model called the "Leif Erickson Galactic Cruiser." Although not a Star Trek kit, it was designed by Matt Jefferies.
They also co-wrote Lucifer's Hammer.
@@MichaelClark-uw7ex and The Burning City, among others.
I've been a fan of both Star Trek and Larry Niven since the sixties. Loved this!
I, too. Both are beautiful scifi universes with lot of depth.
I have been a Kzinti fan since the Animated Series. I noticed the Kzin Starfleet officer in Lower Decks. Bring on more! I enjoyed the character "Speaker to Animals", a Kzin who is involved in Niven's novel, "Ringworld".
In Star Fleet Battles, the Kzinti were known for their drone attack space crafts. They would overwhelm their enemies with superior numbers (similar to the US Navy's swarm attacks.)
The Starfleet Command games on PC kind of rolled the Kzinti, the Tzen'Kethi and a few others into the Mirak Star League. Dealing with missile after missile after missile made them a nightmare to come up against.
As I recall the 1st edition of SFB (before the volumes or expansions) the Kzinti were the first faction to use Attack Shuttles (star fighters). Drones were used by both Klingons and Kzinti.
@@wmarclocher and to a lesser extent the Federation
@wmarclocher True, drones weren't exclusive to Kzinti, but unlike others were their main battle weapons, and could launch many times more (and of more different types) than any other faction
And fighters/short range phasers up the ying-yang. They were like a Battlestar Galabctica crossover.
To the point made about the Caitians being seen in live action in the Kelvin movies, there was also a Catian representative at the Camp Khitomer Accords in Star Trek VI.
Yup yup
Also in IV
I choose to believe those caitians in Into Darkness are human hybrids.
More to the point, they also featured in Niven's "Ringworld", which is arguably his best known work. It still holds its own to this day, unlike a lot of other sci fi from the era which now seems dated.
"also featured" nothing. They're Niven's. He created the Kzinti for known space, and they are a big part of it. The only reason they exist in Trek, at all, is because Niven adapted one of his Known Space stories into an episode of The Animated Series. Niven wrote that episode and replaced the main characters from the story but kept the Kzinti as the villains. But Kzinti were in Known Space long before they were in Trek.
I would say after seeing Zeb make a live action appearance in the Mandolorian it's more than possible for them to be realised.
As a collector of the Star Fleet Battles system, and I have an awful lot of the manuals and ship system displays, I need to make two points.
1 : I love using Kzinti, they're fast and close-quarter fighters with a powerful carrier force and drones by the bucketload!
2 : Their primary foes are Lyrans, the game pronounces them 'Leah-un's.'
I played the Kzinti is many tournaments; the TCC in SFB and a Kzinti three ship squadron in Federation Commander and enjoyed every moment... won a few of them too :)
The two races resemble each other... but apparently mentioning that in ear shot of either can get messy.
I always loved the Kzinti space control ship. That thing was a monster.
The Kzinti Wars have been one of my favorite series since the early 90's and I have been watching Star Trek since I was a kid back in the mid 70's. Only found out they had a tie in a year ago. I would love to see a live action series of Star Trek Kzinti Wars or at least a high quality animated series dedicated to it. That would be EPIC!
Never hit the Like button so fast, thanks for giving our Kzinti friends the much deserved spotlight!
I've been a Larry Niven fan for a long time, and have read about half of what he's written. (Many of his old stuff was no longer available by the time I started reading old school scifi in the early 90s.) The part about the Kzinti fighting humans during their sub-light days was from the Man-Kzin Wars stories, and kind of wedged into the Star Trek universe. In Larry Niven's stories, humans began traveling in sub-light transports without any weapons, but had fusion technology in their ship that utilized high powered lasers, and those lasers, not thought by the Kzinti to be weapons, were able to be used as powerful weapons, and it caught them by surprise. That was how humanity won the first Man-Kzin War.
I would try used book stores. I've found a few of Niven's books there.
Well how they won the first battle. They then built up their fleets and defenses in preparation for the first wars on slaught. This would be about the time ARM was racing to undo the damage they’d done to humanity in the name of peace.
Okay. What the hell is 'Kilkenny Cats'? I've never heard of it before, but the concept of the crew of the NX-01 visiting my town is something I really want to see happen, and fills me with absolute joy. 😁
"THERE were two cats of Kilkenny,
Each thought there was one cat too many,
So they fought and they fit,
And they scratched and they bit,
Till, excepting their nails
And the tips of their tails,
Instead of two cats there weren't any. "
Classic Mother Goose.
I was so enthralled in '73 when the animated series came out. TOS was in full rerun mode in syndication. This was also the year of the Equicon '73. It was a great year to be a fan.
Equicon is where they first showed the character artwork to the public! And then I believe it was world con that they showed the intro to the show.
It sure was. I didn’t make it in ‘73, but I did get to go in ‘74 and several years thereafter. It felt like nerd heaven. All hail the Trimbles!
as a fan growing up of Alan Dean Foster and Larry Niven i was so happy to see the KZinti brought to Trek
I'm shocked it took you five minutes before mentioning Larry Niven.
Yeah, I would have started with that bullet point, clearly emphasizing they were the creation of Larry Niven almost a decade before they were shoehorned into Trek. Really, the one fact that really "surprised" me was the friendship between Fontanna and Niven, that it was at her urging that ultimately resulted in their inclusion.
The first BBS, That introduced me to the World Wide Web, I joined was called Castle Kzin and the man the developed it was a huge fan of the Kzinti.
I have a very strong suspicion that the Ferengi were supposed to be the Kzinti. Some of the early dialogue suggests this, like in Farpoint, Picard suggested that the Ferengi might eat the inhabitants tasty. In the last outpost, they moved with the hunch, like Animated series Kzinti. Either the Kzinti custumes would have been too tricky, or they just couldn't secure the rights, at the time.
not about rights. they clearly just didn't want to bring them back. MAYBe costumes wouldve been an issue, but the ferengi makeup took several hours to do each time, so it was no small feat either.
@@ferninthehouse yeah the Kzinti were never considered for TNG. Unfortunately Roddenberry ‘s lawyer whispered in his ear constantly that he wouldn’t be taken seriously if he was still connected to a cartoon show, which is hilarious because the lawyer got $1500 in 1973 money for every episode just for… Being a lawyer I guess! There are a lot of pre-production sketches for the Ferengi, it was something that they had specific ideas about.
@@GeekFilter Gene's lawyer was a piece of work.
I highly encourage everyone to read the Man-Kzin Wars by Larry Niven.
I am going to have to reread them, it's been 20 years or so, I think.
If I recall, I bought my first M-KWars book when I couldn't afford the latest Wing Commander game.
Edited by. He didn't write much for them intentionally, never having served in the military and feeling ill-equipped.
We've also seen The Patriarchy labelled on Star Charts in SNW etc, hopefully we finally see a live-action Kzinti.
Been waiting for this one. Before watching, I just want to throw out there that my personal first encounter with the kzin was not in star trek at all, but in Larry Niven's sci-fi novel series Ringworld. I became a trek fan later and was delighted/perplexed to see them presented in trek in any capacity. I still don't fully understand the relationship between Niven and trek, hoping you touch on that here. Cheers!
I just want the powers that be at trek culture to know that letting Sean make whatever video he wants is a decision I support
I have to protest on Larry Niven's behalf. The Kzinti should not be framed as part of the Star Trek universe. They are a crossover from Niven's Known Space universe. The entire Kzinti backstory is established in Niven's work.
He's got this backward. Filmation got the rights to do Larry Niven's "The Soft Weapon" as a STAS. When Amarillo Design Bureau later negotiated the license to create their game Star Fleet Battles, the Kzinti were part of that intellectual property. All of these licenses have narrow application: only the Kzinti, only established canon. ADB are extremely sensitive about their license and might well have a fit over this video.
Important note: In Niven's books, the Kzinti Telepaths got that ability by using an addictive drug. Being an addict to do a (necessary) job lowered the user's status and left him wiped out after use.
Kzinti telepaths were identified as cubs and addicted to sthondat lymph extract, which amplified their telepathy; the extract didn't _give_ them telepathy.
THANK YOU for doing this! I can never get enough of plenty Kzinti.
As a fan of both Trek and Known Space, I was delighted by Niven's adaptation of his own story for ST: AS. Thanks for this trip down memory lane.
The ratcats were around long before any appearance in a Star Trek show. In fact, the first Niven book featuring them came out about the same time as ST:TOS (1966). They first appeared in ST:TAS in 1973. They are mentioned in STP (2020).
TAS was my introduction to Star Trek during it's original run, so this series holds a special place for me. I welcome more and more TAS content in the future!
And here was my fav tv sf Star Trek with the Kzinti. With a Slaver box. Adapting Soft Weapon which is in what I consider to be best collection of Niven short fiction. NEUTRON Star. And yes I agree how well it worked with Spock Uhura and Sulu. Though I have been disappointed at not seeing more about the Slavers on screen. I need to check out the novels Sean mentioned.
I know the Kzinti from the first edition of the board/miniatures game "Star Fleet Battles" (loosely based on the Star Trek Universe) as the first faction to use Attack Shuttles. When the computer game version came out they could no longer be called the Kzinti due to copyright issues. I think they were called the "Merak" in that. Although I had seen every episode of Star Trek TAS when it originally aired in 1974, I did not know while I was playing the game that, that is where they debuted in the Star Trek Universe.
I was aware of the Kzinti before I saw them on Trek (I didn't see TAS until some years after it was broadcast) I read most of the Larry Niven stories many years ago. They were described as a cross between a bear and a tiger with batwing ears.
They fought a series of wars conquering a number of Human colony worlds before being pushed back when Humans discovered FTL drives.
Probably the most horrifying thing I recall them doing in the novels was to invite dissident Humans on the occupied colonies to a dinner. The Kzinti would then dine on the dissidents children.
Actually more like 7ft tall rats, and humans didn't discover hyperdrives, they were purchased from alien traders that were passing through a colony worlds system
Loved seeing this, and especially Sean's enthusiasm. My one quibble is about the Time Trap. The novel is NOT a novelization of the TAS episode. Yes, they had the same names, but they are not connected beyond featuring the TOS crew and Klingons. As to why the novel is called The Time Trap, well...that might spoil the ending of the novel. I personally loved the novel when I was younger and enjoyed the plot of it.
Though only mentioned in The Slaver Weapon, The Slavers in the Niven books have a huge history, which would stand against most Trek history. It’s an amazing series of books.
And could be easily integrated in to ST cannon. The Slaver Empire ruled the galaxy over a Billion Years Ago until a civil war erupted wiping out almost all intelligent life. Now cut to the beings that seeded planets with their DNA that Captain Picard discovered in the Next Generation episode, The Chase and what the Holo projection said about their explorations, " Life evolved on my planet before all others in this part of the galaxy. We left our world, explored the stars, and found none like ourselves." Could that be because it was wiped out a long time before them?
It would've made an interesting story to adapt the story about the time they opened a stasis box to find a living Slaver. They were immensely powerful telepaths. I don't recall the extent of it, but they could've enslaved an entire planet of people (with some technology to amplify the signal)
It's the history of a different universe. Let it be that.
The Animated series was my first exposure to ST for me in the 70's UK. This is MY , OS. The music is also epic!
The kazinti were also in Larry Niven's "Ringworld" books.
Uh that's where they came from.
I'll sign that petition! Having been a cat lover all my life, I was intrigued by the description of the Kzinti in Starfleet Battles and have been wondering for a while now if there was a connection to the Man / Kzin Wars novels. Thank you for clearing that up for me.
Oh, I'm just so happy that Sean finally got to make a Kzinti video!
I only knew of Speaker-to-Animals from Niven's Ringworld. Had no idea they had crossed over! This video made me so happy.
The Kzinti originated in the Ringworld series.
"The Kzinti were also written by Niven into the Star Trek universe, appearing first in Star Trek: The Animated Series. Similar characters also appeared in Star Trek: Lower Decks and in Star Fleet Universe, as well as material for Star Trek: Enterprise that was never produced because of the series' cancellation." - Wikipedia.
No. The Kzinti originated in the short story "The Warriors" which predates the publishing of Ringworld by several years.
Known Space. They're all Known Space stories, Ringworld and The Warriors alike.
This is fantastic. I love Niven's books, I am a die hard fan from the beginning. I was puzzled when I saw Star Trek and Kzinti in the same title. As a child of the 60's I watched ST religiously and then when my childhood friend introduced me to Niven in the early 70's I was in heaven. The Kzinti are brilliant creatures, its always hilarious to read about who they attacked too soon and always lost the war. I'm curious why ST never had a story about the Enterprise discovering the Ring World.
Seán I love how much you love the Kzinti. They should bring you on board to write a Kzinti episode ☺
They should get Seán to BE the live-action Kzinti
Congratulations Sean, finally a Kzinti episode.
The pink titles are a nice touch. Hal Sutherland, you are not forgotten!
Sean, you are awesome!! ❤ I, too, wish we'd seen more of the Kzinti. *fingers crossed*
Congratulations, Sean! You finally got your kitty cats!
Maybe they will finally give Jimmy Diggs his chance to tell his story. His pitch animatics for Lions of the Night were amazing.
SNW has demonstrated that the writers are willing to explore the more fun aspects of the canon. I'm not giving up hope!
@@aaronring4704 SNW would be an excellent place to do a Kzinti story.
There's also the entire thing that led to the Ferasans in STO that are, essentially, modified version of the Kzinti due to the entire rights mess there and are hinted to have fought a war with their cousins while having had issues with the Caitan and Federation...now being fully in the KDF, having joined up with the Gorn war
Possibly iffy pedantry here, but I believe 'Kzinti' is just the plural (and adjectival form) of 'Kzin', so you could talk about one Kzin (an individual), two Kzinti (a group), the Kzinti Patriachy (a polity), or The Kzin.
Hey Sean, I seem to recall seeing a Kzinti in the court martial scene in "Star Trek IV:The Voyage Home"
There WERE two Felinoids in the gallery one with the lion-like coloring of a Caitian and the other all black BUT neither were called Caitian on screen!
Great to see the Kzinti. Good job. Minor mistake on #11. In your article you correctly talk about the Star FLEET Universe but in the video you both say and have the title card the Star TREK Universe, which may have sounded a bit confusing when you go on to talk about the great games produced by Amarillo Design Bureau under the Star Fleet Universe license. Still great to see them mentioned as I am a fan of the universe they created.
Hey, where is the ups and downs for episode 9
Number 12: The reason why the Kzinti wore pink uniforms in "The Slaver Weapon" has been a source of debate for some years. Dorothy Fontana explained that it was due to director Hal Sutherland's color-blindness, while storyboard artist Bob Kline has claimed that it was colorist Irvin Kaplan's fondness of bright colors that led to the Kzinti being colored that way. 🖖😎👍
IIRC the "Hal Sutherland was colorblind" theory has been thoroughly debunked.
@@GSBarlev debunked by me and my writing partner Rich Schepis I believe 😜
We also debunked the idea that Larry Niven was upset at the pink colors. He literally told us he had no idea where that came from because if you read information about the Kizinti that was published before TAS their home planet is very colorful and the hull of one of their ships was described as pink! While it wasn’t done on purpose, TAS seem to have got it right!
Kind of makes me wish Pierson's puppeteers appeared in TAS too. But everything about them was probably too strange for a kids' show.
My theory about the wars:
1. The Wars happened after first contact and might be some long term stasis/colonization ships of the Kzinti.
2. The war was not so much between Humans and Kzinti but mainly between Vulcans protecting Humans, and the Kzinti. Maybe humans assisted with some DY-1000 cruisers.
3. Maybe, there were a few encounters between the Kzinti and human crews on DY-1000 ships before the world war or during. But due to the Kzinti annihilating human ships, nobody knew it was the Kzinti. Basically, humans thought of "unknown catastrophe destroyed our spaceships".
4. Maybe, in Enterprise, at first, the humans complied with the Vulcans extremely careful procedures hindering space exploration, because humans met the Kzinti.
Fun bit of trivia: The episode _The Slaver Weapon_ is the only episode of the original series era (which kinda includes TAS) that does not contain an appearance by Capt Kirk.
Somehow, I knew who was gonna present this one.
Things we now know about Seán - he *really* likes the Kzinti.....a *lot*
@Trek Culture- hey, Sean, the idea of the wars being at sublight speed isn't quite as outlandish as you might think... Star Fleet Battles, the game you mentioned (the Star Fleet Universe) explains it pretty well. Impulse engines are a simple form of warp engine that can move the ship at sublight and create a warp envelope to enable FTL travel - but not one stable enough for the maneuvers and energy weapon usage of combat, so they have to do combat at sublight. Note that the Phoenix in First Contact accelerates without a separate engine during its warp test, and that combat in Enterprise is sublight. But by TOS, combat at FTL is possible (Balance of Terror, Journey to Babel). This also explains how the Romulans can have a Star Empire, while still using "sublight" ships.
I found it amusing when I was watching the animated series one fine Saturday morning, decades ago, to find that the Kzinti had somehow wandered out of Larry Niven's Ringworld/Known Space universe and into the Star Trek universe.
In Niven's world, "herbivore" refers to the Puppeteers, which are sentient herd animals that are very intelligent and extremely unaggressive.
Your sign-off brings tears to my eyes, you wonderful purrrrson. 🖖
I've always thought the design of Mattel's animated Flash Gordon figure line would have lent itself very well to the characters and aliens of Star Trek:TAS. Especially the Kzinti.
I am honored to give the 2,000th like! I LOVE this RUclips channel!!
The Kzinti first appeared in the short story "The Warriors" in the anthology "The Shape of Space" by Larry Niven. Kzin females are not sentient. The telepaths are lower class and don't practice very good hygeine. Niven also wrote another short story, "the Soft Weapon." in his Known Space universe, that introduced the Slaver weapon. This story was directly lifted and placed in the Star Trek universe in the animated series, with only the protagonists change to Enterprise personnel.
Anytime I hear Larry Niven mentioned, I have fond memories.:)
I did not know the Larry Niven connection. This is glorious.
I guess so many fursuit makers would love to create this live action fursuit for an appearence in Star Trek...
There’s someone who did a fantastic Kizinti costume and he also built the slaver weapon. I think it was for Adafruit.
@@GeekFilter Adafruit is a place for people to re-sell things only produced for like one country
I remember growing up in middle school and early High School reading some of my dad's old man-kzin Wars books of course at that time they were already close to 30 years old and all those books were in various states of disrepair I think I had almost the entire collection back then. At this point those books are probably 50 years old by now I can't even remember what happened to them. Either way it's interesting to learn that they were in Star Trek.
Wasn't there a brief shot of Caitians in Star Trek IV... in the Federation Council scenes?
Where is the Picard VOX ups and downs?!
Love the Man-Kzin Wars books!
The Kzinti in Starfleet Battles are a great race to play due to their reliance on drones as their primary weapons.
Okay I went in expecting to have to comment about not mentioning the whole SFB thing and right off the bat, you mention the SFB universe. From one Sean to another, High Freakin Five.
Franz Joseph was not able to incorporate stuff from the movies because the Technical Manual was published years before the movies. Only TOS and TAS existed at the time
I can’t believe i haven’t had the bell turned on for this channel because this is the type of ST content i need
Yay a TrekCulture vid on my birthday.
A good birthday present
Happy birthday fellow fan
If you really want to know about the Kzinti, read "The Man/Kzin Wars" - an anthology book with stories by Larry Niven, Stephen Hickman, Poul Anderson, and Dean Ing
(That series has balooned to 13 books) - The first book includes Niven's very FIRST Story about the Kzin, long before he wrote The Slaver Weapon or the Ringworld books, called "The Warriors."
I first ran into the Kzin Speaker-to-Animals (occupational name, he translated languages of other species) in Ringworld, and later again in The Ringworld Engineers, by which time he had earned the name Chmeee .
I watched the original broadcast of The Slaver Weapon. I was 10 yrs old at the time. A couple years later I was reading Niven's books and said, "So that's where Kzinti came from."
I'm a fan of mixing ideas like that, but only when a real quality writer like DC Fontana handles it. Otherwise it tends to be expensive fan-fic.
Having watched TAS and read the Ringworld books when they came out, I never connected the two until I saw it in the video title, in writing. Niven rocks!
I have always been a big fan of the animated series, I have the first original box set of DVDs.
Yaya!!! Kzinti!!!!!
A Kzinti type race, called the Kilrathi, were also in the Wing Commander video game series.
I still maintain that at the beginning of the council scene at the end of ST IV, the one with the whales, that a Kzinti is on screen for a moment in a Starfleet uniform. The fur and the ears sure do match estabilshed Kzinti.
The kzinti weren't as much blown up but blown away by the concussion of the weapon while the police web did its job and saved the crew.
More live-action cat content! Another species that would be great to see are the Tzenkethi, although they are probably less furry.
The funny thing about the Kzin is that they have a complete history outside of the Star Trek universe. Speaker-to-Animals... er, sorry, I mean Chmee... would not be pleased. LOL
It took how many decades to see a second Gorn.
Btw, kudos for mentioning Star Fleet Battles.
In a little known Kzinti incursion into Federation space their advance was halted when several freighters beamed entire cargo holds filled with cardboard boxes into the Kzinti invasion fleet.
Somewhere in one of my boxes, stored away but ready to be unpacked when we get into our new house, I have a pewter Kzinti starship that came out for the old FASA RP game....
I had the Kzinti Carrier miniature. We played a one-off battle where my Carrier was supposed to be backed by 2 Romulan Cruisers against a Federation Dreadnaught.
My "partner" turned and ran at the first opportunity.
I still managed to win. The Dreadnaught player was overconfident and came up nice and slow... I unleashed all my drones and shuttles. 😁
Seán, I'm glad you mentioned DC Fontana. She's one of my favorite Trek novelists. I would love to see a Trek Culture vid about the women who shaped Trek behind the scenes, such as DC Fontana and Jeri Taylor. Star Trek would not be what it is without them, and, I'm sure, many others. If Jeri Taylor hadn't come onboard (see what I did there😅) TNG in the 3rd season, I'm convinced that Star Trek would have ended with TNG.
Whaddya think?
According to the Star Fleet Battles version, the Kzinti were related to the Lyrans as well.
I didn't even know there were 11 things I might not know about Kzinti.