Full disclosure: my partner went to UCLA, so I'm actually in an inter-University mortal enemy relationship (and that is why I [jokingly] rag on UCLA). It is difficult, being with a Bruin, but somehow we make it work.
The professor I mentioned in this video (the one who went to school with Michael Bay and Joss Whedon) also went to UCLA, and he only wrote me a recommendation letter to USC verrrrrrrry begrudgingly.
Needless to say, that is one less question I have to ask, lol. I do however have a book that has like a three-page blurb on the USC-UCLA rivalry with the namecalling, pranks and whatnot. Actually, the best thing about when you do these type of videos is that you're looking out for other people who actually might be interested in this type of study or career, especially when you and Dan brought up film sets..
Lindsay produces content that isn't braying like a moron while she plays video games or 9000000000 hours of memes and funniest home video B-roll. I don't think that RUclips is going to be paying that debt.
Quality over quantity should always win. But not in RUclipsLand! Shit out low effort gaming vids just like tens of thousands of others and make our advertisers happy!
+mipmipmipmipmip As I understand it (she doesn't talk about it much) Lindsay has done editing and other stuff for TV shows and such. Being a freelancer means your income varies with what projects you can get in on and how long they last. Obviously she's getting by, but beyond that I couldn't tell you.
According to patreon, she is making $3,200 per Loose Canon video. That might sound like a lot, but she is only producing about one a month, because those require significant work. That works out to about $38k per year, and I assume she has another job, because she is moving to California. If she was doing youtube full time, she would better off moving to a state with a low cost of living.
This isn't just film school. If you've got a dream job or career it really helps to surround yourself with positive people in those fields if possible. Every job opportunity outside of my time in the military has also come out of knowing someone first.
This applies to commercial/fine art school as well. Just completed my first semester as a freshman, and our fall career symposium brought in a lot of guest speakers who were working professionals that emphasised it a LOT. Making connections with other artists/directors is extremely important.
Yes, but not necessarily in a sort of nepotism way that people imagine. In roles like DIT or camera crew or pretty much anything thats not a HOD you can get a lot of work initially out of film school from other former students and it can sometimes be paid work. What works best is someone you know recommending you to fill a complementing role and you dont let that recommendation down because it then snowballs. When I started as a Data Wrangler my first 3 paying jobs were through other students I went to film school with who were either working as 2nd AC or Grips and were asked if they knew a data wrangler and recommended me. The following 5 or so productions I worked on essentially rolled off those first ones as people who found me reliable called me back for other productions. Proving yourself reliable to an AD or any member of the camera crew will get you regular callbacks as those are the sort of people who will be constantly moving to new jobs and rely on people they know they can trust.
I’m currently a sophomore at NYU studying Film and TV. I actually had the teacher that you mentioned for a History & Criticism recitation class for the lecture called Language of Film, and he mentioned you when asked about famous students he’s had - you’re a star! Also, was that the class where the production kids looked down on you? I apologize on their behalf! To add to this conversation, I would say that being schooled in film is ESSENTIAL, yet going to film school itself is not necessarily essential. I loved movies growing up, but I actually hadn’t much experience making them until going to NYU. I cannot stress enough a) how much I’ve learned, b) how more geared towards film I am mentally (being able to conceptualize an idea and articulate exactly how I would execute it), and c) how much better my work is in general. For me, going to a really good film school was the best way to grow as a filmmaker - lots of theoretical instruction with an equal balance of hands-on production work. I needed to go to film school to better hone my skills. Raw talent can only get you so far! So, if you don’t wanna go to film school or can’t, then you have to do that heavy lifting for yourself. FORCE yourself to make movies, to write a short script every month, to buy books written by famous directors, to WATCH A LOT OF MOVIES. Input is just as important as output. For me, film school has been an invaluable tool. I was lucky enough to get a scholarship to NYU and I’m STILL going to end up with a pile of debt. My perspective is either pay that extra money for one of the really, really good schools to get that education, or go to a vocation school for much, much less. Any middle ground school - like a liberal arts college with a film program - is not going to give you much for what you pay for. Sorry for the long comment; I just felt I could offer something to the conversation! Thanks for making such great videos! I recently discovered your channel, and you’ve quickly become one of my favorite RUclipsrs! Keep on doing great things! P.S. - I don’t know where this myth about not being able to use a camera until you’re a junior at NYU - maybe an old rule? - but that’s not necessarily the case anymore. My freshman year, I used a Canon 7D, and this year I used an FS100.
When people think language, they usually think "education", when they should really be thinking "communication". It engulfs the education part, but it's way larger. Even if your society doesn't value language degrees very much, knowing how to communicate well is one of the most powerful tools to boost one's career. I just wish people would be more creative in using these skills, to show its true potential. I'm in one and a half years from finishing Law School right now. And let me tell you this: a lot of people in my country, although very knowledgeable in Law, would really, really benefit from language skills in courts and lawsuits.
I would love Lindsay (and Dan) to do a suave podcast. I'm a fan of the long-form ramblechat type podcast where specialists get to really get into the nitty gritty of theory and practice in their field, so I'm imagining one where she has on people she knows from working in her industry to have a conversation about what they do and how.
Rua O'Neill Or become an Insurance Fraud Arsonist. People hire you to make sure their building "accidentally" burns down in exchange for a portion of the insurance money. Wait, that might actually be a good idea for a movie.
her shade about the lack of craft services or even water and the lack of safety gets put into a whole new light after reading the document. especially when they refused to believe her until spoony backed up her claims.
-sunmask- hilarious watching this now to see her say “the guy who directed Creed and is directing Black Panther” and have it be someone who is totally a name director to anyone who is passingly aware of such things, and then in the comments to see you refer to him as “upcoming.” He done came up.
I would point out that Donal Glover would also qualify as a "the lucky one." He was at NYU in the dramatic writing program. While there, he worked in the Hammerkatz - the campus sketch group. For his internship, he worked on Conan O'Brien's show and wound up being able to get a few on camera roles. Fairly soon after school, I remember Donald getting a job writing for "30 Rock," and now he's... well... he's Donald Glover. Marco Ramirez was at the NYU dramatic writing program at the same time. He went to Columbia for grad soon afterwards, started becoming increasingly successful as a playwright. He moved from that to writing for TV, getting jobs on "Sons of Anarchy," "Orange is the New Black," "Fear the Walking Dead," and finally "Daredevil" where he took over duties as show runner for the second season - leading him to run "The Defenders." One thing I'd point out about both Marco and Donald - but especially Donald - is that their time at NYU was as undergrads. So undergrad may not do you well in some places, but it also depends on the program you're in and what you put into it.
@@mattbox87 right. Because people in France are going to make you a better artist for 60,000 dollars. The greatest artists don't go to art school and they don't teach at art school.
@@LeanoraMcVittie I'm sorry, but I don't want to talk about it. All I will mention is #ChangetheChannel. If you look into it, then you'll understand. Have a nice day @Leanora McVittie
Film is very much an industry where someone hires you today, fires you next week-and thats fine. I have worked jobs for half a day, and do another gig tommorow. And its also a job where a certain percentage of people are either very very rich or protected-by studios, by reputation to a certain extent by unions. Given both -you can see how racism and sexism in hiring practices and just harrasment are pretty easy to seep in the bellow the line stuff-and above the line-well theres a lot of think peices about that.
Really enjoyed this topic. Any chance we could see more behind the scenes "getting into the industry" videos like this? Or more storytelling tropes / tools videos. I basically have fallen into video production starting a RUclips channel a few years back as a way to convey information about a hobby and now find myself staring at Adobe Premiere longer and longer each day as a full time job :P Its fun hearing how peoples experiences and choices / Who they know... have lead them to some interesting projects/careers. I'd enjoy a series from you about your experiences in the industry and the events that have led you here. -Shack
I just graduated from college with a game design degree, and it's really interesting how applicable this advice is to getting into the gaming industry.
I had no idea the write-off ceiling was so low...wtf America? Self-employeed people should be able to write off student debt as a business expense or something.
I still can't get over Dan's delivery of "They're not my arch-enemy." I'm just picturing this epic duel of swords and sorcery and Dan's just kinda milling about in the background, interrupting the fight to check if anyone has any allergies or preferences before he orders pizza.
Jesus, the American educational system is completely fucked. Who can be motivated to seek higher education when that essentially means becoming a slave for a bank for the next 20 years?
Yep. It's to the point where, if the prospective student is _not_ getting good scholarship and/or grant support, I recommend that they go to school part-time while they work a job and pay for their schooling as they go. It will take them longer to get the degree, and they may necessarily come out with a _little_ debt (as schools are notorious for raising tuition costs every year for no legitimate reason), but it will most certainly be worth it in the end. Coming out of school with a degree and only little to no debt already gives one a major leg up over most everyone else, all other things being equal.
Or, you know, go to a public university, work a part-time job, live frugally, and take as many AP and community college courses as possible. Going to a private university in an extremely expensive city and then complaining about your self-imposed debt load is rather silly.
Leland Unruh I go to a public university in the US and also work a part-time job. Let me tell you: what I earn can't pay shit. I happen to be a lucky person who was born into a reasonably affluent family; otherwise I'd be neck deep in debth. The price of education in the US is clearly inflated beyond reason. You'd do well to stop shilling for an exploitative system that at best predates on the aspirations of the youth, and at worst disrupts the intellectual growth of the country. What is the purpose of paid "public" education, anyway?
Sorry if I misunderstood something, but I just wanted to ask for clarification. So if you're an undergrad, you basically have to get a degree in something unrelated if you're interested in production? So your first degree isn't going to be helpful at all and you absolutely have to go to grad school? Or are the vocational schools Dan talked about meant for people who want to skip that and go straight into the trade? And a follow up question I guess, if you're interested in a vocational school, how do you know which schools to avoid? Is there a way to tell your Full Sails's apart from legit institutions?
If you want to work as a technician, like you want to be a grip, gaffer, lamp op, set decorator, props master, armorer, location scout, wardrobe, or anything like that, then vocational school is absolutely the path to go. The grad school route is more if you have aggressive aspirations for being a Director or Producer. To tell the mills apart from the more stable schools, the easiest way is to just look at the cost and do a bit of research. If a private college you've never heard of is charging $20,000 per semester and promising you the sun and the moon, they're probably not worth it.
I think what Lindsay was trying to drive at with the undergrad thing (correct me if I'm wrong) was that undergrad liberal arts degrees are really meant to teach you how to think critically, and in that context having a non-film background when you do grad school can be very valuable. Unless you're doing something like STEM, with very very specific qualifications, the critical thinking and research skills are generally more important than the specific major, and having a separate background (which could be film studies in this case) can give you a wider perspective. A good non-film example is law. My mother is an attorney, she went to a very good law school, and she got in after getting a "useless" undergrad degree in French. Law schools don't really care whether or not you were pre-law, they just want to know that you can write well, research, and think critically, and her liberal arts degree showed that.
In many places Law Schools and Political Science are both starting to prioritize non-obvious precursor degrees because they've wound up in a situation where *everyone* in the professions have the same background and it's causing problems. Anyway, post-production is a bit different than the other roles because it's less about your job title and more about the level of projects you end up working on. Making a living in post-production as a freelancer, doing corporate work, doing commercial work, and so on isn't too hard, relatively speaking (all the billable hours are in post), and the main barrier to entry is just finding work that you feel comfortable to take on. That level of employment is pretty straightforward if you want to go to a vocational school instead of grad school, and even pretty attainable if you're self-taught. Working on television and features, however, is an entirely different story, and breaking into that niche of the industry is actually really difficult and basically requires grad school as feature-level post production is fragmented into intensely specific specialties.
Because if I'm the guy who's hiring, I'm probably going to pick the applicant who can send me a copy of their degree, letters of recommendation from professors, etc...not the applicant who says "I watched this video on RUclips the other day..." lol But yeah, EFAP, Lindsay, Film Riot, and all the rest are really great for self-education. School is best for structured, practical, hands on experience, plus networking opportunities you'd never be able to make in "real life."
Doing both is probably the best option. You should never stop learning, and understand that no matter what, University studies only last a certain number of years and will only teach you so much. However, when you need to pay the bills, and you want to make a living in filmmaking, it's gonna be a long slog no matter what. Building up your resume is the best way to go, be it with a university degree, finding smaller jobs on sets, and/or making your own smaller films while working in something like food or retail. A realistic perspective on a film career is key.
If you have a white-hot portfolio and can get people to look at it, it doesn't matter whether you went to college or vocational school or shot movies out of your garage, but being able to call up your rich kid friend and say "can your dad get me a job" is really what you're paying for going to all those fancy film schools
That's kind of what I was getting out of it in the end. You get MAYBE the opportunity to POSSIBLY come in contact with someone who knows someone (ad nauseam) that can get you a job. Seems like a pretty poor return on such a large investment.
Let's say you are a producer and you have to hire someone as a grip or a and I had two applications with these backgrounds: 1) A USC grad student who was the best student in their class and had straight A's in high school, is very popular and outgoing, but has never worked on serious films or doesn't dedicate enough time to making movies, and their only work experience is working as a barista at Starbucks. 2) A RUclips-taught filmmaker who never went to film school and was an awful student in their entire school career, but who dedicated all their time to producing films, has has a huge body of work, and holds lots of experience as a filmmaker and will do anything to make a film. I would go with 2. The education isn't important, it's what you do and what you've done professionally. Just because there are great directors who didn't go to film school doesn't mean they were dicking around and daydreaming about being a filmmaker, *they actually went and worked their fucking ass off.* And sorry if I sound like a snobby piece of shit by saying this, but I really should be working on films right now as well. I legitimately have to write a dozen scripts for a woman I'm making promotional videos for so I can make money to make films. XD JUST DO THE WORK AND YOU WILL MAKE IT
I know that it would be more controversial, but you mentioned issues with race and gender in the film industry. Would you ever be interested in doing a video on it? Like we as viewers see it a lot in terms of actors and actress (ie the people we actually see in the film), but I'm really interested what your perspective would be as someone on the "inside" if you will.
I applied to USC as an undergrad in the hopes of entering their screenwriting program, but after watching this video, I'm kind of glad I wasn't accepted and am now getting an undergrad in English/creative writing and cinema studies. Maybe I'll pursue an MFA later on, but for now I'm happy with where I ended up.
He went to SAIT! I'm from Calgary and it's so nice to hear people talk about SAIT because it's such a good and viable alternative to university. SAIT is really good at going to all the local high schools and talking about what they do and how they can help you get a job but talking to people from other cities, it seems like it isn't common everywhere.
It unfortunately has taken me nearly 5 years to realize that while I am passionate about film, my main interest has always been creative writing and I've spent all this time forcing myself to be a film major. I went to a for-profit school first that was heavy on film production and nothing else, which I wasn't as interested in as I originally thought. So due to the credits being non-transferable it took be a while to get to a University where I spent the next year doing Film Studies work, which slowly drove me into a weird funk where I again did like the movies but saw no means to an end of what I really wanted to do with this degree. The main problem throughout my college career is my fickleness and unhappiness with each of my decisions based on something I thought I wanted. I would just say that if you're planning on going to film school, really try to map out different possibilities and don't jump on the first school that sounds interesting. You need to understand how you'd like to approach your education and ultimately what you want to do.
Thank you for this insightful discussion. It's an absolute crime how little meaningful information like this is given to high school students (The student loan situation in the US is also a tragedy, but that's another discussion).
And in Finland, being a student is almost without costs. There is student loan but you can go trough your studies without one (I have so far, but I probably have to take it due my slow process). Every student gets student allowance for certain amount of months which comes automatically between September and May. Some schools have semester fees. My schools (Turku University) has 100 euros for a year which gives you updated student card (cheaper bus and train tickets and various other bonuses) and makes you part of the student organization. Of course the government (those bastards) are now planning on cutting the student allowance and trying to reinforce the status of student loan but there are people fighting against that. Because I really, really don't want our system go near the USA system.
Sweden is the same apparently. Free tuition up to masters level. Awesome stuff. Scandinavia is so different culturally though, they don't really see taxes as inherently bad.
The difference is more like in Finland the student loans aren't necessarily used for tuition, but for living expenses. If you don't manage to get a job and don't live at home, you're gonna have a hard time going completely loan free. I know people who've managed to get into the tens of thousands in student debt, by switching their program, or getting another degree after the first one didn't yield any results job wise. The current system expects that 18 year olds are capable of making informed long term decisions and punishes those who need more time to find their true calling.
That is also true. I have the luxury of having a part-time job so I have not yet needed it but I can totally see why many of my fellow students have taken it. And yes, the pressure of choosing your career begins very early. I'm on a very different path now (6 years after I finished college) than I planned. Finnish system bases more and more on quick graduation which, yeah, I see the point but it can really affect negatively on many young folks.
The other great thing about UCLA is that, since it is a state run University, if your a California resident then the tuition can be about 50% cheaper. That's on top of any financial aid and scholarships you can apply for.
Very cool to hear SAIT pop up. It's not often the names of smaller Canadian Institutes creep into "mainstream media". I'd be interested in hearing an extended thought piece on your Calgary experience Dan-O, or being directed to the information should you already have done so somewhere on the web. Intriguing video all the same, the both of you!
One thing that rarely comes up in "should I study this?" discussions is the possibility of going overseas for your degree. American students can get a dirt-cheap education in many European countries for instance that is no worse than what you would get in the US. Learning the local language isn't much of an issue when you're living in a country, you can get reasonably fluent in 6 months when you immerse yourself in it. It's the choice of getting yourself into massive debt, or going overseas, learning a language in the process and coming out with little or no debt. If you're low on money, don't have a scholarship, and can take the distance from family and friends, going overseas is almost always the better alternative to getting a degree in the US. Concerning film in particular, Germany and China (thinking outside the Europe box) are both growing in importance at a rapid pace concerning film production, and have great universities offering degrees in film.
There are a few courses on the continent that are completely in English in order to attract overseas student who can't afford UK tuition fees, although from what I heard those course are mostly business and medicine things but do research! I heard there's a great film school in Poland that's dirt cheap compared to the UK. The cost to do an undergraduate degree in the UK for a non-EU overseas student right now is about £26,000 a year, for those interested, but there's no interest afaik. If you're an EU student studying in Scotland your fees are covered by the Scottish government, as are Scottish students studying in Scotland. There's a UK institution called Creative Skillset, if you go to their website you can search for courses who've been awarded a Creative Skillset tick; if they have that then the course has been recognised as up to industry standard.
Very true, and there are amazing and very prestigious schools around the world that are public, with no charge or expenses at all. Not only in Europe, but in Latin America too. Actually, that american get-into-a-super-debt-to-pay-your-education system seems quite perverse, mostly for the less fortunate ones... more so in this global recession landscape
I did film school and ended up graduating and changing fields completely later on. do film school if you really want to be a film maker is my advice. If you have 4 or 5 ideas for long format movies already and tons of ideas for short, if youre already doing stuff on youtube or wherever and cant think of anything else but making films, then do film school. otherwise, think about something else. either that or you want to be an academic or critic in the audiovisual arts filed... which is cool, its all cool. just dont go into film school just because you like watching movies and you think itll be cool...
Film School is a very complicated issue that needs addressing. I went to a Film School & absolutely HATED it. I Left & I'm currently doing better than 95% of the people that I went to school with (and happier). Of course, this is just me & other people enjoy Film School. No matter where you come from, we all should ask the questions below before we apply. 1.) What Is Your Vision?- No matter if you're an aspiring Producer or an aspiring PA, we all have a vision. We all love Media (or at least I hope) & we were all inspired. You need to ask yourself what makes you want to be in this business. Do you want to change perspectives? Do you think making movies looks awesome? Do you want to be famous? Do you want to add flavor to a medium that you adore? We can ask a million questions, but they all come back to Vision. If you know your Vision, AWESOME. But if you don't, try to think about it before you consider investing in film school. 2.) What Kind of Personality Are You?- This is very applicable to the kind of job you're going to do in the future. If you have a very Social output, being on set is where you want to be. If your Shy, Pre & Post-Production should be your choice. Obviously, this isn't always the case but it is a good base to consider. Know yourself & make honest decisions based on that personality. 2.5) The Personality also comes into the School your going into. USC (where Lindsay went) is very competitive & fierce. Most Students (the ones I met at least) are very Passionate and want to Achieve Success. USC is for those who want to be the next big name in the Industry (Lindsay can always correct me if she doesn't agree). My old school (won't fully disclose but think of the number 5280) was the complete opposite. The College was more friendly, but the Students also had a Serious lack of Passion & Vision. It was so bad that the Students cared more about Friendship than they cared about making films. I couldn't stand it, but some Students might enjoy this approach more than USC. Make sure you know the Social Aspect of your school befoe you go. You'll regret it if you don't (trust me). 3.) Do I have Experience Before College?- Contrary to popular belief, this Industry is extremely tough. In fact, it is one of the most time-consuming professions one can delve themselves into. It doesn't matter if you Write, Direct, Shoot, Produce, Edit or Critique you will be spending a lot of time on your career. Please experience this fact before you apply to ANY film school. 4.) Can I grow as an Artist?- Too many times I see people in this industry who are stuck in their ways. 5 years later they don't have a job. Our industry is always changing, and you need to be open to this fact. Friendships change, some jobs flourish while others disappear. We all need to accept the winds of change and work in it. In other words, Trump supporters shouldn't join film school. 5.) FINALLY, do you know the History?- A film school shouldn't be the first place you hear about Citizen Kane or 2001: A Space Odyssey. You shouldn't discover Ingmar Bergman or Akira Kurosawa from a lecture. If you're not teaching yourself now, it's going to be tough to learn all this later. Plus you should have the always have an appetite to learn more. Hopefully this helps, good-night.
I'm a doctor so the bit about there being a write off cap is felt on a spiritual level. I'm lucky because I was able to get 160K of my 375K discharged by working in a HUSA for four years. But the catch was that I am a specialist.... with a subspecialty. On top of that my particular combination is pretty unique and I only got it because of a very specific combination of events that have happened to very few people. So not only is my particular skill set extremely portable and in demand I have a lot of paid professorial opportunities teaching medicine as a clinical associate professor. The upshot of all that is I spent 4 years practicing medicine in an underfunded understaffed ER and while I got to apply my specialty and subspecialty to it I made far, far less money than I do now. I'm thankful for the discharge but make no mistake the state came out on top in terms of value extracted from me vs debt discharged. It was essentially a second somewhat higher paying residency. So what I'm saying is on the other side of it all, being debt free probably this year, and actually making more money than I ever even expected: I don't understand how people do graduate programs without some form of discharge. I know people who went to Hopkins who are toughing it out because they won't work in a HUSA for four years and they're insane to me. Graduate programs are too damn expensive. Also USC not offering any financial aid is bullshit. Hopkins is the best medical school in the world and they offer financial aid, that one in Cambridge we don't talk about because they're our enemy offers SIGNIFICANT financial aid because they want to attract the best candidates and not be a medical school for the wealthy they would rather produce some of the best clinicians and clinician scientists in the world.
Fantastic video. I'm not a film student, but I have always been fascinated by the intricacies and culture and choices that go into film higher ed academia. Several of my friends have gone to film school so it's amazing to hear what different academic experiences are like that they may have been a part of. Loved the edition of Dan-O, loved his talk about strategic job planning and the importance of networking and taking a office PA position over a set position. Thank you for continuing to make informative videos like this one and am looking forward to more.
I suppose in the end, it comes down to how confident you are in film. If you feel you need education, consider it. Personally though I just learn from videos and books and watch a ton of movies and spend that uni money on equipment. The best way to learn is with your hands.
Please make a whole series about the discrimination and difficulties about this industry! Id love a video about women or one about people of color, or one about trans people, or one about people with different sexualities!
Film is actually pretty decent for all of those groups. I don't know if that was a sarcastic comment but either way people in film don't tend to care, and no they aren't SJWs they just work with one another. "Keep your politics at the door" my teacher said.
If you don't see how there are still major issues in the film industry when it comes to minorities of every kind, then you must not be paying attention. It's gotten better, but there are still huge problems that haven't been addressed or only minimally so.
I feel like a lot of people don't take family finances when going into education as well, and that doesn't just affect you, often it affects many people around you. Like, yea, follow your dreams and all, but if you have someone in your life that you are pretty sure is going to be financially dependent on you 5, 10, 15 years from now don't accumulate debt. And that is a hard thing to see when you are young and your parents and grandparents seem still so young, but it's amazing how quickly age or illness catches up to people. And it sucks to put aside stuff you want for people you love, but just be aware of the reality of your particular family and social situation.
I got a Masters in English Lit. and our lit department taught sever film analysis classes. I had a semester where I was studying Romanticism in one class then going to a class on David Lynch films. We also had a class called Writing About Film; it was pretty great. My favorite was the Stanley Kubrick wherein we studied his adapted films and the novels on which they were based.
One thing that is NEVER discussed is the necessity of being part of a union. I was told (and this was the reason I never went further in my twenties!) that no matter what you want to do on a film crew, you have to have a card. This is true for both the Canadian and American film industries.
Could you do an episode on living off of Patreon, RUclips, etc? I'm curious as to how those processes work, and how they affect your day to day life. Maybe I'm asking the wrong questions, but I would appreciate more information on how one adapts to these different types of revenue.
God damn thank you for this. Your the first video I've seen that plots out the potential tracks of film school. You added more tracks than I knew existed. Great video should have more views.
This was fascinating even though I've never had an interest in film school or any other creative oriented field. Lindsay had a look of someone who's been through the trenches and the discussion of the debt made my heart cringe.
This is fascinating to me. I am on the animation side of things and to me it is especially heartbreaking to watch people go to expensive art schools for this because I feel it is such a trade kind of job. It's not theory, it's not learning how to dissect story or how to edit for maximum effect in a movie. Animation directors can come out of animation schools but for those wanting to become animators it's much more like being in the tech side of film. But they pay out the butt for the high-art animation school experience, then either don't land the job or DO land the job and live miserably because of debt anyway. It was really interesting to hear the film studies side of things though! I was very "NO ART SCHOOL!" myself but hearing that side of things brings up some good points. Some of the film arts DO need deeper collegiate studies! Anyway thanks for posting! This is all very good stuff to hear and I am glad you're part of the effort of putting this out there!
Great video! Good to see Dan-O in the video, and I didn't know that Calgary had so many opportunities (I'm aware of some smaller production there, though). Also surprised to know that Vancouver doesn't have a more renowned program in film. As a Canadian, his final comment cracked me up.
It's super important what you said about safety training. There's a lot of pressure on young people, film school or no, and we have to have the ability to say 'no, I have the right to refuse unsafe work and this is unsafe'. We get into this world where not sleeping, unsafe work practices, even substance abuse on the job is considered part of 'the life' and becomes this kind of proof that you're working hard enough to deserve to be there. I once drove somebody back to campus from an unpaid job on a student film and was grumbling about how I had been driving for something like ten hours that day in addition to my duties as 2nd AD and he said "we should consider ourselves privileged to even be allowed to work on their set. They didn't have to make you 2nd AD on a third year set." When we're working for free and I'm saying 'I'm overworked to the point that I'm concerned about my safety driving'? I'm not willing to work with that 1st AD anymore because she's verbally abusive and her schedule completely neglects turnaround and broke ACTRA by laws with a child actor. Young people need to be able to say 'enough is enough' and choose to work with people who value their labour and time. Older workers aren't gifting you with the privilege to work, especially unpaid work. I know it sounds selfish to say but it's the only mantra that counteracts the exploitation going on.
Lindsay what are YOUR projects? What are YOUR screenplays? What have YOU made as far as film concepts and ideas? As a long time fan of you and your take on SO many things regarding movies I want to know. What is the plot of a Chez Linsay film?
I don't know if this counts (New York Film Academy) I went to film school sort of but I studied Video game design their and I don't regret it I love making video games.
Never met any directors-but plenty of technical people end up through NYFA-though yeah for the amount you spend per year its probabbly better going some place else.
I'm curious what you think of other countries' film schools. Obviously your experiences are very American-centric, and the cost can be very different abroad.
i def understand I'm still in debt from The Art Institute of NY ten years later only half way done paying. And you had me dying about marrying wealthy lol.
My friends and I were all supposed to go to Humber, which had just upgraded their film program to a University degree with college style hands-on training and job seeking focus. At the last minute my parents decided they didn't believe I would succeed and refused to allow me access to my college fund. This forced me to take a local college course focusing on... television. Needless to say, I hated it, dropped out, hopped around a bit trying different art based courses until I eventually started making RUclips vids. long story short, now I'm more successful than any of my film buddies... so if you ask me, film school isn't necessary. That's not advice though. I'm not exactly a typical example.
It's interesting how this def applies to other creative production industries in terms of tempering expectations and the diff between tech schools and lib arts. It also differs depending on the industry but still great for anyone thinking about schools.
Nate Shu honestly, stay in school but if it's a university consider a vocational school. You're going to need the experience from the education to get a job and the most important thing is to network and know people and your instructors and classmates are the perfect people for that
So, I totally didn’t know my favourite suicide squad criticism video creator is from Calgary where my ex is from 😭😭😭 But I find this really interesting because what you’re describing mirrors exactly the same conversation that happens with music majors. There’s Full Sail, Berkeley, SAE, etc. There’s the vocational schools, the music studies, etc. There’s the whole making sure you get paid for your work, being union or not, things to be careful about when doing nonunion work (I live in Florida so unions might not be the most viable thing), and all that jazz. ALSO HOLY SHIT SO TRUE ABOUT HOW SCHOOLS SHOULD TEACH YOU HOW TO CHARGE FOR AND FILE TAXES FOR INDEPENDENT WORK Literally the only reason I know anything about the W forms and making invoices and how I should label myself as a freelance audio engineer and registering a fictitious name for my business and all that jazz is because one day we were just talking in my class my professor went “ok, so get this, everyone pay attention. This is essentially how to avoid a shit ton of debt and how I got myself out of tens of thousands of dollars of debt that I only got into because of stupid shit” and man was that a fun conversation. I was studying film in high school and was gonna go to college for editing and vfx and then pivoted straight to music (I was one of the few people who knew Audio well with my film buddies so I had picked up technical knowledge about mixing and levels and copyright etc). So now I’m going for a vocational degree (?) in music technology. It’s technically an associate’s degree but there’s an accelerated vocational certification course people can take if they want to skip things like English and math and science for a full associate’s degree. However, it’s an associate of science so it’s non-transferrable and there’s barely anything bachelors or higher in the technical side. But it’s also enough to get you into the industry with a job you can work. It’s not enough like a full bachelors and it definitely doesn’t give you enough knowledge of other aspects of the industry, but if you want to get a job where you’ll be working in studios setting up mics and organising files and sessions and all that - you’ll get there. Anyway it’s kinda late and I’m surprised I was able to type all that considering I’m not exactly the best definition of sober right now
Film and English degrees aren't inherently useless. You just have to make your job because they're not something that have automatic opportunities after graduation.
In my teens, I spent an afternoon hanging out with Dario Argento in New York. I got to ask him lots of questions about his creative processes, and work he'd done. No doubt my questions now (30 years later) would be much better. But he was insistent to tell me to remember to avoid film schools. He said that it was more valuable to have ideas, and practice. Of course, he has had the benefit of coming from a connected family, so YMMV.
21:30 hmmmm i think i know... who you mean... now.... I love that you recorded this for us! Your approach to film is so uniquely well-informed compared to most youtube reviewers I watch and it's so, so refreshing. The work you put in really shows.
I actually planned on going to art school in Calgary (I didnt have to worry about living expenses because I will stay with my cousins) but the additional fees for foreign students IS INSANE so I had to back out. Still bummed I couldn't make it happen, Calgary is such a nice place.
As a final year English and Film undergraduate this video makes me feel better about my life (although as a Scot who doesn't pay tuition I am absolutely shocked at that level of debt - the idea of paying interest alone is ridiculous)
Full disclosure: my partner went to UCLA, so I'm actually in an inter-University mortal enemy relationship (and that is why I [jokingly] rag on UCLA). It is difficult, being with a Bruin, but somehow we make it work.
Those fuckers DID steal Douglas Fairbanks' sword from his statue the first semester I was at USC, though...
My girlfriend's stepmother is a USC grad, while she's going to UCLA. Game nights are awful interesting at her house lol
The professor I mentioned in this video (the one who went to school with Michael Bay and Joss Whedon) also went to UCLA, and he only wrote me a recommendation letter to USC verrrrrrrry begrudgingly.
Needless to say, that is one less question I have to ask, lol. I do however have a book that has like a three-page blurb on the USC-UCLA rivalry with the namecalling, pranks and whatnot.
Actually, the best thing about when you do these type of videos is that you're looking out for other people who actually might be interested in this type of study or career, especially when you and Dan brought up film sets..
Ravi Singh why would you ask her that? Nothing to do with this topic
I hope Lindsay gets RUclips famous so she can pay off all her debt
meme rly doubt she's ever relied on monetization of videos as her primary income
Lindsay produces content that isn't braying like a moron while she plays video games or 9000000000 hours of memes and funniest home video B-roll. I don't think that RUclips is going to be paying that debt.
Quality over quantity should always win. But not in RUclipsLand! Shit out low effort gaming vids just like tens of thousands of others and make our advertisers happy!
+mipmipmipmipmip
As I understand it (she doesn't talk about it much) Lindsay has done editing and other stuff for TV shows and such. Being a freelancer means your income varies with what projects you can get in on and how long they last. Obviously she's getting by, but beyond that I couldn't tell you.
According to patreon, she is making $3,200 per Loose Canon video. That might sound like a lot, but she is only producing about one a month, because those require significant work. That works out to about $38k per year, and I assume she has another job, because she is moving to California. If she was doing youtube full time, she would better off moving to a state with a low cost of living.
why is this video 28 minutes instead of 'no'?
because it's not a simple yes or no answer....
I am always delightfully surprised by the places I find you in, Harris.
Man, I love you, but I gotta disagree. It should just be a "probably not". I say as a miserable business school pleb.
Because the answer simply isn't no
It's a joke, guys.
Seems like success after film school is heavily affected by who you know.
I probably should have made this point, but this is 1000000% the case. I've never gotten a job where I didn't know someone first.
This isn't just film school. If you've got a dream job or career it really helps to surround yourself with positive people in those fields if possible. Every job opportunity outside of my time in the military has also come out of knowing someone first.
This applies to commercial/fine art school as well. Just completed my first semester as a freshman, and our fall career symposium brought in a lot of guest speakers who were working professionals that emphasised it a LOT. Making connections with other artists/directors is extremely important.
Yes, but not necessarily in a sort of nepotism way that people imagine. In roles like DIT or camera crew or pretty much anything thats not a HOD you can get a lot of work initially out of film school from other former students and it can sometimes be paid work. What works best is someone you know recommending you to fill a complementing role and you dont let that recommendation down because it then snowballs. When I started as a Data Wrangler my first 3 paying jobs were through other students I went to film school with who were either working as 2nd AC or Grips and were asked if they knew a data wrangler and recommended me. The following 5 or so productions I worked on essentially rolled off those first ones as people who found me reliable called me back for other productions. Proving yourself reliable to an AD or any member of the camera crew will get you regular callbacks as those are the sort of people who will be constantly moving to new jobs and rely on people they know they can trust.
Gibe de pusi b0ss "literal gay Jew " Does the tinfoil hat prevent you from making any sense?
In This Video: we learn the American Higher Education system is *seriously* messed up.
th3freakie “Learn”? I thought we accepted that as a given.
2:00 You know her debt is going to be high when she has to take a drink before talking about it.
I'd do the same thing.
Debt is measured in drinks, not dollars.
Don't feel too bad Lindsay, at least you are doing adjacent to your degree. I went 30k in debt for art school to become a prison guard.
Pringlesman Oof. That’s like...the OPPOSITE of a career in the arts.
i hope you keep making art around your regular gig.
damn,idk what art major are u but u can take inspiration from ur current workplace and turn it into painting or any kind of art,much luck bro
@@Beraksekebon21 This is the attitude. You are a super star, dude.
@@Beraksekebon21 imagine doing art therapy with the prisoners.
I’m currently a sophomore at NYU studying Film and TV. I actually had the teacher that you mentioned for a History & Criticism recitation class for the lecture called Language of Film, and he mentioned you when asked about famous students he’s had - you’re a star! Also, was that the class where the production kids looked down on you? I apologize on their behalf!
To add to this conversation, I would say that being schooled in film is ESSENTIAL, yet going to film school itself is not necessarily essential. I loved movies growing up, but I actually hadn’t much experience making them until going to NYU. I cannot stress enough a) how much I’ve learned, b) how more geared towards film I am mentally (being able to conceptualize an idea and articulate exactly how I would execute it), and c) how much better my work is in general.
For me, going to a really good film school was the best way to grow as a filmmaker - lots of theoretical instruction with an equal balance of hands-on production work. I needed to go to film school to better hone my skills. Raw talent can only get you so far! So, if you don’t wanna go to film school or can’t, then you have to do that heavy lifting for yourself. FORCE yourself to make movies, to write a short script every month, to buy books written by famous directors, to WATCH A LOT OF MOVIES. Input is just as important as output.
For me, film school has been an invaluable tool. I was lucky enough to get a scholarship to NYU and I’m STILL going to end up with a pile of debt. My perspective is either pay that extra money for one of the really, really good schools to get that education, or go to a vocation school for much, much less. Any middle ground school - like a liberal arts college with a film program - is not going to give you much for what you pay for.
Sorry for the long comment; I just felt I could offer something to the conversation! Thanks for making such great videos! I recently discovered your channel, and you’ve quickly become one of my favorite RUclipsrs! Keep on doing great things!
P.S. - I don’t know where this myth about not being able to use a camera until you’re a junior at NYU - maybe an old rule? - but that’s not necessarily the case anymore. My freshman year, I used a Canon 7D, and this year I used an FS100.
I appreciate that she doesn't put down English degrees.
When people think language, they usually think "education", when they should really be thinking "communication". It engulfs the education part, but it's way larger.
Even if your society doesn't value language degrees very much, knowing how to communicate well is one of the most powerful tools to boost one's career. I just wish people would be more creative in using these skills, to show its true potential.
I'm in one and a half years from finishing Law School right now. And let me tell you this: a lot of people in my country, although very knowledgeable in Law, would really, really benefit from language skills in courts and lawsuits.
Lin just manages to makes me happy just by talking. She's got that suave podcast voice if you know what I mean.
I would love Lindsay (and Dan) to do a suave podcast. I'm a fan of the long-form ramblechat type podcast where specialists get to really get into the nitty gritty of theory and practice in their field, so I'm imagining one where she has on people she knows from working in her industry to have a conversation about what they do and how.
I'd be totally down for that.
Yeah. I've never even considered asking myself if I should go to film school but I still really enjoyed watching this.
Alternatives to marrying wealthy: faking your own death, or becoming a pirate. The latter is always my plan b
Rua O'Neill Personally, I think I'd rather be a mercenary than a pirate.
Privateer? That's a little of both....
Rua O'Neill Or become an Insurance Fraud Arsonist. People hire you to make sure their building "accidentally" burns down in exchange for a portion of the insurance money. Wait, that might actually be a good idea for a movie.
arr matey
@@tatehildyard5332 I would watch the hell out of that movie!
Watching this after #ChangetheChannel puts the whole "some people don't know how sets work" into perspective
her shade about the lack of craft services or even water and the lack of safety gets put into a whole new light after reading the document. especially when they refused to believe her until spoony backed up her claims.
YOU WORKED WITH RYAN COOGLER?
That's awesome!
He's one of my current favorite upcoming directors.
-sunmask- hilarious watching this now to see her say “the guy who directed Creed and is directing Black Panther” and have it be someone who is totally a name director to anyone who is passingly aware of such things, and then in the comments to see you refer to him as “upcoming.”
He done came up.
I would point out that Donal Glover would also qualify as a "the lucky one." He was at NYU in the dramatic writing program. While there, he worked in the Hammerkatz - the campus sketch group. For his internship, he worked on Conan O'Brien's show and wound up being able to get a few on camera roles. Fairly soon after school, I remember Donald getting a job writing for "30 Rock," and now he's... well... he's Donald Glover. Marco Ramirez was at the NYU dramatic writing program at the same time. He went to Columbia for grad soon afterwards, started becoming increasingly successful as a playwright. He moved from that to writing for TV, getting jobs on "Sons of Anarchy," "Orange is the New Black," "Fear the Walking Dead," and finally "Daredevil" where he took over duties as show runner for the second season - leading him to run "The Defenders." One thing I'd point out about both Marco and Donald - but especially Donald - is that their time at NYU was as undergrads. So undergrad may not do you well in some places, but it also depends on the program you're in and what you put into it.
Wow
"I graduated with $60k in debt, paid into it $19k since then, and now have $69k in debt."
What a microcosm of everything wrong with the world.
You mean a macrocosm of everything wrong with going into debt for art school.
@@jacksobrooks This doesn't just apply to art school in the US. I've heard similar stories from people with medical decrees for example.
@@jacksobrooks You mean a macrocosm of everything wrong with going into debt for art school in the United States.
@@mattbox87 right. Because people in France are going to make you a better artist for 60,000 dollars. The greatest artists don't go to art school and they don't teach at art school.
Are you saying interest is everything wrong with the world? The ability to lend and borrow money is a cornerstone of our financial system.
21:06 - 21:35 Oh man, I guess we now know what that's all about now due to recent events. Yikes.
Stay strong Lindsay & Dan-O.
So I'm coming to this VERY late, and "recent events" are no longer recent. What events were these?
@@LeanoraMcVittie I'm sorry, but I don't want to talk about it. All I will mention is #ChangetheChannel. If you look into it, then you'll understand. Have a nice day @Leanora McVittie
Thx for timestamps, I knew this was in here somewhere but didn't wanna rewatch the whole thing
Please do the "Minorities and discrimation in the Film Industry" idea you mentioned in 24:08 ! That would be awesome!
+
+
Film is very much an industry where someone hires you today, fires you next week-and thats fine. I have worked jobs for half a day, and do another gig tommorow. And its also a job where a certain percentage of people are either very very rich or protected-by studios, by reputation to a certain extent by unions. Given both -you can see how racism and sexism in hiring practices and just harrasment are pretty easy to seep in the bellow the line stuff-and above the line-well theres a lot of think peices about that.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
I literally expected this video to be you guys saying "no", the credits rolling, and then just a black screen for the next 27 minutes
Bleeding Gums Murphy the answer isn't even no though
Them saying "no" and rolling black for like 5-10 seconds would have been a hilarious opener.
If every one of Lindsay's subscribers donated 80 cents, she'd be completely out of debt! :-)
I can do that. Where do I go?
patreon.com/loosecanon
Really enjoyed this topic. Any chance we could see more behind the scenes "getting into the industry" videos like this? Or more storytelling tropes / tools videos. I basically have fallen into video production starting a RUclips channel a few years back as a way to convey information about a hobby and now find myself staring at Adobe Premiere longer and longer each day as a full time job :P Its fun hearing how peoples experiences and choices / Who they know... have lead them to some interesting projects/careers.
I'd enjoy a series from you about your experiences in the industry and the events that have led you here.
-Shack
I just graduated from college with a game design degree, and it's really interesting how applicable this advice is to getting into the gaming industry.
Jared Mitchell nearly any field in the entertainment industry has this issue.
Also cool cause USC's game design major is apart of it's film college
How applicable is it?
I had no idea the write-off ceiling was so low...wtf America? Self-employeed people should be able to write off student debt as a business expense or something.
Please do more things with Dan because he's delightful and you guys have a good dynamic.
Great to get a perspective from folks who went through the system!
Especially good from people who saw and experienced more of the ugly stuff and didn't become huge stars!
I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say that the names Lindsay didn't want to name were the folks over at Chanel Awesome.
I was so relieved when you said the only thing that makes you question whether it was worth it or not was debt. Thank God it's free in my country.
What country is that?
How’s that going for you? Kinda worried, because most countries with free tuition have a lot smaller film industry and less prestigious film schools
Oh the delicious irony of seeing a -Scam- University of Phoenix ad before this video.
This was an invaluable conversation for me to hear, Lindsay. Thanks for this. I would listen to a podcast about film starring the two of you.
I find this man very attractive. I like when he talks. His face looks nice when he talks.
TheWonderGinger ikr he's really handsome ^^
He also has an incredible voice.
giggity
Omg i thought i was the only one. To find him attractive that is , not the only attractive person
It’s the Decepticons shirt.
I still can't get over Dan's delivery of "They're not my arch-enemy." I'm just picturing this epic duel of swords and sorcery and Dan's just kinda milling about in the background, interrupting the fight to check if anyone has any allergies or preferences before he orders pizza.
Jesus, the American educational system is completely fucked. Who can be motivated to seek higher education when that essentially means becoming a slave for a bank for the next 20 years?
"It's not slavery! They work for each other!"
Exactly. Say it for the people in the back.
Yep. It's to the point where, if the prospective student is _not_ getting good scholarship and/or grant support, I recommend that they go to school part-time while they work a job and pay for their schooling as they go. It will take them longer to get the degree, and they may necessarily come out with a _little_ debt (as schools are notorious for raising tuition costs every year for no legitimate reason), but it will most certainly be worth it in the end. Coming out of school with a degree and only little to no debt already gives one a major leg up over most everyone else, all other things being equal.
Or, you know, go to a public university, work a part-time job, live frugally, and take as many AP and community college courses as possible.
Going to a private university in an extremely expensive city and then complaining about your self-imposed debt load is rather silly.
Leland Unruh I go to a public university in the US and also work a part-time job. Let me tell you: what I earn can't pay shit. I happen to be a lucky person who was born into a reasonably affluent family; otherwise I'd be neck deep in debth.
The price of education in the US is clearly inflated beyond reason. You'd do well to stop shilling for an exploitative system that at best predates on the aspirations of the youth, and at worst disrupts the intellectual growth of the country. What is the purpose of paid "public" education, anyway?
Damn, David Cross looks younger here
lel
Paul Mckendrick I assume that stands for Laugh Externally, Lads
JaredRmz I was thinking the same thing, haha!!!
JaredRmz de.r8 de.ifd, a partir do meu e-mail da turma porque
Sorry if I misunderstood something, but I just wanted to ask for clarification. So if you're an undergrad, you basically have to get a degree in something unrelated if you're interested in production? So your first degree isn't going to be helpful at all and you absolutely have to go to grad school? Or are the vocational schools Dan talked about meant for people who want to skip that and go straight into the trade?
And a follow up question I guess, if you're interested in a vocational school, how do you know which schools to avoid? Is there a way to tell your Full Sails's apart from legit institutions?
If you want to work as a technician, like you want to be a grip, gaffer, lamp op, set decorator, props master, armorer, location scout, wardrobe, or anything like that, then vocational school is absolutely the path to go. The grad school route is more if you have aggressive aspirations for being a Director or Producer.
To tell the mills apart from the more stable schools, the easiest way is to just look at the cost and do a bit of research. If a private college you've never heard of is charging $20,000 per semester and promising you the sun and the moon, they're probably not worth it.
So something like working in editing or post-production would fall under "technician," right?
A big thing is - do not go to a for-profit school, ever. For any reason.
I think what Lindsay was trying to drive at with the undergrad thing (correct me if I'm wrong) was that undergrad liberal arts degrees are really meant to teach you how to think critically, and in that context having a non-film background when you do grad school can be very valuable. Unless you're doing something like STEM, with very very specific qualifications, the critical thinking and research skills are generally more important than the specific major, and having a separate background (which could be film studies in this case) can give you a wider perspective.
A good non-film example is law. My mother is an attorney, she went to a very good law school, and she got in after getting a "useless" undergrad degree in French. Law schools don't really care whether or not you were pre-law, they just want to know that you can write well, research, and think critically, and her liberal arts degree showed that.
In many places Law Schools and Political Science are both starting to prioritize non-obvious precursor degrees because they've wound up in a situation where *everyone* in the professions have the same background and it's causing problems.
Anyway, post-production is a bit different than the other roles because it's less about your job title and more about the level of projects you end up working on. Making a living in post-production as a freelancer, doing corporate work, doing commercial work, and so on isn't too hard, relatively speaking (all the billable hours are in post), and the main barrier to entry is just finding work that you feel comfortable to take on. That level of employment is pretty straightforward if you want to go to a vocational school instead of grad school, and even pretty attainable if you're self-taught.
Working on television and features, however, is an entirely different story, and breaking into that niche of the industry is actually really difficult and basically requires grad school as feature-level post production is fragmented into intensely specific specialties.
Who needs Film School when you have Every Frame a Painting, Cinefix and a ton of other stuff for free.
Because if I'm the guy who's hiring, I'm probably going to pick the applicant who can send me a copy of their degree, letters of recommendation from professors, etc...not the applicant who says "I watched this video on RUclips the other day..." lol
But yeah, EFAP, Lindsay, Film Riot, and all the rest are really great for self-education. School is best for structured, practical, hands on experience, plus networking opportunities you'd never be able to make in "real life."
Doing both is probably the best option. You should never stop learning, and understand that no matter what, University studies only last a certain number of years and will only teach you so much. However, when you need to pay the bills, and you want to make a living in filmmaking, it's gonna be a long slog no matter what. Building up your resume is the best way to go, be it with a university degree, finding smaller jobs on sets, and/or making your own smaller films while working in something like food or retail.
A realistic perspective on a film career is key.
If you have a white-hot portfolio and can get people to look at it, it doesn't matter whether you went to college or vocational school or shot movies out of your garage, but being able to call up your rich kid friend and say "can your dad get me a job" is really what you're paying for going to all those fancy film schools
That's kind of what I was getting out of it in the end. You get MAYBE the opportunity to POSSIBLY come in contact with someone who knows someone (ad nauseam) that can get you a job. Seems like a pretty poor return on such a large investment.
Let's say you are a producer and you have to hire someone as a grip or a and I had two applications with these backgrounds:
1) A USC grad student who was the best student in their class and had straight A's in high school, is very popular and outgoing, but has never worked on serious films or doesn't dedicate enough time to making movies, and their only work experience is working as a barista at Starbucks.
2) A RUclips-taught filmmaker who never went to film school and was an awful student in their entire school career, but who dedicated all their time to producing films, has has a huge body of work, and holds lots of experience as a filmmaker and will do anything to make a film.
I would go with 2. The education isn't important, it's what you do and what you've done professionally. Just because there are great directors who didn't go to film school doesn't mean they were dicking around and daydreaming about being a filmmaker, *they actually went and worked their fucking ass off.* And sorry if I sound like a snobby piece of shit by saying this, but I really should be working on films right now as well. I legitimately have to write a dozen scripts for a woman I'm making promotional videos for so I can make money to make films. XD
JUST DO THE WORK AND YOU WILL MAKE IT
I know that it would be more controversial, but you mentioned issues with race and gender in the film industry. Would you ever be interested in doing a video on it? Like we as viewers see it a lot in terms of actors and actress (ie the people we actually see in the film), but I'm really interested what your perspective would be as someone on the "inside" if you will.
Say, Lindsay, have you considered doing a Loose Canon on Dracula? Now THERE'S a character who has had a lot of faces.
Hey Chez! Currently undergrad at Berkeley and just applied to grad school. You have no idea how relatable this is. Lol.
I applied to USC as an undergrad in the hopes of entering their screenwriting program, but after watching this video, I'm kind of glad I wasn't accepted and am now getting an undergrad in English/creative writing and cinema studies. Maybe I'll pursue an MFA later on, but for now I'm happy with where I ended up.
What do you plan on doing after college in terms of career?
He went to SAIT! I'm from Calgary and it's so nice to hear people talk about SAIT because it's such a good and viable alternative to university. SAIT is really good at going to all the local high schools and talking about what they do and how they can help you get a job but talking to people from other cities, it seems like it isn't common everywhere.
It unfortunately has taken me nearly 5 years to realize that while I am passionate about film, my main interest has always been creative writing and I've spent all this time forcing myself to be a film major. I went to a for-profit school first that was heavy on film production and nothing else, which I wasn't as interested in as I originally thought. So due to the credits being non-transferable it took be a while to get to a University where I spent the next year doing Film Studies work, which slowly drove me into a weird funk where I again did like the movies but saw no means to an end of what I really wanted to do with this degree. The main problem throughout my college career is my fickleness and unhappiness with each of my decisions based on something I thought I wanted. I would just say that if you're planning on going to film school, really try to map out different possibilities and don't jump on the first school that sounds interesting. You need to understand how you'd like to approach your education and ultimately what you want to do.
Thank you for this insightful discussion. It's an absolute crime how little meaningful information like this is given to high school students (The student loan situation in the US is also a tragedy, but that's another discussion).
You can apply every single point made here to the 3D modeling/animation/visual effects schools as well.
This seems to really apply to art school as a whole, wish I saw this in highschool
"FU[K you if you're poor"
-United States of America (1776-2016)
Nicolás Durruti oh no the US died this year? so sorry to hear that... was it the cheeto puff that killed it?
Nope, the world ended when David Bowie died.
why bother going to university then? take an apprenticeship if you're going to school just to get a job
And in Finland, being a student is almost without costs. There is student loan but you can go trough your studies without one (I have so far, but I probably have to take it due my slow process). Every student gets student allowance for certain amount of months which comes automatically between September and May. Some schools have semester fees. My schools (Turku University) has 100 euros for a year which gives you updated student card (cheaper bus and train tickets and various other bonuses) and makes you part of the student organization. Of course the government (those bastards) are now planning on cutting the student allowance and trying to reinforce the status of student loan but there are people fighting against that. Because I really, really don't want our system go near the USA system.
Sweden is the same apparently. Free tuition up to masters level. Awesome stuff. Scandinavia is so different culturally though, they don't really see taxes as inherently bad.
That is true. It's the different cultural history altogether and the mindset about studies.
The difference is more like in Finland the student loans aren't necessarily used for tuition, but for living expenses. If you don't manage to get a job and don't live at home, you're gonna have a hard time going completely loan free. I know people who've managed to get into the tens of thousands in student debt, by switching their program, or getting another degree after the first one didn't yield any results job wise. The current system expects that 18 year olds are capable of making informed long term decisions and punishes those who need more time to find their true calling.
That is also true. I have the luxury of having a part-time job so I have not yet needed it but I can totally see why many of my fellow students have taken it. And yes, the pressure of choosing your career begins very early. I'm on a very different path now (6 years after I finished college) than I planned. Finnish system bases more and more on quick graduation which, yeah, I see the point but it can really affect negatively on many young folks.
"Oh look at me, I'm a European and I can afford to live a normal life."
Yeah yeah, stop gloating.
The other great thing about UCLA is that, since it is a state run University, if your a California resident then the tuition can be about 50% cheaper. That's on top of any financial aid and scholarships you can apply for.
I love the shade thrown at Channel Awesome at about 20 minutes into the video
It's crazy to think I saw this video several months before I ever found Folding Ideas. It's cool knowing that you guys know each other
I'm not interested in film school and still found this interesting! :)
Very cool to hear SAIT pop up.
It's not often the names of smaller Canadian Institutes creep into "mainstream media".
I'd be interested in hearing an extended thought piece on your Calgary experience Dan-O, or being directed to the information should you already have done so somewhere on the web.
Intriguing video all the same, the both of you!
One thing that rarely comes up in "should I study this?" discussions is the possibility of going overseas for your degree. American students can get a dirt-cheap education in many European countries for instance that is no worse than what you would get in the US. Learning the local language isn't much of an issue when you're living in a country, you can get reasonably fluent in 6 months when you immerse yourself in it.
It's the choice of getting yourself into massive debt, or going overseas, learning a language in the process and coming out with little or no debt. If you're low on money, don't have a scholarship, and can take the distance from family and friends, going overseas is almost always the better alternative to getting a degree in the US.
Concerning film in particular, Germany and China (thinking outside the Europe box) are both growing in importance at a rapid pace concerning film production, and have great universities offering degrees in film.
Any schools that focus on animation?
There are a few courses on the continent that are completely in English in order to attract overseas student who can't afford UK tuition fees, although from what I heard those course are mostly business and medicine things but do research! I heard there's a great film school in Poland that's dirt cheap compared to the UK.
The cost to do an undergraduate degree in the UK for a non-EU overseas student right now is about £26,000 a year, for those interested, but there's no interest afaik. If you're an EU student studying in Scotland your fees are covered by the Scottish government, as are Scottish students studying in Scotland.
There's a UK institution called Creative Skillset, if you go to their website you can search for courses who've been awarded a Creative Skillset tick; if they have that then the course has been recognised as up to industry standard.
Very true, and there are amazing and very prestigious schools around the world that are public, with no charge or expenses at all. Not only in Europe, but in Latin America too. Actually, that american get-into-a-super-debt-to-pay-your-education system seems quite perverse, mostly for the less fortunate ones... more so in this global recession landscape
André Finger
I have family in Germany. Sweet, I can move there.
The most informative youtube video on this topic. Thank you both very much.
I did film school and ended up graduating and changing fields completely later on. do film school if you really want to be a film maker is my advice. If you have 4 or 5 ideas for long format movies already and tons of ideas for short, if youre already doing stuff on youtube or wherever and cant think of anything else but making films, then do film school. otherwise, think about something else. either that or you want to be an academic or critic in the audiovisual arts filed... which is cool, its all cool. just dont go into film school just because you like watching movies and you think itll be cool...
Film School is a very complicated issue that needs addressing. I went to a Film School & absolutely HATED it. I Left & I'm currently doing better than 95% of the people that I went to school with (and happier). Of course, this is just me & other people enjoy Film School. No matter where you come from, we all should ask the questions below before we apply.
1.) What Is Your Vision?- No matter if you're an aspiring Producer or an aspiring PA, we all have a vision. We all love Media (or at least I hope) & we were all inspired. You need to ask yourself what makes you want to be in this business. Do you want to change perspectives? Do you think making movies looks awesome? Do you want to be famous? Do you want to add flavor to a medium that you adore? We can ask a million questions, but they all come back to Vision. If you know your Vision, AWESOME. But if you don't, try to think about it before you consider investing in film school.
2.) What Kind of Personality Are You?- This is very applicable to the kind of job you're going to do in the future. If you have a very Social output, being on set is where you want to be. If your Shy, Pre & Post-Production should be your choice. Obviously, this isn't always the case but it is a good base to consider. Know yourself & make honest decisions based on that personality.
2.5) The Personality also comes into the School your going into. USC (where Lindsay went) is very competitive & fierce. Most Students (the ones I met at least) are very Passionate and want to Achieve Success. USC is for those who want to be the next big name in the Industry (Lindsay can always correct me if she doesn't agree). My old school (won't fully disclose but think of the number 5280) was the complete opposite. The College was more friendly, but the Students also had a Serious lack of Passion & Vision. It was so bad that the Students cared more about Friendship than they cared about making films. I couldn't stand it, but some Students might enjoy this approach more than USC. Make sure you know the Social Aspect of your school befoe you go. You'll regret it if you don't (trust me).
3.) Do I have Experience Before College?- Contrary to popular belief, this Industry is extremely tough. In fact, it is one of the most time-consuming professions one can delve themselves into. It doesn't matter if you Write, Direct, Shoot, Produce, Edit or Critique you will be spending a lot of time on your career. Please experience this fact before you apply to ANY film school.
4.) Can I grow as an Artist?- Too many times I see people in this industry who are stuck in their ways. 5 years later they don't have a job. Our industry is always changing, and you need to be open to this fact. Friendships change, some jobs flourish while others disappear. We all need to accept the winds of change and work in it. In other words, Trump supporters shouldn't join film school.
5.) FINALLY, do you know the History?- A film school shouldn't be the first place you hear about Citizen Kane or 2001: A Space Odyssey. You shouldn't discover Ingmar Bergman or Akira Kurosawa from a lecture. If you're not teaching yourself now, it's going to be tough to learn all this later. Plus you should have the always have an appetite to learn more.
Hopefully this helps, good-night.
Felipe Herrera z
You dropped out of film school but did you go to any type of university after or before that?
wooow, two of my favorite youtubers! This is great! It worths the watch even if you are not questioning the entrance to a film school.
I'm a doctor so the bit about there being a write off cap is felt on a spiritual level. I'm lucky because I was able to get 160K of my 375K discharged by working in a HUSA for four years. But the catch was that I am a specialist.... with a subspecialty. On top of that my particular combination is pretty unique and I only got it because of a very specific combination of events that have happened to very few people. So not only is my particular skill set extremely portable and in demand I have a lot of paid professorial opportunities teaching medicine as a clinical associate professor.
The upshot of all that is I spent 4 years practicing medicine in an underfunded understaffed ER and while I got to apply my specialty and subspecialty to it I made far, far less money than I do now. I'm thankful for the discharge but make no mistake the state came out on top in terms of value extracted from me vs debt discharged. It was essentially a second somewhat higher paying residency.
So what I'm saying is on the other side of it all, being debt free probably this year, and actually making more money than I ever even expected: I don't understand how people do graduate programs without some form of discharge. I know people who went to Hopkins who are toughing it out because they won't work in a HUSA for four years and they're insane to me. Graduate programs are too damn expensive.
Also USC not offering any financial aid is bullshit. Hopkins is the best medical school in the world and they offer financial aid, that one in Cambridge we don't talk about because they're our enemy offers SIGNIFICANT financial aid because they want to attract the best candidates and not be a medical school for the wealthy they would rather produce some of the best clinicians and clinician scientists in the world.
Fantastic video. I'm not a film student, but I have always been fascinated by the intricacies and culture and choices that go into film higher ed academia. Several of my friends have gone to film school so it's amazing to hear what different academic experiences are like that they may have been a part of.
Loved the edition of Dan-O, loved his talk about strategic job planning and the importance of networking and taking a office PA position over a set position. Thank you for continuing to make informative videos like this one and am looking forward to more.
I suppose in the end, it comes down to how confident you are in film. If you feel you need education, consider it. Personally though I just learn from videos and books and watch a ton of movies and spend that uni money on equipment. The best way to learn is with your hands.
Please make a whole series about the discrimination and difficulties about this industry! Id love a video about women or one about people of color, or one about trans people, or one about people with different sexualities!
Film is actually pretty decent for all of those groups. I don't know if that was a sarcastic comment but either way people in film don't tend to care, and no they aren't SJWs they just work with one another. "Keep your politics at the door" my teacher said.
wow you must really not watch a lot of movies if you think that
If you don't see how there are still major issues in the film industry when it comes to minorities of every kind, then you must not be paying attention. It's gotten better, but there are still huge problems that haven't been addressed or only minimally so.
You mean there are not enough white people in Bollywood films?
Dan's squinty laugh at the very end is the cutest thing I've seen all year! Great seeing you together. More please.
I feel like a lot of people don't take family finances when going into education as well, and that doesn't just affect you, often it affects many people around you. Like, yea, follow your dreams and all, but if you have someone in your life that you are pretty sure is going to be financially dependent on you 5, 10, 15 years from now don't accumulate debt. And that is a hard thing to see when you are young and your parents and grandparents seem still so young, but it's amazing how quickly age or illness catches up to people. And it sucks to put aside stuff you want for people you love, but just be aware of the reality of your particular family and social situation.
Wow, thank you for this video! I’m currently taking Film Production at SAIT right now, so these tips have really opened my eyes to a few things!
I got a Masters in English Lit. and our lit department taught sever film analysis classes. I had a semester where I was studying Romanticism in one class then going to a class on David Lynch films. We also had a class called Writing About Film; it was pretty great. My favorite was the Stanley Kubrick wherein we studied his adapted films and the novels on which they were based.
One thing that is NEVER discussed is the necessity of being part of a union. I was told (and this was the reason I never went further in my twenties!) that no matter what you want to do on a film crew, you have to have a card. This is true for both the Canadian and American film industries.
Could you do an episode on living off of Patreon, RUclips, etc? I'm curious as to how those processes work, and how they affect your day to day life. Maybe I'm asking the wrong questions, but I would appreciate more information on how one adapts to these different types of revenue.
I know I’m super late but in case anyone stumbles across this: Dominic Noble did one
21:18 Is she talking about working on the That Guy With The Glasses Anniversary Specials?
yes
God damn thank you for this. Your the first video I've seen that plots out the potential tracks of film school. You added more tracks than I knew existed. Great video should have more views.
This was fascinating even though I've never had an interest in film school or any other creative oriented field. Lindsay had a look of someone who's been through the trenches and the discussion of the debt made my heart cringe.
This is fascinating to me. I am on the animation side of things and to me it is especially heartbreaking to watch people go to expensive art schools for this because I feel it is such a trade kind of job. It's not theory, it's not learning how to dissect story or how to edit for maximum effect in a movie. Animation directors can come out of animation schools but for those wanting to become animators it's much more like being in the tech side of film. But they pay out the butt for the high-art animation school experience, then either don't land the job or DO land the job and live miserably because of debt anyway.
It was really interesting to hear the film studies side of things though! I was very "NO ART SCHOOL!" myself but hearing that side of things brings up some good points. Some of the film arts DO need deeper collegiate studies!
Anyway thanks for posting! This is all very good stuff to hear and I am glad you're part of the effort of putting this out there!
21:17 ...Channel Awesome?
Yeah, holy shit. It lines up exactly. Guess we know the context now.
Craft services. Exactly what Ellis mentioned in the google doc. It has to be about CA
I wish I saw this before I went to Film School
Wow, I never knew film school was so hardcore and strenuous. I thought all those students were just fucking around.
Some are, but they are the ones that come out of it 100,000 in dept that screw themselves over for years afterward.
Geoffrey Bassett lol
21:16 - seems like a reference to work on the channel which must not be named.
Yo, I just realized I was subscribed to Dan-O's Folding Ideas Channel. He is one of my favorite reviewers, so it's neat that you guys talk. :)
Great video! Good to see Dan-O in the video, and I didn't know that Calgary had so many opportunities (I'm aware of some smaller production there, though). Also surprised to know that Vancouver doesn't have a more renowned program in film. As a Canadian, his final comment cracked me up.
God, its 2020 and it’s so strange to see two non-family people sitting so close to each other on a couch. I kinda forgot we could just do that before.
21:19 just by pure assumption if i had to guess that not naming names wouldn't have to be a critic or something
3:26 Dan really nailing that "oh boy, I'm sure glad I was born in Canada" look
It's super important what you said about safety training. There's a lot of pressure on young people, film school or no, and we have to have the ability to say 'no, I have the right to refuse unsafe work and this is unsafe'. We get into this world where not sleeping, unsafe work practices, even substance abuse on the job is considered part of 'the life' and becomes this kind of proof that you're working hard enough to deserve to be there. I once drove somebody back to campus from an unpaid job on a student film and was grumbling about how I had been driving for something like ten hours that day in addition to my duties as 2nd AD and he said "we should consider ourselves privileged to even be allowed to work on their set. They didn't have to make you 2nd AD on a third year set." When we're working for free and I'm saying 'I'm overworked to the point that I'm concerned about my safety driving'? I'm not willing to work with that 1st AD anymore because she's verbally abusive and her schedule completely neglects turnaround and broke ACTRA by laws with a child actor. Young people need to be able to say 'enough is enough' and choose to work with people who value their labour and time. Older workers aren't gifting you with the privilege to work, especially unpaid work. I know it sounds selfish to say but it's the only mantra that counteracts the exploitation going on.
Lindsay what are YOUR projects? What are YOUR screenplays? What have YOU made as far as film concepts and ideas? As a long time fan of you and your take on SO many things regarding movies I want to know. What is the plot of a Chez Linsay film?
I don't know if this counts (New York Film Academy) I went to film school sort of but I studied Video game design their and I don't regret it I love making video games.
Never met any directors-but plenty of technical people end up through NYFA-though yeah for the amount you spend per year its probabbly better going some place else.
I'm curious what you think of other countries' film schools. Obviously your experiences are very American-centric, and the cost can be very different abroad.
I'd really love to hear both of you guys talk about production on a regular basis. I'd totally listen to a podcast.
\As a Brazilian student, I can firmly say I'm horrified with USA's education system
Wow, I don't know if I'd be able to deal with the stress of making my time in university be worth all that money.
IMHO, it really isn't.
i def understand I'm still in debt from The Art Institute of NY ten years later only half way done paying. And you had me dying about marrying wealthy lol.
Lindsay worked with Ryan Coogler?! That's AWESOME
My two favorite RUclips movie people in the same clip! Awesome!
Just.... the concept of Student Debt is so horrifying, coming from Europe...
I could've used this video 2 years ago lmao
My friends and I were all supposed to go to Humber, which had just upgraded their film program to a University degree with college style hands-on training and job seeking focus. At the last minute my parents decided they didn't believe I would succeed and refused to allow me access to my college fund. This forced me to take a local college course focusing on... television.
Needless to say, I hated it, dropped out, hopped around a bit trying different art based courses until I eventually started making RUclips vids.
long story short, now I'm more successful than any of my film buddies... so if you ask me, film school isn't necessary.
That's not advice though. I'm not exactly a typical example.
great backstory
Does the work you do now make you happy or do you plan to move to a different career if the opportunity arises?
SKEPTIC?!? my two fave youtubers lol
fancy seeing you here man!
It's interesting how this def applies to other creative production industries in terms of tempering expectations and the diff between tech schools and lib arts. It also differs depending on the industry but still great for anyone thinking about schools.
Thank you Lindsay! I'm in 9th grade and am already working on picking colleges. btw I love your channel.
Why did this have to come out a week before I hear back from my film school???
Nate Shu honestly, stay in school but if it's a university consider a vocational school. You're going to need the experience from the education to get a job and the most important thing is to network and know people and your instructors and classmates are the perfect people for that
@@pelicanman96 sorry what's the different between university and vocational school
So, I totally didn’t know my favourite suicide squad criticism video creator is from Calgary where my ex is from 😭😭😭
But I find this really interesting because what you’re describing mirrors exactly the same conversation that happens with music majors.
There’s Full Sail, Berkeley, SAE, etc. There’s the vocational schools, the music studies, etc.
There’s the whole making sure you get paid for your work, being union or not, things to be careful about when doing nonunion work (I live in Florida so unions might not be the most viable thing), and all that jazz.
ALSO HOLY SHIT SO TRUE ABOUT HOW SCHOOLS SHOULD TEACH YOU HOW TO CHARGE FOR AND FILE TAXES FOR INDEPENDENT WORK
Literally the only reason I know anything about the W forms and making invoices and how I should label myself as a freelance audio engineer and registering a fictitious name for my business and all that jazz is because one day we were just talking in my class my professor went “ok, so get this, everyone pay attention. This is essentially how to avoid a shit ton of debt and how I got myself out of tens of thousands of dollars of debt that I only got into because of stupid shit” and man was that a fun conversation.
I was studying film in high school and was gonna go to college for editing and vfx and then pivoted straight to music (I was one of the few people who knew Audio well with my film buddies so I had picked up technical knowledge about mixing and levels and copyright etc). So now I’m going for a vocational degree (?) in music technology. It’s technically an associate’s degree but there’s an accelerated vocational certification course people can take if they want to skip things like English and math and science for a full associate’s degree. However, it’s an associate of science so it’s non-transferrable and there’s barely anything bachelors or higher in the technical side. But it’s also enough to get you into the industry with a job you can work. It’s not enough like a full bachelors and it definitely doesn’t give you enough knowledge of other aspects of the industry, but if you want to get a job where you’ll be working in studios setting up mics and organising files and sessions and all that - you’ll get there.
Anyway it’s kinda late and I’m surprised I was able to type all that considering I’m not exactly the best definition of sober right now
Film and English degrees aren't inherently useless. You just have to make your job because they're not something that have automatic opportunities after graduation.
In my teens, I spent an afternoon hanging out with Dario Argento in New York. I got to ask him lots of questions about his creative processes, and work he'd done. No doubt my questions now (30 years later) would be much better. But he was insistent to tell me to remember to avoid film schools. He said that it was more valuable to have ideas, and practice. Of course, he has had the benefit of coming from a connected family, so YMMV.
21:30 hmmmm i think i know... who you mean... now....
I love that you recorded this for us! Your approach to film is so uniquely well-informed compared to most youtube reviewers I watch and it's so, so refreshing. The work you put in really shows.
I actually planned on going to art school in Calgary (I didnt have to worry about living expenses because I will stay with my cousins) but the additional fees for foreign students IS INSANE so I had to back out. Still bummed I couldn't make it happen, Calgary is such a nice place.
As a final year English and Film undergraduate this video makes me feel better about my life (although as a Scot who doesn't pay tuition I am absolutely shocked at that level of debt - the idea of paying interest alone is ridiculous)