The best part of this entire clip is that an instrumental version of Doris Day's big hit "Secret Love" plays over the final scene where they cross their arms and drink.
You're right! I searched for Doris Day's Secret Love on RUclips, and the beginning of "Secret Love" is the exact same music that plays when the arms interlock.
@@ArmyScoutMom the worst part was that we had to go through an hour of christ and his miracles after Messala’s death. That aside, the movie portrays a poetic kind of homoeroticism unlike any other. I’d love to call it the Vidal touch. Oh and Stephen didn’t die so you could call his incredible portrayal of Messala ‘incestuous’. Get your facts straight. To love one another as brothers doesn’t make you siblings. You don’t like the gay subtext? Ignore the obvious. Your loss anyways. Good for us, bad for you.
So even though Karl Tunberg is the screen writer of credit and William Wilder is the director of the film, somehow Gore Vidal gets designated to conference with Stephen Boyd on this subtext?
Both then and now, many more people work on crafting a film’s script than the credited writer(s). Often times the finished product bears very little resemblance than what was originally on the page, as many rewrites by many different people will change the shape of the movie dramatically.
It could definitely be seen this way with this gay man giving us HIS gay subtext. However in the story they were supposed to be as close as brothers in childhood. I've seen many sets of Brothers who laugh, tease, celebrate and love and adore each other - and they're NOT gay! Yet Vidal thinks this amazing story needs his gay "doctoring"?! When one thinks of civil war stories, it pulls at the heart to see brother against brother which makes for extraordinary drama. How sad and subversive of Vidal to manipulate this film for his personal agenda...
What, did you think Gore Vidal was wandering around the movie set dispensing ideas and no one had the choice but to implement them? He was LITERALLY the script doctor for this film, which, since you don’t know, meant that he was HIRED and PAID to give his input on bettering the script. ‘His personal agenda’-that is frankly a brain dead way to look at it and smacks of how little you understand how films or the film industry works. You DO realize that literally NO ONE had to take him up on the idea? You seriously think neither Wyler nor Boyd could have nixed the character motivation? Instead they WHOLEHEARTEDLY agreed to it and implemented it. Please think critically before putting out such an ignorant opinion.
First, let me say that Gore Vidal was a fine writer and dramatist, and he had a great imagination. But Vidal's story about the conflict of the lead characters in Ben Hur doesn't ring true and he vastly overstated his role in the picture. The two main writers of Ben Hur's screenplay were Karl Tunberg and Christopher Fry, neither of whom were gay. And another contributing writer was Maxwell Anderson, who also wasn't gay. Vidal's writing role, in fact, was more as a script doctor, than a primary writer. Vidal would have us believe that director William Wyler and actor Stephen Boyd, who played Messala brilliantly, were in on the "gay subtext" that Vidal "somehow" inserted into the writings of Tunberg, Fry, and Anderson, without them knowing about it. But there's no evidence that Vidal told this "gay subtext" story while Stephen Boyd or William Wyler was alive when there was plenty of time and opportunity for him to do so. (Boyd died in 1977 and Wyler died in 1981.) That's pretty convenient, as they would be in the best position to confirm or deny Vidal's boasts. And you can study the picture all you want, but there's no "gay subtext" to be found anywhere in it unless you choose to project it onto the film characters. Look, I'll grant you that Vidal is a creative and imaginative writer. But he's also a liar. So, you have to take his stories with much more than a grain of salt.
Vidal being credited as a script doctor doesn't mean he didn't contribute any writing or editing to the script. In fact, that's basically what a script doctor would ultimately do. The bulk of the script was written by Tunberg, Fry, and Anderson. It most likely went out of their hands when it came to the director for it to be shot. But then Wyler brought on Vidal to edit it or provide feedback. Hey may not have written huge new scenes or anything like that, but he could have edited or added lines here or there, as well as provide tips to the director and actors (screenwriters or script doctors are sometimes on set) The conversation with Wyler is not doubtful at all. And even if he had written more than his fair share of the script, credits are not always honest - especially back in those days - due to contracts and other sorts of scenarios. Not believing Vidal's story just because of his credit on the film is narrow minded. Also why would he tell this story before he was interviewed? At the time he wouldn't have blurted it out, and there was no reason to bring it up until he was brought on for the interview. Even if the scriptwriters had been alive when he made the claim it wouldn't have mattered because they probably didn't write it together and by the time Vidal had it they weren't involved. I can't attest on whether or not the gay subtext is noted throughout the movie. I can imagine it isn't, mostly because it seems to be related to just a few early scenes before the character's relationship deteriorates. Not to mention only one actor is in on the secret so it's not going to play very well - let alone in 1959. It sounds to me you just don't _want_ it to be true.
Whether Gore Vidal's anecdote has some truth to it or not, I remember watching that scene as a boy in the 60s who wasn't even aware that there could be such a thing as romantic love between two men, and being envious of Ben Hur and Massala's relationship - I also remember feeling absolutely nothing when watching depictions of romantic feelings between a man and a woman.
The best part of this entire clip is that an instrumental version of Doris Day's big hit "Secret Love" plays over the final scene where they cross their arms and drink.
You're right! I searched for Doris Day's Secret Love on RUclips, and the beginning of "Secret Love" is the exact same music that plays when the arms interlock.
@@BespokeJoe- Pretty cool, eh? I love catching little details like that!
I would say the worst part... They were supposed to be like brothers. I guess that makes this relationship incestuous?? How disgusting
Thank you so much for pointing that out.
@@ArmyScoutMom the worst part was that we had to go through an hour of christ and his miracles after Messala’s death. That aside, the movie portrays a poetic kind of homoeroticism unlike any other. I’d love to call it the Vidal touch. Oh and Stephen didn’t die so you could call his incredible portrayal of Messala ‘incestuous’. Get your facts straight. To love one another as brothers doesn’t make you siblings. You don’t like the gay subtext? Ignore the obvious. Your loss anyways. Good for us, bad for you.
Content loudness -31.3dB... Remember to turn the volume down when you leave...
We all know good things are brought about by subtle underhandedness and subversion
Great concealment.
Concealment yes. Great, no
So even though Karl Tunberg is the screen writer of credit and William Wilder is the director of the film, somehow Gore Vidal gets designated to conference with Stephen Boyd on this subtext?
Both then and now, many more people work on crafting a film’s script than the credited writer(s). Often times the finished product bears very little resemblance than what was originally on the page, as many rewrites by many different people will change the shape of the movie dramatically.
A lot of studios make the writers, director, cast and crew pay money to have their name in the credits
It could definitely be seen this way with this gay man giving us HIS gay subtext. However in the story they were supposed to be as close as brothers in childhood. I've seen many sets of Brothers who laugh, tease, celebrate and love and adore each other - and they're NOT gay! Yet Vidal thinks this amazing story needs his gay "doctoring"?!
When one thinks of civil war stories, it pulls at the heart to see brother against brother which makes for extraordinary drama.
How sad and subversive of Vidal to manipulate this film for his personal agenda...
All Gore did was provide the actor with a motivation for the character. The movie has no overt homosexual references at all.
What, did you think Gore Vidal was wandering around the movie set dispensing ideas and no one had the choice but to implement them? He was LITERALLY the script doctor for this film, which, since you don’t know, meant that he was HIRED and PAID to give his input on bettering the script. ‘His personal agenda’-that is frankly a brain dead way to look at it and smacks of how little you understand how films or the film industry works. You DO realize that literally NO ONE had to take him up on the idea? You seriously think neither Wyler nor Boyd could have nixed the character motivation? Instead they WHOLEHEARTEDLY agreed to it and implemented it. Please think critically before putting out such an ignorant opinion.
Oh, waaaah. Poor snowflake.
Someone is mad they find out the Christian-values film is gay as fuck 🤣
First, let me say that Gore Vidal was a fine writer and dramatist, and he had a great imagination. But Vidal's story about the conflict of the lead characters in Ben Hur doesn't ring true and he vastly overstated his role in the picture. The two main writers of Ben Hur's screenplay were Karl Tunberg and Christopher Fry, neither of whom were gay. And another contributing writer was Maxwell Anderson, who also wasn't gay. Vidal's writing role, in fact, was more as a script doctor, than a primary writer. Vidal would have us believe that director William Wyler and actor Stephen Boyd, who played Messala brilliantly, were in on the "gay subtext" that Vidal "somehow" inserted into the writings of Tunberg, Fry, and Anderson, without them knowing about it. But there's no evidence that Vidal told this "gay subtext" story while Stephen Boyd or William Wyler was alive when there was plenty of time and opportunity for him to do so. (Boyd died in 1977 and Wyler died in 1981.) That's pretty convenient, as they would be in the best position to confirm or deny Vidal's boasts. And you can study the picture all you want, but there's no "gay subtext" to be found anywhere in it unless you choose to project it onto the film characters. Look, I'll grant you that Vidal is a creative and imaginative writer. But he's also a liar. So, you have to take his stories with much more than a grain of salt.
Vidal being credited as a script doctor doesn't mean he didn't contribute any writing or editing to the script. In fact, that's basically what a script doctor would ultimately do. The bulk of the script was written by Tunberg, Fry, and Anderson. It most likely went out of their hands when it came to the director for it to be shot. But then Wyler brought on Vidal to edit it or provide feedback. Hey may not have written huge new scenes or anything like that, but he could have edited or added lines here or there, as well as provide tips to the director and actors (screenwriters or script doctors are sometimes on set) The conversation with Wyler is not doubtful at all. And even if he had written more than his fair share of the script, credits are not always honest - especially back in those days - due to contracts and other sorts of scenarios. Not believing Vidal's story just because of his credit on the film is narrow minded.
Also why would he tell this story before he was interviewed? At the time he wouldn't have blurted it out, and there was no reason to bring it up until he was brought on for the interview. Even if the scriptwriters had been alive when he made the claim it wouldn't have mattered because they probably didn't write it together and by the time Vidal had it they weren't involved. I can't attest on whether or not the gay subtext is noted throughout the movie. I can imagine it isn't, mostly because it seems to be related to just a few early scenes before the character's relationship deteriorates. Not to mention only one actor is in on the secret so it's not going to play very well - let alone in 1959. It sounds to me you just don't _want_ it to be true.
Buddy, look at the way Stephen Boyd is looking at him. That's an eye-f-ing if I've ever seen one!
Maybe but it sure come across gay AF!
@@bokbok501 And the schoolgirl giggle
Whether Gore Vidal's anecdote has some truth to it or not, I remember watching that scene as a boy in the 60s who wasn't even aware that there could be such a thing as romantic love between two men, and being envious of Ben Hur and Massala's relationship - I also remember feeling absolutely nothing when watching depictions of romantic feelings between a man and a woman.
How absolutely reprehensible. Good thing Christ wins in the end
I'm not exactly Christian but I don't think Christ believed in "winning" and "losing".
Oh, so Christ got to fuck Charlton Heston? I must not have seen the director's cut.