How Many Receptacles are Required on this Island by 2023 NEC? 210.52(C)(2)
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2023
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Guaranteed that 'provide for future' to a builder means 'I do minimal to nothing'. I can hear the conversation with the inspector now, 'In the future you can drill a hole over there to pull a cable and nail a box in the framing over there. I'm done'.
It depends on how you interpret ‘provide for future’. If that just means a conduit under the floor, it could be problematic. If the cutouts are provided with blank covers, it’s better. I think the vast majority of contractors will go ahead and wire the island, hopefully to at least 2020 standards. In reality, it may be awhile before anyone figures out that they’re not required. 😊
LOL! Good point! Well, if you're going to wire up wired receptacle boxes with blank covers, you might as well install the receptacles too.
I agree with it, to an extent. People were complaining about receptacles interfering with a planned design aesthetic and perhaps they had no plans for using appliances there. However with the 'provisions' in place, such as a hidden accessible prewired junction box somewhere below, it should be relatively easy to add them as needed.
OK, thanks!
🤔
Sparky, I agree with you. The island needs receptacles and USB receptacles too. A kitchen island can be a popular place for for heat producing appliances and electronics.
Great point. Two of the receptacles that I put in the countertop in the video were USB receptacles, one on each side of the cooktop.
that’s a lot of outlets for such a small area. Your countertop would be covered with small appliances.
Two of the receptacles were also USB chargers. To this day, they are frequently being used to charge laptops, cell phones and the like. It's nice to be able to use the other receptacle for an appliance.
Spot on Bill. What were they thinking removing that language from the code? Hopefully they will add it back...and also require that the outlets be GFCI.
That's just crazy Sparky. Why would we add provision for installing a future receptacle? Just install the darn thing during construction!
I agree with you. Thanks!
I completely agree with your final analysis of what may happen. Usually building codes require more outlets. However, I can see where they chose to make it no standard and let the home shopping community dictate the number of receptacles. I know I would want a couple on one if I had an island but I am not sure I want them to dictate how many I have to have installed as it may not be necessary in all occasions. I tend to be a minimalist in regulations requiring non-safety items.
Good points! Thanks Jeff!
Wow that's interesting my friends remodeled their whole Kitchen in 2022 and the outlets are on the sides one on each side of the island
That's what they are trying to avoid with this 2023 code. Kids have gotten tangled up in cords on the side of islands, causing accidents.
As of October 1st, Oregon adopted the the current NEC. I was surprised it also adopted this article in the Oregon Electrical Specialty Code, verbatim. In the past this article has been modified. OESC is Oregon's revisions amending the NEC.
I personally would suggest reasonable receptacles be added.
Interesting. I agree with you. We need some receptacles to use while using the island.
Yes. It may not always be easy to install new receps, as you pointed out.@@SparkyChannel
When I designed the island in the video, I designed in a place to safely put receptacles. The receptacle placement has to be carefully thought out before building, not after an island is installed in the kitchen IMO. @@donl1410
Finally, the code is right. It should be up to the people who own the house.
So you like the providing for a future receptacle, but no receptacles on the island or peninsula?
Nice I remember it used to be by the square ft of the island countertop
Yes, it was a good, common-sense solution.
As someone who recently bought a house that has a kitchen island with 0 receptacles, I think it's a bit of a bummer to not have it, but fine for the NEC to not require it. We do have receptacles on different circuits on the main counter, and we have a high number of appliances. But though a bit crowded, we do have the space. No stove or anything like that in the island, just some storage space underneath. This one seems like something fine to leave the homeowner to opt for if they want it, or want to show off when they sell. As with any upgrade, it's a significant value add that a homeowner can weigh whether or not it's worth it. And ultimately it's up to people not to do things that are dangerous and could cause damage. To really stop that the NEC would really have to be very unreasonably intrusive in residences.
Thanks Alexander. Congratulations on the new home!
It’s always up to Customer/Homeowner how many receptacles they prefer IF not required by NEC or JHA.
I’ll even give them some 3ways, so they can ⚡️their crock pot from the LayZ Boy 😂👍🏻Excellent video once again Thanks !
Thanks so much Kevin!
I agree. Some contractors are just going to skip it. Especially if they're not doing custom work. If they're just building something new they'll just leave it out & definitely will lead to using extension cords however you have to supervise your children
I agree with you. Plus, extension cords can be more dangerous than the problem they are trying to solve.
Does the code specify how many receptacle, or how many outlets? There is a difference.
LOL yes Vitamix is the only thing I used at my friend's house I had to bring my own LOL
LOL! I love my Vitamix!
I like the idea of not having receptacles on islands . Its been a Tennessee code for years .
I'm with you Sparky we should have receptacles there otherwise it could be a hazard😮
That's my opinion!
So what do receptacles listed for work surfaces look like, vs receptacles listed for countertops? Didn't know to have 2 different products
They are the same receptacle assemblies as far as I know.
While these 2 articles don't require a receptacle, it does appear that it must be prewired. So, the circuit breaker will need to be there and the wires will need to be accessible. I could see an inspector requiring the wiring into boxes with blank cover plates, just no receptacles, in order to meet this requirement. However, as you've stated, it leaves the situation open for improperly installed receptacles.
"If a receptacle is not provided for an island or peninsular countertop or work surface, provisions must be provided at the island or peninsula for the future addition of a receptacle to serve the island or peninsular countertop or work surface."
Doesn't say anything about "prewired", but it is wide open to interpretation.
@@phi5head Understood. However, those provisions will probably then require conduit from the breaker panel to the counter top so that the wire could be pulled. Having to cut into walls, etc. would be no different than now and so, wouldn't be "providing for the receptacles." If the conduit doesn't go all the way back to the breaker panel, it will need to go to a junction box or other receptacle box somewhere to tie into. Basically, having to tear everything apart to get the receptacles installed will be hard to justify as "providing for the receptacles." Therefore, while it doesn't require it, prewiring is probably the easiest way to comply.
I think the most common interpretation will be to require a junction box prewired in the island. But installing boxes and blank plates doesn't make sense to me. If you're going to do that, you might as well install the receptacles. And if the island is above an unfinished basement, with the panel in the basement, you really don't need to do anything. @@wmcomprev
@@phi5head I understand what you're saying about a basement, but I'm in Texas. We don't have basements. If the wire wasn't in the cabinet somewhere, then you'd need conduit through the concrete slab. If you don't put in boxes and blank plates, then the cabinet would be designed in such a way as to make it fairly obvious where they would go and what the wire path to those points would be. I also agree, if you're going to put in the boxes & prewire, you'd might as well put in the receptacles. The only reason I'd see to not do so would be if there's going to be multiple different types of items that could be wired into those boxes. However, I'd still just put in the receptacles and let them be pulled out if someone wanted something different in there. The price of the receptacles is negligible.
I think it will really only come into play on islands and peninsulas without backsplashes. On islands like the ones in this video, any electrician worth his salt will still be installing receptacles even if they aren't required. But if it's just a flat countertop, you now have to install one of those pop-up receptacle assemblies or nothing at all. No more receptacles in the side of the cabinet below the work surface. @@wmcomprev
Yeah, I agree. The 2023 Code is a mistake. They should go back to the sft rule
I think the sq ft rule was fair.
Dollars for dimes people are going to use appliances on their island or peninsula. If there are no outlets they'll grab extension cords and plug them into whatever and wherever outlet they can find. Using their 18 AWG lamp type extension cords with high current appliances on 20 amp circuits,. The average homeowner has no idea the risks of the overloaded extension cords running across the counters, at least until the fire starts. You know this is going to happen, with alarming regularity. It's difficult to not see that as a higher safety issue than whatever the NEC thought they were solving.
That's what I think as well. Thanks Russell.
in my opinion, that is still kitchen countertop, and so despite not being required as an island, it is still required as a kitchen countertop.
Interesting, thanks!
Ive been in so many homes where people do nothing other then eat or keep junk on the island.
lol!
I’m very confused. After reading section C3, my interpretation of it says to have receptacles at countertops? What am I missing?
If you look at 2:09 it says "if a receptacle outlet is not provided".... then it tells what to do if you don't provide a receptacle. To me, C2 gives permission to not install receptacle(s) and C3 tells how to install them if you do. IMO, it's not written very well.
@@SparkyChannel doh! 🤦♂️ you’re totally right. I watched this twice and somehow my eyes glossed right over the second half of C2 lol and nice work on the countertop👍
Thanks! You can kind of tell an electrician designed the island because I designed in a safe place for receptacles. lol!@@KingHarry1
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No more receptacles allowed on the sides of cabinets below the work surface. Too many kids had pulled some appliance down on themselves and been injured.
Yes, 210.52(C)(3) says on or above the countertop. They sure seem to like the receptacle assemblies you put in the countertop though. It's almost like the NEC is advertising for them.
Although, my state is still on the 2017 NEC, so this won't apply for me for several years.
I think they're pushing the pop-up countertop receptacles because they're really the only safe option for an island with a flat countertop: "As part of its substantiation for the change, NEC Code Making Panel 2 cited Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) data showing that between 1991 and 2020, an estimated 9,700 people, many of them children, were treated in United States emergency departments for burns and other injuries after pulling on or running into power cords plugged into receptacle outlets installed below island and peninsula work surfaces. "@@SparkyChannel
True. @@phi5head
I predict that the next code cycle will require one of those popup receptacles in any islands that just have one flat work surface, which makes sense. Islands should have a receptacle or people will be running cords, and the receptacle on the cabinet below the work surface does seem hazardous to reaching youngsters.
The minimal should be two receptacles for a countertop. The lack of receivables makes that countertop useless or the homeowner buys a 100 foot 10 gauge extension cord on a receptacle using a small gauge wire that won't handle the draw .
I totally agree. Who can work in a modern kitchen without handy receptacles? LOL! Good examples!
the requirement was removed because of the 10,000+/- kids getting hurt by pulling hot pots off the island onto themselves.
It that true?
You don't think people will use extension cords if there are no receptacles on their kitchen island?
And the have what to do with outlets?
@@SparkyChannel that would be people making themselves unsafe and not the NEC requiring them to be unsafe. But then its a question of, how do we make it safe. I think the NEC will come back to this after someone figures out how to make it safe.
@@saulgoodman2018 kids pull the cords of the hot pots.
As many as ur wife wants......happy wife, happy life. 😂😅
I agree with that!
Every average size island NEEDS to have at least one or two receptacles installed above the countertop exactly the way you installed yours in this video.
For the NEC 2023 to State the electrical contractor no longer needs to install receptacles on that island is absolutely ludicrous!!
I agree with everything you said in this video Mister Sparky.
This is a horrible accident just waiting to happen. Good thing women aren't very good Housewives anymore and don't even know how to cook or they would have extension cords all over that countertop while the children are running around having fun playing tripping over the extension cords and possibly harming or even killing themselves by accident.
Now this is just a residential home. So adding a receptacle with a dedicated circuit would not be that much money and a good electrician would install it regardless. Now let's talk about a brand new apartment complex that has 500 Apartments. You think that electrical contractor is going to install those receptacles in his Bid if he doesn't have to? I don't think so.
Have you ever seen the movie Idiocracy? It's labeled as a comedy but more and more everyday I'm seeing that movie as a documentary.
Also Mr. Sparky are you aware we live on a motionless, stationary, immovable and stationery plane?
Can you believe we do not live on a spinning wet testicle?
I'm convinced that the new 2023 kitchen island code was written by people who don't cook and who probably aren't married. Try convincing your wife that it's a good idea to not have a single receptacle on her kitchen island! That's a fun conversation.
answer: as many as the wife says because you'll never hear the end of it every day.
LOL! You speak the truth brother!
ZERO
Correct!
Island or peninsula can't be both
" Island and Peninsular Countertops" is the way the NEC expresses it. See 1:30
Why are they changing code?
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
"As part of its substantiation for the change, NEC Code Making Panel 2 cited Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) data showing that between 1991 and 2020, an estimated 9,700 people, many of them children, were treated in United States emergency departments for burns and other injuries after pulling on or running into power cords plugged into receptacle outlets installed below island and peninsula work surfaces. "
I agree. I think the 2000 code made excellent sense. The 2023 code was made by people who don't cook.
@@phi5head The cords are not hanging off the counters. Kids should not be running in the kitchen.
@@saulgoodman2018 not all island receptacles are on the top.
@@tiggeroush Most are. Appliance cords are like 1-2 feet only.