Let me have a go at explaining based on my intuition of what is going on. Luminance is the most important thing in video codecs, almost all of the precision (in your 10bit codec) is used for storing luminance information (not colour information). I invite folks to use a monitor on their Sony cameras i.e. "monitor+" on your ipad and flick through the colour profiles i.e. PP4, PP8 etc and see what happens to the colour waveform scope. Anyone who understands how the "dynamics/compression" works in audio will immediately see what is happening, it's basically applying a curve to compress the highlights and shadows into a smaller space, it's "squeezing" the information together into the middle - so you can store more dynamic range in a smaller space. The wide gamut codec of Sony log footage also has more luminance precision i.e. 10K values rather than 1K values, but the codec is still 10bit which means you are actually losing precision in 2 ways, one that it's compressing your sensor data into a smaller space, and 2 that the wider gamut codec profile (note gamut is colour, not luminance) is representing a larger space but still with its 10 bit codec. So you might wonder why skintones always look better on SDR in a low dynamic range shot, this is why - there is way more precision being used for your skintones (they are stretched across more of your representation space, which always looks better). That's why for me, SLOGCineGamut should only be used when you actually need to capture a wide dynamic range (outside or changing light). Also - yes the camera only actually has 2 sensor modes (the base isos) and the ISO/EI adjustment just translates the distribution of values up and down to map onto the actual range of luminance your codec supports (for display only, not recording on EI), given that there is often more dynamic range "going in" than which can be stored, you need to make the tradeoff by shifting the distribution up and down, again, using the monitor app to see this effect actually happening when you switch ISO is illuminating (pun intended). As you point out, changing the EI doesn't change the base iso, but it does prompt you to adjust aperture or change your ND filter which does change the exposure (light going in). So then there is the important question of which picture profile (compression curve) does the Sony Cine function actually use, because this is the only real consideration in my opinion - it seems to use the PP4-5 range, which is a much milder compression than the higher ones i.e. PP8 - which means on high DR shots it might not be enough to capture both highlights and lowlights, but does mean you retain a fair bit of range for skintones. So based on this, it does indeed seem a bit pointless, you have far more control over the compression curve just adjusting the actual picture profiles and ISO doing it the "old way". Coming from a guy who has a Ph.D in signal processing but self-taught in cameras through trial and error, I hope my intuitions help people
Thanks Phillip, great video. I use cineEi to keep me in the base iso, also for dynamic range (whether I see it or not) but it's just a fool proof way to get the cleanest image.....it's still going to need exposing correctly just like any other camera. We recently did a massive event in Paris and my friend who shoots Blackmagic and Lumix decided to shoot with one of my fx30's last minute because there were other teams filming and they all had FX3/FX30. We had a quick meeting before the event and everyone was shooting cineEi. My friend was a bit apprehensive about getting a clean image but I told him to just shoot 800 or 2500 and if you hit a bright spot and the meter starts flashing you're over exposed....very simple. Upon reviewing the footage he was so happy. It was easy for him to get great dynamic range & a clean image. I say all this because each pp has different base iso and cineEi is the highest and very easy to work with so very simple for a lot of camera ops to understand. I'm sure to naked eye it may not look any different and I appreciate all the charts etc and definitely something everyone should look at but cineEi isn't Sony being a cheat😅 I love being able to expose cineEi down on camera and see how it looks without affecting footage. Really helps to see if my blown out spots can be recovered in post. I love it 😁
Hey, thanks for watching and commenting. I'm not trying to be proscriptive or telling people there's one right way to do things. I'm just trying to help people understand how the cameras are working. Staying in the base ISO and overexposing with the meters (or histo or zebras or whatever) is just another method of staying in the base and using a lower EI value. The end goal is to bury the noise. But the compromise is also the same, you're losing stops in the highlights so that you gain stops in the shadows. The point I'm trying to illustrate is that the dynamic range is finite. When you increase the ISO, you're shifting the dynamic range in favor of the highlights. When you lower the ISO, you're shifting the dynamic range from the highlights to the shadows. And it doesn't matter if you do it with Cine EI, ISO, or some other method of over or under-exposing. The results are the same
Pretty much everyone explains Cine EI inaccurately. EI is a post-exposure “look” tool that has nothing to do with “latitude” whatsoever. If at the base ISO you choose to push more light onto the sensor than a “normal” exposure would call for in order to grab more shadow detail (for instance), then you can use EI to pull the output “look” back so when you have a client or director looking over your shoulder, they see the more or less intended exposure which will be delivered after color correction. Fundamentally it’s a mathematical shift of a given Base ISO exposure for viewing purposes. That’s it. If something is blown out EI can’t help you recover it. Instead, you have to adjust the exposure up stream of the sensor. Or in other words, EI is a crude modification of the sensor data which can help improve the client monitoring experience, but if your scene is already off the mathematical edges of the sensor, pushing EI around can’t fix the problem. You must rework the exposure itself either by adjusting the light, changing the Iris and/or ND, or in rare instances adjusting the shutter angle. EI does not in any way improve the underlying quality of the exposure.
Have you read Sony's own literature on Cine EI? It's certainly not described as a method to "...improve the client monitoring experience." I'll just copy and paste a bit from Sony: "Recording at the base ISO enables you to take full advantage of the image sensor performance. You can capture material that withstands color grading better, without becoming degraded. Depending on the EI, you can record by changing the balance of latitude between highlights and shadows. By allowing a wider latitude in shadows when shooting dark scenes and a wider latitude in highlights when shooting bright scenes, you can ensure that the final image will look better, with less noise. You can emphasize gradation in highlights when shooting at a higher EI, far from the same value as the base ISO, but this will increase noise and graininess, and color grading will become more difficult." The point of this video isn't to explain Cine EI, but to figure out what benefit, if any, there is to shooting Cine EI versus changing the actual ISO
@@PhillipRPeck From CineD last year: “This Cine EI mode is more suitable for studio environments, where the lighting can be precisely adjusted for any given scene. When working in Cine EI mode, the goal is to intentionally underexpose or overexpose a particular image and compensate by lowering or raising the EI setting accordingly. The result can be checked via the monitor LUT. Later, in post-production, the Cine EI metadata is automatically applied to the recorded video, along with the monitor LUT metadata, so that it looks exactly as it did on set. However, the resulting image has a wider dynamic range to play with, and the lowest possible noise for the particular camera and its sensor. There’s a very lengthy article on Abel Cine which spells out the same thing. It’s a “look” tool, nothing more. If you go to Flexible ISO, then you can push the sensor readout itself (up or down) which will produce more noise but which might pull a bit more usable data out of the noise floor. But EI just moves the numbers around. If the exposure range for a pixel is 0 to 255 with 0 as black and 255 EI can’t make up data outside that range.
The key assertion is that "...the resulting image has a wider dynamic range to play with, and the lowest possible noise floor..." That's the point of this video, to verify or disprove that claim. Again, I never claimed that either Cine EI or Flexible ISO makes up data outside the possible range, Sony (and CineD) is the one claiming that you get the best results by shooting in Cine EI. From my own test shots, I think that the image is essentially identical whether you shoot at ISO 200 or EI 200 at the base ISO. So, I'm not really sure what you're arguing about.
@@PhillipRPeck Hi Philip. You're right in so many ways here, you've only missed one piece of the puzzle. You said: "From my own test shots, I think that the image is essentially identical whether you shoot at ISO 200 or EI 200 at the base ISO [of 800]." And you are right to say that. However, a different ISO example will break your overall conclusion. For instance, instead of comparing ISO 200 and base 800 --> EI 200 in post-production, try comparing ISO 1600 and base 2500 --> EI 1600 in post-production. This will show that moving ABOVE base ISO 800 but still BELOW the second base ISO results in worse noise / dynamic range compared to using Cine EI (forced into base ISO) which keeps noise / dynamic range maximised. I do agree with you that Sony has been less than helpful in its messaging around Cine EI, trying to market it in a way that almost makes it sound like more than it is. When Sony says that it helps increase latitude, all they're referring to is two things: (1) being forced to use Base ISOs, and (2) allowing easier workflow of ETTR (expose to the right) by being able to monitor image at correct exposure while benefiting from ETTR. Those two things give you the extra latitude. Both of those variables (Base ISO usage and ETTR) can be used without Cine EI, but Sony is majorly patting itself on the back because Cine EI simply makes that already existing workflow smoother and easier to monitor, thus "enabling" greater latitude. Finally, as proof of Sony's inept messaging, they show a video "demonstrating" Cine EI, and at the 11:50 mark, they make the comparison to "cine EI" and "no Cine EI" to show better dynamic range / noise performance in the shadows. But even in their own words, the only difference is the "Cine EI" version has been overexposed by +2 stops (ETTR), and monitored at -2 stops using Cine EI. See the video here: ruclips.net/video/R_b2uCCjhfQ/видео.html Hope this helps. Again, your example of comparing 200 ISO vs base ISO lowered to 200 ISO is completely valid. But ISOs in between the two base ISOs are where the differences emerge in noise / dynamic range performance, and Cine EI is just a tool to enable base ISO usage along with ETTR exposure method. Cheers.
Really good follow-up video. You've come to the same conclusion as me - shooting in Cine EI offers no real benefits for the average user. It makes more sense to use Flexible ISO along with Zebras to nail the perfect exposure every time. Since I adopted this approach, I have yet to scream at my computer screen after importing overexposed footage with blown highlights. 🤣🤣
From what im seeing there was definitely a difference in the shadows. If you look at geralts face you can see There's more info in the shadows. You can also see this in the outdoor shot with the trees and the bike. So cine ei is working the way its supposed to be accurately shifting your dynamic range. At base 800 you're getting more stops in the shadows vs just adjusting your exposure
What I've been saying! :-) But your series of videos have been the best way to explain it. Ultimately, I find that the proponents of Cine EI live in a world of theory, compared to practical usage by good cinematographers who are constantly negotiating limitations in-the-field especially in regards to desired depth-of-field (aperture setting and focal length variables) that push down into settings that stray from base ISOs. I learned years ago from the Blackmagic ecosystem that the two base ISOs are cleanest with the most dynamic ranges, so it's always been in my head to hover around the base ISOs, yet still deviate as necessary prioritizing the exact look I want. And, more things swirling in a good cinematographer's head: lens glass clarity changes at different aperture values, and ND filters (used in the field where dynamic range is the most challenging) risk crosshairs and other damage to quality when throttled too high for preserving desired depth of field and dynamic range. This all makes fidelity to Sony's uptight obvio Cine EI "tool" practically meaningless to people who do on-the-go cinematography at a high level of delivery.
I feel like I need to make a follow-up to this follow-up because I don't think what I'm trying to say is getting across. Or maybe I need to show it in more scenarios. I thought the example of the talking head shot and the test shots indoors and outdoors shot in 4K 120 (potentially super noisy), the practical application was well-covered. You're right about all the variables and technical problems that need to be understood and accounted for. I think it's a lot for one-man-band types and novice to intermediate videographers to grapple with. I feel like I'm always messing up one thing or another on shoots because it never seems like there's enough time. Which is another reason I think understanding what happens with ISO could be crucial, but everyone on YT is so dogmatic about base ISO
@@PhillipRPeck Reminds me of "The Bad/Pouty" alter-Philip from The Old Monarchy bitching (while stroking his kitty cat like a beta Blofeld) about Sony not updating firmware to get their focus breathing compensation gimmick feature compatible with...just a few more Sony G Master lenses that nobody should be paying for anyway, when the entire history of formal cinematography has showcased focus breathing as an inevitable stylistic conceit. I'll always land on the side "get the shot as best you can," in lieu of getting Undone by bomb shelter motormouth hermits like Gerald. I second your skepticism that dogmatic fidelity to base ISO is uptight: a few clicks up or down and its effects on dynamic range, barely move the needle compared to billions of other variables in the field, most especially how a scene is getting lit (or receiving natural light).
Man, I‘m very happy to have found you! I‘m an experienced photographer, yet relatively new film maker and I was looking for someone who can explain those things (I asked myself why) in a deliberate, grounded and smart way… Instead of all this „yo wuz up bullshit videos“ out there. So keep up the good work. Thank you. 🙏
Most people don’t know that most Sony camera are ISO invariance which means at base (low and high) or outside those range, Sony does not amplify or curtail the capacitor sensitivity or voltages. So regardless if you’re shooting at base ISO or outside base ISO you’ll get the same information if you expose the camera properly. In dark scene, if you’re not exposing the scene correctly with say more lights or wider aperture, increasing the ISO above native (second gain) won’t help adding any information to the camera. So why they exist? Simply to lift your job in post by giving a higher or lower “brightness” to the metadata. And it also exists for viewing purpose while shooting. However the sensor does reduce some of the noisy signal at lower than base ISO (ISO 640 or 800) which means they do alter the voltage by sacrificing above middle grey dynamic range. This however only useful in a condition where you’re in a well lit studios that you can expose your camera perfect to 41% middle grey because why would you care if you loss 2 stops of highlights when you’re not even shooting for a sky in a studio.
I get it. I have an a74 but don’t have cine el due to it not being a cinema camera. What I do for low light is expose my image at base iso 800 bright as possible without clipping, and roughly set my exposure ratios using false colors, and then bring down the iso to my desired exposure mostly iso 400 to 640. After that I then fine tune the exposure ratios at one of those iso, and then bring it back up to base iso 800.
Shooting in Cine EI and RATING for a different value shines when you're shooting in an environment that will take advantage of the dynamic range boost on the lower or higher end. For instance, if you shoot a dark seen at iso 400 or even 200, at "proper exposure" you're going to have a ton of noise in the shadows. I'm sure you've heard the term, exposing to the right? (ETTR) Shooting in Cine EI mode and rating it for a different iso value, allows you to both expose to the right, and monitor what the outcome will be after adjusting for the difference in ISO values. On production sets... when night scenes are shot, it's often VERY well lit to the naked eye. They are filling the environment with light and bringing down in post and so long as contrast ratios on faces and objects match what you would see in a night time environment, you've got a great dark scene with little to no noise.
On that note, it doesn't make sense to go lower in ISO outside because of the loss in dynamic range in the highlights. You ARE going to clip either way. ODDLY... you can ND the hell out of your shot with a higher iso in the day and get more dynamic range from the highlights, but keep in mind, shadows will lose range and start to look flat the higher you go. You can really blow highlights by shooting at a lower ISO outdoors very easily if you're not careful. I've done it. I didn't know I was shooting at ISO 400 and the sun was hitting a very pail subject on her shoulder and her shoulder totally lost data in the hotspot. Hope this helps.
One last thought... rating for a different ISO and shooting at the base is similar to how film shooters would push and pull film. You can do this artistically to get different results in the image. It's worth looking into if you're interested in what it does to color.
I think you'd want to shoot at a higher ISO outdoors to preserve highlights and lower ISO when you can keep the highlights under control and maximize under exposed areas and keep the noise down
@@PhillipRPeck and that’s exactly what I’m saying and that’s the benefit of Cine EI is that you can monitor what 400 looks like while exposing to the right to burry the noise in the shadows.
Also though... I don't typically shoot at a higher iso outdoors during the day as the lenses I use and the 800 base is more than enough to capture plenty of light in the sensor. But knowing that dynamic range chart, if on the rare chance I couldn't get enough light in with aperture being wide open on a fast prime, then higher iso would be the natural option. If you're in an environment where it's dark and your maxed on aperture and shutter and you don't have the option of adding light in a production environment, going higher on iso is the only other option you have.
wait I thought the EI value is only a monitoring feature? in cine EI the camera is still recording at base ISO 800/2500 for fx30, regardless of the EI value right?
Yes that's right! As I said in my comment it's very useful for seeing what your final image will look like without affecting the settings. Once you look at it in simple terms it's actually genius for not only monitoring image but for double checking highlight recovery and noisy shadows.
I believe Cine EI is that they removed all the ISO stops in between the base ISO to make it easier to go from the first 800 to 2500 (fx30) 640 to 12,800 (A7S3) I know for me when I use the A7S3 I only use 640 and 12,800 that’s it. I wish I had Cine EI so I can easily go from one to the other. I have to scroll which takes time :(
Awesome. I will be exposing for my new FX 30 soon and I would much prefer to know where my exposure is going and have it fully under my control. For me, Cine EI would not be a good option for that. Thanks for your work on this, it is very helpful for when I do my own testing.
Can you tell me if this is correct? You only have 2 Base ISOs that you can choose from in Cine EI. When changing the EI values in your camera you're not actually changing anything with the exposure of your real image file... it only changes how you see the image in your monitor. The reason to adjust your EI values are only for you to see how to adjust the exposure through lighting, ND, or Aperture, So if you want clean shadows you lower your EI value. This darkens the scene in your monitor and you realize you need to bring in more lights for your subject to be properly exposed because everything has gotten darker. Then when you bring this footage into your grading software all looks overexposed. But you'll just bring down the exposure to correctly expose your subject and your shadows will be clean! Is this correct?
i have the fx 30 and i prefer to use slog3 on the picture profiles instead on the EI menu because in the EI menu it lows the sharpness, and at least in premiere pro if you increase the sharpness its worse than the value on the camera. On premiere is like it had aliasing, its not a clean sharpness in comparison with the native on camera
Try using the Unsharp Mask instead. It's been a while since I've messed around in Premiere, but I remember that effect giving you much more control over sharpening than just the basic slider in Lumetri
@@PhillipRPeck oh i search for that and its seems interesting... but i really dont like that EI low sharpness... i prefer the native sharpness of the camera on the picture profiles so i dont have to add more on post... and even the results may vary on differents softwares thanks!!!
So the question posed, as far as I understand, is "Why would you use Cine EI mode when you can achieve the same final look (with the same dynamic range) by simply lowering the ISO in Flexible ISO mode?" One answer, as far as I've worked out sitting here fiddling with my camera, is that Cine EI is most useful when you are shooting at your camera's HIGH BASE ISO. Here's an example scenario that will show what I mean. Let's say I'm exposing for a room with a high contrast ratio between light and shadow, PLUS I can clearly see some overhead lightbulbs in the shot. My goal is to get the cleanest possible image from my FX3 or FX30 without loosing any relevant information in my image. In order to keep my shadows from being crushed in this scenario, I deem that I need to be at my camera's high base ISO. I'm going to accept that the overhead lightbulbs in my shot will be clipping, because if I were to expose for those, then my shadows would certainly be crushed and much of the image would be sitting on the "noise floor" of my camera's sensor (see Cullen Kelly's video here for a good explanation of why you'd "expose to the right" like this: ruclips.net/video/aB8ku9ET-dw/видео.htmlsi=MPjmE-2_X7PoRbSX ) . So at my High Base ISO (2500 or 12800, depending on camera) I use the other points of my exposure triangle to make the rest of my image as bright as possible without clipping anything else in my image besides those lightbulbs. I'm happy with the exposure and I've managed to keep the shadows out of the noisy low end of the camera sensor, retaining information throughout my image except those clipped light sources. Now, what I want to do is get an idea of what my image will look once I correct the exposure in post and also double check that the brightest non-clipping information in the shot is truly recoverable. HERE is where Cine EI comes in. I can use the Exposure Index as a tool to view my shot as I intend it to look after editing, and to double check that nothing in my image is clipping besides what I have deemed too bright to save. In lowering the EI (say from 12800 to 3200 on the FX3) I might bring my camera's multi-meter reading from +2.0 down to +0.3 I can now see a more balanced version of the shot that reflects my intention for the edit. I can also see where my shot's non-clipped highlights will react when pulling my exposure back down in the edit. If anything in my shot besides the clipped sources does not respond to the lowering of my EI, then I can tell it is also clipped and adjust my exposure accordingly. If I were in flexible ISO mode, and tried to achieve the same effect by lowering the ISO, the moment I drop from my HIGH base of 12800 ISO down to 10000 ISO, I will introduce a lot of noise into my image because my camera will default to boosting the signal all the way up from the Low Base ISO of 800. In short, CINE EI is a tool that can help you expose a scene optimally for your scene by visualizing the desired final image and checking for clipped information, all WITHOUT introducing noise into your shot by keeping you locked into your BASE ISO. Yes, your image may have the same dynamic range at a different ISO, but it will be noisier than your Base ISO and you will alter the image itself if you try to monitor your final output by changing your ISO.
IMO the high base ISOs aren't all that good anyway. I think Sony achieves the "cleaner" signal by applying very aggressive noise reduction. I understand what you're saying, but I think you're missing my point in the video. Cine EI is a way that you can ETTR your shot while still being able to see your intended final exposure. You add more light to the sensor but instead of looking at an overexposed image on the monitor, you're looking at an exposure corrected image. But think about it this way. Set your ISO to 800 and properly expose your shot. Now lower the ISO to 200. Without changing any other exposure settings or adding more light, your image is underexposed by 2 stops. This is NOT ideal. So, increase the exposure by 2 stops (change aperture or shuter or add more light) and now you're right back to where you were at ISO 800. The resulting image will be exactly the same as if you were in Cine EI the low base ISO at EI 200 exposing correctly. This is what I'm saying. By lowering the ISO to 200 you're compensating by overexposing 2 stops. By shooting the base ISO EI 200, you're compensating by overexposing 2 stops. Same thing
CineEI as the word says it's made for cinema cameras, cinema cameras are made to be used for cinema productions. In those scenarios CineEI ensures the camera is operating at the ISOs that provide the most clear image the sensor can provide. Those productions are always in controlled enviroments and with proper lighting you have always the exposure the DP needs. You can use CineEI to shoot in less controlled scenarios but you lose flexibility so in some cases as such it's not recommended.
Actually…the EL zone system has helped me understand the sensor dynamic range thing. I think it’s present in all small HD monitors. Basically it’s a false color based on stops, not IRE. It goes up to +-6. It’s easy to see what’s going on as stops are stops. At Base ISO your scene might clip at 6 stops (depending on the sensor), but at lower Than base ISO it will clip at 5 4 or even 3 stops. This is not a problem because you compensate the exposure and everything seems to be fine, but it’s off. You can do the zone system without a monitor. Point at a dynamic scene and count how many stops before clipping after the 2 starts flashing. At base ISO it should give you more. This works for picture profiles also, not just log. FP cameras have Zone system also. If you search FP and EL system there is this couple that couldn’t figure out why their readings where off at 200 ISO with the zone system. So I think Sony EI is ideal for controlled environments where you want to get repeatable results. BTW exposing by stops, I am realizing there is a lot less differences between profiles.
In your examples your are exposing for the scene and filming reality. You don’t need cine EI, you might not even need slog3 either. On the other hand, imagine that you are filming with a creative vision. You want that warrior scene to be dramatic or high key or low key. In these kind of scenarios cine EI is great. You might want half a stop on the left side of the face and a background one step under, but a window that is 2 three stops above etc. cine EI is best for creative expression, as Sony calls it. I hope it helps
Hello, EL Zone works well on the Sigma FP. It should simply be used only at sensitivities that present equal dynamics between highlights and shadows (ISO 800 and 6400, see FP charts); to perfectly overlap with the El Zone which works with ± 6 stops. All other sensitivities will have a plus or minus offset. And, personally, I dream of a display system with variable offset, like Sony's Cine IE, for the sigma FP, because it has very poor Rec 709 visualization, and often one is forced to work while looking at an image completely over or under exposed, while the image signal is perfect, controlled with false colors. At a minimum, I will even accept to shoot permanently with the false colors activated at all times(not possible now), since in this mode the whole dynamic of the sensor is incomparably better represented, and since they are partial false colors, in black and white with only colored critical areas, it's usable for me!! I keep dreaming..
i am using the zone system for all my work now. It makes sense to me and it makes it fun. I use the spot meter that is all. ´dont have an FP or small rig monitors. Photographers have been using the zone system since the black and white days
I’m new too all this stuff, but I have the fx30 & I found a weird solution but weirdness to Cine EI, when your filming outside on a bright day and ETTR, Base 800 but 400 200 on EI Value, Your putting more focus on shadows, & If you go to the 2nd base of 2500 & bring down the EI 1250, it pushes more to highlights than shadows. Just a weird thing I ain’t seen being talked about
If you look at Sony's Cine EI dynamic range chart, you can see how this works. The higher EI value means more dynamic range in the highlights and less in the shadows. And the same principle works for ISO, where higher ISOs give you more dynamic range in the highlights. It's pretty counterintuitive--we think it's the reverse because we raise the ISO in low light situations.
@@PhillipRPeck oh definitely it’s complicated 😂, but yeah I been filming with my camera & sometimes it’s clean and exposure is correct, but other times there’s noise even when it’s a bright day, I heard when in low light to use flexible over cine ei but eh more videos to film and test 🙌🏼
@@Filmedbylamar The point of Cine EI is to allow you to 'expose to the right' and still see what your end result is going to look like. That's how you get the cleanest images with higher ISOs (and 800 is technically a high ISO and 2500 obviously even more so). If you film in Cine EI at the low base, but set your EI value to 200, but still expose for an even exposure, you're technically over-exposing by 2 full stops which will give you a crystal clean image
@@PhillipRPeck ohhhh that makes more sense! Yeah I got my zebras set at 60 +1 & flexible iso 800 & it was a clean image, but ISO 400 was cleaner, it’s just a learning curve lol, & I keep getting told Cine EI is only to be used during Scenes that are controlled, not everyday use. What’s your thoughts on that?
@@Filmedbylamar ISO can be used the same way--if you expose a scene at 800, then lower to ISO 400, it will be darker, right? But if you add more light (with shutter speed or aperture, etc.) to get the exposure back to the same as it was at 800, you're essentially over exposing by one stop and getting a cleaner image. I understand why people say Cine EI with controlled scenes because you want to be able to add actual video lights to re-expose... but there's no reason you can't use it whenever you want. If you can shoot in Flexible ISO but expose your image at +1.7 stops you could also shoot in Cine EI
You seem to have great acoustic room treatment, I've just ordered the Rode NT1 and my budget is running very thin, any tips on cheap room treatment? would be very much appreciated!
Part of it is just luck/circumstance. Small room, carpet on the floor, low ceilings + I thumbtacked two pieces of foam egg crates (for beds) on the ceiling. Curtains on the window. Really, the only thing I've done to acoustically "treat" the room is tack up the two foam egg crate pieces on the ceiling. Everything else is just... the room.
@@PhillipRPeck Yooo that's actually legendary, I already have a small room but sadly I dont have a carpet, or low ceiling so I'll have to figure something out. Did you order the foam egg crate pieces for ur ceiling?
My wife bought them from somewhere for that purpose. Getting a rug would help. Hanging some blankets temporarily is a good strategy. Lots of people use moving blankets
@@PhillipRPeck Yeah I'll definitely try using some blankets at first, and Ill try to figure out where to get some of these foam egg crate things aswell, thanks alot for ur advice man, as always!
Putting cardboard boxes or a pile of blankets in corners of your room can counter the Doppler effect. Simple physics, change the path which sound waves can move, it should reduce white noise. If it absorbs water, it should absorb sound. Your recordings will be more crisp and free of echo. Luxury foam isn’t necessary if you have laundry🤓
There's no magic in Cine EI. Cine EI is basically a LUT/metadata that shifts exposure for viewing (in-camera and in Catalyst). So if you, for example, overexpose by 2 stops and apply the according Cine EI, the image looks correctly exposed on your monitor. This way, you get cleaner shadows, but not because of any Cine EI magic, but because of exposing brighter than the final video is intended to be. It's basically the same principle as ETTR (expose to the right) in photography that has been around for ages to get cleaner shadows.
Cove EI is only useful when you have full control of if the lighting. If you’re at a wedding or somewhere you can’t get more light then just use custom.
I can’t be the only one seeing the major color shift in most of the setups and the additional noise on the Witcher figure on the flex footage ? Your skin tones and black shirt massively shift between the flex and EI footage… I’m also positive when your look at the scopes you will see a difference in the low end noise. Also you want to shoot at the high base ISO out doors… most of your image information is going to be mids and highs… so you are not going to be looking to protect your shadows… your protecting your highlights.
Major...? I'm not really seeing any color differences I'd classify as major. I also don't see any differences in the noise levels. As far as color, if there are differences, is one an improvement over the other? Would you shoot in one mode over the other based on a slight shift in color? I don't think you want to shoot in the high base ISO at all, unless you absolutely need to. The noise level is too high and the noise reduction is too aggressive to compensate
@@PhillipRPeck at the end of the day it would depend on the type of production you are working on and the demands of the project… your shirt goes from being black to washed out, almost like a camera that needs a lpf. The mention of noise at the higher base iso is more evident because of photon noise visible in low light conditions… shifting your iso up for images which reside mostly in highlight or mids actually isn’t an uncommon practice on film sets… always shoot in low ISO is similar to the often repeated idea you should always shoot wide open for best exposure(but every cinematographer learns pretty quickly everything with shallow depth of field isn’t worth the trade off unless the shot calls for shallow dof). This is why ISO charts show your usable dynamic range shift, counterintuitively shoot low iso for low key and higher iso for higher key. Also… turn the noise reduction either off or if you don’t have a good post workflow at least to low. Lastly if getting the cleanest image in high or lowlights and color isn’t vital… shoot s-cinetone at any iso you want, the vast majority of people really are going to find the image to be more then attractive, and on RUclips the vast majority will see the video on there phone, laptop or tablets… and they won’t notice a difference. We are in a pretty golden era and the performance of pretty much most cameras truly is good enough.
@@Vitaphone Thank you for the lesson. I have all this information covered in several videos on my channel. You can't turn off or adjust the noise reduction on Sony mirrorless cameras
@@PhillipRPeck MENU → (Shooting) → [Image Quality/Rec] → [High ISO NR] → desired setting. Menu item details Normal: Activates high ISO noise reduction normally. Low: Activates high ISO noise reduction moderately. Off: Does not activate high ISO noise reduction.
@@Vitaphone What camera are you referencing? As I said, these settings are not available in Sony "mirrorless" cameras like the FX3 and FX30 and the hybrid cameras
I love your video about loading luts, everything is fine i select private folder sony, pro, lut and i don't see any lut to download to my card and then into my camera. what am i missing?
On my ZV-E1, if I'm in very low light, the camera going between ISO8-10k and 12.8k is jarring, the image keeps flickering between beautiful/clean and super noisy. This seems like an example where something like Cine EI would help? - unfortunately the ZV-E1 only has Flexible ISO, is there any solution to this without going to completely manual ISO?
@@PhillipRPeck Not sure I understand what you mean? -- I want to shoot LOG, but if I'm going from a bright environment to a dark one, the camera going from ISO640 (the minimum I set) to ISO5,000+ the image often goes from SUPER noisy, basically unusable to super clean at that switch over to the second dual native ISO of 12,800. What would be useful is to blacklist ISO5000 to ISO12,000 so that if the camera needs to go above ISO5,000 it should immediately jump to ISO12,800 which gives a lovely clean image. Not sure what the solution would be here, at the moment I need to remember to switch to manual ISO and just put it on 12,800 whenever I know my ISO will be above 5,000, otherwise I get an unusable and super noisy image.
@@DigiDriftZone Oh, sorry. I somehow completely misread your initial comment 🙃Yeah, I don't think there is a way to "blacklist" all the other ISO values. I set the rear dial to ISO so it's very easy to flip ISO values. Maybe, you could set a custom profile for low base and one for high base...? But that introduces other complications to the workflow
I have seen a really good iso test showing that iso up to about 3200 is better than 12800 for the fact it’s less noisy in proper use. Also so many complaining 12800 is worse with 3.0 than it was in other versions maybe less noise reduction ?
I don't think the shot with the bike make sense. You overexposed the shot at 800 iso, and clipped the highlights too much of course you couldn't recover it. You still had rooms in the shadows so you couldn't see all the dynamic range that base iso has. In that shot, while using cine ei, you should have seen that the highlights were clipped. Lets say you are at 800 and put your value at 400, you see the shot as you would see it once corrected. You see that the highlights are clipped on your camera and the you should step it down(nd or aperture). The shot was not properly exposed, cine ei doesn't mean you have to overepose all the time and blow your hughlights.
I don't think I explained very well what I was trying to show: that there is no difference in using Cine EI at EI 400 or EI 200 (for instance) versus just shooting at ISO 400 or ISO 200. The images look the same. The possible dynamic range is the same. In each shot (800, 400, 200), I exposed for middle grey, not to protect the highlights. Also, the highlights weren't clipped at ISO 800 and EI 800 which demonstrates how the allocation of dynamic range shifts downward as you lower the ISO or lower the EI value that you're exposing for. Furthermore, you do need to overexpose to get cleaner footage in 4K120 on the FX30 and a6700. And that's the whole point of cine EI: allowing you to safely overexpose by monitoring what the shot will look like when the exposure has been corrected in post. Exposing your shot in EI 400 means that you are overexposing by one stop versus ISO 800 and shooting at EI 200 is overexposing two stops versus ISO 800
It’s useless. There is zero point in using a display LUT because your zebras and histo reflect the display LUT instead of the actual captured image - make sense of that 😂. No CineEI and no useless display LUTs for me.
Let me have a go at explaining based on my intuition of what is going on. Luminance is the most important thing in video codecs, almost all of the precision (in your 10bit codec) is used for storing luminance information (not colour information). I invite folks to use a monitor on their Sony cameras i.e. "monitor+" on your ipad and flick through the colour profiles i.e. PP4, PP8 etc and see what happens to the colour waveform scope. Anyone who understands how the "dynamics/compression" works in audio will immediately see what is happening, it's basically applying a curve to compress the highlights and shadows into a smaller space, it's "squeezing" the information together into the middle - so you can store more dynamic range in a smaller space. The wide gamut codec of Sony log footage also has more luminance precision i.e. 10K values rather than 1K values, but the codec is still 10bit which means you are actually losing precision in 2 ways, one that it's compressing your sensor data into a smaller space, and 2 that the wider gamut codec profile (note gamut is colour, not luminance) is representing a larger space but still with its 10 bit codec. So you might wonder why skintones always look better on SDR in a low dynamic range shot, this is why - there is way more precision being used for your skintones (they are stretched across more of your representation space, which always looks better). That's why for me, SLOGCineGamut should only be used when you actually need to capture a wide dynamic range (outside or changing light). Also - yes the camera only actually has 2 sensor modes (the base isos) and the ISO/EI adjustment just translates the distribution of values up and down to map onto the actual range of luminance your codec supports (for display only, not recording on EI), given that there is often more dynamic range "going in" than which can be stored, you need to make the tradeoff by shifting the distribution up and down, again, using the monitor app to see this effect actually happening when you switch ISO is illuminating (pun intended). As you point out, changing the EI doesn't change the base iso, but it does prompt you to adjust aperture or change your ND filter which does change the exposure (light going in). So then there is the important question of which picture profile (compression curve) does the Sony Cine function actually use, because this is the only real consideration in my opinion - it seems to use the PP4-5 range, which is a much milder compression than the higher ones i.e. PP8 - which means on high DR shots it might not be enough to capture both highlights and lowlights, but does mean you retain a fair bit of range for skintones. So based on this, it does indeed seem a bit pointless, you have far more control over the compression curve just adjusting the actual picture profiles and ISO doing it the "old way". Coming from a guy who has a Ph.D in signal processing but self-taught in cameras through trial and error, I hope my intuitions help people
Thanks Phillip, great video. I use cineEi to keep me in the base iso, also for dynamic range (whether I see it or not) but it's just a fool proof way to get the cleanest image.....it's still going to need exposing correctly just like any other camera.
We recently did a massive event in Paris and my friend who shoots Blackmagic and Lumix decided to shoot with one of my fx30's last minute because there were other teams filming and they all had FX3/FX30.
We had a quick meeting before the event and everyone was shooting cineEi. My friend was a bit apprehensive about getting a clean image but I told him to just shoot 800 or 2500 and if you hit a bright spot and the meter starts flashing you're over exposed....very simple.
Upon reviewing the footage he was so happy. It was easy for him to get great dynamic range & a clean image. I say all this because each pp has different base iso and cineEi is the highest and very easy to work with so very simple for a lot of camera ops to understand.
I'm sure to naked eye it may not look any different and I appreciate all the charts etc and definitely something everyone should look at but cineEi isn't Sony being a cheat😅
I love being able to expose cineEi down on camera and see how it looks without affecting footage. Really helps to see if my blown out spots can be recovered in post. I love it 😁
Hey, thanks for watching and commenting. I'm not trying to be proscriptive or telling people there's one right way to do things. I'm just trying to help people understand how the cameras are working.
Staying in the base ISO and overexposing with the meters (or histo or zebras or whatever) is just another method of staying in the base and using a lower EI value. The end goal is to bury the noise. But the compromise is also the same, you're losing stops in the highlights so that you gain stops in the shadows.
The point I'm trying to illustrate is that the dynamic range is finite. When you increase the ISO, you're shifting the dynamic range in favor of the highlights. When you lower the ISO, you're shifting the dynamic range from the highlights to the shadows. And it doesn't matter if you do it with Cine EI, ISO, or some other method of over or under-exposing. The results are the same
Pretty much everyone explains Cine EI inaccurately. EI is a post-exposure “look” tool that has nothing to do with “latitude” whatsoever. If at the base ISO you choose to push more light onto the sensor than a “normal” exposure would call for in order to grab more shadow detail (for instance), then you can use EI to pull the output “look” back so when you have a client or director looking over your shoulder, they see the more or less intended exposure which will be delivered after color correction. Fundamentally it’s a mathematical shift of a given Base ISO exposure for viewing purposes. That’s it. If something is blown out EI can’t help you recover it. Instead, you have to adjust the exposure up stream of the sensor. Or in other words, EI is a crude modification of the sensor data which can help improve the client monitoring experience, but if your scene is already off the mathematical edges of the sensor, pushing EI around can’t fix the problem. You must rework the exposure itself either by adjusting the light, changing the Iris and/or ND, or in rare instances adjusting the shutter angle. EI does not in any way improve the underlying quality of the exposure.
Have you read Sony's own literature on Cine EI? It's certainly not described as a method to "...improve the client monitoring experience."
I'll just copy and paste a bit from Sony:
"Recording at the base ISO enables you to take full advantage of the image sensor performance. You can capture material that withstands color grading better, without becoming degraded.
Depending on the EI, you can record by changing the balance of latitude between highlights and shadows. By allowing a wider latitude in shadows when shooting dark scenes and a wider latitude in highlights when shooting bright scenes, you can ensure that the final image will look better, with less noise. You can emphasize gradation in highlights when shooting at a higher EI, far from the same value as the base ISO, but this will increase noise and graininess, and color grading will become more difficult."
The point of this video isn't to explain Cine EI, but to figure out what benefit, if any, there is to shooting Cine EI versus changing the actual ISO
@@PhillipRPeck From CineD last year: “This Cine EI mode is more suitable for studio environments, where the lighting can be precisely adjusted for any given scene. When working in Cine EI mode, the goal is to intentionally underexpose or overexpose a particular image and compensate by lowering or raising the EI setting accordingly. The result can be checked via the monitor LUT.
Later, in post-production, the Cine EI metadata is automatically applied to the recorded video, along with the monitor LUT metadata, so that it looks exactly as it did on set. However, the resulting image has a wider dynamic range to play with, and the lowest possible noise for the particular camera and its sensor.
There’s a very lengthy article on Abel Cine which spells out the same thing. It’s a “look” tool, nothing more. If you go to Flexible ISO, then you can push the sensor readout itself (up or down) which will produce more noise but which might pull a bit more usable data out of the noise floor. But EI just moves the numbers around. If the exposure range for a pixel is 0 to 255 with 0 as black and 255 EI can’t make up data outside that range.
The key assertion is that "...the resulting image has a wider dynamic range to play with, and the lowest possible noise floor..."
That's the point of this video, to verify or disprove that claim.
Again, I never claimed that either Cine EI or Flexible ISO makes up data outside the possible range, Sony (and CineD) is the one claiming that you get the best results by shooting in Cine EI. From my own test shots, I think that the image is essentially identical whether you shoot at ISO 200 or EI 200 at the base ISO.
So, I'm not really sure what you're arguing about.
@@PhillipRPeck Hi Philip. You're right in so many ways here, you've only missed one piece of the puzzle. You said: "From my own test shots, I think that the image is essentially identical whether you shoot at ISO 200 or EI 200 at the base ISO [of 800]." And you are right to say that. However, a different ISO example will break your overall conclusion. For instance, instead of comparing ISO 200 and base 800 --> EI 200 in post-production, try comparing ISO 1600 and base 2500 --> EI 1600 in post-production. This will show that moving ABOVE base ISO 800 but still BELOW the second base ISO results in worse noise / dynamic range compared to using Cine EI (forced into base ISO) which keeps noise / dynamic range maximised.
I do agree with you that Sony has been less than helpful in its messaging around Cine EI, trying to market it in a way that almost makes it sound like more than it is. When Sony says that it helps increase latitude, all they're referring to is two things: (1) being forced to use Base ISOs, and (2) allowing easier workflow of ETTR (expose to the right) by being able to monitor image at correct exposure while benefiting from ETTR. Those two things give you the extra latitude. Both of those variables (Base ISO usage and ETTR) can be used without Cine EI, but Sony is majorly patting itself on the back because Cine EI simply makes that already existing workflow smoother and easier to monitor, thus "enabling" greater latitude.
Finally, as proof of Sony's inept messaging, they show a video "demonstrating" Cine EI, and at the 11:50 mark, they make the comparison to "cine EI" and "no Cine EI" to show better dynamic range / noise performance in the shadows. But even in their own words, the only difference is the "Cine EI" version has been overexposed by +2 stops (ETTR), and monitored at -2 stops using Cine EI. See the video here: ruclips.net/video/R_b2uCCjhfQ/видео.html
Hope this helps. Again, your example of comparing 200 ISO vs base ISO lowered to 200 ISO is completely valid. But ISOs in between the two base ISOs are where the differences emerge in noise / dynamic range performance, and Cine EI is just a tool to enable base ISO usage along with ETTR exposure method. Cheers.
Really good follow-up video. You've come to the same conclusion as me - shooting in Cine EI offers no real benefits for the average user. It makes more sense to use Flexible ISO along with Zebras to nail the perfect exposure every time. Since I adopted this approach, I have yet to scream at my computer screen after importing overexposed footage with blown highlights. 🤣🤣
Lol
From what im seeing there was definitely a difference in the shadows. If you look at geralts face you can see There's more info in the shadows. You can also see this in the outdoor shot with the trees and the bike. So cine ei is working the way its supposed to be accurately shifting your dynamic range. At base 800 you're getting more stops in the shadows vs just adjusting your exposure
What I've been saying! :-) But your series of videos have been the best way to explain it. Ultimately, I find that the proponents of Cine EI live in a world of theory, compared to practical usage by good cinematographers who are constantly negotiating limitations in-the-field especially in regards to desired depth-of-field (aperture setting and focal length variables) that push down into settings that stray from base ISOs. I learned years ago from the Blackmagic ecosystem that the two base ISOs are cleanest with the most dynamic ranges, so it's always been in my head to hover around the base ISOs, yet still deviate as necessary prioritizing the exact look I want. And, more things swirling in a good cinematographer's head: lens glass clarity changes at different aperture values, and ND filters (used in the field where dynamic range is the most challenging) risk crosshairs and other damage to quality when throttled too high for preserving desired depth of field and dynamic range. This all makes fidelity to Sony's uptight obvio Cine EI "tool" practically meaningless to people who do on-the-go cinematography at a high level of delivery.
I feel like I need to make a follow-up to this follow-up because I don't think what I'm trying to say is getting across. Or maybe I need to show it in more scenarios. I thought the example of the talking head shot and the test shots indoors and outdoors shot in 4K 120 (potentially super noisy), the practical application was well-covered.
You're right about all the variables and technical problems that need to be understood and accounted for. I think it's a lot for one-man-band types and novice to intermediate videographers to grapple with. I feel like I'm always messing up one thing or another on shoots because it never seems like there's enough time. Which is another reason I think understanding what happens with ISO could be crucial, but everyone on YT is so dogmatic about base ISO
@@PhillipRPeck Reminds me of "The Bad/Pouty" alter-Philip from The Old Monarchy bitching (while stroking his kitty cat like a beta Blofeld) about Sony not updating firmware to get their focus breathing compensation gimmick feature compatible with...just a few more Sony G Master lenses that nobody should be paying for anyway, when the entire history of formal cinematography has showcased focus breathing as an inevitable stylistic conceit. I'll always land on the side "get the shot as best you can," in lieu of getting Undone by bomb shelter motormouth hermits like Gerald. I second your skepticism that dogmatic fidelity to base ISO is uptight: a few clicks up or down and its effects on dynamic range, barely move the needle compared to billions of other variables in the field, most especially how a scene is getting lit (or receiving natural light).
@@focuspulling You certainly have a way with words... Anamorphic lenses used all over Hollywood movies forever have super obvious focus breathing.
Man, I‘m very happy to have found you! I‘m an experienced photographer, yet relatively new film maker and I was looking for someone who can explain those things (I asked myself why) in a deliberate, grounded and smart way… Instead of all this „yo wuz up bullshit videos“ out there. So keep up the good work. Thank you. 🙏
Thank you!
Most people don’t know that most Sony camera are ISO invariance which means at base (low and high) or outside those range, Sony does not amplify or curtail the capacitor sensitivity or voltages. So regardless if you’re shooting at base ISO or outside base ISO you’ll get the same information if you expose the camera properly. In dark scene, if you’re not exposing the scene correctly with say more lights or wider aperture, increasing the ISO above native (second gain) won’t help adding any information to the camera.
So why they exist? Simply to lift your job in post by giving a higher or lower “brightness” to the metadata. And it also exists for viewing purpose while shooting.
However the sensor does reduce some of the noisy signal at lower than base ISO (ISO 640 or 800) which means they do alter the voltage by sacrificing above middle grey dynamic range. This however only useful in a condition where you’re in a well lit studios that you can expose your camera perfect to 41% middle grey because why would you care if you loss 2 stops of highlights when you’re not even shooting for a sky in a studio.
I get it. I have an a74 but don’t have cine el due to it not being a cinema camera. What I do for low light is expose my image at base iso 800 bright as possible without clipping, and roughly set my exposure ratios using false colors, and then bring down the iso to my desired exposure mostly iso 400 to 640. After that I then fine tune the exposure ratios at one of those iso, and then bring it back up to base iso 800.
Shooting in Cine EI and RATING for a different value shines when you're shooting in an environment that will take advantage of the dynamic range boost on the lower or higher end. For instance, if you shoot a dark seen at iso 400 or even 200, at "proper exposure" you're going to have a ton of noise in the shadows. I'm sure you've heard the term, exposing to the right? (ETTR) Shooting in Cine EI mode and rating it for a different iso value, allows you to both expose to the right, and monitor what the outcome will be after adjusting for the difference in ISO values. On production sets... when night scenes are shot, it's often VERY well lit to the naked eye. They are filling the environment with light and bringing down in post and so long as contrast ratios on faces and objects match what you would see in a night time environment, you've got a great dark scene with little to no noise.
On that note, it doesn't make sense to go lower in ISO outside because of the loss in dynamic range in the highlights. You ARE going to clip either way. ODDLY... you can ND the hell out of your shot with a higher iso in the day and get more dynamic range from the highlights, but keep in mind, shadows will lose range and start to look flat the higher you go.
You can really blow highlights by shooting at a lower ISO outdoors very easily if you're not careful. I've done it. I didn't know I was shooting at ISO 400 and the sun was hitting a very pail subject on her shoulder and her shoulder totally lost data in the hotspot. Hope this helps.
One last thought... rating for a different ISO and shooting at the base is similar to how film shooters would push and pull film. You can do this artistically to get different results in the image. It's worth looking into if you're interested in what it does to color.
I think you'd want to shoot at a higher ISO outdoors to preserve highlights and lower ISO when you can keep the highlights under control and maximize under exposed areas and keep the noise down
@@PhillipRPeck and that’s exactly what I’m saying and that’s the benefit of Cine EI is that you can monitor what 400 looks like while exposing to the right to burry the noise in the shadows.
Also though... I don't typically shoot at a higher iso outdoors during the day as the lenses I use and the 800 base is more than enough to capture plenty of light in the sensor. But knowing that dynamic range chart, if on the rare chance I couldn't get enough light in with aperture being wide open on a fast prime, then higher iso would be the natural option.
If you're in an environment where it's dark and your maxed on aperture and shutter and you don't have the option of adding light in a production environment, going higher on iso is the only other option you have.
thank you for side by side comparison, no one else does comparison on cine ei
The best explanation I could find on the subject. Thanks!!!
Long story short. Cine EI is fixed to base iso and you can apply variable "luts" to check final image
wait I thought the EI value is only a monitoring feature? in cine EI the camera is still recording at base ISO 800/2500 for fx30, regardless of the EI value right?
Yes
Yes that's right! As I said in my comment it's very useful for seeing what your final image will look like without affecting the settings.
Once you look at it in simple terms it's actually genius for not only monitoring image but for double checking highlight recovery and noisy shadows.
I believe Cine EI is that they removed all the ISO stops in between the base ISO to make it easier to go from the first 800 to 2500 (fx30) 640 to 12,800 (A7S3)
I know for me when I use the A7S3 I only use 640 and 12,800 that’s it. I wish I had Cine EI so I can easily go from one to the other. I have to scroll which takes time :(
Awesome. I will be exposing for my new FX 30 soon and I would much prefer to know where my exposure is going and have it fully under my control. For me, Cine EI would not be a good option for that. Thanks for your work on this, it is very helpful for when I do my own testing.
Can you tell me if this is correct? You only have 2 Base ISOs that you can choose from in Cine EI. When changing the EI values in your camera you're not actually changing anything with the exposure of your real image file... it only changes how you see the image in your monitor. The reason to adjust your EI values are only for you to see how to adjust the exposure through lighting, ND, or Aperture, So if you want clean shadows you lower your EI value. This darkens the scene in your monitor and you realize you need to bring in more lights for your subject to be properly exposed because everything has gotten darker. Then when you bring this footage into your grading software all looks overexposed. But you'll just bring down the exposure to correctly expose your subject and your shadows will be clean! Is this correct?
Yep. You nailed it
i have the fx 30 and i prefer to use slog3 on the picture profiles instead on the EI menu because in the EI menu it lows the sharpness, and at least in premiere pro if you increase the sharpness its worse than the value on the camera. On premiere is like it had aliasing, its not a clean sharpness in comparison with the native on camera
Try using the Unsharp Mask instead. It's been a while since I've messed around in Premiere, but I remember that effect giving you much more control over sharpening than just the basic slider in Lumetri
@@PhillipRPeck oh i search for that and its seems interesting... but i really dont like that EI low sharpness... i prefer the native sharpness of the camera on the picture profiles so i dont have to add more on post... and even the results may vary on differents softwares
thanks!!!
So the question posed, as far as I understand, is "Why would you use Cine EI mode when you can achieve the same final look (with the same dynamic range) by simply lowering the ISO in Flexible ISO mode?"
One answer, as far as I've worked out sitting here fiddling with my camera, is that Cine EI is most useful when you are shooting at your camera's HIGH BASE ISO. Here's an example scenario that will show what I mean.
Let's say I'm exposing for a room with a high contrast ratio between light and shadow, PLUS I can clearly see some overhead lightbulbs in the shot. My goal is to get the cleanest possible image from my FX3 or FX30 without loosing any relevant information in my image.
In order to keep my shadows from being crushed in this scenario, I deem that I need to be at my camera's high base ISO. I'm going to accept that the overhead lightbulbs in my shot will be clipping, because if I were to expose for those, then my shadows would certainly be crushed and much of the image would be sitting on the "noise floor" of my camera's sensor (see Cullen Kelly's video here for a good explanation of why you'd "expose to the right" like this: ruclips.net/video/aB8ku9ET-dw/видео.htmlsi=MPjmE-2_X7PoRbSX ) .
So at my High Base ISO (2500 or 12800, depending on camera) I use the other points of my exposure triangle to make the rest of my image as bright as possible without clipping anything else in my image besides those lightbulbs. I'm happy with the exposure and I've managed to keep the shadows out of the noisy low end of the camera sensor, retaining information throughout my image except those clipped light sources. Now, what I want to do is get an idea of what my image will look once I correct the exposure in post and also double check that the brightest non-clipping information in the shot is truly recoverable.
HERE is where Cine EI comes in.
I can use the Exposure Index as a tool to view my shot as I intend it to look after editing, and to double check that nothing in my image is clipping besides what I have deemed too bright to save. In lowering the EI (say from 12800 to 3200 on the FX3) I might bring my camera's multi-meter reading from +2.0 down to +0.3 I can now see a more balanced version of the shot that reflects my intention for the edit. I can also see where my shot's non-clipped highlights will react when pulling my exposure back down in the edit. If anything in my shot besides the clipped sources does not respond to the lowering of my EI, then I can tell it is also clipped and adjust my exposure accordingly.
If I were in flexible ISO mode, and tried to achieve the same effect by lowering the ISO, the moment I drop from my HIGH base of 12800 ISO down to 10000 ISO, I will introduce a lot of noise into my image because my camera will default to boosting the signal all the way up from the Low Base ISO of 800.
In short, CINE EI is a tool that can help you expose a scene optimally for your scene by visualizing the desired final image and checking for clipped information, all WITHOUT introducing noise into your shot by keeping you locked into your BASE ISO. Yes, your image may have the same dynamic range at a different ISO, but it will be noisier than your Base ISO and you will alter the image itself if you try to monitor your final output by changing your ISO.
IMO the high base ISOs aren't all that good anyway. I think Sony achieves the "cleaner" signal by applying very aggressive noise reduction. I understand what you're saying, but I think you're missing my point in the video. Cine EI is a way that you can ETTR your shot while still being able to see your intended final exposure. You add more light to the sensor but instead of looking at an overexposed image on the monitor, you're looking at an exposure corrected image. But think about it this way. Set your ISO to 800 and properly expose your shot. Now lower the ISO to 200. Without changing any other exposure settings or adding more light, your image is underexposed by 2 stops. This is NOT ideal. So, increase the exposure by 2 stops (change aperture or shuter or add more light) and now you're right back to where you were at ISO 800. The resulting image will be exactly the same as if you were in Cine EI the low base ISO at EI 200 exposing correctly. This is what I'm saying. By lowering the ISO to 200 you're compensating by overexposing 2 stops. By shooting the base ISO EI 200, you're compensating by overexposing 2 stops. Same thing
CineEI as the word says it's made for cinema cameras, cinema cameras are made to be used for cinema productions. In those scenarios CineEI ensures the camera is operating at the ISOs that provide the most clear image the sensor can provide.
Those productions are always in controlled enviroments and with proper lighting you have always the exposure the DP needs.
You can use CineEI to shoot in less controlled scenarios but you lose flexibility so in some cases as such it's not recommended.
Actually…the EL zone system has helped me understand the sensor dynamic range thing. I think it’s present in all small HD monitors. Basically it’s a false color based on stops, not IRE. It goes up to +-6. It’s easy to see what’s going on as stops are stops. At Base ISO your scene might clip at 6 stops (depending on the sensor), but at lower Than base ISO it will clip at 5 4 or even 3 stops. This is not a problem because you compensate the exposure and everything seems to be fine, but it’s off. You can do the zone system without a monitor. Point at a dynamic scene and count how many stops before clipping after the 2 starts flashing. At base ISO it should give you more. This works for picture profiles also, not just log. FP cameras have Zone system also. If you search FP and EL system there is this couple that couldn’t figure out why their readings where off at 200 ISO with the zone system. So I think Sony EI is ideal for controlled environments where you want to get repeatable results. BTW exposing by stops, I am realizing there is a lot less differences between profiles.
In your examples your are exposing for the scene and filming reality. You don’t need cine EI, you might not even need slog3 either. On the other hand, imagine that you are filming with a creative vision. You want that warrior scene to be dramatic or high key or low key. In these kind of scenarios cine EI is great. You might want half a stop on the left side of the face and a background one step under, but a window that is 2 three stops above etc. cine EI is best for creative expression, as Sony calls it. I hope it helps
Hello, EL Zone works well on the Sigma FP. It should simply be used only at sensitivities that present equal dynamics between highlights and shadows (ISO 800 and 6400, see FP charts); to perfectly overlap with the El Zone which works with ± 6 stops. All other sensitivities will have a plus or minus offset. And, personally, I dream of a display system with variable offset, like Sony's Cine IE, for the sigma FP, because it has very poor Rec 709 visualization, and often one is forced to work while looking at an image completely over or under exposed, while the image signal is perfect, controlled with false colors. At a minimum, I will even accept to shoot permanently with the false colors activated at all times(not possible now), since in this mode the whole dynamic of the sensor is incomparably better represented, and since they are partial false colors, in black and white with only colored critical areas, it's usable for me!! I keep dreaming..
i am using the zone system for all my work now. It makes sense to me and it makes it fun. I use the spot meter that is all. ´dont have an FP or small rig monitors. Photographers have been using the zone system since the black and white days
Thanks for that comprehensive test!
help me understand: Using flexible ISO is a good strategy to raise exposure when base iso is underexposed?
Sure. You can always raise the ISO to increase the exposure
I’m new too all this stuff, but I have the fx30 & I found a weird solution but weirdness to Cine EI, when your filming outside on a bright day and ETTR, Base 800 but 400 200 on EI Value, Your putting more focus on shadows, & If you go to the 2nd base of 2500 & bring down the EI 1250, it pushes more to highlights than shadows. Just a weird thing I ain’t seen being talked about
If you look at Sony's Cine EI dynamic range chart, you can see how this works. The higher EI value means more dynamic range in the highlights and less in the shadows. And the same principle works for ISO, where higher ISOs give you more dynamic range in the highlights. It's pretty counterintuitive--we think it's the reverse because we raise the ISO in low light situations.
@@PhillipRPeck oh definitely it’s complicated 😂, but yeah I been filming with my camera & sometimes it’s clean and exposure is correct, but other times there’s noise even when it’s a bright day, I heard when in low light to use flexible over cine ei but eh more videos to film and test 🙌🏼
@@Filmedbylamar The point of Cine EI is to allow you to 'expose to the right' and still see what your end result is going to look like. That's how you get the cleanest images with higher ISOs (and 800 is technically a high ISO and 2500 obviously even more so).
If you film in Cine EI at the low base, but set your EI value to 200, but still expose for an even exposure, you're technically
over-exposing by 2 full stops which will give you a crystal clean image
@@PhillipRPeck ohhhh that makes more sense! Yeah I got my zebras set at 60 +1 & flexible iso 800 & it was a clean image, but ISO 400 was cleaner, it’s just a learning curve lol, & I keep getting told Cine EI is only to be used during Scenes that are controlled, not everyday use. What’s your thoughts on that?
@@Filmedbylamar ISO can be used the same way--if you expose a scene at 800, then lower to ISO 400, it will be darker, right? But if you add more light (with shutter speed or aperture, etc.) to get the exposure back to the same as it was at 800, you're essentially over exposing by one stop and getting a cleaner image.
I understand why people say Cine EI with controlled scenes because you want to be able to add actual video lights to re-expose... but there's no reason you can't use it whenever you want. If you can shoot in Flexible ISO but expose your image at +1.7 stops you could also shoot in Cine EI
super helpful, thank you!
You seem to have great acoustic room treatment, I've just ordered the Rode NT1 and my budget is running very thin, any tips on cheap room treatment? would be very much appreciated!
Part of it is just luck/circumstance. Small room, carpet on the floor, low ceilings + I thumbtacked two pieces of foam egg crates (for beds) on the ceiling. Curtains on the window.
Really, the only thing I've done to acoustically "treat" the room is tack up the two foam egg crate pieces on the ceiling. Everything else is just... the room.
@@PhillipRPeck Yooo that's actually legendary, I already have a small room but sadly I dont have a carpet, or low ceiling so I'll have to figure something out. Did you order the foam egg crate pieces for ur ceiling?
My wife bought them from somewhere for that purpose. Getting a rug would help. Hanging some blankets temporarily is a good strategy. Lots of people use moving blankets
@@PhillipRPeck Yeah I'll definitely try using some blankets at first, and Ill try to figure out where to get some of these foam egg crate things aswell, thanks alot for ur advice man, as always!
Putting cardboard boxes or a pile of blankets in corners of your room can counter the Doppler effect. Simple physics, change the path which sound waves can move, it should reduce white noise. If it absorbs water, it should absorb sound. Your recordings will be more crisp and free of echo. Luxury foam isn’t necessary if you have laundry🤓
Thanks man... learning alot from your videos.
Glad to hear it!
Just stick to iso800 for every single shoot unless you’re outdoors and can’t control light.
There's no magic in Cine EI. Cine EI is basically a LUT/metadata that shifts exposure for viewing (in-camera and in Catalyst). So if you, for example, overexpose by 2 stops and apply the according Cine EI, the image looks correctly exposed on your monitor. This way, you get cleaner shadows, but not because of any Cine EI magic, but because of exposing brighter than the final video is intended to be. It's basically the same principle as ETTR (expose to the right) in photography that has been around for ages to get cleaner shadows.
Cove EI is only useful when you have full control of if the lighting. If you’re at a wedding or somewhere you can’t get more light then just use custom.
Love your stuff
I can’t be the only one seeing the major color shift in most of the setups and the additional noise on the Witcher figure on the flex footage ?
Your skin tones and black shirt massively shift between the flex and EI footage… I’m also positive when your look at the scopes you will see a difference in the low end noise.
Also you want to shoot at the high base ISO out doors… most of your image information is going to be mids and highs… so you are not going to be looking to protect your shadows… your protecting your highlights.
Major...? I'm not really seeing any color differences I'd classify as major. I also don't see any differences in the noise levels. As far as color, if there are differences, is one an improvement over the other? Would you shoot in one mode over the other based on a slight shift in color?
I don't think you want to shoot in the high base ISO at all, unless you absolutely need to. The noise level is too high and the noise reduction is too aggressive to compensate
@@PhillipRPeck at the end of the day it would depend on the type of production you are working on and the demands of the project… your shirt goes from being black to washed out, almost like a camera that needs a lpf.
The mention of noise at the higher base iso is more evident because of photon noise visible in low light conditions… shifting your iso up for images which reside mostly in highlight or mids actually isn’t an uncommon practice on film sets… always shoot in low ISO is similar to the often repeated idea you should always shoot wide open for best exposure(but every cinematographer learns pretty quickly everything with shallow depth of field isn’t worth the trade off unless the shot calls for shallow dof).
This is why ISO charts show your usable dynamic range shift, counterintuitively shoot low iso for low key and higher iso for higher key.
Also… turn the noise reduction either off or if you don’t have a good post workflow at least to low.
Lastly if getting the cleanest image in high or lowlights and color isn’t vital… shoot s-cinetone at any iso you want, the vast majority of people really are going to find the image to be more then attractive, and on RUclips the vast majority will see the video on there phone, laptop or tablets… and they won’t notice a difference.
We are in a pretty golden era and the performance of pretty much most cameras truly is good enough.
@@Vitaphone Thank you for the lesson. I have all this information covered in several videos on my channel. You can't turn off or adjust the noise reduction on Sony mirrorless cameras
@@PhillipRPeck MENU → (Shooting) → [Image Quality/Rec] → [High ISO NR] → desired setting.
Menu item details
Normal:
Activates high ISO noise reduction normally.
Low:
Activates high ISO noise reduction moderately.
Off:
Does not activate high ISO noise reduction.
@@Vitaphone What camera are you referencing? As I said, these settings are not available in Sony "mirrorless" cameras like the FX3 and FX30 and the hybrid cameras
I love your video about loading luts, everything is fine i select private folder sony, pro, lut and i don't see any lut to download to my card and then into my camera. what am i missing?
You have to have a LUT file on your computer to drop into the LUT folder on the SD card
On my ZV-E1, if I'm in very low light, the camera going between ISO8-10k and 12.8k is jarring, the image keeps flickering between beautiful/clean and super noisy. This seems like an example where something like Cine EI would help? - unfortunately the ZV-E1 only has Flexible ISO, is there any solution to this without going to completely manual ISO?
Just turn off log shooting mode and you'll have access to the other picture profiles. S-Cinetone is PP11. Then just turn it to auto ISO
@@PhillipRPeck Not sure I understand what you mean? -- I want to shoot LOG, but if I'm going from a bright environment to a dark one, the camera going from ISO640 (the minimum I set) to ISO5,000+ the image often goes from SUPER noisy, basically unusable to super clean at that switch over to the second dual native ISO of 12,800.
What would be useful is to blacklist ISO5000 to ISO12,000 so that if the camera needs to go above ISO5,000 it should immediately jump to ISO12,800 which gives a lovely clean image.
Not sure what the solution would be here, at the moment I need to remember to switch to manual ISO and just put it on 12,800 whenever I know my ISO will be above 5,000, otherwise I get an unusable and super noisy image.
@@DigiDriftZone Oh, sorry. I somehow completely misread your initial comment 🙃Yeah, I don't think there is a way to "blacklist" all the other ISO values. I set the rear dial to ISO so it's very easy to flip ISO values. Maybe, you could set a custom profile for low base and one for high base...? But that introduces other complications to the workflow
Noisy footage cabs no dynamic range benefit = 🗑️…
Sorry.
What?
Personal experience or troll?
So... Adjusting ISO on this camera is a lie!!!
No...
I have seen a really good iso test showing that iso up to about 3200 is better than 12800 for the fact it’s less noisy in proper use. Also so many complaining 12800 is worse with 3.0 than it was in other versions maybe less noise reduction ?
fx30 .....
I'm not sure how the firmware has affected the FX3, but I can say that 12800 has always been trash on the a7SIII
I don't think the shot with the bike make sense. You overexposed the shot at 800 iso, and clipped the highlights too much of course you couldn't recover it. You still had rooms in the shadows so you couldn't see all the dynamic range that base iso has. In that shot, while using cine ei, you should have seen that the highlights were clipped. Lets say you are at 800 and put your value at 400, you see the shot as you would see it once corrected. You see that the highlights are clipped on your camera and the you should step it down(nd or aperture). The shot was not properly exposed, cine ei doesn't mean you have to overepose all the time and blow your hughlights.
I don't think I explained very well what I was trying to show: that there is no difference in using Cine EI at EI 400 or EI 200 (for instance) versus just shooting at ISO 400 or ISO 200. The images look the same. The possible dynamic range is the same. In each shot (800, 400, 200), I exposed for middle grey, not to protect the highlights. Also, the highlights weren't clipped at ISO 800 and EI 800 which demonstrates how the allocation of dynamic range shifts downward as you lower the ISO or lower the EI value that you're exposing for.
Furthermore, you do need to overexpose to get cleaner footage in 4K120 on the FX30 and a6700. And that's the whole point of cine EI: allowing you to safely overexpose by monitoring what the shot will look like when the exposure has been corrected in post. Exposing your shot in EI 400 means that you are overexposing by one stop versus ISO 800 and shooting at EI 200 is overexposing two stops versus ISO 800
It’s useless. There is zero point in using a display LUT because your zebras and histo reflect the display LUT instead of the actual captured image - make sense of that 😂. No CineEI and no useless display LUTs for me.
Unless you want to know whether 709 will clip. They have a config knob for everything but not changing the order of exposure assistants 😐