Nice work and good demonstration. As you say, I doubt a C contrabass oboe would have a boot joint. So I suspect that an oboe maker would probably divide it up so that the instrument is taller, while the RH joint contains keywork down to low C (low D tonehole), leaving the ascending portion with just the low C#, B, and Bb keys (low C#, C, and B toneholes).
When you started showing the great bassoon and comparing it to what a contra oboe might be like, I couldn’t help but think a contra oboe could possibly look similar to the lupophone.
You're right that it would probably look like a lupophone however, it would be twice the size, kind of like the size difference between a tenor and bass saxophone
The original contrabass/double-bass oboes (actually called basse de cromornes) were 6 feet tall, so any new one would have to be folded over (essentially a larger version of the lupophone). Also why not extend it to low A an octave below the heckelphone!
Sorry some of the journal article citation missing. here is the full citation: Schmid, Manfred Hermann: ‘Kontrabass-Oboe und Grossbass-Pommer: Zu Traditionsuberlagerungen im 18. Jahrhundert’, Musik in Baden - Wurttemberg Jahrbuch, Band 1, 1994, pp. 96-121.
I see that the first part of my reply is missing. The basses de cromorne were more than 6 feet long - probably more like 8 as the pitch is the same as the bassoon (although probably not down to low Bb). There are two of these surviving: one by Heise (probably not playable as it has some splits) now in a Museum in Germany, and the other by Delusse in the Musee de la Musique in Paris. Copies have been made of the Paris instrument and played by Jeremie Papasergio on the DVD Charpentier : Automne Musical a Versailles and on the CD of Charpentier's Messe pour Plusieurs Instruments on the Ricercar label. This instrument is slightly less oboelike than the Heise Instrument of which there is a photograph taken by me somewhere on the web (web address too long to post here). The sound is not dissimilar to a modern bassoon but very different (less stuffy and louder) from a baroque bassoon.
I have some unfortunate news. I got to talk to the CEO of Loree, and when brought up this topic, he said " That is a Bassoon". From the looks of things Loree has no plans to make a contra bass oboe. :(
The bassoon is basically a tenor pitched oboe with an extended low range so a contrabass oboe would have a larger bore and have a deeper sound than a bassoon despite having a similar lowest note
Basically, I believe that for the lower double reed woodwind family to be improved, bassoons and contrabassoons should be replaced by giant tenor baritone bass contrabass oboes kinda like the saxophone and clarinet family
Is there a difference between the taper of the bore of a Contrabass Oboe and the Great Bassoon? It seems like there should be, but even if the bore dimensions were the same I would still really love to see at least one built, as there is only one sure way to know if the timbre of the instrument is different then a bassoon playing the same relative pitch, and that's to hear them side by side. I am also curious how you will handle reeds for a contrabass oboe, and to what degree you could get away with using a bassoon reed. I have heard bassoonists joke that taking off the long joint and bell from their bassoon turns them into a bass oboe, but i dont really think the two instruments really sound the same. (granted the bassoon is still lower in pitch and more similar to an great bass oboe in F)
I personally think that even thinking about the idea of Contrabass Oboe is futile, to be frank, especially when we don't even have a real instrument between the Bass Oboe and this hypothetical Contrabass Oboe. I sincerely hope someone would design a real Oboe in F that would be below the Bass Oboe we currently have; I think that the Lupophone is a wonderful instrument but I'm not convinced with it's design diverging from traditional Oboe construction. I would like an instrument that gets rid of all the influences coming from the Heckelphone and the Bassoon, and instead one that follows a construction similar to that of the Cor Anglais and the Bass Oboe. That instrument is what I would call the true "Bass Oboe" and so we could rename the instrument in the tenor range as "Tenor Oboe" (I know you prefer the name "Baritone Oboe" for the instrument below the Tenor Oboe, but I prefer to leave the term "Baritone" to be exclusive to the Saxophone family and the Baritone Horn). That is the instrument that I would like someone to design and that I see is the one that we should be thinking about. And frankly, I would stop there, I see no point in continuing to extend the family of Oboes further down, although in the moment we have a true Bass Oboe in F I'm not going to stop anyone from creating another lower instrument. In the past I didn't want to use the Great Bass Clarinet or the Tenoroon but your videos of those instruments ended up convincing me, and I think the Greatbassoon project is fantastic, so I can change mind. I hope you can successfully bring us that beast soon, but take all the time you need.
I've toyed with the ideas of both instruments. Th F instrument would be easier to make, but the C instrument would fill a bigger need (if found to be viable).
@@BretNewtonComposer Thinking about it, as long as the hypothetical instrument maintains consistency with the rest of the family I'm ok with whatever of the two. I referred to the instrument as "in F" mostly to keep up the C-F alternations between the members.
A lot of the reason manufacturers stopped making obscure instruments is because their pitch was covered well by other instruments that were easier to play. The bassoon would be more nimble, nicer toned, and easier to play than a contra oboe. That’s probably why Loreé never made one. Why spend all that manufacturing money on an instrument who’s pitch is already covered?
Thats like saying a bass trombone should be used instead of tubas because they are easier to play. However, a tuba has a deeper and larger sound and because of that, its more difficult to play and more expensive to make. Yet people continue to create tubas for their breathtaking deep contrabass sound
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Nice work and good demonstration. As you say, I doubt a C contrabass oboe would have a boot joint. So I suspect that an oboe maker would probably divide it up so that the instrument is taller, while the RH joint contains keywork down to low C (low D tonehole), leaving the ascending portion with just the low C#, B, and Bb keys (low C#, C, and B toneholes).
Good job Bret. I wish a contra oboe existed. Imagine pairing it with a Bass sax in a band...
I think you can get a close approximation with a bass or baritone sarrusophone
Imagine a string quartet, but instead of string instruments it was just four contra oboes
When you started showing the great bassoon and comparing it to what a contra oboe might be like, I couldn’t help but think a contra oboe could possibly look similar to the lupophone.
You're right that it would probably look like a lupophone however, it would be twice the size, kind of like the size difference between a tenor and bass saxophone
Could you build one when you finish the greatbassoon?
Also is the thumbnail just a heckelphone in 2 pieces?
It's an old Triebert Bass Oboe
The original contrabass/double-bass oboes (actually called basse de cromornes) were 6 feet tall, so any new one would have to be folded over (essentially a larger version of the lupophone).
Also why not extend it to low A an octave below the heckelphone!
Sorry some of the journal article citation missing. here is the full citation: Schmid, Manfred Hermann: ‘Kontrabass-Oboe und Grossbass-Pommer: Zu Traditionsuberlagerungen im 18. Jahrhundert’, Musik in Baden - Wurttemberg Jahrbuch, Band 1, 1994, pp. 96-121.
I see that the first part of my reply is missing. The basses de cromorne were more than 6 feet long - probably more like 8 as the pitch is the same as the bassoon (although probably not down to low Bb). There are two of these surviving: one by Heise (probably not playable as it has some splits) now in a Museum in Germany, and the other by Delusse in the Musee de la Musique in Paris. Copies have been made of the Paris instrument and played by Jeremie Papasergio on the DVD Charpentier : Automne Musical a Versailles and on the CD of Charpentier's Messe pour Plusieurs Instruments on the Ricercar label. This instrument is slightly less oboelike than the Heise Instrument of which there is a photograph taken by me somewhere on the web (web address too long to post here). The sound is not dissimilar to a modern bassoon but very different (less stuffy and louder) from a baroque bassoon.
What about the baroque basse de cromorne- a refined F Bass shawm?
Lupophone or a hecklephnone?
I have some unfortunate news. I got to talk to the CEO of Loree, and when brought up this topic, he said " That is a Bassoon". From the looks of things Loree has no plans to make a contra bass oboe. :(
The bassoon is basically a tenor pitched oboe with an extended low range so a contrabass oboe would have a larger bore and have a deeper sound than a bassoon despite having a similar lowest note
Basically, I believe that for the lower double reed woodwind family to be improved, bassoons and contrabassoons should be replaced by giant tenor baritone bass contrabass oboes kinda like the saxophone and clarinet family
Is there a difference between the taper of the bore of a Contrabass Oboe and the Great Bassoon? It seems like there should be, but even if the bore dimensions were the same I would still really love to see at least one built, as there is only one sure way to know if the timbre of the instrument is different then a bassoon playing the same relative pitch, and that's to hear them side by side. I am also curious how you will handle reeds for a contrabass oboe, and to what degree you could get away with using a bassoon reed. I have heard bassoonists joke that taking off the long joint and bell from their bassoon turns them into a bass oboe, but i dont really think the two instruments really sound the same. (granted the bassoon is still lower in pitch and more similar to an great bass oboe in F)
All of those questions are great unknowns right now. Hope to have answers soon.
I thought this was going to be a video throwing shade at the contrafore at first, LOL
Nah, I like the Contraforte
@@BretNewtonComposer 🔥🔥
I personally think that even thinking about the idea of Contrabass Oboe is futile, to be frank, especially when we don't even have a real instrument between the Bass Oboe and this hypothetical Contrabass Oboe. I sincerely hope someone would design a real Oboe in F that would be below the Bass Oboe we currently have; I think that the Lupophone is a wonderful instrument but I'm not convinced with it's design diverging from traditional Oboe construction. I would like an instrument that gets rid of all the influences coming from the Heckelphone and the Bassoon, and instead one that follows a construction similar to that of the Cor Anglais and the Bass Oboe. That instrument is what I would call the true "Bass Oboe" and so we could rename the instrument in the tenor range as "Tenor Oboe" (I know you prefer the name "Baritone Oboe" for the instrument below the Tenor Oboe, but I prefer to leave the term "Baritone" to be exclusive to the Saxophone family and the Baritone Horn).
That is the instrument that I would like someone to design and that I see is the one that we should be thinking about. And frankly, I would stop there, I see no point in continuing to extend the family of Oboes further down, although in the moment we have a true Bass Oboe in F I'm not going to stop anyone from creating another lower instrument. In the past I didn't want to use the Great Bass Clarinet or the Tenoroon but your videos of those instruments ended up convincing me, and I think the Greatbassoon project is fantastic, so I can change mind.
I hope you can successfully bring us that beast soon, but take all the time you need.
I've toyed with the ideas of both instruments. Th F instrument would be easier to make, but the C instrument would fill a bigger need (if found to be viable).
@@BretNewtonComposer Thinking about it, as long as the hypothetical instrument maintains consistency with the rest of the family I'm ok with whatever of the two. I referred to the instrument as "in F" mostly to keep up the C-F alternations between the members.
A lot of the reason manufacturers stopped making obscure instruments is because their pitch was covered well by other instruments that were easier to play.
The bassoon would be more nimble, nicer toned, and easier to play than a contra oboe.
That’s probably why Loreé never made one.
Why spend all that manufacturing money on an instrument who’s pitch is already covered?
Thats like saying a bass trombone should be used instead of tubas because they are easier to play. However, a tuba has a deeper and larger sound and because of that, its more difficult to play and more expensive to make. Yet people continue to create tubas for their breathtaking deep contrabass sound
@joefes7409 wouldn't it be better to argue the contrabass trombone and tuba?
The size of a bassoon I guess
Tenor saxophone