1. Moral Maturity - If the process of moral maturity is good, then it should continue in heaven? - If people are not perfectly morally mature before entering heaven, and God changes their desires upon entry, why not do this from the beginning? Given that all humans fall short, the difference in moral maturity between the most and least mature person is negligible compared to perfect moral maturity? - Consider babies who die in childbirth: > If moral maturity only occurs on earth and they die without achieving it, does that mean they can never be morally mature? > If they can mature in heaven, then earth still seems unnecessary? > If they mature in a place like purgatory, again, earth seems redundant? 2. God changes our desires (Freed will) - If God can grant us this 'freed will' to only choose good in heaven, why didn’t He create us with this will from the start? - If beings in heaven can be transformed to have a freed will and only choose good, why wasn’t this will given to Satan? - How is having our will changed not remove our free will in some way? 3. God's presence - Why assume that Satan didn't experience God's true presence? - If he did, and God's presence is irresistible, how did Satan sin? - Even if he didn't, why did he sin? Did he have a sinful nature, and if so, who created him with it? (Again, why not give him the 'Freed Will' God will supposedly give us?) - How does heaven genuinely allow for freedom if God's presence makes sin/rejection impossible? This seems to make us robots in heaven, which contradicts the idea that God allows suffering to grant us agency. 4. Becoming aware of the consequences of sin - The distribution of suffering is extremely unequal; some suffer far more than others for reasons beyond their control. If understanding the consequences of sin is the goal, suffering should be more equally distributed. - If babies dying in childbirth do not experience suffering (i.e. don't see the consequences of sin on earth) but still receive heaven’s benefits, why must anyone endure suffering? - Besides, God is the one who determined both what is sin, and what the consequences of sin are.
Asking this question is akin to asking how many pixies can fit in a thimble. One needs to demonstrate a pixie and heaven exist first to then have value/utility in the above question.
Thanks much! I think you're closest in your third reason, especially in the conclusion that this is the best possible world to get to the eternal world. Only in this world, where God allows evil, do we encounter Christ on the cross: arguably the greatest manifestation of God's glory in perfect righteous justice AND perfect loving mercy. Without this world, no cross, and without the cross we never see the entirety of God's glory.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There is no scenario where a god could test Adam and Eve where, if they chose to disobey god would gain a right to punish them. God needs to do two things: Willfully make the innocent and without sin suffer and it also needs to willfully deny them the information they need to make a considered decision on the fruit. God needs to willfully entrap them. God remains responsible for all evil i.e. the only reason for the test is to make man suffer in hell for gods entertainment. God can either make man good (by it's definition will never sin regardless of free will) or evil. If it is evil then man must prove god can make an evil man i.e. everyone is willfully created to be evil and must prove it. Heaven. There would be no reason for god's fake setup of a test for free will if you didn't have it in Heaven. It would be a sham. How does it work in heaven? God removes all suffering hence, as no one wants anything they don't already have, they have no free will reason to sin. (Which still makes the earth test pointless and irrelevant.) Hell. To get into heaven man must treat everyone as equal, forgive everyone, and love everyone as yourself. As those are your heaven requirements, you couldn't have a suffering free existence in heaven if you knew billions were going through an eternity of torment and suffering in hell therefore, in order for god to deliver the suffering free heaven it promised and enforce its rules, it would need to shut hell down meaning no one was going to be punished for doing evil. Again the free will test was pointless and a logical impossibility. Sorry, your free will test, heaven and hell are all logical impossibilities.
You are fighting against windmills, since your arguments only refute your faulty view of how the Bible describes God and free will. This makes you look stupid by the way. I would be embarrassed if I were you. God bless you!
You might be misinterpreting what Christian doctrine actually says. The only condition to get into Heaven (or, more accurately, the New Earth) is to believe in Jesus’s sacrifice. Of course, that entails believing in God, that God sent Jesus, and that Jesus resurrected as a result of God’s intervention. Furthermore, Christians can’t seem to agree if there are any extra criteria, bonus cases, or unforgivable sins. Those who deny Jesus’s divinity are called cults, despite being more historically correct. But they all agree on the basics. Of course, the irrelevancy of one’s actions is rather problematic, but most Christians would say that serving God makes them good people in spite of the many terrible things that one could justify on that basis.
@@seanpierce9386 So, when you get to the "Pearly Gates" e.g. Hitler, as long as he believed in Jesus he has a pass whereas Gandhi wouldn't. Who would believe in that god even if there was proof it existed (which will never occur)? As a point of interest, given this Jesus guy invention you mention actually supported the fact that the "Word" of his father in the Torah was all correct and accurate (read your bible) what you are saying is that his fathers commandments and rules to enter heaven were merely confirmed correct but not supported by Jesus. I guess the bottom line theory you are trying to sell is that Jesus was far more disobedient towards his father than Eve or Adams ever were (and look what happened to them), not to mention what happened when Lucifer rebelled against its rules. And, by the way, given heaven (as per the Torah) was a creation of god and you are stating Jesus is openly defying his fathers rules to enter it, to which heaven do you refer in connection with Jesus? Is there one I haven't heard of? Why don't you come back when you've figured out how it all works instead of being a Christians smart a##.
Jesus had freewill but was sinless, so probably something like that, but when it comes to the nature of heaven, how grace and freewill work together, and the nature of the divine, I'm willing to take these things as a mystery until the appointed time to know them
If god created the world as is and yet had the option to create a world where all had free will and also chose not to sin as Jesus did, then god failed. The failure is what we see now.
@@bignoob1790 that would only expose that gods cruelty and irrational actions and furthers the inability for us to choose otherwise, thereby removing freewill, as you said it was his plan.
@@j-joe-jeans Can you drive a car without completely understanding every mechanical aspect of the operations? I can trust that God has a plan that entails ultimate Good for all involved
@@bignoob1790 For one, you nor anyone has objectively demonstrated there is a god to trust. This makes the trust unwarranted and equivalent to trusting Pixies. I can and do drive a car, beyond it being objectively real and confirmable to any mind in our reality, I can and do understand much of its functioning and its components. Do you have a single component of a god to test and apply that knowledge to the whole? Just so you know, the argument you made is a fallacious one called a false analogy.
1. Moral Maturity
- If the process of moral maturity is good, then it should continue in heaven?
- If people are not perfectly morally mature before entering heaven, and God changes their desires upon entry, why not do this from the beginning? Given that all humans fall short, the difference in moral maturity between the most and least mature person is negligible compared to perfect moral maturity?
- Consider babies who die in childbirth:
> If moral maturity only occurs on earth and they die without achieving it, does that mean they can never be morally mature?
> If they can mature in heaven, then earth still seems unnecessary?
> If they mature in a place like purgatory, again, earth seems redundant?
2. God changes our desires (Freed will)
- If God can grant us this 'freed will' to only choose good in heaven, why didn’t He create us with this will from the start?
- If beings in heaven can be transformed to have a freed will and only choose good, why wasn’t this will given to Satan?
- How is having our will changed not remove our free will in some way?
3. God's presence
- Why assume that Satan didn't experience God's true presence?
- If he did, and God's presence is irresistible, how did Satan sin?
- Even if he didn't, why did he sin? Did he have a sinful nature, and if so, who created him with it? (Again, why not give him the 'Freed Will' God will supposedly give us?)
- How does heaven genuinely allow for freedom if God's presence makes sin/rejection impossible? This seems to make us robots in heaven, which contradicts the idea that God allows suffering to grant us agency.
4. Becoming aware of the consequences of sin
- The distribution of suffering is extremely unequal; some suffer far more than others for reasons beyond their control. If understanding the consequences of sin is the goal, suffering should be more equally distributed.
- If babies dying in childbirth do not experience suffering (i.e. don't see the consequences of sin on earth) but still receive heaven’s benefits, why must anyone endure suffering?
- Besides, God is the one who determined both what is sin, and what the consequences of sin are.
Sin is falling short or missing the mark
Which leads to guilt and fear
A longer way of saying that the logic is flawed in the Christian apologetics herein etc.
Thanks for saving us all the time and effort! I noticed a few things while watching, but this list is really comprehensive.
Asking this question is akin to asking how many pixies can fit in a thimble. One needs to demonstrate a pixie and heaven exist first to then have value/utility in the above question.
This video freed me ⛓💥
But what truth was gained? Truth to me is far more valuable over hope and assumptions.
The demons were angels that rebelled against God out of their own free will
This is so fantastic. Great work Dan!
Thanks much! I think you're closest in your third reason, especially in the conclusion that this is the best possible world to get to the eternal world. Only in this world, where God allows evil, do we encounter Christ on the cross: arguably the greatest manifestation of God's glory in perfect righteous justice AND perfect loving mercy. Without this world, no cross, and without the cross we never see the entirety of God's glory.
I can't believe how much made up tripe is in this single video. To be this delusional takes a special level of arrogance.
Very good content👍
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There is no scenario where a god could test Adam and Eve where, if they chose to disobey god would gain a right to punish them. God needs to do two things: Willfully make the innocent and without sin suffer and it also needs to willfully deny them the information they need to make a considered decision on the fruit. God needs to willfully entrap them. God remains responsible for all evil i.e. the only reason for the test is to make man suffer in hell for gods entertainment.
God can either make man good (by it's definition will never sin regardless of free will) or evil. If it is evil then man must prove god can make an evil man i.e. everyone is willfully created to be evil and must prove it.
Heaven. There would be no reason for god's fake setup of a test for free will if you didn't have it in Heaven. It would be a sham. How does it work in heaven? God removes all suffering hence, as no one wants anything they don't already have, they have no free will reason to sin. (Which still makes the earth test pointless and irrelevant.)
Hell. To get into heaven man must treat everyone as equal, forgive everyone, and love everyone as yourself. As those are your heaven requirements, you couldn't have a suffering free existence in heaven if you knew billions were going through an eternity of torment and suffering in hell therefore, in order for god to deliver the suffering free heaven it promised and enforce its rules, it would need to shut hell down meaning no one was going to be punished for doing evil. Again the free will test was pointless and a logical impossibility.
Sorry, your free will test, heaven and hell are all logical impossibilities.
You are fighting against windmills, since your arguments only refute your faulty view of how the Bible describes God and free will.
This makes you look stupid by the way.
I would be embarrassed if I were you.
God bless you!
Your last line applies to any classical god/s.
You might be misinterpreting what Christian doctrine actually says. The only condition to get into Heaven (or, more accurately, the New Earth) is to believe in Jesus’s sacrifice. Of course, that entails believing in God, that God sent Jesus, and that Jesus resurrected as a result of God’s intervention. Furthermore, Christians can’t seem to agree if there are any extra criteria, bonus cases, or unforgivable sins. Those who deny Jesus’s divinity are called cults, despite being more historically correct. But they all agree on the basics.
Of course, the irrelevancy of one’s actions is rather problematic, but most Christians would say that serving God makes them good people in spite of the many terrible things that one could justify on that basis.
@@j-joe-jeans So there's another kind of omnipotent god supported by a bible?
@@seanpierce9386 So, when you get to the "Pearly Gates" e.g. Hitler, as long as he believed in Jesus he has a pass whereas Gandhi wouldn't. Who would believe in that god even if there was proof it existed (which will never occur)?
As a point of interest, given this Jesus guy invention you mention actually supported the fact that the "Word" of his father in the Torah was all correct and accurate (read your bible) what you are saying is that his fathers commandments and rules to enter heaven were merely confirmed correct but not supported by Jesus. I guess the bottom line theory you are trying to sell is that Jesus was far more disobedient towards his father than Eve or Adams ever were (and look what happened to them), not to mention what happened when Lucifer rebelled against its rules.
And, by the way, given heaven (as per the Torah) was a creation of god and you are stating Jesus is openly defying his fathers rules to enter it, to which heaven do you refer in connection with Jesus? Is there one I haven't heard of?
Why don't you come back when you've figured out how it all works instead of being a Christians smart a##.
We will have free will still.
Jesus lives! ♥️ and is God 🙏🏻 Christ ✝️ and King 👑
Based on what objective evidence?
@@j-joe-jeans the Bible which is where we learn about it and logic and reason
@@JadDragon Wrong. Logic and science (methodological naturalism) are not implicit nor explicit within the bible.
@@j-joe-jeans sorry, missed a comma. Add one after "it"
@@j-joe-jeans or maybe a semicolon actually
Jesus had freewill but was sinless, so probably something like that, but when it comes to the nature of heaven, how grace and freewill work together, and the nature of the divine, I'm willing to take these things as a mystery until the appointed time to know them
If god created the world as is and yet had the option to create a world where all had free will and also chose not to sin as Jesus did, then god failed. The failure is what we see now.
@j-joe-jeans
Unless it was God's plan all along to let people freely choose to fall, for a purpose greater than we can understand.
@@bignoob1790 that would only expose that gods cruelty and irrational actions and furthers the inability for us to choose otherwise, thereby removing freewill, as you said it was his plan.
@@j-joe-jeans
Can you drive a car without completely understanding every mechanical aspect of the operations?
I can trust that God has a plan that entails ultimate Good for all involved
@@bignoob1790 For one, you nor anyone has objectively demonstrated there is a god to trust. This makes the trust unwarranted and equivalent to trusting Pixies.
I can and do drive a car, beyond it being objectively real and confirmable to any mind in our reality, I can and do understand much of its functioning and its components. Do you have a single component of a god to test and apply that knowledge to the whole?
Just so you know, the argument you made is a fallacious one called a false analogy.