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Love seeing the collabs on this corner of youtube (the "philosophy, history and religious studies angle on spirituality and religion from orthodox to heterodox and mysticism, esotericism, the occult, etc" corner of youtube lol which is quite a mouthful), every time two or more of your little niche get together on something it is a real treat.
Without getting into some rather lengthy details, the idea that Christmas is pagan comes from die-hard Protestant fundamentalists in the seventeenth, eighteenth, and nineteenth centuries. In those centuries, many Protestants regarded holidays like Christmas and Easter as “popery” and therefore sought to discredit them by linking them with ancient paganism in any way they could. The idea that Christmas might be pagan was advanced as early as 1648 in the work _Certain Queries Touching the Rise and Observation of Christmas,_ written by the Puritan Joseph Heming. Later fundamentalist writers took the idea and ran with it. Christmas was celebrated Dec. 25 prior to any pagan celebration on the same date. When we celebrate Christmas (and other holidays as well), we are definitely participating in a tradition with deep historical roots. But those traditions are firmly situated in the medieval Christian past, not an ancient pagan one. The earliest attested date for the celebration of Sol Invictus is 274 AD, but it wasn't originally celebrated on December 25th. As mentioned, there is evidence to suggest Sol Invictus was originally observed as early as August or October and was only later changed to December 25th as a possible way for the Romans to counter Christians celebrating Christmas. According to the Liber Pontificalis, Pope St. Telesphorus (125-136) instituted the tradition of celebrating midnight Mass, which means Christmas was already being celebrated. St. Theophilus (AD 115-181), bishop of Caesarea, stated, “We ought to celebrate the birthday of Our Lord on what day soever the 25th of December shall happen.” [Magdeburgenses, de orign Festorum Chirstianorum]. However, there is some conjecture of whether or not the above additions to these books/manuscripts were very early (c. 600 AD) "additions" to the texts (i.e., they were 'forged' into the texts to evidence an early date for Christmas). Even if that is indeed the case, both Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170-240) and Clement of Alexandria (AD 153-217) commented on December 25th as the celebration of the birth of Jesus. So even if Theophilus never said the above quote, not long after his dates, Hyppolytus and Clement both commented on December 25. In short, it's quite possible Christmas was already being celebrated by Christians by the early 2nd century AD which would seem to predate Sol Invictus.
So are you saying the holiday and traditions of Yule (they are pre-Christian) didn’t translate to Christmas? Yule is the winter solstice celebration, Christmas wa chosen as December 25th- sounds more like to me that the Christians were trying to convert pagans and wipe out their beliefs by slowly integrating the pagan traditions into Christendom.
Stunning video and great comment on the way that culture and ritual develops. As a protestant, it's very funny to observe fundie protestants rail against things like Christmas trees since we invented that. Culture rejecting its own inventions in favor of a mythologized origin is such a trip.
Saw the whole video. It makes since. The early to latter medieval Christian sources were incomplete and just didn't know what went on in the pre-Christian past. So, we don't fully know how much of the pre-Christian past is in our current Christmas holiday 🌲🎋⭐🌟🌠
Probably the whole evergreen tree, reindeer, jolly old man with a team of elves thing.. that probably had nothing to do with a dude in the Middle East.
@dayofthejackyl that's particularly true if you compare Jewish mythology because they don't seem to have concepts of fae or elves. I say this as a practicing Christian.
@@dayofthejackyl all of those have a lot more to do with Victorian period romantic interpretations of theoretical pre-christian practice. So christians interpreting christians speculating pagan activities.
@@TheLeftwheel do you have a source for that? Are you implying that none of this is derived from pre-Christian practices? Do you think pre-Christian Europeans had no midwinter festivities? Edit: or not even midwinter.. the winter solstice? Do you think pre-Christian Europeans did nothing to recognize the time of the winter solstice?
The churchman Martin of Braga telling off my ancestors in mid 6th century Galicia in his 'De Correctione Rusticorum' - 'on the correction of the rustic people' is very upset that the locals still observe the new year on the Calends of January (which he regards as a 'completely false' date) instead of his 'correct' Christian date of March 25th. He wasn't very happy either that people continued to worship roman deities and light candles by rocks, trees, springs and crossroads, or that they called the days of the week by the names of roman gods (he had some success stamping out the latter one as even today in Portugal - though not really in Galicia itself - the days of the week are given numerical names). I guess he wouldn't be too happy to know that the Calends of January is still regarded as New Year's day all these centuries later, or that some of us rusticorum have once again taken up the old roman religion! Thankfully we live in more inclusive times and so all of us can ensure that our Saturnalia, Christmas, Yule, Hanukah etc are, as the late roman republic poet Catullus said: 'the best of days'.
came here according to the recommendation in Let´s talk religion, but know you from your interview with Prof. Ronald Hutton. Thank you for your good work - and happy winter-celebrations! 🌲🕯🕯🕯🕯🔥🎆
🎄✨️🌟⭐️ gives greater meaning to the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution "shall not impose any religion" clearly the found8ng fathers had studied the fall of Rome whilst leaving for "better" freedoms. Great vid Dr Puca! 🙂👍🎄✨️🌟⭐️
Thanks so much for this information. Filip sent me but now I am Subscribed and rang the bell. Also, shared to Facebook, Tribel, Threads and Twitter. Good luck on the Channel.🎄⭐️🌟
Its my birthday on the Solstice. Weirdly I do not eat meat during the year. But for a few days from Winter solstice I do. It feals fine. But it does not feel good rest of the year dlDuring Solstices and equinoxes time seems to stop. The mind calms down. Amazing times of the year to be yourself.
I'm sad to say that Christmas is primarily a commercial holiday now in the USA, not a religious one. Buying and spending are our rituals and the gods we worship during this season are electronic cash registers. I celebrate the Pagan winter solstice and the return of light & longer days. Good wishes for the next year to everyone ! 🌟
Yeah I'm working on creating/recreating traditions to put focus away from the commercial aspects. I attend Christmas church services as a Christian but I do decorate for the solstice and light special candles.
"Elagabalus was initially venerated at Emesa in Syria, where the Arab Emesan dynasty acted as its priests. The name is the Latinised form of the Arabic "Ilah al-Jabal" ("إله الجبل"), the Emesene manifestation of the deity, which is Arabic for "God of the Mountain." Elagabalus was the religious "lord", or Ba'al, of Emesa. The deity successfully preserved Arab characteristics, both in his names and in his representations. The cult of the deity spread to other parts of the Roman Empire in the second century, where he would be revered as Elagabalos (Ἐλαγάβαλος Elagábalos) by the Greeks and Elagabalus by the Romans. For example, a dedication has been found as far away as Woerden, in the modern-day Netherlands." "Akitu or Akitum (Sumerian: 𒀉𒆠𒋾, romanized: A2.KI.TI, lit. 'festival' ) (Akkadian: 𒀉𒆠𒌈, romanized: A2.KI.TUM, lit. 'festival' ) is a spring festival and New Year's celebration, held on the first day of the Assyrian and Babylonian Nisan in ancient Mesopotamia and in Assyrian communities around the world, to celebrate the sowing of barley." The festival was in spring time because new year was in spring.
Y Gododdin is pronounced "Uh Godothin", the "th" as in "the", and Culhwch is pronounced "Killhooch", the "ch" as in the Scottish "loch". I hope this helps.
I believe Christmas is based on the winter solstice in pagan cultures. However, all the Christmas imagery and customs come from indigenous Siberian traditions. Look up the magic mushroom Christmas theory. From depictions of Santa Claus to the flying reindeer to the Christmas tree and stocking stuffing, they all revolve around the amanita muscaria mushroom and associated shamanic rituals.
🌟🎄🌟 Enjoyed the additional background on this Holiday. I'm in the states and definitely celebrated a materialistic agnostic Christmas growing up and with my children. Now that they've grown I'm most interested in celebrating Saturnalia and Yule! Season Greetings! ❄❄❄
The Christmas back in Ancient Rome was hella pagan and included weird sexual themes. 😖 I couldn’t even finish the full article, overall the Roman’s sure did know how to party like rock stars.
the date of the birthday of Christ is in 25 th of december not because any feast pagan, but because the calculations since the date of the anunciation of the birthday of st John baptist. In acourd with Shemarjahu Talmon of the hebraic university of Jerusalem in the paper “The Calendar Reckoning of the Sect from the Judean Desert. Aspects of the Dead Sea Scrolls”, in Scripta Hierosolymitana, vol. IV, Jerusalem 1958, pp. 162-199. the second turn of the order of the saint zaccariah abijah (Luke1.5), corresponds with the days from 23 to 30 of september, 23 of september is the traditionally the date of the anunciation of the birthday of saint john baptist comemorate in the syriac church of antioch. acording to (Luke1.26) six months later is the anunciation of Christ 25 of march, three months later 24 of june the birthday of john baptist and six months later finaly the birth of Christ in 25th of december. The dates and traditions of christianity principaly from catholic and ortodox churches came much more from the traditions of hebrew heritage than any pagan costumes.
So....? You've given us nothing new here. All of this info was taught to us in catechism! If one believes in Christ, what difference does it make WHEN one celebrates his birthday You have to pick SOME day! So we decorate trees that were originally part of a pagan ritual? So? Everything is derivative. Except Christ.
Constantine was forced to Christianity not by choice and worshiped Pagan Gods until his death. Yule is not Christmas and the Solstice is not Yule. Christmas is a lie gifted to us from the Romans…Funny how the Romans are the root of all lies…
@@dayofthejackyl Constantine is venerated by cultural aspects all the way to Ireland and Britain. Without him magick might have struggled more and took more time to make it to northern Europe. Look up the Pagan Order of Constantine.
@@shadoweagle7629 I googled pagan order of Constantine and this was the first thing that came up: “Constantine ruled for 31 years and never outlawed paganism; in the words of an early edict, he decreed that polytheists could "celebrate the rites of an outmoded illusion," so long as they did not force Christians to join them.”
Gracias for this fascinating and informative video. I really appreciate the nuance you present of the fusion and synchronicity of Pagan and early Christian traditions. So many love to characterize modern Christmas celebrations of just being 100% rebranded Paganism or Christians claiming Everything about xmas is 100% from Jesus & the church when the truth is far more intertwined, complex and interesting. ⭐
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Amazing work! Always an honor to work together.
Love seeing the collabs on this corner of youtube (the "philosophy, history and religious studies angle on spirituality and religion from orthodox to heterodox and mysticism, esotericism, the occult, etc" corner of youtube lol which is quite a mouthful), every time two or more of your little niche get together on something it is a real treat.
Same here!
Both of you do wonderful work.
Found you from "let's talk religion". U do great work too!! 🎉 Thanks!! From Memphis Tennessee USA 💕
Very interesting as always!
Happy midwinter festival of choice to one and all 😉🎄⭐️
Without getting into some rather lengthy details, the idea that Christmas is pagan comes from die-hard Protestant fundamentalists in the seventeenth, eighteenth, and nineteenth centuries. In those centuries, many Protestants regarded holidays like Christmas and Easter as “popery” and therefore sought to discredit them by linking them with ancient paganism in any way they could. The idea that Christmas might be pagan was advanced as early as 1648 in the work _Certain Queries Touching the Rise and Observation of Christmas,_ written by the Puritan Joseph Heming. Later fundamentalist writers took the idea and ran with it.
Christmas was celebrated Dec. 25 prior to any pagan celebration on the same date.
When we celebrate Christmas (and other holidays as well), we are definitely participating in a tradition with deep historical roots. But those traditions are firmly situated in the medieval Christian past, not an ancient pagan one.
The earliest attested date for the celebration of Sol Invictus is 274 AD, but it wasn't originally celebrated on December 25th. As mentioned, there is evidence to suggest Sol Invictus was originally observed as early as August or October and was only later changed to December 25th as a possible way for the Romans to counter Christians celebrating Christmas.
According to the Liber Pontificalis, Pope St. Telesphorus (125-136) instituted the tradition of celebrating midnight Mass, which means Christmas was already being celebrated. St. Theophilus (AD 115-181), bishop of Caesarea, stated, “We ought to celebrate the birthday of Our Lord on what day soever the 25th of December shall happen.” [Magdeburgenses, de orign Festorum Chirstianorum].
However, there is some conjecture of whether or not the above additions to these books/manuscripts were very early (c. 600 AD) "additions" to the texts (i.e., they were 'forged' into the texts to evidence an early date for Christmas).
Even if that is indeed the case, both Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170-240) and Clement of Alexandria (AD 153-217) commented on December 25th as the celebration of the birth of Jesus. So even if Theophilus never said the above quote, not long after his dates, Hyppolytus and Clement both commented on December 25.
In short, it's quite possible Christmas was already being celebrated by Christians by the early 2nd century AD which would seem to predate Sol Invictus.
So are you saying the holiday and traditions of Yule (they are pre-Christian) didn’t translate to Christmas? Yule is the winter solstice celebration, Christmas wa chosen as December 25th- sounds more like to me that the Christians were trying to convert pagans and wipe out their beliefs by slowly integrating the pagan traditions into Christendom.
Stunning video and great comment on the way that culture and ritual develops. As a protestant, it's very funny to observe fundie protestants rail against things like Christmas trees since we invented that. Culture rejecting its own inventions in favor of a mythologized origin is such a trip.
I was sent by the most honourable Filip from Let's talk religion. Nice video! 🌲
Informative as always.🎄⭐🌟🌠
Happy Mid-winter Festival, Doctor! 🎄
Happiest of holidays, whatever they may be.🌲🌟🎅🎶
Saw the whole video. It makes since. The early to latter medieval Christian sources were incomplete and just didn't know what went on in the pre-Christian past. So, we don't fully know how much of the pre-Christian past is in our current Christmas holiday 🌲🎋⭐🌟🌠
*sense
Probably the whole evergreen tree, reindeer, jolly old man with a team of elves thing.. that probably had nothing to do with a dude in the Middle East.
@dayofthejackyl that's particularly true if you compare Jewish mythology because they don't seem to have concepts of fae or elves. I say this as a practicing Christian.
@@dayofthejackyl all of those have a lot more to do with Victorian period romantic interpretations of theoretical pre-christian practice. So christians interpreting christians speculating pagan activities.
@@TheLeftwheel do you have a source for that? Are you implying that none of this is derived from pre-Christian practices? Do you think pre-Christian Europeans had no midwinter festivities?
Edit: or not even midwinter.. the winter solstice? Do you think pre-Christian Europeans did nothing to recognize the time of the winter solstice?
Thx Doc. Can't believe I never noted the similarity of Yule and Jolly before. Always learning something from you.🎆
The churchman Martin of Braga telling off my ancestors in mid 6th century Galicia in his 'De Correctione Rusticorum' - 'on the correction of the rustic people' is very upset that the locals still observe the new year on the Calends of January (which he regards as a 'completely false' date) instead of his 'correct' Christian date of March 25th. He wasn't very happy either that people continued to worship roman deities and light candles by rocks, trees, springs and crossroads, or that they called the days of the week by the names of roman gods (he had some success stamping out the latter one as even today in Portugal - though not really in Galicia itself - the days of the week are given numerical names). I guess he wouldn't be too happy to know that the Calends of January is still regarded as New Year's day all these centuries later, or that some of us rusticorum have once again taken up the old roman religion! Thankfully we live in more inclusive times and so all of us can ensure that our Saturnalia, Christmas, Yule, Hanukah etc are, as the late roman republic poet Catullus said: 'the best of days'.
Filip sent me. Thank you.
Same
Blessed Yule 🎄
came here according to the recommendation in Let´s talk religion, but know you from your interview with Prof. Ronald Hutton. Thank you for your good work - and happy winter-celebrations! 🌲🕯🕯🕯🕯🔥🎆
Thank you for keeping us informed!🎄🔮🎄✨
Happy Mid - winter festival. 🎄⭐️
🎄✨️ Happy Yule !🎉🇨🇦
🌟 I came from Let's Talk Religion. Great video.
Happy and joyful Midwinter! Keep the fire up! 🔥🎄
🎄⭐️ loved the video ⭐️🎄
Thank you very much. This is responsible research, very well done. Needless to say that I like your channel.
⭐️
Happy Krampus! I love you all! 🤘👹🎄❄️🖤
🎄✨️🌟⭐️ gives greater meaning to the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution "shall not impose any religion" clearly the found8ng fathers had studied the fall of Rome whilst leaving for "better" freedoms. Great vid Dr Puca! 🙂👍🎄✨️🌟⭐️
Thanks so much for this information. Filip sent me but now I am Subscribed and rang the bell. Also, shared to Facebook, Tribel, Threads and Twitter. Good luck on the Channel.🎄⭐️🌟
Awesome! Thank you!
🌲🍒 happy midwinter!
Its my birthday on the Solstice. Weirdly I do not eat meat during the year. But for a few days from Winter solstice I do. It feals fine. But it does not feel good rest of the year dlDuring Solstices and equinoxes time seems to stop. The mind calms down. Amazing times of the year to be yourself.
⭐️🎄⭐️ Thank you for sharing this fascinating history!
🎄 Happy what ever you celebrate
I'm sad to say that Christmas is primarily a commercial holiday now in the USA, not a religious one. Buying and spending are our rituals and the gods we worship during this season are electronic cash registers. I celebrate the Pagan winter solstice and the return of light & longer days. Good wishes for the next year to everyone ! 🌟
Yeah I'm working on creating/recreating traditions to put focus away from the commercial aspects. I attend Christmas church services as a Christian but I do decorate for the solstice and light special candles.
🌲 and ⭐. Feliz Navidad, Srita Puca!
🎄⭐
Thank you as always for your work and educating us! ⭐I wish I could take a theology course from you!
Whether it is or not, we do not have to concern ourselves with culture via antiquity. New or Old, Do as you Will.
Thanks . Happy Christmas 🎄
⭐️🌟⭐️
Thanks!
🌟
🌟 for the birth of Horus son of Aset. Devotee of Sekhmet and I love you work!
⭐
😊🌲
🎄🌲🎄🌲🌟⭐️💫
💫
🎄🌟 Be blessed!
🎄
🌟🌟🌟 love your work
Thank you so much!
🎄🎄🎄🎄🎄
Great show Thanks for the info 🌲
🍀⭐🌟
🎄⭐️
A curated transcript of this video is at www.innersymposium.study/?p=5346 and the quiz at www.innersymposium.study/?page_id=4830. 🌠🌟⭐🎄🌴🌳🌲
🌲
🌴🌟🌴
Damn, those sound effects...you know what you did
🌲⭐️
🌟🎄 great video
"Elagabalus was initially venerated at Emesa in Syria, where the Arab Emesan dynasty acted as its priests. The name is the Latinised form of the Arabic "Ilah al-Jabal" ("إله الجبل"), the Emesene manifestation of the deity, which is Arabic for "God of the Mountain." Elagabalus was the religious "lord", or Ba'al, of Emesa. The deity successfully preserved Arab characteristics, both in his names and in his representations.
The cult of the deity spread to other parts of the Roman Empire in the second century, where he would be revered as Elagabalos (Ἐλαγάβαλος Elagábalos) by the Greeks and Elagabalus by the Romans. For example, a dedication has been found as far away as Woerden, in the modern-day Netherlands."
"Akitu or Akitum (Sumerian: 𒀉𒆠𒋾, romanized: A2.KI.TI, lit. 'festival' ) (Akkadian: 𒀉𒆠𒌈, romanized: A2.KI.TUM, lit. 'festival' ) is a spring festival and New Year's celebration, held on the first day of the Assyrian and Babylonian Nisan in ancient Mesopotamia and in Assyrian communities around the world, to celebrate the sowing of barley."
The festival was in spring time because new year was in spring.
🎄 ⭐ 👍 💜
✨✨🌟✨✨
You are awesome. 🌟
🎄 I've heard what seem like good arguments for Jesus being born in the autumn during the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles, 15 Tishri.
Y Gododdin is pronounced "Uh Godothin", the "th" as in "the", and Culhwch is pronounced "Killhooch", the "ch" as in the Scottish "loch". I hope this helps.
ı godoðin. kylhux
❤
🎄🌲⭐🌟
I believe Christmas is based on the winter solstice in pagan cultures. However, all the Christmas imagery and customs come from indigenous Siberian traditions. Look up the magic mushroom Christmas theory. From depictions of Santa Claus to the flying reindeer to the Christmas tree and stocking stuffing, they all revolve around the amanita muscaria mushroom and associated shamanic rituals.
🌲 ⭐️
Love your accent Angela...
🌟🎄🌟 Enjoyed the additional background on this Holiday. I'm in the states and definitely celebrated a materialistic agnostic Christmas growing up and with my children. Now that they've grown I'm most interested in celebrating Saturnalia and Yule! Season Greetings! ❄❄❄
🌲 ⭐
Philip sent me here.
🧙🧙🧙
🌟🌲🍕
Damn right.
🌲❄️☃️🌟⭐
⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ ⭐⭐⭐
Adoro i tuoi contenuti, grazie mille
❄️🌟✨️🎄✨️🌟❄️
★☆★
🌲🌲😃 Yes, madam! Amazing video! Thank you for sharing such interesting historic facts! I wish you a blessed winter season! 😃🌲🌲
yeppers, golly, yep.
⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
🌲⭐ Thank you so much. Can you please slow down your presentation a little bit?
Yes ma’am, thank you!
Happy Hannukka!
93 93/93 all!
Herod died in 4 BC 🌳
The Christmas back in Ancient Rome was hella pagan and included weird sexual themes. 😖 I couldn’t even finish the full article, overall the Roman’s sure did know how to party like rock stars.
Yule, I think it comes from Yalda. Which was celebrated by mithraïsme.
the date of the birthday of Christ is in 25 th of december not because any feast pagan, but because the calculations since the date of the anunciation of the birthday of st John baptist. In acourd with Shemarjahu Talmon of the hebraic university of Jerusalem in the paper “The Calendar Reckoning of the Sect from the Judean Desert. Aspects of the Dead Sea Scrolls”, in Scripta Hierosolymitana, vol. IV, Jerusalem 1958, pp. 162-199. the second turn of the order of the saint zaccariah abijah (Luke1.5), corresponds with the days from 23 to 30 of september, 23 of september is the traditionally the date of the anunciation of the birthday of saint john baptist comemorate in the syriac church of antioch. acording to (Luke1.26) six months later is the anunciation of Christ 25 of march, three months later 24 of june the birthday of john baptist and six months later finaly the birth of Christ in 25th of december. The dates and traditions of christianity principaly from catholic and ortodox churches came much more from the traditions of hebrew heritage than any pagan costumes.
🪐
Answer by most historians: No. Christmas isn't pagan.
So....? You've given us nothing new here. All of this info was taught to us in catechism! If one believes in Christ, what difference does it make WHEN one celebrates his birthday You have to pick SOME day! So we decorate trees that were originally part of a pagan ritual? So? Everything is derivative. Except Christ.
So you're telling me it's one big pope cope ⭐
Constantine was forced to Christianity not by choice and worshiped Pagan Gods until his death. Yule is not Christmas and the Solstice is not Yule. Christmas is a lie gifted to us from the Romans…Funny how the Romans are the root of all lies…
I thought Constantine willfully converted?
@@dayofthejackyl Constantine is venerated by cultural aspects all the way to Ireland and Britain. Without him magick might have struggled more and took more time to make it to northern Europe. Look up the Pagan Order of Constantine.
@@shadoweagle7629 I googled pagan order of Constantine and this was the first thing that came up: “Constantine ruled for 31 years and never outlawed paganism; in the words of an early edict, he decreed that polytheists could "celebrate the rites of an outmoded illusion," so long as they did not force Christians to join them.”
@@dayofthejackyl❤
The ancient Irish had sun worship since 3000 BCE and maybe Porto Indo roots. stop lumping all these cultures together….
What are your academic sources for stating this?
⭐️
Gracias for this fascinating and informative video. I really appreciate the nuance you present of the fusion and synchronicity of Pagan and early Christian traditions. So many love to characterize modern Christmas celebrations of just being 100% rebranded Paganism or Christians claiming Everything about xmas is 100% from Jesus & the church when the truth is far more intertwined, complex and interesting. ⭐
🌲🌟
🎄
🎄🎄🎄
🎄⭐️