@@mrnozchalazt7199 I’m under the impression that they’re being cautious because it wouldn’t take much for him to suddenly jump the tier list. Especially at lower levels. It’s more so at higher levels of play where he needs help and that takes a more nuanced approach to buff him.
She's a good Kameo certainly. But I think she's actually better with Scorpion than with Sub. Sub-Zero struggles to get his B2 after her overhead, so he has to do F12.
@@Hellonleash Once you factor in the online delay, that becomes too unreliable to be viable unfortunately. The combo is easy, but B2's timing after Sonya isn't.
They should've balanced all characters. Not just nerf and buff what was needed. All cameos need improvements. Only useful ones are those that are compatible for certain characters
@@christianhenry4173 I think that is what they're trying to do over time. The game is overall quite balanced, but there are characters that are unnecessarily restricted. This patch was an attempt to alleviate some of that.
Thank you for all your break downs brother. I’m glad to hear sub at least got some steps in the right direction. At least have his ex ice ball comboable FFS! 😆 but yeah, NRS LISTEN UP! Make sub viable! If scorpion can combo into spear, sub should be able to combo into ice ball. Period.
Make 21 restand air opponent's Make deadly vapor a low Add ice shower Make it a faster tracking overhead projectile that let's him combo meterless. Or a directable one like shangs ground fire.
I'm not in favor of adding more 50/50s to the game at all. All Sub really needs are the buffs I'm suggesting here - and perhaps some gap closures, better damage scaling and less Klone recovery. We don't need him to be scrubby.
@mrAPchem I don't really need deadly vapor to be a low it hitting low, but being a mid just bothers me. As for ice shower I think he does need that. We haven't seen it since 95 and I don't think nrs is gonna change iceball
@@damionbaxter4912 Scorpion got a new string, which in reality, was a different ender to a preexisting string. And Quan got a portal that is merely a different color than his other portals. It's more likely that NRS would take a move that is already in the game and give it new utility rather than animating an entirely new move.
Yeah, no. His buffs make him a bit better by a margin. Ending the 1 2 3 string does absolutely nothing as opposed to going into a kameo or ice cloning. As for 3 2 recovery, the only thing that MIGHT come out of it is that it helps mix ups. You cant really use f1 2 3 for a good kameo confirm without mileena khame or a niche kameo that wont help him in other areas except those confirms.
So, having an extra safe option for opponents to consider after F12 is nothing to you?? Giving the character a comboing 50/50 situation from his only mid string with multiple Kameos, including his very best one, Khameleon is nothing to you??? Perhaps you should actually play the character with these new buffs first before rushing to judgement. Also, Sub-Zero doesn't have a 3-2 string.
She definitely gives him the best shot a winning a tournament, but he is far from a trash character without her. Even the worst characters in this game are decent characters overall.
Not being able to combo off of footsie strings without a resource isn’t a problem. Raiden can’t do it either and I’m sure there are more examples. Idk if this is what you meant, but normal deadly vapors giving you enough hit advantage to combo into another jab string would be cool and make sense, but I don’t think it should combo into back 2. Ice ball isn’t supposed to be a combo tool, especially because of the other special moves he has. Comparing it to previous ice balls is just flawed thinking. It’s simply a projectile that can win trades against other projectiles and combo off of one that hits. Maybe it could still use a slight buff, but it does NOT need to be able to combo off of strings. I’m not saying Sub zero is one of the best characters in the game by any means and I agree he could use love with some more buffs, but I don’t think you really understand or appreciate the tools that sub zero has that no other characters have.
The tools he has leaves you no way to open up your opponent. A skilled player can easily punish all his special moves if ready. Some characters can punish him from full screen away on reaction. He needs a lot of help.
@@jaxfan don’t play a patient, defensive character if that’s not how you want to play. Yeah he needs buffs but this mindset is ignorant to what kind of character he is. If you want to be on the offensive putting pressure on your opponent and mixing them, then play a different character.
@@BuddyChy Lol you can't win trades with ice ball its too slow,ex is also shit.He needs adjustments to be better character,right now dosent look good for him,ofc am not saying make him top tier,but at least allow me to have good tools and not be 100 percent dependable on cameos.
I fully understand and appreciate what Sub-Zero has - I play him. What's more is that I have always played him in literally every MK game, including the very first MK1. I readily acknowledged what does work well with him, but he has two moves that are all but useless, including Ice Ball. You say that it isn't supposed to be a combo tool; this would be fine if it had clear utility as something else. But it doesn't - it doesn't help control the neutral because most of the time the player gets hit while trying to do it. Because it's so slow, it does not win trades against other projectiles at all; not even the EX-version, which is supposed to eat other projectiles. If it were remade to behave like Reptile's Slow Forceball, then that would make sense - but that's not what we see in the game. It has no other role in this game in its current form because it occupies the exact same niche that prior Iceballs did but doesn't have the favorable frame data that the prior ones did. Comparing it to other Ice Balls is logical and appropriate because it's a move that has not only returned to MK1 without being distinct from prior versions, but because the game itself is very clearly modeled after MK9 but with a twist. Also, when a character needs meter or Kameo to combo from their best strings - and then gets mediocre damage - it is problematic because it restricts what the character can do. If the character was an expert at controlling space like Tanya or Reiko, then this isn't as much of an issue. But when the character has jumpable projectiles, plus an Ice Clone that has a lengthy cool down and gets roughly 17% from an AA when others get a minimum of 25%, having your combo damage governed by the resources that you have on hand is highly problematic, which is why the character barely sees any kind of tournament action unless paired with Khameleon. Raiden, by contrast, can either do F34 or 34 and combo people with no resource. But in addition to that, he has extremely quick movement, plus frames, multiple safe mid strings, including a staggerable low string that low-profiles and is safe, and has a safe overhead that only comes out on hit as a conditioning tool. And then he has both a teleport and a fantastic projectile that can either be shot quickly or be charged and hit 6 times. Not to mention he has a 4-hit string that can be staggered at any hit and is not only safe but leads to terrific damage also. For these reasons, Raiden is still nothing less than top-tier, tournament viable character who can win with multiple Kameos; Sub-Zero isn't in that same position. One more thing, when did I state that Deadly Vapors should combo into B2??? I only want it to combo into his footsie strings - the EX Deadly Vapors already combos into B2. I'll say this - if you don't play Sub-Zero, do not come up in here telling people that have played Sub-Zero for literal decades about what he has and doesn't have as if we're not aware. We play a character with hordes of gaps in his primary strings, who can get blown up for performing any of his special moves, including the one that is supposed to control space mid-screen and had middling damage without the ability to hit the opponent more times than the opponent to make up for it. Yet all I'm asking for is a useful Deadly Vapors and a faster Ice Ball.
@@mrAPchem I agree 100 percent.All you said is on point.Peopple cam here and bash on sub zero just cuz they are scrubs,who cant react to his fake 50/50 game.
Even Shujinko can combo into ice ball 💀💀💀
Yeah, it's a damn shame that MK's first ice character can't freeze from a string, but the kameos can.
@@mrAPchem Sub zero is too dependant on a kameo fighter,thats the issue.
Dude, do not compare characters to shujinko a KAMEO lmao
You would think NRS hates Sub-Zero the way they be doing him 😂
@@mrnozchalazt7199 I’m under the impression that they’re being cautious because it wouldn’t take much for him to suddenly jump the tier list. Especially at lower levels. It’s more so at higher levels of play where he needs help and that takes a more nuanced approach to buff him.
sonya might be his best kameo currently, the overhead buff was just too insane
She's a good Kameo certainly. But I think she's actually better with Scorpion than with Sub. Sub-Zero struggles to get his B2 after her overhead, so he has to do F12.
@@mrAPchem b2 has a pretty tricky timing but it’s easy. Overhead > b2 > j12 > f12 > bf3 is a pretty easy 28 or something %
@@Hellonleash Once you factor in the online delay, that becomes too unreliable to be viable unfortunately. The combo is easy, but B2's timing after Sonya isn't.
I think he's better with Mavado.
@@DonYoGi8331 I actually need to lab that team again now that F123 is safe. It could be good now.
Very informative video man. NRS should definitely make his iceball faster.
Thank you for the kind words!
Just got done watching a couple of your vids. Subscribed man!
Should catch a match sometime.
I appreciate the subscribe! I'm The5thDerivative on PC and PS5, so add me and we'll set something up!
Damn this vid made me realize EVEN MORE that nrs cooked Sub-Zero this game💀🥶❄️ : I agree w/ ALL the buffs you mentioned bro!💯‼️
Yeah, they restricted him in order to stop people from complaining about him.
A step in the right direction, but we need more, also others need more.
True indeed.
They should've balanced all characters. Not just nerf and buff what was needed. All cameos need improvements. Only useful ones are those that are compatible for certain characters
@@christianhenry4173 I think that is what they're trying to do over time. The game is overall quite balanced, but there are characters that are unnecessarily restricted. This patch was an attempt to alleviate some of that.
Thank you for all your break downs brother. I’m glad to hear sub at least got some steps in the right direction. At least have his ex ice ball comboable FFS! 😆 but yeah, NRS LISTEN UP! Make sub viable! If scorpion can combo into spear, sub should be able to combo into ice ball. Period.
I cannot agree more. Scorpion can do nearly any string he has into Spear because that move is less than 20 frames of startup.
When he enhances ice punch it should leave an ice clone that would be interesting
I like that idea a lot actually!!
Where’d you get that Sub Zero costume?
PC mod.
This is indeed a PC mod from Nexus Mods.
Are these skins a mod? I havent checked the store in a while
These are definitely mods. These are exclusive to PC, but you can get them on Nexus Mods.
They should have made his ice ball combo also at least make the enhanced version combo
That would at least give the EX Ice Ball some kind of utility!!
@@mrAPchem just like how mk11 was something like that at least
@@Cor_Gaming Or like in MK9 - the game that most directly inspires MK1.
@@mrAPchem i agree 100% bro
us real subzero mains appreciate you brody✊🏽 salute
Thank you so much!!! I appreciate you all as well.
is that a costume in the shop or is it a mod ?
This is a mod here. From Nexus Mods.
is there any risk by using this mods costumes in online ?
server sided/client sided, you will be fine 😊
I've been using them for months across all modes. They even show up in Invasions!
Make 21 restand air opponent's
Make deadly vapor a low
Add ice shower Make it a faster tracking overhead projectile that let's him combo meterless. Or a directable one like shangs ground fire.
I'm not in favor of adding more 50/50s to the game at all. All Sub really needs are the buffs I'm suggesting here - and perhaps some gap closures, better damage scaling and less Klone recovery.
We don't need him to be scrubby.
@mrAPchem I don't really need deadly vapor to be a low it hitting low, but being a mid just bothers me. As for ice shower I think he does need that. We haven't seen it since 95 and I don't think nrs is gonna change iceball
@@damionbaxter4912 You think it's more likely that NRS will add an entirely new special move rather than change one that already in the game?
@@mrAPchem yes because they did it with scorpion and quan chi.
@@damionbaxter4912 Scorpion got a new string, which in reality, was a different ender to a preexisting string. And Quan got a portal that is merely a different color than his other portals.
It's more likely that NRS would take a move that is already in the game and give it new utility rather than animating an entirely new move.
Buff Nitara
She did get buffed! Her buff seems to be more impactful for her than Sub's is for him.
aren't the mods bannable now?
I believe the WB agreement says they are. But WB can kiss my ass - I will mod my game as I please.
@@mrAPchem😂😂😂
Yeah, no. His buffs make him a bit better by a margin. Ending the 1 2 3 string does absolutely nothing as opposed to going into a kameo or ice cloning. As for 3 2 recovery, the only thing that MIGHT come out of it is that it helps mix ups. You cant really use f1 2 3 for a good kameo confirm without mileena khame or a niche kameo that wont help him in other areas except those confirms.
So, having an extra safe option for opponents to consider after F12 is nothing to you??
Giving the character a comboing 50/50 situation from his only mid string with multiple Kameos, including his very best one, Khameleon is nothing to you???
Perhaps you should actually play the character with these new buffs first before rushing to judgement.
Also, Sub-Zero doesn't have a 3-2 string.
@@mrAPchem my bad, 2 1
Nice but Sub still trash without khameleon
She definitely gives him the best shot a winning a tournament, but he is far from a trash character without her.
Even the worst characters in this game are decent characters overall.
Not being able to combo off of footsie strings without a resource isn’t a problem. Raiden can’t do it either and I’m sure there are more examples.
Idk if this is what you meant, but normal deadly vapors giving you enough hit advantage to combo into another jab string would be cool and make sense, but I don’t think it should combo into back 2.
Ice ball isn’t supposed to be a combo tool, especially because of the other special moves he has. Comparing it to previous ice balls is just flawed thinking. It’s simply a projectile that can win trades against other projectiles and combo off of one that hits. Maybe it could still use a slight buff, but it does NOT need to be able to combo off of strings.
I’m not saying Sub zero is one of the best characters in the game by any means and I agree he could use love with some more buffs, but I don’t think you really understand or appreciate the tools that sub zero has that no other characters have.
The tools he has leaves you no way to open up your opponent. A skilled player can easily punish all his special moves if ready. Some characters can punish him from full screen away on reaction. He needs a lot of help.
@@jaxfan don’t play a patient, defensive character if that’s not how you want to play. Yeah he needs buffs but this mindset is ignorant to what kind of character he is. If you want to be on the offensive putting pressure on your opponent and mixing them, then play a different character.
@@BuddyChy Lol you can't win trades with ice ball its too slow,ex is also shit.He needs adjustments to be better character,right now dosent look good for him,ofc am not saying make him top tier,but at least allow me to have good tools and not be 100 percent dependable on cameos.
I fully understand and appreciate what Sub-Zero has - I play him. What's more is that I have always played him in literally every MK game, including the very first MK1.
I readily acknowledged what does work well with him, but he has two moves that are all but useless, including Ice Ball.
You say that it isn't supposed to be a combo tool; this would be fine if it had clear utility as something else. But it doesn't - it doesn't help control the neutral because most of the time the player gets hit while trying to do it. Because it's so slow, it does not win trades against other projectiles at all; not even the EX-version, which is supposed to eat other projectiles. If it were remade to behave like Reptile's Slow Forceball, then that would make sense - but that's not what we see in the game. It has no other role in this game in its current form because it occupies the exact same niche that prior Iceballs did but doesn't have the favorable frame data that the prior ones did.
Comparing it to other Ice Balls is logical and appropriate because it's a move that has not only returned to MK1 without being distinct from prior versions, but because the game itself is very clearly modeled after MK9 but with a twist.
Also, when a character needs meter or Kameo to combo from their best strings - and then gets mediocre damage - it is problematic because it restricts what the character can do. If the character was an expert at controlling space like Tanya or Reiko, then this isn't as much of an issue. But when the character has jumpable projectiles, plus an Ice Clone that has a lengthy cool down and gets roughly 17% from an AA when others get a minimum of 25%, having your combo damage governed by the resources that you have on hand is highly problematic, which is why the character barely sees any kind of tournament action unless paired with Khameleon.
Raiden, by contrast, can either do F34 or 34 and combo people with no resource. But in addition to that, he has extremely quick movement, plus frames, multiple safe mid strings, including a staggerable low string that low-profiles and is safe, and has a safe overhead that only comes out on hit as a conditioning tool. And then he has both a teleport and a fantastic projectile that can either be shot quickly or be charged and hit 6 times. Not to mention he has a 4-hit string that can be staggered at any hit and is not only safe but leads to terrific damage also. For these reasons, Raiden is still nothing less than top-tier, tournament viable character who can win with multiple Kameos; Sub-Zero isn't in that same position.
One more thing, when did I state that Deadly Vapors should combo into B2??? I only want it to combo into his footsie strings - the EX Deadly Vapors already combos into B2.
I'll say this - if you don't play Sub-Zero, do not come up in here telling people that have played Sub-Zero for literal decades about what he has and doesn't have as if we're not aware. We play a character with hordes of gaps in his primary strings, who can get blown up for performing any of his special moves, including the one that is supposed to control space mid-screen and had middling damage without the ability to hit the opponent more times than the opponent to make up for it.
Yet all I'm asking for is a useful Deadly Vapors and a faster Ice Ball.
@@mrAPchem I agree 100 percent.All you said is on point.Peopple cam here and bash on sub zero just cuz they are scrubs,who cant react to his fake 50/50 game.