Doing precisely this myself as well - I see my wrist clearly driving the R2L with that “pinned elbow” - agreed great observation and video by Nadim (as well as reproducing the inefficient motion).
Nadim: You are simply one of the best teaching pros on RUclips. Your instruction is understandable, and yet detailed enough to make a difference and to execute (your videos are not bad too:), even for an intermediate player. I like sharing some of your instruction with the high school players I coach. Thank you and keep it coming!! Mitch Long
İ like that you follow thru with your right leg(foot) into the court which is better for older players as they protect their left leg(foot) from excessive stress on landing, just as it was before high-fitness forever young players👏
Brilliant explanation. I'm plagued by the low elbow issue you describe. I really like this subtle yet crucial explanation about the over active wrist. Nice one Nadim! Can't wait to try this out on the court. Thanks so much.
This is my exact issue. I bend at the elbow and go over my head. However when I video it I am doing this with the wrist mostly. No matter how many times I try when a ball is in the air I use the wrist. Thanks for the explanation.
Novice to tennis, but your explanation and easy ways to remember steps is top-notch. I still have a lot to work on and practice but I am hitting the ball in the sweet spot and don't need to chuck as much energy to get the ball traveling quick
Thank you Nadim. This was so helpful to me, not only for the elbow and wrist, but also how you turn the tip of the racquet out on your take back - makes me think of a unit turn concept, where I was going straight down.
Nadim just found you looking to improve my serve and your spot on , easy to understand. I love the slow motion with a detailed commentaries. Your the best, thank you for putting this instructions together.
Great nuanced tip Nadim, thanks! Will pay more attention to this detail and check it out it. As I'm growing older, focusing on getting my game more effortless to prevent injury
😎GREAT Video. I especially l❤️ve the way you broke down the steps in s l o w motion!! I didn't realize how tight I was and how I wasn't properly using the power loop and relaxed wrist!! Awesome video. So nice to see you on court!! Thanks Nadim👍
Thanks, Cheri! I hope you are doing well these days. I appreciate you tuning in and finding this video helpful. Hopefully see you and my main man :) again, sooner rather than later!
This is exactly what I do. Glad to see a video that tells me I am not the only one. The question is, how do I keep from engaging the wrist? Also does it matter if the strings point down on the take back or more vertical towards the back fence?
Concise, clear, practical. Nadim at his best. Btw, Thiem used to have a serve 'back swing', racket path up to the trophy position so extreme that his racket never pointed towards the right side during its path up. Rather it just went straight up along a vertical plain perpendicular to the base line. There are a couple of risks in such an extreme motion: a) your elbow angle in the trophy pose tends to stay too open (over 90 degrees), b) (and somewhat related) your racket face tend to open up in the trophy position and c) your swing back loop tends to stay also too much off the court as your upper body stays so long and strongly rotated off the court during the serve motion. Thiem had no problems as regards the points a & b but possibly the fact c has made him to mitigate his back swing path towards less extreme in which the racket tip points more toward right on its horizontal phase. Thiem's body is still quite strongly angled off the court in the contact and that's Even desirable If it is not too extreme (say over 70 degrees) on which case your serve power will start to suffer and slice serve become too difficult. Long story even longer: Roger has even longer and more classical serve racket take up
(continues) ...but he still manages to incorporate the right pointing racket position to his elegant, unmatched motion even if it takes the long and winding route to get there (just on time). In the first phase Roger's racket points toward left back corner in a downwards orientation and then swiftly and smoothly works its way to right thus pointing to the right back corner in its horizontal position and immdiately next toward right (fence or over it) as his elbow keeps bending in (until it reaches ~87-85 degrees in the trophy position). It is one flawless, impeccable, beautiful serve motion: natural, simple, smooth, fluid - and easy looking. But not easy at all to copy and master (as I have tried and keep on training!). All in all Roger ane Domi seem to go opposite ways in their respective serve evolutions. While Thiem has shortened his back swing, apparently to get a more court oriented back loop and easier rotation in his slice serve, Roger used to have a more compact racket take up (resemblng the current Thiem) in his teens and twenties gradually developing and honing it toward its present-day pure work of art!
Thank you very much for your concise and relevant information. Your entire serve motion except for the high ball toss reminds of Rod Laver and before him in the 1920’s Bill Tilden. Don
that's exactly my problem, my wrist is to stiff and want to use too much power of wrist, then it causes the body stiffness , thank you for explain it .
Welcome back Nadim! Dang, you nailed this subtle but crucial biomechanical glitch. Getting my left shoulder high and my right shoulder and elbow "low" has helped my serve, but it's only taken me to the mid 3.5 level. And I've noticed shoulder (deltoid) pain from over-exertion because as you point out, it's not efficient. I'm working too hard to get power. Every now and then I hit an effortless 4.0 serve and wonder what I just did differently. I'm sure I'm making this wrist mistake. Milos has an exaggerated wrist bend and I always wondered why. Now I know.
Amazing coach.. I started playing barely 3 years ago. Develop a serve pretty consistent but I can feel I am muscling it. Coach you are the best . Actually I first watch this 2 years ago but totally didn't get it I was a total begginer back then 😁😁
Very helpful tip here. I have been getting better shoulder turn but am sure that I am getting my wrist involved which is hurting my flow and robbing me of some power. To be sure my improved toss and turn are really big improvements but if I can work this in also I will be very pleased. Thanks again Nadim for all your fine work!
Picking this coach's serve technique: The pull-down of his tossing arm (left arm) was delayed during serve, which hindered his body rotation and his serve speed.
Grreat demonstration of the problem with regard to the low elbow, would be better to show how to fix the problem, ie some drills that help eliminate the low elbow problem.
Interesting. The serve is by far my best stroke. I cannot tell until I play, which of the two I am doing, but the BIG question is, do we need a clinic to improve/implement this tip? Doing it on our own seems risky to say the least, specially since the serve is my best weapon! But a very interesting video...
I think I was bringing it up more with my wrist and then I have to fight to get that racquet on edge before the pronation. Most times I do and the serve is hard but then I know when I opened the racquet face and the serve is not nearly as hard. However, when you bring it up with the elbow you are really bringing it up with shoulder rotation. I remembered doing rotator cuff exercises at PT years ago, and that movement was one of them but with a light weight. So my question is how much can your weak rotator cuff muscles take? I have a similar question with the ATP forehand. My wrist lays back much farther than I can do statically and what does that do long term and to young kids? I will try today to bring it up without the wrist and I am sure my fight to get racquet on edge will be cured. Just hope my old rotator cuff muscles can handle the change.
Thank you, Chris. Check out these videos. Type into the RUclips search bar: “Tennis Serve Tip: Lead with the elbow and add 5-10 mph to your serve”, “Serve Tip: Role of the elbow”, “”more Serve power Tip: fix your elbow position”. Let me know if any of these help. Best wishes.
Thank you for the great video! I'm a beginer so want to know shuld I deliberately try to make my elbow upward like in this vedio? or does it has more to do with racket drop when you turn your body shoulder to shoulder? Will appreciate your advice :)
Hello Willene. Thank you for tuning in. The ball doesn’t have to be very high at all. It can work but is more often less likely to help players with their serves. Many players think it has to be higher “in order to have enough time to hit it” but it’s actually not true. Writing about it here would take a long time but why don’t you check out this video here. Florian describes how you can make either work Hope it helps and thank for your comment: ruclips.net/video/ac7BTGvT84M/видео.html
This lesson seems to contradict "getting into proper trophy position" taught by many on YT. In fact, in your side-by-side you did not even mention it. 🤔
Not really; the trophy position is a position which you transit through; it's not static. The thing that he doesn't emphasize quite enough, though he does mention it, is the full loop that the racquet head travels on the way to contact. The racquet drop and path to to contact is not a vertical line, but a loop. By let the elbow rise and separate from the body, this loop is achieved more easily, and it compresses the shoulder much less than the 'wrong' way that he demonstrates. This is a super good presentation; the only thing I would add (and its a later issue), is the path that the elbow travels after the drop, to contact, and during follow-through (which is actually pretty complex).
@@LaBambaCL yes, but very few stop their motion at that moment; there is, with some players, a modest slowing of the motion, but a hitch is not good. One of the problems we have as students of the game is careful differentiation between stop-motion photos and smooth video.
@@Osnosis well, the tip up seems to be some young players. something i noticed watching highlights of matches. is it a different way to serve, or a less optimal way? in any case, i'll try nadim's tip, and your comments. it's not entirely new to me, but i forgot! ;)
You and your associates with OTI are so caught up in the upper body; you fail to recognize the potential for the lower body (if used effectively) to provide the bulk of the power in a tennis serve. Physics can show you the way.
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Nadim you are the only coach on the net who could explain the low elbow and give the key. You should win coach of the year!! Thanks
I have watched so many videos on the serve and no one has explained this ever. Thank you so much for helping me realise my mistake
Spot on, i was doing that for a long time. This is a very nuanced observation not a lot of coaches point at.
Doing precisely this myself as well - I see my wrist clearly driving the R2L with that “pinned elbow” - agreed great observation and video by Nadim (as well as reproducing the inefficient motion).
I have coached for more than 20 years. This. Is fantastic concise and clear instruction. Well done! 👍
Nadim - great instruction. Thank you.
Fantastic video. Much needed detail from one of the best online coaches.
Nadim: You are simply one of the best teaching pros on RUclips. Your instruction is understandable, and yet detailed
enough to make a difference and to execute (your videos are not bad too:), even for an intermediate player. I like sharing some of your instruction with the high school players I coach. Thank you and keep it coming!! Mitch Long
100 % agree.
İ like that you follow thru with your right leg(foot) into the court which is better for older players as they protect their left leg(foot) from excessive stress on landing, just as it was before high-fitness forever young players👏
Brilliant explanation. I'm plagued by the low elbow issue you describe. I really like this subtle yet crucial explanation about the over active wrist. Nice one Nadim! Can't wait to try this out on the court. Thanks so much.
This is my exact issue. I bend at the elbow and go over my head. However when I video it I am doing this with the wrist mostly. No matter how many times I try when a ball is in the air I use the wrist. Thanks for the explanation.
Novice to tennis, but your explanation and easy ways to remember steps is top-notch. I still have a lot to work on and practice but I am hitting the ball in the sweet spot and don't need to chuck as much energy to get the ball traveling quick
Thank you Nadim. This was so helpful to me, not only for the elbow and wrist, but also how you turn the tip of the racquet out on your take back - makes me think of a unit turn concept, where I was going straight down.
Nadim just found you looking to improve my serve and your spot on , easy to understand. I love the slow motion with a detailed commentaries. Your the best, thank you for putting this instructions together.
Very good breakdown. Very common on beg - int players serves. Slow motion footage helps show it much clearer. Great job Nadim
Great nuanced tip Nadim, thanks! Will pay more attention to this detail and check it out it. As I'm growing older, focusing on getting my game more effortless to prevent injury
😎GREAT Video. I especially l❤️ve the way you broke down the steps in s l o w motion!! I didn't realize how tight I was and how I wasn't properly using the power loop and relaxed wrist!! Awesome video. So nice to see you on court!! Thanks Nadim👍
Thanks, Cheri! I hope you are doing well these days. I appreciate you tuning in and finding this video helpful. Hopefully see you and my main man :) again, sooner rather than later!
Nicely done, Nadim. I enjoy how you address relative subtleties of strokes. Keep up the great work!
Thank you very much for tuning in and for taking the time to comment.
This has always been my problem. I started putting my raquet on edge and it helped me probate at contact. Way way more power and down force. Thank you
This is exactly what I do. Glad to see a video that tells me I am not the only one. The question is, how do I keep from engaging the wrist? Also does it matter if the strings point down on the take back or more vertical towards the back fence?
Same here my serve looks like the right video . Not sure what I need to do stop using wrist and make it more like the left video .
Concise, clear, practical. Nadim at his best.
Btw, Thiem used to have a serve 'back swing', racket path up to the trophy position so extreme that his racket never pointed towards the right side during its path up. Rather it just went straight up along a vertical plain perpendicular to the base line. There are a couple of risks in such an extreme motion: a) your elbow angle in the trophy pose tends to stay too open (over 90 degrees), b) (and somewhat related) your racket face tend to open up in the trophy position and c) your swing back loop tends to stay also too much off the court as your upper body stays so long and strongly rotated off the court during the serve motion. Thiem had no problems as regards the points a & b but possibly the fact c has made him to mitigate his back swing path towards less extreme in which the racket tip points more toward right on its horizontal phase. Thiem's body is still quite strongly angled off the court in the contact and that's Even desirable If it is not too extreme (say over 70 degrees) on which case your serve power will start to suffer and slice serve become too difficult.
Long story even longer: Roger has even longer and more classical serve racket take up
(continues) ...but he still manages to incorporate the right pointing racket position to his elegant, unmatched motion even if it takes the long and winding route to get there (just on time). In the first phase Roger's racket points toward left back corner in a downwards orientation and then swiftly and smoothly works its way to right thus pointing to the right back corner in its horizontal position and immdiately next toward right (fence or over it) as his elbow keeps bending in (until it reaches ~87-85 degrees in the trophy position). It is one flawless, impeccable, beautiful serve motion: natural, simple, smooth, fluid - and easy looking. But not easy at all to copy and master (as I have tried and keep on training!).
All in all Roger ane Domi seem to go opposite ways in their respective serve evolutions. While Thiem has shortened his back swing, apparently to get a more court oriented back loop and easier rotation in his slice serve, Roger used to have a more compact racket take up (resemblng the current Thiem) in his teens and twenties gradually developing and honing it toward its present-day pure work of art!
Thank you very much for your concise and relevant information. Your entire serve motion except for the high ball toss reminds of Rod Laver and before him in the 1920’s Bill Tilden. Don
Well if that is not a major compliment then o don’t know what a compliment is. Thank you, Don. Much appreciated. Be well
very good demo of the low elbow problem, would be lot better to talk about how to fix the problem and the helpful drills.
that's exactly my problem, my wrist is to stiff and want to use too much power of wrist, then it causes the body stiffness , thank you for explain it .
Welcome back Nadim! Dang, you nailed this subtle but crucial biomechanical glitch. Getting my left shoulder high and my right shoulder and elbow "low" has helped my serve, but it's only taken me to the mid 3.5 level. And I've noticed shoulder (deltoid) pain from over-exertion because as you point out, it's not efficient. I'm working too hard to get power. Every now and then I hit an effortless 4.0 serve and wonder what I just did differently. I'm sure I'm making this wrist mistake. Milos has an exaggerated wrist bend and I always wondered why. Now I know.
Amazing coach.. I started playing barely 3 years ago. Develop a serve pretty consistent but I can feel I am muscling it. Coach you are the best
. Actually I first watch this 2 years ago but totally didn't get it I was a total begginer back then 😁😁
Very helpful tip here. I have been getting better shoulder turn but am sure that I am getting my wrist involved which is hurting my flow and robbing me of some power. To be sure my improved toss and turn are really big improvements but if I can work this in also I will be very pleased. Thanks again Nadim for all your fine work!
Great lesson, Nadim. I continue to work on my serve and thank you.
Great video! Thanks so much Nadim
Thanks for a soo good advice, shown in a soo good way! 😀👍🎾
I do this adverse wrist movement but do not lower the elbow. But i will be working on this area.
I think this is a great tip and is really important. Thanks.
Picking this coach's serve technique: The pull-down of his tossing arm (left arm) was delayed during serve, which hindered his body rotation and his serve speed.
The source of a powerful serve is THE LOWER BACK. ROTATING AT THE WAIST CREATES the power and proper movement of the shoulders and hitting arm.
This is going to save my arm
This is an important tip
Grreat demonstration of the problem with regard to the low elbow, would be better to show how to fix the problem, ie some drills that help eliminate the low elbow problem.
Well explained , nice demonstration , thank you !
Very nice analysis! Thanks! Pete
Very good information
Interesting. The serve is by far my best stroke. I cannot tell until I play, which of the two I am doing, but the BIG question is, do we need a clinic to improve/implement this tip? Doing it on our own seems risky to say the least, specially since the serve is my best weapon! But a very interesting video...
I think I was bringing it up more with my wrist and then I have to fight to get that racquet on edge before the pronation. Most times I do and the serve is hard but then I know when I opened the racquet face and the serve is not nearly as hard. However, when you bring it up with the elbow you are really bringing it up with shoulder rotation. I remembered doing rotator cuff exercises at PT years ago, and that movement was one of them but with a light weight. So my question is how much can your weak rotator cuff muscles take? I have a similar question with the ATP forehand. My wrist lays back much farther than I can do statically and what does that do long term and to young kids? I will try today to bring it up without the wrist and I am sure my fight to get racquet on edge will be cured. Just hope my old rotator cuff muscles can handle the change.
Psycho gr8 stuff - as always; thank you very much...!
Thank you very much, Ken. Best wishes to you
Nadim...Good Stuff...Any tips or drills for ensuring proper elbow position on the serve?
Thank you, Chris. Check out these videos. Type into the RUclips search bar:
“Tennis Serve Tip: Lead with the elbow and add 5-10 mph to your serve”, “Serve Tip: Role of the elbow”, “”more Serve power Tip: fix your elbow position”. Let me know if any of these help. Best wishes.
perfect explanation with the comparison well done tks a lot
Great video. Thanks
How would you suggest drilling for this correct movement?
Excelente observação!
É o segredo do saque!
Great stuff
How do you fix this problem? Definitely have issues with low elbow. Thanks.
Very thx for explanation.
Great video, but i have i problem i do it perfect without the ball, when i try to serve i make mistake. Who to correct the mistake?
Thank you for the great video!
I'm a beginer so want to know shuld I deliberately try to make my elbow upward like in this vedio? or does it has more to do with racket drop when you turn your body shoulder to shoulder?
Will appreciate your advice :)
Any clinics on serve coming up in eastern? Pls let us know
How many more mph can you achieve by doing the serve the better way vs the less efficient one?
Thanks Nadim. Does one keep the wrist flexed all through the swing going forward to contact also? Will Reents
This is exactly what im doing on my serve
So which one is correct? The left or the right?
which one is correct? the right one ?
We explained coach
Which one is right then? Unclear
Is it not also important to first think about throwing the ball up high. I often see players not throwing up high enough?
Hello Willene. Thank you for tuning in. The ball doesn’t have to be very high at all. It can work but is more often less likely to help players with their serves. Many players think it has to be higher “in order to have enough time to hit it” but it’s actually not true. Writing about it here would take a long time but why don’t you check out this video here. Florian describes how you can make either work Hope it helps and thank for your comment: ruclips.net/video/ac7BTGvT84M/видео.html
... To avoid confusion.
The opposite of this may solve my high elbow
Show correct way FULL SCREEN.
This lesson seems to contradict "getting into proper trophy position" taught by many on YT. In fact, in your side-by-side you did not even mention it. 🤔
Not really; the trophy position is a position which you transit through; it's not static. The thing that he doesn't emphasize quite enough, though he does mention it, is the full loop that the racquet head travels on the way to contact. The racquet drop and path to to contact is not a vertical line, but a loop. By let the elbow rise and separate from the body, this loop is achieved more easily, and it compresses the shoulder much less than the 'wrong' way that he demonstrates. This is a super good presentation; the only thing I would add (and its a later issue), is the path that the elbow travels after the drop, to contact, and during follow-through (which is actually pretty complex).
@@Osnosis it appears some pros serve with the racq tip upright, followed by a slightly open face racq. tho their elbow isn't low. hm.
@@LaBambaCL yes, but very few stop their motion at that moment; there is, with some players, a modest slowing of the motion, but a hitch is not good. One of the problems we have as students of the game is careful differentiation between stop-motion photos and smooth video.
@@Osnosis well, the tip up seems to be some young players. something i noticed watching highlights of matches. is it a different way to serve, or a less optimal way?
in any case, i'll try nadim's tip, and your comments. it's not entirely new to me, but i forgot! ;)
@@LaBambaCL I am just not a fan of hitches/stops in any stroke. Smooth & long equals high racquet head speed.
WoRd uP
You left arm stay up too long it hindered your motion
Too much instructions and too less demonstration !!
Wrist doesn’t “round”.. it is flexed
Is this new??
Bla..bla...
You can NOT learn from YT.Period.
You and your associates with OTI are so caught up in the upper body; you fail to recognize the potential for the lower body (if used effectively) to provide the bulk of the power in a tennis serve. Physics can show you the way.
You spent way too much time in study room. Go out to the court hit some balls then commend buddy. Have a nice day ;)
@@haroldho19 Hal Ho, what do you know? I can't fix stupid, but I can fix ignorance.
Nadim, this is more confusing. Jeff Salenstein’s analysis is so much better.
Get to the point! Talking too much! 🤦🏽♂️