Great video as ever! As an aside; a friend of mine fired Lion at the the K&WVR when it visited in the '70s/'80s, he recounted how he trolled one of the drivers in the yard, he knew of the 'reversed' reversing lever whilst the driver did not...
Any of the steam locomotive that were around prior to 1850 is good stuff. Please do as many as you feel comfortable to do, I personally don't give a stuff as to where they ran, they are all interesting in their own right. This is a brilliant series Mr Dawson and much enjoyed, please don't feel confined to the UK, there is a whole World out there...
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory have you any information on the origins of the French word for a driver of a steam locomotive I understand Engineer may have English origins? or it may not have any English connections?
@@eliotreader8220 The English word 'Engineer' is derived from the Fernch 'Ingenieur' meaning an engineer, but originally someone who built fortifications and knew how to attack them. It comes from the Latin Igeneum meaning an 'engine'. French locomotive crews were Ingeneiurs and Chauffeurs - but now Chauffeur means someone who drives a car, but the word of course is derived from 'Chaud' meaning hot in French. The Americans also call their locomotive drivers 'Engineers'. In France a Locomotive Ingenieur was far better trained than a British 'driver' and had to have sat examinations in engineering and how the locomotive worked, in addition to formal classes, training and also on the job training. British drivers were taught pretty much word of mouth, hands on, and still are. French Ingenieurs were far more qualified with a higher level of training and practical and theoretical knowledge. Differant cultures.
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory I think the driver/engineers might have been called "mécaniciens" in France. The greater technical training in France may be why the de Glehn compounds did not deliver such good performance in English (or American) hands as they were reputed to provide in France.
A fascinating look at this lovely loco. I would like to second calls for an overview of the Crampton locomotives, which have long held a particular fascination for me.
I recently acquired some old negatives of this loco. Once I had scanned them I realised that they were taken at Dover. Presumably this was when the loco was imported to take part in the Festival of Britain.
Thank you for this look at one of my favorites. Continuing on a Crewe type theme, perhaps the first locomotive in Spain might be worth a look in the future? Might offer an interesting opportunity for a tangent on Jones (Ajax would also make an interesting video for that matter.)
Oh yes. I'm asking a colleague in Spain about her and access to images. So many locos I'd love to cover but it's getting pictures of them that's the problem
@@shroomzed2947 If you like nice images of French locomotives, there's this forum for French postcard collectors: www.cparama.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=113&sid=bedbc81c0112c0d12c84e597f4529897 Roland Arzul has a page on the Chemin de Fer d'Etat: roland.arzul.pagesperso-orange.fr/ Archives of the SNCF can be found here: openarchives.sncf.com/ If you want something more technical: journals.openedition.org/rhcf/
I always find domestic copies/inspired locos (IE very early exported locos) to be really interesting. I hadn't heard of this one before, but it is really fascinating to see how similar this one is to the Columbine. Is there a Crampton at this same museum? And would 'Old Ironsides' be doable? I always loved Baldwin's knockoff Planet type that he got frustrated with and swore to never build another afterwards.
There is indeed a Crampton on the same line just behind St. Pierre, Le Continent, one of the last surviving Cramptons in the world. Agreed on the tale of Old Ironsides. One story I heard was that to bore the cylinders Baldwin initially lacked the required machinery and so had to make do with an iron chisel fixed into a block of hard wood. As a result, the steam seals of the cylinders were so bad that in her first trials Ironsides could only manage the heady speed of 1 mph. It was only after acquiring replacement cylinders that she performed as intended, and I too have heard the legend that a disgusted Baldwin swore never to build another locomotive again. Little did he know his company would grow to be the biggest locomotive manufacturer in the world.
@@sirrliv Some of Baldwin's pain was caused by the railroad trying to go back on their agreed price, after Baldwin had expended considerable effort in setting things right. On the topic of Cramptons, it is interesting that a number of early American locomotives, including Baldwin's second loco, featured a single driving axle mounted behind the firebox. And indeed, even some early English imports were so converted - years before the Crampton patent.
@@sirrliv I hadn't heard about Ironsides' cylinder block being handmade in that way, though it makes sense that it wouldn't get up to any serious speeds with it. On the subject of American style Crampton locos, I've actually been modelling a very crude one in HO/00 scale that I may film once it is at a more advanced stage of construction.
Altho' of course St Pierre wasn't an export - she was built in France to the same design and by the same designer as Columbine in Britain. So of course the two are similar - the 'Buddicom' locomotive was meant to be a standard design for the Grand Junction Railway in Britain and the Chemin de Fer de Paris a Rouen in France. They then later evolved on their own. Old Ironsides is interested and shows how weak international patent law was: American builders were quite happy steal Robert Stephenson's designs, which is morally and ethically dubious. It's always left a bitter taste in my mouth and cetrainly Robert's back in the day. Baldwin was an intellectual thief, but at least unlike the Norris family was more ethical in his other dealings being a very ardent Abolitionist. You win some, you lose some.
To be fair to Baldwin he did not repeat Old Ironsides. It would be a pretty interesting story though, as the popular account of Old Ironsides' genesis (that it was a copy of the Camden and Amboy's John Bull) doesn't quite add up and raises a lot of questions.
I think a look into the crampton type locos could be interesting, originally designed in the UK but ultimately not very well suited. They were quite popular in France and Germany despite the inherent lack of traction though
The lack of traction thing is a bit of myth - the tenders were close-coupled almost rigidly so making a long articulated unit the weight from the tender adding to the load on the driving wheel. The big problem in Britain was the incredibly long fixed wheelbased which badly damaged the track, especially on curves. Fascinating machine nonetheless.
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory having the tender apply weight to the rear of the loco is a very interesting point that I hadn't heard of being used on the cramptons. That would certainly help a fair bit
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory Mike Sharman used to make model Cramptons fifty years or more ago. He used the weighted tender method to get traction. Independent thinking or from his knowledge of Cramptons perhaps.
St. Pierre was restored to original condition, whilst Columbine still retains many features from its long life, other than removal of the cab but that is in store, so too the tender.
I'm sticking firmly to self-propelled kettles other than Cycloped at Rainhill. Non-steam locomotives other than the first electric locomotive which was built in Scotland in the 1840s fall out of my sphere of interest and knowledge i.e post 1850.
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory Indeed, well said. Given that rail itself dates back to Antiquity, I had a curious thought of any attempts to automate aside of the horse.
Great video as ever! As an aside; a friend of mine fired Lion at the the K&WVR when it visited in the '70s/'80s, he recounted how he trolled one of the drivers in the yard, he knew of the 'reversed' reversing lever whilst the driver did not...
I hope in future you will have a look to the "Bayard" the first steam locomotive in italy
Any of the steam locomotive that were around prior to 1850 is good stuff. Please do as many as you feel comfortable to do, I personally don't give a stuff as to where they ran, they are all interesting in their own right. This is a brilliant series Mr Dawson and much enjoyed, please don't feel confined to the UK, there is a whole World out there...
Your French is quite impressive. Unlike what we learn in school, it legitimately sounds French.
Thankyou. I've been told my French is sort of Parisian. Definately not Ted Heath!
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory have you any information on the origins of the French word for a driver of a steam locomotive I understand Engineer may have English origins? or it may not have any English connections?
@@eliotreader8220 The English word 'Engineer' is derived from the Fernch 'Ingenieur' meaning an engineer, but originally someone who built fortifications and knew how to attack them. It comes from the Latin Igeneum meaning an 'engine'. French locomotive crews were Ingeneiurs and Chauffeurs - but now Chauffeur means someone who drives a car, but the word of course is derived from 'Chaud' meaning hot in French. The Americans also call their locomotive drivers 'Engineers'. In France a Locomotive Ingenieur was far better trained than a British 'driver' and had to have sat examinations in engineering and how the locomotive worked, in addition to formal classes, training and also on the job training. British drivers were taught pretty much word of mouth, hands on, and still are. French Ingenieurs were far more qualified with a higher level of training and practical and theoretical knowledge. Differant cultures.
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory I think the driver/engineers might have been called "mécaniciens" in France. The greater technical training in France may be why the de Glehn compounds did not deliver such good performance in English (or American) hands as they were reputed to provide in France.
Just found this channel and i already love it.
Glad to hear it! Thankyou
A fascinating look at this lovely loco. I would like to second calls for an overview of the Crampton locomotives, which have long held a particular fascination for me.
I recently acquired some old negatives of this loco. Once I had scanned them I realised that they were taken at Dover. Presumably this was when the loco was imported to take part in the Festival of Britain.
Thank you for this look at one of my favorites. Continuing on a Crewe type theme, perhaps the first locomotive in Spain might be worth a look in the future? Might offer an interesting opportunity for a tangent on Jones (Ajax would also make an interesting video for that matter.)
Oh yes. I'm asking a colleague in Spain about her and access to images. So many locos I'd love to cover but it's getting pictures of them that's the problem
Fascinating as always.
Glad you enjoyed it
Hence,"the gift of the gab," or maybe not. Interesting video, hope Alexander Allen isn't turning in his grave.
And if cars are also an interest Mulhouse is definitely also worth a visit 1 day at Citi du train and 2 days at the brother slumph collection
Perhaps one of these days you could do a video on the Austrian Balanced locomotive "Duplex"
I’d like more videos on French locomotives. Info on French locomotives is relatively hard to come by.
In that case you'll love tomorrow's video! There's plenty out there about French locomotives, but pretty much it's all in French. Unsurprisingly.
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory Are you aware of any websites that harbour good information on the subject then?
@@shroomzed2947 If you like nice images of French locomotives, there's this forum for French postcard collectors:
www.cparama.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=113&sid=bedbc81c0112c0d12c84e597f4529897
Roland Arzul has a page on the Chemin de Fer d'Etat:
roland.arzul.pagesperso-orange.fr/
Archives of the SNCF can be found here:
openarchives.sncf.com/
If you want something more technical:
journals.openedition.org/rhcf/
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory Absolutely fantastic. Thank you very much, it is appreciated.
@Anthony Dawson I don't mean to be greedy furthermore, but do you have anything focusing on Nord locomotives?
locomotive legend
Very nice video!
Thank you! Cheers!
I always find domestic copies/inspired locos (IE very early exported locos) to be really interesting. I hadn't heard of this one before, but it is really fascinating to see how similar this one is to the Columbine. Is there a Crampton at this same museum? And would 'Old Ironsides' be doable? I always loved Baldwin's knockoff Planet type that he got frustrated with and swore to never build another afterwards.
There is indeed a Crampton on the same line just behind St. Pierre, Le Continent, one of the last surviving Cramptons in the world.
Agreed on the tale of Old Ironsides. One story I heard was that to bore the cylinders Baldwin initially lacked the required machinery and so had to make do with an iron chisel fixed into a block of hard wood. As a result, the steam seals of the cylinders were so bad that in her first trials Ironsides could only manage the heady speed of 1 mph. It was only after acquiring replacement cylinders that she performed as intended, and I too have heard the legend that a disgusted Baldwin swore never to build another locomotive again. Little did he know his company would grow to be the biggest locomotive manufacturer in the world.
@@sirrliv Some of Baldwin's pain was caused by the railroad trying to go back on their agreed price, after Baldwin had expended considerable effort in setting things right. On the topic of Cramptons, it is interesting that a number of early American locomotives, including Baldwin's second loco, featured a single driving axle mounted behind the firebox. And indeed, even some early English imports were so converted - years before the Crampton patent.
@@sirrliv I hadn't heard about Ironsides' cylinder block being handmade in that way, though it makes sense that it wouldn't get up to any serious speeds with it.
On the subject of American style Crampton locos, I've actually been modelling a very crude one in HO/00 scale that I may film once it is at a more advanced stage of construction.
Altho' of course St Pierre wasn't an export - she was built in France to the same design and by the same designer as Columbine in Britain. So of course the two are similar - the 'Buddicom' locomotive was meant to be a standard design for the Grand Junction Railway in Britain and the Chemin de Fer de Paris a Rouen in France. They then later evolved on their own.
Old Ironsides is interested and shows how weak international patent law was: American builders were quite happy steal Robert Stephenson's designs, which is morally and ethically dubious. It's always left a bitter taste in my mouth and cetrainly Robert's back in the day. Baldwin was an intellectual thief, but at least unlike the Norris family was more ethical in his other dealings being a very ardent Abolitionist. You win some, you lose some.
To be fair to Baldwin he did not repeat Old Ironsides. It would be a pretty interesting story though, as the popular account of Old Ironsides' genesis (that it was a copy of the Camden and Amboy's John Bull) doesn't quite add up and raises a lot of questions.
I think a look into the crampton type locos could be interesting, originally designed in the UK but ultimately not very well suited. They were quite popular in France and Germany despite the inherent lack of traction though
The lack of traction thing is a bit of myth - the tenders were close-coupled almost rigidly so making a long articulated unit the weight from the tender adding to the load on the driving wheel. The big problem in Britain was the incredibly long fixed wheelbased which badly damaged the track, especially on curves. Fascinating machine nonetheless.
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory having the tender apply weight to the rear of the loco is a very interesting point that I hadn't heard of being used on the cramptons. That would certainly help a fair bit
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory Mike Sharman used to make model Cramptons fifty years or more ago. He used the weighted tender method to get traction. Independent thinking or from his knowledge of Cramptons perhaps.
Why does it have wooden boiler lagging where as Columbine has Metal Boiler Lagging? Was there a design update between they're build dates?
St. Pierre was restored to original condition, whilst Columbine still retains many features from its long life, other than removal of the cab but that is in store, so too the tender.
Well your french is certainly interesting to say the least but far better than my own I must admit
It's a work in progress.
Will you even as an aside or footnote, cover any mechanical locomotives that were not steam driven?
I'm sticking firmly to self-propelled kettles other than Cycloped at Rainhill. Non-steam locomotives other than the first electric locomotive which was built in Scotland in the 1840s fall out of my sphere of interest and knowledge i.e post 1850.
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory Indeed, well said. Given that rail itself dates back to Antiquity, I had a curious thought of any attempts to automate aside of the horse.
Interesting. Calling it the Crewe or Allan type shows that xenophobic nationalism was not exclusively French.