Here’s the issue: the FBI had a warrant only for certain parts of the building and had NO Authority under warrant or otherwise to open the safe. They were given the master code by Liberty Safe without a court ordered subpoena (major strike against Liberty Safe), and the FBI opened the safe by deceit which is also illegal. So the law says that since the FBI opened the safe without a warrant, they can not use ANY evidence they found in the safe, or information contained in the safe that was used to acquire other evidence. Both are in hot water here.
@@Seasniffer69 exactly correct. Aided and abetted by Liberty Safe, who can now be sued civilly for providing access to a person’s private property without any authority to do so.
Maybe if as you stated is correct. Judges have ways of helping law enforcement out by keeping evidence in the trial. As I heard it the warrent covered locked boxes. Normally an underlying warrent would be required for a safe. Even if the warrent covers the safe, the warrent could be thrown out due to legal issues. The prosecutor will argue that the safes contents were lawfully obtained with 3rd party information. They want this treated like tech companies handling over data. They don't want it handling to where a separate warrent or subpoena is required as precedence with cell phones and cloud storage shows.
@@tim18wheels76 you make a good point here. Biased judges do have a tendency to “bend the law” more than unbiased judges. And it would not be the first time a judge used creative reasoning to justify allowing evidence that would otherwise be considered the “fruit of the poisonous tree” as attorneys refer to it.
@@bryanb3352 As an officer of the court. The lawyer can ensure things like they don't plant evidence in the safe, that their warrant is valid, that they only seize things in the warrant. Cops no not want your lawyer there.
While I agree, I also recognize that the FBI was going to get in that safe one way or the other. My real beef with Liberty is that they used profits gained primarily from firearms owners to support and elect extreme anti second amendment candidates. I think that Liberty has been caught going full Bud Lite and within a year will cease to exist.
I say shame on the Biden administration and their corruption of the Dept. of Justice. Twelve or ?? cars stuffed full of FBI agents armed to the teeth to arrest a guy for peacefully protesting the illegal corrupt election at the Capital on January 6,2020 ?? Their message is/was quite clear. Don't mess with the Democrats re: their corrupt doings on elections. And also to fire yet another shot across Donald Trump's bow. SICK, SICK, SICK !!!
If the govt has a warrant to get into your safe, they're going to get into your safe. I understand the frustration with the company, but in practice has anything really changed other than your safe doesn't get destroyed?
If you have a mechanical lock, the first thing you do is set the combination so that you are the only person who knows the combination. You don't need a technician to change the combination - just a key or tool the turn and start the process of changing the combination. Small tip - make sure you can lock and unlock your safe door a few times with the door OPEN so that you don't accidentally lock yourself out.
Bingo. If you (speaking genericly) buy a safe that you cannot lock out the manufacture by changing the code or combinaiton, then YOU are your own problem.
Dumb owners would not win a lawsuit. They don't even know enough not to buy a safe that doesn't allow them to lock out the manufacture by changing the code or combination.
@@patrickfaricy5741 Any safe can be opened without any code or key. The only question is whether or not you want a usable safe afterwards. If you do want it to remain usable, then giving the govt the code when they have a warrant is your best bet.
The thing that bothers me most about all this mess is that I wonder why the FBI thinks it has a reason to open a safe of a man they wanted arrested for protesting but not entering the capital on Jan 6th. There is not one reason.
The thing that bothers me most about all this mess is that you can get arrested for protesting. The right to petition is a First Amendment right. When the first fails it is time to move onto the Second. That's what the Founding Fathers said we should do. At this point the government is abdicating their authority by not fulfilling their own sworn duty.
Except that the FBI didn't destroy the safe in order to get into it..... which we all know that it would have happened if they didn't get the backdoor code.
That should be the owner's and costumer's call to make not liberty safe, tell them to get the owner's permission or court order. And Wayne when some one looks up Liberty safe your pic should be beside it, did you say just if the FBI hires you, no court order, that you would just open the safe@@Rich22C
Several legal experts said Liberty Safe was under no obligation to hand over the code because the safe was not company property and the company was not the target of the search warrant.
I don't know the details, but the reverse should be true. For Lib to not give the code could be charged as obstruction, if it is proven that Lib actually has the code. On the other hand IF Lib was the target of the investigation (the defendant), then the company would be protected under the 5th amendment and not legally required to produce the code since a code is a "product of the mind."
@@viralsheddingzombie5324I don’t think you understand obstruction. They had zero obligation to give the code. Also, there was no warrant for the contents of the safe.
@@viralsheddingzombie5324 thing is , none of the court warrants had anything to do with liberty. they were under 0 obligation to even talk to the fbi .. they gave their business up for nothing.
As stated in this video, he said that generally, safes ship with a set combination which is documented at the factory. As stated in the video, generally, when people buy a combination safe, they do not pay for a locksmith to come change the combination on their shiny new safe. As stated in the video, it would be possible to give away the documented combination that they keep records of.
That is possible. I haven't been a locksmith for many years but would like to know if such a lock exist. Model and make? Thanks!@@christopherkidwell9817
@@christopherkidwell9817 What design, manufacturer and model number of lock would that be? I certainly can't think of one and I've been a safe tech for over a decade. Just asking.
There should not be any back door to a safe lock. That’s what the consumer pays for, SECURITY! Make the person or entity that is breaking into to your safe work for it. The more difficult it is for them the better.
To be the Devils advocate, I worked for Diebold and would change combinations on bank vaults. They would have a system that took two people to open the vault. The Bank Manger had half, the tellers would have the other. I get a frantic call the next day that the teller called in sick and left her combo in the vault. They wanted to know if I had written it down or remember what it was. NOPE, I never write it down except for your combo card. Nor would I ever admit to knowing the entire combo to a vault hold 10's of thousands of $$$$. That would put a target on my back. I was able to go in with an installer code and create a new user. Always tell them I can only create users not open it. Of course I could create my own, but I have fear of going to jail. So yes sometimes back door is necessary. Unless a private citizen requests it I agree with you. This video is the best answer, mechanical lock and change the combo, you can even go to a 1 number combo if you want in in a hurry.
@RayRay-zc2ed Absolutely correct and that's what these safe companies have been selling to people this entire time. Now we find out it's been an intentional lie of omission this entire time. I want everything associated with this industry burned to the ground and looted of any valuables. Not one person on Earth has ever bought a safe with the desire that there be two or three other "override" codes that could open their safes, NOT ONE!
yup. I would never but a safe with an electronic lock. Except maybe something small that you want to access quickly if needed. Not to store a bunch of guys or whatever though
Think about that. As the man said, if they want in.......they are going to get in. That means REGARDLESS of what kind of lock you have on a safe. I say keep your electronic lock for the convenience of it. I am keeping my S&G !
@@larkinoo Nope I agree with the OP on this one. the old technology is more secure than the new based on this story alone. If you are willing to be less secure for convenience that is on you.
You make my decision to keep my S&G electronic lock sound so foreboding. If you choose a dial lock over an electronic one I say to each their own. I doubt I will ever be put into the same situation as the guy that got raided by the FBI, for protesting an election was it ?? Welcome to The Banana Republic of the United { ??? } States !@@Stubbies2003
Well you really need to clarify that statement. I know what you meant but it reads ambiguously. The warrant the FBI had against the owner of the safe isn't enough for liberty to roll over like they did. If that warrant had been against liberty directly for the code then yes it would be.
@@Stubbies2003 But Liberty only provided to the FBI a master code it created, that applies to thousands of safes. The defendant did not own the master code. The real question is whether the gov. acted legally.
You're a master technician Wayne, and we appreciate your bias about privacy rights. Once the safe is property of the purchaser/owner, when manufacturer (or technician) violates those rights by volunteering 'backdoor' or any other form of unauthorised entry of property - this breaks more than just a legal or moral social contract. If manufacture like Liberty safes don't safeguard our liberty - they should suffer the consequences. Likewise if any 'technician' is willing to 'contract' to open a safe without owners authorization - they too violate the same legal and moral contracts.
I totally get what you're saying, and I agree. The FBI, ATF, DOJ or ??? will not be stopped by a safe, regardless of the lock. But where Liberty erred is in rolling over and making it incredibly easy for them... To me, as a consumer, that makes them untrustworthy. Liberty's primary objective should be the security of their customers' property. They should defend that objective vigorously.
Id remove the serial #'s from where ever they are located and then make a fake serial # sticker. That way it can at least keep someone busy spinning their wheels awhile.
@@famousamoso7 not entirely true. think hotel/motel they have a master key that opens every single room. with a digital lock, it is quite easy to have a master code that will unlock every single safe regardless of serial number. it is actually easier and cheaper to do this than to have a serial generator that has one for each and every safe. which not only needs a specific code, but also a secure storage location, both in digital *AND* in physical.
@famousamoso7 You are making a reasonable assumption, but still an assumption. You are assuming that the manager key on these locks were set differently based on the serial number. The lock sets Liberty is using has 2 codes, the user and the manager. They don't even acknowledge the manager key in their documentation, but if you go to the lock manufacturer, it's in their manual. So as long as Liberty set a different manager key per serial number, then you would be correct. I am not giving Liberty any credit, seeing how easy they rolled over.
Yes, shame on Liberty Safe. I just bought one last year. Took possession of said safe mid 2023. Being the local distributor was my local locksmith , at no charge, they changed my combo lock from electronic to a manual dial type lock at my request. The combination is known by me and me alone. You are totally correct, Wayne. Thank you for the video.
Given the politicization of the FBI and other law enforcing agencies, it is not beyond them to open such safe and plant an incriminating artifact in it. Being able to open the safe with no external evidence takes away the ability of the owner to defend themselves in court against such likely abuse. And Wayne's definitely right about the fact that security is an illusion. That is the case not just with safes but with anything else.
Why do they have to plant the evidence in the safe? They can toss it on the floor. They can make you hold it so it has your prints on it. They can say they found it while conducting a full cavity search. Maybe them finding it in the safe isn't so bad after all?
And, the 'planting of evidence' IS not only in the FBI's bag of UNCONSTITUTIONAL trickery, it IS taught to each and every law enforcement agency in the country, as part of the "assistance' and policy that the FBI provides these smaller agencies.
@@1pcfred Even with a warrant/subpoena, the owner or any non-government witness aren't going to be there and they aren't going to film it. Even if they did film it, nothing would stop them from re-enacting it and deleting the first take. If you are worried about the FBI, or whoever, the best choice is not to produce the evidence in the first place, second immediate destruction, third auto destroy trigger. After that, everything is just building a case against you. Best keep it somewhere people will never look because they are getting in that safe, even if it takes weeks to grind through it.
Any safe only slows someone down. Given unlimited time, money, and resources, any safe will be breached. But the goal is to actually make it difficult. Liberty made it easy...Thus, they became 'The unsafe safe"...(although PROBABLY not fair, they earned it.) To be completely fair, they (Liberty/FBI) have probably done this many times before, but not for this type of arrest, and not as widely publicized. Great lesson on locks by the way. Thank you.
They publicize and tell you to your face that someone can always physically break in given enough time, what they don't tell you is the combination part isn't real and that they program in other codes other than yours so that anyone who can get access to those codes (not YOUR code) can also get into your safe including basically anyone at their company or at the lock company or a locksmith or any random that gets access to that info. They don't advertise that your lock is basically worthless because of them or the manufacturer of the locks have backdoor access. No one would have bought a safe knowing that.
The Liberty press release said that they process about 4000 requests for the backdoor passcode each year----when owner forgets his code, for if owner dies and estate requires safe entry, and for law enforcement requests, etc.. They claim they insist that a search warrant "for the owner's property" be presented to them My problem is that Liberty no longer owns the safe, so the search warrant is not being served on them. A subpoena duces tecum is the document which Liberty should require, and they now claim to have revised their policy to require such. They also will expunge the backdoor passcode from their records upon request---go to their website to start the process. Obviously, this will NOT remove the backdoor passcode. Removing the SN from the lock and safe would also make it harder to find which backdoor passcode to use.
It doesn't matter if the FBI would have breached the safe no matter what. The issue was about Liberty handing over a master code without any legal subpoena directed at them.
I’m an IT security architect with a 40 year tech career and a good base in electronics engineering/design security AND a good background in lock picking. I also am a hobby coder. Knowing all that my safes are all old school dial combinations and I use the reset key and changed my combo on them all. My digital and lock background had already told me an electronic lock has a back door. All software has a back door for the creator.
When my dad was alive he insisted on dial safes as well not trusting electronic locks from being jammed to open with devices (also a possibility) or some kinda EMP.
I think that what is missing from this conversation is that once they had a valid search warrant they had access to the safe. The only question was whether they accessed the safe destructively or nondestructively. After all just because it says 'gun safe' on the outside doesn't mean anything to law enforcement about what else might be inside of it. Just because you bought an expensive gun safe does not mean that law enforcement with a valid warrent is going to say 'oh well, a safe, nothing we can do'.
The real issue isn't whether or not the government can get into the safe. The real issue arises in cases where your safe is searched illegally. As Runkle of the Bailey, a firearms defense attorney, pointed out, it will be difficult for you to claim you didn't give them permission and access to the safe if they didn't have to cut it open.
@@DynastyOmens while the defense doesn't have to prove anything proving things can strengthen a case. Presenting carefully crafted logical arguments can certainly help too. The obvious thing here is why would anyone grant access if they knew there was contraband to be found. If it's yours and you put it in the safe there's no way you'd just open the safe. Not unless you were really goofy. So it is obvious they forced entry. No great mental gymnastics are needed to reach this conclusion.
This just confirms what I already thought. Mechanical dials are more secure by only having a single entry code, and no override code. And the mechanical dial can be changed once and then suddenly no one at the company knows the number.
I swapped out an electric keypad lock for a mechanical dial. However, none of the holes lined up, no screw holes, ect. I had to weld new bars and bend into shape some of the linkage inside the mechanism, and drill and tap new holes to line everything up. Totally worth it. My keypad was dying and would just stop working at random, and a new keypad would probably eventually die as well.
You're comparing apples to oranges. The FBI had a warrant. You don't service your customers with warrants. Furthermore, the warrant was for the individual. Liberty was NOT obligated or compelled to give them anything, but they did anyway.
Do you have to be obligated or compelled to do everything? The FBI was getting into that safe. I mean it wasn't like the cops were going to show up to stop them. If everything works out the customer will still have their safe and it'll still be functional too.
@@1pcfredIf they break into it by force, and it turns out they had no right they have to replace it. Makes a pretty compelling reason to "risk" destroying your safe
Nice work, Wayne! I spent a number of years as a locksmith and also did a fair share of safe work. As you say, there is not one that will stay closed once the legal process to get into it is working. When I would replace a lock or repair one, I always recommended mechanical ones. I would take the time to show the owner how to change their combination for themselves if they could demonstrate to me that they could do it. I tried to avoid setting a new combination that *I* made up. If I did make up a combination I would write it down for them and watch them correctly operate it several times. But my preference was to have them use the proper tool or key and set heir own combination that even I would not know. Before I cut them loose to do that, I would always make sure they had the process of combination change down pat and could do it. I'm amazed how many people think a search warrant isn't a sufficient legal document. If there is a search warrant for John Doe's house, and the house is locked, nobody has to wait for yet another document saying law enforcement can use physical force to get into the house. The mere issuance of the search warrant means when the cops come either the owner can step out of the way and let them in OR they can force their way in the house immediately even if they have to break things like locks and doors. Same applies if a safe or other locked container is part of a search warrant. Nothing else is required.
@rebeccabirchfield5908 I personally would go mechanical. EXCEPT if it's a safe containing a self defense weapon to which immediate access may be required. Otherwise I'm going mechanical and setting the combination myself.
Glad you shared information. I knew when electronic locks first came out, they were vulnerable. Nothing like a good old-fashioned combination or key lock except for a combination(s) and key(s) lock.
@@maxsoregon I doubt it's EMP proof. Bet you a hundred bucks I could fry the thing with a simple off-the-shelf components based EMP device using wire antennas and capacitors
@@MiniDevilDFExactly;unless you personally install a faraday cage over your electronic Sargeant & Greenleaf combination lock,an EMP or a CME will fry it.The EMP and CME hardened electronic combination locks;costs more than a Liberty Safe costs which is tens of thousands of dollars,which means that only the wealthy elites can afford them.
One of the big issues in my opinion is the lack of transparency of the safe/lock manufacturers about the presence of backdoors in their products. It should be way more obvious so users can make informed decisions.
Of course but the point is to not be an easy mark. It is the difference between someone who locks their car doors and someone who doesn't. Same situation. The car door lock isn't going to prevent entry but it is going to dissuade the laziest of thieves. It is up to individuals to pick their level of dissuasion to unauthorized entry. Not up to liberty.
Good video and explanation. Though I don't know that I agree with your premise that "security is an illusion". I do agree that nothing is "secure". But in my opinion security is not an illusion, but a tactic and a deterring / delaying one at that. How much of a delay / deterrent is it, and is it enough to achieve your goals is the question. As an example, a locked front door may be enough to deter someone from entering your house. But it will not deter everyone. A locked front door will just delay another person's entry long enough for them to find a window to break. "Security" is about deterring enough a percentage of people willing to challenge your defenses that attempts become infrequent and that the layers provide enough of a delay for an credible attempt to be noticed and action taken.
Yes. Just like "locking" your cars but wont impede a criminal from throwing a stone thru your window and stealing stuff inside like clockwork in San Francisco.
Security is mostly theater. You might prefer that wording. It's performative and mostly only keeps honest people honest and deters lazy dishonest people.
I was worried about this very sort of thing when I ordered my safe, which is why I ordered it with a mechanical lock. However, upon delivery the driver informed me they were all out of the safes with the mechanical lock & they were on delayed backorder. He offered me a free "upgrade" to an electronic lock & I agreed. Wish Id have waited, or better yet, ordered my safe from a more reputable manufacturer than Liberty. At the time, they were well respected. They've definitely lost a client.
If you hav a Liberty safe with electronic lock, you can change the Supermaster combo yourself which would mean Liberty wouldnt know it and couldnt help anyone open your safe. Yes, there are ways to still force your way in, but that helps you in court if the go that route. All these locks have a factory default combo for user andcfor super user- find out your models default, open your safe, access the back side of your lock and perform a reset, then follow procedures to set a new super and user combo.
Main point, locks, like any other barrier (Great Wall of China, Maginot Line, etcetera) can be circumvented. A federal/local police agency, or criminal, sees a safe during a search, they’re going to want to get at the contents. Usually for the same reasons. The lock only prolongs the inevitable. Wayne, your point about convenience is what’s really at the heart of our “personal security/privacy” problem. We now have cell phones, laptops, tablets, and even watches that provide convenience during everyday life. But these tools are a two way street. In the modern world, it’s becoming more difficult to go through life without being connected, and open to having your information collected. Security from a safe, bank code, password, etcetera, is a false premise. Awesome and informative video.
That's why you go all Matryoshka safe, they crack the outer single combo lock safe and find some fondag or similar anchoring in a slightly smaller dual-lock safe, then inside that another safe all through bolt anchored to the floor. Preferably starting with a TRTL-30x6 rated safe, holding a TRTL-60x6 inner safe, ... in other words they will still get in but make it as frustrating and time consuming as possible
I cracked my first safe this week. With advice from lock Smith. We had the number but would not open. His suggestion.... hit with mallet, dial , hit , dial and so on. And yes it opened. I feel very happy.
I'm currently researching safes for an upgrade and Liberty is 100% out of the question and I will be disposing of my old Liberty safe at some point. I've been looking at the Rhino Metals IWT7242X (Good to hear that they slow walk the override code/combo process) with the standard dial lock. Now I am contemplating having a locksmith replace the dial after installation and then having another locksmith replace that one..
I have a rhino safe. The keypad went out. For security reasons, they were very through to insure I was the owner. I had to provide the original sales receipt. I kept the original receipt as per their instruction when I purchased the safe. They will give you written instructions to change the master and user codes. VERY happy with my Rhino!
You can buy a change key that is designed for your brand of mechanical lock and change it yourself. I did that with an American Security safe and it worked great but you have to follow the directions exactly as they are written, it's not complicated but if you screw it up you will need to hire a locksmith to fix it and it will likely cost more that had you hired one to change the combination without trying it yourself. If you get it right you save some money by doing it yourself and you are the only one who will know the combination. The important thing to remember is that there are two lines on the lock's bezel, one for regular opening and the other to change the combination and you must use a certain sequence to reset the combo but any change key should come with detailed instructions.
Did you tell the guy you sold the safe to that you had an override code and so does the disgruntled employee that knows your address that he fired last month?
I bought a medium mechanical safe at a flea market in the 80's for $15 because they had no combo for it I took it to a lock smith and they charged me $75 to open it. I was curious as to how they did that so I started looking into it. I removed a panel on the inside of the door and saw the inner workings. I played around with it and watched what was going on....I also taught myself how to gain entry to mechanical a safe and tested what I learned a couple times for proof of concept. I also changed the combo on my safe to one I only knew. I would prefer a mechanical safe over an electronic one.
Very informative video. At the risk of putting you on the spot (so to speak), do you have any experience with Big Red locks? Specifically, are you able to comment on their longevity test videos where they supposedly outlast S&G locks by a significant amount? Looking at replacing a S&G 6741 with something better.
Very good primer on how these things work. Personally, for this very reason, I've always gone with mechanical locks, and manually change the tumbler myself. Anything electronic can be easily defeated, one way or another. The whole point of a safe is if you dont have the combination, you'll have to resort to *destructive* means of entry, making it quite obviius that the integrity has been breached. It's not just Liberty, but his lock was an S&G (Sergeant & Greenleaf).
Adding on to what was said in the video: Page 8 of the Liberty Safe owner's manual states (revision 1.3.17) "... As part of our continuing service, a record of your combination by serial number is kept on file at Liberty Safe. If you lose your combination it can be restored to you for a $25 research fee provided you have informed Liberty Safe of any combination changes and you have met the documentation requirements." It is repeated again on page 16 in that same manual "...a record of your combination by serial number is kept on file." No, I'm not at all defending them giving it out like they did. Only pointing out that they disclose keeping a record of combinations (as shipped) matched to the safe's serial number. Yes, I'm one of those freaks who read owner's manuals. 😂
Keeping a code on file for emergency use or situations is completely different than giving that same code to law enforcement without a specific warrant for it… any warrant MUST list the safe on the warrant to be able to gain access, a warrant to search a house is not a warrant for a safe even if it’s in that same house…
But was liberty named in the warrant for the combination if not liberty should have told the feds to go pound sand till said warrant was issued and even then I’m pretty sure a good lawyer which I’m sure liberty has could tell them To pound sand even more.
What you stated was YOUR Combo and not the backdoor one. Your combo keep is just a service to you but giving out the backdoor combo without it being specifically stated in the warrant I feel is a different matter
@@TheFrogfeederEven if there was a warrant to search the safe, liberty didn’t need to give them the code. Just say fine I am not stopping you. If there was a subpoena for the code, then legally they need to comply.
ALL locks are simply to keep HONEST people honest……PERIOD! Criminals (private or governmental) CAN AND WILL always be able to defeat ANY lock legally….or otherwise.
I don’t know a whole lot of honest people who go around checking car doors or checking house/apartment doors to see if they are unlocked for opportunistic burglary. Not once has an honest person tried the handle on my front door. Does that happen to you a lot? Where I live, such people are called “thieves”. “Locks only keep honest people out” is the most ignorant cliche out there. A lock doesn’t have to keep someone out forever. The lock (and other reinforcements) on a house door need only keep someone out for the few seconds it takes the resident to get to a gun. The lock on a gun safe need only keep people out for the few minutes it takes the alarm system to get the police there. If the feds show up with a warrant, let them enter the safe destructively - if there turns out to be cause to challenge the legality of the search, I wouldnt want any signs I had have consented to it, I’d want pictures of obvious destructive entry. Same goes for a burglary, I wouldn’t want “entered through unlocked door” in the police report.
Your show is a perfect example of why if you want more security, you do the electronic design yourself. On the other hand, it doesn't negate the rest of the security exploits of the safe.
I blame the federal judge who issued the warrant, and the FBI for requesting and serving it. Why are people blaming the safe company, but giving the tyrannical government no shade?
the subpoena, from my understanding, did NOT include the safe company. They just happily handed over the codes without documentation aka warrant nor subpoena. Owned by Mononoy Capital who donated $400,000 do Dems the past year alone.
EXACTLY what we should be talking about. Americans have the right to throw out our elected officials, if we want to. THEY are not kings ruling over us. Jan 6th should be a NEW national Holiday. Rise up America Day, or take Back America day.
Nice, informative video. My electronic lock just failed. It was 7 years old and the keypad went bad. I was locked out of my safe until I got a loaner keypad from Securam (they were very helpful!) and got it open. I've lost confidence now and am having a new manual lock installed. No more batteries, master codes or unreasonable life spans.
It doesn’t matter if the FBI or whoever are going to get in regardless, it’s the fact that Liberty gave up the master code to them with complete disregard for the owner privacy.
I am too broke to buy a brand new safe so my plan has been to find a old safe and get a new lock for it. Between learning about what liberty safe did, the video Deviant Olam posted and this video, my decisions reinforced. Only thing that changed is now I will be getting a mechanical dial lock instead of a electronic lock. However, I have learned I don’t want to cheap out on the lock. I’m going to get one with tighter tolerances to make any auto-dialer take as long as possible to crack the code. I may not have the ability to get help from the manufacturer if I end up locked out of my own safe but I will have the security I want.
Many insurance rated safes (aka a insurance company will write a policy for the contents) are available used relatively inexpensively. They’ll usually have a UL rating like TL-15 or TR-60. Those safes are ‘the real deal’, and also very heavy. As in, where a typical Liberty safe might be 600 lbs for a given large size, these would likely be 1.5 tons. Many of those can take two locks, so you could have a mechanical dial and a key, or a digital lock and a mechanical dial. Both could be locked at the same time, or it could be left ‘day locked’ with one left unlocked unless you decided to leave to go somewhere or something. Might be worth considering.
Yes if someone (whoever) wants to get in, that will happen. But one difference is, backdoor codes permit surreptitious entry. May be less of an issue nowadays as most information can be stored/protected electronically instead and there's likely the content where it is relevant. Though one may likely store a backup yubikey in the safe, but that's just one factor in a multifactor keying scheme.
Wayne, thanks for your experienced perspective on the subject of RSC locks. Please, either here in a perhaps a short vid, tell us more about the "keyed" lock you hold up near the end of this presentation. Again, thanks.
TLDW: Electronic safes have back doors. Mechanical locks only have one combo, and if you change it, then no one but you and your locksmith has the combo. Hint: If you change it yourself only you know it.
As a systems engineer I have everything old school. Learned very quickly to not trust anything electronics related be it a car, safe, storing you items in the cloud, anything in your home connected to the internet.
If you give up your freedoms to the guberment the guberment will make sure your freedom is secure. Just like if you give up your guns the police the police will protect you.
I got rid of my digital dial and had my safe company put on a mechanical dial, with a custom combination. It was around $300. I never trusted the digital dial. What most people don't understand is the digital dials use plastic drive gears. If the gears go your S.O.L. it's around $300-$500 to get a safe drilled and fixed, so a new dial for $300 is money well spent. I got the custom combination no charge with the dial installation as well.
I've seen professionals trying to get one of our safes open after the dial broke and it was only rated for 4 hours and it took them 2 days. The Government will get into it but in two days a lawyer could file an injunction or some other motion in court to stop the process. Just saying.
The tool for changing the mechanical lock combo is $7 and a 5 minute process. You don't need a locksmith. But also don't screw it up or you'll be paying a lot more to have the safe drilled... but if you do it yourself, then only you know the code. Also means you take full responsibility to not forget the code.. This is what I did. Burglary rated safe with Mechanical lock because 1: the mechanical lock will last longer than the electronics, and 2: no back doors. 3: Only I know the code.
A locked door keeps an HONEST person out. It seems like depending on the application of the safe, depends on the lock you should get. Ideally, there could be two locks one mechanical, one electronic. If you constantly need in an out of the safe, use an electronic. If however, it's used to store things in a semi-permanent state, use the mechanical. Having both would be ideal.
On mechanical locks, Liberty has the combination on file, if you change it they will not have it. They have the code for the electronic locks too. They do not have a master code that opens more than one lock. With that said, it wouldn't be a bad idea to change your locks, if anyone else has access to the combination to your safes, it is not secure.
Thankfully, my last Cannon safe had a defective electronic lock when I bought it at COSTCO, so the manufacturer agreed to replace the lock with a mechanical lock free of charge. As an aside, the safe is much more cheaply made than my first Cannon safe which actually is fabricated from thick steel plates.
I never knew that the stuff was available to swap out or anything like that. Glad to know this. Only way I'll buy a Liberty now is used and swap out the lock. Never going to buy their product, otherwise, now.
it deppends on the "scope" of the warrant. If what they were looking for listed on the search warrant could fit in the safe the safe is fair game to open any way they see fit.
The La Gard 2700 mechanical keyed combination safe lock personifies convenience, allowing the owner to quickly operate the lock and more importantly, change the key (combination) in seconds. It doesn't typically require a locksmith to change a standard mechanical dial combination. In fact new mechanical safes and vaults are typically supplied from the manufacturer, with a 'code change' key and instruction manual on how to change the default to a desired combination. No locksmith should be allowed to harvest/collect customers safe combinations. Locksmiths can't guarantee data security and thieves are renowned for taking advantage of inadequate data security measures. The most secure of safes are installed by their owners in undisclosed locations.
Thank you for the information. I will say I applaud you're not expressing a political opinion but also note that everybody cares about their personal liberty and threats to it.
I didn't even like the locksmith knowing my code... i learned how to change it myself. You better know for sure what you're doing before you try it though.
You don’t need a lock smith to change the combo on a mechanical lock. We did our own changes on our safes in the military. This kept the people who actually knew the combination to those who needed access.
I good friend suffered a stroke and had to be admitted to a convalescent hospital. He asked me to secure his gun safe because his home was being sold. Because of his brain damage, he couldn't remember the combination of the safe lock, which was a manual type. He had bought the safe from Liberty, and when I called them, that said they had the combination on file, but they would only give it in person to the original buyer. I went to the convalescent hospital, signed out my friend, drove him tho the safe store, he showed them his driver's license, and they gave him the combination. Later, when it became apparent he would never fully recover from the effects of his stroke, he sold me the safe and the 4 shotguns that were in it. I still have the safe, but I have changed the combination to the manual lock, so now not even Liberty has the combination now. I use that safe to store customer guns, so security is very important.
The only way keep your valuables safe at home is to fill your safe with bricks and put a game camera inside, then bury or hide your valuables elsewhere. Let them spend the time getting your vault open and then laugh at the looks the camera captures on their faces.
Good video, I think a lot of people just didn’t know how safes and locks work and were shocked how easy the feds got into this guys safe. But I think they would be equally shocked how easy is it to break into most gun safes. Safes at best just buy time for your alarm system to notify the police to respond. But that’s not going to help you if it’s the government trying to get in.
I just took my combo knob and shifted it 10 numbers. All I had to do was file the spindle down to fit the new position and JB Welded it to the spindle. Now, Even the manufacturers can't get in.
Great information to have - thorough and succinct. At least now I can get it back to the point where it was prior to Liberty opening the flood gate. Thanks Liberty - Eleven Hundred or so thank you's!!
Not sure I agree with your last statement. Like you just previously said, a good mechanical lock, have the original combination changed, and you are doing pretty good.
![[1209] This Tiny WiFi Camera Owns Kwikset SmartKey (LockTech LTKSD)](/img/1.gif)
Here’s the issue: the FBI had a warrant only for certain parts of the building and had NO Authority under warrant or otherwise to open the safe. They were given the master code by Liberty Safe without a court ordered subpoena (major strike against Liberty Safe), and the FBI opened the safe by deceit which is also illegal.
So the law says that since the FBI opened the safe without a warrant, they can not use ANY evidence they found in the safe, or information contained in the safe that was used to acquire other evidence.
Both are in hot water here.
I don't see how this wasn't a 4th amendment violation
@@Seasniffer69 exactly correct. Aided and abetted by Liberty Safe, who can now be sued civilly for providing access to a person’s private property without any authority to do so.
Maybe if as you stated is correct. Judges have ways of helping law enforcement out by keeping evidence in the trial. As I heard it the warrent covered locked boxes. Normally an underlying warrent would be required for a safe.
Even if the warrent covers the safe, the warrent could be thrown out due to legal issues. The prosecutor will argue that the safes contents were lawfully obtained with 3rd party information. They want this treated like tech companies handling over data. They don't want it handling to where a separate warrent or subpoena is required as precedence with cell phones and cloud storage shows.
It is amazing how far the courts, law enforcement, and prosecutors have strayed from the plain text of The Constitution.
@@tim18wheels76 you make a good point here. Biased judges do have a tendency to “bend the law” more than unbiased judges. And it would not be the first time a judge used creative reasoning to justify allowing evidence that would otherwise be considered the “fruit of the poisonous tree” as attorneys refer to it.
It has nothing to do with the safe eventually being opened. It has to do with Liberty Safe handing out the access without any compulsion.
Boycott to bankruptcy
yep. if they can grab a code then it's open in minutes but if they have to cut it then there's half a chance my lawyer gets there.
@@billynomates920 What is a lawyer going to do?
The FBI would have a court order warrant, therefore your atty is useless @@billynomates920
@@bryanb3352 As an officer of the court. The lawyer can ensure things like they don't plant evidence in the safe, that their warrant is valid, that they only seize things in the warrant. Cops no not want your lawyer there.
Libery's willingness to make it easy, defeats the entire purpose of owning a safe. Shame on Liberty.
I agree 💯
While I agree, I also recognize that the FBI was going to get in that safe one way or the other. My real beef with Liberty is that they used profits gained primarily from firearms owners to support and elect extreme anti second amendment candidates. I think that Liberty has been caught going full Bud Lite and within a year will cease to exist.
I say shame on the Biden administration and their corruption of the Dept. of Justice. Twelve or ?? cars stuffed full of FBI agents armed to the teeth to arrest a guy for peacefully protesting the illegal corrupt election at the Capital on January 6,2020 ?? Their message is/was quite clear. Don't mess with the Democrats re: their corrupt doings on elections. And also to fire yet another shot across Donald Trump's bow. SICK, SICK, SICK !!!
If the govt has a warrant to get into your safe, they're going to get into your safe. I understand the frustration with the company, but in practice has anything really changed other than your safe doesn't get destroyed?
@@SHREDTILLDEAD Why does it matter? If they want to get into it, they'll get into it regardless. What is your argument? Feelings aren't an argument.
…And just like that, the Feds killed the electronic lock market. 🤣🤣🤣
True, but in the long run they'll sell many more safes since they'll only wind up cutting the safe open to get what they want anyway.
Yep
If you have a mechanical lock, the first thing you do is set the combination so that you are the only person who knows the combination. You don't need a technician to change the combination - just a key or tool the turn and start the process of changing the combination. Small tip - make sure you can lock and unlock your safe door a few times with the door OPEN so that you don't accidentally lock yourself out.
Absolutely agree 100% !
Hat off to you sir' 👍!
Yeah.. make them cut into it! You show them!
Bingo.
If you (speaking genericly) buy a safe that you cannot lock out the manufacture by changing the code or combinaiton, then YOU are your own problem.
or you can use a microprocessor like a cheap ATmega in between the keypad and the lock to filter out any password that doesn't mach yours.
@bryanb3352 Precisely. Make them cut into the safe.
All owners should file a class action lawsuit to force them to buy back and cover cost of the return their products
They would all be dismissed on "Standing."
Their products are no longer secure like they were told.
Dumb owners would not win a lawsuit.
They don't even know enough not to buy a safe that doesn't allow them to lock out the manufacture by changing the code or combination.
@@patrickfaricy5741 Any safe can be opened without any code or key.
The only question is whether or not you want a usable safe afterwards.
If you do want it to remain usable, then giving the govt the code when they have a warrant is your best bet.
I’m all for that. We’re do I get on that list?
The thing that bothers me most about all this mess is that I wonder why the FBI thinks it has a reason to open a safe of a man they wanted arrested for protesting but not entering the capital on Jan 6th. There is not one reason.
Because they serve the god of this world
People need to understand that they don't work for the people. They work for the elites, but the people pay their salaries.
The FBI is corrupt.
The thing that bothers me most about all this mess is that you can get arrested for protesting. The right to petition is a First Amendment right. When the first fails it is time to move onto the Second. That's what the Founding Fathers said we should do. At this point the government is abdicating their authority by not fulfilling their own sworn duty.
@@1pcfred
Yes, we've seen this in WW2 Germany era.... Orwell warned us this is going to happen again.
SHAME ON LIBERTY.
When Apple makes a better privacy decision than a sAfE company.
Except that the FBI didn't destroy the safe in order to get into it..... which we all know that it would have happened if they didn't get the backdoor code.
That should be the owner's and costumer's call to make not liberty safe, tell them to get the owner's permission or court order. And Wayne when some one looks up Liberty safe your pic should be beside it, did you say just if the FBI hires you, no court order, that you would just open the safe@@Rich22C
@@Rich22Cthat’s up to the end user to decide.
FLS
Several legal experts said Liberty Safe was under no obligation to hand over the code because the safe was not company property and the company was not the target of the search warrant.
I don't know the details, but the reverse should be true. For Lib to not give the code could be charged as obstruction, if it is proven that Lib actually has the code. On the other hand IF Lib was the target of the investigation (the defendant), then the company would be protected under the 5th amendment and not legally required to produce the code since a code is a "product of the mind."
Of course. This is exactly why people are pissed at liberty. They rolled over to the federal government when they had NO legal reason they had to.
@@viralsheddingzombie5324I don’t think you understand obstruction. They had zero obligation to give the code. Also, there was no warrant for the contents of the safe.
@@viralsheddingzombie5324 thing is , none of the court warrants had anything to do with liberty. they were under 0 obligation to even talk to the fbi .. they gave their business up for nothing.
Lis is not LAW and Order, It works different in the real world.
As a lock smith you know there is no "override" for a manual lock, so you absolutely know liberty gave away a code to a digital lock.
As stated in this video, he said that generally, safes ship with a set combination which is documented at the factory. As stated in the video, generally, when people buy a combination safe, they do not pay for a locksmith to come change the combination on their shiny new safe. As stated in the video, it would be possible to give away the documented combination that they keep records of.
Guess again... with certain designs of mechanical locks, they CAN have a 'master code' that overrides them.
@@christopherkidwell9817yeah. Only place to keep your 'real valuables' is in a creative hiding place.... that you can remember.
That is possible. I haven't been a locksmith for many years but would like to know if such a lock exist. Model and make? Thanks!@@christopherkidwell9817
@@christopherkidwell9817 What design, manufacturer and model number of lock would that be? I certainly can't think of one and I've been a safe tech for over a decade. Just asking.
There should not be any back door to a safe lock. That’s what the consumer pays for, SECURITY! Make the person or entity that is breaking into to your safe work for it. The more difficult it is for them the better.
To be the Devils advocate, I worked for Diebold and would change combinations on bank vaults. They would have a system that took two people to open the vault. The Bank Manger had half, the tellers would have the other. I get a frantic call the next day that the teller called in sick and left her combo in the vault. They wanted to know if I had written it down or remember what it was. NOPE, I never write it down except for your combo card. Nor would I ever admit to knowing the entire combo to a vault hold 10's of thousands of $$$$. That would put a target on my back. I was able to go in with an installer code and create a new user. Always tell them I can only create users not open it. Of course I could create my own, but I have fear of going to jail. So yes sometimes back door is necessary. Unless a private citizen requests it I agree with you. This video is the best answer, mechanical lock and change the combo, you can even go to a 1 number combo if you want in in a hurry.
You can break into most consumer safes with a circular saw. You can cut them right in half. If it is a heavier safe you might need a plasma cutter.
The costumer pay for "security" when they opt for a more convinient option, more convinient = less secure
@@1pcfred I realize that, so make them work for it.
@RayRay-zc2ed Absolutely correct and that's what these safe companies have been selling to people this entire time. Now we find out it's been an intentional lie of omission this entire time. I want everything associated with this industry burned to the ground and looted of any valuables. Not one person on Earth has ever bought a safe with the desire that there be two or three other "override" codes that could open their safes, NOT ONE!
You have confirmed my long time belief that a mechanical dial Lock is the best route!
yup. I would never but a safe with an electronic lock. Except maybe something small that you want to access quickly if needed. Not to store a bunch of guys or whatever though
Think about that. As the man said, if they want in.......they are going to get in. That means REGARDLESS of what kind of lock you have on a safe. I say keep your electronic lock for the convenience of it. I am keeping my S&G !
@@larkinoo Nope I agree with the OP on this one. the old technology is more secure than the new based on this story alone. If you are willing to be less secure for convenience that is on you.
You make my decision to keep my S&G electronic lock sound so foreboding. If you choose a dial lock over an electronic one I say to each their own. I doubt I will ever be put into the same situation as the guy that got raided by the FBI, for protesting an election was it ?? Welcome to The Banana Republic of the United { ??? } States !@@Stubbies2003
The main issues is Liberty gave up the code without a court order. A warrant is not enough to give up a customer of Liberty’s information.
A warrant IS a court order.
Well you really need to clarify that statement. I know what you meant but it reads ambiguously. The warrant the FBI had against the owner of the safe isn't enough for liberty to roll over like they did. If that warrant had been against liberty directly for the code then yes it would be.
@@Stubbies2003 But Liberty only provided to the FBI a master code it created, that applies to thousands of safes. The defendant did not own the master code. The real question is whether the gov. acted legally.
@@viralsheddingzombie5324 not one that would be enforceable against a third party (liberty safe) they need to be broke and in the gutter this.
@@Stubbies2003subpoena from a judge, not an additional warrant.
You're a master technician Wayne, and we appreciate your bias about privacy rights. Once the safe is property of the purchaser/owner, when manufacturer (or technician) violates those rights by volunteering 'backdoor' or any other form of unauthorised entry of property - this breaks more than just a legal or moral social contract. If manufacture like Liberty safes don't safeguard our liberty - they should suffer the consequences. Likewise if any 'technician' is willing to 'contract' to open a safe without owners authorization - they too violate the same legal and moral contracts.
id be interested to know what is in the paperwork when buying one. It has to be breach of contract unless it explicitly says they keep these codes.
What Ol’ Wayne, the “Master Locksmith” doesn’t seem to grasp… is that if the GUB-MENT wants to get into your safe, they will CUT IT OPEN!
I figure the FBI threatened to 'Blackmail' Liberty Safe, if they didn't comply. (Dirty S.O.B.s)
And if Liberty didn't give the code, they would have cut it open.
@@dand7772 Apologists makes excuses about cracking the safe, we're concerned about safeguarding our iberty. The two are not the same.
I totally get what you're saying, and I agree. The FBI, ATF, DOJ or ??? will not be stopped by a safe, regardless of the lock. But where Liberty erred is in rolling over and making it incredibly easy for them... To me, as a consumer, that makes them untrustworthy. Liberty's primary objective should be the security of their customers' property. They should defend that objective vigorously.
And if Liberty didn't give the code, they would have cut it open. Safe destroyed.
Removing the serial number(s) from your safe seems to be the easiest way to prevent this from happening.
Id remove the serial #'s from where ever they are located and then make a fake serial # sticker. That way it can at least keep someone busy spinning their wheels awhile.
Not if they have a master code that works on all locks. Not saying that's the case here, but I wouldn't put it past these greedy corporations.
@@wfkvr6 Thats not how the master code works. Its a digital lock so thus they have a master code to go with each serial #.
@@famousamoso7 not entirely true.
think hotel/motel they have a master key that opens every single room.
with a digital lock, it is quite easy to have a master code that will unlock every single safe regardless of serial number. it is actually easier and cheaper to do this than to have a serial generator that has one for each and every safe. which not only needs a specific code, but also a secure storage location, both in digital *AND* in physical.
@famousamoso7 You are making a reasonable assumption, but still an assumption. You are assuming that the manager key on these locks were set differently based on the serial number. The lock sets Liberty is using has 2 codes, the user and the manager. They don't even acknowledge the manager key in their documentation, but if you go to the lock manufacturer, it's in their manual. So as long as Liberty set a different manager key per serial number, then you would be correct. I am not giving Liberty any credit, seeing how easy they rolled over.
Yes, shame on Liberty Safe. I just bought one last year. Took possession of said safe mid 2023. Being the local distributor was my local locksmith , at no charge, they changed my combo lock from electronic to a manual dial type lock at my request. The combination is known by me and me alone. You are totally correct, Wayne. Thank you for the video.
If you lose your combination, you are out of luck.
@dand7772
No, you're not.
SO what do you do other than contact the company ?@@overwatch2671
Given the politicization of the FBI and other law enforcing agencies, it is not beyond them to open such safe and plant an incriminating artifact in it. Being able to open the safe with no external evidence takes away the ability of the owner to defend themselves in court against such likely abuse.
And Wayne's definitely right about the fact that security is an illusion. That is the case not just with safes but with anything else.
Why do they have to plant the evidence in the safe? They can toss it on the floor. They can make you hold it so it has your prints on it. They can say they found it while conducting a full cavity search. Maybe them finding it in the safe isn't so bad after all?
And, the 'planting of evidence' IS not only in the FBI's bag of UNCONSTITUTIONAL trickery, it IS taught to each and every law enforcement agency in the country, as part of the "assistance' and policy that the FBI provides these smaller agencies.
@@1pcfred Even with a warrant/subpoena, the owner or any non-government witness aren't going to be there and they aren't going to film it. Even if they did film it, nothing would stop them from re-enacting it and deleting the first take. If you are worried about the FBI, or whoever, the best choice is not to produce the evidence in the first place, second immediate destruction, third auto destroy trigger. After that, everything is just building a case against you. Best keep it somewhere people will never look because they are getting in that safe, even if it takes weeks to grind through it.
@@1pcfred I'll grant you that it would indeed be better if they plant the pistol in my safe than in any of my cavities.
The FBI isn’t politicized.
In the near future I plan on buying an expensive safe or two. It won’t be a liberty safe and now it won’t be a digital one either.
If the company has override codes, employees have override codes.
JUST LIKE GOOGLE, RUclips, FACEBOOK, ...
But not Apple, apparently.
DOMINION
Any safe only slows someone down. Given unlimited time, money, and resources, any safe will be breached. But the goal is to actually make it difficult.
Liberty made it easy...Thus, they became 'The unsafe safe"...(although PROBABLY not fair, they earned it.)
To be completely fair, they (Liberty/FBI) have probably done this many times before, but not for this type of arrest, and not as widely publicized.
Great lesson on locks by the way. Thank you.
im sure it gets done way more often but as you said this just was a highly publicized event.
They publicize and tell you to your face that someone can always physically break in given enough time, what they don't tell you is the combination part isn't real and that they program in other codes other than yours so that anyone who can get access to those codes (not YOUR code) can also get into your safe including basically anyone at their company or at the lock company or a locksmith or any random that gets access to that info. They don't advertise that your lock is basically worthless because of them or the manufacturer of the locks have backdoor access. No one would have bought a safe knowing that.
@@michaelrudolph7003 actually lots of people have known that. Those that didn’t just lack common sense and the ability to research their safe.
And if Liberty didn't give the code, they would have cut it open. Safe destroyed.
The Liberty press release said that they process about 4000 requests for the backdoor passcode each year----when owner forgets his code, for if owner dies and estate requires safe entry, and for law enforcement requests, etc.. They claim they insist that a search warrant "for the owner's property" be presented to them My problem is that Liberty no longer owns the safe, so the search warrant is not being served on them. A subpoena duces tecum is the document which Liberty should require, and they now claim to have revised their policy to require such. They also will expunge the backdoor passcode from their records upon request---go to their website to start the process. Obviously, this will NOT remove the backdoor passcode. Removing the SN from the lock and safe would also make it harder to find which backdoor passcode to use.
It doesn't matter if the FBI would have breached the safe no matter what. The issue was about Liberty handing over a master code without any legal subpoena directed at them.
100%
I’m an IT security architect with a 40 year tech career and a good base in electronics engineering/design security AND a good background in lock picking. I also am a hobby coder. Knowing all that my safes are all old school dial combinations and I use the reset key and changed my combo on them all. My digital and lock background had already told me an electronic lock has a back door. All software has a back door for the creator.
When my dad was alive he insisted on dial safes as well not trusting electronic locks from being jammed to open with devices (also a possibility) or some kinda EMP.
I think that what is missing from this conversation is that once they had a valid search warrant they had access to the safe. The only question was whether they accessed the safe destructively or nondestructively. After all just because it says 'gun safe' on the outside doesn't mean anything to law enforcement about what else might be inside of it. Just because you bought an expensive gun safe does not mean that law enforcement with a valid warrent is going to say 'oh well, a safe, nothing we can do'.
The real issue isn't whether or not the government can get into the safe. The real issue arises in cases where your safe is searched illegally. As Runkle of the Bailey, a firearms defense attorney, pointed out, it will be difficult for you to claim you didn't give them permission and access to the safe if they didn't have to cut it open.
The burden of proof is on the prosecution. All you have to do is say you didn't. They have to prove that is false. Runkle is a lousy attorney.
@@1pcfredwhat you said is correct. You don't have to prove Jack. The prosecution does
@@DynastyOmens while the defense doesn't have to prove anything proving things can strengthen a case. Presenting carefully crafted logical arguments can certainly help too. The obvious thing here is why would anyone grant access if they knew there was contraband to be found. If it's yours and you put it in the safe there's no way you'd just open the safe. Not unless you were really goofy. So it is obvious they forced entry. No great mental gymnastics are needed to reach this conclusion.
he is canadian. different rules there dum dum, @@1pcfred
This just confirms what I already thought.
Mechanical dials are more secure by only having a single entry code, and no override code. And the mechanical dial can be changed once and then suddenly no one at the company knows the number.
I swapped out an electric keypad lock for a mechanical dial. However, none of the holes lined up, no screw holes, ect. I had to weld new bars and bend into shape some of the linkage inside the mechanism, and drill and tap new holes to line everything up. Totally worth it. My keypad was dying and would just stop working at random, and a new keypad would probably eventually die as well.
You ought to put out a primer on how to do the change.
You're comparing apples to oranges. The FBI had a warrant. You don't service your customers with warrants. Furthermore, the warrant was for the individual. Liberty was NOT obligated or compelled to give them anything, but they did anyway.
They maybe under US government contract. Very common for there to be must aid law enforcement agreements stuck in Government contracts.
That's even worse. Like social media companies being exposed working for governments
@@zed4229 Which means nothing when the safe and owner have nothing to do with the contract.
Do you have to be obligated or compelled to do everything? The FBI was getting into that safe. I mean it wasn't like the cops were going to show up to stop them. If everything works out the customer will still have their safe and it'll still be functional too.
@@1pcfredIf they break into it by force, and it turns out they had no right they have to replace it. Makes a pretty compelling reason to "risk" destroying your safe
Nice work, Wayne! I spent a number of years as a locksmith and also did a fair share of safe work. As you say, there is not one that will stay closed once the legal process to get into it is working.
When I would replace a lock or repair one, I always recommended mechanical ones. I would take the time to show the owner how to change their combination for themselves if they could demonstrate to me that they could do it. I tried to avoid setting a new combination that *I* made up. If I did make up a combination I would write it down for them and watch them correctly operate it several times. But my preference was to have them use the proper tool or key and set heir own combination that even I would not know. Before I cut them loose to do that, I would always make sure they had the process of combination change down pat and could do it.
I'm amazed how many people think a search warrant isn't a sufficient legal document. If there is a search warrant for John Doe's house, and the house is locked, nobody has to wait for yet another document saying law enforcement can use physical force to get into the house. The mere issuance of the search warrant means when the cops come either the owner can step out of the way and let them in OR they can force their way in the house immediately even if they have to break things like locks and doors. Same applies if a safe or other locked container is part of a search warrant. Nothing else is required.
I have been wondering for years whether a mechanical or electronic lock would be better and you answered my question. Thanks.
@rebeccabirchfield5908 I personally would go mechanical. EXCEPT if it's a safe containing a self defense weapon to which immediate access may be required. Otherwise I'm going mechanical and setting the combination myself.
Glad you shared information. I knew when electronic locks first came out, they were vulnerable. Nothing like a good old-fashioned combination or key lock except for a combination(s) and key(s) lock.
@@maxsoregon I doubt it's EMP proof. Bet you a hundred bucks I could fry the thing with a simple off-the-shelf components based EMP device using wire antennas and capacitors
@@MiniDevilDFExactly;unless you personally install a faraday cage over your electronic Sargeant & Greenleaf combination lock,an EMP or a CME will fry it.The EMP and CME hardened electronic combination locks;costs more than a Liberty Safe costs which is tens of thousands of dollars,which means that only the wealthy elites can afford them.
Owned by a company that donates money almost exclusively to democrats with the exception of a small donation in 2012 to republicans
Good.
One of the big issues in my opinion is the lack of transparency of the safe/lock manufacturers about the presence of backdoors in their products. It should be way more obvious so users can make informed decisions.
Mechanical locks are the best option to prevent illegal entry, but no safe can prevent legal entry. If not via the lock, its via a angle grinder.
Of course but the point is to not be an easy mark. It is the difference between someone who locks their car doors and someone who doesn't. Same situation. The car door lock isn't going to prevent entry but it is going to dissuade the laziest of thieves. It is up to individuals to pick their level of dissuasion to unauthorized entry. Not up to liberty.
or thermal lance
Good video and explanation. Though I don't know that I agree with your premise that "security is an illusion". I do agree that nothing is "secure". But in my opinion security is not an illusion, but a tactic and a deterring / delaying one at that. How much of a delay / deterrent is it, and is it enough to achieve your goals is the question.
As an example, a locked front door may be enough to deter someone from entering your house. But it will not deter everyone. A locked front door will just delay another person's entry long enough for them to find a window to break. "Security" is about deterring enough a percentage of people willing to challenge your defenses that attempts become infrequent and that the layers provide enough of a delay for an credible attempt to be noticed and action taken.
Anything that is made by humans can be defeated by humans 😊
Security only buys time, not peace of mind
Yes. Just like "locking" your cars but wont impede a criminal from throwing a stone thru your window and stealing stuff inside like clockwork in San Francisco.
Security is mostly theater. You might prefer that wording. It's performative and mostly only keeps honest people honest and deters lazy dishonest people.
A grinder is always the backdoor entry method hovering about.
Liberty makes Apple look like saints when they told the feds no.
I was worried about this very sort of thing when I ordered my safe, which is why I ordered it with a mechanical lock. However, upon delivery the driver informed me they were all out of the safes with the mechanical lock & they were on delayed backorder. He offered me a free "upgrade" to an electronic lock & I agreed. Wish Id have waited, or better yet, ordered my safe from a more reputable manufacturer than Liberty. At the time, they were well respected. They've definitely lost a client.
Buy a new lock. They aren't that expensive and you can put it in yourself in an hour or so. I did mine and it wasn't hard.
@@SW0000A looking into that now. Thanks for the info.
@@sofloflow there are good videos on RUclips to help install. Securam has an install video.
If you hav a Liberty safe with electronic lock, you can change the Supermaster combo yourself which would mean Liberty wouldnt know it and couldnt help anyone open your safe. Yes, there are ways to still force your way in, but that helps you in court if the go that route. All these locks have a factory default combo for user andcfor super user- find out your models default, open your safe, access the back side of your lock and perform a reset, then follow procedures to set a new super and user combo.
Main point, locks, like any other barrier (Great Wall of China, Maginot Line, etcetera) can be circumvented. A federal/local police agency, or criminal, sees a safe during a search, they’re going to want to get at the contents. Usually for the same reasons. The lock only prolongs the inevitable. Wayne, your point about convenience is what’s really at the heart of our “personal security/privacy” problem. We now have cell phones, laptops, tablets, and even watches that provide convenience during everyday life. But these tools are a two way street. In the modern world, it’s becoming more difficult to go through life without being connected, and open to having your information collected. Security from a safe, bank code, password, etcetera, is a false premise. Awesome and informative video.
There's an old adage that says "Locks only keep honest people out." What does that say about the FBI?
@@freddieh5539 I was tempted to state that quote, but refrained.
The point of ANY lock, is to deley the entry long enough to discourage anyone from doing it or increase chance to get caught.
That's why you go all Matryoshka safe, they crack the outer single combo lock safe and find some fondag or similar anchoring in a slightly smaller dual-lock safe, then inside that another safe all through bolt anchored to the floor.
Preferably starting with a TRTL-30x6 rated safe, holding a TRTL-60x6 inner safe, ... in other words they will still get in but make it as frustrating and time consuming as possible
I cracked my first safe this week.
With advice from lock Smith.
We had the number but would not open.
His suggestion.... hit with mallet, dial , hit , dial and so on.
And yes it opened. I feel very happy.
Well said buddy. 👍🏽
The Locksmith Company
Knoxville,TN
the Securam lock on Liberty safes has a mechanical reset option. no need to buy another lock, just reset both codes.
This was AMAZING... thank you for sharing your knowledge!
Absolutely
Very informative brother! Let’s stop this tyranny! WE THE PEOPLE!!!🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
I'm currently researching safes for an upgrade and Liberty is 100% out of the question and I will be disposing of my old Liberty safe at some point. I've been looking at the Rhino Metals IWT7242X (Good to hear that they slow walk the override code/combo process) with the standard dial lock. Now I am contemplating having a locksmith replace the dial after installation and then having another locksmith replace that one..
I have a rhino safe. The keypad went out. For security reasons, they were very through to insure I was the owner. I had to provide the original sales receipt. I kept the original receipt as per their instruction when I purchased the safe. They will give you written instructions to change the master and user codes. VERY happy with my Rhino!
@@royroberts3485 Excellent information - The purchase will be a Rhino Metals safe - Thanks again!
"Brown Safe"
You can buy a change key that is designed for your brand of mechanical lock and change it yourself. I did that with an American Security safe and it worked great but you have to follow the directions exactly as they are written, it's not complicated but if you screw it up you will need to hire a locksmith to fix it and it will likely cost more that had you hired one to change the combination without trying it yourself. If you get it right you save some money by doing it yourself and you are the only one who will know the combination. The important thing to remember is that there are two lines on the lock's bezel, one for regular opening and the other to change the combination and you must use a certain sequence to reset the combo but any change key should come with detailed instructions.
Did you tell the guy you sold the safe to that you had an override code and so does the disgruntled employee that knows your address that he fired last month?
I bought a medium mechanical safe at a flea market in the 80's for $15 because they had no combo for it
I took it to a lock smith and they charged me $75 to open it.
I was curious as to how they did that so I started looking into it.
I removed a panel on the inside of the door and saw the inner workings.
I played around with it and watched what was going on....I also taught myself how to gain entry to mechanical a safe and tested what I learned a couple times for proof of concept. I also changed the combo on my safe to one I only knew.
I would prefer a mechanical safe over an electronic one.
Very informative video. At the risk of putting you on the spot (so to speak), do you have any experience with Big Red locks? Specifically, are you able to comment on their longevity test videos where they supposedly outlast S&G locks by a significant amount? Looking at replacing a S&G 6741 with something better.
I use big red
Very good primer on how these things work. Personally, for this very reason, I've always gone with mechanical locks, and manually change the tumbler myself. Anything electronic can be easily defeated, one way or another. The whole point of a safe is if you dont have the combination, you'll have to resort to *destructive* means of entry, making it quite obviius that the integrity has been breached. It's not just Liberty, but his lock was an S&G (Sergeant & Greenleaf).
Adding on to what was said in the video: Page 8 of the Liberty Safe owner's manual states (revision 1.3.17) "... As part of our continuing service, a record of your combination by serial number is kept on file at Liberty Safe. If you lose your combination it can be restored to you for a $25 research fee provided you have informed Liberty Safe of any combination changes and you have met the documentation requirements." It is repeated again on page 16 in that same manual "...a record of your combination by serial number is kept on file."
No, I'm not at all defending them giving it out like they did. Only pointing out that they disclose keeping a record of combinations (as shipped) matched to the safe's serial number. Yes, I'm one of those freaks who read owner's manuals. 😂
Keeping a code on file for emergency use or situations is completely different than giving that same code to law enforcement without a specific warrant for it… any warrant MUST list the safe on the warrant to be able to gain access, a warrant to search a house is not a warrant for a safe even if it’s in that same house…
But was liberty named in the warrant for the combination if not liberty should have told the feds to go pound sand till said warrant was issued and even then I’m pretty sure a good lawyer which I’m sure liberty has could tell them
To pound sand even more.
What you stated was YOUR Combo and not the backdoor one. Your combo keep is just a service to you but giving out the backdoor combo without it being specifically stated in the warrant I feel is a different matter
Thank you for the reasonable response.
Many comments are very unreasonable.
@@TheFrogfeederEven if there was a warrant to search the safe, liberty didn’t need to give them the code. Just say fine I am not stopping you. If there was a subpoena for the code, then legally they need to comply.
For several reasons (including EMP) I would only buy a mechanical lock and change the combination.
ALL locks are simply to keep HONEST people honest……PERIOD!
Criminals (private or governmental) CAN AND WILL always be able to defeat ANY lock legally….or otherwise.
I don’t know a whole lot of honest people who go around checking car doors or checking house/apartment doors to see if they are unlocked for opportunistic burglary. Not once has an honest person tried the handle on my front door. Does that happen to you a lot? Where I live, such people are called “thieves”.
“Locks only keep honest people out” is the most ignorant cliche out there. A lock doesn’t have to keep someone out forever. The lock (and other reinforcements) on a house door need only keep someone out for the few seconds it takes the resident to get to a gun. The lock on a gun safe need only keep people out for the few minutes it takes the alarm system to get the police there. If the feds show up with a warrant, let them enter the safe destructively - if there turns out to be cause to challenge the legality of the search, I wouldnt want any signs I had have consented to it, I’d want pictures of obvious destructive entry. Same goes for a burglary, I wouldn’t want “entered through unlocked door” in the police report.
Your show is a perfect example of why if you want more security, you do the electronic design yourself. On the other hand, it doesn't negate the rest of the security exploits of the safe.
I blame the federal judge who issued the warrant, and the FBI for requesting and serving it. Why are people blaming the safe company, but giving the tyrannical government no shade?
the subpoena, from my understanding, did NOT include the safe company. They just happily handed over the codes without documentation aka warrant nor subpoena. Owned by Mononoy Capital who donated $400,000 do Dems the past year alone.
Liberty Safe could tell them to Go Pound Sand. But they didn't. If Liberty Safe deny them access, the FBI is suppose to get a subpoena.
Liberty safe was under no obligation to give the code.
EXACTLY what we should be talking about. Americans have the right to throw out our elected officials, if we want to. THEY are not kings ruling over us. Jan 6th should be a NEW national Holiday. Rise up America Day, or take Back America day.
Nice, informative video. My electronic lock just failed. It was 7 years old and the keypad went bad. I was locked out of my safe until I got a loaner keypad from Securam (they were very helpful!) and got it open. I've lost confidence now and am having a new manual lock installed. No more batteries, master codes or unreasonable life spans.
Great Job Wayne, very clear explanation! Thank you. See you on NSO!
It doesn’t matter if the FBI or whoever are going to get in regardless, it’s the fact that Liberty gave up the master code to them with complete disregard for the owner privacy.
Great job Wayne. Useful info on the lock issue. I am glad you mentioned that if the Feds want in, they are getting in no matter what.
Absolutely
Interesting! Thank you for sharing your knowledge & expertise sir.
Got that early 90s gun safe with a dial and a changed code, best way to do it.
I am too broke to buy a brand new safe so my plan has been to find a old safe and get a new lock for it. Between learning about what liberty safe did, the video Deviant Olam posted and this video, my decisions reinforced. Only thing that changed is now I will be getting a mechanical dial lock instead of a electronic lock. However, I have learned I don’t want to cheap out on the lock. I’m going to get one with tighter tolerances to make any auto-dialer take as long as possible to crack the code. I may not have the ability to get help from the manufacturer if I end up locked out of my own safe but I will have the security I want.
Many insurance rated safes (aka a insurance company will write a policy for the contents) are available used relatively inexpensively. They’ll usually have a UL rating like TL-15 or TR-60.
Those safes are ‘the real deal’, and also very heavy. As in, where a typical Liberty safe might be 600 lbs for a given large size, these would likely be 1.5 tons.
Many of those can take two locks, so you could have a mechanical dial and a key, or a digital lock and a mechanical dial. Both could be locked at the same time, or it could be left ‘day locked’ with one left unlocked unless you decided to leave to go somewhere or something. Might be worth considering.
Yes if someone (whoever) wants to get in, that will happen. But one difference is, backdoor codes permit surreptitious entry. May be less of an issue nowadays as most information can be stored/protected electronically instead and there's likely the content where it is relevant. Though one may likely store a backup yubikey in the safe, but that's just one factor in a multifactor keying scheme.
Wayne, thanks for your experienced perspective on the subject of RSC locks. Please, either here in a perhaps a short vid, tell us more about the "keyed" lock you hold up near the end of this presentation. Again, thanks.
According to the lockpicking lawyer and Bosnian bill all you truly need is a earth magnet to make a electronic gun safe lock open
TLDW: Electronic safes have back doors. Mechanical locks only have one combo, and if you change it, then no one but you and your locksmith has the combo. Hint: If you change it yourself only you know it.
My Sargent & Greenleaf dial pack came with instructions to change the combination. I did so without any difficulty: no need to call a locksmith.
As a systems engineer I have everything old school. Learned very quickly to not trust anything electronics related be it a car, safe, storing you items in the cloud, anything in your home connected to the internet.
Kinda the way I feel about electronics in cars. When I had a car in the 70's it had roll down windows and no bells and whistles.
"Security is only an illusion" what a great quote
If you give up your freedoms to the guberment the guberment will make sure your freedom is secure. Just like if you give up your guns the police the police will protect you.
I got rid of my digital dial and had my safe company put on a mechanical dial, with a custom combination. It was around $300. I never trusted the digital dial. What most people don't understand is the digital dials use plastic drive gears. If the gears go your S.O.L. it's around $300-$500 to get a safe drilled and fixed, so a new dial for $300 is money well spent. I got the custom combination no charge with the dial installation as well.
I've seen professionals trying to get one of our safes open after the dial broke and it was only rated for 4 hours and it took them 2 days. The Government will get into it but in two days a lawyer could file an injunction or some other motion in court to stop the process. Just saying.
The tool for changing the mechanical lock combo is $7 and a 5 minute process. You don't need a locksmith. But also don't screw it up or you'll be paying a lot more to have the safe drilled... but if you do it yourself, then only you know the code. Also means you take full responsibility to not forget the code.. This is what I did. Burglary rated safe with Mechanical lock because 1: the mechanical lock will last longer than the electronics, and 2: no back doors. 3: Only I know the code.
The FBI using force to saw into a safe may have later implications in court.
I have a dual system, push button and key. Both work well.
A locked door keeps an HONEST person out.
It seems like depending on the application of the safe, depends on the lock you should get.
Ideally, there could be two locks one mechanical, one electronic. If you constantly need in an out of the safe, use an electronic. If however, it's used to store things in a semi-permanent state, use the mechanical. Having both would be ideal.
Also, would you rather the government destroy property, or take measures to keep the property intact?
On mechanical locks, Liberty has the combination on file, if you change it they will not have it.
They have the code for the electronic locks too.
They do not have a master code that opens more than one lock.
With that said, it wouldn't be a bad idea to change your locks, if anyone else has access to the combination to your safes, it is not secure.
Thankfully, my last Cannon safe had a defective electronic lock when I bought it at COSTCO, so the manufacturer agreed to replace the lock with a mechanical lock free of charge. As an aside, the safe is much more cheaply made than my first Cannon safe which actually is fabricated from thick steel plates.
I never knew that the stuff was available to swap out or anything like that. Glad to know this. Only way I'll buy a Liberty now is used and swap out the lock. Never going to buy their product, otherwise, now.
it deppends on the "scope" of the warrant. If what they were looking for listed on the search warrant could fit in the safe the safe is fair game to open any way they see fit.
When I was a kid, my father told me that locks were there to keep the honest people out.
your dad was smarter than everyone here put together.
How good are the keyed locks? A good picker can often pick fairly fast what are advertised to be "high security" locks with security pins.
Thanks, for the inside scoop, you’re a good man!
The La Gard 2700 mechanical keyed combination safe lock personifies convenience, allowing the owner to quickly operate the lock and more importantly, change the key (combination) in seconds. It doesn't typically require a locksmith to change a standard mechanical dial combination. In fact new mechanical safes and vaults are typically supplied from the manufacturer, with a 'code change' key and instruction manual on how to change the default to a desired combination. No locksmith should be allowed to harvest/collect customers safe combinations. Locksmiths can't guarantee data security and thieves are renowned for taking advantage of inadequate data security measures. The most secure of safes are installed by their owners in undisclosed locations.
Excellent vid and info. Static security is just a matter of time and tools to defeat.
i didnt watch the whole video..but what if you happen to unknowingly pick the same code as libertys passcode?
I have an older one with an S&G mechanical. I changed it myself. It’s very simple
Thanks for the information. Will order a new digit lock.
It’s not nonsense. It’s literally a corporation willingly giving access to ONE customer. That is ONE customer to many in all of OUR eyes.
The super-master code can ALSO be changed on most, if not all, of those electronic locks.
Your doing a good service by spreading good knowledge. Thanks .
I appreciate that!
Thank you for the information.
I will say I applaud you're not expressing a political opinion but also note that everybody cares about their personal liberty and threats to it.
Soo glad I bought Cabelas mechanical.
I didn't even like the locksmith knowing my code... i learned how to change it myself. You better know for sure what you're doing before you try it though.
You don’t need a lock smith to change the combo on a mechanical lock. We did our own changes on our safes in the military. This kept the people who actually knew the combination to those who needed access.
I good friend suffered a stroke and had to be admitted to a convalescent hospital. He asked me to secure his gun safe because his home was being sold. Because of his brain damage, he couldn't remember the combination of the safe lock, which was a manual type. He had bought the safe from Liberty, and when I called them, that said they had the combination on file, but they would only give it in person to the original buyer. I went to the convalescent hospital, signed out my friend, drove him tho the safe store, he showed them his driver's license, and they gave him the combination. Later, when it became apparent he would never fully recover from the effects of his stroke, he sold me the safe and the 4 shotguns that were in it. I still have the safe, but I have changed the combination to the manual lock, so now not even Liberty has the combination now. I use that safe to store customer guns, so security is very important.
The only way keep your valuables safe at home is to fill your safe with bricks and put a game camera inside, then bury or hide your valuables elsewhere. Let them spend the time getting your vault open and then laugh at the looks the camera captures on their faces.
Good video, I think a lot of people just didn’t know how safes and locks work and were shocked how easy the feds got into this guys safe. But I think they would be equally shocked how easy is it to break into most gun safes. Safes at best just buy time for your alarm system to notify the police to respond. But that’s not going to help you if it’s the government trying to get in.
I just took my combo knob and shifted it 10 numbers. All I had to do was file the spindle down to fit the new position and JB Welded it to the spindle. Now, Even the manufacturers can't get in.
Great information to have - thorough and succinct. At least now I can get it back to the point where it was prior to Liberty opening the flood gate. Thanks Liberty - Eleven Hundred or so thank you's!!
Not to mention an EMP will fry any electronic lock - Wayne Winton good information!!! Thanks!
Not sure I agree with your last statement. Like you just previously said, a good mechanical lock, have the original combination changed, and you are doing pretty good.