I encountered a ICC member when I attended Liberty University. Our teacher was gone for the day, it was a big class, and we had our student teacher for the day. She was going over doctrine and the COC guy says in front of the whole class that her doctrine was wrong on the slideshow and that baptism was a necessary component to be regenerate. She had NO IDEA what to say, she was baffled. He said that you must be baptized with water to be saved and pointed out some scripture in acts, to which she had no response. So, I spoke up for her and said the thief on the cross was not baptized therefore you need no water baptism to be saved only to believe in Jesus Christ, to which he stated the verse in Hebrews 9:17 ““For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.” Therefore baptism is a necessary component of salvation and that the thief was an exception to the rule because Christ said himself he would be in paradise. To which I pointed out that the death of the cross was inaugurated in Matthew chapter 26 at the passover meal…. There was silence, the entire class started muttering and then clapped and cheered and later we shook hands and ended the duel.
When you look at a cult from the outside, it appears fun. Sometimes it can be, but you will never know or see the unfun times, because that would cause people to not want to join. You never really know a person who’s in, unless you are in yourself.
Exactly, they catch you with the love and once you are tied in you can't see outside the forest. Once you are out, that's when it all becomes clear and you also realise the love was fake!
Something that’s very interesting to me is they harp on discipleship and that’s their hook but what’s telling to me is after the book of Acts the word “disciple” is never used in the rest of the New Testament… go to a concordance and see for yourselves… ADDENDUM: I just listened to the rest of this podcast and I so appreciate the guest bringing out this point! Incredibly thoughtful presentation!
Yes, most of Steve’s arguments can be used against a good chunk of the churches of Christ. Kip McKean simply took church of Christ theology - particularly Austin McGary’s exclusive take on baptism, authoritarian discipling practices, and combined and refined them into his system.
The CoC makes, “calling upon the name of the Lord” synonymous with being baptized, which makes Acts 22:16 contradict Acts 2:21; 10:2; 22:8, 10 and 26:15, where it’s clearly shown that prayer comes BEFORE baptism!
Actually, there's SO much more to the thief on the cross argument. You may want to check out ....."Christ Rescued the Thief's Testimony from the Church of Christ" ...by Lee Anne Ferguson
I get that Steve may wish to be mindful of people whose loved ones are embroiled in this group. However, after over a decade of service and having never once learned/taught the gospel (but rather obey or go to Hell) I can affirm as a long time leader that todays Apologetic Dog (04/12/2024) with Dr. Tony Costa will address much of what is wrong with this cult and why the gospel is not found there. Appreciate you Steve (sincerely) but this spade is a spade.
Even though the “gospel” in First Principles can’t save, there are some who became Christians in the ICOC/ICC/RCW and left and some of us (like me) who became Christians after leaving.
The restoration cults offer a short-circuited way of salvation that bypasses all of the humbling spiritual struggles involved in waiting upon the Lord and submitting to His way of dealing with guilty sinners. False religions have always attempted to replace the true gospel with a false one that’s more suitable to fallen man’s sin nature. Because the true gospel initially tends to tear sinners down by detecting their every legalistic endeavor and by destroying their every delusive hope. As a result, it persuades them to relinquish every refuge of lies. But it does all of this to point them to the crucified and risen Savior as their only hope of heaven. Before a person can ever truly be saved, they must first be humbled into the dust by being given a clearer view of their sad and sinful condition, in stark contrast to the divine perfections of God’s perfect and holy standard of righteousness. For only then can they be truly willing to completely throw themselves upon the mercy of Christ alone as their only hope of salvation.
I left the Mainline CoC. Don’t worry brother, even a week, uninformed faith with doctrinal errors can save, because we have a strong errorless savior ❤
So, as a former mainline church of Christ guy (and minister) for over 20 years - (I’m now a Reformed Presbyterian PCA minister)… The reason it was so easy to convince people of the CoC doctrine of baptism was because of arguments like the ones in this videos. Loved the videos, but the arguments about John 3 and Romans 6 are just frail. There are various reformed commentaries that would say John 3 refers to water / spirit baptism. Especially when understood from the OT water/spirit image in the prophets. Asserting that Trinitarian believer’s baptism hadn’t been instituted yet is TRUE, yet, by that logic, the giving of the Spirit hadn’t occurred yet either. If Nicodemus was expected to receive the baptism of John which WAS revealed, why would Christ say he must also receive the Spirit - which hadn’t been given yet. Clearly they’re both referring to the future. That, plus John being written last makes the later ecclesiology come through. Baptists when dealing with baptism rely too heavily on “confess with your mouth and believe in your heart… and you will be saved.” Which is true, but it’s unfair to say CoC proof texts when that is the Baptist proof text. I became Baptist briefly before I became Presbyterian, and the Baptist arguments seem to rely too heavily on simply asserting that baptism doesn’t save, instead of demonstrating from the scripture that we’re saved by faith alone. The positive arguments presented are solid, so I appreciate that. But, baptists I think really need to rethink some of their arguments on John 3, Rom 6, 1 Pet 3, Acts 2:38. Also, to rethink their tone regarding baptism (and Lord’s Supper). Baptists once were killed defending baptism by immersion, now you hear them speak and it comes across as a hatred of baptism.
36:20 this part is VERY true. Mainline and icoc have absolutely 0 concept of exegesis or exposition. When you say “what does the whole chapter mean?” You may as well be speaking mandarin.
This episode is actually the third in a series on the ICC. If you go back two episodes here on Cultish you will find the first episode where we have Coltin as a guest.
They will say they do not believe in baptismal regeneration. However they will totally contradict themselves by saying you do not get the Holy Spirit until you come out of the waters of baptism???? Salvation or justification before our Holy God comes by Faith alone in the already finished work of Jesus Christ.🙏❤️. A person is born again by God alone, not from being baptized in water. It is by God’s grace through Faith that he alone gives.
They will they say often because they want to distinguish that it’s not the water that’s special (like Lutherans/ Catholics/EO), but that the act of baptism is what causes one to receive the spirit.
No one said that baptism is not needed as it is clearly commanded. But baptism is not necessary for salvation as Kip and the Campbellites before him have taught, as we covered here on this episode.
@@heystevematthews I understand what you’re saying, but as someone who left the icoc years ago. (Myself 8 years and my husband 17 years in) I know myself and many were terrified of spiritual pornography 😩 I think you need to tread lightly on the baptism thing. Not to avoid it all together, but I think it will shut a lot of people down immediately. We left 21 years ago and still dealing with consequences of what it did to our family.
@@heystevematthews I really think if you lead with that it’s a command of the Lord but the act itself doesn’t save you, you will get through to a lot more.
My thoughts exactly. In my decades of experience coming out of the CoC, this is why many of them don’t take Baptists seriously. After of few minutes hearing them talk about baptism, they almost seem to dislike it, and you wonder why do it at all… Of course, that is basically the Baptist understand of communion after all.
Your wrong on psalm 51 & 53, that's not describing total depravity, but ironically you are anachronistically imposing the calvinist presuppositions & augustinian anthropology onto the text, like how ICC and all cults twist what scripture says only to conform to their presuppositions, much like how calvinist isegesis of Romans 9 & Ephesians 2, & likewise how our catholic friends impose into the text Peter is the OG pope & we can pray to Mary. Let's be honest with the text now, we tend to let our bias confirm our presuppositions. Like the absurdity of the Billy Carson followers who spread these lost gospels they want to hide, though it's false, this only confirms their bias of this concept of gnostic hidden & secret knowledge.
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Btw, thank you for talking about this. We who have been hurt, do appreciate it.
Great expose' Steve! This will surely help SO many people!
Glad to see a vid on their harmful doctrine aswell! Hopefully many open minded people give it a listen!
I'm looking forward to it! Keep up the Good Work, Cultish!
I encountered a ICC member when I attended Liberty University. Our teacher was gone for the day, it was a big class, and we had our student teacher for the day. She was going over doctrine and the COC guy says in front of the whole class that her doctrine was wrong on the slideshow and that baptism was a necessary component to be regenerate. She had NO IDEA what to say, she was baffled. He said that you must be baptized with water to be saved and pointed out some scripture in acts, to which she had no response. So, I spoke up for her and said the thief on the cross was not baptized therefore you need no water baptism to be saved only to believe in Jesus Christ, to which he stated the verse in Hebrews 9:17 ““For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.” Therefore baptism is a necessary component of salvation and that the thief was an exception to the rule because Christ said himself he would be in paradise. To which I pointed out that the death of the cross was inaugurated in Matthew chapter 26 at the passover meal…. There was silence, the entire class started muttering and then clapped and cheered and later we shook hands and ended the duel.
NICE ONE!
There’s an ICOC congregation in Lynchburg, but not an ICC or RCW one.
@@whenascammercalls247nice see you here too…. Yes I was reached at college dorm and so did my wife
So true! The restoration cults absolutely hate the testimony of the thief on the cross, because it completely destroys their "new terms" of salvation.
@xray342radio Maybe not yet
When you look at a cult from the outside, it appears fun. Sometimes it can be, but you will never know or see the unfun times, because that would cause people to not want to join. You never really know a person who’s in, unless you are in yourself.
Definitely!
@@TrueDisciple115they should talk to you too!
@@Eyesofmars2040 haha that’d be something
Exactly, they catch you with the love and once you are tied in you can't see outside the forest.
Once you are out, that's when it all becomes clear and you also realise the love was fake!
Something that’s very interesting to me is they harp on discipleship and that’s their hook but what’s telling to me is after the book of Acts the word “disciple” is never used in the rest of the New Testament… go to a concordance and see for yourselves… ADDENDUM: I just listened to the rest of this podcast and I so appreciate the guest bringing out this point! Incredibly thoughtful presentation!
Nor the word 'discipler ' or 'one OVER another '
Plus Special Missions is not there either!
@ exactly! The terms that are used in the epistles are: children, saints, brothers and sisters… more family type terms than positions of authority.
Many in the Church of Christ also believe in water baptismal regeneration.
Yes, most of Steve’s arguments can be used against a good chunk of the churches of Christ. Kip McKean simply took church of Christ theology - particularly Austin McGary’s exclusive take on baptism, authoritarian discipling practices, and combined and refined them into his system.
Amen brother!!
It is easy to debate self.
My thoughts exactly.
Good stuff as usual, thanks
🇻🇦
Some use imitate me as I imitate Christ as discipler and disciple relationships
The CoC makes, “calling upon the name of the Lord” synonymous with being baptized, which makes Acts 22:16 contradict Acts 2:21; 10:2; 22:8, 10 and 26:15, where it’s clearly shown that prayer comes BEFORE baptism!
Could you guys do an episode (or more) on the Amish and Free Masons?
Actually, there's SO much more to the thief on the cross argument. You may want to check out ....."Christ Rescued the Thief's Testimony from the Church of Christ" ...by Lee Anne Ferguson
23:45 This accolade list is sooooo ridiculous.
They completely forgot the other titles
Drunkard
Prnogrphr
Manipulator
Indoctrinator
Fornication
Etc
These parts are coming out now.
I get that Steve may wish to be mindful of people whose loved ones are embroiled in this group. However, after over a decade of service and having never once learned/taught the gospel (but rather obey or go to Hell) I can affirm as a long time leader that todays Apologetic Dog (04/12/2024) with Dr. Tony Costa will address much of what is wrong with this cult and why the gospel is not found there. Appreciate you Steve (sincerely) but this spade is a spade.
❤❤❤
I left not long ago. I wonder. Are all of us not saved?
Even though the “gospel” in First Principles can’t save, there are some who became Christians in the ICOC/ICC/RCW and left and some of us (like me) who became Christians after leaving.
The restoration cults offer a short-circuited way of salvation that bypasses all of the humbling spiritual struggles involved in waiting upon the Lord and submitting to His way of dealing with guilty sinners. False religions have always attempted to replace the true gospel with a false one that’s more suitable to fallen man’s sin nature. Because the true gospel initially tends to tear sinners down by detecting their every legalistic endeavor and by destroying their every delusive hope. As a result, it persuades them to relinquish every refuge of lies. But it does all of this to point them to the crucified and risen Savior as their only hope of heaven.
Before a person can ever truly be saved, they must first be humbled into the dust by being given a clearer view of their sad and sinful condition, in stark contrast to the divine perfections of God’s perfect and holy standard of righteousness. For only then can they be truly willing to completely throw themselves upon the mercy of Christ alone as their only hope of salvation.
I left the Mainline CoC. Don’t worry brother, even a week, uninformed faith with doctrinal errors can save, because we have a strong errorless savior ❤
I think this book helps and maybe related to those who left
Twisted Scriptures
Book by Mary Alice Chrnalogar
What does eis mean in Matthew 26:28.
So, as a former mainline church of Christ guy (and minister) for over 20 years - (I’m now a Reformed Presbyterian PCA minister)…
The reason it was so easy to convince people of the CoC doctrine of baptism was because of arguments like the ones in this videos.
Loved the videos, but the arguments about John 3 and Romans 6 are just frail. There are various reformed commentaries that would say John 3 refers to water / spirit baptism. Especially when understood from the OT water/spirit image in the prophets.
Asserting that Trinitarian believer’s baptism hadn’t been instituted yet is TRUE, yet, by that logic, the giving of the Spirit hadn’t occurred yet either. If Nicodemus was expected to receive the baptism of John which WAS revealed, why would Christ say he must also receive the Spirit - which hadn’t been given yet. Clearly they’re both referring to the future. That, plus John being written last makes the later ecclesiology come through.
Baptists when dealing with baptism rely too heavily on “confess with your mouth and believe in your heart… and you will be saved.” Which is true, but it’s unfair to say CoC proof texts when that is the Baptist proof text. I became Baptist briefly before I became Presbyterian, and the Baptist arguments seem to rely too heavily on simply asserting that baptism doesn’t save, instead of demonstrating from the scripture that we’re saved by faith alone.
The positive arguments presented are solid, so I appreciate that.
But, baptists I think really need to rethink some of their arguments on John 3, Rom 6, 1 Pet 3, Acts 2:38. Also, to rethink their tone regarding baptism (and Lord’s Supper). Baptists once were killed defending baptism by immersion, now you hear them speak and it comes across as a hatred of baptism.
36:20 this part is VERY true. Mainline and icoc have absolutely 0 concept of exegesis or exposition. When you say “what does the whole chapter mean?” You may as well be speaking mandarin.
I think you should try to to talk to Coltin Rohn.
This episode is actually the third in a series on the ICC. If you go back two episodes here on Cultish you will find the first episode where we have Coltin as a guest.
They will say they do not believe in baptismal regeneration. However they will totally contradict themselves by saying you do not get the Holy Spirit until you come out of the waters of baptism???? Salvation or justification before our Holy God comes by Faith alone in the already finished work of Jesus Christ.🙏❤️.
A person is born again by God alone, not from being baptized in water. It is by God’s grace through Faith that he alone gives.
They will they say often because they want to distinguish that it’s not the water that’s special (like Lutherans/ Catholics/EO), but that the act of baptism is what causes one to receive the spirit.
Or because of
Toward= eis
The more you pound away on baptism not being needed the more you’ve just made tons of people immediately click off.
No one said that baptism is not needed as it is clearly commanded. But baptism is not necessary for salvation as Kip and the Campbellites before him have taught, as we covered here on this episode.
@@heystevematthews
I understand what you’re saying, but as someone who left the icoc years ago. (Myself 8 years and my husband 17 years in) I know myself and many were terrified of spiritual pornography 😩
I think you need to tread lightly on the baptism thing. Not to avoid it all together, but I think it will shut a lot of people down immediately.
We left 21 years ago and still dealing with consequences of what it did to our family.
@@heystevematthews
I really think if you lead with that it’s a command of the Lord but the act itself doesn’t save you, you will get through to a lot more.
@ I thought that I had made that clear but I will try to pay more attention to that. Thank you and God bless.
My thoughts exactly. In my decades of experience coming out of the CoC, this is why many of them don’t take Baptists seriously.
After of few minutes hearing them talk about baptism, they almost seem to dislike it, and you wonder why do it at all…
Of course, that is basically the Baptist understand of communion after all.
Again, cant get one minute in without Walter Martin being mentioned, mentioned even before the Bible. Sounds cultish
Your wrong on psalm 51 & 53, that's not describing total depravity, but ironically you are anachronistically imposing the calvinist presuppositions & augustinian anthropology onto the text, like how ICC and all cults twist what scripture says only to conform to their presuppositions, much like how calvinist isegesis of Romans 9 & Ephesians 2, & likewise how our catholic friends impose into the text Peter is the OG pope & we can pray to Mary. Let's be honest with the text now, we tend to let our bias confirm our presuppositions. Like the absurdity of the Billy Carson followers who spread these lost gospels they want to hide, though it's false, this only confirms their bias of this concept of gnostic hidden & secret knowledge.
well said
So you’re a Pelagian?
@@xray342radio are you asking him that bc of his Psalm 51 + 53 positions?
I’m one of those “fall aways”… 🥲
(At the London ICC)
Sorry to hear that I almost joined at one point . What happened if u want to share