I may be an exception to the rule in our experience with the ICOC. My husband and I attended the Fayetteville Church in NC and when going through the First Principles and reading my Bible myself, I came to understand I had a lifetime of head knowledge and no true repentance and salvation. I was baptized in the church, but with an understanding that that wasn’t what was saving me, despite what I was being told. My husband as well. We left after approaching the leadership with our objections to their theology with the support of family who coached us along the way. It hurt to leave. We had no one. No church anymore. Lost all of the relationships we thought were real and genuine in an instant. It prevented us from finding a REAL church for many years. Now, by God’s good grace, we are in a solid, reformed, historically grounded church where discipleship and relationships are integral as well as the true gospel and deep theology. I remain grateful for our time there, as the Lord used it to show us we were lost. Just part of our journey.
I was part of the boston movement/icoc back in 1993/1994 (filling up the old boston garden for service) and i gotta say THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for this series. There really isnt much out there written up about the cult... It made me feel justified for how it made me feel back then! And the first 15 minutes of this podcast gave me intense flashbacks! I do attend a non-denominational church in my community... And sent these videos to my pastor. Cuz you guys hit all my truths back then! Way to go! Nice series!
love your stuff man, thanks for pointing me to this video ! HIghly recomend this hcannel to those who want to learn more on why doctrinaly the icc is harmful !
I allowed icon members to convince me that my baptism from just a year prior to getting in their church was invalid because they didn’t think my journey to salvation was correct…….how you gon tell God how to bring people to Him? lol the entire time I was part of that church my spirit KNEW something wasn’t right. I thank God for my spiritually mature mother who had the Spirit of discernment (she is now with the Lord) who would constantly tell me that something wasn’t right…. I just wanna let you guys know that God kept me, blessed me and opened my eyes and redeemed me back to Him after falling for that mess they were teaching
I left this place years ago and im so glad God brought me out of there. Its relieving to see others waking up to the truth but also very saddening as well for the simple fact this place is still functioning the way it is and still causing harm to so many people and then their families also. BUT GOD...
So much of this resonates and might I add, so many similarities to the mainline CoC that we were involved in. 17 years in prosperity gospel, and then almost 3 years in the hardline CoC, nearly destroyed our faith altogether. Thank you for putting out this content.
When you look at a cult from the outside, it appears fun. Sometimes it can be, but you will never know or see the unfun times, because that would cause people to not want to join. You never really know a person who’s in, unless you are in yourself.
Exactly, they catch you with the love and once you are tied in you can't see outside the forest. Once you are out, that's when it all becomes clear and you also realise the love was fake!
Right especially when you’re young and impressionable. When i got recruited i was like ooh i can move in with the sisters! Go on dates! Attend events and never be without a community. But when i actually got in i was miserable and left so fast
I got baptized into the ICOC in 1998 and was in the church there until 2002 during the Henry Kreite letter time. I lived in Portland walking distance from where Kip Mckean lived during this time when he was there and the beginnings of the ICC. I have never been to the ICC, but the ICOC made a big impact on my life and still affects me to this day.
How’d it affect you? I grew out of the ICOC (got Reformed-ish, etc) but I still kind of loved the way they greeted people with a side hug and I do it a little bit at the Presbyterian church I started going to and I wonder if I’m crazy.
Something that’s very interesting to me is they harp on discipleship and that’s their hook but what’s telling to me is after the book of Acts the word “disciple” is never used in the rest of the New Testament… go to a concordance and see for yourselves… ADDENDUM: I just listened to the rest of this podcast and I so appreciate the guest bringing out this point! Incredibly thoughtful presentation!
Acts 17:11 about the Bereans checking what Paul said is one of their trophy passages...until you apply it to them. It is/was a part of the First Principles studies and accepting it was a requirement of being a true disciple-at least this WAS true when I studied in "92. It's possible it's changed (to cover themselves-I don't know) because they've "refined their thinking".
The CoC makes, “calling upon the name of the Lord” synonymous with being baptized, which makes Acts 22:16 contradict Acts 2:21; 10:2; 22:8, 10 and 26:15, where it’s clearly shown that prayer comes BEFORE baptism!
I encountered a ICC member when I attended Liberty University. Our teacher was gone for the day, it was a big class, and we had our student teacher for the day. She was going over doctrine and the COC guy says in front of the whole class that her doctrine was wrong on the slideshow and that baptism was a necessary component to be regenerate. She had NO IDEA what to say, she was baffled. He said that you must be baptized with water to be saved and pointed out some scripture in acts, to which she had no response. So, I spoke up for her and said the thief on the cross was not baptized therefore you need no water baptism to be saved only to believe in Jesus Christ, to which he stated the verse in Hebrews 9:17 ““For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.” Therefore baptism is a necessary component of salvation and that the thief was an exception to the rule because Christ said himself he would be in paradise. To which I pointed out that the death of the cross was inaugurated in Matthew chapter 26 at the passover meal…. There was silence, the entire class started muttering and then clapped and cheered and later we shook hands and ended the duel.
They will say they do not believe in baptismal regeneration. However they will totally contradict themselves by saying you do not get the Holy Spirit until you come out of the waters of baptism???? Salvation or justification before our Holy God comes by Faith alone in the already finished work of Jesus Christ.🙏❤️. A person is born again by God alone, not from being baptized in water. It is by God’s grace through Faith that he alone gives.
They will they say often because they want to distinguish that it’s not the water that’s special (like Lutherans/ Catholics/EO), but that the act of baptism is what causes one to receive the spirit.
Yes, most of Steve’s arguments can be used against a good chunk of the churches of Christ. Kip McKean simply took church of Christ theology - particularly Austin McGary’s exclusive take on baptism, authoritarian discipling practices, and combined and refined them into his system.
So, as a former mainline church of Christ guy (and minister) for over 20 years - (I’m now a Reformed Presbyterian PCA minister)… The reason it was so easy to convince people of the CoC doctrine of baptism was because of arguments like the ones in this videos. Loved the videos, but the arguments about John 3 and Romans 6 are just frail. There are various reformed commentaries that would say John 3 refers to water / spirit baptism. Especially when understood from the OT water/spirit image in the prophets. Asserting that Trinitarian believer’s baptism hadn’t been instituted yet is TRUE, yet, by that logic, the giving of the Spirit hadn’t occurred yet either. If Nicodemus was expected to receive the baptism of John which WAS revealed, why would Christ say he must also receive the Spirit - which hadn’t been given yet. Clearly they’re both referring to the future. That, plus John being written last makes the later ecclesiology come through. Baptists when dealing with baptism rely too heavily on “confess with your mouth and believe in your heart… and you will be saved.” Which is true, but it’s unfair to say CoC proof texts when that is the Baptist proof text. I became Baptist briefly before I became Presbyterian, and the Baptist arguments seem to rely too heavily on simply asserting that baptism doesn’t save, instead of demonstrating from the scripture that we’re saved by faith alone. The positive arguments presented are solid, so I appreciate that. But, baptists I think really need to rethink some of their arguments on John 3, Rom 6, 1 Pet 3, Acts 2:38. Also, to rethink their tone regarding baptism (and Lord’s Supper). Baptists once were killed defending baptism by immersion, now you hear them speak and it comes across as a hatred of baptism.
36:20 this part is VERY true. Mainline and icoc have absolutely 0 concept of exegesis or exposition. When you say “what does the whole chapter mean?” You may as well be speaking mandarin.
@@BeefyPreacher Regeneration, indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit has ALWAYS been essential to salvation (Num. 27:18, Deut. 30:6, Isa. 63:11, Jer. 31:31-34, Ezek. 36:26-27; 39:29, Lk. 1:15, 41; 2:25-38, Jn. 3:3, Rom. 8:9-11, 1 Cor. 2:10-16; 10:3-4, Gal. 4:6, 1 Pet. 1:9-11). Thus, the Spirit’s outpouring in Acts (a unique and special gift to believers) was NEVER meant to usher in a new way of being saved, as the restoration cults would have us to believe (Jn. 7:39).
Are we safe to say they are Anathema because they are adding to the true gospel of grace!??? Because I believe that is what it is saying just like Galatians said about circumcision.
I get that Steve may wish to be mindful of people whose loved ones are embroiled in this group. However, after over a decade of service and having never once learned/taught the gospel (but rather obey or go to Hell) I can affirm as a long time leader that todays Apologetic Dog (04/12/2024) with Dr. Tony Costa will address much of what is wrong with this cult and why the gospel is not found there. Appreciate you Steve (sincerely) but this spade is a spade.
Great points but someone the points were lost in the fast speech. It was a little choppy. Some gaps were left but overall very thankfully for this! I pray it is a blessing to those seeking the truth!
Actually, there's SO much more to the thief on the cross argument. You may want to check out ....."Christ Rescued the Thief's Testimony from the Church of Christ" ...by Lee Anne Ferguson
1.25. like in Psalms it's a multi-headed snake but if job is the earliest mention of Leviathan then it was very clearly originally based on the template of a crocodile specifically the Nile crocodile bc that is exactly what the Book of Job accurately describes in precise detail imagine that > you're living in the Bronze Age you're just over five foot tall and you're armed with only a pointed stick in a short Spear of sharpened bronze and you are inclined or charged to take this on The Book of Job which was written consistent with that image describes a huge powerful yet graceful monster whose mouth is like a set of great doors ringed by fearsome teeth his back has rows of shields tightly sealed together each so close to the next that no air can pass between they are joined fast to one another they cling together and cannot be parted if you lay a hand on him you will remember the struggle and never do it again of course I'm quoting from the Bible here any hope of subduing him is false the mere sight of him is overpowering Aron Ra Rebutting Genesis Apologetics - Alleged Myths *** its hard to know when JOB was written
So if baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, we can make it to heaven without having our sins forgiven? Whats the point of it being in the Bible if its not to be applied to our lives?
I don’t understand your explanation for John 3:5. The verse talks about being “born again”, which seems to mean becoming a Christian. It mentions water, why? (No explanation given here in this podcast) in verse 22 Jesus and his disciples went to the country to baptise people, whose name did Jesus baptise in? Also you say Romans 6 has nothing to do with baptism then say it has to do with baptism and “it’s about leaving your old life and starting your new life in Christ. Amen” This sounds like baptism is important?
But it's not so easy for the restoration cults to debate anyone concerning the thief on the cross. That's why they can never biblically answer the question....What gospel did the thief on the cross obey according to Hebrews 4:2 and its parallel passages ((Isa.53:1, Jn. 12:38, Rom. 3:30; 10:16, Gal. 3:6-8)?
It is not hard at all to answer this. This is a strawman. If you really want an answer. If you are really serious let we know. I have debated this numerous times. Again it is easy to debate onesself
@@bryanhodge3978 Perhaps you misunderstood the question. Hebrews 4:2 and its parallel passages all reveal that the gospel of the Old Testament is the SAME GOSPEL of the New Testament. Covenantal dispensations, and their different ordinances, have never changed God's eternal plan of redemption, for it transcends any given dispensation. So again, with this being the case....What gospel did the thief on the cross REALLY obey? We look forward to your answer!
Even though the “gospel” in First Principles can’t save, there are some who became Christians in the ICOC/ICC/RCW and left and some of us (like me) who became Christians after leaving.
The restoration cults offer a short-circuited way of salvation that bypasses all of the humbling spiritual struggles involved in waiting upon the Lord and submitting to His way of dealing with guilty sinners. False religions have always attempted to replace the true gospel with a false one that’s more suitable to fallen man’s sin nature. Because the true gospel initially tends to tear sinners down by detecting their every legalistic endeavor and by destroying their every delusive hope. As a result, it persuades them to relinquish every refuge of lies. But it does all of this to point them to the crucified and risen Savior as their only hope of heaven. Before a person can ever truly be saved, they must first be humbled into the dust by being given a clearer view of their sad and sinful condition, in stark contrast to the divine perfections of God’s perfect and holy standard of righteousness. For only then can they be truly willing to completely throw themselves upon the mercy of Christ alone as their only hope of salvation.
I left the Mainline CoC. Don’t worry brother, even a week, uninformed faith with doctrinal errors can save, because we have a strong errorless savior ❤
This episode is actually the third in a series on the ICC. If you go back two episodes here on Cultish you will find the first episode where we have Coltin as a guest.
No one said that baptism is not needed as it is clearly commanded. But baptism is not necessary for salvation as Kip and the Campbellites before him have taught, as we covered here on this episode.
@@heystevematthews I understand what you’re saying, but as someone who left the icoc years ago. (Myself 8 years and my husband 17 years in) I know myself and many were terrified of spiritual pornography 😩 I think you need to tread lightly on the baptism thing. Not to avoid it all together, but I think it will shut a lot of people down immediately. We left 21 years ago and still dealing with consequences of what it did to our family.
@@heystevematthews I really think if you lead with that it’s a command of the Lord but the act itself doesn’t save you, you will get through to a lot more.
My thoughts exactly. In my decades of experience coming out of the CoC, this is why many of them don’t take Baptists seriously. After of few minutes hearing them talk about baptism, they almost seem to dislike it, and you wonder why do it at all… Of course, that is basically the Baptist understand of communion after all.
Your wrong on psalm 51 & 53, that's not describing total depravity, but ironically you are anachronistically imposing the calvinist presuppositions & augustinian anthropology onto the text, like how ICC and all cults twist what scripture says only to conform to their presuppositions, much like how calvinist isegesis of Romans 9 & Ephesians 2, & likewise how our catholic friends impose into the text Peter is the OG pope & we can pray to Mary. Let's be honest with the text now, we tend to let our bias confirm our presuppositions. Like the absurdity of the Billy Carson followers who spread these lost gospels they want to hide, though it's false, this only confirms their bias of this concept of gnostic hidden & secret knowledge.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
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Ministry Watch posted an update regarding the lawsuits against the ICOC several days ago.
I may be an exception to the rule in our experience with the ICOC. My husband and I attended the Fayetteville Church in NC and when going through the First Principles and reading my Bible myself, I came to understand I had a lifetime of head knowledge and no true repentance and salvation. I was baptized in the church, but with an understanding that that wasn’t what was saving me, despite what I was being told. My husband as well. We left after approaching the leadership with our objections to their theology with the support of family who coached us along the way. It hurt to leave. We had no one. No church anymore. Lost all of the relationships we thought were real and genuine in an instant. It prevented us from finding a REAL church for many years. Now, by God’s good grace, we are in a solid, reformed, historically grounded church where discipleship and relationships are integral as well as the true gospel and deep theology. I remain grateful for our time there, as the Lord used it to show us we were lost. Just part of our journey.
Just curious - what is your current congregation
@ I currently attend a reformed, baptistic, historically Christian church in Richmond, VA.
@@jessicakurten4533 Thank you
I was part of the boston movement/icoc back in 1993/1994 (filling up the old boston garden for service) and i gotta say THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for this series. There really isnt much out there written up about the cult... It made me feel justified for how it made me feel back then! And the first 15 minutes of this podcast gave me intense flashbacks!
I do attend a non-denominational church in my community... And sent these videos to my pastor. Cuz you guys hit all my truths back then! Way to go! Nice series!
Btw, thank you for talking about this. We who have been hurt, do appreciate it.
Glad to see a vid on their harmful doctrine aswell! Hopefully many open minded people give it a listen!
love your stuff man, thanks for pointing me to this video ! HIghly recomend this hcannel to those who want to learn more on why doctrinaly the icc is harmful !
I allowed icon members to convince me that my baptism from just a year prior to getting in their church was invalid because they didn’t think my journey to salvation was correct…….how you gon tell God how to bring people to Him? lol the entire time I was part of that church my spirit KNEW something wasn’t right. I thank God for my spiritually mature mother who had the Spirit of discernment (she is now with the Lord) who would constantly tell me that something wasn’t right…. I just wanna let you guys know that God kept me, blessed me and opened my eyes and redeemed me back to Him after falling for that mess they were teaching
I left this place years ago and im so glad God brought me out of there. Its relieving to see others waking up to the truth but also very saddening as well for the simple fact this place is still functioning the way it is and still causing harm to so many people and then their families also. BUT GOD...
I'm looking forward to it! Keep up the Good Work, Cultish!
So much of this resonates and might I add, so many similarities to the mainline CoC that we were involved in. 17 years in prosperity gospel, and then almost 3 years in the hardline CoC, nearly destroyed our faith altogether. Thank you for putting out this content.
When you look at a cult from the outside, it appears fun. Sometimes it can be, but you will never know or see the unfun times, because that would cause people to not want to join. You never really know a person who’s in, unless you are in yourself.
Definitely!
@@TrueDisciple115they should talk to you too!
@@Eyesofmars2040 haha that’d be something
Exactly, they catch you with the love and once you are tied in you can't see outside the forest.
Once you are out, that's when it all becomes clear and you also realise the love was fake!
Right especially when you’re young and impressionable. When i got recruited i was like ooh i can move in with the sisters! Go on dates! Attend events and never be without a community. But when i actually got in i was miserable and left so fast
I got baptized into the ICOC in 1998 and was in the church there until 2002 during the Henry Kreite letter time. I lived in Portland walking distance from where Kip Mckean lived during this time when he was there and the beginnings of the ICC. I have never been to the ICC, but the ICOC made a big impact on my life and still affects me to this day.
How’d it affect you? I grew out of the ICOC (got Reformed-ish, etc) but I still kind of loved the way they greeted people with a side hug and I do it a little bit at the Presbyterian church I started going to and I wonder if I’m crazy.
Great expose' Steve! This will surely help SO many people!
Something that’s very interesting to me is they harp on discipleship and that’s their hook but what’s telling to me is after the book of Acts the word “disciple” is never used in the rest of the New Testament… go to a concordance and see for yourselves… ADDENDUM: I just listened to the rest of this podcast and I so appreciate the guest bringing out this point! Incredibly thoughtful presentation!
Nor the word 'discipler ' or 'one OVER another '
Plus Special Missions is not there either!
@ exactly! The terms that are used in the epistles are: children, saints, brothers and sisters… more family type terms than positions of authority.
Acts 17:11 about the Bereans checking what Paul said is one of their trophy passages...until you apply it to them. It is/was a part of the First Principles studies and accepting it was a requirement of being a true disciple-at least this WAS true when I studied in "92. It's possible it's changed (to cover themselves-I don't know) because they've "refined their thinking".
The CoC makes, “calling upon the name of the Lord” synonymous with being baptized, which makes Acts 22:16 contradict Acts 2:21; 10:2; 22:8, 10 and 26:15, where it’s clearly shown that prayer comes BEFORE baptism!
Huge blessing guys!🙏❤️.
I have people caught up in these lies that I truly love.
I encountered a ICC member when I attended Liberty University. Our teacher was gone for the day, it was a big class, and we had our student teacher for the day. She was going over doctrine and the COC guy says in front of the whole class that her doctrine was wrong on the slideshow and that baptism was a necessary component to be regenerate. She had NO IDEA what to say, she was baffled. He said that you must be baptized with water to be saved and pointed out some scripture in acts, to which she had no response. So, I spoke up for her and said the thief on the cross was not baptized therefore you need no water baptism to be saved only to believe in Jesus Christ, to which he stated the verse in Hebrews 9:17 ““For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.” Therefore baptism is a necessary component of salvation and that the thief was an exception to the rule because Christ said himself he would be in paradise. To which I pointed out that the death of the cross was inaugurated in Matthew chapter 26 at the passover meal…. There was silence, the entire class started muttering and then clapped and cheered and later we shook hands and ended the duel.
NICE ONE!
There’s an ICOC congregation in Lynchburg, but not an ICC or RCW one.
So true! The restoration cults absolutely hate the testimony of the thief on the cross, because it completely destroys their "new terms" of salvation.
@xray342radio Maybe not yet
@@christrescuedme2182 by far it doesn't my friend
I think this book helps and maybe related to those who left
Twisted Scriptures
Book by Mary Alice Chrnalogar
They will say they do not believe in baptismal regeneration. However they will totally contradict themselves by saying you do not get the Holy Spirit until you come out of the waters of baptism???? Salvation or justification before our Holy God comes by Faith alone in the already finished work of Jesus Christ.🙏❤️.
A person is born again by God alone, not from being baptized in water. It is by God’s grace through Faith that he alone gives.
They will they say often because they want to distinguish that it’s not the water that’s special (like Lutherans/ Catholics/EO), but that the act of baptism is what causes one to receive the spirit.
If anyone else from the (mainline? I guess?) church of Christ is planning on responding to the 7 verses about baptism part of this video, let me know.
Many in the Church of Christ also believe in water baptismal regeneration.
Yes, most of Steve’s arguments can be used against a good chunk of the churches of Christ. Kip McKean simply took church of Christ theology - particularly Austin McGary’s exclusive take on baptism, authoritarian discipling practices, and combined and refined them into his system.
So, as a former mainline church of Christ guy (and minister) for over 20 years - (I’m now a Reformed Presbyterian PCA minister)…
The reason it was so easy to convince people of the CoC doctrine of baptism was because of arguments like the ones in this videos.
Loved the videos, but the arguments about John 3 and Romans 6 are just frail. There are various reformed commentaries that would say John 3 refers to water / spirit baptism. Especially when understood from the OT water/spirit image in the prophets.
Asserting that Trinitarian believer’s baptism hadn’t been instituted yet is TRUE, yet, by that logic, the giving of the Spirit hadn’t occurred yet either. If Nicodemus was expected to receive the baptism of John which WAS revealed, why would Christ say he must also receive the Spirit - which hadn’t been given yet. Clearly they’re both referring to the future. That, plus John being written last makes the later ecclesiology come through.
Baptists when dealing with baptism rely too heavily on “confess with your mouth and believe in your heart… and you will be saved.” Which is true, but it’s unfair to say CoC proof texts when that is the Baptist proof text. I became Baptist briefly before I became Presbyterian, and the Baptist arguments seem to rely too heavily on simply asserting that baptism doesn’t save, instead of demonstrating from the scripture that we’re saved by faith alone.
The positive arguments presented are solid, so I appreciate that.
But, baptists I think really need to rethink some of their arguments on John 3, Rom 6, 1 Pet 3, Acts 2:38. Also, to rethink their tone regarding baptism (and Lord’s Supper). Baptists once were killed defending baptism by immersion, now you hear them speak and it comes across as a hatred of baptism.
36:20 this part is VERY true. Mainline and icoc have absolutely 0 concept of exegesis or exposition. When you say “what does the whole chapter mean?” You may as well be speaking mandarin.
@@BeefyPreacher Regeneration, indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit has ALWAYS been essential to salvation (Num. 27:18, Deut. 30:6, Isa. 63:11, Jer. 31:31-34, Ezek. 36:26-27; 39:29, Lk. 1:15, 41; 2:25-38, Jn. 3:3, Rom. 8:9-11, 1 Cor. 2:10-16; 10:3-4, Gal. 4:6, 1 Pet. 1:9-11). Thus, the Spirit’s outpouring in Acts (a unique and special gift to believers) was NEVER meant to usher in a new way of being saved, as the restoration cults would have us to believe (Jn. 7:39).
Are we safe to say they are Anathema because they are adding to the true gospel of grace!??? Because I believe that is what it is saying just like Galatians said about circumcision.
Some use imitate me as I imitate Christ as discipler and disciple relationships
thats called cult of personailty henery crete page 36s concern in 2003.
Amen brother!!
😂
I got told I didn’t “care about the mission” because I still sell my PlayStation 😐
I get that Steve may wish to be mindful of people whose loved ones are embroiled in this group. However, after over a decade of service and having never once learned/taught the gospel (but rather obey or go to Hell) I can affirm as a long time leader that todays Apologetic Dog (04/12/2024) with Dr. Tony Costa will address much of what is wrong with this cult and why the gospel is not found there. Appreciate you Steve (sincerely) but this spade is a spade.
Great points but someone the points were lost in the fast speech. It was a little choppy. Some gaps were left but overall very thankfully for this! I pray it is a blessing to those seeking the truth!
Could you guys do an episode (or more) on the Amish and Free Masons?
What does eis mean in Matthew 26:28.
Actually, there's SO much more to the thief on the cross argument. You may want to check out ....."Christ Rescued the Thief's Testimony from the Church of Christ" ...by Lee Anne Ferguson
Excellent book, HIGHLY RECOMMEND!!
So you're an ICC or ICOC member?
1.25.
like in Psalms it's a multi-headed snake but if job is the earliest mention of Leviathan then it was very clearly originally based on the template of a crocodile specifically the Nile crocodile bc that is exactly what the Book of Job accurately describes in precise detail imagine that
> you're living in the Bronze Age you're just over five foot tall and you're armed with only a pointed stick in a short Spear of sharpened bronze and you are inclined or charged to take this on The Book of Job which was written consistent with that image
describes a huge powerful yet graceful monster whose mouth is like a set of great doors ringed by fearsome teeth his back has rows of shields tightly sealed together each so close to the next that no air can pass between they are joined fast to one another they cling together and cannot be parted if you lay a hand on him you will remember the struggle and never do it again of course I'm quoting from the Bible here any hope of subduing him is false the mere sight of him is overpowering
Aron Ra Rebutting Genesis Apologetics - Alleged Myths
***
its hard to know when JOB was written
So if baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, we can make it to heaven without having our sins forgiven? Whats the point of it being in the Bible if its not to be applied to our lives?
John 3:5 “let me tell you this has nothing to do with baptism” woah never seen it that way before……. Water and spirit. Of course just belief.
I don’t understand your explanation for John 3:5. The verse talks about being “born again”, which seems to mean becoming a Christian. It mentions water, why? (No explanation given here in this podcast) in verse 22 Jesus and his disciples went to the country to baptise people, whose name did Jesus baptise in?
Also you say Romans 6 has nothing to do with baptism then say it has to do with baptism and “it’s about leaving your old life and starting your new life in Christ. Amen”
This sounds like baptism is important?
😢😢😢😢😢😢
It is easy to debate self.
My thoughts exactly.
But it's not so easy for the restoration cults to debate anyone concerning the thief on the cross. That's why they can never biblically answer the question....What gospel did the thief on the cross obey according to Hebrews 4:2 and its parallel passages ((Isa.53:1, Jn. 12:38, Rom. 3:30; 10:16, Gal. 3:6-8)?
It is not hard at all to answer this. This is a strawman. If you really want an answer. If you are really serious let we know. I have debated this numerous times. Again it is easy to debate onesself
By the way is a cult anyone who does not agree with you?
@@bryanhodge3978 Perhaps you misunderstood the question. Hebrews 4:2 and its parallel passages all reveal that the gospel of the Old Testament is the SAME GOSPEL of the New Testament. Covenantal dispensations, and their different ordinances, have never changed God's eternal plan of redemption, for it transcends any given dispensation. So again, with this being the case....What gospel did the thief on the cross REALLY obey? We look forward to your answer!
I left not long ago. I wonder. Are all of us not saved?
Even though the “gospel” in First Principles can’t save, there are some who became Christians in the ICOC/ICC/RCW and left and some of us (like me) who became Christians after leaving.
The restoration cults offer a short-circuited way of salvation that bypasses all of the humbling spiritual struggles involved in waiting upon the Lord and submitting to His way of dealing with guilty sinners. False religions have always attempted to replace the true gospel with a false one that’s more suitable to fallen man’s sin nature. Because the true gospel initially tends to tear sinners down by detecting their every legalistic endeavor and by destroying their every delusive hope. As a result, it persuades them to relinquish every refuge of lies. But it does all of this to point them to the crucified and risen Savior as their only hope of heaven.
Before a person can ever truly be saved, they must first be humbled into the dust by being given a clearer view of their sad and sinful condition, in stark contrast to the divine perfections of God’s perfect and holy standard of righteousness. For only then can they be truly willing to completely throw themselves upon the mercy of Christ alone as their only hope of salvation.
I left the Mainline CoC. Don’t worry brother, even a week, uninformed faith with doctrinal errors can save, because we have a strong errorless savior ❤
Hey,
I feel ya. Right there with ya.
23:45 This accolade list is sooooo ridiculous.
They completely forgot the other titles
Drunkard
Prnogrphr
Manipulator
Indoctrinator
Fornication
Etc
These parts are coming out now.
❤❤❤
Or because of
I think you should try to to talk to Coltin Rohn.
This episode is actually the third in a series on the ICC. If you go back two episodes here on Cultish you will find the first episode where we have Coltin as a guest.
Toward= eis
The more you pound away on baptism not being needed the more you’ve just made tons of people immediately click off.
No one said that baptism is not needed as it is clearly commanded. But baptism is not necessary for salvation as Kip and the Campbellites before him have taught, as we covered here on this episode.
@@heystevematthews
I understand what you’re saying, but as someone who left the icoc years ago. (Myself 8 years and my husband 17 years in) I know myself and many were terrified of spiritual pornography 😩
I think you need to tread lightly on the baptism thing. Not to avoid it all together, but I think it will shut a lot of people down immediately.
We left 21 years ago and still dealing with consequences of what it did to our family.
@@heystevematthews
I really think if you lead with that it’s a command of the Lord but the act itself doesn’t save you, you will get through to a lot more.
@ I thought that I had made that clear but I will try to pay more attention to that. Thank you and God bless.
My thoughts exactly. In my decades of experience coming out of the CoC, this is why many of them don’t take Baptists seriously.
After of few minutes hearing them talk about baptism, they almost seem to dislike it, and you wonder why do it at all…
Of course, that is basically the Baptist understand of communion after all.
Your wrong on psalm 51 & 53, that's not describing total depravity, but ironically you are anachronistically imposing the calvinist presuppositions & augustinian anthropology onto the text, like how ICC and all cults twist what scripture says only to conform to their presuppositions, much like how calvinist isegesis of Romans 9 & Ephesians 2, & likewise how our catholic friends impose into the text Peter is the OG pope & we can pray to Mary. Let's be honest with the text now, we tend to let our bias confirm our presuppositions. Like the absurdity of the Billy Carson followers who spread these lost gospels they want to hide, though it's false, this only confirms their bias of this concept of gnostic hidden & secret knowledge.
well said
So you’re a Pelagian?
@@xray342radio are you asking him that bc of his Psalm 51 + 53 positions?
Both the ICOC and ICC are 💯 % CULTS in every way shape and form. I was in both groups.
Again, cant get one minute in without Walter Martin being mentioned, mentioned even before the Bible. Sounds cultish
I’m one of those “fall aways”… 🥲
(At the London ICC)
Sorry to hear that I almost joined at one point . What happened if u want to share
@ where do i start?