Speaking of H3VR's unforgiving nature, I think the precision should be scaled back simply because of the handicap that in VR, you can't go by feel. With a real gun, you can feel if you've got the magazine lined up properly, but in VR, you need to use your eyes.
Well you just boiled down that creeping sense of dissatisfaction I’ve had with VR since the Vive came out in ~2016. Bravo my friend. And it’s not just FPS games, game makers in general seem to be just barely scratching the surface of what’s possible and it irks me to no end how little I find myself using my body in a medium that SHOULD get me to MOVE.
13:25 - sway arms whilst holding gun = increased movement. This is brilliant. A terrific idea. Many of the ideas you pitch are very good, but this one is a great example of the many ideas here. The central theme being physicality = more fun in VR. Games that capitalise on this aspect of VR tend to do VERY well, like SuperHot as a prime example. Mr VR Voice, this is the first time I've seen one of your videos and you've just earned yourself a new subscriber. Nicely done.
I'll also add, we've seen the bulk of VR titles be merely things that have worked in the old medium be retro-fitted to the new. There's PLENTY of room for innovation, and too few people attempting it. The ground is so fertile with possibilities that it's maddening not to see more attempts being made. Hopefully videos like yours will inspire others.
Bro listed every single issue I've had with VR Shooters in one video. If there will be ever a shooter like you described in the future, it will be my all time favourite game, ever.
Maybe it's time we actually take the comfort ratings of VR games seriously. Not everyone may be able to handle a VR shooter like this but that's okay because the people who can handle it will be able to enjoy a new and refreshing experience. I'd hate to bar off people who cant handle something like that but maybe as technology advances and motion sickness and disorientation become less of an issue more and more or even all of VR shooters will be able to enjoy a refreshing experience like this. Great video, I enjoyed it a lot.
The lack of actions that require physical input as well as the lack of good, non-janky physics based actions a player can take in VR shooters means the players will almost always play these games as if they were flatscreen FPSes, because they are undistinguishable than said FPS games (in gameplay anyways)
my issues with more movement in vr shooters comes from 1) cables, being tethered and getting caught up in or tripping over cables, needing to physically flick around, stepping on a cable both yanking your head down and potentially damaging your headset isn't ideal. 2) having to recenter yourself within your playspace. Imagine the following, you take one step to duck into cover, finish the engagment, stand up moving vitually to exit the room, only to duck in the same direction as you encounter another enemy outside of the door, bodyslamming into your wall in the process. it really isn't great, and for those of us that have expensive tech (monitors, TVs, etc...) in the same playspace the risk of damage isn't worth it. 2.5) moving the world so you remain in the same virtual space while recentering yourself physically feels really bad, its tedious and it reminds you that your actually in another dimention more than just sliding around the world. 3) since the worlds themselves are much bigger than your playspace, your going to need to move virtually to get to the majority of places anyway, so the default instinct when you have to move is using the same method to move that you have been, adding physical positioning within your playspace to move into cover faster then becomes less intuitive and something that you have to think about, and when combined with point 2 sometimes its not even possible, and loosing a fight because you reached the edge of your playspace, its not a issue of player skill, its the games mechanics fighting against you, which feels unfair. 4) motion sickness, even if your physically moving around more there is still a slight delay between when you turn your head and the display reflecting it. the more you expose yourself to this delay the more likely you are to get motion sick, its not as bad as additional virtual movement but it can be an issue for some. headsets also have inerta, and the heavier/less compact ones have a tendancy to slide slightly during extreme motions, which further exaggerates this effect. 4.5) also to this effect most games feel "floaty" because they use an instantaneous velocity to control movement, acceleration in vr is also a cause of motion sickness expecially when the acceleration and expected movement dont line up, for example, you release the joystick and take a step back, but since your still decellerating you end up still moving foward, it really doesn't feel good. these are just inherent limitations of the medium, outside of "full dive vr" it's going to be a factor to consider when designing games.
Good points! Taking advantage of the VR medium also means that it's less accessible to people which makes it more niche, but the more static it is, the more people think "why would I put my headset on when I can just play it on my monitor with less hassle". That's the catch 22.
These issues are very true, although I still wish for these ideas to be implemented in a game. Some games simply aren't meant to fit everyone's preference or physical capabilities. Taking these risks of accessibility for immersion is an important step to pushing VR technology and its possibilities. It's why I love Boneworks for its ambitious strides in making a more physical and engaging vr experience
I mean ssd's are really amazing And on the consumer end you're not even seeing a fraction of the potential as they handicap them.. Now if only we could put them into real.. Excuse me I have a date with a grimmel and a neural interface and a lotA lot of antiseptic
@@MrHocotateFreight see, the issue is I have NEVER handled an actual gun, and in VR it takes zero skill, it's too forgiving. As long as your mag sorta kinda aligns, you're good.
Seeing people who don't know how a gun works in vr look for where the mag goes in or how to change the weapon is already punishing enough to take some of my friends out of a game
This is genius. The only thing in this I am not completely on board with is the visual distortion suggestion when using the quick snap turning. As I could move my eyes in addition to my head in real life and avoid any form of vision distortion. Other than that everything else in this is gold. I would love for games to implement things such as this. It definitely can make the games feel so distant with no gun sway while moving/snap turning and let's them have laser like accuracy and pull off some incredibly unrealistic kills that seemingly defeat the entire purpose of wanting to play a game in VR. My personal appeal with VR shooters is to use my body to play the game such as this.
RUclips's algorithm is gold for suggesting this to me. As a VR dev, I released a demo of my new shooter about a week ago now. Aside from the generally positive feedback, I was surprised at how many were begging for snap turn to be added. I was never a fan of it, from day one starting VR. As it turns out though smooth turning simply dosen't rub everyone the same way and that is to be respected. Had to patch in snap turn as default about a day later. I can't understate how much I love general point of this video though. Let's all begin designing better.
@@thebillyd00 Oh yeah, done wrong it'll make you throw up before anything else. I find that adding just a bit of acceleration from zero then deceleration helps tremendously. But it seems like many devs skip even this step and just let you adjust turn speed.
The best solution is to remove smooth turning so you can only turn IRL. No motion sickness for anyone that way. Yeah, I know too many people are stuck playing sitting or whatever. A man can dream, though...
Competitive gamers will cry for accessibility while ignoring their completely incomprehensible gameplay that would make a sailor puke. I think something big that the current industry doesn't want to see is that current VR is just a slice of future VR. The more we treat it like full dive sooner, the more intuitive it will be later. VR games aren't just normal games with your head on a swivel, it's virtual *reality* -putting the player into the game.
hard to disagree with anything in this video, you've not only raised issues but also suggested realistic solutions to them, bravo the problem is how backwards the developers are for majority of todays vr titles, like, ONLY NOW are they realizing maybe the players should reload their weapons manually as opposed to dumbing it down to a single button press... im looking at you killing floor incursion... DISAPPOINTMENT! so with that in mind, we're probably going to have to wait for another headset generation till the devs catch on their "flatscreen+" games could use a bit more R in VR
I am small VR game developer by myself, and I absolutely love proposed solutions! However, there are certainly accessibility issues. Eliminating acceleration for locomotion aims to reduce motion sickness. Therefor, I believe simply slowing down overall movement with armswing should suffice. However, armswing itself presents a problem with playspace. as sitting or standing players may not have enough room to swing within a set threshold. For firearm interaction accuracy, I completely agree that it should require more skill! But there's VR specific issue with controllers because their shapes are not standardized. For example, Index Controllers can reload handguns without problem since there's nothing blocking on top or bottom of controller, on the other hand, Quest 2 Touch Controllers may encounter issues with their ring shaped structure on top of the controller. eventually, this should be resolved with the introduction of new, better small controllers. For now, I just hope everyone gets Valve Index, huge playspace, and a VR treadmill. because that'll fix everything. I hate to see treatments for accessibility getting abused by competitive players though...
thats because you cant be "accessible" to everyone. thats the issue. too many people are tying to accommodate when thats simply life. nothing really stopped Hawking from achieving greatness and no one really accommodated him either, at this point its a weak will that stops most people.
@@3CODKing thats absolutely valid! I do understand that theres no silver bullet for these issues. but if a significant number of people cant play due to motion sickness or other various issues, imo that just isn't acceptable.
honestly this is why I don't play any of the VR FPS games online, it's just hyper efficient cheese and not really immersive physicality like you would expect. sadly a lot of this could be said for other VR games as well, which is why I go out of my way to move more and play less than optimal. I just want to be ready for the future, and not stuck in this weird flatscreen VR hybrid nonsense we have now.
My observations about vr games that feel right and good to play, are the ones that only "help" the player with things that require more sensory inputs. Like touch or fingers. Since a VR game cant provide them, the game has to help in some ways. its a bit hard to explain, but the main thing is that VR should let players do what they feel they can do, and help with little things they cant. Inserting a magazine is hard, because you don't feel neither the gun, nor the magazine. So a little help is required, but in way its logical, or not annoying. Like seeing your hands slide in the magazine in HL:Alyx. Though Alyx is too helping, its still a good way to visualize the problem with VR.
On Turning: I have a ton of time in VR (1000+hr) and I always find it interesting that anyone is still using the stick at all to turn. At this point I NEVER touch the right stick to turn. Whether 45 or 180 degree I just physically turn my body. It feels sooo much better and natural. And if you are good it seems to me just as fast. I 100% believe this will be the pref method at some point in VR. Wireless (quest 2or 3) obviously helps a ton with this.
I cant do that for shooter games bcause my cable will get tangled around me (I have to be very careful with my cable as the index cable is very fragile)
@@SlawikFox Yeah that is understandable. This is the main reason I don't use index or big screen. For me any cable makes me feel like i am in VR jail. But I am jealous of the fov and resolution of course
I'm glad that you addressed the accessibility concerns. There should be options that let you use VR with assistive technology, but especially in competitive games, such assist options should come with a penalty compared to what an average player can achieve with physical movement and some practice. Speaking from my own experience: I had a period in life when I couldn't speak for months, and being able to use VR Chat and socialize with others through text-to-speech had _substantial_ benefits to my mental health. Similarly, I can imagine how liberating it is for someone with motor disabilities to be able to experience moving around in VR, even if the limbs are virtual and with scripted animations.
Right! VR shooters look downright comical with how the weapons and hands float through the environments perfectly still. Prospective users are not going to see that and take it seriously with how things are at the moment.
My only issue with requiring sprinting to be done with arm movement and taking away the ability to aim AND sprint is that speedsofters and trained CQB professionals have mastered doing exactly that. They train their upper body to act as a stabilizing gyroscope so that even while their legs are moving their upper body and arms stay relatively still and on target. My solution to this would be to have a similar meta-game to your “footsteps” idea where your sprint speed is still dependent on stick movement with extremely high inertia to disincentivize jitter peeking. Your in-game hands and arms will blend into a fast but predictable animation while holding your gun at high ready and moving quickly, which you’d have to negate by moving your hands in essentially the same motion but reversed. So basically, player is running full speed forward with their IRL arms at high ready. If they do nothing, their characters arms WILL stay up, but will move side to side/up and down very quickly making it hard to aim. A trained, competent player will compensate for this by training their arms to “pull” their characters arms with their real arms in the opposite direction of the animation that causes motion, thus emulating the gyroscopic effect that people who can achieve that in real life have to perfect to do the same.
Another thing that weapon interactions in H3VR do is that you have to learn how to use a speciffic weapon. Sure, you might be able to pick up a gun your enemy dropped, but will you be as efficient with it, especially in stressful scenarios? Just playing Take and Hold mode in H3VR proved to me that in high intensity gunfights you can easily miss the reload, or fumble when you're not familiar enough with your gun, but after using it for a while, you get the excitement from doing it so efficiently, you feel like John Wick!
I think there are some really good points here. I would also like to see more interaction with the environment in future vr shooters. Door controls, light switches, knocking over tables There are a lot of possibilities, depending on how much work the map makers want to put into the play spaces.
Yea this is where VR could shine instead of those changes he said. VR should take more time to implement physics into door opening, using items as cover like shields, pushing over tables to duck behind and stuff like that. VR has a fundamentally difference to Desktop - You stand (most of the time) and have to move the weapon / aim yourself and not use a mouse with 100% accuracy shooting where your monitor points.
I agree with everything you've stated in this video. I believe you have the right approach to how VR shooters should be handled. When VR shooters were becoming popular I thought of all the cool realistic mechanics they would implement only to be moderately let down. If they implemented the mechanics discussed I think it'd be a lot more immersive and a step in the right direction.
This should honestly be the gold standard for VR shooters. The fact that you explained the issues clearly WHILE ALSO explaining possible solutions makes me question why we haven't used these solutions instead. I'm definitely going to play H3VR with physically-based reloading and Controller-based movement since stick drift remains a huge issue and especially with VR controllers.
Blade and sorcery does exactly what you suggest with the CMM + Thumbstick movement. In B&S if you want to move at a walking pace you can simply use the thumbstick, but if you want to run/sprint you have to swing your arms
All of this to say, You cannot treat VR like flatscreen. You must try new things and learn what works and what’s acceptable and what isn’t. Great video, great points.
You might want to reach out to indie VR game developers and share your ideas with them. You could be an inspiring example for those with brilliant ideas and concepts who may lack the opportunity to develop a game on their own.
This was a very interesting take on VR and I do think there's some takeaways that could be make absolutely. That said, I don't think that all of it is as valid. Swinging your arms to sprint, to me, always felt horrible. It's a motion that you do with your legs in real-life, and transposing it to your hands, just because that's all we have in VR doesn't make it feel good. It's no more immersive than the transposing we do with movement on a thumbstick. I completely agree that moving around and taking cover should somehow be implemented more in VR. Watching this video reminded me of playing the excellent game "Wands Alliances", which implemented a lot of these concepts. In Wands Alliances, you move from set position to set position, and each basically becoming your play space. If you had a wall in that position, you had to physically move to it and duck. This made things like blind firing absolutely viable, but the downsides are pretty obvious. If your play space isn't big enough - well, you probably can't take cover at all. That limits the amount of players that even can play the game as intended, something that is devastating in a niche as small as VR is today. Which is probably a contributing factor to why Wands Alliances is pretty much dead these days. There are other considerations to be made than just "more immersion". Things like size of play space required, being able to play for longer sessions without becoming tired, etc. And that's *if* we even blatantly say that things like swinging arms is more immersive - I would argue it's not.
I see VR as the Playstation 1 era of gaming. Where hardware limitations is so big that most games are truly jerry rigging the gameplay together and trying to make sense of it. Without full body tracking and mostly handsfree hardware is so hard to see problems like this being solved across the board, or even solutions being implemented where they're needed. Sure, VR can become great by still using analog controllers, but why? A lot of problems solve themselves out if your hands are the controller.
One thing in worry is if devs actually start using swing movement, is that they won’t make it simply an ergebomic active way to move, but make it be a rush to who can swing their arms the fastest to implement some unnecessary “skill cieling” but ultimately just reward 10 year olds with adhd (I’m thinking stuff like rec room when I say that, it’s just not fun to have to move that quickly, and im someone who plays a lot of beat saber so im not just super athletic) if its implemented km how you proposed with the shooter "demo" it actually seems pretty good in concept, if not hard to impliment, simply putting in set speeds and simple natural movements for inputs simply makes the game more immersive overall and just less jank (I’m too lazy to add grammar rn, so I won’t)
Genius ideas, and it's not just your wonderful sophisticated voice that makes these ideas seem so great! Hoping ALL vr devs see this, and we see less "controller style" gameplay in upcoming vr titles (I think all these ideas would help other genres and titles as well).
Blade and Sorcery actually already uses the controller motion movement as standard. It works exactly how you said it should work. There is normal stick driven movement, but you have to swing your arms to break into a sprint, and it accelerates so it doesn't feel weird. Also, I feel as though a game like Into The Radius would benefit the most out of most of this, since it's supposed to be a realism shooter.
This should be the "I'm going to make a VR shooter" 101. You should figure out how you can target this as much as possible to all the developers that need to see this. I'm gonna try and repost this on different VR dev forums and such, if thats okay.
As much as I see your point on all of it and even agree with you, there's also accessibility to consider (people don't all have enough space or cable length for physical turning, slower smooth turn causes awful motion sickness, etc) and also effort. People don't want to put in effort, its already bothersome strapping on a vr set to your face over just playing games on desktop, so even if it increases immersion I feel like then vr games that already struggle to get an audience due to how small vr user base is and then retention of vr users on top, will just become way too inaccessible and way too much of a hardcore effort learning curve for most people. And that's on top of what I think most vr users actually do use vr for - social vr, in which case most of them aren't gonna prioritize physical effort first. I think all this would be more plausible if vr was already way more adopted than it is and vr hardware more further along in price accessibility and physical comfort accessibility though. This is just my perspective as a vr user though, great video all the same!
And another thing to consider - for example with how precise you need to be with your guns - there's a reason why there's built in leeway, its a compromise because youre holding bulky controllers instead of actually being able to use your fingers for precise physical handling and touch feedback. Def need hardware to advance way more before we can expect movements to translate that precisely
I used to play in a 1x1 meter space and still exclusively physically turned, I have a hard time believing it's that big of a problem when most people who can afford a VR headset are the type of assholes with giant middle class homes with an exclusive dining room on top of their living room and kitchen
@@Lark993 AND don’t forget that you don’t need any external hardware for quest to work not even a TV. So VR (quest) is actually one of the cheapest gaming consoles. Even a smartphone is more expensive nowadays.
Everything should be B&S and H3VR. Not because they are good games (which they are) but because these games are pioneering what SHOULD be VR standards. Weapons should be physical, winning should feel like you won the fight through skill instead of cheese (like how Grimlord feels like swinging a pickaxe until the armored enemy dies) all gun games should be hard to play unless you are willing to learn to use the firearm. I actually had no idea how to use any firearm other than a simple handgun in H3VR, and figuring out how every step of a reload works was 90% of the fun of VR, and it kills me when a game has you move your hand to your waist to reload, or give you crazy mag assist that catches your mag from a meter away.
I agree with 99% of this, except the bending over thing, the amount of times I've bent to grab a dropped magazine or loot something I either A) end up clipping into the collsion becuase the devs didn't think someone would bend over to grab things or B) can't grab it because despite setting my playspace height 3-5 inches higher than my actual floor the item is still below my physical floor
this is an issue on your part and the setup of your VR-Headset / Basestations. When changing your roomscaling limits on your VR-Headset you should also be looking out to set your ground height. In most properly developed games you can pick up things while bending downwards without any clipping.
I disagree. I bend over and fly backwards because my headset moving forwards makes the game think I've stepped into the box/wall (Tabor/Onward) and I specifically set up ground height to alleviate this issue which helps in many games but is a recurring issue in others. In all fairness I am 6' 3" so many games don't account for tall folk but I feel blaming user error while assuming the user has specifically trouble shot is reductive at best. The VR space as a whole I would argue isn't "properly developed" as they often are very janky and suffer from a myriad of software and hardware shortfalls. Sure there are exceptional executions but on the whole we as consumers are fed a sub-par product and just accept it as the norm, which in the overall is what appears to be the through line argument this video makes. The space is failing to meet it's potential and we as consumers are being complacent when we should desire more.
@@jacobgentile3351 Yeah Both of these games have terrible IKs, the game is supposed to understand that you're bending based on the rotation of your headset as well as it's position in relationship to your controllers, getting your virtual body to line up with the real one is a pretty tough job for developers.
I see people saying these games are competitive, so of course it's that way. But I think that misses the point of the video. The fact that we think of them as competitive, so it's fast paced is an example of the problem I think he has. A competitive VR shooter shouldn't have the same gunplay and pace as something like CSGO or Valorant. That's the point of the change in medium, if you want fast paced just play those games. VR should be something that relies on the fact that it has the capability to track the users actual movement, so of course it's going feel different. Trying to negate the abilities of the hardware instead opting to have it feel as much like an xbox controller but you can turn your head is a waste of the VR's capabilities.
So, i do have a movement system that COULD help with the speed problem. It is a bit cartoony, but i hope it helps with the games i wish to make. So when you start to run, you kick off the ground with a slight amount of force, taking a few seconds to reach your top speed, and then having to do the opposite when stopping, sliding a bit on the ground when stopping. And if you happen to strife a lot, the "tripping" mechanic will take care of that every time you strife, start running, stop running, turn, and so on. An invisible "tripping" bar fills up a little, and if you fill it up fully, you trip and fall, and the only way to get up is to push the ground and go forward, then youll get up (which takes a second) and then youll be able to start running again, i haven't tested this in anything, do it might be just annoying, who knows. Also, you can not shoot or reload when you are on the ground. You have to get up before before anything.
16:54 I play alot of airsoft and this is way more accurate to how you move when holding something in you're hands like that. I haven't played a lot of vr but I'm actually a bit disappointed that that's how a lot of players treat playing the game. If you wanted to go really in depth you could also add a small slowdown time when it comes to transitioning from a full on sprint, so you have to judge when to stop sprinting earlier... this comes from sprinting fullboar into walls on accident in real life and getting shot because I couldnt get my gun up in time lol
You need a P90 for the best sprinty sprinty shooty action, IRL. Is the only airsoft gun I've ever used where I could just sprint around like a crazy person and keep my sights perfectly on target like the overly steady VR footage above. Gun fits into your shoulder so well and is so stable that it's like having a head mounted laser gun once you get properly accustomed to it. Love the thing. ( Hence why I couldn't help using this thin excuse to randomly tell you about it. Please excuse. xD )
Nah I'm an airsoft nerd and have alot of gameplay with the p90 your good to rant. Love the platform myself even bought a chop block rail for mine@@UnknownSquid
Please keep up this type of feedback/research/solutions. VR is still young, many will copy what worked 'enough', some will push the envelope. Hope that some will find this well put video, to at least allow it as an option to start. Finding that balance of immersion and game playability will take time but arguments like this will turn that dial in the right direction.
I feel like with reloading a firearm in VR, you would need to actually insert the magazine from the bottom of the gun, and push it in, rather than having it hoovered up by the gun. My proposed solution for this would be for a sort of assist - when the top of the magazine is near the bottom of the firearm, it would tilt towards the bottom of the gun (not with a very strong force, but a slight pull, like you're holding something slightly off-balance in a physics game), and - instead of being sucked up, would be properly angled for you to complete the reload. I believe this would give a more complete H3VR-feeling reload, whilst also being more accessible and less strict. It would feel like you did that reload yourself, because you didn't just put the magazine near the grip of the gun, and have it be reloaded, but you actually pushed the magazine into the gun yourself; This would make reloading alot less gameified, and alot less inconsequential to those who aren't paying any attention or are panicking during the reload. Your voice is soothing by the way, Love your commentary.
This, this highlights all my issues with VR shooters and why I never really got into them! I'm glad someone has finally voiced their opinions on this topic!
Hybrid armswinger (thumbstick movement and swinging arms to move faster) is 100% the best locomotion option to solve this. I'm pretty sure there were some games that use this exact method I just dont recall the names.
The problem with blindfire in vr is that the enemy can take many bullets before dying, it is also hard to hit anything while shooting blindly, so the chances of eliminating enemies are very low and not worth bothering with.
I fundamentally agree with all 3 of your pillars, and moreover STRONGLY agree VR shooters need improvement, but disagree as strongly with respect to how they should be implemented, the reasons for doing so in the first place, and the fixes necessary to amend the issues. tl;dr I almost entirely agree with needing to fix snap-turn, inertia, and reloading (in some instances). However, the entire premise of the video is, "VR should play differently than pancake because it's a different modality - it’s more physical" fair enough, but designers don’t change things in VR for the sake of being able to do them in VR - they should change them because they make sense in the context of the experience they are trying to create. For example, people HAVE the ability to shoot around corners in VR *right now*, but don’t - is it because of the design or implementation of the VR mechanics? No, it’s because in the context of this virtual activity - and, to wit, the same activity in real life - it *doesn’t work* lmao - yes, it’s more “realistic” to be able to spray and pray around the corner, but it isn’t effective for reaching the desired goal in the context of the experience, which in this case, is busting a cap in the enemy’s virtual ass As an example, with respect to weapon sway, as you move, it's entirely secondary to the actual difficulty in aiming a weapon in VR which is orders of magnitude more difficult than on pancake, which is to say nothing of recoil compensation. Weapon sway for the sake of having weapon sway is entirely cosmetic and not at all practical or needed - sure it's more "realistic" but in the sense that Gaben is talking about when he says realism isn't fun, and we play games to have fun. If I'm trying to move forward in a game and have to swing my arms like a fuckin orangutan just to get to my position, that is objectively less fun - fun, as described by him, relates to the game world responding to input intuitively, not mimicking realism 1/1; if it were more fun, people would instinctively swing their arms when running - which you already CAN do - as opposed to taking the path of least resistance to IGNORE that activity. Would adding stricter reloading make Population:ONE, a shooting game about people dropping from orbit into a town to kill each-other while flying and climbing buildings make it more fun? If the answer is NO it’s because the designers are aware of the context and end goal of the experience they’re crafting. To condense your point down, you want a VR shooter sim, which is fine. But to extend that logic out and say that it’s lazy design otherwise is intellectually disingenuous and simply not substantiated by anything other than your opinion. I understand that later in the video you aren't advocating for a dogmatic approach and that it could vary based on the goal of each experience, but you spend the run-time of the video saying those self-same mechanics are lazy and uninspired from an implementation standpoint, which is a slippery-ass slope; should I have to manually refill my mags because it's more realistic? Should I have to manually undo velcro on my chest and remove magazines, or physically strap on a helmet? If we extend that logic outward, you advocate for a 1-1, or near 1-1 experience that mimics realism as much as possible, but the fact of the matter is that a great deal of real life is boring as shit, which is why we play videogames, and the majority of them condense tedious or mundane tasks into a simple abstraction, and the ones that don't are generally closer to sims - which are also fun in their own way! In the video you talk about the path of least resistance, and that it’s lazy - but as you’ve pointed out, humans will do that regardless of the circumstance, so what you're advocating, in this sense, is more resistance, more friction, which is not only less fun for more people, but inevitably ignored by those willing to put in the hours to create a new meta to cheese and take advantage of it. “Yes, but I’m sick of people being able to push buttons to be good” - the people with whom I’ve competed at the highest possible level in VR esports are not simply pushing buttons to be good, they’re putting hundreds, thousands of hours into understanding every aspect of gameplay, what weapons deal the most damage and in which context, how, where, and when to use utility, how to ADS quickly, how to compensate for recoil - which takes hundreds of hours to perfect on each gun - memorizing every pixel of every map and how to take advantage of it, learning to coordinate multiple players, learning to communicate effectively, and a litany of other things that are entirely detached to whether or not they can spin around or crouch real good. You can be super good at reloading your Beretta, but in Pavlov I know that if I have an AK - which may or may not have a slower reload time than a Berreta if you implement restrictive reloading - and I know that while you dump 9 rounds into my chest, I fire once into your face, and helmet or no, you are dead. "Encouraging physical movement [is something] we as designers understand lead to a better experience" ok but to what end? Don’t get it twisted - entering a medium more physical than pancake doesn’t in and of itself either necessitate or imply reliance on moving your whole body. To be clear: VR doesn't give your body freedom in a virtual space, it give your 1. Eyes 2. Ears 3. hands freedom in a virtual space, And without external, often third-party support, crucial physicality WILL NOT be represented in VR, starting most obviously with your legs and feet. If you're saying if you're not moving your legs and turning physically you're not having as good of an experience as someone who has full motion controller tracking and a KatVR? VR is more “physical”, yes, but you are immersing first your head, then your hands, literally NOTHING else, which is why we have people in wheelchairs able to play Pavlov competitively. And a lot of the aversion to crouching has nothing to do with the act itself, and in fact, I would argue that most people, especially those unfamiliar with VR are more inclined to act upon what they see in VR physically as evidenced by compilation after compilation of people leaping to their demise only to destroy their face and TV, but usually more to do with the fact that developers either on the platform side or on the game side can't seem to implement height consistently. Further still you have to bend over to pick up your weapon in nearly every VR shooter out there, and in all of the competitive ones that I know of. I'm not resistant to moving more in VR, I'm resistant to the reasons for which you have stated we should. I play seated because I've only a small place to play, and I've broken my ceiling fan twice - as you say, that's a me issue. However, having played easily 10,000 hours of VR across several accounts and games, thousands of those hours standing, I can tell you there is literally zero difference in my gameplay. There is no advantage, there is no increase or decrease of fun, it's literally just a different position. I think that fundamentally, a chunk of the video is addressing a problem that doesn't exist, at least for VR shooters, because their real life counterpart is simply NOT physical beyond 1. Running - which you can't mimic in VR without a treadmill 2. Crouching/turning - which exists 3. Aiming/firing - which exists 4. Reloading - which could use work 5.throwing objects - which exists It’s not exactly the best genre to express the physicality of VR to begin with, so it seems like you’re uncomfortable being wet when you’re the one who got in the pool. There could absolutely be fixes to inertia and movement in VR shooters, and I 1000000% agree with reloading being more deliberate and strict. 1/2
But you don’t even mention extremely important aspects of VR shooters like the ability to THROW THINGS - nades, knives, flashbangs, magazines, and you HAVE to throw them correctly every time to hit the target you’re aiming for, an act that on pancake is condensed down to a single press of a button, but which in VR, can - as I can attest to, having literally fucking BLOWN UP MY ENTIRE TEAM MULTIPLE TIMES - be catastrophic if you miss 90% of the physically inherent to shooters and shooting in real life is already present - crouching, going prone, spinning/turning, throwing, and you’re focusing on….weapons swaying while you move? I mean, the inertia part I get, and I totally agree with stricter reloads in most shooter experiences. But most of the physicality is already present. We have this dude named PGATI in Pavlov, and his signature move is literally crouching in a bush to disguise himself. With the exception of real-life inertia so you can't jiggle-peak, you can already sway your arms while you move, you can already physically crouch or spin, you can already throw, catch, and go prone, so the real issue you have is that some people can do it with a button push, and that's a problem for you, when no one and nothing is preventing you from doing those things in-game. In the end it came off a bit pedantic, and it seemed like anyone who would disagree with you would do so because of their inability to think critically, or because of a tendency to adopt a herd mentality, which seems a bit wild considering 99% of what you’re asking for already exists in shooters in one way or another, but not altogether in a single package, and because the majority of what you’re saying is a matter of opinion. One of the bigger issues behind the three pillars you’ve mentioned is that WEVE HAD the games with fixes you’re proposing, and they’re being shut down. One of the all-time best representations of the full physicality of competitive VR games I’ve ever played, Echo Arena was just unceremoniously shut down. This game was a paragon of the principles which you mentioned, realistic inertia, physics-based movement, teamwork, everything was ABSOLUTELY astounding for a competitive VR environment, and you had to practice hard to aim the disc well. There are issues with VR shooters, and competitive VR experiences at large. But I would argue the issues are distinct from what is presented here. 2/2
I really like some of the things outlined in this video, but I do think there are some issues with it 1) In some of the games you took clips from (ghosts of tabor as an example), the weapons system is already extremely strict in the way you interact, which helps achieve the game's goal of fully immersing the user in the dangerous environment. 2) People who constantly ADS are typically people who've only ever played PC before and are new to VR - in games like pavlov, breachers and tabor ADS isn't used at close range often (if at all), with people learning to pointfire. People who play VR shooters don't ADS often, they instead learn to know where their weapon is pointing and use that skill in most gunfights. 3) Making gunplay and movement more strict would make any game a lot less beginner-friendly, and would likely drive new people away from a game I still really like a lot of the ideas (like more physical movement) and people are working on bringing things like that into reality with for example the KAT VR treadmill, but the main thing to keep in mind is what games are hoping to achieve with their mechanics. Games like Ghosts of Tabor (which you should try out to see what I'm talking about) manage to do what you're talking about while games like pavlov offer a more fast-paced, almost arcade style experience. Each game has it's own goals, and there's no reason to say a game like pavlov or breachers should change the way they play just because they can. I can see where you're coming from, believe me, but just try to be less of an UnderTheMayo
People who play VR shooters absolutely do ADS often, but in this case, at least in that little section there it seemed like he takes issue with the fact that people ADS in VR shooters at all which is confusing considering that the video is predicated on realism in VR shooters, and that's generally how uh.... you shoot
@@MistereXMachina If what he takes issue with is ADSing as a whole, it's a little weird, but I took it as him taking issue with people ADSing the way they do in flat screen shooters, like holding ADS around corners for example, which nobody does
Current vr doesnt have enough feedback to actualy support proper immersion. For example, to load a magazine into a rifle in vr, there's this magnet effect, meaning as long as you arent being crazy with your hand positioning, the mag is going in. This ruins immersion since putting mags into guns properly is often not a super straightfoward operation, even if its a really well tested and proven design, like an M4 or a glock. But then, consider the alternative, that the VR simulation demands the same precision required IRL to load a gun. You'd have to deal with a very awkward operation, since there's no tactile feedback (unless you happen to have a really exprnsive rig that has the same weight and shape of the gun you're loading in vr).
I already do this is in Pavlov, crouch and lying down has no button, you have to do it physically. I also never use the joystick to turn myself around, i always do it irl, same with sidestepping when i am looking around a corner and being shot at. Also, by doing this it improved my gaming a lot, i win so many matches😊
i agree with everything in this video + your voice is actually amazing. Stricter reloading techniques would be perfect in a competitive VR game but not too strict. it could be seen as a perfect demonstration of how you reload a weapon under pressure, but the character you play as is likely a soldier who has extensive training in gun handling, so the margin of perfection for handling a reload shouldn't be too precise, otherwise you'd just be playing a character who has never touched a gun before
I remember when I started playing Pavlov for the first time I was always peaking corners and moving around physically and also blind firing but I stopped doing that after a while since I would rarely get any results from that I still do turn physically in vr but I wish more games encouraged physical movement because it just makes the game more enjoyable then button presses
I gave up on peeking around corners in Pavlov because Pavlov (still!) has ZERO lean function. You're basically stepping out of cover and exposing the entire length of your body when you try.
On top of that, Blind fire is... not all that effective. It works for suppressive fire IRL - because a single round from a wild spray is still one huge reason not to be out in the open... But especially in games with high TTK - you're far better off popping around the corner yourself and getting shots on target.
The hardest thing is game balance. Some people don't have room / are disabled in some way for room scale. For example, I have about 2b2 meters at best and my spine is not so hot. So going prone IRL and sometimes crouching is an issue. If button presses could be matched up to the average physical movement time, it would be better than having slightly nerfed button presses, as that would cut player numbers.
I don't see why an experience which is primarily sold on the physicality should be nerfed for everyone for the sake of the disabled. I'm sorry, I know it's harsh as fuck, but being disabled in VR is like being blind for flat screen gameplay.
@@doltBmB Because games have to sell copies. The VR playerbase is not that large, and physical limitations as broad as "having a small room" are not exactly rare.
One could also say that developers are trying to target the general demographic in most cases that've maybe just got a VR headset and don't understand the vr interaction, and thus they make it simpler so the player doesn't lose interest and quit playing/refund their game. However, great points. What I mentioned doesn't work as an excuse for every game.
I think you should also mention the limitations of current gen hardware. Physically turning my head i have to contend with the weight, bounce, and cable of my headset. I also have to turn more often because of the reduced FOV and lack of other sensory queues. So the turn button is an easy way to compensate. Reloading and picking up stuff from the ground is where it really falls apart. What happens when you jam a mag into a gun the wrong way IRL? You feel it in your fingers and your arm is stopped moving up. In VR? You arm goes straight through and you do/don't drop the mag. There may be some sound/haptic but that's about it. Ok, so you try to pick up the fallen mag and oh, your VR floor is above your real floor, after recalibrating you try again but the mag is on a lower piece of the level goemetry than you (eg down a ramp) so you have to move over it or calibrate to be always standing in the foor a bit. Finally reaching the mag you're about to scoop it up whichever way is easiest and dextrously manipulate it to a usable grip but then you remember that, oh, you have a hand full of controller and that the game is reducing it to a single point in space. This is my rambly way of saying that emulating RL physics in VR isn't always a good idea and we should come up with analogues that work with imperfect hardware. Take the grav gloves from Alyx: you perform a flick and have to catch the item flying by (if it didn't already hit something else). They avoid the above metioned issues without being "i want that item, teleport it to my hand".
Totally agree with those limitations. I think there must be a happy medium where some of the ideas in this video are implemented, but in a way that's reasonable given those very real limitations (lack of physical interaction/feedback, inconsistencies between your real space and the VR space, lack of dexterity/tactile feedback/precision due to the abstractions inherent in motion controllers, occasional minor tracking issues, etc.). Particularly I think some assistance is reasonable for weapon interactions. I'm sure there's a balance point where skill is still required, but the game helps nudge players in the right direction to an appropriate degree. The gravity gloves seemed like a good solution that still utilized VR interaction instead of simple button presses. I could see how they wouldn't be optimal for every game though, as that style of interaction would be very immersion breaking without some sort of setting/narrative justification for it. But other VR-centric solutions could be found for other games.
@@GreyMatterShades For example reloading could be quite generous but play an animation aligning the mag if you aren't precise, sorta like animation canceling in some engines.
@@g_glop Some VR games already use position blending (interpolating between the place your hand actually is and where it should be) to align the mag in the right spot as long as you get it close. There are definitely ways to help players with fine motor finesse without making reloads pure arcade baby mode. Of course if they do it too heavily, then it'll feel too easy/hand-holdy. It's all about balance.
The controller motion movement is surprisingly similar to how it is in Blade and Sorcery, a movement system I absolutely adore. Normal thumbstick for slow movement/strafing and swing your arms to move faster. It is incredible in a sword fighting game, having to lower your shield and actually move your arms to sprint away or towards an enemy.
Was looking for a comment like this ^^ It shows, that we are still at the beginning of finding out how VR "works" for us, but I am sure in the long run we will get something like an "unified standard", the same we have in 2D games right now (WSAD, CTRL and SPACEBAR have developed over time, same goes for shooter in consoles) It might end up with a "simulated" movement mode and a "simplified" movement mode, similar to something like Arma vs CoD.
I came to the comments to talk about armswinger from h3vr because i love it so much and it nearly completely solves the issue where you can move super fast with no weapon sway. but then you brought it up in your video. This video just keeps getting better and better.
@12:10 "Having to twist my wrist causes problems" - nah, spinning the gun around gives extra style points and boosts DPS like a minigun of course. Buillets spin for accuracy, so spinning the gun as well just makes it more accurate, clearly. Jokes aside, this is an excellent video with clear examples showing your points in a great way. I don't have much to add really as I agree with basically everything you've laid out, especially in regards to reloading. Though I personally felt that Boneworks and HL Alyx had great mechanics for this, HL alyx less so other than the shotgun which I always found immensely satisfying being able to flick open and closed to replace shells. Of course that could be mostly skipped with button presses but still, the option to flick your wrist was there and satisfying to execute, and the reloads also show a bit of weight behind them which is always appreciated. Boneworks as I remember is quite a bit more lenient as far as accuracy of reloads, but could lead to plenty of interesting interactions if you chose to entertain yourself (throwing the gun up and catching it with a fresh mag, that kind of thing). Definitely strays from the "realism" aspect but still provides an interesting mechanic more so than the quick 2 frame reload swaps you see in other games. As always, keep up the great work! Glad to finally see this video in it's final form.
Nerfing artificial turn will have the biggest impact on VR playstyles. I try to play purely physical turn but need to use artificial occasionally for cable management and it's so easy to fall into the trap of using snap turn during regular gameplay. It's just too strong for such little effort that the desire to win at a game will pull you into using it.
Finally someone covers this topic, exactly what I was thinking since I got into VR. Sadly, people are just too lazy to immerse themselves, thinking that VR will do all the job for them. Playing seated, with virtual crouching, stick turning, and all other stuff that excludes any movement makes VR just a 3D screen with ability to move your hands, nothing more. No wonder why most of the VR headsets end up collecting dust or being sold on aftermarket. This one of the reasons why VR's growing is very slow and a lot of people are sceptical about it. Man, when I see someone playing wireless and still using stick turning I just don't understand why. Adding to locomotion methots, something that could be mentioned in the video is walk in place. I was using it for quite a long in many games (not multiplayer tho) with "VRocker" software, and despite some flaws it does a really good job for immersion if set up properly. It may be a bit hardcore way to move in multiplayer especially, but it still has some advantages over arm swinging. For example, I think that lowering your gun to run is a bit too restrictive, why can't I just run and gun? With running in place you could do that, but your bullet spread would be increased "naturally".
Honestly I think the ultimate goal *should* be eradicating virtual movement entirely. It’s the whole point of VR. But we’re currently limited by the technology. We don’t have any great but reasonably priced solutions to true physical movement, i.e. walking being entirely based on the movement of your legs. “Freeaim” shoes seem promising, but idk how far they are from being commercially available and especially reasonably priced.
This video has made me understand why I felt let down by (multiplayer) VR shooters and got bored very quickly as people just abused those movement hokes. I am a software developer and this video made me want to make a VR player controller template and experiment with it, I've never had an excuse to start making VR games or experimenting with them in general and now that I've watched this video, it really makes me want to see and feel what you described once implemented in game, so there, I'll see if I have the time and dedication to make it, but you know, it could be a very good challenge that could lead me into making games which is what I've always wanted to do but never actually had any unique idea to start with. Thank you for showing everyone what *could* be done with VR and it's inputs, and I hope game developers start implementing these ideas, and once again I can't wait to see and feel it.
This is an interesting take, however I think it’s not the ONLY way to take advantage of VR as a medium in ways flat screen games can’t I think bonelab is a great example, maybe all these things could work with it, but it’s not JUST a shooter For example, something like the avatar system would not work as well with this level of physicality, hell I’d argue a lot of the games thematic thesis is sort of built on the grounds that entirely physical movement isn’t always the best. It’s also worth acknowledging that this type of design likely will be more adopted when getting a setup with full body tracking is more accessible, but in current day, vr is in many ways a really well tracked wii strapped to your face It would be cool to see some of this stuff as options now, but I think the actual mass adoption of vr, and creation of unique artistic experiences should be put before this, because there does become a point where one could argue the question “why don’t you just go play paintball?” I welcome VR having intentionally cumbersome design in some cases, I love death stranding and fromsoft games, but I think as a medium it needs to evolve just a bit more before that. I do agree with the idea that good design in flat screen can equal bad design in vr, although in a lot of different ways
I can tell you where the resistance to move comes from.. I work ~70h a week building events.. Usually my stepcounter crosses 10000 before coffee, usually at the end of the day it's broken and just says "TILT" much like me... When building conventions you're on your knees the entire day crawling taping down wires etc... When doing music events, I'm hanging in the trusses like a monkey all day... I don't need more physicality in my life right now.. I do stand playing VR.. Unless racing or flight/space-simming (inherent sitting activities). But physically crouching just doesn't give my muscles the rest I need, to be on my knees all day the next day.. Or to walk between 2 stands that are on opposite sites of a huge convention centre with materials and tools the entire day. I do have a big passion for VR and less time for it then I'd want.. so I'd like to be able to experience my VR in a not so physical way.. That's apart from the lack of playspace... I have 1 room I have to do everything in.. so my double bass is there, my guitars, my piano, my saxophones... and everything else.. So I've to be rather careful swinging my arms if not in a certain orientation in my room... It's not I don't want to move, it's more that my body sometimes needs a bit of a break from being physical, just to recover.. And being physical in my house is extra hindered by the lack of space.. Thing is, the housing situation is like really bad, and it can take up to 25 years to actually get another place atm... Or you'd have to be filthy stinking rich... (I just manage 2 of those regularly, and 2 out of 3 ain't bad right, except for ... yeah)
Would you be then opposed to using same accessibility features as someone who is similarly but permanently limited in their movement/reaction/stamina? Or just in a separate "league"?
@@NightMind0 I wouldn't mind playing with other people that use that functionality if there needs to be a separation.. I just don't think the difference is that big that it would warrant a separation at all... Let people choose how they want to play their game (yes there are maybe some exceptions I'll be getting to that in a bit), and enjoy the game as you want to enjoy it by any means... I wouldn't mind people adapting the speed of say crouching to make it balanced.. I would mind people taking that option away.. There's pros and cons for both... If I physically move, it takes my body less time to understand my orientation because my inner-ear made the movement as well so it'll take me less time to proper aim at something after turning.. The finetuning in aiming is the same you still need to point and aim after turning. And I would suggest that IRL turning has an advantage there., So I don't agree that it's that much of an advantage... using one or the other.. I think that Mr VR Voice is making it bigger than it is, and bigger than it needs to be... I do fully agree with the reloading thing.. make it as realistic as possible. That it'll take time, and marginally less if you're skilled. Making sprinting and ADS-ing impossible or really difficult seems like a good idea, Just the physicality in my opinion makes less of a difference then Mr VR Voice would like to make it seem... It's a choice, it's also my choice.. And I don't like people proposing choices should be taken away for no good reason at all... I do get if there is a CS or R6 kinda competitive game in VR (Like Vail wanted to be) you can, as a dev take a stance and make everyone play on the same terms... I get that, I don't mind that... but in games like GoT or ZC or Contractors or Pavlov or even Onwards, it really doesn't matter all that much.. In the end your reflexes and your cool are going to make the difference, not if you turn with a stick or IRL.. And it should be like this, that everyone can have fun with a game... It seems silly to exclude an entire group of gamers that either can't or don't want to be physical in their gaming. I just challenge the notion that not being physically involved make the game easier to play... It's different, but it also has it's drawbacks vs IRL movement.. So I think it's rather balanced having the 2 coexist if done right (I'm not against introducing physicality in games, as an option).. But physicality in gaming imo should be a choice. It's a GAME... Keep in mind a lot of people that can't for some reason be physical will turn to games to experience something they can't do IRL (And for some of those it's running after other people with a gun).. And you shouldn't bar those people from also enjoying those games.. And again, I will make an exception to that for purely competitive games, with a huge competition behind them. Sure I get you want a level playing field... But otherwise games are there to be enjoyed by everyone regardless. And therefore should be accessible to everyone.. I also don't subscribe to the analysis that this is THE factor holding development in VR back. That all leads back to old dogs and old tricks... Do what you know... But that's very typical to the industry... Because of investors.... If you want to know what is holding the entire industry back.. Look at investors and their "want" for safe choices....
@@jazzdirt I respect that. Also, definitely agree that a casual game (such as single-player, coop or even a casual multiplayer) can still use these features as a toggle, not remove completely. This video seems mostly targeted at (semi-)realistic competitive shooters and the way these simplifications and reduced physicality cause same gameplay patterns we have already seen in PC gaming as opposed to breeding new ones. Proposed changes can be quite drastic, but I would guess it's a push-and-pull balancing between making enough change to see results and scaling it back closer to the equilibrium. At least I would hope so. Accelerometer aim is still a joke on a phone, years later...
@@NightMind0 In another reply I also said that a competitive shooter actually used in competition, money on the line and all.. The dev should be free to limit players to 1 playstyle, so it's a level playing field. A game like Vail was trying to be, CS in VR (minus the player base unfortunately). I would totally get that... But even then maybe in casual mode you should leave those options open (although that might open the door to cheating, since the code then is already in the game, yeah maybe keep actual competition games clean)... But as long as games are played for fun, you should keep them accessible even for people with disabilities that might not be able to do the physical things but still want to have fun in VR... And Ghosts of Tabor for me still falls in that category.. Vail keep it pure... Breachers, nja, breachers is not going for realism per se.... but it is a competitive-like title... Kinda trying to be R6 (falling way short imo, don't get me wrong it's a fun game, but it's not quite there yet). But R6 has way more options when it comes to penetrable surfaces.. That that makes R6 way more tactical.. You can make your own sight lines..(provided the surfaces between you and what you want to see are all penetrable) That makes R6 way more tactical... I do like that Breachers doesn't have a gazillion gadgets... VS R6 Like seriously, in season 3 I already thought the amount of gadgets was getting out of hand.. And it's only gotten worst...I do like the drone everyone has.. And some of the camera thingies.. But the amount of gadgets in R6 is way out of hand...
@@jazzdirt I kinda think that, considering this would be an uncharted territory for VR shooters, new games might as well adopt only one hyper-realistic controls scheme at least initially, as part of its launch. It is healthy for games in new media (which VR kinda still is) to experiment with controls and the flexibility and limitation of the design space. Existing games might try some as options, but I don't think they should do a 180 switch immediately, that would be too much of a betrayal. And since we're talking new games vs old ones, no one would be taking away your preexisting favorite game. And by the time you're looking for a new one, hopefully there would be some that learned on past experiments and mistakes (kinda like first 3d games happened)
1) Movement acceleration promotes more stationary engagement. Where, in a firefight, it's better to stand still behind cover rather than to move to another spot for cover/positioning. It also has a clear gatekeep depending on how much room you actually have to move around in. One with more room to physically move around in has a greater advantage than one with minimal room. Example: Two players spot each other in an open area. P1 has the ability to take 1-2 wide steps vs P2 that only has enough space to lean/tilt. P1 has an advantage for moving to cover by both physically taking a wide step and virtually moving to negate the acceleration, while P2 is still stuck with acceleration in the open. I'm not saying that the acceleration would be slow as molasses or that this benefit doesn't already exist, but this changes a very generic situation into a penalty for someone not having that space. 2) Instead of movement acceleration, I would do twitch deceleration. Where, if the game detects rapid left/right movement, the characters speed starts decelerating. This better penalizes the specific action rather than general movement. 3) Another downside for arm movement is if you move your arms to either melee, rapidly turn to aim, or change/reload weapons; you risk moving out of position. 4) Instead of forcing everyone to use hybrid turning and vignetting, just have the arms lag behind slightly when snap turning. This keeps the snap turning for motion sickness, lets the in game model adjust more naturally, and keeps your penalty for not physically moving. I do agree with some things and I understand your suggestions is for promoting more physical movement to justify the benefit/need for VR. But many of your nerfs risk turning VR tedious if they were all implemented. Your arguments would better benefit a select niche or feel one could consider rather than telling everyone what every VR shooter should be aiming for.
Another thing I want devs to start looking into is using your voice in games. Like telling NPCs to do something rather than just pushing a button to "talk". This would open a whole new dimension of interaction in VR.
I could see this happening in the near future since we already have the technology of voice to text, chat GPT that is capable of believing it is a character with a set backstory(so it would know it is a scientist or soldier and talk like they would), and voice deepfakes for npc saying unlimited things with human voices.
Imagen the NPC’s in GTA 6 have chat GPT built into there behavior so they can dynamicly plead for their life to the player on a future hover military rocket shooting pink aircraft
Reading through the comments, it seems most of the people that disagree with the points brought up in the video cite accessibility as the main problem with the ideas presented. The argument, that these potential solutions to the bland state of VR shooters, are designed to exclude those with limited mobility, misses the purpose of the video. The concept of these "difficulty tweaks" is to provide a potentially enhanced experience for those that wish to partake in them. Developers are given the choice the fall on either side of this fence, but previously only decided to view it from a distance or not even consider that which could bring them closer to using the full potential of 6DoF movement. There will always be those that, be they developers or players, will prefer to stay with the current systems. However, denying that these concepts be even considered is closer to saying that bike races shouldn't exist because "What about people in wheelchairs?" or "I'm too tired at the end of a work day to ride in the Tour de France." than actually being concerned about the accessibility of these potential "games", if you can even call them such at that point. Some gain great enjoyment out of strenuous, physically demanding analouges to their favorite sport or fantasy, hence such activities as virtual races using pedal machines for cyclists, and paintball or airsoft for more on topic examples. The concept of VR hardware and software, to immerse oneself in a simulated world where you can do and be *anything*, is decades old, but the moment technology begins to give us even the smallest taste of what could come next, the obvious fact that people who experience the world differently would thus also experience a virtual would differently, holds us back, and makes us choose to poorly emulate that which already exists. This video only exists to help build the key that would unlock the door to creativity we can't even imagine yet. There will hopefully be a day when those bound to wheelchairs can walk and exhausting, all day work is a thing of the past, but neither can be achieved by restricting advancement with the fear that those whom you believe must be coddled in a blanket made of the assumption that they can't do anything for themselves, must be held above all else. Necessity may be the mother of all invention, but Dreams of the Future is most certainly the father.
Love it, totally agree with this. I find when I stop using the turn buttons and physically move for everything a game become much more immersive and enjoyable.
I'm not eloquent. I don't have a RUclips channel. thank you for expressing your opinions. i understand that you don't hate flat screen games. People who haven't played extensively in VR won't understand, I'm sure.
I have 2000 hours in VR shooters and I find some if his points counter productive. Realism =/= fun. Physicality < Fun. Some of these ideas don't take into consideration other forms of solution. Like just nerfing straife movement, like Pavlov did. He did end up mentioning a solution for crouch spam which I agree with, slowing it down to prevent abuse, Breachers is plagued with this.
Yeah I’ll be returning to that in due course. I have my issues with the game’s AI being laughably easy to cheese which put me off, but I respect the whole package very much nonetheless.
A big reason why people use snap turn is because of the big headsets on your face. They are heavy and clunky. Trying to turn around as fast as possible might not only make you have to aim down sights again, but also adjust your headset as it slid from the sudden motion
100% agreed. Specially on the snap turn it takes so little effort to do so much. Its worse than a "flick" on a normal FPS. I used to use smooth turn until i realized the i was at a big disadvantage.
We also need better controllers that are designed for proper accessories, like gun stocks. There's no good solution for these because many controllers have no proper mounting points. All 3rd-party accessories require some jank system of tubes and clamps with horribly unrealistic ergonomics (in my opinion). Bolt-action rifles in VR? Forget about it. Also, prepare to spend over 100 bucks for one. It's shocking how none of the VR manufactures have addressed this, aside from Sony's PlayStation VR Aim Controller. Even the Nintendo Wii had a gun stock accessory. I designed my own 3D printed adaptable gun-stock for the Quest 2 controllers and while it's OK, it's not perfect because there's a lot of trade-offs between stability, mounting options, weapon types, and so on. I still haven't figured out a good system for bolt-action rifles and probably won't because I can't use it on the Quest 3 because the Q3 controllers don't have the ring I used to mount everything. In fact, it's almost like Meta specifically designed the Quest 3/Pro controllers so you can't mount anything to them, without modifying them. I'm hoping that hand tracking will get better and we won't even need the controllers and can instead just pick up a rifle-shaped object and use that as the controller.
You hit so many nails on their heads with this video. I love VR's potential as a medium, but I fundamentally cannot stand how the software has been developed. With one exception. H3VR. It does *so* much right, I have hundreds of hours in it, and nothing else (VR-wise). It's certainly far from perfect, but the fundamentals are there. I do admit I haven't given a whole lot of other games a chance, though. As for your specific points, I'd say the issues with armswinger would be best solved by having hip-based directionality (using an additional tracker). Your hips naturally determine where you move, so you've got the "encourage more physical movement" ticked, then you also have your heads and hands independent of your movement direction. Next, regarding more precise reloads, I'd actually argue it needs to go further than H3. Because of its wide arsenal, every gun is hit or miss on how forgiving and finnicky it is. But for the most part, there is still a lot of "oh you can have it" magic in there. I will say it is difficult because IRL, you have SIGNIFICANTLY more dexterity when it comes to actually feeling and manipulating objects, so maybe it's fair. Regardless, those games aren't here, and I find that incredibly disappointing. Maybe one day, though!
Really wish the movement standard in VR was as you described. A big benefit of VR gaming is the exercise that you can get out of it, but pretty much every FPS I play never gets my heart rate up because all of the movement is just the analog stick. It is way less immersive than the running method you described from cover to cover
Speaking of H3VR's unforgiving nature, I think the precision should be scaled back simply because of the handicap that in VR, you can't go by feel. With a real gun, you can feel if you've got the magazine lined up properly, but in VR, you need to use your eyes.
Well you just boiled down that creeping sense of dissatisfaction I’ve had with VR since the Vive came out in ~2016. Bravo my friend. And it’s not just FPS games, game makers in general seem to be just barely scratching the surface of what’s possible and it irks me to no end how little I find myself using my body in a medium that SHOULD get me to MOVE.
13:25 - sway arms whilst holding gun = increased movement. This is brilliant. A terrific idea.
Many of the ideas you pitch are very good, but this one is a great example of the many ideas here. The central theme being physicality = more fun in VR. Games that capitalise on this aspect of VR tend to do VERY well, like SuperHot as a prime example. Mr VR Voice, this is the first time I've seen one of your videos and you've just earned yourself a new subscriber. Nicely done.
I'll also add, we've seen the bulk of VR titles be merely things that have worked in the old medium be retro-fitted to the new. There's PLENTY of room for innovation, and too few people attempting it. The ground is so fertile with possibilities that it's maddening not to see more attempts being made. Hopefully videos like yours will inspire others.
I hope so too.
Bro listed every single issue I've had with VR Shooters in one video. If there will be ever a shooter like you described in the future, it will be my all time favourite game, ever.
Maybe it's time we actually take the comfort ratings of VR games seriously. Not everyone may be able to handle a VR shooter like this but that's okay because the people who can handle it will be able to enjoy a new and refreshing experience. I'd hate to bar off people who cant handle something like that but maybe as technology advances and motion sickness and disorientation become less of an issue more and more or even all of VR shooters will be able to enjoy a refreshing experience like this. Great video, I enjoyed it a lot.
The lack of actions that require physical input as well as the lack of good, non-janky physics based actions a player can take in VR shooters means the players will almost always play these games as if they were flatscreen FPSes, because they are undistinguishable than said FPS games (in gameplay anyways)
i can very easily see this man sitting by a roaring fire in his fireplace with a good book to be narrated while gently smoking on a cigar
my issues with more movement in vr shooters comes from
1) cables, being tethered and getting caught up in or tripping over cables, needing to physically flick around, stepping on a cable both yanking your head down and potentially damaging your headset isn't ideal.
2) having to recenter yourself within your playspace. Imagine the following, you take one step to duck into cover, finish the engagment, stand up moving vitually to exit the room, only to duck in the same direction as you encounter another enemy outside of the door, bodyslamming into your wall in the process.
it really isn't great, and for those of us that have expensive tech (monitors, TVs, etc...) in the same playspace the risk of damage isn't worth it.
2.5) moving the world so you remain in the same virtual space while recentering yourself physically feels really bad, its tedious and it reminds you that your actually in another dimention more than just sliding around the world.
3) since the worlds themselves are much bigger than your playspace, your going to need to move virtually to get to the majority of places anyway, so the default instinct when you have to move is using the same method to move that you have been, adding physical positioning within your playspace to move into cover faster then becomes less intuitive and something that you have to think about, and when combined with point 2 sometimes its not even possible, and loosing a fight because you reached the edge of your playspace, its not a issue of player skill, its the games mechanics fighting against you, which feels unfair.
4) motion sickness, even if your physically moving around more there is still a slight delay between when you turn your head and the display reflecting it. the more you expose yourself to this delay the more likely you are to get motion sick, its not as bad as additional virtual movement but it can be an issue for some. headsets also have inerta, and the heavier/less compact ones have a tendancy to slide slightly during extreme motions, which further exaggerates this effect.
4.5) also to this effect most games feel "floaty" because they use an instantaneous velocity to control movement, acceleration in vr is also a cause of motion sickness expecially when the acceleration and expected movement dont line up, for example, you release the joystick and take a step back, but since your still decellerating you end up still moving foward, it really doesn't feel good.
these are just inherent limitations of the medium, outside of "full dive vr" it's going to be a factor to consider when designing games.
Good points! Taking advantage of the VR medium also means that it's less accessible to people which makes it more niche, but the more static it is, the more people think "why would I put my headset on when I can just play it on my monitor with less hassle". That's the catch 22.
These issues are very true, although I still wish for these ideas to be implemented in a game. Some games simply aren't meant to fit everyone's preference or physical capabilities. Taking these risks of accessibility for immersion is an important step to pushing VR technology and its possibilities. It's why I love Boneworks for its ambitious strides in making a more physical and engaging vr experience
The fact that *I* an untrained civilian, can reload an ak 47 in less than a second in vr, is absurd.
I mean ssd's are really amazing And on the consumer end you're not even seeing a fraction of the potential as they handicap them.. Now if only we could put them into real.. Excuse me I have a date with a grimmel and a neural interface and a lotA lot of antiseptic
@@JackWse i think you replied to the wrong guy
@@MrHocotateFreight see, the issue is I have NEVER handled an actual gun, and in VR it takes zero skill, it's too forgiving.
As long as your mag sorta kinda aligns, you're good.
I've been using guns all my life, and reloading an AK in under a second is something that I can't even do due to just the way an AK works
Seeing people who don't know how a gun works in vr look for where the mag goes in or how to change the weapon is already punishing enough to take some of my friends out of a game
Had no idea Liam Neeson was this passionate about VR games.
This is genius. The only thing in this I am not completely on board with is the visual distortion suggestion when using the quick snap turning. As I could move my eyes in addition to my head in real life and avoid any form of vision distortion. Other than that everything else in this is gold. I would love for games to implement things such as this. It definitely can make the games feel so distant with no gun sway while moving/snap turning and let's them have laser like accuracy and pull off some incredibly unrealistic kills that seemingly defeat the entire purpose of wanting to play a game in VR. My personal appeal with VR shooters is to use my body to play the game such as this.
Videos like this really put into perspective what virtual “reality” could really be. Your fixed footage looks truly immersive
you sold me with just the voice alone
i feel like i have the most well versed VR butler pitching me all of this and i adore it
sorry i'm high
RUclips's algorithm is gold for suggesting this to me. As a VR dev, I released a demo of my new shooter about a week ago now. Aside from the generally positive feedback, I was surprised at how many were begging for snap turn to be added. I was never a fan of it, from day one starting VR. As it turns out though smooth turning simply dosen't rub everyone the same way and that is to be respected. Had to patch in snap turn as default about a day later.
I can't understate how much I love general point of this video though. Let's all begin designing better.
“I was surprised at how many were *begging for snap turn to be added.*”
Yeah I bet they were.
It‘s the motion sickness. Most players simply haven’t developed their VR legs compared to VR dev with years of experience.
After about 5 years of using VR smooth turning is the only thing that still consistently makes me motion sick.
@@thebillyd00 Oh yeah, done wrong it'll make you throw up before anything else. I find that adding just a bit of acceleration from zero then deceleration helps tremendously. But it seems like many devs skip even this step and just let you adjust turn speed.
The best solution is to remove smooth turning so you can only turn IRL. No motion sickness for anyone that way.
Yeah, I know too many people are stuck playing sitting or whatever. A man can dream, though...
Competitive gamers will cry for accessibility while ignoring their completely incomprehensible gameplay that would make a sailor puke.
I think something big that the current industry doesn't want to see is that current VR is just a slice of future VR. The more we treat it like full dive sooner, the more intuitive it will be later. VR games aren't just normal games with your head on a swivel, it's virtual *reality* -putting the player into the game.
hard to disagree with anything in this video, you've not only raised issues but also suggested realistic solutions to them, bravo
the problem is how backwards the developers are for majority of todays vr titles, like, ONLY NOW are they realizing maybe the players should reload their weapons manually as opposed to dumbing it down to a single button press... im looking at you killing floor incursion... DISAPPOINTMENT!
so with that in mind, we're probably going to have to wait for another headset generation till the devs catch on their "flatscreen+" games could use a bit more R in VR
I am small VR game developer by myself, and I absolutely love proposed solutions! However, there are certainly accessibility issues.
Eliminating acceleration for locomotion aims to reduce motion sickness. Therefor, I believe simply slowing down overall movement with armswing should suffice.
However, armswing itself presents a problem with playspace. as sitting or standing players may not have enough room to swing within a set threshold.
For firearm interaction accuracy, I completely agree that it should require more skill! But there's VR specific issue with controllers because their shapes are not standardized.
For example, Index Controllers can reload handguns without problem since there's nothing blocking on top or bottom of controller,
on the other hand, Quest 2 Touch Controllers may encounter issues with their ring shaped structure on top of the controller.
eventually, this should be resolved with the introduction of new, better small controllers.
For now, I just hope everyone gets Valve Index, huge playspace, and a VR treadmill. because that'll fix everything.
I hate to see treatments for accessibility getting abused by competitive players though...
thats because you cant be "accessible" to everyone. thats the issue. too many people are tying to accommodate when thats simply life. nothing really stopped Hawking from achieving greatness and no one really accommodated him either, at this point its a weak will that stops most people.
@@3CODKing thats absolutely valid! I do understand that theres no silver bullet for these issues. but if a significant number of people cant play due to motion sickness or other various issues, imo that just isn't acceptable.
honestly this is why I don't play any of the VR FPS games online, it's just hyper efficient cheese and not really immersive physicality like you would expect. sadly a lot of this could be said for other VR games as well, which is why I go out of my way to move more and play less than optimal. I just want to be ready for the future, and not stuck in this weird flatscreen VR hybrid nonsense we have now.
Movement is one of the reasons high level Rumble Vr looks so cool as a spectator. The fast movements look insane
My observations about vr games that feel right and good to play, are the ones that only "help" the player with things that require more sensory inputs. Like touch or fingers. Since a VR game cant provide them, the game has to help in some ways.
its a bit hard to explain, but the main thing is that VR should let players do what they feel they can do, and help with little things they cant. Inserting a magazine is hard, because you don't feel neither the gun, nor the magazine. So a little help is required, but in way its logical, or not annoying. Like seeing your hands slide in the magazine in HL:Alyx. Though Alyx is too helping, its still a good way to visualize the problem with VR.
Something part way between HL Alyx and H3VR for reloading would be perfect imo
On Turning: I have a ton of time in VR (1000+hr) and I always find it interesting that anyone is still using the stick at all to turn. At this point I NEVER touch the right stick to turn. Whether 45 or 180 degree I just physically turn my body. It feels sooo much better and natural. And if you are good it seems to me just as fast. I 100% believe this will be the pref method at some point in VR. Wireless (quest 2or 3) obviously helps a ton with this.
I cant do that for shooter games bcause my cable will get tangled around me (I have to be very careful with my cable as the index cable is very fragile)
@@SlawikFox Yeah that is understandable. This is the main reason I don't use index or big screen. For me any cable makes me feel like i am in VR jail. But I am jealous of the fov and resolution of course
I didn't know Liam Neeson was such a VR enthusiast.
😂👏🏽
I'm glad that you addressed the accessibility concerns. There should be options that let you use VR with assistive technology, but especially in competitive games, such assist options should come with a penalty compared to what an average player can achieve with physical movement and some practice. Speaking from my own experience: I had a period in life when I couldn't speak for months, and being able to use VR Chat and socialize with others through text-to-speech had _substantial_ benefits to my mental health. Similarly, I can imagine how liberating it is for someone with motor disabilities to be able to experience moving around in VR, even if the limbs are virtual and with scripted animations.
The sprinting example looked SO MUCH BETTER
Right! VR shooters look downright comical with how the weapons and hands float through the environments perfectly still. Prospective users are not going to see that and take it seriously with how things are at the moment.
My only issue with requiring sprinting to be done with arm movement and taking away the ability to aim AND sprint is that speedsofters and trained CQB professionals have mastered doing exactly that. They train their upper body to act as a stabilizing gyroscope so that even while their legs are moving their upper body and arms stay relatively still and on target.
My solution to this would be to have a similar meta-game to your “footsteps” idea where your sprint speed is still dependent on stick movement with extremely high inertia to disincentivize jitter peeking. Your in-game hands and arms will blend into a fast but predictable animation while holding your gun at high ready and moving quickly, which you’d have to negate by moving your hands in essentially the same motion but reversed.
So basically, player is running full speed forward with their IRL arms at high ready. If they do nothing, their characters arms WILL stay up, but will move side to side/up and down very quickly making it hard to aim. A trained, competent player will compensate for this by training their arms to “pull” their characters arms with their real arms in the opposite direction of the animation that causes motion, thus emulating the gyroscopic effect that people who can achieve that in real life have to perfect to do the same.
That’s an interesting idea. This kind of experimentation and open-mindedness is what we need more of 👍🏻
Another thing that weapon interactions in H3VR do is that you have to learn how to use a speciffic weapon. Sure, you might be able to pick up a gun your enemy dropped, but will you be as efficient with it, especially in stressful scenarios? Just playing Take and Hold mode in H3VR proved to me that in high intensity gunfights you can easily miss the reload, or fumble when you're not familiar enough with your gun, but after using it for a while, you get the excitement from doing it so efficiently, you feel like John Wick!
This is it. This is the VR shakeup we've needed for the last few years. Devs, make this happen!
I think there are some really good points here. I would also like to see more interaction with the environment in future vr shooters. Door controls, light switches, knocking over tables There are a lot of possibilities, depending on how much work the map makers want to put into the play spaces.
Yea this is where VR could shine instead of those changes he said. VR should take more time to implement physics into door opening, using items as cover like shields, pushing over tables to duck behind and stuff like that.
VR has a fundamentally difference to Desktop - You stand (most of the time) and have to move the weapon / aim yourself and not use a mouse with 100% accuracy shooting where your monitor points.
I agree with everything you've stated in this video. I believe you have the right approach to how VR shooters should be handled. When VR shooters were becoming popular I thought of all the cool realistic mechanics they would implement only to be moderately let down. If they implemented the mechanics discussed I think it'd be a lot more immersive and a step in the right direction.
this video is the reason i made a few videos of my own related to improving vr and am still making more
This should honestly be the gold standard for VR shooters.
The fact that you explained the issues clearly WHILE ALSO explaining possible solutions makes me question why we haven't used these solutions instead.
I'm definitely going to play H3VR with physically-based reloading and Controller-based movement since stick drift remains a huge issue and especially with VR controllers.
Blade and sorcery does exactly what you suggest with the CMM + Thumbstick movement. In B&S if you want to move at a walking pace you can simply use the thumbstick, but if you want to run/sprint you have to swing your arms
All of this to say, You cannot treat VR like flatscreen. You must try new things and learn what works and what’s acceptable and what isn’t.
Great video, great points.
You might want to reach out to indie VR game developers and share your ideas with them. You could be an inspiring example for those with brilliant ideas and concepts who may lack the opportunity to develop a game on their own.
This was a very interesting take on VR and I do think there's some takeaways that could be make absolutely. That said, I don't think that all of it is as valid. Swinging your arms to sprint, to me, always felt horrible. It's a motion that you do with your legs in real-life, and transposing it to your hands, just because that's all we have in VR doesn't make it feel good. It's no more immersive than the transposing we do with movement on a thumbstick.
I completely agree that moving around and taking cover should somehow be implemented more in VR. Watching this video reminded me of playing the excellent game "Wands Alliances", which implemented a lot of these concepts. In Wands Alliances, you move from set position to set position, and each basically becoming your play space. If you had a wall in that position, you had to physically move to it and duck. This made things like blind firing absolutely viable, but the downsides are pretty obvious. If your play space isn't big enough - well, you probably can't take cover at all. That limits the amount of players that even can play the game as intended, something that is devastating in a niche as small as VR is today. Which is probably a contributing factor to why Wands Alliances is pretty much dead these days.
There are other considerations to be made than just "more immersion". Things like size of play space required, being able to play for longer sessions without becoming tired, etc. And that's *if* we even blatantly say that things like swinging arms is more immersive - I would argue it's not.
i agree, a lot of things in this video can only be used if you have enough space, and a lot of people dont have so much space to play
I see VR as the Playstation 1 era of gaming. Where hardware limitations is so big that most games are truly jerry rigging the gameplay together and trying to make sense of it. Without full body tracking and mostly handsfree hardware is so hard to see problems like this being solved across the board, or even solutions being implemented where they're needed. Sure, VR can become great by still using analog controllers, but why? A lot of problems solve themselves out if your hands are the controller.
One thing in worry is if devs actually start using swing movement, is that they won’t make it simply an ergebomic active way to move, but make it be a rush to who can swing their arms the fastest to implement some unnecessary “skill cieling” but ultimately just reward 10 year olds with adhd (I’m thinking stuff like rec room when I say that, it’s just not fun to have to move that quickly, and im someone who plays a lot of beat saber so im not just super athletic) if its implemented km how you proposed with the shooter "demo" it actually seems pretty good in concept, if not hard to impliment, simply putting in set speeds and simple natural movements for inputs simply makes the game more immersive overall and just less jank (I’m too lazy to add grammar rn, so I won’t)
one thing i will say you dont see people blind fire because it is the least reliable form of firing your weapon
Genius ideas, and it's not just your wonderful sophisticated voice that makes these ideas seem so great!
Hoping ALL vr devs see this, and we see less "controller style" gameplay in upcoming vr titles (I think all these ideas would help other genres and titles as well).
Blade and Sorcery actually already uses the controller motion movement as standard. It works exactly how you said it should work. There is normal stick driven movement, but you have to swing your arms to break into a sprint, and it accelerates so it doesn't feel weird.
Also, I feel as though a game like Into The Radius would benefit the most out of most of this, since it's supposed to be a realism shooter.
I didnt even know you could sprint in blade and sorcery, im glad i saw this comment😂😅
@@SithLordC3P0No way lmao
It's not very strict so you can do some really goofy arm swings to sprint.
Loooove the blend of stick and arm swing
This should be the "I'm going to make a VR shooter" 101.
You should figure out how you can target this as much as possible to all the developers that need to see this.
I'm gonna try and repost this on different VR dev forums and such, if thats okay.
as a vr developer i'm for sure gonna follow the advice in this video
Same
100% agree. VR should be a physical FIRST input!!!!
I hope some developers see this and get inspired to implement ideas like this.
As much as I see your point on all of it and even agree with you, there's also accessibility to consider (people don't all have enough space or cable length for physical turning, slower smooth turn causes awful motion sickness, etc) and also effort. People don't want to put in effort, its already bothersome strapping on a vr set to your face over just playing games on desktop, so even if it increases immersion I feel like then vr games that already struggle to get an audience due to how small vr user base is and then retention of vr users on top, will just become way too inaccessible and way too much of a hardcore effort learning curve for most people. And that's on top of what I think most vr users actually do use vr for - social vr, in which case most of them aren't gonna prioritize physical effort first. I think all this would be more plausible if vr was already way more adopted than it is and vr hardware more further along in price accessibility and physical comfort accessibility though. This is just my perspective as a vr user though, great video all the same!
And another thing to consider - for example with how precise you need to be with your guns - there's a reason why there's built in leeway, its a compromise because youre holding bulky controllers instead of actually being able to use your fingers for precise physical handling and touch feedback. Def need hardware to advance way more before we can expect movements to translate that precisely
100% agree
I used to play in a 1x1 meter space and still exclusively physically turned, I have a hard time believing it's that big of a problem when most people who can afford a VR headset are the type of assholes with giant middle class homes with an exclusive dining room on top of their living room and kitchen
@@Lark993 L take, you can see that because the most sold headset is the quest 2 which is cheaper than a playstation
@@Lark993 AND don’t forget that you don’t need any external hardware for quest to work not even a TV. So VR (quest) is actually one of the cheapest gaming consoles. Even a smartphone is more expensive nowadays.
with the movement problems, I agree a lot and i feel like blades and sorcery is extremely like what you would want
Everything should be B&S and H3VR. Not because they are good games (which they are) but because these games are pioneering what SHOULD be VR standards. Weapons should be physical, winning should feel like you won the fight through skill instead of cheese (like how Grimlord feels like swinging a pickaxe until the armored enemy dies) all gun games should be hard to play unless you are willing to learn to use the firearm. I actually had no idea how to use any firearm other than a simple handgun in H3VR, and figuring out how every step of a reload works was 90% of the fun of VR, and it kills me when a game has you move your hand to your waist to reload, or give you crazy mag assist that catches your mag from a meter away.
I agree with 99% of this, except the bending over thing, the amount of times I've bent to grab a dropped magazine or loot something I either A) end up clipping into the collsion becuase the devs didn't think someone would bend over to grab things or B) can't grab it because despite setting my playspace height 3-5 inches higher than my actual floor the item is still below my physical floor
this is an issue on your part and the setup of your VR-Headset / Basestations. When changing your roomscaling limits on your VR-Headset you should also be looking out to set your ground height. In most properly developed games you can pick up things while bending downwards without any clipping.
I disagree. I bend over and fly backwards because my headset moving forwards makes the game think I've stepped into the box/wall (Tabor/Onward) and I specifically set up ground height to alleviate this issue which helps in many games but is a recurring issue in others. In all fairness I am 6' 3" so many games don't account for tall folk but I feel blaming user error while assuming the user has specifically trouble shot is reductive at best. The VR space as a whole I would argue isn't "properly developed" as they often are very janky and suffer from a myriad of software and hardware shortfalls. Sure there are exceptional executions but on the whole we as consumers are fed a sub-par product and just accept it as the norm, which in the overall is what appears to be the through line argument this video makes. The space is failing to meet it's potential and we as consumers are being complacent when we should desire more.
@@jacobgentile3351 Yeah Both of these games have terrible IKs, the game is supposed to understand that you're bending based on the rotation of your headset as well as it's position in relationship to your controllers, getting your virtual body to line up with the real one is a pretty tough job for developers.
I see people saying these games are competitive, so of course it's that way. But I think that misses the point of the video. The fact that we think of them as competitive, so it's fast paced is an example of the problem I think he has. A competitive VR shooter shouldn't have the same gunplay and pace as something like CSGO or Valorant. That's the point of the change in medium, if you want fast paced just play those games. VR should be something that relies on the fact that it has the capability to track the users actual movement, so of course it's going feel different. Trying to negate the abilities of the hardware instead opting to have it feel as much like an xbox controller but you can turn your head is a waste of the VR's capabilities.
lots of people missed the point of the video but thats to be expected
So, i do have a movement system that COULD help with the speed problem. It is a bit cartoony, but i hope it helps with the games i wish to make. So when you start to run, you kick off the ground with a slight amount of force, taking a few seconds to reach your top speed, and then having to do the opposite when stopping, sliding a bit on the ground when stopping. And if you happen to strife a lot, the "tripping" mechanic will take care of that every time you strife, start running, stop running, turn, and so on. An invisible "tripping" bar fills up a little, and if you fill it up fully, you trip and fall, and the only way to get up is to push the ground and go forward, then youll get up (which takes a second) and then youll be able to start running again, i haven't tested this in anything, do it might be just annoying, who knows. Also, you can not shoot or reload when you are on the ground. You have to get up before before anything.
do you happen to have a showcase of these mechanics?
@@etherealfields no.
I agree with Liam Neeson
I really hope this video gains traction and gets popular. People really need to see this.
16:54 I play alot of airsoft and this is way more accurate to how you move when holding something in you're hands like that. I haven't played a lot of vr but I'm actually a bit disappointed that that's how a lot of players treat playing the game. If you wanted to go really in depth you could also add a small slowdown time when it comes to transitioning from a full on sprint, so you have to judge when to stop sprinting earlier... this comes from sprinting fullboar into walls on accident in real life and getting shot because I couldnt get my gun up in time lol
You need a P90 for the best sprinty sprinty shooty action, IRL. Is the only airsoft gun I've ever used where I could just sprint around like a crazy person and keep my sights perfectly on target like the overly steady VR footage above. Gun fits into your shoulder so well and is so stable that it's like having a head mounted laser gun once you get properly accustomed to it. Love the thing. ( Hence why I couldn't help using this thin excuse to randomly tell you about it. Please excuse. xD )
Nah I'm an airsoft nerd and have alot of gameplay with the p90 your good to rant. Love the platform myself even bought a chop block rail for mine@@UnknownSquid
The best voice in all of vr
I could listen to you talk about vr for hours with that lovely smooth insightful commentary of yours
Please keep up this type of feedback/research/solutions. VR is still young, many will copy what worked 'enough', some will push the envelope. Hope that some will find this well put video, to at least allow it as an option to start. Finding that balance of immersion and game playability will take time but arguments like this will turn that dial in the right direction.
I feel like with reloading a firearm in VR, you would need to actually insert the magazine from the bottom of the gun, and push it in, rather than having it hoovered up by the gun. My proposed solution for this would be for a sort of assist - when the top of the magazine is near the bottom of the firearm, it would tilt towards the bottom of the gun (not with a very strong force, but a slight pull, like you're holding something slightly off-balance in a physics game), and - instead of being sucked up, would be properly angled for you to complete the reload. I believe this would give a more complete H3VR-feeling reload, whilst also being more accessible and less strict. It would feel like you did that reload yourself, because you didn't just put the magazine near the grip of the gun, and have it be reloaded, but you actually pushed the magazine into the gun yourself; This would make reloading alot less gameified, and alot less inconsequential to those who aren't paying any attention or are panicking during the reload.
Your voice is soothing by the way,
Love your commentary.
This, this highlights all my issues with VR shooters and why I never really got into them! I'm glad someone has finally voiced their opinions on this topic!
I love your proposals because instead of picking one way or the other it feels like you’re incorporating both to solve the whole problem. Amazing!!
Hotdog's Horseshoes and hand grenades is very good at reloads, would recommend
H3VR arm swinger locomotion is a good solution to completely steady aim when moving fast
Hybrid armswinger (thumbstick movement and swinging arms to move faster) is 100% the best locomotion option to solve this. I'm pretty sure there were some games that use this exact method I just dont recall the names.
@@RavenTaleLive ah yes, hybrid arm swinger is where it auto moves just by pressing the button, right?
I love every suggestion, this needs to be the industry standard
The problem with blindfire in vr is that the enemy can take many bullets before dying, it is also hard to hit anything while shooting blindly, so the chances of eliminating enemies are very low and not worth bothering with.
the problem with blindfire is that it doesn't work in any scenario. Which is why no one does it, not because it's vr.
@@MistereXMachina exactly my point?
I fundamentally agree with all 3 of your pillars, and moreover STRONGLY agree VR shooters need improvement, but disagree as strongly with respect to how they should be implemented, the reasons for doing so in the first place, and the fixes necessary to amend the issues.
tl;dr I almost entirely agree with needing to fix snap-turn, inertia, and reloading (in some instances).
However, the entire premise of the video is, "VR should play differently than pancake because it's a different modality - it’s more physical"
fair enough, but designers don’t change things in VR for the sake of being able to do them in VR - they should change them because they make sense in the context of the experience they are trying to create.
For example, people HAVE the ability to shoot around corners in VR *right now*, but don’t - is it because of the design or implementation of the VR mechanics?
No, it’s because in the context of this virtual activity - and, to wit, the same activity in real life - it *doesn’t work* lmao - yes, it’s more “realistic” to be able to spray and pray around the corner, but it isn’t effective for reaching the desired goal in the context of the experience, which in this case, is busting a cap in the enemy’s virtual ass
As an example, with respect to weapon sway, as you move, it's entirely secondary to the actual difficulty in aiming a weapon in VR which is orders of magnitude more difficult than on pancake, which is to say nothing of recoil compensation.
Weapon sway for the sake of having weapon sway is entirely cosmetic and not at all practical or needed - sure it's more "realistic" but in the sense that Gaben is talking about when he says realism isn't fun, and we play games to have fun.
If I'm trying to move forward in a game and have to swing my arms like a fuckin orangutan just to get to my position, that is objectively less fun - fun, as described by him, relates to the game world responding to input intuitively, not mimicking realism 1/1; if it were more fun, people would instinctively swing their arms when running - which you already CAN do - as opposed to taking the path of least resistance to IGNORE that activity.
Would adding stricter reloading make Population:ONE, a shooting game about people dropping from orbit into a town to kill each-other while flying and climbing buildings make it more fun? If the answer is NO it’s because the designers are aware of the context and end goal of the experience they’re crafting. To condense your point down, you want a VR shooter sim, which is fine. But to extend that logic out and say that it’s lazy design otherwise is intellectually disingenuous and simply not substantiated by anything other than your opinion. I understand that later in the video you aren't advocating for a dogmatic approach and that it could vary based on the goal of each experience, but you spend the run-time of the video saying those self-same mechanics are lazy and uninspired from an implementation standpoint, which is a slippery-ass slope; should I have to manually refill my mags because it's more realistic? Should I have to manually undo velcro on my chest and remove magazines, or physically strap on a helmet? If we extend that logic outward, you advocate for a 1-1, or near 1-1 experience that mimics realism as much as possible, but the fact of the matter is that a great deal of real life is boring as shit, which is why we play videogames, and the majority of them condense tedious or mundane tasks into a simple abstraction, and the ones that don't are generally closer to sims - which are also fun in their own way!
In the video you talk about the path of least resistance, and that it’s lazy - but as you’ve pointed out, humans will do that regardless of the circumstance, so what you're advocating, in this sense, is more resistance, more friction, which is not only less fun for more people, but inevitably ignored by those willing to put in the hours to create a new meta to cheese and take advantage of it.
“Yes, but I’m sick of people being able to push buttons to be good” - the people with whom I’ve competed at the highest possible level in VR esports are not simply pushing buttons to be good, they’re putting hundreds, thousands of hours into understanding every aspect of gameplay, what weapons deal the most damage and in which context, how, where, and when to use utility, how to ADS quickly, how to compensate for recoil - which takes hundreds of hours to perfect on each gun - memorizing every pixel of every map and how to take advantage of it, learning to coordinate multiple players, learning to communicate effectively, and a litany of other things that are entirely detached to whether or not they can spin around or crouch real good.
You can be super good at reloading your Beretta, but in Pavlov I know that if I have an AK - which may or may not have a slower reload time than a Berreta if you implement restrictive reloading - and I know that while you dump 9 rounds into my chest, I fire once into your face, and helmet or no, you are dead.
"Encouraging physical movement [is something] we as designers understand lead to a better experience" ok but to what end?
Don’t get it twisted - entering a medium more physical than pancake doesn’t in and of itself either necessitate or imply reliance on moving your whole body.
To be clear:
VR doesn't give your body freedom in a virtual space, it give your
1. Eyes
2. Ears
3. hands freedom in a virtual space,
And without external, often third-party support, crucial physicality WILL NOT be represented in VR, starting most obviously with your legs and feet.
If you're saying if you're not moving your legs and turning physically you're not having as good of an experience as someone who has full motion controller tracking and a KatVR?
VR is more “physical”, yes, but you are immersing first your head, then your hands, literally NOTHING else, which is why we have people in wheelchairs able to play Pavlov competitively.
And a lot of the aversion to crouching has nothing to do with the act itself, and in fact, I would argue that most people, especially those unfamiliar with VR are more inclined to act upon what they see in VR physically as evidenced by compilation after compilation of people leaping to their demise only to destroy their face and TV, but usually more to do with the fact that developers either on the platform side or on the game side can't seem to implement height consistently.
Further still you have to bend over to pick up your weapon in nearly every VR shooter out there, and in all of the competitive ones that I know of. I'm not resistant to moving more in VR, I'm resistant to the reasons for which you have stated we should.
I play seated because I've only a small place to play, and I've broken my ceiling fan twice - as you say, that's a me issue. However, having played easily 10,000 hours of VR across several accounts and games, thousands of those hours standing, I can tell you there is literally zero difference in my gameplay. There is no advantage, there is no increase or decrease of fun, it's literally just a different position.
I think that fundamentally, a chunk of the video is addressing a problem that doesn't exist, at least for VR shooters, because their real life counterpart is simply NOT physical beyond
1. Running - which you can't mimic in VR without a treadmill
2. Crouching/turning - which exists
3. Aiming/firing - which exists
4. Reloading - which could use work
5.throwing objects - which exists
It’s not exactly the best genre to express the physicality of VR to begin with, so it seems like you’re uncomfortable being wet when you’re the one who got in the pool. There could absolutely be fixes to inertia and movement in VR shooters, and I 1000000% agree with reloading being more deliberate and strict. 1/2
But you don’t even mention extremely important aspects of VR shooters like the ability to THROW THINGS - nades, knives, flashbangs, magazines, and you HAVE to throw them correctly every time to hit the target you’re aiming for, an act that on pancake is condensed down to a single press of a button, but which in VR, can - as I can attest to, having literally fucking BLOWN UP MY ENTIRE TEAM MULTIPLE TIMES - be catastrophic if you miss
90% of the physically inherent to shooters and shooting in real life is already present - crouching, going prone, spinning/turning, throwing, and you’re focusing on….weapons swaying while you move? I mean, the inertia part I get, and I totally agree with stricter reloads in most shooter experiences. But most of the physicality is already present. We have this dude named PGATI in Pavlov, and his signature move is literally crouching in a bush to disguise himself. With the exception of real-life inertia so you can't jiggle-peak, you can already sway your arms while you move, you can already physically crouch or spin, you can already throw, catch, and go prone, so the real issue you have is that some people can do it with a button push, and that's a problem for you, when no one and nothing is preventing you from doing those things in-game.
In the end it came off a bit pedantic, and it seemed like anyone who would disagree with you would do so because of their inability to think critically, or because of a tendency to adopt a herd mentality, which seems a bit wild considering 99% of what you’re asking for already exists in shooters in one way or another, but not altogether in a single package, and because the majority of what you’re saying is a matter of opinion.
One of the bigger issues behind the three pillars you’ve mentioned is that WEVE HAD the games with fixes you’re proposing, and they’re being shut down.
One of the all-time best representations of the full physicality of competitive VR games I’ve ever played, Echo Arena was just unceremoniously shut down. This game was a paragon of the principles which you mentioned, realistic inertia, physics-based movement, teamwork, everything was ABSOLUTELY astounding for a competitive VR environment, and you had to practice hard to aim the disc well. There are issues with VR shooters, and competitive VR experiences at large. But I would argue the issues are distinct from what is presented here. 2/2
This video basically outlines everything I wish VR is. I am eager for the day that Esports resembles something to Ready Player One!
I really like some of the things outlined in this video, but I do think there are some issues with it
1) In some of the games you took clips from (ghosts of tabor as an example), the weapons system is already extremely strict in the way you interact, which helps achieve the game's goal of fully immersing the user in the dangerous environment.
2) People who constantly ADS are typically people who've only ever played PC before and are new to VR - in games like pavlov, breachers and tabor ADS isn't used at close range often (if at all), with people learning to pointfire. People who play VR shooters don't ADS often, they instead learn to know where their weapon is pointing and use that skill in most gunfights.
3) Making gunplay and movement more strict would make any game a lot less beginner-friendly, and would likely drive new people away from a game
I still really like a lot of the ideas (like more physical movement) and people are working on bringing things like that into reality with for example the KAT VR treadmill, but the main thing to keep in mind is what games are hoping to achieve with their mechanics. Games like Ghosts of Tabor (which you should try out to see what I'm talking about) manage to do what you're talking about while games like pavlov offer a more fast-paced, almost arcade style experience. Each game has it's own goals, and there's no reason to say a game like pavlov or breachers should change the way they play just because they can.
I can see where you're coming from, believe me, but just try to be less of an UnderTheMayo
People who play VR shooters absolutely do ADS often, but in this case, at least in that little section there it seemed like he takes issue with the fact that people ADS in VR shooters at all which is confusing considering that the video is predicated on realism in VR shooters, and that's generally how uh.... you shoot
@@MistereXMachina If what he takes issue with is ADSing as a whole, it's a little weird, but I took it as him taking issue with people ADSing the way they do in flat screen shooters, like holding ADS around corners for example, which nobody does
Current vr doesnt have enough feedback to actualy support proper immersion. For example, to load a magazine into a rifle in vr, there's this magnet effect, meaning as long as you arent being crazy with your hand positioning, the mag is going in. This ruins immersion since putting mags into guns properly is often not a super straightfoward operation, even if its a really well tested and proven design, like an M4 or a glock.
But then, consider the alternative, that the VR simulation demands the same precision required IRL to load a gun. You'd have to deal with a very awkward operation, since there's no tactile feedback (unless you happen to have a really exprnsive rig that has the same weight and shape of the gun you're loading in vr).
I already do this is in Pavlov, crouch and lying down has no button, you have to do it physically. I also never use the joystick to turn myself around, i always do it irl, same with sidestepping when i am looking around a corner and being shot at. Also, by doing this it improved my gaming a lot, i win so many matches😊
Same🧖🏾♂️👍🏾
i agree with everything in this video + your voice is actually amazing. Stricter reloading techniques would be perfect in a competitive VR game but not too strict. it could be seen as a perfect demonstration of how you reload a weapon under pressure, but the character you play as is likely a soldier who has extensive training in gun handling, so the margin of perfection for handling a reload shouldn't be too precise, otherwise you'd just be playing a character who has never touched a gun before
thats probably 75% of gamers that have never touched a gun before, let alone airsoft
I remember when I started playing Pavlov for the first time I was always peaking corners and moving around physically and also blind firing but I stopped doing that after a while since I would rarely get any results from that I still do turn physically in vr but I wish more games encouraged physical movement because it just makes the game more enjoyable then button presses
I gave up on peeking around corners in Pavlov because Pavlov (still!) has ZERO lean function. You're basically stepping out of cover and exposing the entire length of your body when you try.
On top of that, Blind fire is... not all that effective.
It works for suppressive fire IRL - because a single round from a wild spray is still one huge reason not to be out in the open...
But especially in games with high TTK - you're far better off popping around the corner yourself and getting shots on target.
The hardest thing is game balance. Some people don't have room / are disabled in some way for room scale. For example, I have about 2b2 meters at best and my spine is not so hot. So going prone IRL and sometimes crouching is an issue. If button presses could be matched up to the average physical movement time, it would be better than having slightly nerfed button presses, as that would cut player numbers.
I don't see why an experience which is primarily sold on the physicality should be nerfed for everyone for the sake of the disabled. I'm sorry, I know it's harsh as fuck, but being disabled in VR is like being blind for flat screen gameplay.
@@doltBmB Because games have to sell copies. The VR playerbase is not that large, and physical limitations as broad as "having a small room" are not exactly rare.
One could also say that developers are trying to target the general demographic in most cases that've maybe just got a VR headset and don't understand the vr interaction, and thus they make it simpler so the player doesn't lose interest and quit playing/refund their game.
However, great points. What I mentioned doesn't work as an excuse for every game.
I think you should also mention the limitations of current gen hardware. Physically turning my head i have to contend with the weight, bounce, and cable of my headset. I also have to turn more often because of the reduced FOV and lack of other sensory queues. So the turn button is an easy way to compensate.
Reloading and picking up stuff from the ground is where it really falls apart. What happens when you jam a mag into a gun the wrong way IRL? You feel it in your fingers and your arm is stopped moving up. In VR? You arm goes straight through and you do/don't drop the mag. There may be some sound/haptic but that's about it.
Ok, so you try to pick up the fallen mag and oh, your VR floor is above your real floor, after recalibrating you try again but the mag is on a lower piece of the level goemetry than you (eg down a ramp) so you have to move over it or calibrate to be always standing in the foor a bit. Finally reaching the mag you're about to scoop it up whichever way is easiest and dextrously manipulate it to a usable grip but then you remember that, oh, you have a hand full of controller and that the game is reducing it to a single point in space.
This is my rambly way of saying that emulating RL physics in VR isn't always a good idea and we should come up with analogues that work with imperfect hardware.
Take the grav gloves from Alyx: you perform a flick and have to catch the item flying by (if it didn't already hit something else). They avoid the above metioned issues without being "i want that item, teleport it to my hand".
Totally agree with those limitations.
I think there must be a happy medium where some of the ideas in this video are implemented, but in a way that's reasonable given those very real limitations (lack of physical interaction/feedback, inconsistencies between your real space and the VR space, lack of dexterity/tactile feedback/precision due to the abstractions inherent in motion controllers, occasional minor tracking issues, etc.). Particularly I think some assistance is reasonable for weapon interactions. I'm sure there's a balance point where skill is still required, but the game helps nudge players in the right direction to an appropriate degree.
The gravity gloves seemed like a good solution that still utilized VR interaction instead of simple button presses. I could see how they wouldn't be optimal for every game though, as that style of interaction would be very immersion breaking without some sort of setting/narrative justification for it. But other VR-centric solutions could be found for other games.
@@GreyMatterShades For example reloading could be quite generous but play an animation aligning the mag if you aren't precise, sorta like animation canceling in some engines.
@@g_glop Some VR games already use position blending (interpolating between the place your hand actually is and where it should be) to align the mag in the right spot as long as you get it close. There are definitely ways to help players with fine motor finesse without making reloads pure arcade baby mode. Of course if they do it too heavily, then it'll feel too easy/hand-holdy. It's all about balance.
Nailed it. A dev studio needs to offer you a project consulting gig
I'll be thinking about certain aspects you mention. However, in my games I found that realism and fun gameplay can collide with each other.
The controller motion movement is surprisingly similar to how it is in Blade and Sorcery, a movement system I absolutely adore. Normal thumbstick for slow movement/strafing and swing your arms to move faster. It is incredible in a sword fighting game, having to lower your shield and actually move your arms to sprint away or towards an enemy.
Was looking for a comment like this ^^
It shows, that we are still at the beginning of finding out how VR "works" for us, but I am sure in the long run we will get something like an "unified standard", the same we have in 2D games right now (WSAD, CTRL and SPACEBAR have developed over time, same goes for shooter in consoles)
It might end up with a "simulated" movement mode and a "simplified" movement mode, similar to something like Arma vs CoD.
I came to the comments to talk about armswinger from h3vr because i love it so much and it nearly completely solves the issue where you can move super fast with no weapon sway. but then you brought it up in your video. This video just keeps getting better and better.
I want every major vr development team to watch this video and give their feedback🧖🏾♂️👍🏾
@12:10 "Having to twist my wrist causes problems" - nah, spinning the gun around gives extra style points and boosts DPS like a minigun of course. Buillets spin for accuracy, so spinning the gun as well just makes it more accurate, clearly.
Jokes aside, this is an excellent video with clear examples showing your points in a great way.
I don't have much to add really as I agree with basically everything you've laid out, especially in regards to reloading. Though I personally felt that Boneworks and HL Alyx had great mechanics for this, HL alyx less so other than the shotgun which I always found immensely satisfying being able to flick open and closed to replace shells. Of course that could be mostly skipped with button presses but still, the option to flick your wrist was there and satisfying to execute, and the reloads also show a bit of weight behind them which is always appreciated.
Boneworks as I remember is quite a bit more lenient as far as accuracy of reloads, but could lead to plenty of interesting interactions if you chose to entertain yourself (throwing the gun up and catching it with a fresh mag, that kind of thing). Definitely strays from the "realism" aspect but still provides an interesting mechanic more so than the quick 2 frame reload swaps you see in other games.
As always, keep up the great work! Glad to finally see this video in it's final form.
Nerfing artificial turn will have the biggest impact on VR playstyles. I try to play purely physical turn but need to use artificial occasionally for cable management and it's so easy to fall into the trap of using snap turn during regular gameplay. It's just too strong for such little effort that the desire to win at a game will pull you into using it.
Finally someone covers this topic, exactly what I was thinking since I got into VR. Sadly, people are just too lazy to immerse themselves, thinking that VR will do all the job for them. Playing seated, with virtual crouching, stick turning, and all other stuff that excludes any movement makes VR just a 3D screen with ability to move your hands, nothing more. No wonder why most of the VR headsets end up collecting dust or being sold on aftermarket. This one of the reasons why VR's growing is very slow and a lot of people are sceptical about it. Man, when I see someone playing wireless and still using stick turning I just don't understand why.
Adding to locomotion methots, something that could be mentioned in the video is walk in place. I was using it for quite a long in many games (not multiplayer tho) with "VRocker" software, and despite some flaws it does a really good job for immersion if set up properly. It may be a bit hardcore way to move in multiplayer especially, but it still has some advantages over arm swinging. For example, I think that lowering your gun to run is a bit too restrictive, why can't I just run and gun? With running in place you could do that, but your bullet spread would be increased "naturally".
I will from now until eternity refer to this man simply as "the voice". Great video. Subscribed.
Liam Neeson's long-lost brother
Honestly I think the ultimate goal *should* be eradicating virtual movement entirely. It’s the whole point of VR. But we’re currently limited by the technology. We don’t have any great but reasonably priced solutions to true physical movement, i.e. walking being entirely based on the movement of your legs. “Freeaim” shoes seem promising, but idk how far they are from being commercially available and especially reasonably priced.
Extremely helpful and engaging video. Thanks for taking the time to make it and to provide possible solutions!
This video is so resonant with my thoughts and emotions, it's uncanny.
Great essay, and lots of luck in the algorithm!
I knew there were many others out there who felt the same, very glad this video has reached a few of them, like yourself.
My favorite part of VR shooters is blind firing around cover. When you get a kill its the best feeling
This video has made me understand why I felt let down by (multiplayer) VR shooters and got bored very quickly as people just abused those movement hokes.
I am a software developer and this video made me want to make a VR player controller template and experiment with it, I've never had an excuse to start making VR games or experimenting with them in general and now that I've watched this video, it really makes me want to see and feel what you described once implemented in game, so there, I'll see if I have the time and dedication to make it, but you know, it could be a very good challenge that could lead me into making games which is what I've always wanted to do but never actually had any unique idea to start with.
Thank you for showing everyone what *could* be done with VR and it's inputs, and I hope game developers start implementing these ideas, and once again I can't wait to see and feel it.
This is an interesting take, however I think it’s not the ONLY way to take advantage of VR as a medium in ways flat screen games can’t
I think bonelab is a great example, maybe all these things could work with it, but it’s not JUST a shooter
For example, something like the avatar system would not work as well with this level of physicality, hell I’d argue a lot of the games thematic thesis is sort of built on the grounds that entirely physical movement isn’t always the best.
It’s also worth acknowledging that this type of design likely will be more adopted when getting a setup with full body tracking is more accessible, but in current day, vr is in many ways a really well tracked wii strapped to your face
It would be cool to see some of this stuff as options now, but I think the actual mass adoption of vr, and creation of unique artistic experiences should be put before this, because there does become a point where one could argue the question “why don’t you just go play paintball?”
I welcome VR having intentionally cumbersome design in some cases, I love death stranding and fromsoft games, but I think as a medium it needs to evolve just a bit more before that. I do agree with the idea that good design in flat screen can equal bad design in vr, although in a lot of different ways
I can tell you where the resistance to move comes from.. I work ~70h a week building events.. Usually my stepcounter crosses 10000 before coffee, usually at the end of the day it's broken and just says "TILT" much like me... When building conventions you're on your knees the entire day crawling taping down wires etc... When doing music events, I'm hanging in the trusses like a monkey all day... I don't need more physicality in my life right now.. I do stand playing VR.. Unless racing or flight/space-simming (inherent sitting activities). But physically crouching just doesn't give my muscles the rest I need, to be on my knees all day the next day.. Or to walk between 2 stands that are on opposite sites of a huge convention centre with materials and tools the entire day.
I do have a big passion for VR and less time for it then I'd want.. so I'd like to be able to experience my VR in a not so physical way..
That's apart from the lack of playspace... I have 1 room I have to do everything in.. so my double bass is there, my guitars, my piano, my saxophones... and everything else.. So I've to be rather careful swinging my arms if not in a certain orientation in my room...
It's not I don't want to move, it's more that my body sometimes needs a bit of a break from being physical, just to recover.. And being physical in my house is extra hindered by the lack of space.. Thing is, the housing situation is like really bad, and it can take up to 25 years to actually get another place atm... Or you'd have to be filthy stinking rich... (I just manage 2 of those regularly, and 2 out of 3 ain't bad right, except for ... yeah)
Would you be then opposed to using same accessibility features as someone who is similarly but permanently limited in their movement/reaction/stamina? Or just in a separate "league"?
@@NightMind0 I wouldn't mind playing with other people that use that functionality if there needs to be a separation.. I just don't think the difference is that big that it would warrant a separation at all... Let people choose how they want to play their game (yes there are maybe some exceptions I'll be getting to that in a bit), and enjoy the game as you want to enjoy it by any means... I wouldn't mind people adapting the speed of say crouching to make it balanced.. I would mind people taking that option away..
There's pros and cons for both... If I physically move, it takes my body less time to understand my orientation because my inner-ear made the movement as well so it'll take me less time to proper aim at something after turning.. The finetuning in aiming is the same you still need to point and aim after turning. And I would suggest that IRL turning has an advantage there., So I don't agree that it's that much of an advantage... using one or the other.. I think that Mr VR Voice is making it bigger than it is, and bigger than it needs to be... I do fully agree with the reloading thing.. make it as realistic as possible. That it'll take time, and marginally less if you're skilled. Making sprinting and ADS-ing impossible or really difficult seems like a good idea, Just the physicality in my opinion makes less of a difference then Mr VR Voice would like to make it seem... It's a choice, it's also my choice.. And I don't like people proposing choices should be taken away for no good reason at all...
I do get if there is a CS or R6 kinda competitive game in VR (Like Vail wanted to be) you can, as a dev take a stance and make everyone play on the same terms... I get that, I don't mind that... but in games like GoT or ZC or Contractors or Pavlov or even Onwards, it really doesn't matter all that much.. In the end your reflexes and your cool are going to make the difference, not if you turn with a stick or IRL.. And it should be like this, that everyone can have fun with a game... It seems silly to exclude an entire group of gamers that either can't or don't want to be physical in their gaming.
I just challenge the notion that not being physically involved make the game easier to play... It's different, but it also has it's drawbacks vs IRL movement.. So I think it's rather balanced having the 2 coexist if done right (I'm not against introducing physicality in games, as an option).. But physicality in gaming imo should be a choice. It's a GAME... Keep in mind a lot of people that can't for some reason be physical will turn to games to experience something they can't do IRL (And for some of those it's running after other people with a gun).. And you shouldn't bar those people from also enjoying those games..
And again, I will make an exception to that for purely competitive games, with a huge competition behind them. Sure I get you want a level playing field... But otherwise games are there to be enjoyed by everyone regardless. And therefore should be accessible to everyone..
I also don't subscribe to the analysis that this is THE factor holding development in VR back. That all leads back to old dogs and old tricks... Do what you know... But that's very typical to the industry... Because of investors.... If you want to know what is holding the entire industry back.. Look at investors and their "want" for safe choices....
@@jazzdirt I respect that. Also, definitely agree that a casual game (such as single-player, coop or even a casual multiplayer) can still use these features as a toggle, not remove completely.
This video seems mostly targeted at (semi-)realistic competitive shooters and the way these simplifications and reduced physicality cause same gameplay patterns we have already seen in PC gaming as opposed to breeding new ones. Proposed changes can be quite drastic, but I would guess it's a push-and-pull balancing between making enough change to see results and scaling it back closer to the equilibrium.
At least I would hope so. Accelerometer aim is still a joke on a phone, years later...
@@NightMind0 In another reply I also said that a competitive shooter actually used in competition, money on the line and all.. The dev should be free to limit players to 1 playstyle, so it's a level playing field. A game like Vail was trying to be, CS in VR (minus the player base unfortunately). I would totally get that... But even then maybe in casual mode you should leave those options open (although that might open the door to cheating, since the code then is already in the game, yeah maybe keep actual competition games clean)...
But as long as games are played for fun, you should keep them accessible even for people with disabilities that might not be able to do the physical things but still want to have fun in VR... And Ghosts of Tabor for me still falls in that category.. Vail keep it pure... Breachers, nja, breachers is not going for realism per se.... but it is a competitive-like title... Kinda trying to be R6 (falling way short imo, don't get me wrong it's a fun game, but it's not quite there yet). But R6 has way more options when it comes to penetrable surfaces.. That that makes R6 way more tactical.. You can make your own sight lines..(provided the surfaces between you and what you want to see are all penetrable) That makes R6 way more tactical... I do like that Breachers doesn't have a gazillion gadgets... VS R6 Like seriously, in season 3 I already thought the amount of gadgets was getting out of hand.. And it's only gotten worst...I do like the drone everyone has.. And some of the camera thingies.. But the amount of gadgets in R6 is way out of hand...
@@jazzdirt I kinda think that, considering this would be an uncharted territory for VR shooters, new games might as well adopt only one hyper-realistic controls scheme at least initially, as part of its launch. It is healthy for games in new media (which VR kinda still is) to experiment with controls and the flexibility and limitation of the design space.
Existing games might try some as options, but I don't think they should do a 180 switch immediately, that would be too much of a betrayal.
And since we're talking new games vs old ones, no one would be taking away your preexisting favorite game. And by the time you're looking for a new one, hopefully there would be some that learned on past experiments and mistakes (kinda like first 3d games happened)
I'm honestly just waiting for some Ready Player One type shit
bruh
@@samuelprod why? thats sick
@@justlafver4931 idk I was baked asf when i read that and that was my genuine stoned reaction
1) Movement acceleration promotes more stationary engagement. Where, in a firefight, it's better to stand still behind cover rather than to move to another spot for cover/positioning. It also has a clear gatekeep depending on how much room you actually have to move around in. One with more room to physically move around in has a greater advantage than one with minimal room. Example: Two players spot each other in an open area. P1 has the ability to take 1-2 wide steps vs P2 that only has enough space to lean/tilt. P1 has an advantage for moving to cover by both physically taking a wide step and virtually moving to negate the acceleration, while P2 is still stuck with acceleration in the open. I'm not saying that the acceleration would be slow as molasses or that this benefit doesn't already exist, but this changes a very generic situation into a penalty for someone not having that space.
2) Instead of movement acceleration, I would do twitch deceleration. Where, if the game detects rapid left/right movement, the characters speed starts decelerating. This better penalizes the specific action rather than general movement.
3) Another downside for arm movement is if you move your arms to either melee, rapidly turn to aim, or change/reload weapons; you risk moving out of position.
4) Instead of forcing everyone to use hybrid turning and vignetting, just have the arms lag behind slightly when snap turning. This keeps the snap turning for motion sickness, lets the in game model adjust more naturally, and keeps your penalty for not physically moving.
I do agree with some things and I understand your suggestions is for promoting more physical movement to justify the benefit/need for VR. But many of your nerfs risk turning VR tedious if they were all implemented. Your arguments would better benefit a select niche or feel one could consider rather than telling everyone what every VR shooter should be aiming for.
love the use of THE FINALS gameplay
Another thing I want devs to start looking into is using your voice in games. Like telling NPCs to do something rather than just pushing a button to "talk". This would open a whole new dimension of interaction in VR.
I could see this happening in the near future since we already have the technology of voice to text, chat GPT that is capable of believing it is a character with a set backstory(so it would know it is a scientist or soldier and talk like they would), and voice deepfakes for npc saying unlimited things with human voices.
Imagen the NPC’s in GTA 6 have chat GPT built into there behavior so they can dynamicly plead for their life to the player on a future hover military rocket shooting pink aircraft
Reading through the comments, it seems most of the people that disagree with the points brought up in the video cite accessibility as the main problem with the ideas presented. The argument, that these potential solutions to the bland state of VR shooters, are designed to exclude those with limited mobility, misses the purpose of the video. The concept of these "difficulty tweaks" is to provide a potentially enhanced experience for those that wish to partake in them. Developers are given the choice the fall on either side of this fence, but previously only decided to view it from a distance or not even consider that which could bring them closer to using the full potential of 6DoF movement. There will always be those that, be they developers or players, will prefer to stay with the current systems. However, denying that these concepts be even considered is closer to saying that bike races shouldn't exist because "What about people in wheelchairs?" or "I'm too tired at the end of a work day to ride in the Tour de France." than actually being concerned about the accessibility of these potential "games", if you can even call them such at that point. Some gain great enjoyment out of strenuous, physically demanding analouges to their favorite sport or fantasy, hence such activities as virtual races using pedal machines for cyclists, and paintball or airsoft for more on topic examples. The concept of VR hardware and software, to immerse oneself in a simulated world where you can do and be *anything*, is decades old, but the moment technology begins to give us even the smallest taste of what could come next, the obvious fact that people who experience the world differently would thus also experience a virtual would differently, holds us back, and makes us choose to poorly emulate that which already exists. This video only exists to help build the key that would unlock the door to creativity we can't even imagine yet. There will hopefully be a day when those bound to wheelchairs can walk and exhausting, all day work is a thing of the past, but neither can be achieved by restricting advancement with the fear that those whom you believe must be coddled in a blanket made of the assumption that they can't do anything for themselves, must be held above all else.
Necessity may be the mother of all invention, but Dreams of the Future is most certainly the father.
Love it, totally agree with this. I find when I stop using the turn buttons and physically move for everything a game become much more immersive and enjoyable.
Articulate, sensible, and easy to develop (assuming the game has these principles in mind at the start). Brilliant!
I'm not eloquent. I don't have a RUclips channel. thank you for expressing your opinions. i understand that you don't hate flat screen games. People who haven't played extensively in VR won't understand, I'm sure.
I have 2000 hours in VR shooters and I find some if his points counter productive.
Realism =/= fun. Physicality < Fun.
Some of these ideas don't take into consideration other forms of solution.
Like just nerfing straife movement, like Pavlov did.
He did end up mentioning a solution for crouch spam which I agree with, slowing it down to prevent abuse, Breachers is plagued with this.
Blade and sorcery is a good way to see what you mean with controller motion movement as you use your joystick to walk but swing your arms to run
Yeah I’ll be returning to that in due course. I have my issues with the game’s AI being laughably easy to cheese which put me off, but I respect the whole package very much nonetheless.
@@MrVRVoice yeah the AI is ass
A big reason why people use snap turn is because of the big headsets on your face. They are heavy and clunky. Trying to turn around as fast as possible might not only make you have to aim down sights again, but also adjust your headset as it slid from the sudden motion
100% agreed. Specially on the snap turn it takes so little effort to do so much. Its worse than a "flick" on a normal FPS. I used to use smooth turn until i realized the i was at a big disadvantage.
We also need better controllers that are designed for proper accessories, like gun stocks.
There's no good solution for these because many controllers have no proper mounting points. All 3rd-party accessories require some jank system of tubes and clamps with horribly unrealistic ergonomics (in my opinion). Bolt-action rifles in VR? Forget about it. Also, prepare to spend over 100 bucks for one.
It's shocking how none of the VR manufactures have addressed this, aside from Sony's PlayStation VR Aim Controller. Even the Nintendo Wii had a gun stock accessory.
I designed my own 3D printed adaptable gun-stock for the Quest 2 controllers and while it's OK, it's not perfect because there's a lot of trade-offs between stability, mounting options, weapon types, and so on. I still haven't figured out a good system for bolt-action rifles and probably won't because I can't use it on the Quest 3 because the Q3 controllers don't have the ring I used to mount everything.
In fact, it's almost like Meta specifically designed the Quest 3/Pro controllers so you can't mount anything to them, without modifying them.
I'm hoping that hand tracking will get better and we won't even need the controllers and can instead just pick up a rifle-shaped object and use that as the controller.
ahh 3d printers, when you have one, everything looks like a problem than can be solved with a few hours in CAD software.
@@lucas23453 Ha, you're telling me!
I sometimes invent problems just to solve them with CAD and 3D printing, lmao
You hit so many nails on their heads with this video. I love VR's potential as a medium, but I fundamentally cannot stand how the software has been developed.
With one exception. H3VR. It does *so* much right, I have hundreds of hours in it, and nothing else (VR-wise). It's certainly far from perfect, but the fundamentals are there. I do admit I haven't given a whole lot of other games a chance, though.
As for your specific points, I'd say the issues with armswinger would be best solved by having hip-based directionality (using an additional tracker). Your hips naturally determine where you move, so you've got the "encourage more physical movement" ticked, then you also have your heads and hands independent of your movement direction.
Next, regarding more precise reloads, I'd actually argue it needs to go further than H3. Because of its wide arsenal, every gun is hit or miss on how forgiving and finnicky it is. But for the most part, there is still a lot of "oh you can have it" magic in there. I will say it is difficult because IRL, you have SIGNIFICANTLY more dexterity when it comes to actually feeling and manipulating objects, so maybe it's fair.
Regardless, those games aren't here, and I find that incredibly disappointing. Maybe one day, though!
Really wish the movement standard in VR was as you described. A big benefit of VR gaming is the exercise that you can get out of it, but pretty much every FPS I play never gets my heart rate up because all of the movement is just the analog stick. It is way less immersive than the running method you described from cover to cover