From personal view and experience: having experienced intense trauma, I have used meditation as a defense /avoidance mechanism for dealing with trauma and tasks in the real world. Psychology would perhaps frame it developmental task. I also used confused it with healing when in reality I needed trauma therapy and a safe container in another human being. I confused meditation with bonding because in my early childhood I dissociated severe loneliness feelings and meditation from a place of loneliness is a reenactment of the past trauma. In later stages I found meditation to be healing but not without a foundation in healing and connectedness to other human beings. In the Zen Kloster(center) Buchenberg/Germany they recognized this connection and offer trauma therapy additionally. P.S. This observation has been made by others too that severely hurt people are drawn to meditation practice that induce further dissociation from the body in the field of meditation. Laurence Heller (NARM trauma therapy), Peter levine etc.
It makes sense that meditating can bring you face to face with unwanted thoughts images or emotions but in meditation you train yourself to not be carried away by them
Yes, that is in Zen Buddhism. But what about if at the top of all that we all carry in us one was going to play around covering up with imaginative pleasant, “positive” visualisations?.
@@fntime : I was trying to point out the very direct experience of just sitting down with whatever arises rather than create distraction with some times imaginative visualisation . As a contrast nature visualisations can bring relaxation, healing to body and mind. But although those kind of visualisations use the techniques of meditation such as in/out breathing awareness are not meditations.
@@lorenacharlotte8383 Have you ever tried 'Negation" Fantasy & 'visualization' are products of the mind, phantasms. What do YOU expect to achieve from meditation? What have YOU achieved?
When I first started sitting ten years ago I found that my emotions( anger, sadness, fear etc) sat just below the surface and would start to arise within my awareness. I had a skilled teacher who helped guide me through this. Now I watch the train of thoughts go by like a subway passing through the station seeing their ephemeral nature. I've been on six silent retreats in the Dzogchen tradition and have had different experience's each time.
A lot of the things we call meditation are actually rather busy busy techniques that are supposed to bring the meditator to special mental states eg. TM, Goenka style Vipassana, Merkaba, Yoga - Which is basically the mundane, habitual movement of the self-seeking security and progress via duality and conflict, rather than the opposite : freedom from or seeing the self at work - which we could call daydreaming or shikantaza
Another "danger" in our current commercial environment is that meditation has become divorced from its ethical component (not true of JK Zinn). Heck, the Army trains its snipers to meditate! So they can kill better. Another "danger", related to the first, is that it becomes just another in the endless round of self-improvement fads the US loves. It has truly become all about "me."
Interesting...isn't (the Harpers piece) this like saying because a jogger somewhere had a heart attack while jogging that this form of exercise is dangerous?
As someone who lives with bipolar disorder and has actually had hospital-inducing psychological freak-outs, I would venture to guess that the people who had these freak-outs after intense meditation had them because of underlying and undiagnosed psychological problems that were already present and unaddressed before the meditation practice began. And these problems were probably exacerbated by, as you said, going far too intense way too soon. This is because American capitalist culture wants fast and easy results that can turn a quick profit for one individual at the expense of many peoples' work. I discovered Zen around the time I was in my early twenties and still only starting to exhibit symptoms of bipolar disorder. It took me until my mid-thirties and several mental health crises to finally take my condition seriously and treat it with therapy and medication, win my disability case, and - luckily - enter into a safe and loving living situation.
Only after that did I recently, within the past few years, start very slowly with a daily meditation practice, beginning with just five minutes once a day. In recent days, I'm up to fifteen to twenty minutes twice a day. I find meditation supplements the rest of my mental health treatment very well, in part because of all those years of "research and development" that I'm reading about in Zen and Buddhist books and online sources such as this one.
There is no "dark side" to meditation as there is no "dark side" to an axe. It's an instrument and if you don't know how or why, then you may get hurt. The dark side is within you. Western people with all their education and secular approach like to take parts of eastern esoteric systems. Throw away all the "unnecessary and outdated" stuff, then proceed to get stuck (at best) with their inner content, because without some grasp of philosophy and metaphysics to put your experience into, you'll get lost in dark chambers of your mind. For an average Harper reader, living 10 days without social media and internet surfing would be more than enough to get some transformative experience.
A Zen center I used to attend had a disclaimer for sesshin participants. We asked if they were undergoing psychological treatment. If so, we asked that their therapist give them permission to attend. Regular meditation sessions or even one-day zazenkais don't pose much of a risk in my opinion but for a sesshin, I think obtaining a therapist's consent for someone in therapy is a good idea.
Way, WAY back in the 1970's, Jack Engler somewhat famously said, "You have to be somebody before you can be nobody," a quote that has come back to haunt him. I think it's a pretty good one, myself. As much as I would like to believe meditation is good for everyone--it is for me--it seems reasonable to conclude that some people, through no fault of their own, may be better off not meditating or not meditating yet.
Most people don't understand that meditation works and that they really shouldn't try it without doing some research of their own. The best time to meditate is when you are healthy, both in body and mind, when things are going well for you in life and when you have found a teacher you can trust. Of course, that is not how things generally happen, so most of us give it a go, not really understanding what they are doing. In which case it's not surprising that things can occasionally go wrong, or can at least be unsettling. My advice is to go nowhere near any ten day retreat unless you have put in a few years meditating. Better still would be Brad's ten years or so.
Americans have a reputation in Europe of being gullible in spiritual terms. They tend to speculate their own way with any religion they come across and create numerous sects variations.
@@lorenacharlotte8383 Many try to make their fantasy delusions 'work' Europe doesn't deserve to 'speculate' on others. Europe is in a death spiral, physcially, mentally spiritually, quite delusional. Of course, I'm generalizing. (lol) Too many leave the religion of their childhood, rejecting but accepting most of their wrong applications. Bringing false ideology, excessive intellectualization & over reliance on 'others' for direction defeats the purpose.
As a person interested what others do in terms of zazen, meditation I have come across with very different traditions rather than just zen. Some of those variations offer some very strange meditations with even more strange visualisations. But participants people in all those websites will get very upset if one was going to get into criticism. Consequently nobody is to blame but except ourselves for our wrong choices. I can tell you all that I have been subjected to attack more than once with furious aggressive verbal vocabulary. Eventually I’ve given up trying to warn people not to mess up with their minds.
I've been doing this since I was 22 (almost 15 years now) and I've never had a "freakout" period except with certain forms of meditation that seem to encourage disassociation. For the most part, it's just boredom and the mind going bananas like usual.
Imo the thing is that meditation by itself (without study, a teacher, a community, etc.) is not generally a wise thing to practice for many people. But then I am also of the opinion that most people in the world are traumatized. And on that note I would add that the list I mentioned before that getting professional psychological help (i.e. therapy) can also help a lot in combination with meditation - both with the therapy and with the meditation practice, and with generally living a happier and more compassionate life.
I've heard that there is only one psychological requirement to (safely) practice meditation: to have a strong sense of self or identity; because, so to speak, in order to transcend the ego you must have an ego to transcend in the first place... the same ego to return to safely if things start to get a little bit unsteady.
I feel like some people have experiences that are weird or even very bad and they are fine and some people freak out... I think it was usually the case in asia to try and weed people out in the beginning. You try and find people that are going to be ok with weird or bad things happening. We are very accommodating now...
Not just anyone should be permitted to participate in a lengthy retreat. Ethics around this seem to have been discarded by some teachers. I find that most people in my community seeking meditation instruction are looking to induce altered states, enhance psychism or intuition, heal themselves from cancer/disease, add it as a modality to monetize or to manifest the life of their dreams. The questions I get are troubling. The disappointment is evident when I explain the beginner practice much as you did - to just get practicing and learn how to work with the discomfort, restlessness and boredom, which might take years. If someone earnestly wants to practice and learn I offer many resources, but we're up against all the brands, influencers, celebrity endorsements, cults and apps. I hesitate to teach beginners who actively struggle with sobriety or who are in acute emotional/mental/stress crisis unless they are under care of a mental health professional. So, basically, I am a wildly unpopular meditation teacher.
Traditionally, the Meditation-school (佛禅) is regarded as a part of the Buddhist movement. Therefore, normally it is closely connected with the Buddhist world-view .... and soteriology .... as the basic intellectual and motivational guide-lines (which sometimes are explicitly explained via the didactic devise of a kind of "little catechism"). The method---methodology of Zazen, furthermore, represents only one of a multitude of ideally "useful means". This would be the traditional "framing" (meant here as a neutral term) of the special way-practice of Zazen. In this way, it should be kind of self-evident for every "trainee" that the whole Buddhist "religion" has much to do with "transcendence", and less with "getting kicks" (which may, as well, play their role, albeit, seen from a conventional Buddhist view, only on a secondary order). If the practice of "sitting" is widely dissociated form the world-view/soteriology, it may as well be regarded as only one of the many psycho-techniques, offered in the global word-view-and life-style supermarket of today; this trend is obvious.
Insight meditation should just be that. Observing and noting whatever arises during the meditation. Some are disappointed that they are not experiencing blissful, mystical or altered states Accepting things as they are, not as you want them to be, is vitally important
I did a couple of retreats at Goenka's Dhamma Athala center in Italy; and basically you described the thing accurately - the second time I got a one month-long panic attack, just saying. Previously, using a mantra technique, I had just a short hypomaniac phase (people with depression, like I used to be, seem to be prone to those). I think nowadays Goenka's centers are enjoying a renowed popularity since a fashionable intellectual as Yuval Harari has said to be a follower. Doctrinally they use a standard, Theravadin interpretation of the Satipatthana Sutta, and adhere *strictly* to that, and only that, text (they even organize special retreats dedicated to studying it - never attended one, so I can't tell how they manage those). Harari does the same speaking about "Buddhism", and in fact you can tell he doesn't get jack shit
Coincidentally, when I hit a Dark Patch, Brad puts out a Video on them. Being that this is the not the first time this has happened, it's seemed to become a "Huh, this again?" Type thing. Although not always, I had a real Meltdown in 2020 that started before Covid hit and lasted most of the year, probably exacerbated by losing other structures in my life to the Pandemic like, AlAnon and, socializing. I lived though.
I think this topic is viewed entirely backwards. DIabetics have a propensity to try certain herbal/natural aids. Should we conclude that these aids caused diabetes? I think it's the same thing with "meditation causes psychotic episodes." People often turn to meditation because something is wrong. If a person depends upon their inner-narration (self talk), then seeing how they narrate to themselves (watching the thinker through mindfulness), that can be like ripping a security blanket from a child. It can be very stressful to face that reality. It's _already_ a form of psychosis. Then it becomes self-diagnosed. The meditation is the "examination." The question is whether it's better to go through life mildly psychotic (believing your narrative, for existential reasons), or recognizing that reality (and being stressed by that. Destabilized, but presumably in a good way?).
Just out of curiosity, how long does that freakout period usually last? Did it slowly fade away or did it propel in some new period the moment it was gone? (All that probably answered in some old video though I'm guessing)
In my case it was one really bad night. But there were a few weeks or months of less disturbing weirdness that came before it. After that one night where it got really intense, it hasn't happened again.
There is a story about the Goenka retreat somewhere on the web. Sounded like a cult. The guy had a handler who even followed him into the men' s room! 😮
Sort of agree but i also feel like youre downplaying the possible severity of those dark phases/negative effects and what role ones mental health plays in that context. I know several people whove gotten severe depersonalization/derealization from it, and it doesnt necessarily take a retreat to do that. And those people didnt just go through a "rough patch" but years and years of hellish torture, psychwards and suicidality. Sounds extreme but its true. Yes thats not super common but definitely common enough to really be careful, especially if youre in some form mentally unstable to begin with. In my case, i never got anything like that through meditation alone, but more so through all the noself, self inquiry stuff. PSychward twice and 4 years later im still not in a good place, bit of a different story for me and doesnt quite relate yea. But throguh my experience ive learned about how relatively common such things are as effects from meditation itself
People today are using meditation apps and I think, that's a bigger problem than a bad teacher... They are focused on using meditation to become more and more productive. I think, they are trapped in thoughts and concepts of self and others (duality). But I don't know.
Every so often someone commits suicide after a Vipassana 10-day retreat. They do stipulate that if you have pre-existing mental health problems you shouldn't go. But I guess it could sneak up on one. These difficulties are the basis of why profitting from Dharma is a total no-no. Just to be clear, I do know that Vipassana is free, and for a good reason. I've been practicing daily for 8 years. Every so often it is very weird. I just keep going. It doesn't last.
You're the first person to ask that! It was part of a movie I was in called Zombie Bounty Hunter M.D. I don't think the bunny costume is ever actually explained in the movie...
One time I came to the conclusion, logically, that I was God. It was scary. My mind was like “Nope, not ready for this!” My problem now is trying not to wear that experience like a badge of honor.
Logical conclusions (and their accompanying emotions) are a part of the neverending theater of analysis that is the human brain - it is an honor (though sometimes also a disgrace) to be part of the human race
This shouldn’t really be that surprising when you excuse a single practice from a two and a half millennia old tradition that’s probably well aware of these kinds of issues and has ways of handling them or avoiding them entirely. I’ve never been comfortable with secular meditation for this exact reason.
meditation is basically "recursive", that is, it alters you in uncontrolled ways. everybody gets scathed by it with the degree and presentation varying however life scathes you as does a lack of self-reflection or understanding how we work as cognitive machines so the context is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, some will get better than that and a few worse so that's my basic observation of meditation, six of one and half a dozen of the other, and you can go to five or four of one and 7 or8 of the other and in a few cases really extreme results like psychotic breaks or on the positive side as joko beck put it, seeing the train run through the station a hundred times without stopping, then one day its pulls up in front of you and you get on board the basic problem is you have to go to a retreat prepared, that is, having read widely of "quality" mystical literature and having done a reasonable degree of meditation before, without this you will lack direction and may go down wrong and dangerous roads depending on the meditator's personality and how misguided the teacher is and some of them are really clueless there are other issues, like most retreats are vegetarian and to go straight from a meat eating diet to vegetarian with the isolation of retreat is not helpful, i di a retreat which served meat at a cistercian monastery and honestly it was like night and day more sane and pleasant another issue is the metabolic health problems from doing too much sitting, i don't feel the sustained periods of sitting in meditation are safe once you are over 45, though this will vary considerably from person to person, but modern cardiovascular health is not good, even amongst the young and i personally knew of a heavy duty meditator who died of stroke when really he was too young to have that happen the last point that i am sure will be least understood, is you should grow out of meditation over several years from starting it, i think it took me about three or four years and it was a distinct observation that it no longer had anything to offer, and now i just spend time in the evening not doing anything for several hours
Just one dark patch? haha, god having a teacher might have helped me with all that It sort of sounds like "set and setting" from all the lsd literature.
Phenomenology of religion for one shows: Cults and cultish practices can derange and even split families. Another point: Even some Zen-masters are aware of the addictive potential of Zazen (and of useful antidotes). So, one might say: Handle with care to avoid Fox-Zen and Zen-sicknesses! Maybe, that is what the article, in sum/gist, wanted to stress.
@@gunterappoldt3037 I think I was maybe too quick to dismiss the claim. There are countless mysterious things I don't understand. Best to do as Brad says: have a teacher, take it slow and use a framework to conceptualise and understand the 'demons'. For example, I recall watching a video of someone that claimed to meditate without a sangha for six hours a day. She then started to hear voices of demons, and saw this as a sign that meditation is satanic and that she should become a Christian. She probably could have used the above advice. (not that there is anything wrong with becoming a Christian ofc)
@@bookerbooker6317 yes, what we call religion can become tricky sometimes, so best handle with care. Even many open-minded people from the clergy know that quite well and try to integrate, e.g., relevant psychological knowledge into the pastoral care.
I think young Brad takes these stupid stories from stupid people in the stupid press way too serious. These days everybody is a victim of some kind of repression and half of them have childhood traumas. Increasingly many feel they are born in the wrong body, or identify as Native Americans. Society is just getting mad and people are psychologically challenged. More and more are on pharma drugs and need psychologists or psychiatrists. People blaming meditation for their psychological imbalances or other problems are becoming more numerous, just as the number of crazies in general. Nothing to worry about. It will all get much better when we all have received the Pfizer, AstraZenica or Moderna gene therapy, universal basic income has become the standard and the Chinese system of total surveillance and the social credit system are been implemented. Yoga and meditation teachers will need government approval and supervision, and vitamin D is made a prescription drug. Don't worry, be happy as long as it lasts.
S N Goenka's 10 day Silent Vipassana retreat is the newly "discovered" original meditation as the Buddha meant it to be 😮. Simplistic hinayana doctrine via video and all day busy busy meditation technique in total silence, monitored by young metaphysical hipsters. All participants finish the retreat with a bout of depression or elation. Mega experience for all.
That's a strange view. Zazen is simply being aware, it's nothing to be afraid of. Yet, if there is a lot of confusion going on in the mind, it can be overwhelming when one shines a light on it if they don't normally.
Claiming that these realms are not actually places is openly spreading wrong view. Quantum theory makes it very clear that there is no reason why these realms can’t exist. For your own good, please keep your wrong view to yourself if you can’t overcome it via opening your mind.
From personal view and experience: having experienced intense trauma, I have used meditation as a defense /avoidance mechanism for dealing with trauma and tasks in the real world. Psychology would perhaps frame it developmental task. I also used confused it with healing when in reality I needed trauma therapy and a safe container in another human being. I confused meditation with bonding because in my early childhood I dissociated severe loneliness feelings and meditation from a place of loneliness is a reenactment of the past trauma. In later stages I found meditation to be healing but not without a foundation in healing and connectedness to other human beings.
In the Zen Kloster(center) Buchenberg/Germany they recognized this connection and offer trauma therapy additionally.
P.S. This observation has been made by others too that severely hurt people are drawn to meditation practice that induce further dissociation from the body in the field of meditation. Laurence Heller (NARM trauma therapy), Peter levine etc.
It makes sense that meditating can bring you face to face with unwanted thoughts images or emotions but in meditation you train yourself to not be carried away by them
Yes, that is in Zen Buddhism. But what about if at the top of all that we all carry in us one was going to play around covering up with imaginative pleasant, “positive” visualisations?.
@@lorenacharlotte8383 Lorena, you are trying to make a point which I'm
not getting. Can YOU elaborate? Thank You :)
@@fntime : I was trying to point out the very direct experience of just sitting down with whatever arises rather than create distraction with some times imaginative visualisation . As a contrast nature visualisations can bring relaxation, healing to body and mind. But although those kind of visualisations use the techniques of meditation such as in/out breathing awareness are not meditations.
@@lorenacharlotte8383 Have you ever
tried 'Negation"
Fantasy & 'visualization' are products
of the mind, phantasms.
What do YOU expect to achieve from
meditation?
What have YOU achieved?
@@fntime : I haven’t achieved anything. Nor I have any expectation while sitting down.
I think it was Suzuki Roshi who said, "Enlightenment is an accident. Meditation makes you accident-prone."
That is a very good way to put it!
When I first started sitting ten years ago I found that my emotions( anger, sadness, fear etc) sat just below the surface and would start to arise within my awareness. I had a skilled teacher who helped guide me through this. Now I watch the train of thoughts go by like a subway passing through the station seeing their ephemeral nature. I've been on six silent retreats in the Dzogchen tradition and have had different experience's each time.
A lot of the things we call meditation are actually rather busy busy techniques that are supposed to bring the meditator to special mental states eg. TM, Goenka style Vipassana, Merkaba, Yoga - Which is basically the mundane, habitual movement of the self-seeking security and progress via duality and conflict, rather than the opposite : freedom from or seeing the self at work - which we could call daydreaming or shikantaza
Another "danger" in our current commercial environment is that meditation has become divorced from its ethical component (not true of JK Zinn). Heck, the Army trains its snipers to meditate! So they can kill better. Another "danger", related to the first, is that it becomes just another in the endless round of self-improvement fads the US loves. It has truly become all about "me."
Interesting...isn't (the Harpers piece) this like saying because a jogger somewhere had a heart attack while jogging that this form of exercise is dangerous?
In a sense jogging is dangerous. To some people. It's kind of the same idea.
As someone who lives with bipolar disorder and has actually had hospital-inducing psychological freak-outs, I would venture to guess that the people who had these freak-outs after intense meditation had them because of underlying and undiagnosed psychological problems that were already present and unaddressed before the meditation practice began.
And these problems were probably exacerbated by, as you said, going far too intense way too soon. This is because American capitalist culture wants fast and easy results that can turn a quick profit for one individual at the expense of many peoples' work.
I discovered Zen around the time I was in my early twenties and still only starting to exhibit symptoms of bipolar disorder. It took me until my mid-thirties and several mental health crises to finally take my condition seriously and treat it with therapy and medication, win my disability case, and - luckily - enter into a safe and loving living situation.
Only after that did I recently, within the past few years, start very slowly with a daily meditation practice, beginning with just five minutes once a day. In recent days, I'm up to fifteen to twenty minutes twice a day. I find meditation supplements the rest of my mental health treatment very well, in part because of all those years of "research and development" that I'm reading about in Zen and Buddhist books and online sources such as this one.
Thank you. I think you're right. I'm glad you got help and got better!
There is no "dark side" to meditation as there is no "dark side" to an axe. It's an instrument and if you don't know how or why, then you may get hurt. The dark side is within you.
Western people with all their education and secular approach like to take parts of eastern esoteric systems. Throw away all the "unnecessary and outdated" stuff, then proceed to get stuck (at best) with their inner content, because without some grasp of philosophy and metaphysics to put your experience into, you'll get lost in dark chambers of your mind.
For an average Harper reader, living 10 days without social media and internet surfing would be more than enough to get some transformative experience.
A Zen center I used to attend had a disclaimer for sesshin participants. We asked if they were undergoing psychological treatment. If so, we asked that their therapist give them permission to attend. Regular meditation sessions or even one-day zazenkais don't pose much of a risk in my opinion but for a sesshin, I think obtaining a therapist's consent for someone in therapy is a good idea.
“As early as 1976!” You crack me up sometimes brad
I thought that was funny. This is something Buddhists have written extensively about since before Jesus was born.
@@HardcoreZen pretty ironic how they discredit their own argument while making it hahah
Way, WAY back in the 1970's, Jack Engler somewhat famously said, "You have to be somebody before you can be nobody," a quote that has come back to haunt him. I think it's a pretty good one, myself. As much as I would like to believe meditation is good for everyone--it is for me--it seems reasonable to conclude that some people, through no fault of their own, may be better off not meditating or not meditating yet.
Most people don't understand that meditation works and that they really shouldn't try it without doing some research of their own. The best time to meditate is when you are healthy, both in body and mind, when things are going well for you in life and when you have found a teacher you can trust. Of course, that is not how things generally happen, so most of us give it a go, not really understanding what they are doing. In which case it's not surprising that things can occasionally go wrong, or can at least be unsettling. My advice is to go nowhere near any ten day retreat unless you have put in a few years meditating. Better still would be Brad's ten years or so.
Americans have a reputation in Europe of being gullible in spiritual terms. They tend to speculate their own way with any religion they come across and create numerous sects variations.
@@lorenacharlotte8383 Many try to make their fantasy delusions 'work'
Europe doesn't deserve to 'speculate' on others. Europe is in a
death spiral, physcially, mentally spiritually, quite delusional.
Of course, I'm generalizing. (lol)
Too many leave the religion of their childhood, rejecting but
accepting most of their wrong applications.
Bringing false ideology, excessive intellectualization & over
reliance on 'others' for direction defeats the purpose.
As a person interested what others do in terms of zazen, meditation I have come across with very different traditions rather than just zen. Some of those variations offer some very strange meditations with even more strange visualisations. But participants people in all those websites will get very upset if one was going to get into criticism. Consequently nobody is to blame but except ourselves for our wrong choices. I can tell you all that I have been subjected to attack more than once with furious aggressive verbal vocabulary. Eventually I’ve given up trying to warn people not to mess up with their minds.
Lorena, you are extremely confused. YOU should NOT offer advise, BUT
your experience has value. :)
I've been doing this since I was 22 (almost 15 years now) and I've never had a "freakout" period except with certain forms of meditation that seem to encourage disassociation. For the most part, it's just boredom and the mind going bananas like usual.
Such a good and important topic, that really can use all the experienced voices possible. Thank you for bringing this up (many, many times) 🙏
Imo the thing is that meditation by itself (without study, a teacher, a community, etc.) is not generally a wise thing to practice for many people. But then I am also of the opinion that most people in the world are traumatized. And on that note I would add that the list I mentioned before that getting professional psychological help (i.e. therapy) can also help a lot in combination with meditation - both with the therapy and with the meditation practice, and with generally living a happier and more compassionate life.
So sound. Voice of wisdom, much needed. Thanks Brad 🙏
It's like the reefer madness campaigns of the 1930's. lol.
WORSE!
Makyo is normal and part of the process of meditation. The thing is to not get lost in it, not entertain it.
Perfect! Ive have been sitting for around 5 years now and a Zazenkai is still challeging for me
You might try going to the local saloon. If nothing else the company
will be more enjoyable :)
I've heard that there is only one psychological requirement to (safely) practice meditation:
to have a strong sense of self or identity;
because, so to speak,
in order to transcend the ego
you must have an ego to transcend in the first place...
the same ego to return to safely if things start to get a little bit unsteady.
Maybe
I feel like some people have experiences that are weird or even very bad and they are fine and some people freak out... I think it was usually the case in asia to try and weed people out in the beginning. You try and find people that are going to be ok with weird or bad things happening. We are very accommodating now...
Not just anyone should be permitted to participate in a lengthy retreat. Ethics around this seem to have been discarded by some teachers. I find that most people in my community seeking meditation instruction are looking to induce altered states, enhance psychism or intuition, heal themselves from cancer/disease, add it as a modality to monetize or to manifest the life of their dreams. The questions I get are troubling. The disappointment is evident when I explain the beginner practice much as you did - to just get practicing and learn how to work with the discomfort, restlessness and boredom, which might take years. If someone earnestly wants to practice and learn I offer many resources, but we're up against all the brands, influencers, celebrity endorsements, cults and apps. I hesitate to teach beginners who actively struggle with sobriety or who are in acute emotional/mental/stress crisis unless they are under care of a mental health professional. So, basically, I am a wildly unpopular meditation teacher.
I think it's better to be wildly unpopular. People looking for altered states often find them, which can be a big problem. Thank you for commenting!
Traditionally, the Meditation-school (佛禅) is regarded as a part of the Buddhist movement. Therefore, normally it is closely connected with the Buddhist world-view .... and soteriology .... as the basic intellectual and motivational guide-lines (which sometimes are explicitly explained via the didactic devise of a kind of "little catechism"). The method---methodology of Zazen, furthermore, represents only one of a multitude of ideally "useful means". This would be the traditional "framing" (meant here as a neutral term) of the special way-practice of Zazen.
In this way, it should be kind of self-evident for every "trainee" that the whole Buddhist "religion" has much to do with "transcendence", and less with "getting kicks" (which may, as well, play their role, albeit, seen from a conventional Buddhist view, only on a secondary order).
If the practice of "sitting" is widely dissociated form the world-view/soteriology, it may as well be regarded as only one of the many psycho-techniques, offered in the global word-view-and life-style supermarket of today; this trend is obvious.
Insight meditation should just be that. Observing and noting whatever arises during the meditation. Some are disappointed that they are not experiencing blissful, mystical or altered states Accepting things as they are, not as you want them to be, is vitally important
I did a couple of retreats at Goenka's Dhamma Athala center in Italy; and basically you described the thing accurately - the second time I got a one month-long panic attack, just saying. Previously, using a mantra technique, I had just a short hypomaniac phase (people with depression, like I used to be, seem to be prone to those). I think nowadays Goenka's centers are enjoying a renowed popularity since a fashionable intellectual as Yuval Harari has said to be a follower. Doctrinally they use a standard, Theravadin interpretation of the Satipatthana Sutta, and adhere *strictly* to that, and only that, text (they even organize special retreats dedicated to studying it - never attended one, so I can't tell how they manage those). Harari does the same speaking about "Buddhism", and in fact you can tell he doesn't get jack shit
That's interesting. Is he the guy that wrote Sapiens? I liked that book.
@@HardcoreZen Yeah, that's him
Coincidentally, when I hit a Dark Patch, Brad puts out a Video on them. Being that this is the not the first time this has happened, it's seemed to become a "Huh, this again?" Type thing. Although not always, I had a real Meltdown in 2020 that started before Covid hit and lasted most of the year, probably exacerbated by losing other structures in my life to the Pandemic like, AlAnon and, socializing. I lived though.
I think this topic is viewed entirely backwards. DIabetics have a propensity to try certain herbal/natural aids. Should we conclude that these aids caused diabetes? I think it's the same thing with "meditation causes psychotic episodes."
People often turn to meditation because something is wrong. If a person depends upon their inner-narration (self talk), then seeing how they narrate to themselves (watching the thinker through mindfulness), that can be like ripping a security blanket from a child. It can be very stressful to face that reality. It's _already_ a form of psychosis. Then it becomes self-diagnosed. The meditation is the "examination." The question is whether it's better to go through life mildly psychotic (believing your narrative, for existential reasons), or recognizing that reality (and being stressed by that. Destabilized, but presumably in a good way?).
Those are good points! Thank you!
100% agree.
Just out of curiosity, how long does that freakout period usually last? Did it slowly fade away or did it propel in some new period the moment it was gone? (All that probably answered in some old video though I'm guessing)
In my case it was one really bad night. But there were a few weeks or months of less disturbing weirdness that came before it. After that one night where it got really intense, it hasn't happened again.
@@HardcoreZen gotcha thanks!
There is a story about the Goenka retreat somewhere on the web. Sounded like a cult. The guy had a handler who even followed him into the men' s room! 😮
Sitting does let me see my neurosis. But in order to laugh at myself and not take myself seriously.
Sort of agree but i also feel like youre downplaying the possible severity of those dark phases/negative effects and what role ones mental health plays in that context.
I know several people whove gotten severe depersonalization/derealization from it, and it doesnt necessarily take a retreat to do that.
And those people didnt just go through a "rough patch" but years and years of hellish torture, psychwards and suicidality. Sounds extreme but its true.
Yes thats not super common but definitely common enough to really be careful, especially if youre in some form mentally unstable to begin with.
In my case, i never got anything like that through meditation alone, but more so through all the noself, self inquiry stuff.
PSychward twice and 4 years later im still not in a good place, bit of a different story for me and doesnt quite relate yea. But throguh my experience ive learned about how relatively common such things are as effects from meditation itself
People today are using meditation apps and I think, that's a bigger problem than a bad teacher...
They are focused on using meditation to become more and more productive.
I think, they are trapped in thoughts and concepts of self and others (duality).
But I don't know.
It sounds like you know. Apps are mostly terrible.
Yeah... I don't think a meditation app is the way to go.
Every so often someone commits suicide after a Vipassana 10-day retreat. They do stipulate that if you have pre-existing mental health problems you shouldn't go. But I guess it could sneak up on one.
These difficulties are the basis of why profitting from Dharma is a total no-no. Just to be clear, I do know that Vipassana is free, and for a good reason. I've been practicing daily for 8 years. Every so often it is very weird. I just keep going. It doesn't last.
"Physical Risks with Exercise"
Plywood. Step ladder. Rake.
why the pink rabbit suit?
You're the first person to ask that! It was part of a movie I was in called Zombie Bounty Hunter M.D. I don't think the bunny costume is ever actually explained in the movie...
One time I came to the conclusion, logically, that I was God. It was scary. My mind was like “Nope, not ready for this!” My problem now is trying not to wear that experience like a badge of honor.
Logical conclusions (and their accompanying emotions) are a part of the neverending theater of analysis that is the human brain - it is an honor (though sometimes also a disgrace) to be part of the human race
if you are god, its a pretty limited franchise
I think it was Ram Dass who replied to someone with a similar experience "Yes, you are God. And so is everybody else."
@@grok023 well he was wrong
@@grok023 Yup, of course those that haven't experienced that won't understand.
This shouldn’t really be that surprising when you excuse a single practice from a two and a half millennia old tradition that’s probably well aware of these kinds of issues and has ways of handling them or avoiding them entirely. I’ve never been comfortable with secular meditation for this exact reason.
meditation is basically "recursive", that is, it alters you in uncontrolled ways. everybody gets scathed by it with the degree and presentation varying
however life scathes you as does a lack of self-reflection or understanding how we work as cognitive machines so the context is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, some will get better than that and a few worse
so that's my basic observation of meditation, six of one and half a dozen of the other, and you can go to five or four of one and 7 or8 of the other and in a few cases really extreme results like psychotic breaks or on the positive side as joko beck put it, seeing the train run through the station a hundred times without stopping, then one day its pulls up in front of you and you get on board
the basic problem is you have to go to a retreat prepared, that is, having read widely of "quality" mystical literature and having done a reasonable degree of meditation before, without this you will lack direction and may go down wrong and dangerous roads depending on the meditator's personality and how misguided the teacher is and some of them are really clueless
there are other issues, like most retreats are vegetarian and to go straight from a meat eating diet to vegetarian with the isolation of retreat is not helpful, i di a retreat which served meat at a cistercian monastery and honestly it was like night and day more sane and pleasant
another issue is the metabolic health problems from doing too much sitting, i don't feel the sustained periods of sitting in meditation are safe once you are over 45, though this will vary considerably from person to person, but modern cardiovascular health is not good, even amongst the young and i personally knew of a heavy duty meditator who died of stroke when really he was too young to have that happen
the last point that i am sure will be least understood, is you should grow out of meditation over several years from starting it, i think it took me about three or four years and it was a distinct observation that it no longer had anything to offer, and now i just spend time in the evening not doing anything for several hours
Just one dark patch? haha, god having a teacher might have helped me with all that
It sort of sounds like "set and setting" from all the lsd literature.
🙏🧘♀️
Article sounds like a false cause. Meditating means you stop caring about your children? Silly.
It's a very odd claim, that one. I've never come across that particular complaint before.
Phenomenology of religion for one shows: Cults and cultish practices can derange and even split families. Another point: Even some Zen-masters are aware of the addictive potential of Zazen (and of useful antidotes). So, one might say: Handle with care to avoid Fox-Zen and Zen-sicknesses! Maybe, that is what the article, in sum/gist, wanted to stress.
@@gunterappoldt3037 I think I was maybe too quick to dismiss the claim. There are countless mysterious things I don't understand. Best to do as Brad says: have a teacher, take it slow and use a framework to conceptualise and understand the 'demons'.
For example, I recall watching a video of someone that claimed to meditate without a sangha for six hours a day. She then started to hear voices of demons, and saw this as a sign that meditation is satanic and that she should become a Christian. She probably could have used the above advice. (not that there is anything wrong with becoming a Christian ofc)
@@bookerbooker6317 yes, what we call religion can become tricky sometimes, so best handle with care. Even many open-minded people from the clergy know that quite well and try to integrate, e.g., relevant psychological knowledge into the pastoral care.
I think young Brad takes these stupid stories from stupid people in the stupid press way too serious. These days everybody is a victim of some kind of repression and half of them have childhood traumas. Increasingly many feel they are born in the wrong body, or identify as Native Americans. Society is just getting mad and people are psychologically challenged. More and more are on pharma drugs and need psychologists or psychiatrists. People blaming meditation for their psychological imbalances or other problems are becoming more numerous, just as the number of crazies in general. Nothing to worry about. It will all get much better when we all have received the Pfizer, AstraZenica or Moderna gene therapy, universal basic income has become the standard and the Chinese system of total surveillance and the social credit system are been implemented. Yoga and meditation teachers will need government approval and supervision, and vitamin D is made a prescription drug. Don't worry, be happy as long as it lasts.
What's your real name? Your voice sounds familiar as hell
Brad Warner.
@@HardcoreZen False alarm
S N Goenka's 10 day Silent Vipassana retreat is the newly "discovered" original meditation as the Buddha meant it to be 😮. Simplistic hinayana doctrine via video and all day busy busy meditation technique in total silence, monitored by young metaphysical hipsters. All participants finish the retreat with a bout of depression or elation. Mega experience for all.
Yes , meditation is a hospital you don't want to go there but it s needed to heal your subconscious part
That's a strange view. Zazen is simply being aware, it's nothing to be afraid of. Yet, if there is a lot of confusion going on in the mind, it can be overwhelming when one shines a light on it if they don't normally.
@@BullyMaguire4ever : Awareness is also best method for me. Nothing to do but just stopping with one presence there dwelling in the here and the now.
🤣😂🤣😂
Do it write and it is totally Blissfull. This is nothing but Believers trying to rubbish something they know nothing of
Meditation is a drug. Legislate against it.
Claiming that these realms are not actually places is openly spreading wrong view. Quantum theory makes it very clear that there is no reason why these realms can’t exist. For your own good, please keep your wrong view to yourself if you can’t overcome it via opening your mind.
Which of these realms are real places?