MiSTer FPGA DE-10 - FPGA Emulation vs Software Emulation in RetroArch - which is "better"
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
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I asked, you answered...and I try to listen :) Of all the requests for new content on the channel one of the most frequently asked for videos is a series on the Terasic DE-10 Nano MiSTer FPGA hardware...so here it is!
On this episode of our MiSTer series we will be directly comparing the MiSTer FPGA project vs software emulation; I will be using RetroArch with the best cores available. Is MiSTer more accurate? Is it worth the money? It software emulation still the route to go? I will give you my opinion on all these questions in the video :) But both MiSter and RetroArch are awesome so...
Questions? Comments? Just leave them below and I will do my best to answer each and every one of them!
/ videogameesoterica
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VGE 
Игры
I’d love to see a blind test where people play a level on fpga or software emulation and have to guess which one they got.
That would be a ton of fun
Yeah like Pepsi challenge
@@VideoGameEsoterica This is what we need. Cant believe no one has done it yet.
Maybe one day!
Both options are great. You can emulate systems that the MiSTer will never be able to do. You can have multiple instant saves with emulation and in many emulators you can upscale the resolution. If you want gameplay as close to the original consoles as possible the MiSTer is the way to go. If you really like retro-gaming, you should use both options as they fit your needs or desires. Neither option is wrong.
Yes and that’s the great part. More options are better...and that’s coming from someone who owns all the consoles that MiSTer has cores for and has a closet filled to the brim with arcade PCBs
Not worth the price difference in my opinion, plus software emulation has around a 20 year head start. You can basically emulate alot more cores via software emulation.
And that’s fair. Everyone gets to decide what they want. But that 20 year head start is meaningless when the finished cores are as good if not better than software. Time doesn’t equal better in this instance.
I truly don’t have a horse in the game. As long as people are playing retro games I’m happy :) do it how you want!
I thought there would be latency direct comparisons
eventually. I don't have a latency monitor currently
@@VideoGameEsoterica Reach out to Retro RGB and do a colab video. It's right up his alley.
I wonder where he’s located out of. I’ve never collaborated on the channel actually
@@VideoGameEsoterica New York
Bit far LOL
Loved the comparison. I never quit on software emulation even after getting a MiSTer. Sometimes it's just more convenient to boot up a game on my PC. Also having pretty much every emulator support save states on PC is a huge plus. I just don't have the time to play games from start to finish in one sitting anymore, so save states are a god send. It's great to have options.
Haha funny you comment now as I just started editing individual “MiSTer VS Emulator” for all the major platforms. Should be fun!
What's amusing about this video is that the colors on the left are obviously wrong. It's way too saturated. Those aren't accurate colors. All the RGB colors in the palettes Capcom chose have values that are divisible by 8. I've studied the palettes of CPS1 games and can definitively say that the colors in Mister here are wrong.
You can just see how the Mister feed on the left is far too saturated. Haggar looks radioactive.
The MiSTer colors are usually more intense in my experience
Series X is a pretty impressive emulation system after all. Now if only I could find one lol
@@VideoGameEsoterica you can do the same with Series S.
good review but pls not talk much when doing audio comparison. good job & thanks a lot.
Mesen for the NES and BSNES for the SNES have 1:1 parity with real hardware in regard to accuracy, so an FPGA for those systems is somewhat redundant if you have a powerful PC, because accurate software emulation is resource intensive.
Those are the emulators I used for the comparisons coming this fall :)
@@VideoGameEsoterica Neat :)
Yeah it should be a good time!
Haven't tested Mesen but just wanted to add that for BSNES you dont even need a powerful PC. Even on my Android tablet (basically a Galaxy S10 SOC) BSNES HD core runs perfect, although w/o run ahead.
Good to know
This didn't help much... I am trying to sell myself WHY I need a MiSTer.... as emulation of most systems on fairly new hardware is pretty easy, and with like Emulation Station, or something like that, you get a really nice looking interface (a lot better than the MiSTer)....They are close... too close.. Is the extra money worth it ? This is the question I need to find out..
And it’s the one question you need to answer for yourself lol. I can’t answer it for anyone
OMG, get real. The difference is not noticeable nor doesn’t matter. The mister is slow and will never do anything faster then old 16 bit games. You mister fans are a cult.
I don’t remember anyone sending me a robe
The audio and visuals are identical for me, I know you are noticing a slight difference in the audio but I really do not think that it is the real selling point of the MiSTer, what you should compare however, is the latency, yes how many frames does it take for the inputs to register, this is the real meat, this is the only ever reason why should someone consider the MiSTer over software emulation. especially for bullet-hell shooters and fighting games, it is a game changer an I hope you'd make a video about that
Especially when using a CRT, it's instantly noticeable when going from my MiSTer to my gaming rig and using software emulation, even BNES, which is just about the most accurate a low latency emulator there is, MiSTer feels like the real thing, 0ms perceptible latency for both input response and video/audio timings, software emulation is a little lower latency via a bloat free Linux OS, I think what might even it up a little, is a bare metal emulation OS, but even then it has to run over the UEFI system kernel (BIOS), legacy BIOS PC's actually have less latency and slightly better frame times, GPU's with ROM legacy BIOS's are also lower latency, if only there was a way to run something like a low latency version of RetroArch directly from the CPU/GPU/MEM/etc (bare-metal) like the MiSTer FPGA bare metal system, that might make things a little more even Steven.
Audio accuracy has always been the low point for the systems that use FM synthesis.. the sample based nature of SNES audio lends itself well to software emulation. This will continue to improve over time. Softsynths have reached near perfection for most FM synthesis methods and so it's only a matter of time for the advancements in the "VST" sphere to bleed over in to the adjacent sphere of game emulation and the inaccuracies will become imperceptible.
I love retroarch , its free , its amazing , its easy to play , bye bye
Lol outside of the bye bye you had a point
It has been proved that people automatically like louder music more, therefore you should volume up the music in software emulation a little to match the level of volume. Only then you can really tell if there is any difference.
Or get a good pair of Gaming headphones and it sounds beautiful 👍
All of these audio comparisons are best listened to via headphones for sure
I mean it's not only about "volume" the audio on the mister is clearly superior. If you add headphones to both, it won't change that fact.
Software emulation can be amazing when done right, Higan shows that very well.
On the flip side, achieving circle perfect emulation is a painful process and very hard to accomplish.
Personally I'd love to see such a thing as Higan for the MegaDrive and GameBoy but then again, as much as I am fan of such a high grade of emulation I noticed that it's rather desired than necessary for my personal taste.
Still, if I had the money and use case for it, I'd probably buy a MiSTer set myself.
The nice thing is in 2021 we have such an incredible breadth of options to play these games and they are all good
@@VideoGameEsotericahe there! How is it that the mister seems to explode in popularity in 2022 and now I don't hear much about it. Was there any important updates on that year?
Still seems popular to me
There is no comparison to original hardware in this. You are just saying which emulation you prefer.
Well produced video though.
It’s not about original hardware
Contrary to popular belief there's nothing inherent to FPGA that makes it more accurate than software emulation. Everything that FPGA can do so can software, albeit it may take a powerful computer do so, but it can be done. FPGA is not magic. Granted, some cores like the Neo Geo one are very accurate as it was derived from scans from delidded components. However you could write an emulator based on the same info and get the exact same results as an FPGA implementation. None of the differences cited on the video are due to mister being an FPGA. The differences are due to implementation details only.
The largest difference is the parallel execution of different chips on the FPGA vs the sequential emulation on software. With modern processors sequential isnt as big of an issue but it’s still eating a lot of processing power to align all the sequential operations into something cohesive
FPGA doesn't have to deal with an OS, drivers, LCD Monitors with lag, millions of different PC configurations. It just works, like real hardware.
The one huge benefit is your OS won’t crash constantly or try to update (looking at you Windows 10)
You could write a cycle accurate Neo Geo software emulator, but it would take much longer to get it done, according to emulator developers who have done both hardware based and software based cycle accurate emulators I've talked to. Some things are harder to do with an FPGA and some things are harder to do with software. They each have their ups and downs. However, to get the video and audio output to something like a CRT, or to get a small device that is portable and not over 1000 dollars that can run these systems fully accurate that way? An FPGA-based device is going to kick butt at that every time, for now.
I can’t even begin to fathom how the devs even write these things
Ever so slightly🤓
Off topic, sorry. I was going through Jotego's Twitter and saw that he acquired Raiden 2 back in May. I can't tell you how excited I am!
Nice. Jotego is killing it with his cores
I think the differene in colors is because of the different bits colors range. You can force it to origianl in the settings. Colors are very simple but the output on screen will always be different on all devices.
An emulation machine costs like 25€. I can accept some tiny difference with that little cost of playing nearly everything. Oh, and the music at 6:00 is a clear win for emulation. The stereo image (headphones) is so much better.
Guess you can't apply shaders in MiSTer? I appreciate they may not be for everyone, but I personally love using the CRT shaders in Retroarch, name Hyllian, Hyllian Glow and Royale. I think I'll give MiSTer around five years, by then it will be awesome!
MiSTer has shaders / filters as well :)
@@VideoGameEsoterica I will have to check it out then.
👍
Great video, very interesting to see a detailed comparison.
It’s funny, to my eyes the SOR dithering example looks better on the emulator, where the dither pattern looks perfectly repetitive, whereas on the mister it shows noticable lines of brighter pixels horizontally and darker pixels vertically, that I wouldn’t call preserved detail, since they are not caused by anything in the background. It looks unintentional to me.
But than again I can’t compare to the original, so maybe that’s how it actually looked, for better or worse…^^
In the end the best thing is we get two awesome options to enjoy games :)
I've been looking into the MiSTer and really this video kinda says to save my money and stick with emulation. You compared MiSTer to RetroArch but you didn't say which cores. There are several cores available for most systems like SNES which has the Beetle-mercury Accuracy which emulates more of the hardware vs. the software. Most people suggest to use Snes9x as it has been around forever but it is not the best. Even FinalBurn Alpha has multiple core variations some specifically for CPS systems and NeoGeo. Of course there is MAME which strives for accuracy but also strives for pain. CPS disc based games actually emulate loading from a disc in MAME which takes minutes even with fast-forward, all in the name of accuracy. FBA loads instantly. You also keep mentioning audio. Your system seems powerful enough for the video but audio, depending on what is included on the motherboard, audio can range from crap to almost ok. I've been playing on PC for close to 40 years (still not 50 yet) since sound was always handled by a separate sound card and I've always use a sound card since. I have a $450 motherboard and you'd think the audio would be nice but you'd be wrong. I use an external Soundblaster X4 connected USB-C to the PC and using Logitech Z625 speakers connected with optical. I got to get better headphones but my HyperX cloud II connected to the SB X4 sound pretty good. You can usually fine tune external audio and make many speakers sound better. Point is, external audio is way better audio than what any motherboard can produce. You eliminate any interference the PC produces especially the video card. FYI, motherboard is ASUS Dark Hero, 5800X3d, 3070 Ti.
And that’s fair. Everyone gets to make their choice as to what they want to use :)
Of course I checked out a few of your newer videos and I see you do list what cores and compare with BSNES core. I think you still need to look at your audio hardware. Of course in the real world, you'll never be going through the same audio hardware in the exact same way.
The thing about audio hardware is nobody will hear anything the same way. My capture setup, compression, the viewers speakers or headphones…1000 variables
For me the MiSTer 'feels' more authentic although I agree that the differences between FPGA hardware simulation and software emulation are negligible in most cases nowadays. For me two of the biggest wins for the MiSTer are the lack of input lag compared to software emulators and the ease of set up and updating - it's literally a once script does all - just add roms. I still have a Pi4 running a 750GB retro game image but I rarely use it since getting a MiSTer. Just waiting for the PS1 and Saturn cores to land now....
Looks like PS1 and Saturn will be soon?
It's not authentic. The colors on the Mister video in the left are wrong.
If someone were to get a MiSTer now, would it be easy to add PS1/Saturn later? That is one thing that makes me reluctant with these.
They are working on the cores. I’m sure it’ll come. Adding items is as easy as running an update script
3:13 Mister flickering all the way.
Cool, ive been saying all along that MiSTer is a bit snake oil, sure its the most accurate "simulation" but barely better than good emulation and certainly not some godly step up. Nice video.
Snake oil, to me, implies getting cheated or not being completely honest about something. MiSTer does exactly what it advertises: hardware emulation.
I think what you're trying to say is it isn't worth the price markup over software emulation.
While I do think MiSTer is better it's not like other awesome options aren't out there. For me the part about "throw MiSTer in my bag and biking to a friends house" is the biggest difference
Yes. MiSTer is legit awesome. IMO it's worth the hardware costs. But that DOESN'T mean other awesome options don't exist
@@TheMikeyb86 this is it Mike. FPGA game systems in general, I'm not against it, just dubious of their worth.
Mister shines on the same display tech the original hardware ran on, a CRT. There, it runs and looks far superior to Retroarch/Mame etc... and has the same lag as original hardware. Infact, running side-by-side of original hardware, on the same CRT, Mister also looks better than the original machine - especially if that machine was composite-only, or RF-only like an Atari 2600.
So unless you are really looking for the Differences you don't really notice the Difference in what you using to play the Games
For the most part no you really don’t
@@VideoGameEsoterica if the input lag isn’t a night-and-day experience on the mister, then that is a massive cash investment for very little benefit for a mister if you’ve already got software emulation running. It’s easily €350 for a mister if not more. For that money, there HAS to be a killer benefit. Plus because of the hype, old 15” Sony trinitron monitors now sell for €400.
I mean everyone determines lag differently. MiSTer has less lag than software in most instances but I personally cant feel much of a difference. You may feel a huge difference
@@VideoGameEsoterica 99% of games I can't really tell.
Only game I felt a Tiny Bit was the Megaman Games espically the X's ones on SNES
Fighting games is where I’ll notice
question, did you play around with sound chip settings on the genesis emulator for Retroarch? Genesis Plus GX should have different software options, maybe one of those is more to your liking?
I looked into them yes
@@VideoGameEsoterica out of curiosity do you know how the Mister handles the busy flag for the YM2612?
Also great video!
Mega Drive emulation tends to get sound effects wrong, such as the noise when Sonic runs past the finish sign (in the original Sonic The Hedgehog).
I’ll have to listen for that
Great video exactly what i was looking for and just confirmed what I thought that FPGA is for the purists. Who never had contact with the original hardware will hardly notice the difference between them.
Glad you enjoyed the vid
FPGA is overrated. Today's modern devices completely surpass the OG consoles with emulation. Why would I want to keep all the quirks and slowdowns from OG retro consoles? I will stick to my Pi 4 or Launch Box from a PC with its HUGE collection of pretty much everything under the sun with wide screen hacks, save states, cheats, net play and a beautiful GUI to boot. Modern devices offer emulation with relatively zero noticeable lag (when properly configured) even to the 5% or less that can actually detect said lag lol. But to each his own, I guess. Good Video though 👍
I mean nobody HAS to get a MisTer LOL
Mister has better contrast,aspect ratio, drawing,sound and input lag than software emulation, while for someone not purist maybe do not notice those differences, purist people notice these... In fact i did some real test with real hardware and then did the emulation way on the same tv crt and you can see the real hardware looks better, display better image,sound,etc Emulators only replicate via software and lacks hability to replicate video signals,chips and in comparaison game always look jaggier,pixelated than RH.
There are big differences ( some are more accurate and others less ) but most of casual people will not notice this.
Emulation is good but there is nothing like real hardware, fpga looks promising tho.
In all honestly I use a mix of all three and I def have a massive hardware collection so it’s not like I have to use FPGA or emulation if I don’t want to
Great video. Thank you for doing the hard work with this. I think what this proves (at least to me) is that comparing software and FPGA emulation is almost splitting hairs. For most it will come down to cost and convenience. What I would really love to see is a comparison between a Raspberry PI 4 running Retropie and the MiSTer. That is how many of us are playing these games.
Very splitting hairs. But the great thing is how many options there are :)
Pi vs MiSTer you say? I do have a Pi 4 sitting right next to me as I type this....(this is the number 1 request I get. Soon!)
And even then Retro Pie is running on junk hardware, for way too much money with tough as hell usability SSH-ing into a Linux distro all the time. Thank you. I'll grab a 25€ MacMini and load Retro Arch on it without all the Emulationstation/Retropie bloat and have a much easier time emulating for less money.
Is just me but its like the same for me 🤣 both are great options for me Fpga is too expensive....
I’m just glad everyone has options
Yeah. And also, Mister has many cores but nothing close to the sheer number of games that you can emulate via softwares like MAME.
This is true
Thank you for the video! Any chance of testing latency?
In the future yes :) just need to borrow a tester
basically if you have the $ get a mister, if you don't, Retroarch is still pretty good and you can also try different cores.
Yep :)
The best way to describe an FPGA is that it is not an emulator - it's a simulator.
It’s like Total Recall. Was Quaid actually doing what he did or was just just in Recall (a simulation lol)
The funny thing is originally an emulator was done in hardware and a simulator in software.
I do think it’s kind of interesting there is no term that anyone can quite settle on for what to call FPGA cores. Simulation? Replication? Emulation? It’s not really set in stone
@@VideoGameEsoterica When I try to explain it to someone I usually end up saying that it becomes the machine. I guess we do need to find a new term for it.
It’s like the Terminator. The T-2000...shapeshifter
Hardware emulation is kind pointless, trying to mimic the original hardware at physical level, wich is impossible, it's a middle road solution between software emulation/clone systems and og hardware
I mean if you have silicon scans it really isn’t impossible at all
I do like seeing the comparisons, but looking into this topic for several years, I'm not sold on FPGA replacing software emulation so far. Maybe for some specialty project where a specific title works better on FPGA. I also believe as many have said, some will be better in software emulation. FPGA or software, it's still reverse engineering what someone else created. There is plenty of room for error on either, and the final results are only as good as the people making these. One such problem pointed out to me be a former MiSTer that switched back to software emulation (or the unit before the MiSTer) was that C-64 SID chip was not emulated correctly, but was in software emulation. I'm sure it's resolved now, but just one example of "it's only as good as the people working on it". MiSTer is not running the original hardware. It is still very open to glitches just like software. It's a reproduction, no matter what.
I've been very satisfied with software emulation for 25 years. It is improved frequently. There are a lot more people working on software emulation, a lot more people using it, easier and more frequent updates. It's free, and older PC's that can run it fairly well are also often free.
I've built 4 MAME machines so far, all using CRT's. A color and b&w VectorMAME even. In the works I have a 1990s driving cockpit with a 25" CRT, cocktail & a GalagaMAME cabinet. I also collect dedicated classics, mostly from Atari. I still feel software is the most flexible option & the easiest best supported option not only to emulate the games, but to get support on various controls of which I run many different types as my machines have modular controls and work with a variety of changing control panels.
The other thing is I mainly play games and run software from the 1980s. Not the 1990s fighting games your playing. Maybe those aren't as well emulated in software? Possible, but not the kind of games I play. I'm not seeing delays in my controls or my monitors like I hear some claim. When I do experience slow downs on 1980s games, 99% of the time they are in the originals as I frequently visit the largest retro arcades (like Funspot) and collectors, so I get to play something like 1000 classic machines on a fairly regular basis comparing them. Some games, such as Sega's Space Fury vector, experiences massive CPU slow down on the original hardware (verified on two dedicated machines). This glitch is absent on my color VectorMAME machine. Thank you MAME developers, I'll take that improvement. The slow down is so noticeable on the original hardware, it greatly affects my game play.
I get the biggest laugh out of the many people that praise FPGA technology for retro games, then they play them with LCD monitors, which aren't even remotely close to being authentic. It's clearly impossible to get even close with present displays.
What I have yet to see, are many good examples of MiSTer running games I actually enjoy better. I'm sure they are out there, and I'm also sure, or the reverse.
The nice thing is there are options for all groups. The FPGA people, the software emulator people and the original hardware people. It’s never been a better time to be a gamer to be entirely honest :)
@@VideoGameEsoterica In terms of playing these games via software or hardware emulation, totally agree. Though buying the specialty CRT arcade monitors that have a classic 80s RGB TV-tube look (as opposed to common CRT VGA computer monitor) are getting very hard to find or repair in these times. 15 years ago they were much easier to obtain, and are an essential part of my emulation machines.
Ugh I am looking for a smaller medium res monitor and I am coming up empty
@@VideoGameEsoterica They are not easy to come by in 19" or smaller. They can be found in 25" sizes and up.
I have one in my Atari Super Sprint and had one in my Atari APB (which I traded). Some cabinets, like Super Sprint, can be fitted with some 25" monitors instead.
Yeah last one I found that was local was a 29” and I just didn’t have the space. I wish medium res existed in a 20-21” commonly
FPGA just isn’t good enough to justify the cost difference.
Everyone gets to decide its value. If it’s not worth it for you I totally get that
the ultimate test is mode7 emulation on the snes, the software version of this looks like horse shit.... I know it didn't look that bad in the old days. Super Mario kart is a good example of this.
This is true
Finalburn alpha got discontinued, the finalburn neo improved the qsound audio emulation
I’ll be comparing them this fall :)
@3:02 blacks are crushed in Mister.
It looks closer (visually and audio-wise) than a lot of people make out... But input lag is where mister is meant to be the clear winner? Shame there was no mention of this at all in the video. I know you don't have a latency tester, but did it "feel" different controlling the emulator vs the mister?
Functionally no I feel no difference in lag. But I am not super susceptible to the situation. Had I had issues pulling off particular moves in software based emulation I would have noted it
I'd be hyped for a video explaning the science between the fpga technology :)
You are the ONLY one lol. No other comments were interested in a primer video on FPGA
@@VideoGameEsoterica probably most of us here are already familiar with it. I wouldn’t mind a video on it though, and it might bring some more folks into the mister which wouldn’t be a bad thing.
I’ll consider it. Sometimes those niche videos fall flat stat wise too
I'd gladly watch this.
Noted!
Honestly, watching the video through my phone I must take your word for it because I´d be hard-pressed to notice any difference! As you say, I´m sure both options are good, maybe with a slight edge for the FPGA.
You would have to look very Closely and know what you looking for to see any Changes Really.
Plays Quite Fine Really
And that’s my ultimate point...the differences are very minimal and it’s awesome we have so many great choices
Yes it’s a real pixel peeping thing
What's amusing about this video is that the colors on the left are obviously wrong. It's way too saturated. Those aren't accurate colors. All the RGB colors in the palettes Capcom chose have values that are divisible by 8. I've studied the palettes of CPS1 games and can definitively say that the colors in Mister here are wrong.
You can just see how the Mister feed on the left is far too saturated. Haggar looks radioactive.
@@bobsaget9182 as someone who owns CPS boards I can assure you that the mister colours are completely accurate
I'm old, and work, so no MisTer for me, I NEED save states.
Haha fair enough
It bothers me how the guy's strap on his suspenders just switches sides any time he changes direction.
And I was today years old when I just noticed this Lolol. Good observation
If you play with the settings in retroarch you can mess with the screen resolutions and sync to get rid of stuttering you show ... nice to see comparisons, both soft and hardware are great forms of emulation.... if set up properly ✌️
More comparisons will come this fall
Software Emulation got so great its hard to tell now
Very true
I also noticed that mister tended to be brighter than software.
Some of that can come down to capture card vs OBS for software emulation as well
I've never noticed any of the supposed 'input lag' that people complain about with software emulation. Maybe you have to be a pro gamer or speed runner to notice the difference?
In some genres it’s not really an issue. In bullet hell shmups / 2d fighting games it’s more noticeable
And remember your brain is used to deal with lag. How do you think you could drive a car?... Lag all the way.
It does answer the question of 'which is better', but I'm quite glad that it also answers the main question on my mind which is "how much better?"
I'd love to get a MiSTer, but I doubt I could justify the cost of one for extremely slight improvements. Many of these improvements only seem noticeable to hardware experts and also are only apparent in direct comparisons. I understand that latency is improved due to its parallel / non-sequential nature, but the latency I get via my 31 KHz VGA is good enough for me anyway.
However, one major advantage is the ease of hooking it up to a 15KHz CRT (provided you get the IO board), with which I've really struggled (with no success) on my software emu devices.
Maybe watch next Thursday’s video. May be a big MiSTer related giveaway going on...just saying ;)
@@VideoGameEsoterica Wow! You've got yourself a new subscriber :)
Haha thanks. Just crossed 10K too
@retroFuture - also I have to add that the video output on HDTV's has exceeded my expectations in general. For some reason I can only get it to look that smooth with retroarch on windows 10 if I hook it up to a VRR computer monitor, but a regular big screen TV always has some kind of jitter. I've talked with people who know more about retroarch to try and fix it in the past over and over, but it can't get resolved. I like the MiSTer since it kinda got rid of that problem I was having.
this guy is just mad he wasted 500 on the mister and wants to point out any single micro shit he notices or imagines to justify his purchase that will get obsolete. software emulation evolves with a simple digital update installation. with mister you are stuck to hardware until the developer releases a v2 v3 v4 v5 and you wasted your money in something that its not even collectable. as time pases this device will be seen as a electronic project frankenstein . i dont see these stuff get sold by houndreds of dollars in a super potato in tokyo. never. ever
Lol I’m this guy. And you realize MiSTer cores update regularly right? Same as software emulation.
I collect original hardware, FPGA boards, frequently use software emulation, etc etc.
So maybe slow your roll 🤣
Good quality Sega MD/GEN audio emulation seems to be very rare and still I've not come across software emulation that can match the real thing, FPGA is much closer to real FM synth audio, with a good DAC and AMP MiSTer sounds incredible with SMD/SNES/PCE/etc, not even Nuked SMD software emulation gets close to FPGA or the real thing for me, though it's nice to have Nuked and filtered FM emulation on a handheld gaming PC as an option, at least untill we get a portable MiSTer FPGA handheld, that will be sweet for OPL2/3/FM synth on the go, will even be able to listen to FM synth and MIDI tunes on the go, that said not even FPGA can match real MIDI audio quality tbh, not yet anyhoo, perhaps someone will develope perfect MIDI FPGA replication someday.
The thing is there were so many revisions that all sound slightly different…it’s hard to say what is even “right”
@@VideoGameEsoterica Well it's just about getting full and rich, detailed FM audio without distortion, interference or timining issues, it's pretty simple, for me the OG Mega Drive 1 stereo model is the reference for that console, with a good stereo audio setup it sounds incredible, same goes for OPL2/3 on Yamaha chips, thats the standard for good FM synth, I'm sure FPGA can replicate these audio chips pretty well if done right. Admitedly MIDI is a trickier, as you say there are so many standards and types, but FPGA can handle that with onboard RAM for loading different MIDI Sounfonts, FPGA could be an amazing swiss army knife solution for audio eventually, a good DAC& is still always important.
Also FPGA can be used for legacy video standards one day too, for example a high-quality FPGA 400mhz RAMDAC for upto 2048x1556 85hz analogue, which is now missing from modern GPU cards since the GTX 1080 gen cards, the FPGA would be able to do 15/24/31khz and CGA/EGA/VGA/etc, would be so usefull to have on a modern GPU for legacy use, for both video and audio, I guess it could be just a sperate PCIe card, but on a GPU makes sense to me, it can share VRAM, the framebuffer, video outputs that can be used with adapters, i.e for VGA or DVI-A etc, or the FPGA could be linked to a USB-C output for multiple video&audio I/O, depending on what you want to use it for, would be useful for capture purposes too.
Yes getting down scaled signals out of a modern PC is an exercise in “yeah this is pointless. I give up”. I’d love to be able to go from my 3090 to my PVM via emulation easily without introducing lag but there is no good solution
I love my MISTer. I play it way more than my PS5.
Me too. Because I can’t find a PS5! Bigfoot levels of rare
Is same
Neo Geo games liked strobing lights, huh?
Not sure what you are referencing?
I think Final Burn is more about getting games to run on underpowered hardware than accuracy. Other cores within Retroarch, such as MAME, are probably more accurate. The dithered light beam in SoR2 is just a scaling issue which could be adjusted however you like in Retroarch. The sound was less accurate but again a different core might give better results. But it's good that the MiSTEer bypasses all this fiddling with settings.
Yes a lot of what I compare is "out of the box", as the people who ask me these questions aren't the ones diving deep into ever granular setting to try to get 1% "more' out of the possibilities.
Here in Brazil it costs more than a PS5, so..
Ouch
The true test is if it can perfectly run 3rd strike.
Well right now CPS 3 isn’t on MiSTer yet so time will tell
Real HW > FPGA > SW emu >>> typical SW emu. It is important to note that people DO NOT get near smooth scrolling on software emulation usually. My "60Hz" and game's "60Hz" are different usually and these things do not match at all. It takes either zero effort in case VRR (G-Sync/FreeSync, HDMI 2.1) are available and just work with used emulator or we get in to matching refresh rate hell. Emulators on the other hand typically do not allow syncing for monitor refresh rate. Retroarch requires a lot of effort to make it work good on fixed refresh displays and especially on 15KHz CRTs on RaspberryPi. It is not as plug & play if not having stuttering is important. MISTer should be plug&play. Will find out soon, hopefully. With modern low lag VRR displays SW emulation can work great though and the only real issues are how accurate emulation is and how low lag we can get. There is no good reason why lower than native input lag can be achieved with such setup eg when processing of whole frame is eg 1ms and gamepad input for it happens for it and then pushing it to display takes not 16.6ms but eg 8.3ms. In this example at least bottom of the screen will be faster on emulation. We are not there yet though, a lot of things must happen right for sw emulation to work right and on fixed refresh display it typically has at least one frame of input lag... and usually either lost or repeated frames and "floating" input lag.
mame on pc is even better than the mister
I mean MAME certainly has more games running currently for sure but it’s had one hell of a head start too
Use cycle accurate emulators instead of a RetroArch and you won't see a difference.
Mister is *simulation,* _not_ emulation.
Just word choice. Everyone understands one
I made the same test yesterday with Final Fight running on the Mister and latest MAME. Both connected to the same screen (32:1 that can take 2 inputs at the same time) and putting the Mister audio through the PC to be able to seamlessly change from the mister to MAME. Both the video and the audio are 99% indistinguishable.
Remember that MAME is built for accuracy and Final Burn Alpha sometimes uses hacks to improve performance.
There is also a known issue in the NeoGeo core where the audio goes out of tune sometimes (very noticeable in Pulstar)
Pulstar is always what I use to compare audio as a) it's known to have issues and b) I've played the game so many much on AES that it's imprinted in my brain
@@VideoGameEsoterica Yeah it's also one of my to-go games for comparisons, the sound issue is not limited to Pulstar though, it's just very obvious during the intro. It happens in a lot of NG games in the Mister (maybe all?)
I had a RGB bypassed NeoGeo with a NeoSD Pro till not so long ago, used to play a lot in a Sony CRT TV. It's extremely difficult for me to tell the Mister apart from the original hardware
@@VideoGameEsoterica Pulstar music tests the ADPCM, which has issues in Final Burn, but it's good to test older Neo games too to compare the FM sound.
MiSTer audio has always been problematic on emulation ever since the beginning. The intro jingle was the worst offender for awhile
I'll look into that
Great video. I already run a micro PC for emulation and I'm not an audiophile, so I think I'll skip on mister for now. I really appreciate the breakdown!
Glad you enjoyed it. Yeah MiSTer def won’t be for everyone
Does it come with the fan?
the DE10 Nano does not come with a fan
ngl i see no difference
That’s how good both options are
Name of the game on 8:35 ?
Super Bonk 2 on PC engine
Have you got FBA audio settings set to output at 48khz? I think default is 44 which can make a big difference
It’s been a minute since I captured this so I’d have to look at the details in Resolve
I forgot what exactly old games looked like but I always use crt,with matching refresh rates.
CRT does make a difference
Broken Wings....(?) First time watching any video from this channel....
Haha yep
Has anyone done a comparison of mister to a raspberry pi 4? Obviously there are advantages of using the mister, but how good is the pi 4 in comparison?
Shhh don’t spoil future videos ;) (soon. I have a Pi 4 on my studio desk)
In Yoshi's Island you got compare stage 7. Software can not emulate correct sound and graphic even super nes mini but mister does perfect match due to original.
If I can find a save file sure. It would take me awhile to play to stage 7
“Extremely similar”. Correct … when the Mister emulate ps2 and ps3, I ll give up Retroarch and software emulation
Haha you’ll be waiting an eternity
@@VideoGameEsoterica exactly, and when it comes software emulation will be on ps5 already …
Sorry not sure what you mean
@@VideoGameEsoterica current regular emulation is doing ps3, Switch, 3DS comfortably. When the Mister comes to this point (if it ever happen), regular emulation will be doing ps5, X One S, etc. this is why the tiny gain we have with the Mister won’t never match software emulation, in my opinion
It’s really not designed to match what software emulation can do platform wise
@9:50 This can be solved for software emulation via Raspberry Pi.
I’ll have to look at the time code at some point. Not sure what this refers to
Both perform the same to me.
No differences. All are emulation at the end of the day
But they are emulated in completely different manners
It's a shame it's so expensive. I'm on the fence to buy one for months now... Also, as far as I know, there isn't much support for cheating in games. Old arcade games are engineered to make you lose and most of us have lost the skills to beat the old games again.
Some cores do have cheats. More console than arcade but they do exist
Haha yes it’s a deal compared to real
Don't know, really hard to notice any difference with emulation, and Retroarch it's so rich feature that it's hard to pass. Dithering it's not working in any, a filter and lowering the resolution of the HDTV will solve that.
Yea the nice thing is there are options for people to choose from
You should compare Samurai Showdow 4 on Software emulation X Mist 😞
The game Health bars on software emulation are glitch because the wrong cycle
Maybe in the future :)
@@VideoGameEsoterica 07:29 I noticed that interpolation of the two walls moving to the left is more smooth in the FPGA
I’ll have to take a peek and see
ANother Great video, keep 'em coming. I have my de10, gotta get the rest of the parts over time... then I gotta learn how to add cores and games lol.
if you need MiSTer parts maybe check back next thursday ;)
Fortunately MiSTer is really easy, image the card with the base image, download the "update all" script and copy it to the card. Put the card in, boot it up, and run the script. Done. The only thing left is to copy over roms for consoles, the script grabs everything you need for arcade games.
Yes it’s getting very streamlined lately
Wtf with that creepy intro 😳
It’s an Easter egg. You need to solve it (seriously)
@@VideoGameEsoterica ooh Broken Wings!! You really scared me man, I have a problem with songs played backwards since childhood 😂 your work in this channel is awesome. Greetings from México 👍
Haha nothing scary here backwards
So there is no significant difference between software emulation and mister? That is good to know. You just saved me a bundle!
Lol was that what I said? There is a place for everything. But I’ll have videos comparing individual cores to individual emulators coming soon
Ever so sligthly
sorry not sure what you mean?
@@VideoGameEsoterica you repeated it ever so often.
Great video anyway!
Excellent video. Subscribed! Would love to see you follow it up with some input lag comparisons, perhaps using a Time Sleuth.
I'll probably get a MiSTer once fully-working 32, 64, and 128-bit console cores are developed (those are the consoles where software emulation still leave a lot to be desired, IMO). For now, I am totally satisfied using Mednafen for most stuff, Fusion for Sega CD, and MAME.
all good options too. Software emulation is still great. If I can find a Time Sleuth to borrow i'll keep it in mind!
32-bit is most likely the limit for the current board so you'll probably be waiting quite awhile.
The way time moves ten years from now will be sooner than we know it (scary)
The shimmering/jerking scrolling on the MiSTer is terrible on both Pulstar and Street of Rage (check the garbage bin), almost unplayable ... Are you using integer scaling? On the RetroArch the scrolling is super smooth like real hardware.
The MiSTer can sometimes be harder to get a clean capture from than just doing a window capture with OBS or other streaming/capture software. It also depends on if what his settings are, if they are the default with 720p resolution and vsync to screen, then the 1080p video you are seeing is certainly scaled to a different size and that part of it shouldn't be considered analytical (the pixels, scaling, etc...) in this video, you should probably look for more technical reviews that attempt to show you the direct output, and to avoid shimmering you would actually have to match your resolution to the video's resolution (or a number that is divisible whole of the source resolution of the video) for the purposes of integer scaling too. Finally, youtube can convert the video and display it all wrong, so it's never going to be 1:1 what the user sees in terms of video capture being sent to youtube.
Yes I think what people don't realize is this requires an extra two steps. 1) it goes through DaVinci Resolve and even if I resize via constraints when I put two video tracks next to each other...it's still resized and 2) RUclips compression
@@VideoGameEsoterica I understand what it takes... but, the exact purpose of the video is to compare two "systems", and one is not faithfully represented as you are saying, so it may need a small message saying that the shimmering is a byproduct of the capture device and video compression. By the way, I really love your videos, specially the "Unported" serie!!!
I think i mentioned in the video things such as capture devices or exporting can alter things slightly? Glad you like Unported!
I enjoy these types of comparisons but it's been so long since there were significant problems with this era of emulation that it feels like we're in the weeds. I think to come up with something concrete we'd need to set up double blind tests with directly captured references included. Easier said than done, I know, but we're down to saturation levels and volume differences, which happen easily with real hardware. The visual junk on Neo Geo is an objective metric. That's definitely a plus for MiSTer, assuming said junk actually appears on the original hardware in the exact same fashion.
The junk does appear on an AES. But yes the entire takeaway is there are tons of awesome options out there now
Crt emudriver sur une tv crt devrait améliorer les choses nespa?
My GPU doesn’t support it
@@VideoGameEsotericaget a 5$ amd radeon
@@VideoGameEsotericaca pourrait bien faire une bonne video dessus
Maybe one day
@@VideoGameEsoterica ok monsieur. On va attendre
I can see Mister is slightly better... but costs like 4-5x times what a raspberry pi does... Is it the time to change for an FPGA? I'm confused, I know it's the future of emulation, but maybe it still requires some more time.
Get in on the ground floor. It’s fun to watch the updates and see it progress :) but that’s just me
@@VideoGameEsoterica I just have ordered one 4min ago ;-)
Enjoy it when it arrives :) and if you need help swing by my discord. Links in the description of all my videos
Ooooh boy this iss smooth. Now I need a new decoder for my sticks for zero delay 😎
Definitely
Theme plays and I'm thinking about forgetting how to fly and handing back those broken wings.
that song will permanently be stuck in my head for life now
You should consider upgrading your sound card if it always sounds worse. I'd like to see MAME compared against FinalBurn Neo with the versions and sync settings disclosed. I hope you cover the 3D DOS and Win95 games where MiSTer isn't powerful enough.
Not sure what I’d cover with DOS? I did a series on DOS games though
@@VideoGameEsoterica Cool I didn't know. For DOS you could look up Glide API games that originated with the famous Voodoo graphics card. I'd think Battle Arena Toshinden, Descent 2 and Grand Theft Auto to be notable.
MAME (the latest version) would have been the most accurate software emulator to compare arcade games against. Why the heck did you use an old crufty emulator like Final Burn Alpha? Also, two of the biggest advantages of FPGA are low input latency and no frame skipping, but you didn't even mention either.
Because I’ll have a MAME comparison in the future. People requested this
while i like the pointer stick i think its overused. you should try some funny replacements though like a wand or a yard stick and see if anyone notices lol.
Lol have you not seen the cat tail pen I’ve been using lately?
@@VideoGameEsoterica lol i think i missed that one XD
Haha well keep a keen eye on the recent videos. It’s changed. It will change again. Pointer intrigue!
Dude.
I HEARD CPS1 games (Final Fight) in action in the wild. Yes, the ADPCM is SUPPOSED to sound tinny (unfiltered).
It doesn’t sound that tinny on my OG pcb
@@VideoGameEsoterica One of the weirdest things about that OKI chip is it honestly sounds different depending on the developer.
Midway's use of it on MK1 and NBA Jam have it filtered, while I clearly recall Capcom's CPS1 games leave it unfiltered. My guess is you got a slightly modded board? (grain of salt)
Not modded. But so many things could affect it including the type of supergun I use
What's amusing about this video is that the colors on the left are obviously wrong. It's way too saturated. Those aren't accurate colors. All the RGB colors in the palettes Capcom chose have values that are divisible by 8. I've studied the palettes of CPS1 games and can definitively say that the colors in Mister here are wrong.
You can just see how the Mister feed on the left is far too saturated. Haggar looks radioactive.
Good video, I'm subbing. I feel that you could slow your talking a little though.
That is me talking slow lol...I try my best!
@@VideoGameEsoterica OK, maybe I will try the 0.75x playback option :)
Good video either way.
haha thanks...and yeah I am just a faster talker
Hello , Super comparative, the emulation will remain the most accessible without calling into question the Fpga but which is more reserved for enthusiasts who seek an experience close to the origin.
I have a question what the title of your intro music is. Thank you
Yes software is still the most accessible it’s free and just a few download clicks away
What's amusing about this video is that the colors on the left are obviously wrong. It's way too saturated. Those aren't accurate colors. All the RGB colors in the palettes Capcom chose have values that are divisible by 8. I've studied the palettes of CPS1 games and can definitively say that the colors in Mister here are wrong.
You can just see how the Mister feed on the left is far too saturated. Haggar looks radioactive.
The mister audio is louder in he video which will give the perception of better. balance both audio to the same level would be a better comparison, also it would be great if you had a 3rd comparison showing original hardware, Great video! just some suggestions!
I have comparisons against MiSTer and original hardware already uploaded so I didn’t include the original hardware here
Agreed, volume normalization is important and is done with listening tests because of this well-known psychoacoustic bias.
Psychoacoustic bias sounds like using sound to explode peoples heads
@@VideoGameEsoterica Now that you mention it, "PSYCOACOUSTIC BIAS CANNON" sounds like something a Capcom fighter would shout while doing his special.
Haha I can’t disagree
Which cores did you use and what settings?
I can’t remember now. Isnt it in the video?
@@VideoGameEsoterica At 7:24 you say you'll list them down below but there's no list?
That’s my bad. I make them then sometimes don’t upload for a few weeks so I forget what I said. I’ll check the timeline files and add it in a few days
@@VideoGameEsoterica Cool