Glad I watched this. I had thought the extra velocity of the civil defense, 2200 fps+, made it good self defense ammo. Apparently that is BS. I appreciate all the insight!
Hell yeah, I havent even listened to this one yet. However Modcast 125 is still among one of the many a relisten to often. I've been a long time reader of DocGKR and of course Dr Fackler and IWBA stuff for years
@PrimaryAndSecondary But I have yet to see any statistically significant study on them. I have seen some impressive wound channels from slow rifle calibers using them from some hunters. But, that is of course not conclusive. Not conclusive, but also doesn’t disprove any possible benefit in tearing tissue. And as Fackler discovered, tissue tears reduce the elastic limit of the tissue. In other words, I don’t believe all the claims made by Lehigh, but I also can’t discount it until I see a study that proves it false. Simple scientific process there. What I can say is that the Lehigh XD bullets are extremely repeatable in reaching optimum depth in gel testing and are much more barrier blind than any JHP. After having good shot placement, penetration is the number 2 measure of performance for pistol bullets, and Lehigh XDs do well in that regardless of any medium in front of the threat. But if you know of legitimate studies on bullets like the LeHighs, I’m all ears.
Most ammo companies publish their barrier tests for the FBI protocol, if you look for them. From what i have seen, most of the bullets that fail an aspect of the FBI testing have problems with the automotive windshield test. For home defense, that is generally a non-issue, which opens up a number of viable rounds.
Amazes me that certain people on certain self important forums banned DocGKR because he wouldn't toe the ownership line...and were cowardly enough to do it under the generic "admin" account instead of their own name
So, you got Federal HST, Speer Gold, Hornady Critical Duty, after the big three, are there any less popular (but still commonly known) or foreign brands sitting on sporting goods shelves that are just as effective & reputable but also less expensive?
So, since no one has responded yet, what those big three offer is really the quality control aspect that comes with the big government and state agency contracts. I'm sure there are other companies loading similar velocity and pressure, maybe even the same bullets as the big three. But without the quality control standards set within those larger contracts it would be difficult to say if they are just as effective or reputable. Quality control is the key, and the cheaper options don't publish their testing if they are doing it at all. I hope that helps a little even though I didn't answer your question.
Thank-you for the great information. Curious, the comments about the army selection process for the M17. Are you able and/or willing to mention the pistol that performed so well and the ammunition?
At 2:10:20 Doc talks bout shotguns and advises you can’t recommend the 870 right now for duty use right now…. I know a Mossberg Rep has been on P&S in the recent past and I don’t have any major concerns with their products (I do use them). However, RemArms the new owners of Remington firearms assets is currently manufacturing the 870 Police Magnum. Comparing several new “RA” serialized products to the late pre-bankruptcy firearms, as well as legacy police magnums, there’s no doubt they’re being made well currently, if not better than what most LE agencies might have in stores. Any chance of having an RemArms rep on P&S to talk about Remingtons current state of LE manufacture?
@RedLeafRFO I would love to have an opportunity to talk to them on one of these. Several of us have seen first hand declines and rises of major companies.
@@PrimaryAndSecondary semantics. The end result is that there are secondary effects caused by a bullet traveling through live tissue outside of the direct bullet wound channel. If i shoot a deer with my 300 wm and land a very high shoulder shot, i know that the spi e is going to be snapped as well. And i may be misunderstanding here but Dr is stating that this is caused by actual tissue expanding so fast that it snaps the spine where as the hydrostatic shock crowd are saying it's caused by a pressure wave through the tissue?
DocGKR was willing to hook me up a decade or so ago by borrowing an precision upper receiver from him for a class. With us only knowing each other on Lightfighter at the time, I found this incredibly generous of him to allow me the opportunity to borrow the item. Luckily logistics worked out and I was able to take my duty rifle, but still... it speaks highly of the caliber of folks I had met on LF and P&S later.
I noticed the topic harped on here is how bad the internet is as a source of quality information on the topic. That being the case, can you refer me to some quality reading like some of the research of Dr. Martin Fackler or Gary Roberts? Thanks
Cool episode plus an informative and humbling live chat...rifle duty ammo and / or pistol duty sights and red dots would be a cool episode ... Roberts goes into some of the higher caliber effects on tissue in this episode too. Many mini clips should be coming from this.
I’ve long been on board with the idea that caliber arguments for defense are pointless, that the best option is a well designed JHP 9mm from Hornady, Federal, Winchester, or Speer that’s reliable in your personal pistol. My question is - does the same extend to hunting? Why do states require/individuals recommend a minimum power cartridge like 10mm, .357/.44 Mag, or even greater if the wounding characteristics don’t change depending on caliber/cartridge?
@PrimaryAndSecondary I welcome his knowledge, I don't expect things to be sugar coated. His presentation reminded me of Jeff Cooper, you respect the knowledge and the work, but the delivery is off-putting, no one wants to talked down to, especially when they agree with the presenter.
Im so stoked to have found this. The knowledge being shared is priceless! Thank all of y'all!
Glad I watched this. I had thought the extra velocity of the civil defense, 2200 fps+, made it good self defense ammo. Apparently that is BS. I appreciate all the insight!
The legend DocGKR!!!
Hell yeah, I havent even listened to this one yet. However Modcast 125 is still among one of the many a relisten to often. I've been a long time reader of DocGKR and of course Dr Fackler and IWBA stuff for years
“Fluted solids.” The latest flavor of the day?
They have been done before and are still not out performing proven jhp despite claims.
@PrimaryAndSecondary But I have yet to see any statistically significant study on them. I have seen some impressive wound channels from slow rifle calibers using them from some hunters. But, that is of course not conclusive.
Not conclusive, but also doesn’t disprove any possible benefit in tearing tissue. And as Fackler discovered, tissue tears reduce the elastic limit of the tissue.
In other words, I don’t believe all the claims made by Lehigh, but I also can’t discount it until I see a study that proves it false. Simple scientific process there.
What I can say is that the Lehigh XD bullets are extremely repeatable in reaching optimum depth in gel testing and are much more barrier blind than any JHP. After having good shot placement, penetration is the number 2 measure of performance for pistol bullets, and Lehigh XDs do well in that regardless of any medium in front of the threat.
But if you know of legitimate studies on bullets like the LeHighs, I’m all ears.
Most ammo companies publish their barrier tests for the FBI protocol, if you look for them. From what i have seen, most of the bullets that fail an aspect of the FBI testing have problems with the automotive windshield test. For home defense, that is generally a non-issue, which opens up a number of viable rounds.
Amazes me that certain people on certain self important forums banned DocGKR because he wouldn't toe the ownership line...and were cowardly enough to do it under the generic "admin" account instead of their own name
So, you got Federal HST, Speer Gold, Hornady Critical Duty, after the big three, are there any less popular (but still commonly known) or foreign brands sitting on sporting goods shelves that are just as effective & reputable but also less expensive?
So, since no one has responded yet, what those big three offer is really the quality control aspect that comes with the big government and state agency contracts. I'm sure there are other companies loading similar velocity and pressure, maybe even the same bullets as the big three. But without the quality control standards set within those larger contracts it would be difficult to say if they are just as effective or reputable. Quality control is the key, and the cheaper options don't publish their testing if they are doing it at all. I hope that helps a little even though I didn't answer your question.
Winchester Ranger SXTs are pretty good. They're essentially just rebranded black talons AFAIK. Cost around the same as HSTs as well
Thank-you for the great information. Curious, the comments about the army selection process for the M17. Are you able and/or willing to mention the pistol that performed so well and the ammunition?
Great topics.
Who had the "absolutely spectacular" ammo for the XM17 trials (1:36:10)?
At 2:10:20 Doc talks bout shotguns and advises you can’t recommend the 870 right now for duty use right now…. I know a Mossberg Rep has been on P&S in the recent past and I don’t have any major concerns with their products (I do use them). However, RemArms the new owners of Remington firearms assets is currently manufacturing the 870 Police Magnum. Comparing several new “RA” serialized products to the late pre-bankruptcy firearms, as well as legacy police magnums, there’s no doubt they’re being made well currently, if not better than what most LE agencies might have in stores. Any chance of having an RemArms rep on P&S to talk about Remingtons current state of LE manufacture?
@RedLeafRFO I would love to have an opportunity to talk to them on one of these. Several of us have seen first hand declines and rises of major companies.
Stretch vs temp cavity vs hydrostatic shock seems to be arguing over vocabulary. Its 3 different terms for the same effect.
@MrCashewkitty it isn't the same thing but I'm also going to listen to the known variable here
@@PrimaryAndSecondary semantics. The end result is that there are secondary effects caused by a bullet traveling through live tissue outside of the direct bullet wound channel. If i shoot a deer with my 300 wm and land a very high shoulder shot, i know that the spi e is going to be snapped as well. And i may be misunderstanding here but Dr is stating that this is caused by actual tissue expanding so fast that it snaps the spine where as the hydrostatic shock crowd are saying it's caused by a pressure wave through the tissue?
Outstanding broadcast. Great to see Doc Roberts again!
Love when Gary Roberts is on, getting the info straight from the horse's mouth as they say.
DocGKR was willing to hook me up a decade or so ago by borrowing an precision upper receiver from him for a class. With us only knowing each other on Lightfighter at the time, I found this incredibly generous of him to allow me the opportunity to borrow the item. Luckily logistics worked out and I was able to take my duty rifle, but still... it speaks highly of the caliber of folks I had met on LF and P&S later.
I love my Dangerous Dentist Brethren!!!
Awesome panel and discussion
Would love to have heard factual opinions on russian 5.45!!!!
I noticed the topic harped on here is how bad the internet is as a source of quality information on the topic. That being the case, can you refer me to some quality reading like some of the research of Dr. Martin Fackler or Gary Roberts? Thanks
Gunshot Wounds by Vincent Di Maio. It’s a textbook written by one of the most experienced trauma surgeons in the last 50 years.
Matt and company, yet another good and solid info packed episode!
+][+
Cool episode plus an informative and humbling live chat...rifle duty ammo and / or pistol duty sights and red dots would be a cool episode ... Roberts goes into some of the higher caliber effects on tissue in this episode too. Many mini clips should be coming from this.
Doc mentioned 8-points of Life(?) for selection criteria, but only got to 5 that I counted. Is there a complete list for reposting purposes?
115mm Speer Lawman
37:00 Glaser
Are you carrying arround a pocket artillery piece?
I’ve long been on board with the idea that caliber arguments for defense are pointless, that the best option is a well designed JHP 9mm from Hornady, Federal, Winchester, or Speer that’s reliable in your personal pistol. My question is - does the same extend to hunting? Why do states require/individuals recommend a minimum power cartridge like 10mm, .357/.44 Mag, or even greater if the wounding characteristics don’t change depending on caliber/cartridge?
I’ll never forget the old ModCast he was on and ragged on PCC. He was so right…..
What a knowledgeable yet off putting guest
Gary isn't off putting. He goes right to the point. He presents facts without needing to sugar coat or make people feel better.
@PrimaryAndSecondary that is your perspective, mine is different
@sgtcwhatley there is a point after decades of this stuff where someone just presenting the info is quite welcome.
@PrimaryAndSecondary I welcome his knowledge, I don't expect things to be sugar coated. His presentation reminded me of Jeff Cooper, you respect the knowledge and the work, but the delivery is off-putting, no one wants to talked down to, especially when they agree with the presenter.
I think it’s just more so surprising that you had to make a comment that he was off putting. What are you doing even watching this stuff then?