Fighting Games Most Notorious Attack

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  • Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
  • Can I get some balloons in chat?
    Edited by - / hqrubbish
    Follow me on Twitter - / theoryfighter
    Music from Monolord - • Monolord - Vænir Instr...
    #fightinggames #fgc #karnovsrevenge

Комментарии • 573

  • @alfonshedstrom9859
    @alfonshedstrom9859 2 года назад +2095

    It’s funny how broken moves in fighting games are never the fullscreen laser or the instakill combo, it’s always just some low kick that lingers a bit too long and single handedly invalidates half the cast

    • @ATMOSK1234
      @ATMOSK1234 2 года назад +114

      Sometimes it is the instant kill combo though

    • @slyseal2091
      @slyseal2091 2 года назад +126

      @@ATMOSK1234 Yeah but without the visual layer of abstraction nobody's gonna jump to the instant-kills defense.

    • @PsychoticLuke
      @PsychoticLuke 2 года назад +96

      Yup. In Battle Arena Toshinden for PSX, if you play as Rungo, and do a standing punch (square button), he bashes quickly with his club. Thing is, it has shitloads range and recovers faster than opponents damage animation, this meaning that you can infinity kill anyone in the game by simple pokes.

    • @maagic2031
      @maagic2031 2 года назад +122

      Reminds me of melee. Fox's defining tool is his frame 1, invincible shine. Puff's defining tool us her gigantic 12% back air. Samus's defining tool is... crouching. Just crouching. And its probably the tool that annoys newer players the most.

    • @Nowel22222
      @Nowel22222 2 года назад +10

      R.O.B. dtilt ☠

  • @tanyaharmon6739
    @tanyaharmon6739 2 года назад +826

    Throwing your entire body is a pretty effective form of attack. Also, loving the increase in production value

    • @Spit1990
      @Spit1990 2 года назад +9

      Ah yes, the old "Swamp Stage" technique.

    • @TheKing-qz9wd
      @TheKing-qz9wd 2 года назад +1

      I wholeheartedly disagree.

    • @decidueyezealot8611
      @decidueyezealot8611 2 года назад +11

      @@TheKing-qz9wd Disagree all you want, perfection is perfection 👌 👌

    • @lilwyvern4
      @lilwyvern4 2 года назад +7

      Throwing the enemy's entire body is pretty effective too. Clearly the best solution is to play a grappler and do REAL SOVIET DAMAGE!

    • @decidueyezealot8611
      @decidueyezealot8611 2 года назад

      @@lilwyvern4 unga bunga all the way

  • @genuineangusbeef8697
    @genuineangusbeef8697 2 года назад +376

    You didn't mention the bull :(
    (i mean to be fair it's obscure WITHIN obscure, but when you beat the story mode of this game without dropping a round, you get a secret fight against a literal bull. Fought against with proper mechanics. It is unplayable without hacking, has a lot of broken boss character properties, and probably wouldn't fit well in this video but like... it's a goddamn bull)

    • @Ramsey276one
      @Ramsey276one 2 года назад +19

      Thanks for the info!
      Saw it in MUGEN
      Hope it makes it to Switch!
      XD

    • @Ephraim225
      @Ephraim225 2 года назад +22

      It's not a bull, it's an ox. With muscles.

    • @Ramsey276one
      @Ramsey276one 2 года назад +6

      @@Ephraim225 So the MUGEN I saw renamed the MooBro...
      XD

    • @GreenChillZone
      @GreenChillZone 2 года назад +14

      It's not the only one. One of the opponents in Human Killing Machine (the pseudo-sequel to Tiertex's Atari ST port of the first Street Fighter) is a matador, and after defeating him you then fight the bull. It's not even the first animal you fight in that game.

    • @Ramsey276one
      @Ramsey276one 2 года назад +2

      @@GreenChillZone
      That
      Is
      HILARIOUS!
      XD

  • @kingcrowbro2486
    @kingcrowbro2486 2 года назад +452

    The editing on this video was absolutely incredible TF and I'm really excited to see you develop this style more. And as always, I'm incredibly supportive of any mindset that encourages more thought to afforded to fighting games and how they can be navigated.

  • @riggel8804
    @riggel8804 2 года назад +145

    "Balloon!" Haha what a hilarious move.
    I would love to see an analysis of Claw's wall dive from ST. It's the most dynamic move I've come across. It's often called broken but it can be countered with any character by a knowledgeable player.
    It's dynamic nature would make for an interesting video.

    • @TelvanniGuard
      @TelvanniGuard 2 года назад +5

      Claw Dive has both counterplay and counter counterplay. It's why Hyoball is such an effective tactic. Claw can mix up his offense to mess with the opponent just as much if not more than they can respond after getting knocked by it. 2012's Tournament of Legends is a pretty good place to see just how effective it is and some good counters.

    • @riggel8804
      @riggel8804 2 года назад +4

      Cool thanks. I will check that out.
      There is a RUclips channel called"mao". He's a Japanese player that posts lots of claw matches. That's where I got a lot of my strats. It's also really fun to just hang out on Fightcade2 and spectate live matches. Hell, you could of seen me on there kicking that @$$ with claw about 10 minutes ago.

    • @TelvanniGuard
      @TelvanniGuard 2 года назад +3

      @@riggel8804 Mao's the Claw player in the Tournament of Legends so I think we both got a good idea of what he can do. 8D

    • @riggel8804
      @riggel8804 2 года назад

      @Darian Hagan I wouldn't say it's broken. It's really hard to pull off. It only works on certain characters when they are turtleing. For example it doesn't work on Blanka even when he is turtleing. I rarely see Vega's super pulled off with experienced players. Personally I can only pull it off on someone who I am dominating after they start turtleing. Also the movement and timing for the super is difficult.

    • @TelvanniGuard
      @TelvanniGuard 2 года назад +4

      @@riggel8804 The idea is that the super's not really required. If you miss the input for the super, you still get the grab. And if they're too far away you still get the claw dive. Both put the opponent back in the same situation as before which is the reason Claw's so busted. He hits or grabs ya and does it again till he wins or you guess right and go back to neutral against a very fast character with good pokes who can start the dive shenanigans again when he gets a knockdown.
      If you watch ST any Claw players who has a full super will be inputting for the Super Izuna Drop every single time they do a wall dive because there's no reason not to.

  • @cousinjohnny6584
    @cousinjohnny6584 2 года назад +66

    Seeing Fighter's History being discussed like this makes me genuinely so happy, this series has been beaten into the ground for years now, and watching someone recognize and talk about something good about it is extremely refreshing. Thanks a lot, man.

  • @nkopunch9279
    @nkopunch9279 2 года назад +345

    I agree wholeheartedly with this video, and the sentiment that it is really easy for the mob mentality to take over when no nuance is put forth. However, I also believe this same argument *could* be used easily to dismiss any form of criticism. Not in the case of this video, as it provides information on the move, its usage, its counterplay, how it affects the meta, and most important personally, the move according to every other options available at the moment. But, my problem is that I've seen far too many times when the answer back to criticism is "you have to adapt" or "get good", without providing anything back in answer. Like I said, this video is the perfect example on how to NOT do that, it presents the case and all the details about it, just saying that the mob mentality generalization can also go both ways.

    • @pokepress
      @pokepress 2 года назад +22

      Short Version: The fact that an obstacle can be overcome does not preclude it from being unwarranted or detrimental. ;) In this particular case, I do see how such an experience could leave a sour taste in someone's mouth.

    • @killercore007
      @killercore007 2 года назад +1

      Literally Pikachu from Smash Ult, and the preachers who kept the rat from being nerfed since day 1.

    • @7F0X7
      @7F0X7 2 года назад

      It's not mob mentality when I've never seen this game nor do I know anyone who plays this game nor have I ever seen any criticism of this game. The fact that he admits the devs would nerft this attack if possible is proof enough that it's broken. :)

    • @KrissyBlues
      @KrissyBlues 2 года назад +1

      @@7F0X7 It is very much the definition of mob mentality to go off word of mouth despite having never experienced it first hand to determine your own opinion on it though

    • @7F0X7
      @7F0X7 2 года назад +1

      @@aliasmcgames So if I have experience with the game, then I'm part of the "mob mentality", but if I've never played it or heard about it, and I come to a negative conclusion about the game from watching this video, then my opinion is not valid.
      LOL what a stupid comment.

  • @Shing_
    @Shing_ 2 года назад +27

    Crazy editing on this one, props for the editor for making this video so much more interesting.

  • @baalfgames5318
    @baalfgames5318 2 года назад +29

    It is easy to write off Fighters History Dynamite as just being a Street Fighter 2 rip-off, but it is a surprisingly competent fighting game, and actually ended up again one of my favourites for the Neo Geo. I wouldn't call it the best fighting game on the Neo Geo, but it's one of my favorites.
    And it isn't surprising that he would be a powerful character, considering he's the final boss of the game.

  • @aronpill2767
    @aronpill2767 2 года назад +8

    The issue with this same topic is that people tend to get used to and learn counter-plays for things that are not interesting, can be spammed ad nasium and don't require a lot of skills to abuse. Once they do learn how to play around it, any complain gets side-tracked as "git gud" or "lizard-priest is not even top 3 on pro-play". And sure, these thing may not be so important in the higher echelons, but it creates a really UNFUN learning curve where these moves dominate most of your time.

    • @Envy11235
      @Envy11235 2 года назад

      Fun is completely subjective. And honestly your entire complaint sounds like the people who complain about parrying solving a ton of issues in ds1. If you don't like the game don't play it.

    • @aronpill2767
      @aronpill2767 2 года назад +8

      @@Envy11235 So are "interesting" and "fair". Your comment is such a non-answer it hurts.

  • @CheeseWedge056
    @CheeseWedge056 2 года назад +118

    I loved this discussion, because anyone who views a move without the full context its being used in can easily call something broken, the same can happen with entire characters if given the wrong idea of where they sit in the game. Take a look at any marvel game, and you can identify any number of moves or characters who would individually be called broken, but that's because it's a 3v3 game series, and TOD combo's are a part of the fun, so any individual move being too good is much less of an issue.

    • @Yadadameanfool
      @Yadadameanfool 2 года назад +2

      Unless your vergil then just be broken

    • @mrosskne
      @mrosskne 2 года назад

      TOD?

    • @CheeseWedge056
      @CheeseWedge056 2 года назад

      @@mrosskne A TOD refers to a touch of death combo, in a team fighting game it's a combo that will kill a character, provided you have the resources to do it.

  • @Artersa
    @Artersa 2 года назад +32

    Calling something broken is a day one option select lmao. Excellent writing already. Btw TF, the audio mixing has improved drastically. Your voice is clear as day. The music is much clearer as well, but mixed in just right to add texture without muddying up your very British accent.

  • @TheAcidMines
    @TheAcidMines 2 года назад +29

    Definitely worth the wait for the upgrade in presentation and editing. I hope this becomes the standard for the channel, great work!

  • @erugurara8235
    @erugurara8235 2 года назад +8

    Happy karnovemnber.

  • @mastericarus776
    @mastericarus776 2 года назад +53

    I would love to see you talk about C-Nero's 5[C] in MBAACC, it may be the single most versatile (read: "broken") normal I have ever encountered in any fighting game.

    • @m-as9637
      @m-as9637 2 года назад +5

      where's the axl pfp

    • @klombernzx
      @klombernzx 2 года назад

      Biohazard! lol

    • @Yadadameanfool
      @Yadadameanfool 2 года назад

      Its because he literally has no other nuetral button but i guess thats what happens when you dont wanna fight with arms

    • @mastericarus776
      @mastericarus776 2 года назад +2

      @@Yadadameanfool He has j.C, j.B, 4C, 2C, a massive 2A, deer, crow, and snakes.

    • @YukiColburn
      @YukiColburn 2 года назад +1

      @@Yadadameanfool I mean if you look well at it, his J.C is fighting with an "arm". An arm with a massive amount of black stuff on it
      Or the snakes.

  • @slackerman_music
    @slackerman_music 2 года назад +14

    I think Fighter's History and Karnov's Revenge are very underappreciated. Glad some FGC channels are exploring it. 🙂

  • @GenericSoda
    @GenericSoda 2 года назад +11

    Hell yeah, Karnov's Revenge representation. Good video to round out #Karnovember

  • @thenerdyanarchist3492
    @thenerdyanarchist3492 2 года назад +7

    There was a move in mortal kombat that once had 34 variations, was hard to dodge, and was unblockable. It was since then nerfed, but it was a time to be had when if your opponent picked the character, you had a low chance of winning

    • @soulwarrior5791
      @soulwarrior5791 Год назад

      I have no memory of such a move, do you know which one it is and in which game?

    • @thenerdyanarchist3492
      @thenerdyanarchist3492 Год назад

      @@soulwarrior5791 Mortal Kombat 11
      Sheeva stomp

  • @nathadniel5790
    @nathadniel5790 2 года назад +9

    WAKE UP BABE KARNOV VID

  • @PolarBair8
    @PolarBair8 2 года назад +23

    Wow, this video is absolutely stunning. This feels like one of those old VHS tapes or DVDs with match footage and tech on them, like the famous INH Great Grapple 2004. Absolute banger of a video on an important topic. If there's any other moves I'd like to see this kind of video on, maybe Ukyo's Tsubame Gaeshi across Samsho games?

    I'd like to add one small thing at 4:16 - you don't even need to hit with Balloon to cancel it into a normal move. This makes the mixup potentially scarier as you can delay or fake out the double overhead and go low.

  • @cise3895
    @cise3895 2 года назад +28

    I’ve literally never heard of this game, but Balloon by itself makes me want to give it a try. I come from platform fighters, so jumping in other 2D fighters-including airdashers-has always felt really restrictive. So being able to initiate a free-form drift at any point during your jump -and skip neutral- sounds super sick.

    • @isaiahtorok7079
      @isaiahtorok7079 2 года назад +5

      You might like kof actually mai in 2002 has a ton of aerial movement options as well as kof having a surprising amount of impact on platform fighting movement

    • @cise3895
      @cise3895 2 года назад

      @@isaiahtorok7079 Noted! Already had an eye on KOF 2002

    • @pinkjolyne5432
      @pinkjolyne5432 2 года назад

      Try Melty Blood, it has the best air movement and freedom out of every FG, you can even drift in the air after neutral jumps

  • @feuras
    @feuras 2 года назад +7

    >Notorious
    >Karnov's
    Pick one

  • @lynco3296
    @lynco3296 2 года назад +68

    The problem with "broken" moves isnt necessarily that they have no counterplay. The main issue is how massively they can distort the meta. When the other player is living in constant fear of some absurdly powerful option you have and their whole gameplan revolves around dealing with it, you have a problem. Its just bad game design. Of course, if the powerful move is a part of the characters archetype or a core feature of the character, like pots command throw, then its fine. Alot of really old games were made by designers who didnt know what they were doing because fighting games were still in their infancy and the results were all over the place.

    • @esthersmith3056
      @esthersmith3056 2 года назад +10

      so like, that's a subjective value judgement. it's not objectively bad game design to be primarily playing around a dominating handful of options, whether or not that's "fun" depends solely on... what you personally find fun. you dont have to enjoy it lol, but it's an unusual play experience that, as you observe, you often can't really get out of newer titles; and to some extent, that's literally why these older titles have ongoing playerbases, because people want that experience and can't really get it anywhere else.

    • @martmine4618
      @martmine4618 2 года назад +5

      He's not even talking about fun or not. You didn't even pay attention to what he said.

    • @esthersmith3056
      @esthersmith3056 2 года назад +14

      @@martmine4618 i wrote about rather a lot other than fun, the thrust of my point was that "objectively bad game design" as a judgement inevitably makes an arbitrary call as to what your metric of "objective" game design is. it's true that i did not read him as carefully as i could have, but it's not like you made much of an effort to read me either.

    • @jknintendo
      @jknintendo 2 года назад +7

      I'd actually argue that giving a character a clear identty behind a specific gameplan to adapt to a threatening move is beneficial to the game rather than an issue
      A large problem with fighting games during the time period, and hell, even Karnov itself, was that they were all recycling the same ideas with few exceptions. If you throw a move like that on any character, you've got a unique trait that differentiates itself.
      Plus, sometimes the counterplay is actually *better* than the "actual" game in other matchups. That's subjective though.

  • @FreezingMocha
    @FreezingMocha 2 года назад +6

    Shoutouts to Heather

  • @RetroWrathX13B
    @RetroWrathX13B 2 года назад +5

    It is balloon!

  • @xboxgamer474246
    @xboxgamer474246 2 года назад +6

    Love the new presentation! Love the flexible concepts around balloon as well. It reminds me of the numerous counterplay options to crouch cancelling in MvC2.

  • @CrossfacePanda
    @CrossfacePanda 2 года назад +2

    5:42 Man, that CRT filter makes the snow stage background look so much nicer than in the actual game 😅

  • @nickr4837
    @nickr4837 2 года назад +5

    MVC2 had a nice progression over the dreaded AHVB, which threatened to kill the game in its 1st year. After a few years multiple characters became fast enough to be able to deal with Cable and his AVHB. and then you have examples like 3Strike where Yun/Chun were 1A/1B from year one until today. T

  • @RPGgrenade
    @RPGgrenade 2 года назад +11

    This reminds me of Melee Fox's shine (reflector) move. It has a frame 1 startup, in invulnerable on that same frame (so you can't grab armor them), at frame 4 or so you can jump out of it and do it again, or wavedash out of it to follow up on opponents, off-stage it send at a gross angle that makes it really hard to get back alive, cancels falling momentum so you can mixup falling timing, and no matter the percentage it sends the same amount so it's consistent as well. So it's often referred to as broken by people outside of melee.
    However there's a lot of counterplay to shine, like "Smash DI" which lets you use the electric effect of the move and the frames of impact to force your character way out of range of the move's followups, can be used off-stage to keep you close enough to get back, with ASDI down you can potentially grab it right afterwards, or you can wavedash back a bit and grab (it has a small-ish range), or pivot and counter hit, or simply jump with an aerial attack to make using the move really hard to pull off without getting hit. A lot of top level players know about this but most outsiders just see the shine spam and get killed by it a lot themselves so they assume it's broken without counterplay.
    I feel like there's a lot of parallels.

  • @iliakatster
    @iliakatster 2 года назад +6

    "developers are afraid to innovate"
    Goldlewis busts in with his pizza wheel, and happy chaos shoots everyone in the face.

    • @URAYULI
      @URAYULI 2 года назад +1

      happy chaos is just elphelt lol

    • @URAYULI
      @URAYULI 2 года назад

      @@isaacsteele7986 yeah, i know he's different. i just wanted to own this liberal with facts and logic

  • @BridgetGX
    @BridgetGX 2 года назад +1

    Karnov's was a perfect clusterfuck of brokenness. No one was truly broken because everyone was.

  • @magickitty9693
    @magickitty9693 2 года назад +6

    Ok, so about Trovao. The "Full screen safe on block drill". I'm a Gio main and I can confidently say that it is neither of those things. It is absolutely not fullscreen, it's barely half screen, it's only projectile invulnerable *after* it starts, it has a ton of startup (27 frames), and a ton of recovery (15 frames) meaning it's EXTREMELY committal to throw out. It's not a neutral skip in the slightest, it'll get you killed for throwing it out whenever.

  • @WolfXGamerful
    @WolfXGamerful 2 года назад +1

    Chief's been doing 6 overheads since the beginning of time
    Truly revolutionary.

  • @RabbitEarsCh
    @RabbitEarsCh 2 года назад +2

    The editing on this is actually incredible. I look forward to what other incredible stuff you pull in your future videos.

  • @SoraTrace
    @SoraTrace 2 года назад +1

    Balloon was invented by the ancient Karnovians to manage No Neutral November

  • @borkbork9541
    @borkbork9541 2 года назад +3

    Balloon seems really interesting, at least. I think that's what makes older 'broken' games like this, mvc2 etc so beloved, because it's fun and unique first and foremost

  • @CKarasu13
    @CKarasu13 2 года назад +12

    The most infamous move I could think of was the good old Dimensional Cape from Brawl. A move with basically no counterplay since, due to a design oversight, Metaknight is invincible and invisible for however long the player wanted it to be. While Metaknight cannot jump during this, so you can escape to a platform to avoid it, the problem is that you can end up in a situation where you're behind on lives and cannot catch up since the Metaknight player is completely untouchable. You lose to a time out.
    Obviously this exploit was banned, since there's really no good counterplay to it, but it does go to show that there are times where you can't just adapt. To be fair, these moves are usually a result of oversights and mistakes rather than design decisions.

  • @EdwardoFE
    @EdwardoFE 2 года назад +1

    You know the video is gonna be good when it opens with Vanilla Ice tandem combo nonsense.

  • @PostmanDan87
    @PostmanDan87 2 года назад +2

    Your videos have come a long way from your early thesis videos! Even as someone passionate about FGs, I learned a ton from this video.

  • @bageltoo
    @bageltoo 2 года назад +41

    The new editing style is cool but honestly I like your older basic style better. The arcade border takes up a lot of unnecessary space and, combined with the filter, makes the video kinda overwhelming and hard to watch on smaller screens. Great video nonetheless!

  • @CptMunta
    @CptMunta 2 года назад +2

    Love the new look!
    Especially around the second half where it all comes together nicely.
    Really love they way the whole video feels like it's presented in a 3D space!
    Can't wait for the next one!

  • @bryce7344
    @bryce7344 2 года назад +2

    man I did not like looking at this video at all. i feel sick

  • @SourSalty
    @SourSalty 2 года назад

    6:45 Owner of the channel says this when melee Fox's shine is the ultimate combo starter, edge guard tool, shield pressure tool, both invincible and active on frame 1 and reflects projectiles and is jump cancellable as early as frame 4 in a game where wavedash's first component is jump. Oh and it also comboes into itself, defines fox's neutral and while it's not the biggest hitbox in the game, it's alwase safe to throw. And Falco has a better neutral skip, it's just called Falco's lazer. You can throw it, it has 3 frames startup and ends really fast, can be fast fallen, allows Falco to control the space and control the pace of the match, is a combo starter, is a good snipe edgeguarder. Litterally melee's competitive players are forced to learn to deal with it in order to get far. Also the only way to 100% not get destroyed by this projectile is to reflect it, luckily everyone can reflect projectiles with perfect shields

  • @MarMaxGaming
    @MarMaxGaming 2 года назад +2

    4:30 looks like absolutely hell to deal with…
    Really impressive production! I have no idea how to do a bunch of that stuff… and it’s so far above and beyond, when just talking about a near broken move.

  • @Riddimensaur
    @Riddimensaur 2 года назад +1

    Before this video I had only ever heard the name Karnov's Revenge in passing and definitely didn't know anything about it specifically, but this was an incredibly interesting video and the presentation was beyond top notch.

  • @tonyg_fgc8152
    @tonyg_fgc8152 2 года назад +1

    The editing in this is insane! You're amazing at this, I love your fighting game videos.

  • @happycamperds9917
    @happycamperds9917 2 года назад +5

    I think Meta Knight is an interesting case, like Karnov people who didn't really play Brawl, or played it at a lower level, misunderstood how broken he was.
    He was top 1 and extremely popular, but his popularity in tournament was more from how fun he was to play than his strength (Most of Brawl wasn't a very fun game lol).

  • @akwikone9219
    @akwikone9219 2 года назад +12

    Good Editing and I love hearing your takes on game balance. Even though I'm not terribly well versed in fighting games, having dabbled in modding other games, I really like your takes on game balance. The Play vs Counterplay arguments, mixups and prediction is really insightful. Even in PvE situation having a strong or OP strat is great for new players and lets vets challenge themselves by deciding to not use it or finding similar work arounds.

  • @ggdeku
    @ggdeku 2 года назад +1

    The production and editing is phenomenal. Wow. Great video in terms of the actual subject too of course!

  • @spoopaconhojitas3829
    @spoopaconhojitas3829 2 года назад +1

    All i really got from this video is "Back in MY days"

  • @turbochomp
    @turbochomp 2 года назад +1

    This entire conversation reminds me of brawl meta knight. A super strong character that defines the entire meta game and while many people hate this, just as many people love how ridiculous the meta game is cause of him

  • @etang5
    @etang5 2 года назад

    0:39 "Deeming something broken is the day 1 option select that will help you avoid any accountability". Nice :P

  • @beroberoberoberobero852
    @beroberoberoberobero852 2 года назад +2

    damn man, production value is rising here! looking great! congrats!
    and nice to understand this game finally, ive seen jwong playing it and got me curious, if you did more videos on this game would be awesome!

  • @FinalLuigi
    @FinalLuigi Год назад

    It's reasonable to assume that the reason attacks like this exist is because the development process boiled down to designing the characters, designing the attacks and what they *should* do, and then being put under crunch to program it all with testing only ensuring that everything works. No roundtable discussions or committees discussing every minute detail of every attack.

  • @quantumpotato
    @quantumpotato 2 года назад

    Fantastic video! I love the emphasis on "interesting" over "balanced". Reminds me of a Halo 2 developer talk, paraphrased: "I don't think of game balance as evenness. We think of balance like stacking stones - duration. Will players keep coming back because the game is interesting? That's the balance I want"

  • @one7decimal2eight
    @one7decimal2eight 2 года назад

    3:11 chris moltasanti hanging out with adriana on the bench cheering the fight on

  • @degarri7995
    @degarri7995 2 года назад +1

    Sadly developers can’t afford to go outta there way and try something wild because of profits. Making games isn’t about making fun entertainment but rather making profit, that’s why when an indie developer does something unique it blows up because they have less risk in doing so.

  • @FriendlyKillbot
    @FriendlyKillbot 2 года назад +5

    I'm ok with the arcade setup, but you're warping and cutting off the screen in almost every single shot.

  • @cantbearpuns7439
    @cantbearpuns7439 2 года назад +1

    Damn man! I loved your videos before but all the work in editing was so awesome! The presentation is absolutely incredible!
    Congratulations and thank you for your hard work!

  • @SpookerDoom
    @SpookerDoom 2 года назад +5

    I always assumed Karnov to be unplayable, being an unselectable boss character at least in arcade mode. Of course Balloon was broken, and I'd never take the "Fighter's History community" as a real thing if quarter munchers were selectable options

    • @dariogonzalez8989
      @dariogonzalez8989 2 года назад +5

      You're thinking of the original Fighters History. This video talks about the Neo Geo sequel, Fighters History Dynamite (AKA Karnov's Revenge), where Karnov was made playable despite him still being the final boss.

    • @BridgetGX
      @BridgetGX 2 года назад

      Oh, Karnov is playable in this. And he is the second biggest pain in the ass this game has to offer. First is Zazie.

  • @roknindo
    @roknindo 2 года назад +1

    Man, your editing is top-notch. Great vid overall and that move definitely is "interesting" haha. Thinking about it more, I have definitely been quick to judge moves in the past myself, especially during the SFxT days. But yeah, it's wild now seeing how quickly discussions become a tale of two extremes on Twitter.

  • @vonBelfry
    @vonBelfry 2 года назад +6

    See, I'd agree if it were simple. As it stands, any player introduced to this will not have fun, and will be forced to study it to counterplay it. By saying "it's fine", you're dooming the game to have a minute audience all because of one single move on one single character. Sorry, but that's broken.

    • @dekoldrick
      @dekoldrick 2 года назад +4

      Reminds of how the original Street Fighter 2 was intended to be you and your opponent try to land as many single hits as possible until only one is still left standing. Then people found out you can combo and this really broke things because a well versed player would delete an opponents health bar since the game didn't take combo damage into consideration. It can become hard to attract new players to a game when your opponent gets turned into a spectator.

  • @JB2X-Z
    @JB2X-Z 2 года назад +2

    Oh, so THIS is where Dno's emote comes from

  • @johnnybajaxoxo
    @johnnybajaxoxo 2 года назад

    Fantastic production, so glad this showed up in my recommendations!

  • @Razertas
    @Razertas 2 года назад

    Yo, the editing on the Pot sequence was absolutely incredible.

  • @UseVisine
    @UseVisine 3 месяца назад

    Haha. Saw the silhouette and thought BALLOON!!! right away.

  • @StrayScythe
    @StrayScythe 2 года назад +1

    Shoutout DNOpls & Fighting History

  • @Spunney
    @Spunney 2 года назад +16

    this reminds of melee with wobbling. pressure from people outside of the community encouraged it's banning and high level players with an agenda reinforced it. from an outside perspective it looks so broken but when you gain an understanding of the game and ice climbers as a whole you realize it's... not even that good. a very situational and committal option on a character that debatably isn't even viable. not to mention the amount of passionate, burning hate that people have directed at players using wobbling (nintendude, bananas, chudat) which ive seen several times end up in literal calls to violence against them, wholly supported by whatever toxic forum these words are posted in. what's wrong with people?

    • @esthersmith3056
      @esthersmith3056 2 года назад +1

      to be fair, the community did end up banning wobbling, though my understanding is that the vast majority of people who voted for the ban explicitly agreed that it's not broken and just didnt really enjoy playing against it.

    • @Spunney
      @Spunney 2 года назад

      youd be correct! the whole thing was just sort of wishy washy in my opinion... felt like people grasping at straws to try and find objective reasons to support their bad faith arguments instead of being honest

    • @S1neWav_
      @S1neWav_ 2 года назад

      grabbing isnt even that commital but alright

    • @martmine4618
      @martmine4618 2 года назад +1

      Tbh melee is a complete mess of a broken game. Its really hard to know what you should or shouldnt ban.

    • @Spunney
      @Spunney 2 года назад

      @@S1neWav_ nana and popo have to be synced up and ice climber's grab itself is particularly stubby even by melee standards. understand that ice climbers dont work like marth or sheik, you cant just dash dance and abuse movement the same way they can to use grab as a reliable tool. if you throw out random grabs in neutral you'll get abused pretty quickly, i know from experience :)

  • @Kiyosuki
    @Kiyosuki 2 года назад

    Karnov is what fighting game perfection looks like.

  • @ShinobiestWorm
    @ShinobiestWorm 2 года назад

    Fighting game video essays and doom metal? Fucking subbed. Can't wait to dig into your previous stuff.

  • @leonam6474
    @leonam6474 2 года назад

    Omg these edits are amazing!! Great job!

  • @RedLineFGC
    @RedLineFGC 2 года назад +1

    Sick editing, sick essay. Karnov players are another breed.

  • @Fleetw00d
    @Fleetw00d 2 года назад +2

    Its an interesting situation because anyone would think that a competitive game needs to be balanced, and it certainly does to an extent. But some of the most fun you can get isn't necessarily the most balanced, and if I had to pick between the two, fun wins every time.

  • @forechunkukee
    @forechunkukee 2 года назад

    such a cool examination. can't believe your channel doesn't have more subs, hoping you blow up!
    The flexibility of the move really reminds me of Fox and Falco's "Shine" (down+b) in SSBM. A 1f invincible move that can cancel into all sorts of shenanigans. Melee was also never patched, and it's cool to see how players have simply adapted and played around dealing with that move. Great point about having to see single moves in context and not in a vaccuum.

  • @thisistherun4015
    @thisistherun4015 2 года назад

    What an upgrade, using the editing to display your points very well. Keep it up Mr. Theory

  • @andoreh
    @andoreh 2 года назад +1

    The editing with CRT effects is amazing!

  • @frds_skce
    @frds_skce 2 года назад

    Jesus, i think i found my new fighting games analysis channel now

  • @wowb1965
    @wowb1965 2 года назад

    When it comes to this guy, free balloon day is every day

  • @SnekEater
    @SnekEater 2 года назад

    Wife's funeral vs. TheoryFighter Karnov's video

  • @littleguyalex
    @littleguyalex 2 года назад

    This is shot and edited so well it's ridiculous. Fantastic work. I'm hitting that bell for sure.

  • @scaleitback1055
    @scaleitback1055 2 года назад

    In Chaos Code, Catherine has a toned down version of Balloon if you guys are interested.

  • @jelaninoel
    @jelaninoel 2 года назад

    I cant believe i was right in guessing balloon. Never even played the game but kinda recognized the silhouette

  • @irreliventable
    @irreliventable 2 года назад

    I've never even heard of this game and my man is telling me it has a community.

  • @Zetact_
    @Zetact_ 2 года назад +6

    Issue is that people don't want to just say, "I don't know how to deal with [x]" so I think them saying it's broken is sort of like subconsciously fishing for someone to tell them how to counter it. Especially since people tend to respond better to the hostility.
    I am one of the majority who don't play Karnov and the only major thing I'd take issue with on this move at a glance is that it's invulnerable the whole time through, which makes it look pretty dumb when you see fists just pass right through this guy moving slowly through the air. I think that a similar move would need to have a better sort of conveyance. Like say if the character is a vampire and they have a move like Balloon where they turn into mist. Or even if it's the same move, if instead of invul it was a guard point and getting tagged in the air pushes Karnov away (which would be a logical thing to happen).

    • @servantofcygnus
      @servantofcygnus 2 года назад +2

      May not be broken, but is definitely awfully designed, and people are just identifying that in the wrong way.

  • @grahamwalker2168
    @grahamwalker2168 2 года назад

    Visuals and editing on that were terrific. Well done 👍👍👍

  • @kriterer
    @kriterer 2 года назад

    I think the most shocking thing about the move is that the main character has it and looks like that

  • @deathscythe2091
    @deathscythe2091 2 года назад +1

    think the word of the video is gonna be "accountability"

  • @wakkaseta8351
    @wakkaseta8351 2 года назад

    Balloon clearly needs to be buffed if there's that much counterplay to it.

  • @hsalfesrever3554
    @hsalfesrever3554 2 года назад

    The scariest part about that move is the input

  • @ebenbarclay2406
    @ebenbarclay2406 2 года назад +1

    sick editing and production

  • @yeetkunedo
    @yeetkunedo 2 года назад

    Loving the editing improvements here.

  • @kaiserbts8007
    @kaiserbts8007 2 года назад

    @TheoryFighter
    So it did get changed, in the SNES follow up (Fighter's History: Mizoguchi long name I can't remember), they made it so that if you do it on the ground, it makes you go backwards into the air (but I find holding up-forwards after the motion negates that effect)
    Not sure if they changed anything about the invulnerability, it just seems the same, you can't combo into it from any air normal as far as I can tell, but you can combo after doing the balloon attack
    One last big change that still makes it completely broken, if you do the air version on a cornered opponent, it hits multiple times, regardless if you are blocking or not, and that can lead to followups
    That's not the only Karnov move that is broken though, his charge kicks are also completely broken, doing it into the opponent leaves you point blank and plus (I'm pretty sure) and pushes you pretty far into them, so they have little chance of getting out of a loop
    What do you think of these changes??
    (The SNES game is very weirdly balanced and I have a feeling it was unfinished because it seems pretty easy to fix the bugs they left, they added new moves to characters that either really help, or don't help at all, I can't really find an example that's in-between, and it has a weird character selection, leaving out their more iconic characters (Ray, Samchay, Marstorious, Jean, Matlok) and only added an overpowered Chelnov)

    • @kaiserbts8007
      @kaiserbts8007 2 года назад

      One more thing to add, the stages in that game are pretty thin, so you have a high chance of getting cornered, all the reason Karnov can just get into your face

  • @briggasnax8575
    @briggasnax8575 2 года назад

    I think May's dolphin would be a better example, especially considering it also has 2 versions like balloon, and the fan outcry about the move.

  • @Sorrelhas
    @Sorrelhas 2 года назад

    It's weird that the move is completely invincible
    The big heckin' scar in his belly it's just asking to be anti-aired

  • @ecoterrorist
    @ecoterrorist 2 года назад

    Love that fuzzy doom metal in the background

  • @daystyrfer7887
    @daystyrfer7887 2 года назад

    Imagine if your entire body had a hit box irl

  • @lrgogo1517
    @lrgogo1517 Год назад

    That stray mouse cursor does a number on this vid's arcade cabinet aesthetic..

  • @SupermanNew52
    @SupermanNew52 2 года назад

    This presentation is unrivaled.

  • @fawfulmark2
    @fawfulmark2 2 года назад

    Wow, Shantae's dad has a scary as fuck move.

  • @thinkcarefully5168
    @thinkcarefully5168 2 года назад

    Your videos keep getting better, super keen for whatever you have in store next