Joseph Smith married a 14-year-old??? Ep. 108
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- In this episode, Dave talks about some of the controversy surrounding Joseph Smith’s 14-year-old bride, Helen Mar Kimball.
Joseph Smith is considered the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (otherwise known as the Mormon Church). During his time as the prophet of the church in the mid-1800s, Joseph Smith received revelation from God on the practice of polygamy. For more episodes about polygamy, search our channel for our episodes with expert scholar Brian Hales.
From JosephSmithsPolygamy.com (Brian Hales): bit.ly/3hWRHCD / bit.ly/35ndUVk
“A Subject That Can Bear Investigation,” by J. Spencer Fluhman (BYU): bit.ly/2LsJJ8m
“Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo” (essay on Church’s website): bit.ly/2MITdwO
“The Prophet Joseph Smith and His Plural Wives,” by R. L. Anderson and S. H. Faulring: bit.ly/35kg6wN
Additional info/responses to criticisms: bit.ly/3ntqY1z
“Lending Clarity to Confusion,” by Brian and Laura Hales: bit.ly/35xWiGx
A short book on plural marriage written by Helen in 1884: bit.ly/3bmsfoS
Some info from ThirdHour on Helen: bit.ly/35kahPU
Notes
-- For additional information suggesting that the relationship between Joseph and Helen was likely not sexual, check out the information about the Temple Lot trial in this link: bit.ly/3hWRHCD
--One controversial quote that we didn’t get around to addressing in the video comes from a woman named Catherin Lewis, who, after leaving the Church, published an exposé in which she said: “The Twelve took Joseph’s wives after his death. Kimball and Young took most of them; the daughter of Kimball was one of Joseph’s wives. I heard her say to her mother, ‘I will never be sealed to my father, (meaning as a wife) and I would never have been sealed (married) to Joseph, had I known it was any thing more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it. I say again, I will never be sealed to my Father; no I will sooner be damned and go to hell, if I must[.] Neither will I be sealed to Brigham Young.’” -"Narrative of Some of the Proceedings of the Mormons; Giving an Account of their Iniquities" by Catherine Lewis, 1848, pg. 19.
If this second-hand late hostile source is to be trusted (and that is a huge “IF”), we have a few questions to grapple with. For example,
---What did Helen mean by, “I would never have been sealed to Joseph, had I known it was any thing more than ceremony.” People interpret this statement in a few different ways. Some interpret it as evidence suggesting that Helen’s relationship with Joseph was sexual. Others believe it to be an allusion to the fact that her social life was disrupted by the marriage. But in the context of the surrounding text, it appears to me that she is saying something along the lines of, “had I know I’d have to be sealed to Brigham or Heber after Joseph’s death, I never would have married Joseph in the first place.”
---Another question would be: Was there an expectation that Helen would have to marry her own father after Joseph’s death? I haven’t seen any indication of this anywhere other than Lewis’ work. Obviously, in all reality Helen was not required to marry her father (or Brigham), and the idea of marrying her own father would have run contrary to the idea that these marriages were for the purpose of connecting families together (since Heber was already her family).
---Another question would be: Was Helen tricked into the marriage with Joseph via a promise of unconditional exaltation? This idea is addressed in the video. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that there was some misunderstanding on Helen’s part, or perhaps inadequate teaching on the part of Heber and/or Joseph.
-Sometimes Latter-day Saints will defend Joseph Smith in this case by bringing up the argument of “Presentism.” Marriage at 14 at the time was certainly legal, however, a 14-year-old marrying a 37-year old man would have certainly still been exceptionally rare. That said, clearly this was an unconventional marriage relationship, and the age gap loses much of its scandalousness when we consider that their relationship was likely not sexual, and, frankly, not romantic.
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This was not a “marriage” by the definition of what a marriage is. This was a “sealing” to link the families for the afterlife and expand the number of children born into the covenant (she didn't have any children with Joseph Smith but with her husband had 11 children together).
She never left her home to live with Josept Smoth. She married her actual husband two years later in the Nauvoo Temple for time and eternity.
I love how the early church was being persecuted for polygamy and how women were allegedly being mistreated, and the women of the church were like "What are you talking about?" and they decided to travel around and give presentations talking about the benefits of plural marriage and print pamphlets correcting inaccuracies. Pretty cool.
🤣🤣🤣👍🏽
My favorite is how Utah was one of the first states where women got the right to vote, because the politicians over in Washington thought that if only these poor oppressed Mormon women could vote they'd use that voting power to stand against polygamy.
Once they realized that the poor oppressed Mormon women in Utah weren't using their vote in the way they had anticipated, they promptly took away their right to vote.
There were also shelters similar to halfway houses where any woman in a polygamous marriage could go for refuge to get out of what was supposed to be an awful situation. These shelters were eventually closed due to a dearth of women fleeing polygamous marriages.
Kinda like the women that follow Warren Jeffs?
No matter what spin you try to place on this, the situation this "prophet" and the girl's own father created for this 14 year old child is abusive and reprehensible. If any of you LDS people heard of a 40 year old minister of another faith approaching a young teenager and saying to her "Marry me- and you and your entire family will be saved!" you would condemn him, and you would be right for doing so.
@@richardclark2495 if a 14 year old's father approached Warren Jeff's and offered to 'sacrifice her on the altar of polygamy' in exchange for salvation, how would you view that man? How would you view the self proclaimed "prophet" who accepted this?
Exactly!
I’m wondering if he listens to the video… Because she wasn’t promised salvation. What people don’t understand is that the Temple sealings are symbolic. They manifest the desire of one’s heart. The Holy Spirit a promise can only make a Sealing efficacious in the world to come if it is done with full desire. So Helen is not sealed to Joseph Smith in the world to come if the Holy Spirit senses that she doesn’t want to be. And the same is true for any other person who is sealed to any other person. Sealings are not automatic. They are SYMBOLIC.
@@truth.speaker Am I surprised at all that something like this happened back then? Nope. But is it difficult for me to swallow sometimes? Yep.
It is a lot harder for us to understand or accept that something like this happened back in the 1830s and 40s. Our culture is different now. 14 year old kids today are not on the verge of being adults; they're just kids. Women in our culture today have much more independence from their husbands and/or fathers. Things are just different. But, yes, to answer your question, if someone offered their 14 year old daughter to a man for marriage today, I would be more than simply concerned.
Also, he was not just some self-proclaimed prophet. For instance, most of his family stood by him his whole life. There were also the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. Joseph did not simply proclaim himself to be a prophet. There are countless independent witnesses that Joseph Smith is and was a Prophet of Jesus Christ.
Also, also, let's assume that him marrying Helen Kimball was a mistake. Does making mistakes, even big mistakes, mean that Joseph could not have been a prophet? Because we have evidence all throughout every book of scripture in the Latter-day Saint canon (including the Old and New Testaments) of people who were called of or chosen of God who made mistakes. King David committed adultery and murder. Moses did not trust that God could make him a prophet. The Israelites were pretty dang distrusting in the promises of God throughout the entire book of Exodus and then over and over again after that. Judas, an apostle, betrayed Christ. Peter, the future prophet, denied Christ three times. Peter and Paul, as I understand it, had some quite fiery disagreements. (However, I should clarify that I do not think that the marriage between Helen Kimball and Joseph Smith was sinful or a mistake.)
For me, arguments that imperfect people can't be prophets or called of God do not hold much weight. I understand that a lot of people struggle with the faults of their leaders, and many leave the Church over them, but I don't understand how we can expect anything other than imperfect discipleship from our leaders.
Also, whoever it is that is pretending to be President Nelson, I don't believe that what you're proposing would ever happen. And, if it did, yes, I would struggle with that. But I wouldn't leave the Church. I have wrestled with virtually every major argument against the Church (some definitely more than others) and my faith remains intact. In fact, I think that it is even stronger. I have struggled here and there, for sure, but I believe that Joseph Smith was and is a Prophet, that the Book of Mormon is a valid book of scripture, and that Jesus Christ is my Savior and yours. God bless.
@@russelm.nelson721 IT also teaches, doctrinally, that such sealing are only effective when confirmed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, so Rachel is being doctrinal.
@@russelm.nelson721 why are you impersonating someone else? That's just wrong.
I don't care whether it was sexual or not, the power dynamic in that relationship (especially considering josephs position in the church) is unhealthy
Oliver didn’t like the polygamy but he still didn’t deny the Book of Mormon so I take this as Joesph Smith was trying to grasp the eternal family.
14 years old was a common age for a girl to get married in those days.
A quick Google search tells me it was 22-26 yrs. I would like to see if you have a more thorough analysis of this information because I've heard both answers before.
@@susheel2k7 Yes, 20's was the most common age of marriage, but it was still relatively common to get married at a very young age.
In the 19th century it was common for girls that young to marry. Two of my great grandmothers got married at the age of 13 and had a kid at 14. It was not super common but it happened. I am grateful for them.
Sorry, you’re wrong. It was not common at all. The average age for women was 25, and for men 28.
My grand grand parents married at 15 and 19 years old
people in England and Wales were working at seven years old, in many cases, and by 13 and 14 left school [if they were lucky enough to go], were considered adults and did marry at this age, and it should be remembered people often did not often live past the age of thirty - it was a different time and it is unfair to judge todays standards to back in that period.when life was completely un recognizable, large families were often sent to worhouses, because they were in a state of destitution , it was considered a blessing to have the offer of marriage by all concerned and if we found ourselves in such circumstances, today doubtless we would be grateful that we were saved from such a fate of starvation and death
Three of my aunts were married at 14 as well. Not uncommon many years ago
“Common” situation doesn’t make it right!!! Also it was common black people being slaves. Can you differentiate right and wrong?
D&C 132:61-63
Joseph should only have been taking polygamous wives to "bear the souls of men". So in order to be faithful to the law set out by the Lord, he must have been at least trying to procreate with his plural wives. That includes the several teenagers and the 14 year old in question. An argument from silence is not valid enough to overcome the word of the Lord that Joseph Smith was likely obeying.
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood-if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.
The whole point of the folk myth about being visited by an Angel is that he wasn't living it. We are not claiming JS was perfect, not is it the claim he never had a carnal relationship (although some people rational argue he didn't). The preponderance of evidence and the tone of Helen's own accounts strongly suggests he did not likely have a carnal relationship with her. You can assume all you want, but maybe you should read what she had to say on the subject.
@@brettmajeske3525 I didn't mention the angel with the sword at all. But I don't see how Joseph is justified in taking HMK to wife if he wasn't following the commandment of D&C 132 to multiply and replenish the earth.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Well there is far more to the Sealing power than just replenishment. Still Smith is often being corrected in the D&C, and he was often repenting. The claim is not that Joseph was perfect, only Christ was perfect. Plural Marriage was obviously a struggle for him.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Or God knew he would be martyred and didn't want to leave Emma with even more children to care for so Joseph was called to introduce the practice and Brigham was the one who restored it completely.
@@CalledtoShare Or God doesn’t exist, this whole thing is a lie and you’re all twisted for attempting to justify such immoral acts. Occam’s Razor
Funny how many people in the comments have made up their minds and probably didn't pay attention to the video.
D&C 132:61-63 says that polygamy is specifically for procreation. That the women must be virgins and vowed to no other man. So Joseph wasn't following the commandment? There is no time or eternity part in the revelation found in D&C 132. You left out the part where Helen said if I would have known the marriage was anymore than a ceremony, I would have said no. She admitted she was deceived. You also say her family was saved by her works, but not their own? So article of faith #2 doesn't count here? Why don't you point out the fact the Joseph said, in public, he only had one wife a month before he was killed in Carthage? When are you guys going to practice what you preach and be honest in all things?
Can we talk about the Happiness Letter and the few occasions were an apparent Angel with Flaming sword threatened to kill JS if they didn’t get married? Also, please don’t coward away and erase my comments like the other 6 times.
Did you have any links in your comments? That seems to be the most common reason for deletion. There other is formatting, You Tube often has problems with copy/paste. Talking about the angel is difficult because we do not have first person evidence recorded. Mostly rumors and hearsay.
Don't worry, this video will be getting the fact checking treatment as of tomorrow!
@@zombieslayer2961 yup, same as the Bible.
The Happiness letter was an unsigned letter that John C. Bennett published and attributed to Joseph. John C. Bennett was on a campaign to ruin Joseph for exposing him for the liar and adulterer he was.
@@annsertrue8782 Wow.........did this dude just say the pillars of his testimony were shattered by a letter from an enemy who had every reason to lie.............................. come on man
Source? 2nd and 3rd hand. I believe Joseph wasnt lying when he condemned polygamy all throughout his life. I believe Mosiah 11 is a true warning of a second evil king who started polygamy.
When a dad goes to you to marry his 14 year old daughter:
1. say "NO"
2. have him get psychalogical help.
That’s not how they saw it back then however
@@rachelczumaya2806 Sadly. We still have a popular religion that basically defends statitory rape in a specific situation.
@@The_Other_Ghost But there's no evidence that Joseph ever had sexual relations with Helen. In fact, as detailed in the video, there seems to be evidence that they were not even ever alone together.
@@richardclark2495 I was refering to God... 2. What was the point of polygamy for the church according to smith?
@@The_Other_Ghost Do you mean the dad you were referring to was God? Not sure if I'm understanding what you meant there.
Also, though I can't point you to any quote, my understanding is that the point of polygamy was multifaceted. It was used to unite families; like in the case of Helen Kimball and Joseph Smith, it appears to have been an attempt to unite the Kimball and Smith families in the next life. Polygamy was, yes, also used to be able to bring more children into the world (though, as far as I understand, DNA testing has not been able to find any evidence that children were born to any of the women that Joseph had polygamous marriages with). And, it was a test. Polygamy was a hard thing for many members (both men and women) to accept. Many believed that God was testing them to see if they would do everything that He asked them to, just as God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac.
Hey Dave, one question often brought up by critics that I haven't seen addressed anywhere yet is why not seal himself to Heber's wife, or Heber himself? The same goal of connecting the houses would be accomplished.
You can spin this all you want, but regardless, what a horrible thing to do to a fourteen-year-old girl. This is not right, regardless if there was no sexual relationship with her. Talk about all the women he married that were already married to other men, if this is not already bad enough.
He did so he wouldn't have to have relations with them. A marriage back then and a sealing were two different things. A sealing is for next life only, nothing in this life. Joseph didn't want anything to do with it either.
@@StompMom5 aha... So it was just God´s and the father´s idea for the adults to tell the 14 year old she could possibly save the family from hell if she just married this man? And Joseph didn´t say out loud "yes I like this thing" and that makes him morally righteous?
@@zeecaptain42where does it say “if you don’t do this you will be condemned to hell?” Like, what? Give me ONE verifiable source.
If there was nothing sexual about it, then there was nothing bad about it.
what is the big deal. Mary, mother of Jesus was about 13 when our Lord was Born. in the time of Joseph Smith it was not unheard of women to be married at the age of 14, and throughout most of Human history, a woman was considered of marriageable age from the onset of menstruation. Funny how often people like to criticize from "today's morality" Which is completely different from the morality of the past 6,000 years.
My graeat great aunt married at 14 and her husband was 21, they weren't lds.
So, according to the foaming at the mouth anti mormon crowd, this would be grounds for leveling the accusation of pedophelia.........it sounds even more ridiculous as I type it lol
They lived in the 1920s and they were married until he died 30 years later
@@DavidNellTheHarbinger
They are hypocrites who criticize the church but then they started sleeping around at 14. I had classmates who did and even had abortion and I went to Catholic school.
My great great aunt thought racial segregation was cool…
My grand grand ma was 14 and my grand grand father was 17 or 18
If Helen's marriage to Joseph Smith carried social consequences, doesn't that mean it was treated as a time-and-eternity marriage? She was clearly off the market...
Helen was sealed for Time and Eternity, she was a true wife. I think it is likely that if Joseph had lived to see her turn 19 it would have been consummated, maybe. Joseph seemed reluctant to consummate the temporal Sealings. He preached that men who married younger wives should wait until they were 19, and it seems he followed his own council.
@@brettmajeske3525 Thanks for the insight. Do you have a source for Joseph Smith teaching that they should wait until the women were 19? I am not able to find this.
@@curelom Sorry, weather emergences have distracted me recently. I remember reading it in one of Brian Hales books, but I do not recall which one off the top of my head. I will try and hunt down the specific quote, but 7 volumes is a lot so it might take me a few days.
Frontier communities accepted younger girls marrying older men, especially widowers. Actually reading Little Women, (Joe called herself an Old Maid at 19, married a man in his forties), the Little House series (both Laura and her older sister were married at 16, and were considered adults at 15), or Anne of Green Gables ( a number of her friends from school were married at 17) indicates the social acceptance.
I am not saying I agree that such standards were what was best for those involved, only that it is not evidence of sexual predation.
That was very informative. I almost didn't join the church because anti-mormon church info. I was told Joseph forced a 13 year old to marry him. Though I never got that matter resolved I knew the moon of Mormon was true and that Joseph was a true prophet. I was 14 then I'm now 50 and I love the concept of plural marriage and would gladly embrace it when it comes again.
I don't think it will ever really be needed again! I find it interesting that the Bible has plural marriage and no one cares!
Ahh yes, the moon of Mormon. I love that one...
@@stardustgirl2904 Literally no good reason. Even the 7 women clinging to one man bit says "...only let us be called by your name..." The formality is all that would be necessary in these days of UBI, in vitro, and our gospel understanding. If it were an eternal principle then let us seal all women to Christ (as nuns) and let's be done with it. It will never be what people think it was and will be.
@@thecookinggamer1916 I like that too. I don't think I'll correct it. Haha
@@stardustgirl2904 I think that during the millennium there will have to be polygamy because we have been told that more women will keep their second estate more than men due to their not keeping and or not enduring well to the end.
Does anyone even wonder why polygamy deniers are having so much success?
Four of my GGGrandfathers practiced polygamy and one GGGrandfather spent 4 years in a federal penitentiary in South Dakota for practicing polygamy. FYI, historians say, Mary was 12 or 13 when she became pregnant with the Savior, age is of little concern with the Lord.
I wonder when that was going to be brought up. Biblical scholars think Mary was around 14, and Joseph was in his 30's. Which would have been normal in that day and age.
It was a Virgin Birth. Do your justifications know no limits?
@@saras9094 “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” Apparently you don’t believe we are actually created in God’s image. How do we procreate? How do you think God procreates? You are of the belief that our bodies are vile, un-God like because we are in a fallen world.
@@saras9094 You are missing the point, Joseph of Nazareth a man in his 30s married 14-15 year old girl. How she became pregnant is irrelevant.
@@UVJ_Scott God doesn’t procreate, he creates. The Son of God is uncreated.
We equate sealing with marriage. Perhaps we don't know what it was Joseph was actually doing.
Yes, the distinction between sealing and marriage is an important one!
Exactly. This was not a “marriage”. It was more like a “sealing”. She never left her home to live with Joseph Smith. She married her husband in the Nauvoo Temple two years later “for time and eternity”.
Plural marriage was practiced by the Old Testament patriarchs, so I'm not sure why any member of the Church or any Bible believer, for that matter, would find it hard to digest.
Not sure how plural marriage ever started in the first place but by the time of Christ, that became taboo. Jesus taught that a marriage union was between one man and one woman. So 1800 years later is really a bad move in the wrong direction! That is why Mormons had so much trouble in the US. It opposed everything the new republic stood for. So no, plural marriage was not acceptable, especially in the 1800s.
Even in Genesis, God makes one woman for one man. That is how God intended it.
That’s so true. Like freedom of religion. Unless you believe in polygamy, then you can expect persecution.
It’s cool if you cheat on your wife, but once you’re committed to multiple women, that’s when you’ve crossed the line.
Trouble. I like that word. Let’s just say the Jews had trouble in Nazi Germany. Martin Luther King Jr had trouble in the US.
Plural Marriage started with the son of cain who took two wives and is infamous for his famous poem in genesis 'The Song of the Sword' that has him gloating about how much more evil than cain he is and how he loves all the pleasures.
All prophets in the old testament aren't seen as compases of moral behavor like they are in modern times. They are seen as sinners who relied on the grace of God. Just because they practiced polygamy doesn't mean God instituted it or that it wasn't abominable in his eyes.
In the end Jesus, the perfect example, made it clear the final relationship will be between you, God and jesus. That was the first relationship and will be the last. Everything else is a shadow.
The old testament contains many things that don't jive with compassion. But even there, there was no command to take multiple wives. It happened, but no angels with swords threatening destruction to men who don't take more wives. Joseph's polygamy was unique.
@@britty4755 Amen!
And should I be getting excited for a sequel titled, “Who was Fanny Alger?”
They have talked about Fanny Alger before
@@bluegill0133: I’d be interested in a full rundown from David. It would bring me joy. Please don’t deny me.
@Jehoshaphat Jones: What evidence would convinced you that Joseph and Fanny had an inappropriate relationship. And yes: We could all use more Fanny.
@Jehoshaphat Jones: So, you would only accept a firsthand account as evidence against this question of Joseph Smith’s moral character?
@@seans5289 We have had levels of evidence discussions before. Each degree of separation lowers the level of reliability. Generally one first hand witness is equaled by 3-5 second hand, 7-10 third hand, and so forth. So an over whelming number of non first person witnesses would be needed to equal the lack of first person. Hearsay evidence can be legally admitted, but it has a much higher standard of scrutiny. The same is generally true is historical research.
And it isn't even a case of witnesses claiming sex, but sex prior to their plural marriage. If you think you have such evidence I would love to hear it.
Bien hecho y bien dicho Hno. David .
Thank you for this video. Drives me nuts how critics purposely leave out basic facts such as Helen never spending time alone with Joseph without a chaperone.
In his book ‘Evidences and Reconciliation’, - 1943, John A Widtsoe quotes a 1890 church record that showed 1.4% of the church had more then one wife. In his treatment he suggests that a possible reason for this commandment was a request from the spirits yet to be born to descend to mortality to the best possible familial conditions and legacy. A very insightful read. Everyone should read his testimony there in before forming judgements of those commanded by God to this practice. He also debunks many beliefs, held by many, about others reason for this practice.
This study shows that literally the first sentence of this video is a bold faced lie
Great way to start a video
My grandpa did polygamy, because he thought he was the new Joseph smith. He died
What are the Joseph Smith videos that you show as stock video? I'm aware of Days of Harmony and A Day for the Eternities, but you show clips that aren't part of either of those. Where can I find them?
Joseph smith: the Prophet of the Restoration
@@timneji these clips are a bit newer than that one, they have different actors
@@alecrichardson6947 than i don’t know
If you’re uncomfortable with polygamy, I think you’d find yourself extremely uncomfortable in the Celestial Kingdom since it is taught in the church that this is an eternal principle. As Brigham Young put it: “The only men who become Gods, even the sons of God are those who enter into polygamy.” If you dislike this so much, why not just leave the cult instead of trying to defend such a horrendous principle?
If you are going to cite a quotation, it is good manners to list the source. Such a teaching was never accepted as official Doctrine.
So… that means that essentially the entire population of the LDS church will not make it to the celestial kingdom? Also, it’s problematic if you’re going off a prophet’s word, because they each contradict each other. If you have a modern day prophet proclaiming that polygamy is not necessary, and an older prophet stating that you do need it, which one is right?
@@a.walters123 The one proclaiming the Word for the time you live in. If a weatherman announced the forecast for the year previous, are you going to heed it? Now, what about the forecast for the coming week? We can still learn from previous weather patterns, but it does not determine what it will look like in the future.
What was the point of the polyandry?
In the time of Joseph Smith:
1) to expand the number of children born into the covenant
2) to link the families for the after life as one family with God.
Joseph smith didn’t fathered any children with those woman but they got married to their actual husbands months/years later.
If we don’t practice why can’t a woman be sealed to two men? If a husband dies before his wife she cannot be sealed but if a wife leaves earth before her husband she cannot. Make it make sense.
You mean to say a woman indoctrinated by and “sealed” to the founder of a cult at the age of a junior high student later defended her abuser?! Well then he MUST’VE been a great guy with nothing but pure intentions!
The only “proof” that there was no sexual relationship between Joseph Smith and 14 year-old Helen is that she didn’t seem to hate him later in her life… Yet according to D&C 132:63, marriage is for this purpose, “_they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment…that they may bear the souls of men._”
FairMormon also gives no evidence that there was no sexual relations in Joseph Smith’s plural marriages. In fact it says in the case of Joseph’s marriage to 14-year-old Helen Mar Kimball that “_consummation would not have been inappropriate, since this was a marriage_” …The official Mormon website says that consummation between a grown man in his 30's and a 14-year-old girl would be appropriate. That is disgusting.
In both Science and Law one does not prove the negative, but the affirmative assertion. If women are to believed when they accuse abuse, then they should also be respected when they deny it as well. Helen has more published testimony than any other of Joseph's plural wives and live until her 70's. I think she deserves more respect than you are giving her.
You're looking at the situation from a 21st century perspective. No doubt there are many other norms of society that occurred hundreds of years ago (in today's view) you'd find equally as disturbing. While marriages to girls that age were not necessarily common, they did happen more often than you might be ready to admit. You also ignore the fact that this marriage wasn't initiated by Joseph Smith, but rather by Helen's own father. If Helen was married with the focus on sealing the two families together and lived at home during the time that she was sealed to Joseph, it's unlikely that anything inappropriate occurred. But since you insinuate to have studied this issue beyond what the scholars of Fair Mormon, the LDS website, David, and others have done, please enlighten us all on the light and truth you apparently possess on this issue...
@@brettmajeske3525 Correct Helen never claimed abuse (that’s my description of the situation). But she also never denied that their relationship had a sexual nature! And if the norm is that marriages include sex, especially 18th century marriages where consummation is necessary for it to be considered a legitimate marriage, then the LDS church has provided NO evidence that Joseph Smith didn’t have sex with a 14 year-old girl.
@@Old_and_Wise I’m not looking at the situation from a 21st century perspective. Quite the contrary, I’m looking at it from an 19th century perspective, where the norm was that marriages include sex and where consummation was necessary for it to be considered a legitimate marriage. I’m also looking at it from a Mormon perspective where (according to D&C 132:63) the whole purpose of a marriage was to consummate and pro-create.
So what perspective should I shift to? An embarrassed LDS perspective where I desperately try to avoid the obvious conclusion?
@@thebard2806 As many others have stated, most of Joseph's plural sealings were non sexual.
"...especially 18th century marriages..."
But the standard was also not plurality. Obviously these sealings were not following 19th century standards. I do not know why you think they happened in the 1700's anyways. Both in the court of law, and historical scholarship one does not prove something didn't happen. The Burden of proof is always on the affirmative.
In the book Marriage:A History the author said that the age of consent in the early 1800s was 10-12 years old and in Delaware it was as young as 7. So Joseph did not do anything illegal.
Why is whether or not something is "illegal" the go-to defense for church apologetics these days? Oh, found a loophole in the law, did he? Since when did worldly definitions and standards become the measuring stick for God and his servants?
Your explanation suggest selfish motives on behalf of Heber Kimball perhaps for his own Pride that his family be joined to the Smith family and receive further recognition.
He used his daughter and endeavoured to shame her from having any youthful aquintances or genuine romance. Another example of patriotic control as you said he wanted what he thought was best for her but what it really meant what was best for him! Perhaps he like some men have to excersise control over his daughter because he was inadequate and jealous of her youth.
The man took away her free agency! He did by fear ,of her losing eternal life and glory and loss of respect, what choice did she Have!
You will find no defense of Heber Kimball from me.
She had as much choice as I did to be baptized at 8.
@@Hala-ataa You make a lot of assumptions.
Men who were decent were not married to 14 year old girls at that time in that era as you try to claim .
Its not just those who were perhaps exploited sexually who were coerched and manipulated but many others were through fear or ignorance by losing respect, love and support of their family if they did use their free agency as you like to put it and make the so called Right moral choice.
How do you know how she truely felt when she woke up each day. You dont!.
Latter day saint communities have and still are like whitened scelptures, all white on the outside but within full of dead mens bones!
They hardly have excersised tolerence or respect for others choices of living perhaps in total contrast to theirs but rather they hold contempt and judgement thinking they are Gods chosen people. No different in many ways from sadduccess and pharises or the higher member of jewish society who taught that they were the ones chosen of GOD. Then there are many like unto them. So how is it and has been the case that LDS communities until very recently were so concerned only with their insular local ward or stake. Oh we pray for the bishop and our stake presidency and our prophet ! Do you hear prays for the suffering children and families of the people of Yemen killed and injured with weapons made in Utah and cruise mississles that our Govt sell to Sunni Arabs of Saudi Abrabia, or the starving in the African continent or the ill and dying in our local hospital , the fact is these prays are vurtually non existent in any latter day saint church or ward and you know why because you all have your heads stuck furmly up your own arses! pardon the discriptive.
@@Hala-ataa well that proves little. I have written in my journal things i no longer believe. Also people change their minds over time with new knowledge and experience. Some peoples jornals are written for what they think people will want to read in them if their not present. How do you know that family members were not continually excersising control and dominion upon her most of her life. Again you dont.
@@Hala-ataa Anyway why the big emphasis on Whether Joseph Smith was a prophet . He wont save you in the next life!
Abraham, Jacob, and Moses were all polygamists. They are some of THE biggest prophets of the religion. God's giving those guys revelations and promises and having them be his prophet all while they're in polygamous relationships. Why didn't God tell them to knock it off? Hmmm. Nathan the prophet goes further, telling David that the Lord not only has allowed him to have many wives, but "gave" them to him. Is it possible the Bible-believing Christians who have issues with the practice should reconsider their own prophets and history?
back in the old days marriage at that age was not uncommon so not thinking its too controversial
What is the scriptural basis for this marriage linking the Kimball Family to Joseph....and for what purpose in the hereafter??
The saddest thing about Helen’s last reflection on plural marriage is that she confessed it was her severest trial. To think a 14 year old girl can be conditioned and groomed to embrace abuse and live an equal existence as mare in a husband’s stable of women is more appalling than the sheer possibility that she could have endured Smith’s physical contact with her. Smith was a known philanderer and womanizer, spreading more the good word around his travels. To characterize a 14 year old’s account of her relationship as exoneration of Smith as not being physically inappropriate with her is a denial of the victims context. A 14 year old girl will characterize what’s inflicted upon her as whatever her abusers want her to believe using the stick of damnation and the carrot salvation
There is a great biography of Helen Mar Kimball written by L. Hannah Stoddard. Helen Mar Kimball also wrote a book called “Why We Practice Plural Marriage.” You should read both these books. The Prophet was not a philanderer nor a womanizer. He treated all of the women in his life with the utmost respect. She was not physically or emotionally abused in any way.
I learned a lot about polygamy in one of my religion classes at BYUI. I think one of the biggest factors that changed my perspective on it was that it took 8 YEARS for Joseph to finally make the revelations somewhat public, and even then, he only told a handful of trusted friends at first. He really didn't like the revelation, and didn't tell anyone until a heavenly messenger told him that it was a commandment, and he would be destroyed if he didn't obey the Lord's commandments. It was also, at least according to other people's accounts, very hard on Emma and Joseph in their marriage. Neither of them personally wrote anything, but close friends of theirs wrote about how much they both really didn't like the idea of bringing more people into their marriage.
Haha that’s one way to look at it! Talk about twisting history...
it took a lot for such a revelation to go public. these people weren't too far removed from burning witches at the stake. culturally, plural marriage was a shock. even though it was biblical, it was shocking nonetheless. Also, having many enemies of the church and getting killed and kicked out and threatened with extermination did not make things easier. very complicated.
@@Ether-pb5gb seems pretty simple to me: Men wanting to sleep with various women and using their theology and the Bible to justify it. Polygamy was considered illegal in the U.S., and that’s what drove them out. Nothing more. This is not a story about persecution, this is a story about a group of men committing illegal acts and escaping the law... wanting to take advantage of their female followers, both emotionally and sexually.
@@trevorper is Jesus the Christ?
@@Ether-pb5gb No
I was taught that though you have been sealed in the during the judgement day you can ask to be released for that sealing. During the mid 1800s being married at 14 was not uncommon. Until the mid 1900s in some places people still were marring in the early teens. I knew a girl whose married when they were around 14, the couple immigrated from Portugal to US
Heck I knew a girl in high school who got married at 14 to her 19 year old boyfriend. My grandmother was 15 when she got married and her mother was 14. My mother was the first women in five generations to marry after turning 18.
Not trying to start an argument but it wasn’t common for a 14 year old to marry a 37 year old. When 14 year olds married at that age it was usually to someone within a few years age to them. Again I’m not trying to argue just wanted to let you know.
@@mazdabazda2267 Well it depends on what you consider a few years. Men were often older by about a decade, because they needed to be established and either own land or a business. So 27 would have been more common than 37.
Edit: Some example from my own non-LDS genealogy. My grandmother got married at the age of 15 to a 23 year old. Her mother was married at 14 to a 25 year old. My other great grand mother got married at 15 to a fifty year old. And this was all since 1900. For my Kentucky ancestors, the average marriage age for females is 15, for the the men it is 25. For my Quebec ancestors, females is 17, men is 29.
@@mazdabazda2267 I was only stating what I knew.
@@brettmajeske3525 i have a 4th great grandmother who was 14 and 4th great grandfather who was 49 when they got married.
It’s interesting that the severest critics of this sealing oftentimes ignore the fact that Joseph’s chief antagonist, Governor Boggs, married a 15 year old but that fact didn’t slow his ascent to the Missouri governorship.
Governor Boggs was 20 when he married a 15-year-old. Certainly wrong by today's standards, but far less creepy than 37-year-old Joseph Smith marrying a 14-year-old.
Classic blame shifting', sit by yourself with this fact, is this ok?. Forget about critics, anti Mormons or prophet or Bishops. GAVE YOURSELF TIME WITH THIS ISSUE.
@@curelom I was a missionary in Argentina.....and I taught a couple that was 40+ and about 15-16.
@@curelom it wasn’t that uncommon for older men to be marrying younger women either.
@@curelom it’s also not uncommon for some people in our day. I knew a man who was almost 70 and was married to a 20 year old. They were sealed in the temple as well. She was a mail-order bride. He married her because he wanted someone who would care for him in his old age, and he had never been married. So he decided to look into marrying someone from the Philippines. She has been a good wife to him and has had two children by him even in his old age. They knew their marriage would not last very long in this life, but the wealth that he had would be inherited by her and would set her and his children up for good lives here in mortality. They looked at the situation with an eternal perspective and both of them had a great respect for each other. I don’t know how that could be such an unholy thing. When people have true hearts that are not interested in sin, they can be put in any situation and do the right thing. Perhaps the whole test of polygamy was to see if the members of the church would give into their sexual whims or if they would control them and use them as God and the Holy Spirit directed.
Christians should own their own polygamous history as well. By that i mean stop preaching its wrong looking back at abram and haggar. It wasnt wrong to give haggar in marriage to abram. Jesus never slanted abram or the 12 sons of israel. So why should christians rip on it now. its pointless crap
My late stepmother, who was definitely not LDS, was first married at age 15 to a 21 year old man. This was in Kansas in 1939. Kansas law permitted this early marriage provided she had permission of her parents. Which she did. Early marriage in the past might not have been terribly common, but neither was it nonexistent. Kansas, by the way, still permits marriage as early as 15, with both parental and judicial approval. Massachusetts minimum marriage age is 12 for females and 14 for males, with both parental and judicial approval. Of course marriage at such a young age is pretty much a very bad idea, but it is certainly not a crime against humanity.
thank you for the light
For people below 👇
Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Joseph may not have coerced her. But certainly groomed her.
Legend says even if I ask politely, David won't respond
If evidence came forth that Joseph Smith did have an inappropriate relationship with a child, would it change your belief that he was a prophet?
Not any more than finding out that David sniped Bathsheba would make me tear out his bits from the bible...
@@SaneAsylum: Do you think that it is at all possible that Joseph Smith did indeed have an inappropriate relationship with a teenage girl?
Do you question the bible because of the relationships if past prophets? Is all Christianity doomed then?
I appreciate your thought-out and straightforward questions
@@seans5289 At this point it is impossible to know. It is possible George Washington or Abraham Lincoln had inappropriate relationships, but we can not prove it either way. Does that mean we should burn down their memorials?
Even if they weren't sexual relationships why did they have to happen at all? That's not how sealings work today. So, was Joseph wrong about sealings then or are we wrong about sealings now? Why did those girls need to be sealed to him?
Exactly!!! And why would sisters and mother/sisters have to be sealed to Joseph? Keep asking questions. You will find the truth. It is NOT the LDS church!
No one has to be sealed to anyone to have eternal life.
@@windywithachanceofsunshine5219 amen.
Even Joseph learned step by step, line upon line.
IMO celestial marriage does not equal earthly marriage therefore does not equal polygamy.
Thank you for addressing this! Could you maybe do a video on “A Case for Joseph Smith”? Kind of like the book “A Case for The Book of Mormon”. I would just like a video to refer to about defending Joseph Smith ❤️ Thanks for all you guys do! Love this channel!
@Zei-Agapa Joseph Smith, obviously.
With respect and love, you wouldn't defend Warren Jeff's behaviour, would you? So why defend this man who did the exact same thing (only Joseph did it with more lies)
@@truth.speaker Hi, It’s Because Warren Jeffs was NOT called by God to be HIS (God’s) prophet here on the earth. My testimony is not of Jeff Warrens. I have a testimony that Joseph Smith IS a True prophet of God. Just like biblical prophets were called to polygamy, so was Joseph. It was by God. The 14 yr old, Helen Kimball was the daughter of a friend of Joseph’s. Her father asked Joseph to be sealed to his daughter. Helen goes on to write a book and DEFENDS Joseph. She was not ill treated and their marriage was not sexual.
@@ChicHulaGirl86 does literally anything ever make it okay for a 14 year old to be given to a full grown man in exchange for his false offer of salvation?
No. Nothing makes that okay. Nothing.
You claim he didn't have sex with her. What evidence do you have of that? In Jacob 2 in the book of Mormon it directly says that polygamy is ONLY ever acceptable if it's for the very specific reason of having offspring. Do you think Joseph obeyed Jacob 2:30?
@@truth.speaker You can’t explain everything God asks of his prophet’s.
Is she a relative of President Spencer W. Kimball?
Yes. She is Spencer's Aunt.
I want to respond to this more but its too pointless because he married even the married ones, the wives of the missionaries. Oh God! He just had the time of his life with gullible human beings who believed in him. This is probably why he died young. God knows what else he would do with the POWER HE HAS-shamelessly using the name of God and Jesus Christ in his immorality and hiding behind the sacred word "Thus saith the Lord," to pretend that the immorality he's done is commanded of God.
Don't you see???
Very well presented. Appreciate the time you put into this and other content.
Naive. When good ole John D Lee- you know - a bishop in Utah and the guy leading the Mountain Meadows massacre- the guy the church reinstated ALL his temple blessings- married a 12 year old that was innocent?
You forgot the details that Joseph Smith mentioned that an angel would kill him if she didn’t marry him 😂
Folk tradition, there is no record of Joseph ever saying that. Several second and third hand witnesses made that claim 15-20 years after he died. Even then none of those people made the claim in regards to Helen, and none of those stories claim the Angel would kill Joseph. The folk tradition has become greatly exaggerated over the years.
@@brettmajeske3525 completely wrong. You need to study up on your religion more.
@@Jack-pg8tn So you are either claiming that you have a quotation directly from Joseph Smith, or a citation where the claim was explicitly death, or specifically mentions Helen Mar?
I have studied my religion quite thoroughly. You can prove me wrong by providing with a refutation of any of those three points, otherwise you are buying into the exaggerations of a common LDS folk tradition.
Even the Gospel Topics Essay which mentions the story does not claim it came directly from Joseph Smith, but from people who knew him. The classic deffintion of hearsay.
@@brettmajeske3525 My comments keep getting deleted towards you.
@@Jack-pg8tn Try using citations instead of links. Links get deleted by You Tube quite often. Citations, like you learned in 9th grade English, do not get flagged by the algorithm.
I left not because of polygamy but because it was stopped! Why would God tell Nephi that polygamy was an no abomination when his brothers pushed for it ? When was the need for raising up a righteous seed greater than in those days in the new world ? Why would God institute a practice that Hd knew would bring disgust! disgrace! Scorn! Suspicion! And every bad feeling towards the church only to remove it soon like in a blink of an eye later? IF polygamy is indeed Gods preference then He would have let it stand and the chips fall as He directs ! Now Smith and young are seen as lascivious lustful predators or manipulators. Prophets who lie deceive and manipulate are not prophets at all
I respect you tackling such a difficult subject, but this one I have strong feelings about. NO, no, no! The biggest issue is NOT with sex! Sex is a big deal, but a MUCH bigger deal is pressuring a 14 year old girl into marriage for a ANY reason. Marriage is a day to day gigantic deal! Can't we just say it was wrong? Honestly, why not? Who listening has been taken advantage of by powerful people?! It happens way too often. Think of 14 year old Helen with compassion please! She was not a bargaining chip for her father, nor was it appropriate in any way for Joseph to marry her. This one isn't hard. This was at the very least bad judgement on the part of Joseph. He held all the power. Helen held no power, other than to sacrifice herself on the alter of much older men's wishes. It was wrong! Awknowleging Joseph did some wrong things doesn't mean he was all bad. But when there is such a clear situation as this, giving Joseph a pass is not ok. Just isn't ok.
Many 14 year olds we're married at this time! They had to work very hard back then , and the maturity level was also very different! In California the age of sexual consent is now 14, and I think it's way way to young, childhood in these days should be cherished! And appreciated, but back in the day survival skills and just having a place to live was the focus! Very different mindset!
It wasn't marriage, it was a sealing. Huge difference. He didn't shack up with her nor have intercourse that we are aware of (and I sincerely doubt).
You are still viewing this through 21st century mind. This occurred in the first half of the 19th century and wasn’t unheard of even if it was a normal marriage, but it wasn’t even a normal marriage.
So I take you object to arranged marriages, even though they tend to have much lower instances of divorce?
@@stardustgirl2904 Sorry but no, marrying at 14 was not common. And when girls married that young they married young men. A 14 year old girl marrying a 35+ year old man was scandalous at the time. Add to the age situation the plurality of wives, his position of supreme power, etc. Joseph knew perfectly well what he was doing would not be accepted in his time. He feared for his life and kept things secret for good reason. I'm willing to give Joseph a break on a lot of things. This particular thing though - no way. It was just wrong. Imagine you are in Helen's place for a second.
4:50. We are free to have our own opinions. We are not free to lie about other's reasons and opinions. We are not free to claim things about a religion's teachings and beliefs which are not true.
Well if people can claim they are true then people can claim the opposite. There is opposition in all things
Can we talk about Famny Alger? The young teenage servant girl in Joseph’s household who was caught in a scandalous physical affair with the prophet without for Emma‘s knowledge? This was several years before the revelation of celestial and plural marriage so I’m not sure what Joseph was doing besides satisfying his carnal desire. Oliver Cowdery, whom God entrusted as scribe to the dictation of the book of Mormon, was so disgusted he was beside himself.
And if the restoration of God‘s church and the dissemination of the book of Mormon are so important for God‘s plan of salvation, why would God and trust their revelation to a man who acts in such a way? Wouldn’t that mean fewer people would find salvation when we are understandably repulsed by such actions and form reasonable conclusions that such a man is highly unlikely to speak for God?
There is another video on that topic. I would not call 19 "young teenage" since that is the end of the teen years. No one made any claims about a sexual relationship, and we do not know that Emma was unaware, since she denied it ever happened in the first place.
Your video begins with the statement that the Church ended Polygamy over 100 years ago. This is true, but the EFFECTS of Polygamy due to surviving Polygamists and the children of Polygamists, meant that the ripples of this practice continued for many years after. Pop Quiz: in what year did the last LDS Prophet who had actively practiced living Polygamy die? Answer: Heber J Grant, in 1945*. Current LDS prophet R. Nelson was 20 years old when the last Polygamist prophet died. See? It is not as far removed as one would think...
*to be clear: Heber married living wives #2 and #3 in1884, and they lived with him as such after the ban went into effect for several years, but Wife #1 and Wife #3 were dead before he became the Prophet, so he was a prophet who was a Polygamist, but was not a Polygamist at the time of being Prophet. He did have two simultaneously living wives until 1908. I keep saying "living" wives because Polygamy is not dead in the Mormon Church. Current LDS Prophet R. Nelson is "sealed" to two women, one is dead, meaning he will have (at least) two wives in Heaven.
Which is by and large beside the point. There is a common misunderstanding in the world that as Latter-Day Saints, we still practice polygamy in mortality. David was correcting that misunderstanding.
I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion, that polygamy is not dead in the church. It is. Yes, President Nelson is sealed to multiple women, but he was not practicing polygamy here on Earth. I think that is what most people would be concerned with. So, in that way, we don't practice polygamy.
But, I do appreciate and respect your willingness to fairly look at the complexity of the issue. God bless, brother!
Amazing explanation 💜💜. Thank you !
How about you read Kimballs writings and get back to me?
@@elijahgreybosh7882 best to be real. Honest with the truth as confronting as it is.
Same Argument Muslims use saying Aisha was Mature.
Many saints go way overboard with the "I hAvE iSsUeS wItH iT" overreactions, like a knee-jerk *jump* to disavow our past and by extension disavowing past leadership- And current leadership and non-leadership who are sealed to more than one wife. Meanwhile worldly people today celebrate having multiple partners, but evidently that's okay so long as they aren't married. A degeneration of culture. Plural Marriage is an institution ordained by God- In its time and in its place, whether it was 200 years ago or 2,000+, or in the future tribulations where we're told there will only be one man for every 7 women who make it to Zion. Whether or not it's something we participate in today doesn't make it wrong in the past. You have to really make that conscious choice to truly believe, holding nothing back, to stop leaving one foot out the door and own your faith. (I thought I believed before, but after doing a 10 day media fast I realized I had been holding back all this time, and really came to understand the Church and our gospel so much more- The important part of a fast being that you replace the thing you're fasting from with something good- so for those 10(13) days I filled that time with study, I highly recommend it to anyone).
The time will come when the wheat and the tares will be divided and the church will be persecuted worse than ever before, and it's certainly not going to be divided over some hippy consecration economics. Meanwhile it must necessarily be that plural marriage is reinstituted- otherwise the church in its current fallen state would excommunicate its own founding leadership and many men resurrected that had more than one sealing. The logic train is easy to follow- Many of the people who built up walls and reactions to hate even thinking about the big P' probably wont make it.
Not to mention that if Joseph wasn't sealed to others, he wouldn't have made it to the Celestial kingdom- Emma went apostate.
God never commanded polygamy OR POLYANDRY
Prove me wrong from the Bible 😉
Emma didn’t go apostate… that is not accurate at all. She just didn’t go west with the Saints like many of them. It was an issue where they prayed over what to do and some people stayed behind for one reason or another and I think the Lord understood those reasons. We aren’t to judge those reasons.
I mean the 1800 was not too long ago what about the rest of the people and tribes Egyptians from before why did they not receive revelations? Jo is a fake and he was not prophet
This is a channel I really 👍
Thanks for the info really help to understand the mean reason of my covenants and my own sealing with my wife
Bro you’re deceived. Check the history honestly. It’s all crap. All of it.
Marriage is a covenant with God. The couple is one. No one needs to be sealed to their family. You already have a covenant with our Lord.
Peace!
Hope you’re doing good brother 🤙🏽
@@windywithachanceofsunshine5219 you misunderstand this purpose of sealings. The ordinances are all symbolic. To be sealed to your family shows that you keep a connection with them and that your heart is bound to them to help and serve and treat your families with love as it talks about Ephesians. So yes, we do need to be sealed to our families. “For if our brother hath ought against us, go to thy brother.”
@@windywithachanceofsunshine5219 while some members of the church think we believe in dead works, we don’t teach dead works. For none of these sealings or ordinances have any sway or pull in the world to come unless it is “sealed up by the Holy Spirit of promise”. The Holy Spirit knows that you have not been faithful or knows that you don’t desire to be sealed, then He will not count that sealing toward you. We can’t lie to God. Our faith is what we are saved by. Works are symbolic of the faith we have.
Sounds about FLDS.
Now personally... I have no real personal testimony of marriage other than people did it and perhaps the spirit bares witness of it. Personally... I dont wish to be enslaved by it
Fanny was 14 and lived in the Smith household. They were caught having an affair in a barn before JS had any vision of polygamy.
There is debate about whether it was an affair or the first plural marriage. Although she first met Joseph when she was 15, the marriage/affair (depending on ones opinion of the matter) happened when she was around 19-21 and Joseph was still in his 20s.
The average age for marriage in the 1800s was 28. The examples of “my ancestor was 23 and his wife was 15” is using very select data in a specific podunk region, that were most likely Mormon or polygamist as well. These examples are not indicative of the time, and it was NEVER normal for a man in his late 30s to marry a child. Period.
Well, I would be interested in where you found that statistic. Not that Averages tell the whole story. Women tended to marry earlier than men, not to mention men were more likely to remarry after the death of a spouse. A more pertinent statistic would be what was the average age first time wives married. The first report I found on google was from theclassroom dot com:
"Less is known about the average age of first marriages during the 19th century. In 1890, when the U.S. Census Bureau started collecting marriage data, it was recorded that the average age of a first marriage for men was 26 years, and the average age of marriage for women was 22 years. The average age of a women who married for the first time rose steadily, although not sharply, from 1800 to 1900."
As for "select data in a podunk region" that is exactly what is being talked about here. Yes average marriage ages were higher in well established urban centers, and younger in rural frontiers. Since the discussion is about a rural frontier, stats from urban centers like New York or Boston do not matter. I was quite clear when using examples from my ancestors that they lived in rural Michigan, Missouri, and Kentucky. None of them were LDS from what records I could find. While the nationwide average for first time marriages of women was 22 in 1890, it was 17 in Kentucky. While there is not good census data before 1890, it is quite reasonable to think it was younger in 1842.
The claim was not that 14 was common, it would have been considered young. The equivalent of marrying at 17 today. The claim is that it was within the normal acceptable range. My mother was 18 when she married in the 1960s. She was the oldest first time marriage in her direct line for eight generations. The next time we find a 18 year old woman marrying for the first time in her direct ancestors was in the 1700's. None of them were LDS. So who were all these teenagers marrying? Again, just based on my family line, the husbands were most in their mid to late 20s. A difference of 7-10 was common. Now those age gaps changes once one cross's to the Old World, but in frontier rural America, not as rare as you seem to think. You should read Little Women, the Little House series, or Anne of Green Gables. All of them describe 19-21 year old women as old maids. All of them describe 10-15 year differences as socially acceptable, even if 5-10 was more common.
@@brettmajeske3525 @@brettmajeske3525 First of all, thank you for the respectful response. I think we agree for the most part on the stats, but here are my references: www.history.com/news/5-things-victorian-women-didnt-do-much & users.hist.umn.edu/~ruggles/Articles/Fitch_and_Ruggles.pdf . Since we agree on age stats, I'm sure we would both agree that a 23 year age gap was never normal, especially when one of them is a child of 14 years? This is an obvious example of blatant abuse of power and authority over children. Helen was presented with this idea from her father (who, in my opinion was brainwashed by Joseph), and only consented after Smith explained to her that it would ensure her eternal salvation, along with that of her family. It's so sad to see that the same people teaching her about her power to choose/free agency are the same ones that took it from her. If you really believed that Joseph was a prophet of God, and you had the pressure of your family and your/their entire salvation hanging over your head, where would your choice be in the matter? Would you agree that the age gap was never normal and that her free agency was abused/taken from her? This behavior should be condemned, not justified, I would appreciate another response to those two things specifically.
@@trevorperDid you even read my response? You didn't present any evidence that a 22 year gap was never normal, only that it was not average, which was not the contention. We don't agree on age statistics, neither does your source material, "We lack sufficient reliable data for the colonial period or for the United States as a whole before 1850 to make confident generalizations about either age at first marriage or about proportions never marrying… In 1850, native-born white men married at a median age of 25.3 and women at 21.3.”
This is significantly different from your claim that, “The average age for marriage in the 1800s was 28.”
Indeed even using the 1890 census data, found in the article you cited to support your conclusions states: “By 1890, however, marriage age for whites of both sexes rose still further to a peak of about 26 years for men and 22 for women.”
The article doesn’t deal with extremes, but medians. The methodology specifically states that data from both extreme youth and age were excluded. Which is what we are concerned with in this discussion.
Even the 21.3 average failed to consider the difference between rural and urban populations, and the influence of multiple marriages. Your conclusions based on the data you provided are unreasonable. The articles you cite specifically mentioned that early America had significantly younger median marriage ages compared to Europe, and that the 21.3 age established for 1850 was based on a series of assumptions from data collected in most urban centers. The discussion is about rural frontier norms, which are never addressed.
My Great-Grandmother was only 15 when she married a man in his late 40s, this was in western Michigan in the 1920s. She was his third wife. She was from a poor family, he was rather wealthy. Census records from the first part of the 20th century, (based on actual records not just assumptions) show that in rural communities (not cities or urban centers) the median age of second and third wifes actually drops. Indeed the older the average age of the husband, the younger the average age of the wife. I am not speaking to the morality of this trend, only its existence.
“This is an obvious example of blatant abuse of power and authority over children.”
Given the culturally morality and understanding of the modern era, yes I can see that, although I prefer to distinguish between a teenager and a child. Fourteen is old enough to be tried as an adult for serious crimes. For what it is worth, the sealing happened only a month before her 15th birthday. At the time and place, 14 was old enough that they were expected to leave school and seek full time employment to support the family. To be qualified to teach school one only needed to graduate from the Sixth Grade, typically at the age of 14. In the 1830s and 40s, general society did not think of 14-15 year olds as children, and did not treat them that way.
Again, I am not judging the morality of the time, only its pervasiveness.
Helen Marr wrote multiple articles and books defending the practice of Plural Marriage. She was one of its greatest champions, well into her 60’s. She became a noted writer, editor, and publisher. She believed the practice gave women of her era greater freedom to explore careers and education. As an adult she did not consider herself a victim.
“It's so sad to see that the same people teaching her about her power to choose/free agency are the same ones that took it from her.”
That was not what she claimed for herself. She insisted later in life that she had full agency to refuse. The difficulty she described was being promised to be the prophet’s wife, but having to wait until she was 19 to act on it. You really should read what she had to say. She wasn’t really a wife, the sealing was a promise that she would be when she came of age. Joseph died less than a year later, and she married again two months afterward. She was 16, he was 23.
“Would you agree that the age gap was never normal and that her free agency was abused/taken from her?”
It depends on how one defines “normal”. An arranged marriage at 14 to be solemnized at 19, was within the range of acceptable behavior for the time. Such an age gap was not average, but neither was it outside acceptable propriety. Jo in Little Women marries a man 20 years her senior. Other such examples are found in the Little House Series and the Green Gable series.
As for her free agency, I do not feel it is my place to dispute her own claims. Respecting agency is a two way street. She grew up to become a successful educated professional. Her own opinions are worthy of respect. She was one of Joseph’s greatest defenders. It seems to me you are the one denying her agency to hold an opinion that differs from your own
@@brettmajeske3525 The mental gymnastics that is required to defend this act is mind boggling. It’s fine that YOU differentiate between teens and children, but the rest of the world does not, not in this regard. Child abuse or child trafficking relates to anyone under the age of 18. Joseph promised her entire family 'eternal salvation' if she would marry him, and she believed him and had confirmation bias towards that decision (that was forced upon her without her realizing it). My question is... why would her and her family's eternal salvation depend upon her being one of Smith's 40 wives? Couldn't she be saved and exalted by marrying a worthy man her own age and living a good life? And how does her actions save her family as we are each responsible for our own salvation?
The Church would have us think that this was not a sexual relationship, but what has been recorded from what she told friends, we get a different story: “I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it.” -Helen Mar Kimball (Mormon Polygamy: A History by LDS member Richard S. Van Wagoner, p. 53) If it was not a sexual relationship, then Joseph Smith went directly against his own revelation regarding polygamy in D&C 132 (to multiply and replenish the earth).
As time went on, Helen may have accepted it and even felt special by being known as one of the wives of the most revered prophet. Perhaps she decided to make the best of it as she had no choice at that point. No one but Helen herself can say for sure if she really enjoyed being a polygamous wife of Joseph Smith. However, one thing we can say with conviction is that a 14 year-old girl should never have been put in that position in the first place by Joseph Smith and by her own parents. Joseph married a total of seven children under the age of 18, and if you can’t see this as immoral, you may be in a cult.
@@trevorper Well maybe you should check out the books Helen herself wrote: Helen Mar Kimball Whitney, 1828-1896, Autobiography (c. 1839-1846), "Life Incidents," Woman's Exponent 9-10 (1880-1882) and "Scenes and Incidents in Nauvoo," Woman's Exponent 11 (1882-83), Whitney, Helen Mar Kimball (1884), Why We Practice Plural Marriage, Salt Lake City: Juvenile Instructor Office, retrieved 2009-09-23.
Is there an online link to Van Wagoner's book? I could not find one myself. You can find links to the above works by checking the reference section of the Helen MAr Kimball Wikipedia page.
The thumbnail on this video isn't doing you any favors.
@Jehoshaphat Jones It indicates that the propaganda has already worked, sadly.
I am the great great great grandson of a polygamous marriage. So as long as they, Abraham and Margaret were happy and gave birth to my great great grandmother Mary Ann who gave birth to my great grandmother Margaret who gave birth to my grandmother Marion who gave birth to my mother Shirley who gave birth to me❤ all is good with polygamy in my world
how else are u supposed to incentivize a hero? 🙉
What a story - how can such a revered and special” prophet “ be influenced by others to marry polygamously ? And hand out precious gold plates when instructed by God the creator of heaven and earth who he claims to have seen Not to ? And to say that he would be harmed by celestial beings if a woman did not marry him? Sorry creepy weird and liar
Lie, Mormos didn't stop practicing poligamy in 1890. Wilford Woodruff, the dude who signed the Manifest, still practiced poligamy well pass the release of that document. even sealed himself to at least one kid vicariously in the temple. Wich takes me to my next point: Rusty Nelson is sealed to his two wifes, even my own grandpa was sealed to three of his wives befored he passed away. I bet he's having a hell of a time in the spirti world right now!
Honestly, i think it was stupid. I hope you did more research for your video.
It was stupid, especially in our 2024 eyes. I bet washing in a dirty river, or eating unleavened bread, or even a birthright being only for the firstborn seems stupid to those alive in the time and especially to us… it doesn’t make it NOT commanded by God to his faithful people.
Fake his wife name was Emma
14…….she didn’t look a day over 60
I know that, because of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross that I will have eternal life in heaven. God died on the cross for our sins and eternal life is a gift of grace. We do not need to do all we can do and be uncertain if it is enough.
We can all have eternal life if we are baptized, have faith and repent for our sins. Period! God did all the work for us. We only need to love Him and be faithful!
@Jehoshaphat Jones amen
Good Lord, literally.
Believe what you want, but what done is done, and the facts don’t make it anymore correct or forgivable. Even if the person involved thought it was okay.
This explanation doesn’t make anything better.
There is a lot of well-documented events in the doctrine and covenants and The Book of Mormon that really can not be interpreted any other way. Sometimes “white” and “brown” or “dark” are not states of being, but actual physical colors.
You all can believe what you want, but you need to look at your religion’s history and decide if the early apostles and followers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints were doing what was best for anyone, especially a young child.
I can guarantee you I've looked at the history of the Church a lot more carefully than you have and I can also guarantee you that the maker of this video has also.
That’s it. Everybody needs to make there own decisions. If you don’t believe in the church that’s absolutely fine.
@@nirtlocj Thank you for your response. It is not a matter of who knows more. It is a matter of perspective. Joseph Smith might have been a prophet of Jesus Christ, but he wasn’t a role model.
@@timneji indeed, I wish the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints the best, but I think their founders were not good people sometimes. Indicative of the infighting represented in the Doctrine and Covenants. Since when does Jesus Christ tell people how to buy/sell/ and portion out land, or who to send on missions, by name?
Based off of me reading The Book of Mormon , the Doctrine and Covenants, and the book of Abraham. Joseph Smith did not write “The Book of Mormon”. That came from someplace else. The Doctrine and Covenants is what caused my “faith” to sway regarding the beliefs of the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. That and the book of Abraham, which I think was mistranslated.
But I am allowed to believe whatever I want, as well as the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. My opinion doesn’t count when it comes to someone’s faith. They are allowed to do whatever they desire to bring them peace and happiness, as long as they follow the local laws. Joseph Smith also mentioned following the local laws in the Doctrine and Covenants.
Just because he didn't have sex with her as a 14 year old, doesn't mean he wouldn't have it at 16.
Saying that it was to tie the families together is just further proof of pressure on the girl.
The mere implication that it might be saving her and her family a surer ticket to heaven is enough.
Any God that told adults to act that way is a very iffy God...
Thanks David. Great explanation.
Idk why ppl are so shocked and upset by polygamy. Marriage exists to provide a family for children. It doesn't exist for love or romance or whatever-it's to give children (and mothers) a safe, stable place to grow.
This is sheer ignorance. You may want to look into Fanny Alger
@@jungefrau Do you even know who Fanny Alger was? It was a sexual affair that inspired the whole idea of polygamy. Joe tried hiding it as long as he could, but when he couldn’t keep it up any longer he received the “revelation”.
@@jungefrau Also- murder has been practiced all around the world for thousands of years in the name of God as well. Doesn’t make it moral, right or worth defending.
@@jungefrau Ok... so murder, slavery and polygamy can all be justified then with the Bible. Thanks, I think you just proved my point.
@@trevorper your point was about fanny Alger and how smith's affair with her was what precipitated his revelation regarding polygamy. I didn't make your point for you at all.
I told Helen Mar Kimbal, when she was 14, that an angel with a drawn sword would destroy me unless she agreed to marry me. She believed me…
Where is your source for this? Snark is not a substitute for sources. Also, it was Helen's father who convinced her to marry Joseph. Heber C. Kimball was the one who proposed the idea of her marrying Joseph. The idea for the marriage does not seem to originate with Joseph.
No record of that ever happening.
@@richardclark2495 Can be read about in many places.
Official approved Sources:
- Official Church Website
Gospel Topics Essay titled “Plural Marriage in Kirkland and nauvoo”
4 paragraphs under the subtitle “the beginnings of plural marriage in the church” this is clearly discussed with annotations :)
- On FAIR Answers titled: “Did Joseph claim that an angel threatened him with a “drawn sword” or “flaming sword” if a woman refused to marry him.” Much is discussed
- On ensignpeakfoundation titled: “Encouraging Joseph Smith to practise plural marriage: The accounts of the Angel with the Drawn Sword” much is discussed
??? did you read them?
Mormon women are so much more appealing than the average American woman, so LDS polygamy makes total sense to me! 😎
Hey David, do they hide you away in a closet so you don’t read these comments so you keep making these videos? You can’t be the face of this thing and then completely disappear
He makes lots of videos. He seems to check out the comments page for only a week after posting, then moves on to the next weeks page.
@@brettmajeske3525 That's unfortunate. I know there are a lot of people wanting to chat with him directly since these are videos that live a lot longer than a week, and not all of us are seeing them immediately after posting. It seems indicative of other accounts/videos where the comments are completely turned off. I'm at least happy that it's not happening here (or so far).
@@trevorper Well, he isn't being paid to do this and he still has is normal life/activities plus prepare the next video. I am sure it is a matter of timing.
@@brettmajeske3525 I don't doubt that, but feel like these videos are more of a dis-service to society if he can't work in time for responses to his claims. Also, you mentioned that he's around/commenting for a week or so after each video, but I'm having trouble finding him anywhere at any time in the comments. Am I missing them somewhere? He seems to be completely silent...
@@trevorper I am not his personal secretary, I was just commenting that I have seen responses from him, but usually only until the next video. He has often stated that he prefers IM. I take it he is fairly busy between work, Saints Unscripted, his family, plus contributing to Fair Mormon and Book of Mormon Central.
I also think you are misunderstanding his expressed purpose, which is to share his beliefs not debate them.
What about Fanny?
What about Fanny? She was 19 or more likely 20.
@@brettmajeske3525 oh I heard she was 14
@@kolehollis5852she was 20 and her brother and parents got informed prior the sealing
Ephphata Mormons! "open your eyes! And that is scripture - from our Lord Himself!
Joseph Smith married a 14 year old??? which one?? 😂😂
Another rumor debunked.
Islam The Beautiful Religion
( Be Just )
Quran 5:8
'' O you who believe! stand out firmly for God, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the > HATRED OF OTHERS TO YOU < make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear God. For God is well-acquainted with all that ye do. ''
Quran 4:58
'' Indeed, God commands you to render trusts to whom they are due and when you judge between people to judge with justice. Excellent is that which God instructs you. Indeed, God is ever Hearing and Seeing.''
( God's The Rules Of War )
Quran 2:190
'' Fight in the way of God > THOSE WHO FIGHT YOU < but do not transgress. Indeed. God does not like transgressors. ''
Quran 2 :193
'' And fight them on until there is no more oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. ''
Quran 4:90
''.........So if they withdraw from you and cease their hostility and offer you peace, in that case Allah has not granted you permission to fight against them.''
Quran 8:61
''And if they seek peace, then you also seek it, and put your trust in God. He is the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.''
( Stand Up For Justice )
Quran 4 :135
'' Ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against > YOURSELVES < or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.''
( Who Are The Good Human Beings? )
Quran 2.177
'' Righteousness is "NOT" that you turn your faces ( in worship ) toward the east or the west but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in God, the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth,> IN SPITE OF LOVE FOR IT,< to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for > freeing slaves < [and who] establishes prayer and gives charity; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous. ''
( Freedom To Believe And To Reject )
Quran 2:256
'' Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error ''
Quran 10:99
'' And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed > all of them entirely < Then would you compel the people in order that they become believers? ''
( Tolerance For Other Religions )
Quran 109: 1- 6
Say,"O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshipers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshiper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshipers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."
( Protection for Idol Worshiper )
Quran 9:6
"And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are people who do not know. "
Quran16:125
“Call people to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good teaching, and argue with them in the most courteous way”
Quran7:199 “Be tolerant....”
( Friendship With Non Muslims )
Quran 60:8
'' God does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, God loves those who act justly. ''
( Do Christians And Jews and "OTHER" non-Muslims go to Heaven? )
Quran 2:62
'' Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,-> ANY { On Judgement Day }
( According to the Quran Christians and Jews worship TRUE God )
(Quran 3:113-114)
'' Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book ( Christians and Jews ) are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.''
Note: According to the Quran that Jesus is not God nevertheless Christians still worship one '' TRUE '' God.
( > Allah < Is The Protector Of Monasteries, Churches, Synagogues And The Mosques )
Quran 22:40
[They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.
( Why Are There So Many Different Religions In The World ? )
Quran 5 48
''...... If God wanted He could have made all of you a > single nation < But He willed otherwise in order to test you in what He has given you;(scriptures) therefore try to excel one another in good deeds. Ultimately you all shall return to God; then He will show you the truth of those matters in which you > DISPUTE submission < to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (Salvation)''
My explanation of above verse
Islam mean > submission < to God
( The above verse saying is that God will not accept a religion from the > MUSLIM < and the Non-Muslims but total > submission < to God.)
Question: How Can Muslim And the > Non-Muslim < > submit < to the God?
Answer: Be kind to other human beings and Do not lie, Do not steal, Do not cheat, Do not hurt others, Do not be prideful and Do the charity work.
( God Allow Muslims To Marry And Eat Food From the Christian And Jew And Vice Versa )
Quran 5;5
''This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture ( Christian and Jew) is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And [lawful in marriage are] chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture ( Christian and Jew) before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking [secret] lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.''
( Kindness Toward Atheists / > APOSTATE < )
Quran 60:8
'' As for such [ of the unbelievers ( atheist) ] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, > Allah < does not forbid you to show them > kindness < and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, Allah loves those who act equitably. ''
( All The Terrorists / Killers Will Enter Hell Fire )
Quran 5:32
"......Whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely......"
( Turned Your Enemies Into Your Awesome Friends )
Quran 41:34
"The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one which is better, then lo! he, between whom and thee there was enmity (will become) as though he was a bosom friend."
( The Husband and The Wife Are > Protecting Friends < One Of Another )
Quran 9:71
''And the believers, men and women, are > Protecting Friends < one of another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey God and His messenger. As for these, God will have mercy on them. Lo! God is Mighty, Wise.''
Quran16:97
“To whoever, male or female, does good deeds and has faith, We shall give a good life and reward them according to the best of their actions.
Quran 30:21
“And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquility in them; and He placed between you > affection and mercy { Love }
The Prophet Muhammad said, “The best among you is the best to his wife”
( Human Are One Big family )
Quran 49:13
" O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)."
( All The Racist People Will Enter Hellfire )
Quran 30:22
"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the diversity of your languages and your colors. Indeed in that are signs for those of knowledge."
My conclusion:
The > BASIC < message of God to the human is that '' YOU '' believe in God and be kind to other human beings / > animals < and in the > RETURNED < God will > REWARD < you with a new life in Paradise.
* The Quran ONLY guides you how to become a good human being "Nothing Else".
* You are a good human being or a bad human being that is YOUR choice.
* No one can force you to become a good human being.
* You MUST work HARD to become a good human being.
* Why should ''YOU'' do good deeds and avoid bad deeds?
* Do Good - it's for You. Do Bad - It's against you.
* '' YOUR'' life is a TEST from God that you will choose to do either Good or Bad.
* Find the excuse to help others and forgive others NOT the other way around.
* '' YOUR '' final destination is either Hell or Heaven.
* So work HARD toward choice of YOUR destination.
Quran 17:7
'' If you do good, you will do so for your own good. And if you do evil, it will be to your own loss.''
/
Ok Random
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Joseph Smith only had one wife and only fought against polygamy
How’s fantasyland this time of year?
Joseph Smith had between 30 and 40 wives. 11 were already married to other living men, some of whom Joseph had sent away on missions. Several were teenagers while he was in his late 30s.
@@curelom one of those already married to a man was Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner. She was supremely hesitant at first. But after she saw the angel (according to her own affidavit), she went through with it.
Sealing, eternal marriages and levels of heaven are a manmade thing. Jesus NEVER taught these things! And He is God.
The new testament teaches it.
@@ineedoff1 The bible? Then show me the scripture that tells us this.
@@windywithachanceofsunshine5219 glory of sun , moon, stars,
Yada Yada
@@ineedoff1 sigh... when are y’all actually going to read your Bible instead of continuing to pull that verse totally and completely out of context.
@@ineedoff1 That's all you've got? Are you kidding me?That explains nothing!
The church is running out of mental gymnastics. Joseph Smith was a mess.
Yo..don’t eva disrespect me by marrying some girl selling Samoa cookies..you herd?